1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to OKF Daily with Meet 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: to say that this has been a challenging week would 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: be an understatement. I think that everything is signaling to 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: the fact that Donald Trump is probably more likely than 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: not to be the forty seventh president of the United States. 7 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: That there are signs, whether they're coming through our judiciary 8 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: with alien cannon deciding aph you know what, we're not 9 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: going to actually do this court case with the documents. 10 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: You know, we have so many pre trial things to do, bullshit, bullshit, 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: bullshit that the Supreme Court is signaling that, you know, 12 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: maybe a president should have immunity because you know, how 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: else did the other forty four presidents before this criminal 14 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: last one forty five? How did they all manage? So 15 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: I think that what we are seeing, and the reason 16 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: why I get so just beside myself for lack of 17 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: a better word, is because every sign points to the 18 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: end of America as we know it. Every sign points 19 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: to the end of our democracy as we know it. 20 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: We have a genocide that is raging on seven months 21 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: plus close to forty thousand people dead, including fifteen thousand 22 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: and counting children, Biden has decided to side with a homicidal, 23 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: homicidal maniac. Like I say, homicidal over and over again, 24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: just to you know, run the point home. They have 25 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: no desire in Israel, the government to have a two 26 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: state solution to stop this war, to come to any negotiation, 27 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: because you can't negotiate with terrorists, and what they want 28 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: is to wipe out the Palestinian people. And Joe Biden 29 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: is right on their side. And so, like I have 30 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: been saying all week long, which is that we are 31 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: faced with is Sophie's choice, right, this idea that whatever 32 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: the choice that we make, it's going to be painful. 33 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: And I think that that's where I want to really 34 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: focus this morning on, which is that I think that 35 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: we have been set up to believe that we only 36 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: get to make good choices, that we only get to 37 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: do the things that make us feel good. And what 38 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: I am realizing and what I am grappling with myself, 39 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: is that that's not the case. Right this time around. 40 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: We don't get to feel good like we did in 41 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, in twenty twelve, right the days 42 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: of feeling good and excited about who we're electing, I 43 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: think are gone. I think that for the next several cycles, 44 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: if we're able to make it out of this one 45 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump manages somehow not to become president, giving 46 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: all of the cards that are stacked against Biden, all 47 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: of the cards that he has fucking stacked against himself, 48 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: if we're able to make it through this cycle, I 49 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: think that the next several are going to be a 50 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: lot like this last one, meaning that we're not going 51 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: to love the candidates. But what we need to make 52 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: sure and I think that the most important thing to 53 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: understand is whether or not they respect the Constitution of 54 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: the United States, whether or not they are going to 55 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: uphold democracy, and where they stand on issues of the 56 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: social safety net and entitlements, where they stand on the environment, 57 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: on education, on reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, on LGBTQ equality, 58 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: on racial justice, and really drill those things down. But 59 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: are we going to fall in love? No, we're not. 60 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: And I think that where I am with the decision 61 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: at hand in the next couple of months is that 62 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: I don't like Biden. I don't I think that I 63 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: have completely soured on him given his staunch support for 64 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: Israel and the fact that they are going to erase 65 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: Palestinian people their homeland from the map, and America is 66 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: going to be complicit in that. And five and ten 67 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: years from now, when we look back at what was caused, 68 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: I think that Biden's entire legacy, if in fact we 69 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: have history at that time, will be tarnished beyond measure. 70 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: I think that his decision to put Israel above everything 71 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: else has made me really understand the binds and the 72 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: power of white supremacy, and that, you know, you can 73 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: do a little bit of good, but that doesn't erase 74 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: a whole lot of bad. So you can, you know, 75 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: decide to reschedule marijuana, you can decide to you know, 76 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: reduce student loan debt. You can decide to work on 77 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: climate change and infrastructure issues. But if at the end 78 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: of the day, your democracy and your understanding of quality 79 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: and justice stops at the borders of the United States, 80 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: then I don't want to fuck with you. Like That's 81 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: that's where I am right knowing that I am going 82 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: to vote for Joe Biden because a vote for Donald 83 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: Trump would be a vote to put myself in a camp, 84 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: would be a vote for my own extermination and those 85 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: that I love in the communities that I care about, 86 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: am the part of and have been fighting for my 87 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: entire professional career. But am I happy about that decision. 88 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: Am I going to gleefily, wear a T shirt, put 89 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: up a sign and put my fist in the air 90 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: for Joe Biden? Absolutely fucking not. I will do what 91 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: needs to be done, and I hope that a lot 92 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: of people out there will do the same, will hold 93 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: their nose, will, you know, wash it down with some 94 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: listerine afterwards, and we can deal with and fight and push, 95 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: you know, following that election. But right now, I'm not 96 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: going to be excited about it, and no one's gonna 97 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: make me feel excited about it. But I'm gonna do 98 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: what needs to be done. And I think that that's 99 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: where all of us need to get to. That sometimes 100 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: we're not making choices that we feel great about, that 101 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: we're jumping up and down about, that we're writing home about. 102 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes the choices that we make are just tough and 103 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: they suck. And that is I guess what it means 104 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: to adult in twenty twenty four or in a climate 105 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't produce a bevy of politicians offer you to 106 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: choose from, and the choices are really slim. Coming up next, 107 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor 108 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel. We're talking about an article that he has 109 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: out now about what happens to Israel if they adopt 110 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: the gun laws and policies that we have in this country. 111 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: It's a difficult conversation because we're in a difficult space 112 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: this week, folks, but you know we are going to 113 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: continue to push through because that's what we do. We 114 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: take breaks so that we don't have breakdowns. We turn 115 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: off the news, we turn into ourselves and into those 116 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: that we care about, and we just keep on keeping on. 117 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: Some weeks are better than others. This week just ain't 118 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: it for me? Coming up next, our friend Jonathan Metzell. Folks, 119 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: you know that whenever we have the chance to speak 120 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are 121 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 1: always grateful. And today we are digging into an article 122 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: that Jonathan did in Zokolo Public Square, an essay entitled 123 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: what could American style gun culture do to Israel? Jonathan 124 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: give us the high level points of how Israel's gun 125 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: control has been different very different from the United States, 126 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: and why there is a shift that has happened. 127 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: Well, let me first acknowledge that we're recording this on 128 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: a really hard day. You know, there's there's a lot 129 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: of despair in the area right now. I've actually been 130 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: on the phone pretty much all night with people who 131 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: saw a glimmer of hope, and now it feels like 132 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: we're deep in this moment, even worse than ever for 133 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: a lot of people who were there. And so before 134 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: before I say that, and I'm going to be answer 135 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: that question, I just want to say, you know, I've 136 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: always thought this, but I hope, I hope we've I hope, 137 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: God damn it, we've hit the bottom right now, and 138 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: that the next time we talk, by the next next week, 139 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: this moment of what I feel like is strategic disaster, 140 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: personally and moral disaster. It has turned into a change 141 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: of direction. So let me just first say that and 142 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: then I'll talk about the article. But we're we're recording 143 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: this on a really, really hard moment, and having been 144 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: on the phone with a lot of people, I know 145 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: that a lot of people to share that sentiment. And 146 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: so now for me, I've been I've been collaborating with 147 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: public health colleagues. As you know, for well over a 148 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: decade now, I've worked with physicians for human rights Israel Palestine. 149 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: For I mean we were looking back there day like 150 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: fifteen years now or something like that, and so done 151 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: a lot of work on violence reduction, mostly in southern 152 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: Israel and the West Bank. And it was before this 153 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 2: current intent now who government, a kind of vibrant organization 154 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: that combined Israeli and Israeli Palestinian doctors, social workers, nurses, 155 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: other healthcare providers to try to limit gun reform. And 156 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: the irony for me was before this current government, Israel 157 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: was a model of you know, Americans like me went 158 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: to Israel. We would have conferences there to see like 159 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: why is there so little gun death civilian gun death 160 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: in a way, and so there's no Second Amendment in Israel. 161 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: There there were really really tight laws, assault weapons bans, 162 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: all these kinds of things. And so Israeli public health 163 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: was a model for gun reform before this government. And 164 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 2: then this right wing government took over and immediately they 165 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: started pulling out the NRA playbook. They started giving out guns, 166 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: mostly to settlers in the West Bank, but also in 167 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: urban areas to form these crazy police squads. So they 168 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: adopted the NRA playbook, and the essay was basically, what 169 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: happens to the moral soul of a country when you 170 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: start arming mostly right wing people? And what we see 171 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: kind of what I argue in the piece is that 172 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: it's actually harder to make peace when you haven't armed 173 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: a bunch of right wing zealots on your side. And 174 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: so part of what we're seeing globally as a reflection 175 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: of the internal politics of Israel. So it was definitely 176 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: not an easy piece to write. I've spent the past 177 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: six months interviewing tons and tons and tons of people 178 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: on all sides of this, but I do think that 179 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: there is an issue which doesn't seem urgent today, but 180 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: it is a bigger issue that I think will need 181 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: to be addressed about the internal politics of Israel and 182 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: how the nintenda who is marginalized public health and the 183 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: left in ways that I think are really disastrous. 184 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: Also, so one of the things that you say that 185 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: you write in here, and I want to read a 186 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: piece of it for the listeners, is that effective gun 187 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: policy reinforce social cohesion. While Americans carry guns based on 188 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: individualized notions of self protection. Israeli's considered gun ownership a 189 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: shared responsibility. Can you speak to that a bit about 190 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: the difference in the individualization that we have here of 191 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: let's say, the castle doctrine and stand your ground and 192 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: this individualized idea of protecting myself in my property versus 193 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: what was a shared responsibility in Israel. 194 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: So I actually the piece ends in the castle doctrine. 195 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: For that exact reason, the castle doctrine made absolutely no 196 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: sense in the Middle East context because nobody had guns. 197 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: The narrative of why people had guns was to protect 198 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: their nation. They got their guns because of military training, 199 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: but there was no such thing as like individual civilians 200 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: walking around carrying guns because they might get robbed or 201 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 2: something like that. That was that's not part of the ethos, 202 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: and so gun training for people was part of this 203 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: exercise of like, we're defending our country. So it was 204 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: a very plural narrative. But in terms of the internal 205 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: politics of Israel, the idea was basically, we're all looking 206 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: out for each other, and we don't need guns because 207 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: we have institutions, the police and other things that protect us, 208 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: and so there's no need for guns in a civilian 209 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: context and there were no laws that let people have 210 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: guns in civilian contexts for the most part. Now, as 211 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: I write in the piece, that's not totally true. There 212 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: were gun markets in Israeli Palestinian towns, and there were 213 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: a lot of guns that were stolen from the military 214 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: and sold there and things like that, but for the 215 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: most part, guns were seeing. The narrative was a plural narrative. 216 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: It wasn't an individual narrative. There's no individual right to 217 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: bear arms or anything like that. They didn't have that, 218 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: and it led to this sense. I mean, the two 219 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: most powerful stories for me and why I wrote the piece. 220 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: The first was, I think it was like twenty fifteen. 221 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: I was speaking at a conference there and the NRA 222 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: had sent a delegation of NRA people come over and 223 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: try to spur because they thought Israel was a great 224 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: gun market, and so they sent over all these NRAA 225 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: people donors, and they toured around and they started touting 226 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: American style gun laws. You know, carry a gun, you 227 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: don't know, castle doctor, and all this stuff, and they 228 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: were almost effectively kind of laughed out of town. This 229 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: conference I was at had a lot of the leading 230 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: public health and doctors, and they were like, man, you 231 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: Americans are crazy, like we don't need guns in civilian 232 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: life at all. And so the NA came over totally 233 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: not understanding the Israeli context and it was so foreign, like, 234 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: of course, we're we don't need this, you guys are 235 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: They called it American michu gos, like American craziness. And 236 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: another instance was there was the Parkland mass shooting here 237 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: and Mike Huckabe just happened to be in Israel at 238 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: the time, visiting, and he tweeted when he was there, 239 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: I'm in Israel and there's no mass shootings here because 240 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: everybody has a gun, and people there's a hyperlink in 241 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: my piece one of the first two paragraphs. People pounced 242 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: on him and they were like, dude, this isn't the 243 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: US at all. We don't have your crazy second Amendment. 244 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: We don't have mass shootings here because we have responsible 245 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: gun laws. And so every time somebody would try to 246 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: make this argument that we're the US, that is, you know, 247 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: like the US the whole place would and I invite 248 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: people to like click on that link because it's really interesting, 249 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 2: the response is that was like, we don't have your 250 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: insanity here, and then the Nitaniaho government got elected and 251 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: then they started handing out guns and overturning all the 252 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: gun laws and stuff like that. And so part of 253 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: the argument for me, which is tied to my work 254 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: in my book, also is that got loose gun laws 255 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: are a way to destabilize functioning democracies. The minute nitania 256 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: Who started arming his supporters, there was a threat to 257 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: liberals who then thought maybe we need guns also, And 258 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: so you end up dividing a country and rupturing these 259 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: these national narratives. 260 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: And I think the other the other piece of this 261 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: that is you know that that can't be overlooked is 262 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm in the midst. I was telling Andrew, 263 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: my producer, that I'm behind the times because I am 264 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: in the midst of reading the Shock Doctrine right now 265 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: by Naomi Klein and understanding that, you know, when you 266 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: have moments of catastrophe, whether it be man made or 267 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: natural catastrophe or exacerbated natural catastrophe, which is what is 268 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: happening with climate change, you have very eager politicians that 269 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: want to use those moments in order to push through 270 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: an agenda. And similarly, with nine to eleven in the 271 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: United States, and how we ended up ushering in the 272 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: Patriot Act, which gave away our freedom and allowed for 273 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: the United States to overtly begin to surveil American people 274 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: for our own safety. Net Nyahu has used October seventh, 275 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: this devastating day in Israeli history, to push through gun laws. 276 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: Can you speak to that? And Ben Gavir and like 277 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: this whole idea of kind of using this horrible moment, 278 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: using the fear that then was brought up in this 279 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: horrible moment, to then push through a very radicalized gun agenda. 280 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not just a gun agenda, it's the 281 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 2: gun agenda is a is a part of a much 282 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: bigger agenda. I just would say, I mean, if people 283 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: want to read one Israeli source on this, and a 284 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: lot of people don't, I get that. But Aretz is 285 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: a pretty good a pretty good reflection of the views 286 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 2: of a lot of people on the Israeli left who 287 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: since this election really have been constantly under attack, constantly protesting. 288 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: I mean, they've got a year head start on everybody 289 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: in terms of millions of people being out in the street. 290 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: Before October they were protesting the judicial reform. The quote 291 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: unquote reform, the takeover of the judiciary that the minute 292 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: Nittanyahu basically was out of office, disgraced, facing possible and 293 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: jail time for crimes. And then he pulled together a 294 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 2: coalition of people who themselves would never have gotten into 295 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: the coalition, like totally radical people who by themselves were 296 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 2: not going to be part of any other coalition, but 297 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: they had a lot to gain by being He gave 298 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: basically people power who were totally totally radical on the right, 299 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: and part of the deal was that then when they 300 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: got in power, they could do all this radical stuff 301 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: to basically do the Israeli version of own the Libs. 302 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: And so they started taking over the judiciary, limiting the 303 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: power of the Supreme Court, which had been a moderating 304 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: force in Israel against a lot of the extremism, doing 305 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: a lot of just every day stuff, like all these 306 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: crazy religious laws that nobody really thought would ever happen. 307 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: You know, you can't have your place open on Saturday, 308 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: and girls can't stand with boys in public, like all 309 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: this stuff that were totally totally the radical fringe. But 310 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: because he had mobilized this coalition that became the power structure, 311 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: and part of The issue that I think is important 312 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: to recognize is that it's not like there's a moral 313 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: voice of like I'm not going to stand for this, 314 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 2: because everybody in that coalition the minute the minute that 315 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: coalition falls, they are not only not in power, they're 316 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: probably criminally liable for some of the things that are 317 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: happening now and so in a way, so in a way, 318 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: the government potentially is not going to fall by itself. 319 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 2: It's very hard to fracture this coalition because it's like 320 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: a confederation of I was calling it before it could 321 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: federation of dunsas, but I would use a different word 322 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: right now. And so the issue is this coalition is 323 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: like all these people who are clinging to power, and 324 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: the minute that topples, they are all in big trouble. 325 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: So it's funny because like I used to admire a 326 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: coalition system, it's not our two party system. But you 327 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: can see how in the age of fascism that system 328 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: can be hijacked. Also, that's what I think what we're 329 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: seeing in Israel, that in a way that system can 330 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: be hijacked against the will of the people also, and 331 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: so I know there's tons of just profound rage and rightfully, 332 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: so right now. But I just want to highlight that 333 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the people across Israel are also in 334 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: the streets protesting because they've been trying to top all 335 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: this government before October, and then October this moment of 336 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: like I mean, that's kind of what I show in 337 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: the piece, is that the power of emergency authority is 338 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: really powerful and it gives the right to circumvent all 339 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: of these civil liberties and so not ironically, it's not 340 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: just about guns. People that these protests are being surveiled. 341 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: There's all this government surveillance. They're being targeted. I have 342 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 2: a lot of links in the piece to a lot 343 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: of sources that talk about that as well, and so 344 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: in a way, I wrote this piece in part in 345 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: part to give rise to the Israeli protest movement that 346 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: has been there before, but also kind of as a 347 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: warning because the reflection of what people in the Middle 348 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: East have faced and what we could potentially be facing. 349 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: It's just it's a playbook that is one that is 350 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: I find really terrifying, which is that a lot of 351 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: the institutions and structures, like Israel's gun laws, as an example, 352 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: that we've assumed our eternal can be hacked by this playbook. 353 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: You know, I know that we only have a couple 354 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: of minutes left, but I do want to ask you 355 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: this last question, which is that you look at Israeli government, 356 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: you look at coalition government, you look like a multi 357 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: party system. You look at our two party system, and 358 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: it seems to me, Jonathan, that it doesn't matter what 359 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: kind of system you have, that it can be infiltrated 360 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: by right wing fascists. And so as the people of 361 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: Israel are out in the streets, as I saw before 362 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: I came on, have been protesting, what voice do they 363 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: have right now to combat this other than going into 364 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: the street, But there is no change. 365 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 2: I mean, we're seeing the limits of protests. I guess 366 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: the only answer that I can think of right now 367 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: is that there were like six I think Israeli elections 368 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: that were stalemates. It was a long drawn out process 369 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: and the same strategy had been deployed on them which 370 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: is being deployed on us right now, which is this 371 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: Cambridge analyticas style messaging that your vote doesn't matter, everything's 372 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 2: just going to be stuck forever, nothing matters. And so 373 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: this final election that got this coalition into power. Liberals 374 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: they don't have the same categories as we do, so 375 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: liberals kind of meant something different. But the left voted 376 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: roughly the same as they always had. But the right 377 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 2: saw the fracture of the left as an opportunity to 378 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: seize power and quote unquote on Libs, and so they 379 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: voted in record numbers. They behind the scenes had been 380 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: mobilizing all of this voter drive and stuff like that, 381 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: and so the left voted about sixty percent roughly, but 382 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: the right voted like seventy three percent, which had never 383 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: happened before, because they saw this as a chance to 384 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: once and for all make Israel a much more right 385 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 2: wing religious state. And the day after that election, it 386 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 2: was like kind of like our version of Trump. Every 387 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: people were people were in shock. They were in total shock, 388 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: and they're like, oh my god, this my life is over. 389 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: I know a lot of friends of mine moved out 390 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: of the country. The ones who stayed, I think were 391 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 2: right about what was going to happen to their to 392 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: their civil liberties. And so at the point then of 393 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: being out of power, their best response. I mean, people 394 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: like people's grandmothers have been in the street every single day, 395 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: people quit their jobs to protest. People are been stopping 396 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: traffic and lighting fires and and I guess the question is, 397 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: what could they have done different? In retrospect, they could 398 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: have voted more than their opponents before. I think being 399 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: out of power is terrifying, given the forces you can 400 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: mobilize when they're in power now. And I say that 401 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: thinking of us also so foreshadowing with these shitty ass 402 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: choices we have right now. But I'll just say that 403 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: thinking of us also, it's kind of like when I 404 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: interview people and I say what can you do different? 405 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: And they tell me, I wish I could go back 406 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: to the day before the election and have twenty people. 407 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: I know, because it seemed like I had no choice. 408 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 2: But actually, if you want no choice, that's what I 409 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: actually have right now. 410 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,239 Speaker 1: So I wish we could end on a happier note. 411 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: But no, we're just gonna We're just gonna end there today. 412 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: Well one of these days, I mean, let's say really 413 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: quickly that I think at some point in the future 414 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 2: you and I were talking about doing a reading group. 415 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, sorry, because I'm watching the clock, so folks, 416 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: every week, you know, for god, the last three or 417 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: four years, Jonathan and I have been in conversation on 418 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: wookf and Jonathan brought up an idea that I think 419 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: is a really great one, which is to do a 420 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: reading group where we would cover particular articles, whether Jonathan 421 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: wrote them or things that have crossed their paths that 422 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: we're interested in discussing. And so we're going to start 423 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: doing that next week. There are a couple of podcast 424 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: interviews and things, and so I think Jonathan, we should 425 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: probably like share them out on social for the one 426 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: before we record, So if you're not following myself or 427 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: Jonathan at this point, you should, and then we'll link 428 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: in the show description, we'll link to the articles that 429 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: we were discussing on that day, and you know. 430 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 2: We can we can try it like once a month 431 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: or something, see how it goes, and then yeah, take 432 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 2: it from there. 433 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, but we thought it would be it would 434 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: be great because we send each other articles all week long, 435 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: so we want to include you all in that as 436 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: well as always. Jonathan, thank you, Stay hopeful, stay sane. 437 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to the air Fort now for our graduation, 438 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: so I hope I get energy from community travel safe. 439 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: H That is it for me today. Dear friends on 440 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: Woke app. As always, Power to the people and to 441 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.