WEBVTT - S14, Ep9 | How Climate Obstruction Works at the Local Level 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.400 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt again. 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.879 This season we are making our way through a huge 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.480 collection of all the peer reviewed research we have so 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.960 far on climate obstruction and how it works globally. It's 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.920 called Climate Obstruction, a Global Survey. It comes to you 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.840 from the Climate Social Science Network, and in each episode 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.759 of this season we're talking to the lead authors of 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.440 a different chapter focus on a different area of this research, 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.840 who are walking us through what we know so far 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.920 about how this stuff works. As is one of the 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.800 editors of this volume, Tim Ands Roberts said in our 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.559 first episode of this season, for a really long time, 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.319 people who wanted climate policy had no idea what they 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.920 were up against in terms of the organized and very 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.880 well funded efforts to block climate policy. Sometimes in action 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.880 on climate or the sort of stalled spot that we're 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.800 at so far gets chalked up to, you know, bad 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.720 policy making or bad messaging from the climate movement. And 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.039 while any or all of those things could very well 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.400 be true, you can't discount the impact that the large, 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:18.880 extremely well funded, very consistent, global, decades long effort to 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.400 obstruct climate policy has had on our ability to make 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.480 progress on this issue. Last week we talked about what 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.520 climate obstruction looks like in the global south. Today we 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.759 look at local obstruction. So in a lot of cases, 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:39.920 local governments can be really helpful in climate policy even 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:45.920 when the national or federal or international negotiations are going badly. 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:51.560 Sometimes a mayor or a governor can get climate policy 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.440 going at the local level. But the opposite is also true. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.760 It's a real double edged sword. Local governments can also 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:04.880 block the implementation of national or international efforts. Joining me 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.440 today to talk about how that works in both directions 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:13.280 are Rebecca Bromley Trujillo from Christopher Newport University and Joshua 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:18.760 Bessechis from Tulane University. That conversation is coming up after 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:36.720 this quick break. Okay, so I know this sounds really basic, 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:38.480 but I feel like people do actually have a lot 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:43.320 of questions about what can non federal government entities sub 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.280 national government entities do about climate. And I know obviously 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.440 this changes from country to country and even region to region, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.640 but if you could offer sort of an overview of 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.240 the sorts of things that these types of government bodies 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:57.880 can do about climate. 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.120 So our chapter focuses on certain regions such as the US, Canada, 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:06.200 and Latin America and Europe. Certainly there's variation across those 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.760 and across the globe, but generally speaking, sub national governments 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.680 have a big role in things like transportation, the energy sector, 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.560 land use, and so this is sort of a double 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.680 edged sword. It means that they can be a source 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.520 for policy that is mitigating the climate, or they. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:25.880 Can be a source for obstruction. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.399 And so we see these sub national units again, such 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:35.040 as things like states, provinces, cities, counties. They do things 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:40.120 like climate action plans or renewal energy requirements, or changes 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.280 their transportation systems that are more efficient, and so there's 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.600 a lot of opportunity. But certainly all of the sources 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.280 of obstruction that happen at national levels come to play 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.440 at the state and local and provincial levels as well. 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.320 Yeah, and I would just add, of course that sub 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:02.280 national power relative to the nownational government varies considerably. So 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.560 in the United States, subnational states are actually much more 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.560 powerful because of the Tenth Amendment and other things like that. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.960 There's much more that they're able to do than subnational 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:15.520 governments in other parts of the world. One thing that 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.279 varies by country is how much power institutionally and legally 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.040 the subnational government has relative to the national government. And 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.560 then just like Becky said, it's a double edged sword, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.839 tons of opportunities. In the US, almost all of the 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.359 climate policy we've seen has been at the state level. 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.400 But also there are some added challenges like less levels 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.760 of media coverage. Right, so those who would obstruct can 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.599 often get away with more at the state level just 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.800 because there might be weaker mechanisms of accountability. 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.320 That's a good segue into the next thing I wanted 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.599 to ask you about, which is the public opinion piece, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.440 and especially how this plays out in the US and Canada, 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:57.760 just how public opinion plays into climate obstruction at this level. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.440 So both the US and Canada, you show variation in 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.640 public opinion on climate change from a range of things 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.440 as to whether it's human cause, or whether the scientific 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.760 consensus is there, and support for public policy to address 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.520 climate change. What I'd say is in the US there 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:20.039 is a more pronounced polarization between liberals and conservatives, Republicans 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:24.480 and Democrats, and so you really see this especially in 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:29.480 the priority placed on climate policy issues, and also in 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.120 terms of like the broad idea that it's human caused 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.560 and so these variations and public opinion on this issue 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.480 can make it easier or harder for some national governments 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.040 to pass policy, both in the US and Canada. So 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.120 if you have a public that doesn't really see climate 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.839 change as an important issue and doesn't really show strong 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.760 support for public policy, then it's easier for those governments 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.080 to then say, well, we shouldn't do anything. And I'd 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.720 also say we do actually find a lot of support 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:07.840 for renewable energy investment and other policies among both Republicans 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.039 and Democrats, or conservatives and liberals. But there is a 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.960 pretty clear disconnect between some of those public positions versus 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.360 positions of political elites. And I'm sure we'll talk more 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.360 about how political elites plai into this process, but that 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.760 connection is important to think about in both the US 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:30.240 and Canada. And again, in the US, public opinion overall 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.080 is less supportive than it is in Canada for climate 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.960 mitigation policy, but we do see some of the same 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.880 challenges play out in both countries. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:42.120 Yeah. Interesting, Okay, I want to ask you about political 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.080 party affiliation and how that works, especially this difference you 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.200 point out between the US and Canada, where it's actually 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.039 much more like if you're a Republican, you're doing this 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.680 in the US, and it might be in Canada. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.159 Yeah, So I mean at the subnational level in the US, 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:03.600 arguably the greatest obstruction is happening within these state legislatures 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.039 and by governors and other actors that you know, for 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.400 the Republican Party, generally they are opposed to any sort 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.200 of climate mitigation policy. 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.840 And so if there's a. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:19.360 Single Republican control, whether it's a lower house or upper 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.320 house of the state legislature or the governorship, it acts 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.800 as a veto point for any sort of renewable energy 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.480 or climate policy at that state level. And that also 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.560 occurs at the local level in the US and in Canada. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.880 Certainly we see as there are shifts in party leadership 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.679 from like a liberal to a conservative party leadership in Canada, 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.840 we do see some changes in what they're doing. It's 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.080 just it's more based on sort of the extraction interests 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.600 and economic interests there than party interests, although there's some 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.040 certainly some role there. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.400 State legislators are closer to the publics that they serve, 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.200 they have fewer and then the other thing is they 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.200 just have less access to information, fewer inputs into the 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:10.440 policy making process more likely rely on autol legislation from 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.840 a group like the American Legislator Change Council or ALEC, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.080 which is funded largely by fossil fuel companies. Fortunately, one 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.000 of the problems that we face is one of accountability 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.440 to voters. At both the state and the federal level. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.360 There's so many, so much politicians and get away that, 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.360 you know, when the public isn't paying attention, and that's 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:32.880 even more so at the state level. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.200 Well to your point earlier, there's just there's a lack 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.280 of media coverage and just a lack of outlets that 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.240 are even right there too. So yeah, anyway, okay, so 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.440 how do extractive industries come to play the subnational level? 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.680 Yeah, so I can start with that one. So, I 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.040 mean basically there's sort of the more overt ways and 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.600 then the more subtle ways. So the more overt ways 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.040 is that you know, these groups, the fossil fuel interests 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.800 have tremendously skilled lobbyists. They have tremendous resources to actually 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.280 help with drafting legislation and to actually intervene directly in 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.320 the legislative and regulatory process. And the regulatory process is 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.920 the process that does often gets less attention, right, So 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.520 like public utility commissions, or you know, in Texas, there's 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.280 this railroad Commission that actually, even though it's called the 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.600 Railroad Commission, it regulates the oil and gas industries. And 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.480 so there's all kinds of ways in which they can 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.280 just use their resources to directly influence the legislative process. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.240 But then there's also all of these sort of ways 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.120 that they try to influence the discourse, right, like the 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.160 public discourse as well as the education system. So there's 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.440 this great article that we cite in our chapter looking 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:51.439 at Saskatchewan in Canada and how oil industry funded groups 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.720 have produced like educational resources that are used in classrooms 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.439 to like educate children about the realities with a lens 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.400 towards what's good for their industry. And then we can 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.280 talk about you know, think tanks and front groups as well. 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.560 But one of the big ways that they influence the 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:15.120 discourses by funding these nonprofit organizations that you know are 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:19.280 not called Exxon Mobile or Chevron or all these other companies. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.319 They're called things like the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.480 sounds so innocuous, right and so neutral. So those are 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.040 just some of the ways that they the more insidious 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.200 and ways that they influence policy, as well as the 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:37.160 more obvious ones like lobbyists and contributions and things like that. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.400 Yeah, that reminds me. Just talking about the Texas Public 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.760 Policy Foundation reminds me of another way they get involved, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.640 which is weird court cases. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.120 Yes, and this is this is a side note, but 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.960 you know, the Texas Public Policy Foundation was also heavily 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.360 involved with Project twenty twenty five as well. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.559 Yeah, well, I'll just devtail onto all of what you're saying. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.760 So certainly, fossil fuel interests get involved through think tanks, 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.160 and it's really kind of a very clever way of 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:12.120 producing misinformation, and so that links directly to that public 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.160 opinion piece. So basically you've got fossil fuel interests funding 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.400 think tanks and funding these groups like Josh mentioned, and 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.000 some of these groups even sound like environmental organizations like 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.880 Protect our Coasts or Save the Whales, and so they 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.120 will create these entities, these little groups, they will push 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.360 money through them that spreads misinformation, and so we see this, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:38.920 you know, especially on the East Coast in the US, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.680 there's a lot of misinformation spread about offshore wind and 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.800 harm to whales. There's no evidence that that's an issue, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.800 but EXI Mobile and other fossil fuel interests are funding 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.280 various entities that spread this idea. The same is true 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:59.040 of this idea that wind farms are extremely bad for birds, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.240 for instance. So there's a lot of misinformation around those things, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.200 and if you follow the money back, it goes all 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.560 the way back to those fossil fuel interests. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.760 You talked about political elites earlier and how they play 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.560 into the public opinion piece too. Could I have you 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.640 unpack that a little bit and maybe give some specific 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.400 examples in the US and Canada. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.440 Yeah, absolutely, So, I mean politically elites are also part 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.480 of this misinformation ecosystem, if you will. And so I 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.000 just mentioned think tanks possil fuel interests. Certainly political elites 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.880 are joining in that effort and trying to influence public opinion, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.199 downplaying issues and. 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.360 Making it sound like renewable as a problem. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.440 In the chapter, we talk specifically in the US about 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.960 Texas and how politically leads the governor members of the 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:53.320 state legislature in Texas use a crisis a statewide power 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.720 failure back in twenty twenty one to suggest it was 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.200 actually renewables that cause this, But when we actually look 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.480 at the evidence, there were widespread failures related to natural gas, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.360 but they kind of grab this issue and spread that 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.520 misinformation alongside all of these other powerful interests. And so 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.400 that's kind of a US example, Josh, I don't know 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.840 if you have a Canadian example you want to share. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.040 Yeah, well, the Texas example that Becky mentioned, Like, in 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.800 addition to gas plants failing and being literally frozen during 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.960 that winter storm in twenty twenty one, there's also more 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.760 technical limitations on the Texas grid. For example, the Texas 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.319 grid is not adequately connected to the Eastern and Western grids, 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:41.240 so basically their supply is very scarce. And that's true. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.920 And of course electrons are electrons, regardless of whether they're 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.920 generated from wind turbines or gas plants or coal plants, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.400 and so those kinds of grid infrastructure issues are also 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.240 at play. And yet the instinct of political elites in 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.000 Texas is to immediately blame green energy and wind and 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.400 solar and say that the wind doesn't always and the 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.800 sun doesn't always shine and all. So in Canada we 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.360 see a lot of similar dynamics. One important difference though, 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.960 is that when it comes to electricity, Kiedro electricity and 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:15.120 nuclear play a much greater role in the country's electricity system. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:20.000 And so that being said, there are particular provinces like 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.320 Saskatchewan and Alberta, for example, where the oil and gas 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.960 industry is extremely effective at shaping elite behavior as well 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.640 as public opinion. But I guess that's one difference that 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.960 I see between the US and Canada, and that in 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.600 the US there are so many states that have extractive industries. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.000 They're the majority of the fifty states, whereas in Canada 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.640 it's actually the minority of the provinces. But then within 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.320 those provinces we see similar things in terms of fossil 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.320 fuel industries and elites to what we see in the. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:58.920 US, which is why Alberta wants to secede. Right. Weirdly, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.040 I have neighbors in Costa Rica who are from Canada, 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.240 from Alberta and worked in the tarcans industry, and like 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:11.720 have a giant we Love Texas poster in their house. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.600 And like that sounds very unbranded. Yeah, it's a vibe. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:21.680 Yeah, okay, So in yeah, I wonder if you if 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.320 you feel comfortable talking about how this shows up in 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:25.400 Latin America too. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.640 Before we move on to Latin America, I have to 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.000 talk about utilities. So utilities are really important because they 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:37.160 are often monopolies within their service territories. So corporations provide 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.400 a government function, which is you know, gas and electricity, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.040 and so in some states and areas of the country, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.120 the gas utilities and the electric utilities are separate companies, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.080 but in other places they're the same, like for example, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.320 National Grid. There are many utilities that provide both gas 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.880 and electric service, and they have historically been considered part 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.840 of the fossil fuel industry, but really they're actually quite 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.160 distinct and there are really their interests have to do 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.880 with maintaining monopoly control, and so rooftop solar or virtual 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.400 power plants or consumers that want to produce their own 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.880 clean energy right involves some independence from the grid. And 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:23.680 so you know, in general, more competitive resources are clean resources, 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.080 whether it's at the individual household level or utility scale. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.240 And so we end up seeing utilities very much being obstructionists. 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.440 But instead of like where the oil and gas industry, 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.560 what they're really obstructing to is direct competition in the 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.600 utility industry. They're obstructing to the idea that anyone other 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.920 than them might control the grid, and so it's a 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.200 really interesting dynamic. And of course utilities, even though their 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:54.680 policy preferences are more nuanced, they're extremely powerful in state legislatures, 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.160 at public utility commissions, et cetera. And so there's sort 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.880 of this pivotal player where one once you can convince 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.480 them to go green, they can be really helpful, but 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.440 until then they can be very challenging. The other kind 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.960 of policies that they tend to oppose our policies known 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.160 as decoupling, where the revenue that they get is decoupled 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.760 from the energy that they sell, which of course is 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.560 a good type of policy for promoting energy efficiency. But 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.720 because their business model is so much based on building 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.600 new infrastructure and having demand be higher, it ends up 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.240 that they oppose those kinds of policies. 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.720 Isn't that kind of what happened with rooftop solar in California? 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.880 It was mostly utilities that were pushing that, right, Yeah, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:39.640 so yeah. 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.359 The more people that put solar panels on the roof, 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.320 the more that the other customers that don't have solar 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.959 end up paying. But of course that's a result of 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.840 the rate design, the way that the public utility commissions 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.760 allocate costs, and that those policies have been largely shaped 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.639 over the years by the utilities. So it's like the 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.439 utilities influence has created this problem and rate design that 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.679 then conveniently gets blamed on rooftop solar as opposed to 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.639 all the efforts over decades to have you know, cost 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.280 of service regulation where the utilities get rewarded for building 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.600 more of their own infrastructure as opposed to compensating individuals 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.639 who choose to put solar on their roofs. Yeah. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.720 Right, with both utilities and oil and gas in terms 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.200 of the organizations that they use at the subnational level 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:34.119 to kind of shape policy. Do you see their investments 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.600 in like community organizations and arts centers and all of 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.600 that stuff as part of that as well, like sponsoring 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.920 the Little League team and all that. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.040 And sometimes it's Little League and sometimes it's like actual 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.000 sports stadiums and wings of museums like Oklahoma Gas and 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.280 Electric sponsors a big, a big wing of the Cowboy 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.600 Museum in Oklahoma City, which is very cool but also 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.240 completely unrelated to their business. They just are really good 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:58.840 at branding. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:04.160 Yes, Yeah, Virginia Dominion energy sponsors like various Christmas light 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.760 displays at gardens, and yeah, I mean they're very good 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.680 at branding. And it's adding to what Josh has said 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.320 about utilities. I know much less than he does, but 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.320 in Virginia, you know, Dominion is this really powerful investor 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.840 in utility. But they kind of swing a little back 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.720 and forth. You know, when there were Democrats in control, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.280 they started to shift a little more towards more pro 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.040 renewable energy types of plans because they thought, well, this 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:31.560 is going. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.720 To be the future, and so we need to shape 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:34.760 what it's going to look like. 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.640 And so they got actively involved in the legislative process 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:38.800 and shaping. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.000 Okay, well we're going to do this, so we want 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.160 to make it as favorable to us as possible. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:48.080 But once Republicans took back control of state government, Dominion 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:52.240 shifted the other way along with Republicans, and so they're 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.560 playing both sides sometimes to really just to ensure that 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.240 their business model performs the best. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.000 Yeah, and I mean that it's kind of like what 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.080 I was saying about like blaming you know, rooftop solar 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.639 in California. So because they literally run the grid and 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.840 they know more about the grid than any state policy makers. 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.159 They almost have sort of like the privileges of government themselves, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.240 but the incentives of private companies. And that makes them 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.879 different than other fossil fuel actors. And it's kind of 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.120 like what Becky was saying is, you know, they try 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.679 to get ahead of things. They don't testify very often 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.120 at the public hearings because they've usually already done their 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.560 influential work at the Public Service Commission or at the 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.120 state legislature. So yeah, they're really interesting actors. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.320 Yeah, I just feel like they stay behind the scenes 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.920 a lot. People just don't think of them that often. 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.560 Right, They'll think of them when they see their name 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.399 on a subconscious level, like when they participate in a 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.400 sporting event or an arts museum, but then they don't 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.960 connect that all the way back to like their policy 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.080 influence over the clean energy transition. They're just like, oh, 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:55.920 how nice of them to sponsor this wing of the 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:56.600 art museum. 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.439 Okay, So Latin America. I'm curious what you guys saw 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.280 as not experts actually on Latin America, Like what jumped 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.040 out to you as key differences between that region and 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.000 what you've studied in North America. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.000 I mean, I would say the first is it's so 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:17.000 much more complex because certainly there's huge variation across Latin 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:21.040 American countries in terms of their governing systems. So some 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.760 are federal systems, some are unitary, but even some of 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.359 their federal systems don't look anything like the US federal 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.520 systems in terms of the autonomy granted the state and 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.720 local or subnational governments. And so that stood out to 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.600 me also just kind of more higher levels of political corruption, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:48.119 less accountability, remnants of colonialism that really empowered certain interests, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:54.439 especially extractive industries, and so there's, yes, it's just a 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:59.080 much more complex situation going on there, and so how 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.480 things go on in each individual country than Latin America 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:04.680 can really vary. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.480 Yeah, just to add to that, like it's pretty clear 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.680 from reading the work that our colleague Marcella put into 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.480 the chapter that one thing that's different is that a 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.240 lot of the energy, like the oil and gas companies, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:21.359 are state owned companies, so they are actually part of 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.639 the national government, which makes the obstruction, which sort of 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.600 changes the whole lens through which you view obstruction, because 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.160 it's like the state is obstructing rather than different actors 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.720 trying to influence the state's government, and then they have 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.720 really weak institutions. Even though our institutions right now in 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.440 the United States are being tested. This is all new 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.320 for US, But in Latin America for decades they've been 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.320 dealing with the sort of corruption and weak institutions, So 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:46.400 that's another difference. 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.359 Yeah, it's interesting. Actually, I was talking to someone in 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.200 Mexico who's like a climate campaigner, and he was saying 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.639 that the trouble in Mexico is not just all of 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.840 the things that you deal with in any situation where 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.680 people are like, but I use gas in my car, 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.920 so like what about that and whatever, but also that 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:08.040 in Mexico, saying something bad about Pemex is like saying 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:09.960 something bad about Mexican identity. 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.760 Yes, right, And epay FA, I think is the state 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.639 owned corporation Argentina, and I'm sure Brazil has something. 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.600 Marcella had described both in the chapter and discussions many 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.480 examples of these sort of corruption intertwining between government leaders 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.960 and these various extractive industries, and there's just so much 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:35.439 economic interests a way that you know, the money is 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.120 doled out in terms of royalties and all kinds of things. 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:41.240 And we talked about how in the US and Canada, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.680 like there is clearly a partisan alignment with fossil fuel 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.919 interests like the Republican Party or the Conservative Party, but 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.119