1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: All right, okay. It is August August twenty eight, twenty 2 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: twenty apart from only four o two pm. A special 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: agent Scott Dolphroom with a special agent Byron Mitchell chs 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: for meat with Zebidias Hall. Thank you. You can hear 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: the show I put in my front pocket, right, yeah, okay, 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: I got it. It's late afternoon on a warm day 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: in Denver, Colorado. It's drizzling outside, and Michael Adam Windeck 8 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: or the Second or Mickey as he prefers, is sitting 9 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: in the backseat of an FBI car. Two federal agents 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: are with him, and one of them, FBI Special Agent 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: Scott Dolshroom, has just handed Mickey a small hidden camera. 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: Mickey turns the camera to his face, shooting from an 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: unflattering angle below his chin. You can see Mickey's thin 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: red mustach and scraggly goatee that's turning gray. He's propped 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: his large sunglasses on his forehead and he's looking straight 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: down into the tiny camera lens. Mickey is not ready 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: for us close up video. Look good, yea, yeah, look canceled. 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Not as handsome as that kid. Mickey points to someone 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: outside walking past the car, and then he opens the 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: car door to leave. All right, so you guys. The 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: FBI agents tell him to remember his instructions, which were 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: given to him before the camera started recording. Yep, I 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: got it, Thanks Mom, Thanks Dad. Mickey then walks to 24 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: his car, the Silver Hearse, and places the FBI's camera 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: on the pass in your seat, Mickey looks down toward 26 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: the camera and addresses the FBI agents who are watching 27 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: the live feed remotely. I got a song for you, guys. 28 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: Mickey has good reason to feel patriotic in this moment. 29 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: The FBI has signed him up as an informant or 30 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: in the FBI's term of art, a confidential human source, 31 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: and Mickey's getting paid thousands of dollars every few weeks 32 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: cash and Mickey He's got a very specific assignment from 33 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: his employers at the FBI, go after his new friend, 34 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: the young black activist zeb Hall, and find a way 35 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: to bring federal charges against him. As the song ends, 36 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: Mickey again looks down toward the FBI camera. America. I'm 37 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: Trevor Aaronson from Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. This is 38 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: Alphabet Voice, Episode three, Black Identity Extremism, So to Come 39 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: right out and say it. Mickey Windecker wasn't a badass 40 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: ANTIFA warrior after all, as activists like Zeb Hall had thought. 41 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: He was an informant, a snitch working for the FBI, 42 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: which seems to go against everything Mickey claims to be right. 43 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: Remember his little life rule. I have an old biker 44 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: saying which is called fuck the three piece, the politicians, 45 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: the press, and the lease. It's just the way it is. 46 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: Fuck the three peas. Yeah, turns out that's bullshit, Fuck 47 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: the two peas. Maybe because this Mickey guy, he's in 48 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: bed with the police, and the cops are not only 49 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: helping him, they're paying him. Today, the FBI has more 50 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: than fifteen thousand registered informants, and in the summer of 51 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Mickey is one of them. That conversation you 52 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: heard in the last episode when Mickey and Zeb we're 53 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: talking about training at Zeb's apartment, Mickey, on his own initiative, 54 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: had secretly recorded the whole thing and delivered it to 55 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: the FBI, apparently in the hopes of getting hired on 56 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: as an informant. I need your help in doing this, 57 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: but obsously you're riding alone on fire. Well, here's the 58 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: day you have and that's work from a route to 59 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: is you have to decide where what you're going to do. 60 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: You know, I can't see her and tell you, oh, yeah, 61 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: you should totally like blow up rich neighborhoods to shoot 62 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: the white people in the neighborhoods, you know, and burned 63 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: the Federal courthouse down, and she like that that's something 64 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: I can't tell you to do it. This recording ended 65 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: up being Mickey's audition tape for the FBI. The official 66 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: explanation for how Mickey Windecker became an informant can be 67 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: found in FBI reports internal investigation reports focused on racial 68 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: justice demonstrators in Denver. These reports aren't public, and the 69 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: FBI didn't intend to have them out there. Maybe not. Ever, 70 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: they were provided to me, along with Mickey's undercover recordings, 71 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: by someone who was deeply concerned about the FBI surveillance 72 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: and infiltration of black activist groups. According to the FBI's reports, 73 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: Mickey had returned to Denver after being a volunteer fighter 74 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: with the Peshmerga, the Kurdish military force in Iraq that 75 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: was fighting the Islamic State or ISIS. Mickey told the 76 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: FBI and I'm quoting here from the port that he 77 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: found a sense of purpose and honor there and made 78 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: an oath to always fight against threats, both foreign and domestic. 79 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: War with ISIS Kurdish troops in a frontline battle with 80 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: an enemy that took their land, Mickey was among dozens 81 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: of Americans who volunteered to fight for the Peshmerga. With them, 82 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 1: a half dozen Americans veterans of the war in Iraq 83 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: back his volunteers. Once back in Denver, Mickey started participating 84 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: in the protests following George Floyd's death, and he saw 85 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: what was, in his view, a new domestic threat. Mickey 86 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: said he witnessed protesters damaging property and threatening violence. So 87 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: Mickey started providing information to police in the Denver area. 88 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: Local police there then introduced him to the FBI as 89 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: part of something known as the Joint Terrorism Task Force, 90 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: which is a partnership between local cops and the FBI. 91 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: Every major metropolitan region United States has a Joint Terrorism 92 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: Task Force or JTTF. Mickey's motivation for being an informant was, 93 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: and again I'm quoting from an internal FBI report, to 94 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: fight terrorists, and Mickey believed that quote people who participate 95 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: in violent civil unrest are terrorists. So Mickey the big 96 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: bad isis Hunter just back from Iraq now has a 97 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: new target, racial justice protesters, whom he considers terrorists. You 98 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: want to know something, It wasn't just Mickey, Almost the 99 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: entire FBI thought this way too. More after the break, 100 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: FBI reports about Mickey's work as an informant referred to 101 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: racial justice demonstrators as anti government extremists, which is one 102 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: of the ideologies the FBI classifies as domestic terrorism. During 103 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, the FBI and the Justice Department came 104 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: up with a new catch all category to define a 105 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: type of domestic terrorism from black Americans. They called it 106 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: black identity extremism, a new and rising form in the 107 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: FBI's view of anti government extremism. It's a great question, 108 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: what is a black identity extremist? I think we're all 109 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: trying to figure that out. Nobody knows, in part because 110 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. This is racial justice activist Malkia Devitch Surrill, 111 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: speaking on the radio and television program Democracy Now during 112 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: the first year of the Trump administration. It's a term 113 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: fabricated by the FBI, constructed, and it has a history, 114 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: I mean for a very long time, for many decades 115 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: in this country, probably centuries, the FBI has criminalized black descent. 116 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, the FBI's counter Terrorism Division released a 117 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: twelve page intelligence report that claimed black identity extremists we're 118 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: motivated by police brutality to target law enforcement officers with 119 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: violence and even murder. The FBI's theory was that racial 120 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: justice activists had become radicalized following a police officer's fatal 121 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, in twenty fourteen, 122 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: which sparked weeks of violent clashes between protesters and police 123 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: and brought international attention to the Black Lives Matter movement. 124 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: Using the same tactical get up and the same weapon, 125 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: where we've come to expect an urban warfare in Iraq 126 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: and Afghanistan, police and Ferguson, Missouri once again had to 127 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: put down and head off violence in the street. The 128 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen FBI report, inspired by the events in Ferguson, 129 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: says quote black identity extremist perceptions of police brutality against 130 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: African Americans spurred an increase in premeditated retaliatory lethal violence 131 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: against law enforcement and will very likely serve as justification 132 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: for such violence. The FBI's evidence for this theory of 133 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: rising black political violence it was pretty thin, resting on 134 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: a series of a half dozen crimes committed by black 135 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: Americans over a three year period that had no apparent 136 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: connection with one another and no unifying political ideology. It 137 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: talks about black activism against police violence and police racism, 138 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: even though it says purported violence as if they somehow 139 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: it isn't clear that that's a real thing, was a 140 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: sign of somebody being a black identity extremist. This is 141 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: Michael German, a former FBI undercover agent. German regularly testifies 142 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: before Congress. But FBI policies and practices, and what you 143 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: saw in that report was six incidents of crimes that 144 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: were unrelated to one another over a three year period. 145 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: These six people didn't know each other, the crimes weren't related. 146 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: There was nothing similar about them but their black identity. 147 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: And that's why they called it a black identity movement. 148 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: That it was assuming that any black activist who was 149 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: protesting police violence and police racism was part of a 150 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: violent movement to overthrow the government or to kill police again. 151 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: This report was released just a few years before the 152 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: George Floyd protests in twenty twenty. The revelation that the 153 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: FBI had come up with a black identity extremism category 154 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: for domestic terrorism was met with widespread criticism and the 155 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: news media and on Capitol Hill, particularly given that Americans 156 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: at the time were seeing increasing violence from white supremacists 157 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: and other far right groups. Many have also noted the 158 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: FBI memo was dated August third, only a few days 159 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: before the deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, where 160 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: white supremacist Ku Klux Klan members and neo Nazis killed 161 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: an anti racist protester, Heather Higher and injured dozens more. 162 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: In response to the controversy that they had created, the 163 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: FBI came up with the term racially motivated violent extremism, 164 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: bundling to into a single category violence from both white 165 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: supremacists and so called black identity extremists. This new category 166 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: combines incidents involving white supremacists with a new category that 167 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: we've discussed before, called black identity extremists, and so that's 168 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: really problematic to me. In twenty nineteen, Senator Corey Booker 169 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: of New Jersey question the FBI Director Christopher Ray about this, 170 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: When did the FBI eliminate the white supremacist category in 171 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: favor of that racially motivated violent extremism category. One of 172 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: the points that we've tried to emphasize to our folks 173 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: across all of these vectors is that we only investigate violence. 174 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: We don't investigate extremism. We don't investigate ideology, we don't 175 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: investigate rhetoric. It doesn't matter how repugnant, how abhorrent, or 176 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so what we have tried to 177 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: do by our recategorization is make clear that it's about 178 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: the violence, not about the igloogy. Director Ray then disclosed 179 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: for the first time that the FBI had abandoned the 180 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: term black identity extremism. Forgive me, this is news to me. 181 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: So you do you no longer use the black identity extremism. 182 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: That's no more. That's great, that's great news. So nobody 183 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: is being surveiled or investigated on the black at any extremism. 184 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: We don't use We don't use that terminology anymore. We 185 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: don't use that terminology anymore, Ray said, But he didn't 186 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: answer the other part of Senator Booker's question, were people 187 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: still being surveiled and investigated is suspected of being black 188 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: identity extremists? And the answer to that question was and 189 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: is yes. The work of Mickey Windecker is perhaps the 190 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 1: clearest example of this type of investigation by the FBI. 191 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: Back in Denver, the FBI had no reason to suspect 192 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: that racial justice activists were ready to step over the 193 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: line toward political violence and terrorism, but the FBI, using Mickey, 194 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: started infiltrating these groups anyway, answered up dropping not so 195 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: subtle hints to anyone willing to listen. Hey, do you 196 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: want to get involved in violence? Let me know. I'm 197 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: your guy, Like this from Mickey in Denver. I don't 198 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: want it to be worried. I'm pressure you, like, oh yeah, 199 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: you should totally. You know, blow up the fucking governor's house. 200 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: It's it's it's if it's what you want to do, 201 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: then you know, I have to make sure that's what 202 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: you want to do. It sounds absurd, right, one of 203 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: these racial justice protesters is going to blow up the 204 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: governor's mansion. But to the FBI, this wasn't absurd. It 205 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: seemed possible. It seemed real. That's because inside the FBI, 206 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: agents all the way to the top saw the racial 207 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: justice protests as an other nine eleven waiting to happen. Yeah, 208 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: another nine eleven. In the summer of twenty twenty, as 209 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: racial justice demonstrations broke out around the country, top officials 210 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: at the FBI in Washington, DC saw the seeds of terrorism. 211 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: David Bowditch, the FBI's deputy director, the second in command, 212 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: sent an internal memo to his top aids that compared 213 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: these demonstrations to the nine eleven terrorist attacks. When nine 214 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: eleven occurred, our folks did not quibble, but whether there 215 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: was danger or ahead for them, Bautis wrote, they ran 216 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: head on into peril. In the memo, Bowditch described the 217 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: racial justice demonstrations throughout the country as a national crisis 218 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: whose violent protesters were highly organized. That the FBI would 219 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: see the world and these protests through a prism of 220 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: terrorism is perhaps understandable. In context. The nine eleven attacks 221 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: transformed the FBI, and counter terrorism became the agency's top priority. 222 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: There's a concept of cognitive bias known as the law 223 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: of the instrument or Maslow's hammer, after the famous American 224 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: psychologist Abraham Maslow. He wrote in nineteen sixty six, I 225 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: suppose it is tempting if the only tool you have 226 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were 227 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: a nail. So you have this agency full of hammers, 228 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: and you have the guy at the very top, President Trump, 229 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: almost every day in speeches and on Fox News, saying 230 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: that there are nails all over the country just waiting 231 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: to be hammered. The violence and vandalism is being led 232 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: by Antifa and other radical left wing groups. And it 233 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: was also frustrating for me to see, how ably, usually 234 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: that's not a term that you use when you're referencing 235 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: former President Trump. This is former FBI agent Michael German again. 236 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: But how ably he was able to make this boogeyman 237 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: out of Antifa, you know, this concept, and how clever 238 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: it was that he wasn't using the full term anti fascists. Right, 239 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: If you're saying that your enemy is anti fascism, that 240 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: says a lot about you, right. But by using this 241 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: handle Antifa when really what he was focused on was 242 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter rallies, right that it was like, okay, 243 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: I can't say black lives matter as a problem but 244 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: I think it was very clever the way they were 245 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: able to use that term to justify a much more 246 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: violent law enforcement response amid this Antifa scare. Even what 247 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: we knew publicly at the time about the federal government's 248 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: response to the Black Lives Matter movement was shocking. The 249 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: Justice Department charged hundreds of people with felonies and misdemeanors 250 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: for their roles in First Amendment protected demonstrations. CBS News 251 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: has confirmed Attorney General Bill Barr is encouraging US attorney's 252 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: nationwide to seek federal charges against violent protesters, even when 253 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: state charges could apply. The Department of Homeland Security deployed 254 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: agents dressed in military style uniforms and even abducted some 255 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: demonstrators off the streets. Since their arrival, Federal agents wearing 256 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: military style gear and sometimes driving unmarked bands of unleashed 257 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: tear gas into crowds, rounded up and detained protesters, and 258 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: even shot one man in the head with a non 259 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: lethal round, causing serious injury. There is no information tonight 260 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: on how National Guard plans were used to monitor Black 261 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: Lives Matter protests, and military spy planes were deployed above 262 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: cities nationwide to monitor protesters, including one over a suburb 263 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: just outside of Sacramento. But throughout this period it was 264 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: unclear how exactly the FBI, the nation's most powerful and 265 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: influential law enforcement agency, was responding to the racial justice demonstrations. 266 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: By the time the racial justice demonstrations broke out nationwide 267 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, the FBI, thanks to the War on Terror, 268 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: had recruited an army of informants and a warrantless mass 269 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: surveillance apparatus that could monitor phone calls and digital communications 270 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: and footprints. The FBI also created a new type of 271 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: investigation called an assessment, that did not require what's known 272 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: as a criminal predicate, which basically just means a reasonable 273 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: suspicion that a crime is occurring. With an assessment, an 274 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: FBI agent can open an investigation on just about anyone 275 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 1: for just about any reason. As long as the agent 276 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: asserts their own impression that what they're doing is designed 277 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: to protect the national security or solve crime, they're good 278 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: to go again. Michael German, the former FBI agent, And 279 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: with these investigations, a lot of very intrusive tools are authorized, 280 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: including physical surveillance and use of grand jury subpoenas to 281 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: get subscribe or information, but most alarm to me recruiting 282 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: and tasking informants. And so here's the FBI in the 283 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: summer of twenty twenty, seeing racial justice demonstrations nationwide inside 284 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: FBI headquarters in Washington. Higher ups believe some of these 285 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: demonstrators could be linked to a domestic extremist ideology they've 286 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: termed black identity extremism, or as federal agents now prefer 287 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: to say, publicly racially motivated violent extremism. All these things 288 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: seem to create a situation where the FBI could see 289 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: the protests not as First Amendment protected activity, but as 290 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: threats to national security. And that's when I heard about 291 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: Mickey Windecker, his silver hearse, his mountain of guns, and 292 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: its hidden camera more after the break. So the FBI 293 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: reports concerning Mickey Windecker's work as an informant raise a 294 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: lot of questions and concerns. It's clear from these reports 295 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: that FBI agents did not have a predicate or a 296 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: reasonable suspicion that any crime was occurring, nothing to justify 297 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: opening an investigation of any particular person in the Denver area. Instead, 298 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: all the FBI had from Mickey's information was that there 299 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: were protests in Denver and some of these had become 300 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: violent and destructive. This wasn't exactly proprietary information, of course. 301 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: The local news in Denver was reporting on this nearly 302 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: every day during the summer of twenty twenty. But each 303 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: of the last four days has turned into this. Tear gas, 304 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: pepper rounce, rocks and bottles in the air, smashed glass fires. 305 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: But that information that there were protests and some were 306 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: violent seemed to be enough for the FBI to justify 307 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: signing up Mickey as an informant and secretly placing him 308 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: inside Denver's racial justice movement. The FBI didn't have any 309 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 1: evidence to suggest someone specific was committing violence or even 310 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: was about to. Really, the only thing they had was ideology. 311 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: The FBI was concerned that racial justice protesters were using 312 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: heated rhetoric. Some of this talk suggesting violence, sure, but 313 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: nonetheless protected by the First Amendment. Among the speakers at 314 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: the Denver protests was Zebedias Hall or zeb, who Mickey 315 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: told agents had made statements such as we need to 316 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: burn this motherfucker down and we need to get explosives. 317 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: According to the FBI's internal reports. But this wasn't secret 318 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: squirrel information either. Zeb was known to say such things 319 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: in front of large crowds, and many of his acid 320 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: tongue speeches were publicly live streamed for anyone to watch, 321 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: like this one, which you can go watch on YouTube 322 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: right now if you want. I don't give a fuck 323 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: about the cops, zep says, standing on the steps of 324 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: the Colorado State Capital, because fuck them. That's why. By 325 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: signing up Mickey as an informant and opening up an 326 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: investigation of Denver's racial justice protests without a clear purpose, 327 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: the FBI creates a perverse incentive structure for Mickey. Here's 328 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Michael German, the former FBI agent. My way of looking 329 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: at it is I would rather have an FBI undercover 330 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: agent in there who at least knows what the law is, 331 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: and not that agents don't violate the law, but rather 332 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: than an informant whose reliability is much lower, whose incentives 333 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: are very different. Right, if Mickey wants to keep getting 334 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: paid by the FBI, he needs to build a criminal case, 335 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: no matter what it takes. They're trying to get paid, 336 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: and they get paid you by proving a case. And 337 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: if they don't prove if they come in and say, hey, 338 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: I was part of this protest movement and I didn't 339 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: see any crime, they don't stay on the payroll, all right, 340 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: So their incentive is to manufacture crime. This is a 341 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: systemic problem for the FBI. Informants who are working for 342 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: money or for leniency on criminal charges often create or 343 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: encourage criminal conduct. They have every incentive to do so. 344 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: I've asked a lot of FBI agents about this issue 345 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: in the past, and most have offered to me the 346 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: same defense. There's no other way to catch the bad guys. 347 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: The FBI needs these informants. In fact, there's an FBI 348 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: expression about informants. If you want to catch the devil, 349 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: you have to go to hell. In other words, informants 350 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: can't be choir boys. If you're going to infiltrate a 351 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: group of criminals, you need your own criminal, someone who 352 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: can play the part and fit seamlessly into the organization. 353 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: That's the business that the FBI is in, employing bad 354 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: guys to catch other bad guys. As a result, many, 355 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: if not most, of the FBI's fifteen thousand informants are 356 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: people with criminal records, sketchy pass and plenty of reasons 357 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: not to be viewed is credible. The FBI knows this, 358 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: of course, and as a result, informants are often subjected 359 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: to lie detector tests to make sure they are not 360 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: deceiving federal agents. The FBI also has informants secretly record 361 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: conversations so that the government's criminal prosecution won't rest entirely 362 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: on the unreliable words of an unscrupulous informant. But while 363 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: informants are assets for the FBI, they're also ongoing liabilities. Informants, 364 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 1: incentivized by thousands of dollars in cash payments, have been 365 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: known to spend months with targets before any recordings begin, 366 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: essentially grooming them and resulting in questions of entrapment much 367 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: later at trial. In addition, the FBI has to allow 368 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: these informants to commit crimes while in the FBI payroll. Remember, 369 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: a criminal's got to do criminal things right. During a 370 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: single four year period from twenty eleven to twenty fourteen, 371 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: the FBI permitted informants to violate the law more than 372 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: twenty thousand times. And that's just the number of times 373 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: the FBI has explicitly permitted informants to commit crimes presumably 374 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: in order to maintain their covers or further an investigation. 375 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: What's not calculated and reported by the FBI is a 376 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: number of times they turn a blind eye to informants 377 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: who break the law without permission. At this point, you 378 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: might be asking, is there a limit? Are some informants 379 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: crimes so awful they shouldn't be enlisted as FBI informants? 380 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: Or maybe you're asking, do some informants have such a 381 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: long history of deception that they just can't be trusted 382 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: not to lie to FBI agents. Judging by Mickey Windecker's 383 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: FBI file, the answer is no, there are no limits. 384 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: When they signed up Mickey as an informant, FBI agents 385 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: in Denver knew he had a rap sheet arrest in Colorado, Nevada, Texas, 386 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: and Florida. He'd been arrested for assault, sexual assault, failing 387 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: to register as a sex offender, menacing, an unlawful possession 388 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: of a weapon, among other charges. The FBI knew about 389 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: these charges from doing a background check, a background check 390 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: that FBI agents included in their files related to Mickey's 391 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: work as an informant. I don't know if the FBI 392 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: pulled and reviewed the actual police and court files to 393 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: get the gory details about Mickey's arrest. But I did, 394 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: and I also found some recordings of Mickey talking about 395 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: some of these incidents. In the sexual assault case, Mickey 396 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: had a sexual relationship with a minor. Mickey actually talks 397 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: about this in one of the videos I found. And 398 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: while I was nineteen years old, I decided that there 399 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: was a place called Roll of Rama. I think that's 400 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: the name of the place. I met this girl. She 401 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: kind of seem mature at the time, So I went 402 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: to the Roll of rink and I met her and 403 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: she was talking. She's like, hey, here's my numbers, like 404 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: you should co hang out and all that. I was like, 405 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: all right, cool. Mickey said he didn't know the girl 406 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: was under age when they had sex, and for the record, well, 407 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: Mickey claimed he was nineteen years old when this incident occurred. 408 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: Court record show he was twenty and my dad had 409 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: a friend who was an investigator and pulled up her 410 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: name and it turned out that she was fourteen actually 411 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: get a right term fifteen. And when my dad let 412 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: me know, can not come front of me, but was like, hey, 413 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: this is really what's going on. I was like, oh, okay, 414 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: we're done. So I called her up on my house phone. 415 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: I was like, hey, I can't up with you no more. 416 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: I don't want to be around you because you're not 417 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: a aage so I cut her off. Mickey was able 418 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: to plead the case down to third degree sexual assault, 419 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor. Several people have filed restraining orders against Mickey, 420 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: including a man I found through my reporting. He contacted 421 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: me and said that he was hired by Vicky to 422 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: break into my home. This guy asked me not to 423 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: use his name at a fear of retribution from Mickey. 424 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: He described how he was going through a child custody 425 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: battle with a woman named VICKI and to do some 426 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: some level of surveillance and tap my phones and put 427 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: cameras in my house. Just a tremendous amount of craziness. 428 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: So we did a quick Google search and obviously find 429 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: out that you know, this person had this background, and 430 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: I immediately contacted the police and the judge. But what's 431 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: also troubling in Mickey's court files is this history of 432 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: allegedly breaking the law while also pretending to be a 433 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: police officer. In one example, he allegedly showed someone a 434 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: fake police badge while asking questions. In another Mickey stuck 435 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: a gun in someone's face and claimed to be a 436 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: police officer looking for a suspect. That incident resulted in 437 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: a felony conviction, and Mickey served two years in a 438 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: Colorado prison as a result in two thousand and two 439 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: and two thousand and three. And I think that's where 440 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: Mickey learned the value of being a snitch. While in prison, 441 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: he was approached about killing someone, but instead of committing 442 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: the murder for hire, Mickey went to the cops became 443 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: a prison informant, helping to win convictions against the people 444 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: who tried to hire him. That's the earliest example I 445 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: could find in records of Mickey working as an informant. 446 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: Generally speaking, criminals work as informants primarily for two reasons, 447 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: either to make money or to receive leniency falling an arrest. Undoubtedly, 448 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: Mickey was motivated at various times by both those reasons, 449 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: but for him, there appears to be an even deeper 450 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: psychological impulse. Mickey saw himself as an anti hero, someone 451 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: who operates in the gray areas of the law, delivering 452 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: his own brand of justice. Mickey wore a chain around 453 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: his neck, and hanging from that chain was a medallion 454 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: of the logo for the Punisher, a vigilante from the 455 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: Marvel Comics universe who fights crime with an obscene level 456 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: of violence. He literally thought he was the Punisher. Anything 457 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: you see the punish row who was on it, and 458 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: he would always wear the punish or necklace. Even when 459 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: he took a shower or a bath. Never came off, 460 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: just like a big kid in the worst way, in 461 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: the worst way. It's awful. That's in the next episode. 462 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: This is Trojan Hearse, Season one of Alphabet Boys. Alphabet 463 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Boys is a production of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. 464 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: The show is reported, written and hosted by me, Trevor Aaronson. 465 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: For more information about the series or to drop us 466 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: a tip, head to our website Alphabet Boys dot xyc. 467 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. 468 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: We believe this story is important and could result in 469 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: changes to FBI oversight and public policy. But to have 470 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: an impact, people need to hear the story, so we 471 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: need your help. First, tell your friends about the show. 472 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: Personal recommendations are the best recommendations. Second, spread the word 473 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: on social media. At alphabet boys dot xyz, you'll find 474 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: FBI undercover recordings and secret documents. You can share stuff 475 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: the government never wanted public. Third help us ride the 476 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: algorithms by leaving a rating or review on your favorite 477 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: podcast app that helps other people find us, and thanks 478 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: for listening.