1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:20,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So did he tell you what we're doing today? No, 2 00:00:21,436 --> 00:00:24,996 Speaker 1: I did tell you more than I usually do. You 3 00:00:25,036 --> 00:00:27,556 Speaker 1: told me a bit. You didn't tell me much. Grapes. 4 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:30,716 Speaker 1: Something about grapes, Yeah, something, that's what I remember, something 5 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:33,596 Speaker 1: about grapes. I'm chatting with PJ Vote and Alex Goldman, 6 00:00:33,876 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 1: the co host of the podcast reply All. It's really 7 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:38,556 Speaker 1: hard to describe. We do all sorts of crazy stories 8 00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: about things that's out true but our true, and it's 9 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:43,996 Speaker 1: a wonderful podcast. Pj's right, you should listen to reply All. 10 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: It's about the Internet, modern life, and how to survive it. Plus, 11 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:51,396 Speaker 1: PG and Alex are a great pair. They're clever, funny, 12 00:00:51,516 --> 00:00:54,276 Speaker 1: and not above using the occasional curse word, as you'll 13 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:56,796 Speaker 1: probably hear in the next half hour. But a real 14 00:00:56,876 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: highlight of reply All for me is when Alex gets 15 00:00:59,436 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 1: going on his favorite topic, graping. There's like this pink 16 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 1: mystery scuff on our floor and I'm like, what is that? 17 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:09,236 Speaker 1: Why can't I get it off? It's making me so 18 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 1: mad and like, no sane person should care about it. 19 00:01:12,036 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: I'm glad I'm work married to you in that life, 20 00:01:14,276 --> 00:01:16,036 Speaker 1: married to you. I feel like we wouldn't live together 21 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: a while. Alex is particularly into griping. It's a way 22 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 1: that he likes to bond with his listeners because, if 23 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 1: we're being honest, griping feels kind of fun. I mean, 24 00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: I like to gripe, My best friends like to gripe, 25 00:01:28,956 --> 00:01:32,756 Speaker 1: My family likes to gripe. It's funny, and griping lets 26 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:34,876 Speaker 1: us connect with the people around us. I one day 27 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:36,316 Speaker 1: some we were the first thing. We were like. We 28 00:01:36,356 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 1: hate all the same things, and most of the time, 29 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 1: venting our frustration seems to make us feel better. Or 30 00:01:41,996 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 1: does it is griping really all it's cracked up to be? 31 00:01:45,676 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 1: Or is this yet another spot? Or our mind is 32 00:01:47,916 --> 00:01:52,316 Speaker 1: leading us astray. Our minds are constantly telling us what 33 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: to do to be happy. But what if our minds 34 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 1: are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, 35 00:01:56,916 --> 00:01:59,236 Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy. 36 00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the 37 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:04,876 Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction. 38 00:02:05,716 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. 39 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: Gripes became a regular part of Reply All by Necessity. 40 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: One of the show's early sponsors was a website hosting 41 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:22,556 Speaker 1: company and PG and Alex had to deal with a 42 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:26,156 Speaker 1: problem that many podcasters face, how to make an ad 43 00:02:26,196 --> 00:02:28,596 Speaker 1: for a company like that that sounds fun to listen 44 00:02:28,636 --> 00:02:31,156 Speaker 1: to and not super cheesy. And then at some point 45 00:02:31,196 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 1: we realized Alex is a habitual griper, and I think 46 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:36,516 Speaker 1: I was saying that you should have a website where 47 00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 1: it's just you're complaining. Then it went from just Alex's 48 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:41,876 Speaker 1: gripes to taking like listener gripes, and the listener grapes 49 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 1: are great because they're almost like a picture of what 50 00:02:44,516 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: the world is like in a given moment. Like there's 51 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 1: like a real feeling to like summer gripes, and like 52 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:52,116 Speaker 1: when world events are really anxiety producing, everyone seems to 53 00:02:52,156 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 1: be like griping in the same direction. The way the 54 00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 1: website works is people just submit grapes and they end 55 00:02:57,196 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: up on a spreadsheet that I can go through whenever 56 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 1: I choose. As it happens, Alex has his laptop open 57 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 1: in his studio. The spreadsheet is huge. I certainly didn't 58 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:08,316 Speaker 1: expect it to become what it is because we do 59 00:03:08,396 --> 00:03:11,196 Speaker 1: one of the ads every three to four months, but 60 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:14,596 Speaker 1: I would say probably twenty to twenty five people leave 61 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:17,396 Speaker 1: grapes on there a day. Really, maybe more. I didn't 62 00:03:17,396 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 1: realize there's that much. There are over thirty thousand grapes 63 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 1: on my spreadsheet. I didn't know. I like to check 64 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:26,236 Speaker 1: the reply all recently submitted grapes because they're pretty funny. 65 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:31,476 Speaker 1: And one recent complaint really spoke to me. Stickers on fruit. Oh, 66 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:35,396 Speaker 1: because a grape isn't just a complaint, like a grape 67 00:03:35,436 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: is a specific kind of complaint, and some complaints don't 68 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:40,596 Speaker 1: make good grapes like that, Like a grape has certain qualities. 69 00:03:40,916 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 1: Talk to me, Alex, how would you how would you 70 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 1: put it? I would describe it as something that is 71 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:50,276 Speaker 1: annoying enough to complain about, but mostly not annoying enough 72 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 1: to do something about. Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's nice. 73 00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 1: If they're like sort of good fiction, they should be 74 00:03:57,196 --> 00:03:59,676 Speaker 1: highly specific and also universal at the same time, Like 75 00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 1: sticker on fruit is really good. Here's a grape we 76 00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: got today at eleven fifty eight am. This is like 77 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 1: a perfect example of one washing my hands after cracking 78 00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:09,916 Speaker 1: eggs and then having hands are two wet to pinch 79 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,116 Speaker 1: and sprinkle salt on your eggs. That's a good gripe. 80 00:04:12,196 --> 00:04:15,276 Speaker 1: It's really good. Yeah, PJ, you said that Alex isn't 81 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:17,516 Speaker 1: a griping like, so why do you like the gripe 82 00:04:17,516 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 1: being so much? I think that probably the strength I 83 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 1: have is that I don't hold anything in. I'm just 84 00:04:26,556 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: like a constant pressure release valve. It's just like a 85 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:31,596 Speaker 1: way to get it out of my head and so 86 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: that the you know, ahead of steam doesn't build up 87 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 1: and I don't become like miserable. It's interesting that you 88 00:04:37,196 --> 00:04:40,276 Speaker 1: say that, because I think sometimes that's how it works. 89 00:04:40,396 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 1: Other times, as a long time Alex could an observer 90 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: an expert. Sometimes I feel like there's a type of 91 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: complaining you'll do where it gets howt your system is gone. 92 00:04:48,396 --> 00:04:50,996 Speaker 1: There's a type of complaining you do where it's actually 93 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:52,556 Speaker 1: just like a chorus to a song where every time 94 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: you sing it, you sing it like slightly louder. But 95 00:04:54,436 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: it's not like PJ only has to hear Alex's louder gripes. 96 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:01,556 Speaker 1: There's also the Internet, which PJ describes as a complain 97 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 1: box for things that don't have complain boxes. We complain 98 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 1: on Twitter, we complain on Reddit, we complain on WhatsApp. 99 00:05:07,556 --> 00:05:09,996 Speaker 1: Any site or service that allows to post a comment 100 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:13,436 Speaker 1: seems to attract gripes like moths to a flame, But 101 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:16,276 Speaker 1: that raises a question. Why do we choose to share 102 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:19,836 Speaker 1: our gripes or willingly read the gripes of total strangers. 103 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 1: I think one thing, it's just like you don't feel 104 00:05:22,636 --> 00:05:26,196 Speaker 1: alone in the world. You're like everyone's encountering this. Like 105 00:05:26,236 --> 00:05:29,676 Speaker 1: I have this theory that when you love somebody, you're like, oh, 106 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 1: they're so nice, they're so great. And people describe the 107 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:34,276 Speaker 1: people they love very vaguely, and when you dislike somebody, 108 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 1: you're like, he's got this weird little walk, like he 109 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 1: thinks he's the Prince of Tennessee, and like blah blah 110 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 1: blah blah. And like what I like about graping complains 111 00:05:41,596 --> 00:05:43,636 Speaker 1: it is like you are noticing the world, you know 112 00:05:43,676 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: what I mean. Griping makes you present. It makes you 113 00:05:46,276 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 1: very very present, And like I can deal with anybody 114 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:51,876 Speaker 1: complaining as long as they're funny about it. And it's 115 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:54,236 Speaker 1: like you're taking the shit of the world and turning 116 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:57,116 Speaker 1: it at least into like an observable moment or something. 117 00:05:57,596 --> 00:06:00,916 Speaker 1: Gripes are a guilty pleasure. They're like sugary candy. We 118 00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: know we shouldn't really indulge too much, but we just 119 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: can't resist, And just like eating too much candy, it's 120 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 1: pretty clear griping too much has a downside. Well, everyone 121 00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:13,836 Speaker 1: thinks I'm a cranky asshole. Yeah, I don't think everyone 122 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 1: thinks you're a cranky asshole. Sarah has several friends who 123 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:19,916 Speaker 1: just call me grumps, so oh okay, yeah everybody thinks 124 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 1: a cranky asshole. Yeah, I think you can make you 125 00:06:21,996 --> 00:06:25,436 Speaker 1: unpleasant company. In the last season of The Happiness Lab, 126 00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 1: we talked about the need to curate our emotional lives 127 00:06:28,396 --> 00:06:31,316 Speaker 1: to make sure we're controlling those feelings that we're exposed to. 128 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 1: Flirting with gripes can demonstrate how witty and cool we are, 129 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:39,476 Speaker 1: but recreational complaining can sometimes turn into a habit, which 130 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:43,076 Speaker 1: means we're constantly surrounded by negative feelings. We used to 131 00:06:43,076 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 1: work with somebody who was like a high level constant graper, 132 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 1: and it wasn't like stickers on fruit. It was like 133 00:06:49,036 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 1: everything sucks. And I remember reaching a point where it's 134 00:06:51,356 --> 00:06:54,356 Speaker 1: like I can't talk to this person anymore because either 135 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:56,556 Speaker 1: I have to argue with them all the time or 136 00:06:56,596 --> 00:06:58,036 Speaker 1: I have to see things the way they see them. 137 00:06:58,076 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 1: And if I see things the way they see them, 138 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: I won't like my life anymore. I'm dying to know 139 00:07:01,956 --> 00:07:08,036 Speaker 1: who you're talking about. Oh okay, yeah, but literally it 140 00:07:08,076 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 1: was like, I can't talk to you anymore. Like I can't, 141 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 1: I don't even want to make small talk, which I've 142 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: never that's the associopath thing to do. I've never done 143 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: that before. And it was a small office. Yeah, it 144 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:17,196 Speaker 1: was a thing where you'd be like, hey, it's a 145 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:19,516 Speaker 1: beautiful day out and then they'd be like, yeah, well 146 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: the sun was burning the back of my neck. I 147 00:07:21,556 --> 00:07:23,996 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, man, even relative to me, this is wild. 148 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 1: That was another level. We all have relationships that center 149 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:31,716 Speaker 1: around swapping gripes and grievances. I mean, there are definitely 150 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 1: certain people in my life who I know I'll covetch 151 00:07:34,356 --> 00:07:36,716 Speaker 1: with as soon as I see them. And if I'm 152 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: being honest about how I end up feeling during and 153 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: after those gripe sessions, it's usually not great. It often 154 00:07:43,276 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 1: ups my stress levels. But the biggest downside to all 155 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 1: this cavetching, at least according to science, is one of 156 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 1: our minds can't see it. Turns out there is an 157 00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 1: opportunity cost to griping, there's something else we could be 158 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:59,476 Speaker 1: doing instead that allows for better social bonding and a 159 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:03,116 Speaker 1: lot more happiness. The Happiness Lab will be back in 160 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: a moment. Certainly, there's that social commiseration component to it, right, 161 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:26,716 Speaker 1: There's a bonding that goes on when we share complaints. 162 00:08:26,876 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 1: I'm talking with doctor Robert Emmons, a professor of psychology 163 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 1: at UC Davis. We're chatting about the upsides of griping. 164 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 1: There's some social benefits. Certainly, it can help connect us 165 00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: together kind of a shared collective grievance, and that can 166 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:41,116 Speaker 1: feel good. There's also the you know, the physiology. I 167 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:43,596 Speaker 1: think it feels good to express the emotional least temporarily, 168 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 1: but in the long run it actually doesn't service very well. 169 00:08:47,036 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: Robert worries that the benefits of griping depends a lot 170 00:08:49,956 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: on the kind of cavetching we're engaging in. Some are 171 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: more detrimental to well being than others, and some are 172 00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 1: perhaps a little bit more facilitative or actually can be 173 00:08:58,676 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 1: adaptive if it results in problem solving or insight. It 174 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 1: turns out that griping for the sake of griping doesn't 175 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:08,276 Speaker 1: make us feel good, but when we express our frustrations 176 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:10,836 Speaker 1: in order to process us a bad situation, to make 177 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:13,516 Speaker 1: sense of it and find a solution that can have 178 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:16,156 Speaker 1: a more positive effect. When people write about a negative 179 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:19,156 Speaker 1: event that happened to them and they express their emotions 180 00:09:19,196 --> 00:09:22,636 Speaker 1: about it, that's not as beneficial as getting some insight 181 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:24,996 Speaker 1: for why the event happened in the first place, or 182 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:27,236 Speaker 1: now what a person can do about it. So you 183 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:30,156 Speaker 1: could say that starts with a complaint, certainly noticing what's 184 00:09:30,196 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 1: going wrong, but the goal is always to move beyond that. 185 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: The problem is we don't always take our griping to 186 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 1: that next level. In fact, if you're a call that 187 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:42,796 Speaker 1: was pretty much how PJ and Alex defined gripes earlier. 188 00:09:43,196 --> 00:09:47,716 Speaker 1: Something that is annoying enough to complain about, but mostly 189 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:50,636 Speaker 1: not annoying enough to do something about. But not doing 190 00:09:50,676 --> 00:09:53,796 Speaker 1: anything about our gripes isn't even the worst part of 191 00:09:53,836 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 1: our urge to complain. The biggest issue is that we 192 00:09:57,036 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 1: get the benefits of griping all wrong. Our minds lie 193 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,876 Speaker 1: to us about how good it will make us feel. Said, 194 00:10:02,876 --> 00:10:06,196 Speaker 1: it's if shown complaining or listening to people complain has 195 00:10:06,196 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: an effect both on the listener as well as the complainer. 196 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 1: It's another case where we do things which are bad 197 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 1: for us, but we don't realize that. Robert examined this 198 00:10:14,156 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: in a classic study back in two thousand and three. 199 00:10:16,836 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 1: He had college students fill out a weekly survey for 200 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: a couple months. He asked a bunch of questions about 201 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:25,756 Speaker 1: the subjects, while being their overall mood, how grateful they 202 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 1: were feeling, and even whether they engaged in healthy habits 203 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,316 Speaker 1: like exercise. Some students were then asked to list five 204 00:10:32,396 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 1: mundane events that had happened during the week, but other 205 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: students were asked to complain not about the big things 206 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: in life, mind you, just the small stuff, the stickers 207 00:10:42,196 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 1: on fruit level problems. They had the typical every day 208 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:48,676 Speaker 1: guarden variety types of hassles related to roommates and finances 209 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:51,236 Speaker 1: and parking problems and professors. Not me, of course, but 210 00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:54,316 Speaker 1: some of the other ones, of course, Robert. But did 211 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 1: giving students the chance to complain about these little annoyances 212 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:00,756 Speaker 1: improve their mood over the ten weeks? The answer was striking. 213 00:11:01,476 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 1: Griping didn't help at all. If anything, people who talked 214 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:07,876 Speaker 1: about their hassles had a worse time. For example, the 215 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 1: griping group wound up exercising almost forty five minutes less 216 00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:14,156 Speaker 1: than those in the control group. But Robert included one 217 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 1: additional group of participants in this study. Subjects in this 218 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:20,636 Speaker 1: third condition showed improved well being relative to the Hassle's 219 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:25,036 Speaker 1: condition and even higher levels of gratitude, more frequent exercise, 220 00:11:25,236 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: and fewer physical symptoms like headaches and stomach problems. What 221 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 1: were the people in this well being supercharged group asked 222 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:34,676 Speaker 1: to do? They were told to think back over the 223 00:11:34,716 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 1: past week and write down up to five things that 224 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: they were thankful for. They were asked to do the 225 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:44,076 Speaker 1: opposite of griping, focus on things you're grateful for. Robert 226 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:47,476 Speaker 1: called this the blessings condition. In this and lots of 227 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:51,116 Speaker 1: other studies, Robert has found that counting your blessings leads 228 00:11:51,116 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 1: to a host of positive outcomes. I used to be 229 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:55,276 Speaker 1: able to keep track of all the findings, but now 230 00:11:55,316 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 1: it seems like almost every day and in every way, 231 00:11:57,596 --> 00:11:59,796 Speaker 1: we're learning more and more ways in which gratitude works 232 00:12:00,156 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 1: that it drives good outcomes in people's lives. So, whether 233 00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: you're talking about emotional health, relational satisfaction, physical well being, 234 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 1: you see that gratitude matters The stats that Robert cites 235 00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 1: in his book, The Little Book of Gratitude are pretty incredible. 236 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 1: People who count their blessings show twenty three percent lower 237 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:24,756 Speaker 1: levels of stress hormones like cortisol. They reduce their dietary 238 00:12:24,836 --> 00:12:28,716 Speaker 1: fat intake by as much as twenty five percent. People 239 00:12:28,756 --> 00:12:31,716 Speaker 1: suffering from chronic pain show a ten percent improvement in 240 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:35,356 Speaker 1: sleep quality and depression levels that are nineteen percent lower. 241 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: Science shows that gratitude also increases our resilience. In contrast 242 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 1: to griping, focusing on the good things in life seems 243 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 1: to be a strategy that allows you to take action 244 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: in order to fix the bad things. We know from 245 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:51,916 Speaker 1: the studies that that gratitude helps us recover from loss 246 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,436 Speaker 1: and trauma. It helps us to deal with the slow 247 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:56,676 Speaker 1: drip of every day's stress, as well as the massive 248 00:12:57,076 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 1: personal upheavals and the face of suffering and pain and 249 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: loss and trials and tribulations. Gratitude is absolutely sensual. It's 250 00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 1: part of our psychological immune system. But the biggest benefit 251 00:13:08,036 --> 00:13:10,836 Speaker 1: of counting your blessings, according to Robert, is that it 252 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: connects us with other people. Yes, that one good thing 253 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 1: that griping gives us, we can get that kind of 254 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:21,356 Speaker 1: relationship boost from gratitude too, right, absolutely, I mean one 255 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:23,836 Speaker 1: of the benefits of gratitude is that it connects us 256 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: so deeply with other people. And a colleague of mind 257 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:30,596 Speaker 1: social psychologist at a Chapel Hill, North Carolina and Sarah Algo, 258 00:13:30,956 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: talks about gratitude as basically the interpersonal emotion. It is 259 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:39,836 Speaker 1: the find, remind, and bind emotion. Sarah and her colleagues 260 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 1: have found that practicing gratitude can completely shift people's mindset 261 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 1: about a personal relationship. Taking time to think gratefully about 262 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:49,836 Speaker 1: a friend or partner makes you spontaneously notice more positive 263 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 1: qualities about that person. It makes it easier to remember 264 00:13:53,316 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 1: happier memories with that person, and drives us to spend 265 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:59,236 Speaker 1: more time with them. And all of these little mindset 266 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: shifts wind up making us feel more connected. Sarah calls 267 00:14:02,796 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: gratitude a booster shot for our relationships. The positive evidence 268 00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 1: for focusing on the good things in life are pretty clear, 269 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 1: but it's still not something that comes naturally to many 270 00:14:13,356 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 1: of us. If you're going to express sentiment online, being 271 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:18,596 Speaker 1: like I hate a nice sandwich, I'm really grateful to 272 00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 1: be alive today is like it comes across I think 273 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 1: as well dopey. I think I think the problem with 274 00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 1: niceness and goodness and happiness as express online is like 275 00:14:27,236 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: it can feel you feel like you're bragging. It can 276 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:33,356 Speaker 1: feel like you can feel insincere. Enguelan since here, yeah, yeah, 277 00:14:33,436 --> 00:14:36,636 Speaker 1: PG and Alex kind of nailed it here. Gratitude does 278 00:14:36,716 --> 00:14:39,116 Speaker 1: feel a little dopey. Robert knows that if he's going 279 00:14:39,156 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 1: to get us all signed up to that blessing's condition, 280 00:14:41,516 --> 00:14:43,756 Speaker 1: he's going to have to change that attitude. I like 281 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:47,676 Speaker 1: to say that gratitude really is an old fashioned idea, 282 00:14:48,076 --> 00:14:51,036 Speaker 1: but the science makes it brand new. In fact, we 283 00:14:51,076 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: know now from the science that gratitude actually does deliver 284 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: on its promise and on its potential. To paraphrase Robert, 285 00:14:57,556 --> 00:15:01,836 Speaker 1: gratitude seems dopey, but it works. Getting past the cheese 286 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:05,356 Speaker 1: takes effort, but it's definitely effort worth doing. Part of 287 00:15:05,356 --> 00:15:06,916 Speaker 1: why I do this, you know, part of why I 288 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 1: study gratitude and try to con people that gratitude is 289 00:15:10,316 --> 00:15:13,076 Speaker 1: the best approach to life is just to convince myself, 290 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:15,596 Speaker 1: is to remind myself that every day I need to 291 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: practice gratitude. Even though Robert's an expert on this. It 292 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 1: didn't always come easy. I was always you know, planning ahead. 293 00:15:22,836 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 1: I was always you know, the person who said, Okay, 294 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 1: well I'll be happy when such and such happens, when 295 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 1: I you know, get into college, when I get into 296 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: graduate school, and when I get tenued, when I get 297 00:15:32,276 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: I was always delaying or putting off happiness. And I 298 00:15:36,036 --> 00:15:38,236 Speaker 1: think it was because I wasn't grateful enough for my 299 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: current situation. That I had everything I needed perfectly to 300 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: be happy and to be grateful, to be content in 301 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: the moment, but I was always looking for something bigger 302 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: and better and brighter, you know, down the road. Doing 303 00:15:51,396 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 1: these sorts of you know, interviews, writing the books, doing 304 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 1: the research, giving the talks is just really almost like 305 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 1: a personal journey for me to become more grateful. So 306 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 1: for people who are kind of in the in the 307 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: complaining camp or like, you know, think that that's that's 308 00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:09,076 Speaker 1: focusing on the hassles is where it is any last 309 00:16:09,276 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 1: advice for them to get on the gratitude bandwagon. So 310 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 1: I think a really good thing to do is just 311 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,236 Speaker 1: take one daily hassle, some area that you struggle with, 312 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 1: and try to view that through a lens of gratitude. 313 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:23,116 Speaker 1: Take the bad thing that you are most likely by 314 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 1: default to complain about, and see if you can extract 315 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 1: at least one benefit from that bad thing. That's something 316 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: that anyone can do, whether or not we complain by 317 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:36,076 Speaker 1: nature or by practice. I think you know, once we 318 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:38,316 Speaker 1: start doing that, we can see that can shift us 319 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:39,836 Speaker 1: that the house. We're not going to go away. We're 320 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:41,276 Speaker 1: always going to have those, but at least we'll have 321 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:43,996 Speaker 1: a backdrop by which we can view those with some 322 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:47,156 Speaker 1: degree of hope and trust in the future and positivity 323 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: after the break. We're going to take Robert's advice to 324 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 1: the next level because science shows that there's one way 325 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:56,076 Speaker 1: to experience gratitude that doesn't just boost your well being 326 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:58,676 Speaker 1: in the moment, It can make you happier for a long, 327 00:16:58,756 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 1: long time, like for over a month. I wanted to 328 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: try out these bold scientific claims directly, and I knew 329 00:17:05,596 --> 00:17:08,356 Speaker 1: just the subjects. You guys don't mind being guinea pigs, 330 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:21,236 Speaker 1: nor the Happiness lab will be right back. This exercise, allegedly, 331 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:24,076 Speaker 1: according to science, can boost your mood not just for 332 00:17:24,116 --> 00:17:28,436 Speaker 1: the rest of the day, but for over a whole month. Really. Yeah. 333 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:31,156 Speaker 1: In two thousand and five, psychologist Marty Seligman and his 334 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:34,596 Speaker 1: colleagues recruited over five hundred people to try a bunch 335 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:38,716 Speaker 1: of different happiness interventions. Simple behavior is designed to quickly 336 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:41,756 Speaker 1: boost well being, but Seligman also wanted to test whether 337 00:17:41,796 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 1: these interventions caused sustained improvements and happiness and mood like 338 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:49,356 Speaker 1: ones that lasted for weeks and weeks. One of these 339 00:17:49,396 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: interventions was called a gratitude visit. Here's how it works. 340 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:55,516 Speaker 1: You think of someone you care about a lot, someone 341 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: you're really grateful for, but also someone you've never really thanked. 342 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:02,756 Speaker 1: Then you sit down and write that person a genuine, 343 00:18:02,756 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 1: heartfelt letter. You explain why that person has had such 344 00:18:06,356 --> 00:18:09,236 Speaker 1: a meaningful impact on your life. And when you're done, 345 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:11,836 Speaker 1: rather than mailing the letter or sending a quick email, 346 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 1: you ask to meet them in person. And so when 347 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: I went to interview PG and Alex, I just happened 348 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:21,916 Speaker 1: to bring along some happiness lab notepaper. We have a 349 00:18:21,956 --> 00:18:24,836 Speaker 1: little project for you all. Are we doing gratitude journalism? 350 00:18:25,276 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 1: Oh my god, here's your prompt. I want you to 351 00:18:28,436 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: each write a quick letter of thanks to each other. 352 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: You want to express your thanks in a way of 353 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:36,396 Speaker 1: something you've not expressed to each other, and so you're 354 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 1: just going to scribble some stuff down, Okay. Well, PG 355 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 1: and Alex are working on their letters. I wanted to 356 00:18:41,116 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: dig a bit more into the science of how this 357 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:46,676 Speaker 1: intervention works and why, like PG and Alex, many of 358 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: us seem to dread openly expressing gratitude. I'm Nicholas Eppily. 359 00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 1: You can call me Nick. I'm a professor of behavioral 360 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 1: science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. 361 00:18:55,636 --> 00:18:57,356 Speaker 1: I study mind reading for a living. I study how 362 00:18:57,396 --> 00:18:59,556 Speaker 1: people think about each other's thought and some beliefs and attitudes, 363 00:18:59,556 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 1: and mostly how people screw that up and misunderstand each 364 00:19:02,276 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 1: other a lot. Nick does lots of experiments in which 365 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 1: he forces people to do stuff they think is going 366 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,436 Speaker 1: to feel really awkward, but winds up making and feel 367 00:19:09,436 --> 00:19:12,716 Speaker 1: happier than they expect. If you listen to Season one, 368 00:19:12,836 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 1: you might remember the guy who forced people to talk 369 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 1: to strangers on a train. That was Nick. You give 370 00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:21,076 Speaker 1: somebody else a compliment on a given day, you could 371 00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:24,076 Speaker 1: sit down and write a gratitude letter to somebody else. 372 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 1: And so what's of interest for me is a psychologist, 373 00:19:26,236 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 1: is why aren't we doing those things? Writing gratitude letters 374 00:19:29,676 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: we know makes people feel happier. Most people are listening 375 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 1: to your podcast today didn't do that today. Question is 376 00:19:36,796 --> 00:19:39,556 Speaker 1: why not? Why didn't you do that if that makes 377 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: you feel good? The answer is that we just get 378 00:19:42,396 --> 00:19:47,076 Speaker 1: the consequences of expressing gratitude all wrong. When participants here 379 00:19:47,116 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 1: they need to sincerely convey their thanks to someone's face, 380 00:19:50,196 --> 00:19:54,036 Speaker 1: they usually have a pretty strong reaction. They're thinking, oh 381 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 1: my god, this is going to feel cheesy. One of 382 00:19:56,516 --> 00:19:58,196 Speaker 1: the things that we find here, like we do in 383 00:19:58,236 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 1: so many other contexts, is that people just underestimate the 384 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: positive impact that their social engagement will have on other people, 385 00:20:06,356 --> 00:20:08,556 Speaker 1: and therefore it makes them reluctant to do it, which 386 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:10,916 Speaker 1: causes them to miss out on opportunities that would make 387 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:14,116 Speaker 1: them feel good too. Nick didn't experiment asking subjects to 388 00:20:14,156 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 1: do a gratitude letter, but before they started, he asked 389 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 1: them to make some predictions. How happy will the recipient 390 00:20:20,316 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 1: be about getting the letter, how surprised will they be, 391 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:26,316 Speaker 1: and how awkward will they feel? I husked PG and 392 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 1: Alex the same thing. Actually talk through what it's feeling 393 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:31,676 Speaker 1: like if you're trying to write it stressful and I 394 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 1: can hear Alex writing so more stressful. I just wrote 395 00:20:34,676 --> 00:20:44,076 Speaker 1: so far, Oh guy, dear Alex M. How are you feeling, 396 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,676 Speaker 1: Alex weird? Because I feel like I'm gonna have to 397 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:50,196 Speaker 1: read it. I wish I right about that there's some possibility. Yeah, 398 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 1: people say nice things to me like actually shuts my 399 00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 1: brain down, like I can't respond, like I don't know 400 00:20:55,156 --> 00:21:01,276 Speaker 1: how to respond, just like public expressions of gratitude and kindness, 401 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: they just make me feel nervous, like they make me 402 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:09,676 Speaker 1: feel vulnerable. How do you think PJS going to react 403 00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:12,236 Speaker 1: to the letter? PG is going to do a thing, 404 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: this thing that he always does, which is his eyes 405 00:21:14,836 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 1: will get wide and he's like, oh, that's really nice, 406 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: thank you. That's fucked up. I got you pegged son 407 00:21:21,236 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: on a scale of one not really that impressed to 408 00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:25,236 Speaker 1: ten he's really touched. Where is he going to be? 409 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:29,956 Speaker 1: Probably an eight PG at a scale of one to ten. 410 00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:32,316 Speaker 1: How do you think Alex is gonna feel after this? 411 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:37,476 Speaker 1: I think also probably around an eight right, probably higher? No, 412 00:21:37,676 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 1: probably about Yeah. I can't newly wait to game him 413 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 1: as well as he canna do meet Like, I don't 414 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:46,716 Speaker 1: know what is Maybe I'll say thanks Bud. I wouldn't 415 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: say bud. You say bit a lot times when you're touched. 416 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 1: So those are PG and Alex's predictions, but Nick's experimental 417 00:21:52,716 --> 00:21:55,396 Speaker 1: data suggests they'll both be wrong. We found that the 418 00:21:56,036 --> 00:22:00,476 Speaker 1: letter writers consistently underestimate how positive the recipients are going 419 00:22:00,516 --> 00:22:04,716 Speaker 1: to feel. That the letter writers underestimate how surprised the 420 00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:08,476 Speaker 1: recipient will be about the content, underestimate how happy the 421 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,956 Speaker 1: recipient will feel. They predict recipients will be happy recipients 422 00:22:11,956 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 1: are even happier than that. They're basically at the ceiling 423 00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 1: of our measure, And they overestimate how awkward the recipient 424 00:22:17,796 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 1: is going to feel. When we think about sincerely expressing 425 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 1: thanks to someone, we assume it's going to feel weird 426 00:22:23,676 --> 00:22:28,156 Speaker 1: for everyone involved, But that's totally wrong. People love hearing 427 00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:30,556 Speaker 1: our gratitude. And just put yourself in the shoes of 428 00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:35,236 Speaker 1: a recipient for a minute. You've got somebody who has 429 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 1: valued something that you did for years and hasn't told 430 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 1: you about this, And you know, the more it matters 431 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:46,316 Speaker 1: to them, the more depth they go into, how does 432 00:22:46,356 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 1: it feel to receive something like that? Really really really good? Right? 433 00:22:51,516 --> 00:22:56,556 Speaker 1: And every professor I know somewhere in their office has 434 00:22:56,596 --> 00:23:00,916 Speaker 1: a collection of gratitude letters that they've received from students. Everybody. 435 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: Mine is right next to my office. Choeah, Mine's in 436 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:09,996 Speaker 1: my bedroom drawer. Actually there you go. Yeah, everybody keeps those, 437 00:23:10,076 --> 00:23:12,596 Speaker 1: I promise you. So why are we so bad at this? 438 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:15,276 Speaker 1: Like even I, as a psychologist, just don't get the 439 00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: intuition when I think about it, that it's going to 440 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:19,116 Speaker 1: be as meaningful. I think it's going to be awkward. Like, 441 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: where does this misconception come from? It's crazy, It's not crazy, 442 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: it's psychology. It's perspective. So that's the big problem here. 443 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:28,796 Speaker 1: So in all of these social interactions, you've got two 444 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: minds going on. You've got the mind of the agent, 445 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:34,276 Speaker 1: the mind of the actor, the person who's starting the interaction, 446 00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 1: person who's writing the letter or whatever it is. And 447 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 1: then you've got the mind of the person receiving the act. 448 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 1: And if we know anything in psychology, it's that bridging 449 00:23:43,636 --> 00:23:46,436 Speaker 1: those two minds is super hard. There's a gap there, 450 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:50,076 Speaker 1: and the gap is between me writing it and you 451 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:53,556 Speaker 1: reading it. Now, what's my perspective when I'm writing it? 452 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:55,396 Speaker 1: So I'm having to come up with all the words, 453 00:23:55,596 --> 00:23:58,596 Speaker 1: and I'm revealing all this personal stuff, and I'm having 454 00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:01,116 Speaker 1: to get the words just right, and I'm you know, 455 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: I'm worried. Am I saying this sentence? Am I really 456 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 1: expressing what I feel? Am I articulating it just right? 457 00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:11,476 Speaker 1: Does that sound weird? I'm focused on all the words 458 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:14,756 Speaker 1: that I'm saying, right, I'm focused on my competence. How 459 00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 1: good of a letter writer? Am I? The sort of 460 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:20,756 Speaker 1: competence focus is definitely what was playing out with the 461 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:24,316 Speaker 1: reply all guys with a dash of mild competitiveness thrown 462 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:27,476 Speaker 1: into the mix writing a fucking novel over there? Come on? Man, Wow, 463 00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: it does kind of feel like a competition of who's 464 00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 1: writing the most right now? And I will lie, yeah, 465 00:24:33,076 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 1: it feels awful done. Being them first doesn't mean you 466 00:24:43,676 --> 00:24:46,036 Speaker 1: did better. I know you're like the Q like finishes 467 00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 1: the test right away and like walks out cartway ling 468 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 1: and then gets a d I'm saying such a nice shit. 469 00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 1: Mat All you need is like two sentences. According to Nick, 470 00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: Pugie and Alex need to relax. Their letters aren't going 471 00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:00,956 Speaker 1: to be graded like some AP English exam actors. Attend 472 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 1: to the words they're saying, to their competence and so 473 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,996 Speaker 1: they're worried about it being awkward and weird and all 474 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:09,756 Speaker 1: of that stuff. The recipients couldn't care us about that, 475 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:12,756 Speaker 1: or don't care very much about that. They care about 476 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 1: the meaning of what you're saying, the warmth that you're conveying, 477 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: that you're reaching out to them and expressing gratitude, and 478 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:26,916 Speaker 1: that is just super powerful. Oh my god, it's time 479 00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 1: so the guys exchange their letters. Can you even read 480 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:32,316 Speaker 1: my handwriting? Yeah, I'm sure I can. It's pretty bad. 481 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:39,076 Speaker 1: Mine's pretty bad. Okay, PJ. Thank you for fielding all 482 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,836 Speaker 1: the annoying HR stuff lately and for being sensitive to 483 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 1: my mental health struggles. I love working with you, even 484 00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:50,276 Speaker 1: though I even though you vaped too much, even though 485 00:25:50,316 --> 00:25:52,676 Speaker 1: I vaped too much. And it looks like it's signed 486 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:56,676 Speaker 1: by Baba. It says Alex, I was supposed to be 487 00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:05,676 Speaker 1: a heart. Oh that's really nice. Fuck Ah. That's the 488 00:26:05,716 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 1: way that we deal with each other's coming us by'm 489 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 1: laughing at and mocking it. Fee it is christ all right, 490 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:12,796 Speaker 1: here we go. Dear Alex, thank you for being a 491 00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:15,436 Speaker 1: friend and collaborator and weirdo partner in crime for the 492 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:18,836 Speaker 1: past decade. You make me laugh more than anybody. And 493 00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: I can't imagine going through the ups and downs of 494 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 1: this decade without you as my partner. Love you, buddy, 495 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:31,116 Speaker 1: Thanks Bud. All right, quick skill One's ten. How are 496 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: you feeling like eight? Or nine? Yeah? More like nine? Yeah. 497 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 1: PG and Alex performed exactly like Nick's subjects. They knew 498 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,796 Speaker 1: the letters were going to feel good, but they underestimated 499 00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 1: just how good. And I thought they definitely seemed happier 500 00:26:46,836 --> 00:26:51,636 Speaker 1: after the activity. Yeah, it's nice. Now, in theory, if 501 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:53,436 Speaker 1: I came back like a month later, you'd still be 502 00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:55,796 Speaker 1: like slightly more above baseline than you were. That's what 503 00:26:55,836 --> 00:27:00,516 Speaker 1: the data suggests. Really, yeah, which is crazy. That's crazy. 504 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 1: How much of a boost When Marty Seligman made his 505 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:06,316 Speaker 1: test subjects read their gratitude letters, they showed a significant 506 00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:09,236 Speaker 1: bump in well being. They gained about five points on 507 00:27:09,236 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: a hundred point happiness survey known as the Steen Happiness Index. 508 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: But what's most impressive is that participants stayed boosted by 509 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:18,916 Speaker 1: at least a few points on that test for an 510 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: entire month, which is kind of crazy. A whole month 511 00:27:22,836 --> 00:27:25,276 Speaker 1: just by reading a short little letter. Yeah, it's like 512 00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 1: you just gave your antidepression medication like performance enhancing drug 513 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 1: for the podcast it. I'm not sure if these letters 514 00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 1: are going to have a huge bump in their reply 515 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: all mood for weeks to come, but they definitely made 516 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:39,396 Speaker 1: PJ and Alex a little happier during that interview, and 517 00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: despite all their initial predictions, PJ and Alex ended up 518 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:46,356 Speaker 1: leaving the experiment feeling more positive. We're good. That was awesome, 519 00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:51,636 Speaker 1: you guys. Our mind tells us that openly celebrating our 520 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,076 Speaker 1: blessings or sincerely expressing our thanks to people will feel 521 00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:58,156 Speaker 1: awkward and weird. We think it'd be better to bond 522 00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:00,276 Speaker 1: with the people we care about in other ways, like 523 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:04,716 Speaker 1: having a constant gripefest. But that intuition is wrong even 524 00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 1: for expert level gripers, the ones like Alex, who can 525 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:10,516 Speaker 1: make us really laugh when complain I had the DVD 526 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:14,356 Speaker 1: from for like four months for like a year. Yeah, 527 00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:16,916 Speaker 1: that's a grape right there. The songs shows that the 528 00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:19,356 Speaker 1: cost are our constant gripe bing is bigger than we think. 529 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 1: We're getting ourselves and others all worked up without really 530 00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:26,476 Speaker 1: addressing the problems we face, but we're also missing out 531 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 1: on better ways to bond with the people around us 532 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: because we don't realize how good expressing our thanks will 533 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:36,116 Speaker 1: make us feel. And so I, for one, I'm going 534 00:28:36,196 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 1: to try to take this evidence to heart. The next 535 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:40,596 Speaker 1: time I'm at dinner with a friend. I'm going to 536 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: resist the urge to talk only about the annoying stuff 537 00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: in life, and I'm going to scale back some of 538 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:49,036 Speaker 1: my online gripe posting too. Instead, I'm going to take 539 00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:51,836 Speaker 1: a bit more time to focus on the blessings, starting 540 00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:54,436 Speaker 1: with the fact that you listen to my podcast. So 541 00:28:54,716 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: thanks podcast listener. I'm really proud that you're here, and 542 00:28:57,756 --> 00:28:59,876 Speaker 1: I hope that you'll join me for the next episode 543 00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab by Doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness 544 00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:17,396 Speaker 1: Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley with 545 00:29:17,476 --> 00:29:20,356 Speaker 1: the help of Pete Naton. Our original music was composed 546 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:23,876 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by 547 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 1: Evan Viola. The show was edited by Sophie mckibbon and 548 00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 1: fact checked by Joseph Fridman. Special thanks to mil Lavelle, 549 00:29:31,236 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 1: Carlie mcgliorre Heather Fame, Julia Barton, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanag 550 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:40,156 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg and my agent Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab 551 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and by me, 552 00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos,