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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two airbuds who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is the fabulous Kara Goucher. She is

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Speaker 2: an accomplished long distance runner and she is the author

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Speaker 2: of a book called The Longest Race, which has just

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Speaker 2: come out. She's going to talk to us about how

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Speaker 2: she got her start running, how she became a professional athlete,

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Speaker 2: and why it was a dream come true when Nike

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Speaker 2: called inviting her to join the Nike organ Project with

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Speaker 2: iconic coach Alberto Salazar. It was like getting an invitation

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Speaker 2: to Hogwarts, but for running.

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Speaker 1: She'll talk to us about how her coach was effective

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Speaker 1: at first using unconventional methods to improve her running, including

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Speaker 1: some that were later widely accepted as effective, but how

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Speaker 1: those methods became more controlling and inappropriate over time, ultimately

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Speaker 1: leading her to become a whistleblower about what she experienced.

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Speaker 2: Plus the dark contrast she saw when she actually experienced

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Speaker 2: a healthy relationship with a coach. And I think that

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Speaker 2: stuff is always important to mention what a healthy dynamic

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Speaker 2: can look like. Healthy leadership, healthy leadership, healthy coaching. Healthy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's not that rare. I stopped that. I

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Speaker 2: think it's out there. I think it's out there before

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Speaker 2: we dive in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be more positive. It's probably more rare to

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Speaker 1: have it be super narcissistic and abusive.

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Speaker 2: I think that is probably more rare. It's just those

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Speaker 2: are the stories that obviously capture our attention more.

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Speaker 1: I agree, great reframe, Lola.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. What's your culties? Saying Megan, it's.

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Speaker 1: Sad, but I'm just going to go for it. Okay, Okay.

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Speaker 1: There's a church in Kenya called the Good News International Church,

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Speaker 1: not good news coming out of it. Right now, another

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Speaker 1: forty six people were just found dead there. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like a oh my gosh, Jonestown type of thing

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Speaker 1: where they're starving themselves to meet Jesus. So not quite

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Speaker 1: sure what the total body count has come to now,

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Speaker 1: but it's a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: There's an article today I see that says, now there's

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Speaker 2: fifty eight.

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Speaker 1: That is so horrible, I know, and it's not really

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Speaker 1: getting any publicity, which is odd.

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Speaker 2: But CNN actually posted it today, so that's good at least.

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Speaker 1: So fifty eight you said, fifty.

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Speaker 2: Eight so far. Yeah, this is like devastating mass graves

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Speaker 2: linked to religious cult whose followers allegedly starve themselves to

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Speaker 2: get to heaven. Ah, that's so awful. I like can't

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Speaker 2: even wrap my head around it. I know, the fact

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Speaker 2: that that still is happening, you know, like it it

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Speaker 2: feels like the mass death version of Colts is a

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Speaker 2: thing of the past, but it just isn't. And that

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Speaker 2: is so fucking horrific.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really bad.

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Speaker 2: Do we know what's happening with like who the leader

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Speaker 2: is or what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Well, the leader turned himself into the police, so hopefully

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Speaker 1: that will be the end of it, but it sounds

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Speaker 1: like there might be more people involved, so.

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Speaker 4: We shall see.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what it would take for a leader to

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Speaker 2: turn themselves into the police. Like I wonder if it's

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Speaker 2: like your delusional delusion will no this is working, though,

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Speaker 2: this is working, and then at some point you're like, wait,

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Speaker 2: maybe this isn't working. I would love to know the

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Speaker 2: what's happening exactly totally. Well, that's sad. Thanks for bringing

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Speaker 2: it down, Megan, You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: What about you, Lela, what's the cultiest thing that happened

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Speaker 1: to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Well, not as tragic. Good. My friend was in town

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Speaker 2: for a workshop that is a workshop for like, you know,

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Speaker 2: Hollywood folk. And I've heard about this workshop before. It's

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Speaker 2: run by a person I will not name their gender

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Speaker 2: because I know a lot of people really like this person. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's call them Casey. Let's say this unnamed gender person

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Speaker 2: is Casey. Casey runs a home Hollywood workshop that I've

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Speaker 2: heard very culty stories about how they will like present

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Speaker 2: an unanswerable, like vague question and when people answer in

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Speaker 2: a normal way, they're like, you're not getting it, and

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Speaker 2: they like make them they like push them until they

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Speaker 2: get the right answer. I'm saying this in quotation works.

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Speaker 2: It's not like a black and white thing where like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Casey's an abuser, but there are people who have felt

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable and pushed a little too hard and paying a

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Speaker 2: lot of money, some over a long period of time

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Speaker 2: to get the wisdom from Casey. That said, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I was talking about with

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Speaker 2: my friend who attended this workshop was like, Casey has

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Speaker 2: been very effective. Casey has very successful clients. Casey is

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Speaker 2: like getting at story in a way that is like

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Speaker 2: clicking for people when other frameworks maybe didn't click for them.

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Speaker 2: So it can be very difficult when there's not explicit

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Speaker 2: abuse happening and the method is working for people, it

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Speaker 2: can be hard to know where that line is. I think,

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Speaker 2: of course, but some of the exercises that they do,

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Speaker 2: I was just like, stoh, but this is like out

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Speaker 2: of the cult playbook?

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Speaker 1: Is it an acting workshop?

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Speaker 2: It's like acting and directing and writing and you know,

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Speaker 2: like just general sort of storytelling. I see they have

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Speaker 2: like different like versions of it or whatever. Also, it

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Speaker 2: sounds like Casey is maybe like a full blown narcissist,

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Speaker 2: But has also implemented some reform, presumably because they got

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Speaker 2: some complaints. So it's like, okay, if they are implementing

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Speaker 2: reform in the like key ways, like how you know

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Speaker 2: that's good?

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Speaker 1: You know, well, did she have a good experience?

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Speaker 2: Mixed? Okay, mixed? Yeah, because like again it's like my friend,

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Speaker 2: like something's clicked for my friend, but then other things,

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Speaker 2: you know, she's like, well, Casey, Casey is a questionable

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Speaker 2: is of questionable character potentially, and was doing some sort

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Speaker 2: of like very culty things, but also like I did

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Speaker 2: get value out of it.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting because that's the perfect thing to lead

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Speaker 1: into today's interview, where it's like if this is your dream,

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Speaker 1: if something's your dream, if you want to be the

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Speaker 1: best at it, what do you do if you're getting

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Speaker 1: results from a coach or from a teacher?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: Exactly?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's exactly what Cayla talks to us about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the things that you know comes

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Speaker 2: up is like, well, colts do get results. I mean

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this that Casey is a cult leader.

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Speaker 2: I am not saying that. I'm just saying like there

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Speaker 2: are just elements there. Yeah, that emanate cultiness. But like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to fully it's not like a full

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Speaker 2: fledged cult, that's not what's happening. But there are just

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Speaker 2: enough elements happening that I'm like, eh, I wouldn't I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't go. I wouldn't spend my money on that, and

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Speaker 2: keep spending my money on that, right, But yeah, the

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Speaker 2: thing about cults is that they work. They're meeting and eat,

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Speaker 2: they're doing something. They're helping yea, And that is the

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Speaker 2: thing people forget so much at the time, Like that's

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Speaker 2: how people get in because there's great people there and

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Speaker 2: they're learning valuable information or it seems like it's helping

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Speaker 2: with whatever problem that they have. Like no one is

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Speaker 2: dumb for going to Casey's workshops, you know, like it

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Speaker 2: makes sense. You see Casey's clients, You're like, they're really successful.

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Speaker 2: My friends who are super smart, had an amazing time

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Speaker 2: and learned a lot. Like, of course you're gonna go.

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Speaker 2: You can afford it, you know, I would, but I'm

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Speaker 2: not paying for that. But but if I had endless money,

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Speaker 2: you know, I would probably want to try it, just

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Speaker 2: simply have curiosity and probably to talk about it on

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Speaker 2: this podcast.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, soon enough.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait. All right, that's it for me.

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Speaker 1: All right, well shall we talk to her?

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. So you're trying to find a cause

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Speaker 2: for your symptoms, say, for example, your exma is having

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Speaker 2: a party on your arms all of a sudden, and

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Speaker 2: you don't know why, so you stumble down a TikTok

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole full of questionable advice from so called expert.

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Speaker 2: There are better ways to get the answers you want

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Speaker 2: and the care you deserve from trusted professionals and not

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Speaker 2: random people on the internet. ZocDoc helps you find expert

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Speaker 2: doctors and medical professionals that specialize in the care you

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Speaker 2: need and deliver the type of experience you want. Zoctoc

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Speaker 2: is the only free app that lets you find and

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Speaker 2: book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are

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Speaker 2: available when you need them, and treat almost every condition

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Speaker 2: under the sun. Surprise twists might work for podcasts, but

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Speaker 2: maybe not for medical care. With zoctoc, there are no

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Speaker 2: alarms and no surprises. Choose from thousands of patient review

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Speaker 2: doctors and specialists, browse doctor profiles, upload and verify your

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Speaker 2: insurance information, and get the care you need. Go to

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Speaker 2: ZocDoc dot com, slash trust me and download the ZocDoc

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Speaker 2: app for free. Then find and book a top rated

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Speaker 2: doctor today. Many are available within twenty four hours. That's

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Speaker 2: ZocDoc dot com, slash trust me, ZocDoc dot com slash

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Speaker 2: trust mecome Carri Goucher to trust me. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining.

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Speaker 4: Us, Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: You are a long distance runner. You were the ten

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Speaker 2: thousand meter silver medallist at the two thousand and seven

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Speaker 2: World Championships in Athletics and represented the USA at the

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight Beijing Olympics in twenty twelve, London

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Speaker 2: Olympics major marathon debut in two thousand and eight, and

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Speaker 2: finished third the following year at the Boston Marathon. Is

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Speaker 2: that all the highlights?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's pretty much.

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Speaker 2: It sounds amazing, amazing. We both read your book and

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Speaker 2: absolutely loved it. It's fascinating and heart striding and so

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Speaker 2: inspiring what you've been able to accomplish despite everything that

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Speaker 2: you've been through. So start us at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: your journey and tell us how you realize that you

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Speaker 2: loved running.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I started running.

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Speaker 3: Actually, my first time I ran was when I was

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Speaker 3: six years old, my grandpa took me to a race.

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Speaker 3: My grandpa was a lifelong runner. He never really raced,

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Speaker 3: but he just loved the movement of running and he

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Speaker 3: made it. He felt like it made his mind clear,

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Speaker 3: his day was better. So he took me to my

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Speaker 3: first event and it was just the two of us,

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Speaker 3: so that felt really special. And then I just kept running.

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Speaker 3: I would run little races here and there, and then

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Speaker 3: in middle school, I officially joined a running team and

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Speaker 3: I loved it right away.

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Speaker 4: I loved it so much.

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Speaker 3: I loved running, but I also loved the friendships and

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Speaker 3: just the whole culture around it.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your babysitter telling you to

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Speaker 1: pass her because I love it?

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Speaker 2: That's just sweet. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in seventh grade, I ran for my middle school

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Speaker 3: in the fall, but then I got invited to run

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Speaker 3: for the high school in the spring. So I was

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Speaker 3: with this little group of girls that we were like

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Speaker 3: so young, and we walked down the hill from middle

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Speaker 3: school to the high school and we ran for the

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Speaker 3: high school track team. And one of my first races

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Speaker 3: for my high school, I was running and I was

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Speaker 3: my babysitter. My old babysitter was right in front of me,

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Speaker 3: and I just felt like I couldn't pass her. I

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Speaker 3: felt like, like three years ago, she was tucking me

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Speaker 3: in bed. No, I can't pass her in this race.

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Speaker 3: But she was awesome and she was like, care just

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Speaker 3: pass me, And even afterwards she was like, don't be

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Speaker 3: afraid to win, don't be afraid to beat me, you know,

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, early on, I like that was a

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Speaker 3: great lesson of being competitive. There's nothing wrong with being competitive,

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Speaker 3: but also how to treat other people, you know, Like

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Speaker 3: later on, my little sister was shadowing me and I

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Speaker 3: actually had to tell her to pass me.

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Speaker 4: So I learned early on you got to let those

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Speaker 4: things go.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the most shocking part is that

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Speaker 1: you guys have enough breath to talk to each other.

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Speaker 2: I would not I even run one block. No, I

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Speaker 2: don't know how you do it. And tell us about

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Speaker 2: your how you ended up with your partner who is

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Speaker 2: also a runner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I went to the University of Colorado on a

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Speaker 3: track scholarship and he was also at the University of Colorado.

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Speaker 3: I had briefly met him in high school at this

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Speaker 3: national high school cross country championship, but he does not

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Speaker 3: remember meeting me or anything.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: But I went to Colorado and he was there, and

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Speaker 3: he was a really really great athlete. In fact, he

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Speaker 3: made an Olympic team in two thousand as well, and

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Speaker 3: you know, we're just kind of sort of friends, loose friends.

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Speaker 3: And then when he graduated, he came back and was

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Speaker 3: still training full time. It's a professional athlete, and we

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Speaker 3: just started to hang out a little bit more. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll be married twenty two years this fall, which makes

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Speaker 3: me feel really old.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, amazing though. I mean, I love how much

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Speaker 2: of your book embodies this like non competitive just like

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Speaker 2: supportive spirit with the people in your life and also

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Speaker 2: just other runners that you meet. It's like it's very

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Speaker 2: inspiring because I feel like there's a lot of the

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Speaker 2: opposite of that in the entertainment industry.

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Speaker 1: Yes, oh, I.

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Speaker 3: Bet no, and I have experience that in the running

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Speaker 3: industry as well. But I was lucky to have my

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Speaker 3: husband who is super supportive, my family that was always

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Speaker 3: lifting me up, and I typically had teammates.

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Speaker 4: That also were like that. It's a tough sport.

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Speaker 3: Just I'm sure as the entertainment industry, where you know,

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Speaker 3: people want to protect their little sliver but I think

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Speaker 3: we've learned over time that someone else's success doesn't dim

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Speaker 3: your success. And I was really lucky to have cool

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Speaker 3: people in my life that felt that way.

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Speaker 2: That's very cool. So both of you, you're this running

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Speaker 2: power couple and you get involved with Nike. Tell us

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Speaker 2: about how that started.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I had signed a contract with Nike right

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Speaker 3: out of college. My husband actually had a different sponsor,

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Speaker 3: but then he also switched to Nike. And in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and four we got invited to come out to

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Speaker 3: check out the Nike organ Project, which was kind of

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Speaker 3: revolutionary at the time. It was professionalizing running distance running specifically,

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Speaker 3: and to be completely honest, they just wanted my husband.

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Speaker 3: It was a male only team and they just wanted him.

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Speaker 3: You know, they had had some success, but they had

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Speaker 3: never had like a superstar joined the team, and he

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Speaker 3: was a superstar in the distance running world at that time.

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Speaker 3: And so we went out to visit and it was

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Speaker 3: kind of like, and we'll help you too, But it

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Speaker 3: seemed like a huge opportunity. I felt lucky that it

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Speaker 3: would be the first.

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Speaker 4: Woman to join.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was based out of the Nike campus.

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Speaker 3: We'd be training on the Nike campus, using all the

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Speaker 3: facilities there.

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Speaker 4: We would have all.

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Speaker 3: The medical we needed with you know, massage therapists, PT

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Speaker 3: and all sorts of equipment and technology.

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Speaker 4: We would be ahead of the.

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Speaker 3: Game in every sense of the word. We'd have a

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Speaker 3: budget to travel and train high it altitude, and you know,

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Speaker 3: we went on this visit and we kind of felt like,

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Speaker 3: if we passed this up, we're crazy.

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Speaker 4: Especially Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like everything you needed to be successful.

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Speaker 3: And the coach at the time, Alberta Salzar, said, just

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Speaker 3: come for six months and don't sell your house. If

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Speaker 3: you hate it, you can go back home. So it

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Speaker 3: really was a no brainer. But we felt lucky to

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Speaker 3: be invited.

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Speaker 1: You said it was like getting an invitation from Hogwarts,

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Speaker 1: which it really sounds like that. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about some of the weird machines that they had there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, for instance, the team at the time was

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Speaker 3: living in a house that was simulated to be at altitude,

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Speaker 3: So Portland, Oregon is not at altitude, but.

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Speaker 4: The house was sealed.

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Speaker 3: So with less oxygenated air pumped into every room, so

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Speaker 3: it was like you were living in the mountains even

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Speaker 3: though you were just in Portland.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: They also had underwater treadmills, like a treadmill underwater, so

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Speaker 3: you could run when you were injured and keep running

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Speaker 3: but not have pounding. They eventually had They were the

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Speaker 3: first team to ever get an alter G treadmill, which

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Speaker 3: is an anti gravity treadmill, which now you'll see every

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Speaker 3: single NFL, NBA team has one, but we were actually

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Speaker 3: the first group to have one. It kind of takes

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Speaker 3: body weight off so you can keep running. So it

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Speaker 3: was just mind blowing stuff. And for me, I had

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Speaker 3: been injured for a long time and I felt like, wow,

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Speaker 3: I mean everything here will keep me healthy and maybe

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Speaker 3: it could actually achieve some of the dreams that I

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Speaker 3: had for myself.

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Speaker 2: Right for our non athletic folks, I would love to

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Speaker 2: just like set up a little bit of what the

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Speaker 2: culture of running is like, Like, how is Nike viewed,

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Speaker 2: how are the coaches viewed, how much of the game

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Speaker 2: is meant? Like, what is different about this experience versus

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Speaker 2: being a runner before? Obviously besides the gadgetry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean, big picture, Nike is the number

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Speaker 3: one supporter of track and field in the world, and

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Speaker 3: so they are the biggest funder of our governing body,

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Speaker 3: which is the USA Track and Field. They're the biggest

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Speaker 3: supporter of that. So being a Nike athlete is helpful

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Speaker 3: right away because you can get into certain meats. Some

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Speaker 3: of the biggest meats in the world are sponsored by Nike.

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Speaker 3: If you're a Nike athlete, you're going to get in

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Speaker 3: or someone who's sponsored by Adidas, even if that person

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Speaker 3: might be faster than you. So a lot more opportunity

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Speaker 3: when you are a Nike athlete. But typically how it

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Speaker 3: works is you get a shoe sponsorship and like I said,

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Speaker 3: I signed with Nike, and so it's not like an

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Speaker 3: NBA contractor a bel contract or anything like that. But

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Speaker 3: you have a yearly salary and then typically there's bonuses

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Speaker 3: built in based on performance, bonuses for metals or podiums,

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Speaker 3: things like that. And then you also negotiate with the

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Speaker 3: competitions you're going to so.

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Speaker 4: They will pay you as well if you're good.

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Speaker 3: Like the beginning of my career, I had to beg

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Speaker 3: and scrape to get into every race I did. Like literally,

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Speaker 3: I didn't get into a race unless my husband was running.

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Speaker 3: It was like we want you, your wife can run.

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Speaker 3: But then later on, as you kind of rise in

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Speaker 3: the ranks. You have contracts with the competitions as well, So.

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Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of like alternatives to making money

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Speaker 2: unless you have a contract with them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean really, the shoe contract is your lifeline.

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Speaker 3: And then and then again you'll make money from different

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Speaker 3: competitions as you get better, but the shoe contract is

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Speaker 3: the big thing. Right.

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Speaker 2: This was a totally new project, right. Had this been

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Speaker 2: a thing before?

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Speaker 3: No, So they had started the Nike organ Project at

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Speaker 3: the end of two thousand to sort of bring back

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Speaker 3: distance running to the United States because.

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Speaker 4: We really were in a drought, like we would.

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Speaker 3: Go to the Olympics but just get annihilated, or at

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Speaker 3: the major marathons, we would celebrate if someone got eighth

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Speaker 3: or ninth, and so the whole idea was, let's give

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Speaker 3: these athletes everything they need and let's bring distance running

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Speaker 3: back to the forefront in America. And so nothing like

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Speaker 3: that was going on, you know, and so.

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Speaker 4: It was started.

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Speaker 3: Basically, the first team got together in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 3: and it was hard to convince people to join because

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Speaker 3: it was just like, join this project, right, But then

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Speaker 3: they had had some success In two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: Dan Brown made the Olympic team in both the ten

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Speaker 3: thousand and the marathon. He hadn't made that shift to

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Speaker 3: the international level, but he was making Olympic teams. And

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Speaker 3: so we came in in two thousand and four where

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Speaker 3: the project was still relatively new, but they were really

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Speaker 3: trying to get a little bit higher caliber athletes.

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Speaker 1: And the project was getting some traction because it was

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Speaker 1: coached by a man named Alberto Correct. Can you tell us, yes,

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Speaker 1: a little bit about about Alberto.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Alberto Salzar was like this very famous iconic runner

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Speaker 3: in the distance world. He won the New York City

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Speaker 3: Marathon three times, he won the Boston Marathon. He was

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Speaker 3: known for racing all out, collapsing at the end, like

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Speaker 3: he had his rights read once because he died at

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Speaker 3: the finish line, and at Nike they had, yeah, like

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Speaker 3: he had to go to the hospital that like a

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Speaker 3: priest read his rights and he survived, okay. But he

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Speaker 3: was known as just like just the ultimate and toughness,

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Speaker 3: and so he was the coach and he was the

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Speaker 3: one that really wanted to bring distance running back, and

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Speaker 3: so yeah, he was the big guy. And you know,

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Speaker 3: as I joined the team and got to know his world,

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Speaker 3: I saw the influence in power he had. I remember

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Speaker 3: we got in a cab in Europe and the cab

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Speaker 3: driver started freaking out because Alberto.

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Speaker 4: Salzar was in his cab.

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Speaker 3: But also at the Nike campus, they have buildings and

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Speaker 3: they're all named after iconic athletes, and there was an

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Speaker 3: Alberto Sealzar building on the Nike camp.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow.

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Speaker 1: And this is the man who came and picked you

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Speaker 1: guys up at the airport when you landed to check

427
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Speaker 1: out the Organ Project for the first time. So you're

428
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Speaker 1: really like.

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Speaker 2: He's already a legend in your mind. You're like, why

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Speaker 2: is this icon driving us around?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he seems so humble and he like really is

432
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Speaker 3: very charismatic, and when he talks to you, he's like

433
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 3: focused in on you, and you feel like you are

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Speaker 3: really important. And he had this little world and you

435
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 3: got to be in it, you know, and you felt

436
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 3: special and he just had a way of really pulling

437
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 3: you in and feeling like you really really mattered.

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Speaker 1: Well, he started calling you family too, right, Yes.

439
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean it was like the Nike family, the

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Speaker 3: Organ Project family. I mean that language was used right away.

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Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people use that language and

442
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,159
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443
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444
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468
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Speaker 2: not available in all states and situations. So when you joined,

469
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: it's you, it's your Adam. Is your husband's name, yes, right, Adam?

470
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: You Adam Alberto. And then there's a college runner named Galen.

471
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 2: And were there any other women around?

472
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 4: Uh?

473
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: No.

474
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 3: There was a woman who joined for a little bit.

475
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 3: She came straight from high school, but she has been

476
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 3: very open that she was struggling with a lot of

477
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 3: health issues, and so I would run with her occasionally,

478
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 3: but I mean I was by myself most of the time.

479
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 3: Then there was another woman, Amy Begley, who joined in

480
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,159
Speaker 3: two thousand and seven, but again we had some training

481
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: that was together. She didn't run the marathon though, So

482
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,360
Speaker 3: when I moved to the marathon again, I was alone.

483
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 2: And so for those first three years, you're living in

484
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,479
Speaker 2: this like boys club.

485
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, I was like traveling with the boys.

486
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 3: I was living in condos with the boys, and I

487
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 3: had never experienced that. You know, I was like from

488
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: a family of all girls, and I'm not like super

489
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 3: proud of how I acted, because I acted differently than

490
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 3: who I really am to fit in. Like, I laughed

491
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: off a lot of stuff. I told my own dirty jokes.

492
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: I yeah, I just wanted to fit in. I was like,

493
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: this is a huge opportunity. I want to fit in.

494
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 3: I don't want to be the one that that spoils it.

495
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 4: Totally.

496
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 2: I mean I have done that so many times. I

497
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 2: can't even tell you. It's hard not to. It's hard

498
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: not to when you're the only one in the room

499
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: who can speak for that group, you know, yeah.

500
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 4: Totally, you just have to laugh.

501
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 3: Like I laughed so many things off. And also that

502
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: just made it go by quicker, right, Like it's easier

503
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 3: to just laugh and be like, oh, yeah, that's so,

504
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 3: that's so true than to be like, actually.

505
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 4: That's really offensive, and then it becomes a huge thing.

506
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I did start doing, and my I got

507
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 2: so much shit for it, and then I thought, it's

508
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: really annoying. So but that's okay. We can be annoying. So,

509
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like, as a non sports person,

510
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: my impression of coaches and being an a list athlete

511
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: or whatever just for movies are there's some coach who's

512
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: going to push you so hard and he's going to

513
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: push you to your limits and you're gonna hate him,

514
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: but it's gonna work. And I feel like the way

515
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: that Alberto kind of seemed at first is sort of

516
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 2: that stereotype where he's like he's got these unconventional methods,

517
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 2: he's pressuring everyone a lot, but it works, he gets results.

518
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: Can you talk about how it seemed to be effective

519
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: at first?

520
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean people were running well, and myself included,

521
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 3: so it was like, you know, there were some things

522
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 3: that I thought were unusual, but I mean, nobody's perfect

523
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: and everyone's crushing it. And Adam's running fast and I'm

524
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 3: getting healthy and running fast, and Galen's running really well,

525
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 3: and you know he's just quirky. I mean, you could

526
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 3: just excuse everything away. And also like he filled this

527
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 3: role of a like a father figure to me. My

528
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 3: father had died a week before my fourth birthday, and

529
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 3: he would use the language of like I love you,

530
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 3: like he would email me kara da da da da,

531
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: I want you to do this, love you, see you tomorrow,

532
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 3: and so that language became really normalized, which looking back,

533
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 3: I've had a lot of coaches and I wouldn't be like,

534
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 3: I love you, but that's how we talk to each other.

535
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: So looking back, that was weird. But yeah, like everyone

536
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 3: was running well. I felt like I was so lucky

537
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: to be there. I felt like I had this incredible,

538
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 3: you know, mentor and father figure from Alberto, and anything

539
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 3: that seemed awkward or that made me a little uncomfortable,

540
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 3: I just kind of like skirted away because I didn't

541
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 3: want to lose what I had been there.

542
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: Right, I was just going to say, one of the

543
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: things that you guys got was a lot of massages,

544
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: and Alberto would actually jump in and give them sometimes,

545
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: which it also just seems like, oh my god, he's

546
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: so helpful. Of course, this turns weird later, but in

547
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: the beginning, it's like, wow, what a great guy.

548
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it was weird. I will say,

549
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 3: like my husband and I were like, that's weird. I

550
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 3: mean he would just people just lay down on the

551
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 3: floor of the table. He'd take their shorts just.

552
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 4: Tuck them up. I mean you could see.

553
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 3: The butts were exposed, and he would just work on people.

554
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 3: And you know, at first we were like, oh, that's

555
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 3: a little bit weird. But nobody else said it was weird, and.

556
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 4: And then it was exactly that.

557
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: I was like, he cares so much, he's even willing

558
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: to like get in and do the dirty work and

559
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 3: give us theages, and and that way when we travel

560
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: if the massage therapists can't be there like we have

561
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 3: Alberto and so things that looking back, I cringe at

562
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: it just it they became normalized, and.

563
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: I could see how it would seem normalized as well

564
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: when he's doing it to the men. It's not like

565
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: he's only trying to massage you. This is just how

566
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: he was with everyone.

567
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, It wasn't like he just yanked my shorts

568
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 3: up right like I saw the boys butts too. And

569
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: so that was another part of like, well why am

570
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 3: I freaking out? Like no one else is freaking out.

571
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 3: So I don't want to be that person that's like

572
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: can we do it somewhere else? Or can you put

573
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: a sheet over me? Like it just everyone else seems fine.

574
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 3: So I don't want to be that person.

575
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like a big thought stopper that he

576
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: had over all of you. Was like he's just old fashioned,

577
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, like that would kind of stop the critical

578
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: thinking a lot. It seems like like he had this. Yeah.

579
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was a hardcore athlete.

580
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: He understands. He's just old fashioned, you know. The height

581
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: of his career was in the eighties. Things were different

582
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 3: than but like it's working and we all get along

583
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: and we're all in this family together, and yeah, just

584
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: anything that seemed weird. And I think I grew up

585
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: being really good at this. Like my dad died when

586
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 3: I was really young, and it definitely was a source

587
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: of pain for me, but I would just like put

588
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 3: it in a box and put it away. It was

589
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: like I don't want to feel that, and I would

590
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: just like laugh it off.

591
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 4: Or like people would say.

592
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry that your dad died, and I'd be like, well,

593
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: you didn't do it, you know, like stupid stuff to

594
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: just not have to feel it. Yeah, And I think

595
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 3: as athletes we do that too, Like you learn to

596
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: put aside pain because you have to just accept it.

597
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 4: You have to be in the moment.

598
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: You put aside any emotion because you're like, it can't

599
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 3: affect what the overall goal is. And I think that

600
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: I was pretty good at that as a person from

601
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 3: a young age. And so anything that seemed like a

602
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 3: little weird or a little uncomfortable. I would just like

603
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: put it in the box and shove it aside, like

604
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 3: I can't I can't feel that, I can't worry about that.

605
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 4: I'm here to do something. I'm here to do big things.

606
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 2: I would love to hear this story about the aspirin

607
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: and your leg and these like sort of medical overstepping

608
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: moments that he did.

609
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was pretty early on. I had only been

610
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 3: there for a few months and I started to get

611
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 3: really really bad shin pain, and it was it was

612
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: really affecting me.

613
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 4: I couldn't run. We thought I had a stress fracture.

614
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 3: And one day Alberto said, hey, you know, like in

615
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: horse racing they use DMSO and what it does is

616
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: it helps you absorb medication or whatever into your body.

617
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 4: They use it in a horse racing all the time.

618
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 4: It's totally safe.

619
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: And so since your leg is hurting like it just

620
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: needs the inflammation needs to go down, So maybe we

621
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 3: could just crush up aspirin into a powder, put it

622
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: on your leg, put the DMSO on which will help

623
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 3: absorb it, and then we'll wrap your leg and saran

624
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 3: wrap and leave it for a day or so. And

625
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, I mean, like why not. You're

626
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: you're Albert Alberto Salazar and you think this is a

627
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: good idea. And so he crushed it and put it on,

628
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: put the dmso on, and then wrapped the saran wrap

629
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: around it, and it immediately started burning, like it.

630
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 4: Was burning so bad.

631
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: But remember I'd only been there for a few months

632
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: and he was paying attention to me.

633
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, I love it.

634
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: It must be working yet, yes, And I said like,

635
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 3: it's kind of burning, you know, and he was like, well,

636
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 3: that means it's working, you know, it's getting in there. Yeah,

637
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: And then it was hurting more and more, and he

638
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: was like, just leave it on overnight. And when I

639
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: got home, Adam was like, oh my god, take that off.

640
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: Like he cut it off and I had blisters all

641
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: over my shin. So that was one of my first

642
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 3: experiences of We jokingly called him doctor Salazar because he

643
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: had like a solution for everything, Like he was like, well,

644
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: I can fix that, even though you know, like that

645
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: was a bad idea for you know, that took a

646
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: really really long time to heal.

647
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: Like some of his ideas worked, right, some of his

648
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: ideas were helpful, so I can imagine it would be

649
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: very difficult to navigate when something makes you uncomfortable, because

650
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: sometimes maybe that would have been the right thing to do, right, Yeah,

651
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: I yeah, yeah.

652
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: A lot of the things he suggested were weird but

653
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: ended up becoming normal practice, like using the anti gravity treadmill.

654
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: I remember he would cut holes in my husband's and

655
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: gay singlets, really hot meats. Now they make Olympic uniforms

656
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: with holes in the uniforms. So a lot of the

657
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: things he did became commonplace, and a lot of them didn't.

658
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: But it was like, why would you question it?

659
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: Like he's always thinking, he's always tinkering because he cares

660
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: so much, because he wants us to be the best, right,

661
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: So you just went along with it.

662
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: The Mad Scientist is a good reference. I feel like

663
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: that is totally what he seems like in the book. Yes,

664
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: total try this, just like messing with your bodies at

665
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: his whim.

666
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: What other doctors were involved in the organ project? And

667
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: how did you bring is it doctor Brown? And how

668
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: did you bring doctor Brown on board?

669
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: So we did have a couple of other doctors, one

670
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: who would operate on us when we were injured, another

671
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: one who we'd go to when we were sick. They

672
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: have both since passed away, But when my husband and I,

673
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: we were still living in Colorado before we went to

674
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: the Organ Project, and my husband started having some really

675
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: bad fatigues and symptoms, and his doctors suggested he see

676
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: an innercinologist, and our coach at the time had heard

677
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: from a very reliable source through USA Track and Field.

678
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: But there was this doctor named doctor Jeffrey Brown, who

679
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: is the best undercrinologist for athletes in the country. So

680
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: Adam went and saw doctor Jeffrey Brown, and doctor Brown

681
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: diagnosed him with hypothyroidism, which seemed a little weird, but

682
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: it technically runs in family, or it often runs in families,

683
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,239
Speaker 3: and his mom had it, so we didn't question it

684
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: at all.

685
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: Then about a year later I.

686
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: Saw him and he gave me the same diagnosis, and

687
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: again my mom and my grandma have that, so I

688
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 3: was like, oh, it makes total sense. So anyway, we

689
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 3: saw him before we ever met Alberto and again recommended

690
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: by someone from our governing body, but so we when

691
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: we got to the Organ Project, Alberta wanted to know

692
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 3: any doctors we saw, any medications we were on, and

693
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: we told him about doctor Brown, and Alberta went and

694
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: saw doctor Brown and came back and said, Hey, I

695
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: have hypothyroidism too, And I mean I was a little

696
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: bit like, Wow, that's a lot crazy going on.

697
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 4: What are the odds? That's awesome?

698
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: And then Galen went and it turned out Galen had

699
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: it too. And then doctor Brown eventually became part of

700
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: our team staff and would travel to competitions with us,

701
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 3: and like everyone on the team, of coincidences, of all coincidences,

702
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: everyone on the team had hypothyroidism.

703
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: That is so crazy.

704
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: I mean, what is the medicine do you think? Do

705
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: you think it's helping since.

706
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: They're an athletic benefit.

707
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have hyperthyroidismism, doctor, and my mom

708
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: and grandfather also have it. My doctor's not doctor Brown,

709
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: so I know it's common, but I mean a whole

710
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: team probably doesn't have it. So what is the like

711
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: benefit of this?

712
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: So I have a different doctor now, of course, And

713
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: I've talked to her about this a lot, and she says, like,

714
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: the basic synthroid or lavoxyl is probably just no like

715
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 3: because if you take too much it actually affects you negatively, right,

716
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: But there are other medications that can go along with it,

717
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: cidea mel certain like T three, taking other additional hormones

718
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: that really potentially could help performance, and those were prescribed

719
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: to some of my teammates and in fact my coach

720
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: at one point later on, much later my career, asked

721
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: me to take that I would help you lean out

722
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: and feel feel better potentially. So yeah, you can ask

723
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: your doctor.

724
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to shift from synthride to one of

725
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: those so I can speed walk a little bit faster

726
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: sometimes walk. No, I don't move.

727
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: How many steps for on your phone? Me? O?

728
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: No, I took ninety seven steps yesterday.

729
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 4: Oh that's so sad.

730
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: I know.

731
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 4: You need to move a little bit.

732
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know that was rare. That

733
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: was rair.

734
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 4: That was fair.

735
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: It was a sun day.

736
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 4: Okay, listen, that's actually fair.

737
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: And then also this other guy got involved with the team.

738
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: Can you talk to us about Darren Treasure.

739
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

740
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: So I had always sort of battled race anxiety even

741
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: when I was younger, and I had seen a sports

742
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: psychologist when I graduated from college for a while, and

743
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: when we first moved to the organ project, there was a.

744
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 4: Sports psychologist that we would see every once in a

745
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 4: while down in Eugene. We were in Portland, and.

746
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: He was an actual psychologist. But in two thousand and

747
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: seven we brought in this new guy and his name

748
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: was Darren Treasure, and he was introduced to me as

749
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: doctor Darren Treasure, sports psychologist, and you had to see him.

750
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: It was a part of the team, and he was unconventional.

751
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: Like the way he talked to me was really unconventional.

752
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: But at the same time I was running better and better,

753
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: and so again you had to see him anyway. So,

754
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 3: like with anything, I'm usually all in, especially if it's

755
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 3: leading me.

756
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 4: Towards a goal, a fast forward.

757
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: Many many, many many years, I now know that Jaren

758
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: Treasure has a degree in physiology, which is not psychology,

759
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: and times felt, yeah, it's very misrepresented. And you know,

760
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: we would talk to him about our hopes and dreams,

761
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: things that were bothering us. And typically that is a

762
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: patient that's confidential. It's confidential conversation. It can't go anywhere.

763
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: But I would start to some of the things I

764
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 3: would tell Darren in like a space that I think

765
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 3: is safe being open about things that are troubling me

766
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: would come back to me through.

767
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 4: Alberto and also he started to.

768
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: Tell me things about teammates, very very personal things about teammates,

769
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: and so so inappropriate. I can't I know it was

770
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: so inappropriate, but again I just was like, well, he

771
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: trusts me. I mean I was, so I just want

772
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: to like go shake myself back. Then I definitely started

773
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 3: to limit some of the things that I would say

774
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 3: because I didn't want those to come back or anyone

775
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 3: else to hear it. But when he would tell me things,

776
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: I'd be like, oh, well, Darren trust me. And in fact,

777
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: Darren at one point was elevated to performance directors, so

778
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: he would actually be helping decide who was on the

779
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: team and who was.

780
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: It and he's hearing your secrets at the same time.

781
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: Yes, so you can't tell him anything that will affect

782
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: your position.

783
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: I can't.

784
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: So I actually asked for a meeting with him, and

785
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: I remember we met and I said, this is a

786
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: conflict of interest, Like you hear our deepest, darkest concerns

787
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 3: and then you're also selecting. He said, you know, you're

788
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 3: a big girl, and I would never let that affect anything.

789
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 3: And right, you know, just like steamrolled through, Like my

790
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: concern was silly.

791
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 2: The amount of times that the phrase big girl happens

792
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: in the book that he said is so disgusting and

793
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: makes me cringe so hard. Yeah, yeah, you're a big girl.

794
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: What do you shut the fuck up?

795
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: Right?

796
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: And how old were you at this time?

797
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 4: What was in my thirties? Okay, you know, so I

798
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 4: was a woman.

799
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's the he's this authoritative figure over you,

800
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: right regardless.

801
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess when I first met him,

802
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: I was still in my late I was in my

803
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 3: late twenties when I met him, because I met him

804
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: in oh seven, so I was probably twenty eight when

805
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: I first met him, but I was I was a woman.

806
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: But he had a you know, he was Alberto's right

807
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 3: hand man. In fact, it eventually it became that you

808
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: would go to the starting line and Alberta would be there,

809
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 3: but Darren would be the last.

810
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 4: One to talk to you.

811
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 3: Darren would be the last one to speak to you

812
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 3: before you went to the starting line.

813
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: And that's a big deal because that's yeah, that's because.

814
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: You couldn't talk to your family before no race, right.

815
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: No, No, they thought that was a huge distraction. I

816
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: remember I was running the Boston Marathon one year. I

817
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: was very like nervous. I was the favorite twin.

818
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: I was nervous. My whole family was there.

819
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 3: I mean my entire family, both of my sisters, my

820
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: mom and everything, and you know, I was allowed a

821
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: thirty minute time with them in the hotel, and I

822
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: remember the thirty minutes was up and getting a text

823
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: like you need to go back to your room, and

824
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: I felt like I was gonna cry, Like I just

825
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: wanted to hang out with them because like my family

826
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: wanted me to do well, but they loved me no

827
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: matter what. So I liked being around them because it

828
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 3: made me feel like, you know, normal. And in fact,

829
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 3: one year for the Olympic trials, I had to turn

830
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 3: like turn my phone off and leave it in Portland

831
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 3: and I got a burner phone so that I wouldn't

832
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: talk to anyone but the people in our circle.

833
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: This is all Alberto directed, right, He's the way He's.

834
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: Like, it's so culty isolating you from your family. It's

835
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: just textbook. Can you tell us about the text you

836
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: got on the burner phone from the reporter from the

837
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: Organ Times or something like that.

838
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, So in two thousand and eight, we all had

839
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 3: to leave our phone, our cell phones in Portland.

840
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 4: The Olympic trials are down in Eugene.

841
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: We got our burner phones and I got a text

842
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: message from a number I didn't know because the only

843
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: numbers plugged in there were organ project people, and it

844
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: said this is can Go from the Oregonian, like, can

845
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: you give me a few minutes? I'd love to talk

846
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 3: to you. And I texted back, I'm sorry, I'm not

847
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: doing any more interviews until after the competition is over.

848
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 3: And then I got a text back saying, this is Alberto,

849
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 3: good job you passed the test.

850
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: Psycho Cicho psychotic psycho.

851
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 4: Yes, psycho.

852
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 3: At the time, you know, it's just so crazy looking

853
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: back as all these things are. You know, I was like,

854
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: look how dedicated we are, Like we can't even be reached.

855
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well of course, I mean you know better than me.

856
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: But was that not like sort of the part of

857
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: the ethos of athleticism in general, like commit as hard

858
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: as you can and oh, control and control and control.

859
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like that's as an athlete, and especially as a

860
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: professional athlete. It it's like, what do you If you

861
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 3: really want that goal, it has to be your everything.

862
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: And that's how we lived. You know, we didn't see

863
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: our families very much. We never traveled unless it was

864
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: for competitions. We were so in this world and I

865
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: do think as an athlete you have to fully commit,

866
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: but there were they there were definitely things looking back

867
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: that was taking it way too far. But yeah, as

868
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: an athlete, you're like, I'm hardcore, I'm in all the way,

869
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 3: I'm totally committed to this, right.

870
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: Can I just tell you guys something really quickly? This

871
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: is so quick, but this was like a just the thing.

872
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: I was on TikTok the other day and it's like

873
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: you get in the car after playing airbot and it's

874
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: a dad and he's like he was really good, and

875
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: the dad's like he's a dog. Anyway, Okay, you're on

876
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: the team.

877
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 5: Getting here appealing to the non sports Yeah, yeah, audience,

878
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 5: I want to talk about all the different ways in

879
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: which he started to like gradually overstep and overstep and

880
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 5: control and control.

881
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: What were some of the things that looking back, you're like,

882
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: that was when a line was crossed? That was when

883
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 2: a line was crossed?

884
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: Well, definitely those things that we just talked about, like

885
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: not being able to have my own phone to call

886
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: who I want to call at the biggest competition of

887
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 3: my life at that point, or not being able to

888
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 3: see my family.

889
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 4: Who traveled all this way to support me.

890
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: But you know, it was very us against them mentality,

891
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: Like we didn't stay at the meat hotel, we'd stay

892
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: somewhere else. We would travel in these small groups and

893
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 3: we would all live in the same condo.

894
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: There was just so many things and.

895
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: Like like you had to believe in him, you couldn't

896
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 3: question anything. And that's where his relationship with Adam started

897
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: to fizzle, because Adam would start to question things, and

898
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: that was like, you could not do that. You know,

899
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: you had to be all in. You could not question

900
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: a single thing. A lot of just isolation, isolation from

901
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: other athletes, from the people in your lives.

902
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: And then of course I started.

903
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 3: To see things that were weird from like a doping perspective,

904
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 3: like he had to sascerone gel just out in narcondo,

905
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 3: which is totally against the rules.

906
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 4: It cannot be around.

907
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 3: Athletes at all because it's so easy then for the

908
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 3: athlete to just quick swipe it on and get the

909
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: benefit of it without testing positive. There was a bunch

910
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 3: of syringes in our refrigerator at a training camp, and

911
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 3: he told me that they were for allergy shots and

912
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 3: not to be worried. And at the time, anything, any

913
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: explanation he gave me, I believed it because I trusted him,

914
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: you know. I mean he for as much as he

915
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: isolated me for my family, he would call my mom

916
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: and tell her, like I believe I was put into

917
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: her life for a reason, and like I really felt

918
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: like I was supposed to be there and he was

919
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: supposed to coach me.

920
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: And you guys were all testing negative for drugs, like

921
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't like you weren't getting tested for

922
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: illegal drugs. You were, and you weren't showing up positive

923
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: for them. So trusting him seems completely normal, you know.

924
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

925
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was getting drug tested at tun during

926
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: that time, especially after I went to Metal at World Championships.

927
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 3: I would get tested between twenty and twenty four times

928
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 3: a year, and I was always no, you know, was

929
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 3: always good.

930
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 4: So I just wasn't concerned.

931
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: I never had concerns that he might do anything like

932
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 3: that because I don't know, right, he didn't ask me

933
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: to do anything that was illegal, and my test results

934
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 3: are always perfect, and yeah, you know, he and he

935
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: would even talk about like, you know, we would never

936
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: go down that route, like we are going to outwork everybody.

937
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 3: And uh, anytime we would hear rumors about other athletes,

938
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: he would like want us to just shut it down,

939
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: don't talk about that. And so you know, I felt like, Oh,

940
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 3: we represent the good guys.

941
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 2: The way that he would deal with supplements and gels

942
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: and all the thing that reminds me so much of

943
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: how my brother what my brother is an addict. He's

944
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: a recovering addict, but when he is at the height

945
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: of his addiction, he would find so many cheats. He

946
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: was like a freakin pharmacist, seriously, like he would he

947
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: knew how to pass every test, He knew what you

948
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: could combine with, what to make sure that you didn't

949
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: get caught. He knew how to like cover his ass

950
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: in every possible And it sounds like Alberto has that

951
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 2: same sort of again. It's that mad scientist thing of like, oh,

952
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: how can I enhance performance but get away with it?

953
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you guys should have seen like he

954
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: would have supplements batch tested to make sure there was

955
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 3: nothing in there that we would test positive for. But

956
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: I mean some of my antidoping declaration forms. It's embarrassing,

957
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: like I was taking so many supplements, and instead of

958
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 3: just focusing on the fact that I was running well

959
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 3: and I was getting better day by day, month by month,

960
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 3: I was healthy for the first time in years. You know,

961
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 3: I was taking these fistfuls of supplements multiple times a day,

962
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: and you know that did bother me. I think because

963
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 3: I had remembered when I was in college. I qualified

964
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: for the Olympic trials and I made the final and

965
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 3: I was drug tested afterwards, and on my form I

966
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: put nothing because I wasn't taking anything. And I remember

967
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 3: looking over at another US athlete and she had so

968
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: many things she had to ask for a second page,

969
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: and she ended up later testing positive and getting busted.

970
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: And so I remember feeling icky about that, like, oh,

971
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 3: I'm I have all of these things to declare. I

972
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: was confident that I wasn't going to test positive for anything,

973
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: but it still felt icky, like why do Why am

974
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: I taking all of this stuff like fat flushing stuff

975
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: and recovery this, And it just felt icky like I

976
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 3: had kind of lost my way from back when I

977
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 3: was younger.

978
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: Well, you're doing it because you, I mean, you have

979
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: to win in order to make a living, and you

980
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: only have this certain amount of time to do it.

981
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: And also he would kind of get in your head

982
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 1: and tell you like you've gained weight, or you run

983
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: so much quicker when you're smaller. Can you tell us

984
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: a little bit about the body comments, and like weighing

985
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: you guys publicly and stuff.

986
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: He was obsessed with weight, absolutely obsessed.

987
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 3: But the funny thing is like we're supposedly this the

988
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: best team in the world, with the most supplies and

989
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 3: you know, like the most comprehensive program in the world.

990
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: We didn't have a single nutritionist or person reading our

991
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: body composition. It was literally based on what Alberto saw

992
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: when he looked at you wo and he would be like,

993
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 3: you need to lose five pounds without like, without even

994
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 3: stepping on a skill. It's just like, you need to

995
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: lose five pounds. And we would get weighed in at

996
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: the Nike lab, and then there were times where he

997
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: would weigh us like out at the track, like a

998
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 3: like a random way in and it got so much

999
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: where I started weighing myself all the time because I

1000
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 3: didn't want to be caught off guard, you know, when

1001
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: if there was a surprise way in and I was

1002
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 3: like a little heavy.

1003
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 4: I wanted to be sure that I knew what the

1004
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 4: number was going to be.

1005
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 3: I had a teammate and he would literally tell her

1006
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 3: one day she was fat and tell her the next

1007
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 3: day she looked great. I mean, you can't, oh my god,

1008
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: that's actually physically impossible to.

1009
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 4: Lose weight like that.

1010
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 3: But he he based it strictly on the way that

1011
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: you looked, and then he would pull some arbitrary number

1012
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: that he thought you should weigh.

1013
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: You had already dealt with an eating disorder when you

1014
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: were younger.

1015
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, I definitely had an eating user. In college,

1016
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: I became obsessed with leanness. And you know, our sport

1017
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 3: definitely has a problem with eating disorders. I think it's

1018
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: pretty it's modeled at a pretty young age. I first

1019
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 3: learned about eating disorders and running in high school and

1020
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 3: in college. You know, I again, I just I wanted

1021
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: to win in national championship. I looked around, I saw

1022
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 3: what the women were like, what they look like that

1023
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: were winning them, and I went down my own.

1024
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 4: Rabbit hole and.

1025
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 3: Got I don't like we are always like oh I

1026
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 3: got so lean. I mean I looked terrible and you know,

1027
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: I had success, I won some national titles, but then

1028
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: I was injured for a long time afterwards, and so

1029
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: I had already like fought those demons, like I had

1030
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 3: really worked hard to fight those demons. And it definitely

1031
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: brought some of that back, like that fear, that fear.

1032
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 4: Of what the number was going to be on the scale.

1033
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: I would think about it all the time, and like

1034
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 3: when we would travel together, I would think about it.

1035
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 3: When I was eating in front of him, I would

1036
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: think about it, like I'm really hungry, but I don't.

1037
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I would like literally be in our bathroom

1038
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 3: and eating so that he wouldn't see me eating.

1039
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: Wow, it sounds like with Amy, I think that was

1040
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: your teammate's name. Yeah, who He would be like, you're thin,

1041
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: You're fat, You're thin, you're fat. Every day it's like

1042
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: love bombing then taking it away, then love bombing then

1043
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: taking it away. It's just this narcissistic cycle that is

1044
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: so strange. And he would always seem to start a

1045
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: fight with you or something before you would race, Like

1046
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: he'd always cause chaos. What was he doing? Did he

1047
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: not want you guys to win? Or like I guess

1048
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: he did but what is he doing?

1049
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1050
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 3: It was always right before a big competition, everything that

1051
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 3: we had worked on for months and months and months

1052
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: and had accomplished, now is the time to race. And

1053
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: he would always panic about something, whether it was like

1054
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 3: my water bottles like might get cold or the.

1055
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 2: Water bottle story was your mom made me so sad?

1056
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: It made me so sad?

1057
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 3: Sorry, go No, It was just always something like that,

1058
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,479
Speaker 3: like at the in the final hour, making me doth.

1059
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 3: I would start to doubt what I had done. And

1060
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 3: that's not how you're supposed to be. Even if your

1061
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 3: coach thinks, oh my gosh, we missed this major thing.

1062
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 3: They don't want to put that in your head.

1063
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: But he would.

1064
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: It seemed like you would always freak out at the

1065
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: last minute about something, and so you know, it just

1066
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: would kind of throw me into like a spin. But

1067
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 3: then of course I would have Darren there to calm

1068
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: me down and to recenter me and refocus me.

1069
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: And was he good at that?

1070
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 3: No, I mean he would basically just be like, you're

1071
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 3: Kara fucking Goucher, Act like Kara fucking Goucher, and like, look,

1072
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 3: I'm like grew up in northern Minnesota. I'm like as

1073
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: Midwest as they come, like I can swear, don't get

1074
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 3: me wrong, but like that's just not that doesn't really

1075
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: land with me.

1076
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 4: But I know, but like that's how it was. I'm like,

1077
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 4: I'm Kara Goucher.

1078
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, I want to talk to my family very badly.

1079
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: How did his heart attack and death for a few

1080
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: minutes kind of get him even more deeply? Got it?

1081
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 2: How much you're smiling describing his heart I love death experiences.

1082
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 3: You know what, that really tightened the bond because I

1083
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 3: felt like I almost lost this person who I care

1084
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 3: about so much. And not only is he back from

1085
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 3: the dead, he's so committed to us that he had

1086
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: a heart attack two weeks ago and he's up at

1087
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 3: altitude against his doctor's wishes. Is because he cares about

1088
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 3: us so much. And look, I cared about him so much.

1089
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 3: And that was you know that shortly after his heart attack,

1090
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe a month or maybe a month

1091
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 3: and a half after was the World Championships. And that's

1092
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 3: where I want to meddle at the World Championships. And again,

1093
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: all of these things are reaffirming to me, like you

1094
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 3: need him. He was spared to help you like you

1095
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 3: and also you I would think, like, well, it doesn't

1096
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 3: even I can work harder than I've ever worked, because

1097
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: what is that compared to dying, What is that compared

1098
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 3: to losing Alberto?

1099
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 4: I can take any pain.

1100
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: I can take anything, because losing him would be so

1101
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 3: much worse.

1102
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: How convenient that that happened to him. It really is unfortunate.

1103
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 3: It was really scary, you know, it was really really scary,

1104
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 3: and we were all so scared. And yeah, of course

1105
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: you don't wish that upon anyone, but definitely that was used.

1106
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 4: To rope us all back in more and more.

1107
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: Of course, I could see how easily that could be

1108
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: turned into a tool to just control you guys more.

1109
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it has that like almost magical element

1110
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: to it from the dead.

1111
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

1112
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 4: And all.

1113
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, his fame rose. He was already so famous in

1114
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: the running world, but like his the the you know,

1115
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 3: mystique around him, it grew so much after that. It

1116
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 3: was like he even survived death, you know, and it

1117
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 3: just made him explode in popularity, like it became. He

1118
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 3: became even more famous, if that was possible at that time.

1119
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 2: So there were a couple of people in your life,

1120
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 2: who would observe you going on trips for races with

1121
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: just him and commenting on it and asking if you

1122
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: felt weird about it? What did you feel when that

1123
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: would be brought.

1124
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 3: Up, I felt really defensive, like you don't understand, you

1125
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 3: don't understand how bad we wanted what we do, and

1126
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 3: he's not like that.

1127
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 4: He's like a father figure. There was a there was.

1128
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 3: A meet I was in in Finland where I had

1129
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: a roommate. My husband didn't go on that trip, and

1130
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: she was like, isn't it just weird though you guys

1131
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 3: are just it's just the two of you, and he's

1132
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 3: always watching over you. And I was like, what, No,

1133
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: that's not weird, Like don't make it something it's not.

1134
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: And then in two thousand and nine, my sister and

1135
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 3: I met briefly at a hotel. She was in Boston

1136
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: for her job and I was in Boston running the

1137
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 3: course before I was flying to a meet in Portugal,

1138
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 3: and she was like, but you're about to go take

1139
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: this overnight flight with him.

1140
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 4: You're only going to be with him for the next

1141
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 4: four days, like isn't it awkward?

1142
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: And I remember being like mad at her, like I

1143
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: was like no, And I was really disappointed that she

1144
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 3: would see it that way, and I was mad at

1145
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 3: her instead of like she literally predicted a horrible experience,

1146
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: Like she literally predicted what happened a few hours later.

1147
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 4: But I was so mad at her.

1148
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: Well, you guys were taught people are going to be jealous,

1149
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: or people are going to try to tear us apart.

1150
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: People aren't going to understand by.

1151
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: Alberto, by Alberto, and then it's like covered all that,

1152
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 3: It's exactly what's happening, right, Like they don't understand us.

1153
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 3: They don't understand how bad we want it and how

1154
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: much we're willing to commit to it.

1155
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: Right, So, how did I mean? You don't have to

1156
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: go into graphic detail any with things, but I I

1157
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: just he when did the sexual abuse begin? I guess

1158
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 2: so it was.

1159
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: It was the first trip I ever took, the second

1160
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: trip I ever took with him. I took one to

1161
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 3: hell Sinki, which was when that teammate or another athlete

1162
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: was raising a lot of concerns and I remember just

1163
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 3: being so annoyed with her. But and then later that

1164
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 3: summer we went to Italy together. I was going to

1165
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 3: run a race and it was just the two of us,

1166
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 3: and it was very typical, like he would watch you

1167
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 3: run and then give you a flush. And he was

1168
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 3: actually staying at a different hotel. There was like a bigger,

1169
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 3: grander hotel with a party for the coaches and agents,

1170
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: and he was like, let me just give you a

1171
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: quick flush and then i'll see you tomorrow. I was

1172
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: like great, and he would, you know, tuck your shorts

1173
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: up and then kind of work from you know, your

1174
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 3: ankle up and smooth everything out basically. But you know,

1175
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 3: I was lying there and all of a sudden, I

1176
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 3: was just like, oh that's I remember thinking like, oh,

1177
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: that's getting really close to my vagina, you know, and

1178
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 3: and then his fingers went in there, and.

1179
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 4: I was just completely frozen.

1180
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 3: I could not even like looking back, people will go, oh, well,

1181
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 3: you were alone with him, and you were in a

1182
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: foreign country and all that stuff is true, but I

1183
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 3: couldn't even like think that.

1184
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 4: He was doing it on purpose.

1185
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 3: And the really sad thing is like when he left,

1186
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 3: I was horrified because I had just done a hard

1187
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 3: workout and I was like, he didn't wash his hands,

1188
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 3: and I was like worried about him, which is like

1189
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 3: so messed up. But that was the first time, but

1190
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 3: I really compartmentalized it and like, they use this against

1191
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: me in the hearing that I went out the next

1192
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 3: day and I ran a personal best.

1193
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 4: Which I did.

1194
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 3: I just put it aside because if it was true,

1195
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 3: it would ruin everything that I was working towards.

1196
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 4: And I actually felt guilty.

1197
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 3: I was like, he's just a horrible massage therapist, Like

1198
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 3: I can't even believe I thought he did that on purpose,

1199
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: Like I felt bad.

1200
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I mean at that point, you had been

1201
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: working with him for how long?

1202
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 4: For about two years?

1203
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this man has been like basically priming you

1204
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: to not trust yourself and to only trust him this

1205
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: entire time. You're alone with him all the time. He's

1206
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: your authority figure. He basically has complete power over your life,

1207
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 2: and he's you're achieving your dreams because of it. At

1208
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 2: least that's how it seems. So it makes complete sense

1209
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: to me that that happens, and you're like, uh no,

1210
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 2: that must not be what happened. I can't, I don't,

1211
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: that can't be there.

1212
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 3: I can't even go there mentally, right, because then it

1213
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 3: crushes everything that I've been working for and crushes who

1214
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,760
Speaker 3: I think he is, and I think he's this person

1215
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 3: that was brought into my life for a reason.

1216
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 4: So that that was the first.

1217
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 3: Instance like that, and then it just kind of like

1218
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 3: rolled on from there, right Like there was always locker

1219
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 3: room talk comments about my body that again I just

1220
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 3: would like laugh off and join in like.

1221
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have no boobs, ha ha ha whatever.

1222
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: But you know, after I saw my sister a few

1223
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 3: years later, before I was heading overseas that flight, he

1224
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 3: told me a lot of explicit stuff about his sex

1225
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 3: life with his wife, his sex life in college. And

1226
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 3: I was shocked because locker room talk is like but

1227
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: one thing, but like being told stuff about people I

1228
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 3: knew was very, very different.

1229
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: So you just basically had to put it away and

1230
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 2: keep going.

1231
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just like, he's drunk. He definitely was

1232
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 3: a drinker, and when we would fly, he'd take ambient

1233
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 3: and drink, and you know, he's just he's talking like

1234
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 3: this because he's drunk, and he doesn't even know what

1235
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,919
Speaker 3: he's saying essentially, And I mean, like I just could

1236
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 3: excuse anything away. It was so much harder to think

1237
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 3: of the alternative, which is, this is a wildly inappropriate situation,

1238
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 3: and this is totally unhealthy in every sense of the word. Right,

1239
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: Like that just couldn't even I was so close to

1240
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 3: achieving all the things I had dreamt of that it

1241
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 3: was just like nobody's perfect. He obviously was drunk. He

1242
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 3: doesn't talk to me like that when he's sober. He's

1243
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 3: never told me anything like that when he's sober.

1244
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: It has to be that the cognitive dissonance. I cannot

1245
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: imagine how strong that would be, because you really would be,

1246
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 2: at least in your mind or in my mind, if

1247
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 2: I were in that situation, jeopardizing my entire career, dreams,

1248
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: the whole social system around me where I live.

1249
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: My husband's career, yeah, all of it.

1250
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: Yes, everything falls apart.

1251
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, everything falls apart.

1252
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: It's not even like we could I could just leave

1253
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: him because or tell someone about it, because he my

1254
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 3: sponsor pays him to coach me.

1255
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 4: So who am I going to go to. I'm disposable.

1256
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 3: There's a million carri gouchers that they could bring in

1257
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 3: and train, but Nike isn't. They're not going anywhere, so

1258
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 3: they can flush me away and then I lose everything.

1259
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 3: I lose, you know, my livelihood, my dreams, my husband's livelihood,

1260
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 3: So I couldn't even I couldn't even go there.

1261
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: There wasn't really anywhere for you to report to that

1262
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: you even knew how to approach, right.

1263
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 4: I had no idea.

1264
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: There was nothing safe sport is there now It wasn't then,

1265
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 3: and honestly, you have to reach out to safe sport.

1266
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have I don't think I would have been

1267
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: too afraid. In all my years at Nike, I had

1268
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: never met a woman in my where I was right, Like,

1269
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 3: it was like Alberto sports marketing director John Caprioti is male,

1270
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 3: but people in control of that are male all the

1271
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: way up the chain to Mark Parker, the CEO, who

1272
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 3: was a man. So it's like, well, who am I

1273
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 3: going to like go to? Like I knew Nike had

1274
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 3: HR I had no idea if I even qualified for that.

1275
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 3: Like I was a contracted worker. I wasn't an employee.

1276
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 3: So it's just like anytime I'd think about anything like that,

1277
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 3: it would be like, wow, it's not worth it.

1278
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 2: And Alberto was chummy with the people at the top too, right,

1279
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 2: oh oh.

1280
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, he and Phil Knight, the co founder of Nike,

1281
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: who is the president of Nike.

1282
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 4: I believe they are.

1283
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it was Phil Knight's dream to have Alberto

1284
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: have this team succeed. So it's like Phil Knight, who

1285
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 3: is mister Nike if you've seen that movie, Like he

1286
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 3: and Alberto are really good friends.

1287
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 4: He's not gonna believe me. I mean, I'm gonna get

1288
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 4: flicked away in a heartbeat, you know.

1289
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you already knew the like therapist was repeating

1290
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: what you were saying.

1291
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,720
Speaker 4: So yes, and he was supposed to be a safe place.

1292
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's like, where am I going to go?

1293
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,439
Speaker 3: There's literally nowhere for me to go. So I either

1294
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 3: leave and give everything up, or I just, you know,

1295
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 3: keep reminding myself that no one's perfec I'm lucky to

1296
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 3: be here and deal with whatever I have to deal with.

1297
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us.

1298
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 1: A little bit about the experience of running the Boston

1299
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: Marathon and when you kind of got this inspiration and

1300
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: felt it was kind of from your dad.

1301
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was actually the New York City Marathon.

1302
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: Sorry, thank you.

1303
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. So my dad died when I was so young.

1304
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 3: I don't really have memories of him, and I you know,

1305
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 3: that's something I always struggled with, Like I was damaged somehow.

1306
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 3: But like I always wanted to know my dad more,

1307
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 3: and as I got older, I got more and more

1308
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 3: into wanting to learn more about him. But my dad

1309
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,439
Speaker 3: and my running had never overlapped in any way, shape

1310
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 3: or form. Like he wasn't even a runner, he was

1311
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 3: a soccer player. And so the first marathon I ran

1312
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: was in New York City, and there was so much

1313
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 3: media around the fact that he had lived there and

1314
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 3: he died in New York City and how did I feel?

1315
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 4: And I really kind of deflected.

1316
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: Everything because I was like, he doesn't have anything to

1317
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 3: do with this, like it, you know, that has nothing

1318
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: to do with what I'm here to do, which is

1319
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 3: to run the best marathon I can. And I was,

1320
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 3: you know, I was in the race and it was

1321
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 3: around the thirteen mile mark, and I I started to

1322
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 3: feel really overwhelmed, like I can't do this, like I'm

1323
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 3: so tired, and I only I'm not even halfway through,

1324
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 3: and I dropped back a bit in the pack and

1325
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 3: I was, you know, really struggling, and all of a sudden,

1326
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 3: I just heard this voice saying, you can do this.

1327
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 3: You know you can do this, get back in there,

1328
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 3: you can do it. And I pictured my dad, which

1329
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 3: was like, I literally had never thought about my dad

1330
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 3: when I was running before, and I found this strength

1331
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 3: to sort of like get back into the pack, get

1332
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 3: myself back into the top three. And it wasn't until later,

1333
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 3: after talking about it at the press conference that I

1334
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 3: found out that when I heard his voice, it was

1335
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 3: within blocks of where he had died. And I'm like,

1336
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: I'm getting goosebumps again. I don't, like, that's the only

1337
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 3: time I've ever had in experience like that. And I

1338
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: don't know if it was him or my subconscious, but

1339
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 3: I think it was him and I think that he

1340
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 3: was there for me in that moment.

1341
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: Amazing. I had to hear it.

1342
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, I'm welcome.

1343
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: Before we get into how this all ends, can you

1344
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: tell us about getting pregnant and how Nike responded to

1345
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: your pregnancy.

1346
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1347
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 3: So I was always honest with Alberto and with Nike

1348
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 3: that I wanted to have a baby. In fact, Alberto

1349
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 3: helped me plan when to have my baby, went to

1350
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 3: go through fertility treatment. It was just an open discussion

1351
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 3: and I asked him when it was time, like, what's

1352
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 3: going to happen to my contract? Because there was no

1353
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 3: maternity or the word pregnancy or anything like that in

1354
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 3: the Nike contracts, and he went to the head of

1355
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 3: sports marketing, who's in charge of that, and he said,

1356
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 3: don't even go there. As long as she stays relevant,

1357
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: we'll pay her. So while during my pregnancy, I did

1358
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 3: dozens of interviews, magazine cover shoots. I traveled all around.

1359
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 3: You can see photos of me running with a huge belly.

1360
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 3: Nike actually orchestrated my announcement of my pregnancy. It was

1361
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 3: on the front page of the New York Times Sports section,

1362
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 3: and they orchestrated all of that. And so then when

1363
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: I was entering my third trimester, I was really surprised

1364
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,479
Speaker 3: when I found out that they had cut my pay

1365
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 3: and they said I was suspended. They didn't know for

1366
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 3: how long, but that I had broken my contract by

1367
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 3: not like I had let one hundred twenty days lapse

1368
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 3: between competitions, and at that point it was a lot

1369
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 3: more than one hundred and twenty days, and that I

1370
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 3: was suspended indefinitely. They didn't know when they would start

1371
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 3: paying me again. But the sooner I returned to competition,

1372
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,439
Speaker 3: the better. And I was totally blindsided.

1373
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been using you to promote their companies.

1374
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that lines of women were coming to

1375
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: get to see you because they were like, that's so cool.

1376
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: A female athlete's getting pregnant. She's going to be a

1377
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: mom and a professional athlete.

1378
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: Like they're parading you around.

1379
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're parading you and they're getting so much positive

1380
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: attention for supporting pregnant women athletes, and then behind the scenes,

1381
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: not so much.

1382
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1383
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 3: What they were sharing was we support women on all

1384
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 3: walks of life, female athletes, and at the time, I

1385
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 3: was the most requested female athlete at Nike across all

1386
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 3: sports for interviews and appearances, and I was being touted

1387
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 3: as like, look, you can have it all, and Nike's.

1388
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 4: There for you, like they love all of the women.

1389
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 2: You can have it all parts for a paycheck.

1390
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, yeah exactly.

1391
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 3: But behind closed doors, it was well, you haven't raced,

1392
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 3: you haven't met your requirement and so and it was

1393
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 3: really really hard. And you know, I had bought into

1394
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 3: that whole Nike family thing. I thought it would be

1395
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 3: in the Nike family even when I was done racing.

1396
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 3: I thought I would like go into coaching or help

1397
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 3: with shoe development something, and it was such a stark

1398
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: realization that, like, this is a business, and I tried

1399
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 3: to fight it. I met with different lawyers there. I

1400
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 3: went all the way up to the CEO, Mark Parker,

1401
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 3: because I knew him. I had flown on the Nike

1402
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 3: Jet a couple of times with him, and I just

1403
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 3: said like, look, I think this is totally unfair. You've

1404
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 3: been marketing this way and if people knew what was

1405
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 3: really happening, they would be horrified, you know. And he

1406
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 3: he chose company loyalty over like ethics, you know, and

1407
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 3: he said, I believe in the team. I believe they'll

1408
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 3: do the right thing. And so, yeah, it was really hard.

1409
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 3: And that was when I when I really started to

1410
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 3: think I want to I want to leave Nike when

1411
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 3: I can. I still had years on my contract. In fact,

1412
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 3: they added a year because of my pregnancy, but I

1413
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 3: was started to think, like, this brand does not represent

1414
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 3: what I believe what I represent.

1415
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what was the straw that broke the camel's

1416
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 2: back with Alberto?

1417
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 3: It's kind of embarrassing because of all the things that happened,

1418
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: like including him constantly talking about my breast, all these

1419
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 3: things that had happened. We were on a flight to

1420
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 3: the World Championships and it was just he and I.

1421
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 3: We hadn't been along together alone, just the two of

1422
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 3: us in a long time, and he he started, you know,

1423
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 3: kind of back like had been a couple of years earlier,

1424
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 3: started talking about sexual experiences and stuff. And then he

1425
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 3: just was like basically told me, like we've we've been

1426
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 3: into each other, you and had time, yeah, me and him,

1427
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 3: and yeah, like Adam and Molly will never know.

1428
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 4: And he tried to kiss me.

1429
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 3: And it's kind of embarrassing that that was the breaking point,

1430
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 3: but I couldn't compartmentalize it because it was in my face,

1431
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 3: like literally it was in my face and there. I

1432
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 3: got up and went to the bathroom and I was thinking, like,

1433
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 3: there's no way to excuse it, like that just happened.

1434
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 3: And I've just felt really degraded because I still thought him,

1435
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 3: even though we were having some issues with our relationship

1436
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 3: and you'd been treating me differently, I still thought he

1437
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 3: was just like like a father figure. And so that

1438
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 3: was that was definitely the last draw for me. I

1439
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 3: got through that championship and I told my husband I'm leading,

1440
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 3: and I never went back.

1441
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 2: I don't think that's embarrassing at all. I think it

1442
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 2: makes total sense. So just just so you know, because

1443
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 2: I mean before it's like very it's covert. You're like,

1444
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: is this an accident? Is this mistake?

1445
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: Am I crazy for thinking?

1446
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? But when he is just saying it to your face,

1447
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: that's like, oh, this isn't in my head, this is real,

1448
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: this is actually happening, and I.

1449
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there was no amount of like mental gymnastics

1450
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 3: to be like, that didn't happen right the way that

1451
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 3: it happened, right, Like other things, I knew it happened,

1452
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 3: but I'm like the way that it happened. I could

1453
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 3: change the way I felt like the way that it happened.

1454
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 3: But this was so in my face. It was like

1455
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna break I'm gonna have a breakdown because

1456
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 3: I actually cannot put that in a box.

1457
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: Right, So tell us about what happened after that and

1458
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 2: the next coach that you had and the contrast between them.

1459
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1460
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 3: So I left and I had a meeting with him

1461
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: where I asked him to meet me. My husband offered

1462
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 3: to come and I said, no, this is between me

1463
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 3: and Alberto, and I showed up for the meeting and

1464
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 3: Darren was there and they were both telling me like,

1465
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 3: don't cut off your nose to spite your face, and

1466
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 3: you're gonna like you're gonna throw everything away. And I

1467
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 3: remember just kind of sitting there being like seeing everything

1468
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 3: from a different light, but I was still emotional. I mean,

1469
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 3: these are people that had been like so important to me.

1470
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 3: And then I just remember like Darren saying if you leave,

1471
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 3: you won't be able to work with me anymore, and

1472
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 3: I just remember that was such a trigger for me.

1473
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, thank god that didn't work out

1474
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 3: the way he thought it was gonna work out.

1475
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 2: Wait, now I really need to do it.

1476
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 3: So I left, and then there was this time of

1477
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 3: like trying to find a new coach, and finally I

1478
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 3: ended up with another coach that was part of the

1479
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 3: Nike Jorgan project and he was also very very strict,

1480
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 3: but like he didn't ask me about my sex life,

1481
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: he didn't ask me what I was doing at night,

1482
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 3: he didn't ask me to step on a scale. He

1483
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 3: just expected me to show up and work my boat

1484
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 3: off that practice. And I wasn't getting text messages from

1485
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 3: him all day long. Or it was so different, and

1486
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 3: part of it is like I was over it, Like

1487
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm never going to be in this

1488
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 3: situation again. And he and I were only eight years apart,

1489
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 3: so I didn't fear. I didn't you know, he didn't

1490
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 3: fill that.

1491
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 4: Father figure role at all. He was strictly a coach.

1492
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 3: But it was just a healthy relationship where I could

1493
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 3: tell him if I was mad or whatever and he

1494
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 3: would just deal with it, or we would have a

1495
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 3: conversation about what I wanted to do differently, and we

1496
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 3: would have a conversation of if it was good or

1497
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 3: not long term, and but it was just everything was

1498
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 3: about running and not.

1499
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 4: You know, it stayed in its lane. He was my

1500
01:05:58,360 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 4: running coach.

1501
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: Can you tell us that asking him if you could

1502
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: dye your hair darker?

1503
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I had want I had this picture of

1504
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 3: my mom and she had this beautiful black hair, and

1505
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 3: I had told Alberta, like, I'm thinking about dying my

1506
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 3: hair black, and he was like.

1507
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, like you're you're the girl next door.

1508
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 4: Don't do that.

1509
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 3: So one day I said something to Jerry. I was like,

1510
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about dying my hair black, Like would you care?

1511
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 3: And he was like like he literally looked at me

1512
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 3: like I just spoke Chinese at him.

1513
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 4: He was just like what right, what right? And so

1514
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 4: I would and did it and he didn't even notice.

1515
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 4: Like that just shows the difference. He didn't even notice.

1516
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 3: Like I got to practice and everyone's like, oh my god,

1517
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 3: your hair, and he didn't even notice. So it just

1518
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 3: was a completely different world. And it helped me to

1519
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 3: start to step back. It took me years to really

1520
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 3: like deal with it all, but it helped me to

1521
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 3: start stepping back and seeing like what an unhealthy environment

1522
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 3: I had been in.

1523
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: Right, Erry sounds like such a legend, and it seemed

1524
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: like Alberta would always pick on him and make fun

1525
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: of him and try to like undermine this actually good

1526
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: person doing good stuff.

1527
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, for the jerrys of the world, Yeah,

1528
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 3: for sure. I was lucky to have him for a

1529
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 3: couple of years. And I left, you know, when my

1530
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 3: when I was able to get out of my contract,

1531
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 3: you know I would.

1532
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 4: He handled it so great.

1533
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 3: He was like, I don't blame you, I wish you

1534
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 3: the best. I think you still have more running. And

1535
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 3: I was able to move back to Colorado and finish

1536
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 3: out my career with my college coach, which was really special.

1537
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So looking back on it now, I mean, how

1538
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: do you feel about this experience now and how did

1539
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 2: it change your relationship to running in general? If it did.

1540
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 3: I lost my love of running for a long time

1541
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 3: because I felt like it was sort of tainted and

1542
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 3: dirty and it wasn't for me.

1543
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 4: But I have that love back. I will be really

1544
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 4: honest that I've been through.

1545
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 3: A lot of therapy because as I started to get

1546
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 3: further and further back, I felt really icky about ways

1547
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 3: I had acted, about the things that I had allowed

1548
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 3: to take place around me, and there was a lot

1549
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 3: of shame in that. I'm at a point now where

1550
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 3: I don't I don't feel shameful. I feel like I

1551
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 3: was manipulated in a situation and they took my trust,

1552
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 3: and they took the things about me like I'm a

1553
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 3: little broken bird, like I lost my dad. I have

1554
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 3: these insecurities and they took those and they use that

1555
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 3: against me. And I think that happened to a lot

1556
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: of people. And I look back and I feel sad.

1557
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 3: I feel sad because I feel like if I had

1558
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 3: been in a better environment, who knows what I could

1559
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 3: have achieved.

1560
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 4: But I also but I also feel.

1561
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 3: Like they underestimated who I was, and I am like

1562
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 3: out here holding them accountable for it. I don't think

1563
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 3: they ever.

1564
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 4: Thought that that would happen.

1565
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got death threats and you were like, cool,

1566
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 1: let's go.

1567
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 4: Well it wasn't like cool.

1568
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, oh god, just getting real basically, yeah,

1569
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 3: but you kept going.

1570
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I kept going.

1571
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:30,680
Speaker 3: But I had to see it through right, like I

1572
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 3: couldn't every time, Like when I fought him first to

1573
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 3: have him banned through anti doping, through that hearing and everything,

1574
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 3: and when I was asked to be a part of

1575
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 3: the Safe Sport case, which is what he is essentially

1576
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 3: banned for life for, which is for sexual abuse, I

1577
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 3: really didn't want to do it. I was like, I'm tired.

1578
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 3: I am just finally dealing with what happened to me.

1579
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 3: I won't have to relive it in a situation where

1580
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: he's there and where he has a lawyer who can,

1581
01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:59,839
Speaker 3: you know, ask me questions and make me feel small.

1582
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 3: But then I really thought about honestly, I really thought

1583
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 3: about my nieces, who are really good girls, like do

1584
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 3: what you're asked, really polite, and I thought someone has

1585
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 3: to change this, because otherwise they could one hundred percent end.

1586
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 4: Up where I did, right, Like, that's just that's how it's.

1587
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 3: Going to be, because they're not going to question, they're

1588
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,920
Speaker 3: going to be thankful, they're gonna they're just going to

1589
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 3: be like I was. And so I really thought about them,

1590
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 3: and that's what really motivated me to see it all

1591
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 3: the way through. And when it was done, it was done.

1592
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 3: And now I get to move on. I get to

1593
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 3: have my life, I get to have my running, and

1594
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 3: I get to move on, and he does what he

1595
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 3: did doesn't get to define me anymore.

1596
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 2: I love that. If if there's someone listening who's experienced

1597
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 2: something similar, I mean, do you have any advice, do

1598
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 2: you have any tips?

1599
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 3: I think you know, first of all, you haven't done

1600
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:48,800
Speaker 3: anything wrong, And if you're if you have a coach

1601
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 3: who's really involved in your life and it makes you

1602
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 3: feel any certain way, I would express that to someone

1603
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 3: by you, whether it's a parent or a teammate or

1604
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 3: a teacher or another coach, because usually your intuition is

1605
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 3: spot on, and I feel like I talked myself out

1606
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 3: of my intuition a lot. But I also want to

1607
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 3: say that there's no timeline on when you're ready to

1608
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 3: share these things. You may never want to share these things.

1609
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 3: You know, it took me. I didn't even talk about

1610
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 3: it with a therapist until, you know, over ten years

1611
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 3: after the first incident, And I think that can make

1612
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 3: people feel like, well, I don't deserve to talk about

1613
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 3: it now. I let so much time ago. But there's

1614
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 3: no rule book on any of it. And also, just

1615
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 3: be gentle with yourself because quite honestly, you were probably

1616
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 3: doing the best you could. You were surviving, and you

1617
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 3: were doing the best you could with what you had

1618
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 3: at the time. And you know, like when I was

1619
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 3: first in therapy, I was like, I didn't even say anything.

1620
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 3: I just lied there, like you could have even done

1621
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 3: more to me, and I wouldn't have said anything, like

1622
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 3: it's my fault. And now I look back and say, what,

1623
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 3: I was in survival mode and I did what I

1624
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 3: had to do to survive.

1625
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:52,719
Speaker 2: Where can people find your book or anything else that you'd.

1626
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: Like to share?

1627
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you can follow me on social at Carigaucher

1628
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 3: on Twitter and Instagram, and I have like any events

1629
01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to be and stuff. My book is called

1630
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 3: The Longest Race, and you can get it at most

1631
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 3: bookstores on Amazon, anything like that, and you can catch

1632
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 3: me on NBC. I'm the distance analyst for Distance Races

1633
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 3: and Track and Field, so you'll hear my voice if

1634
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 3: you turn out of track.

1635
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 1: Cool.

1636
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 2: It's an awesome book.

1637
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you so much for being here. Yeah,

1638
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: have an awesome day.

1639
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 4: Thank you, thanks so much for having me.

1640
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 2: Alrighty, Meghan. Yes, that concludes our interview with.

1641
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: Kara, who I love. She's so cool.

1642
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 2: Megan, what do you think would you join the Nike

1643
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 2: organ Project? Hell? Yes, me too. Yes, it sounds so cool.

1644
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I would join it so quickly. I

1645
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: hate that he turned out to be such a little

1646
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: piece of work. Hit work sounds too like cute, He's

1647
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:49,879
Speaker 1: a piece of shit. Yeah. I would join in a heartbeat,

1648
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: and I would be completely heartbroken and destroyed when he

1649
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: turned out to be a monster.

1650
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 2: Dude. It sounds like like if someone was like, hey, Lola,

1651
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 2: do you want to join this like elite filmmakers like

1652
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 2: retreat extended retreat where you get to like have all

1653
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 2: the beautiful, yeah, peaceful writing spaces in the world, but

1654
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 2: then also go over this section for your inspiration and

1655
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 2: then also interact with other established filmmakers over here, like

1656
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 2: one one hundred percent I would be there.

1657
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 1: There would be nothing better. There would be nothing better. Yeah,

1658
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: I signed me up.

1659
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:27,680
Speaker 2: With like fucking I don't know, Michael Hannicky or like

1660
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 2: a whatever, a director I really respect. And that's the

1661
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: person running it, you know, like some like legend.

1662
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: And then like your husband is also an artist and

1663
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: also getting his needs met there too, right.

1664
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 2: Element heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven, heaven.

1665
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 1: I hate that it turned out the way it did,

1666
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 1: but there, for a minute, Wow, yeah, sounded pretty perfect.

1667
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,839
Speaker 2: I mean, then it sounds like Nike has implemented changes.

1668
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 2: It sounds like the industry in general is like experiencing

1669
01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 2: a shift. But you know it, it takes people like

1670
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 2: Kara speaking out for those changes to happen.

1671
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: It's not She's very brave.

1672
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is very brave.

1673
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, keep being brave yourselves, y'all. We

1674
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: got a lot of work to do in this world.

1675
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening this week. We can't

1676
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: wait to talk to you here next week, and as always,

1677
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

1678
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 2: Flax, and never ever.

1679
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: Trust me, Bye bye.

1680
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 2: Trust me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp, and

1681
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1682
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1683
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1684
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1685
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1686
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1687
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and oh La Lola on Twitter.

1688
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1689
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1690
01:13:53,200 --> 01:14:00,639
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.