1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt again. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: This season we are making our way through a huge 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: collection of all the peer reviewed research we have so 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: far on climate obstruction and how it works globally. It's 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: called Climate Obstruction, a Global Survey. It comes to you 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: from the Climate Social Science Network, and in each episode 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: of this season we're talking to the lead authors of 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: a different chapter focus on a different area of this research, 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: who are walking us through what we know so far 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: about how this stuff works. As is one of the 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: editors of this volume, Tim Ands Roberts said in our 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: first episode of this season, for a really long time, 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: people who wanted climate policy had no idea what they 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: were up against in terms of the organized and very 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: well funded efforts to block climate policy. Sometimes in action 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: on climate or the sort of stalled spot that we're 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: at so far gets chalked up to, you know, bad 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: policy making or bad messaging from the climate movement. And 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: while any or all of those things could very well 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: be true, you can't discount the impact that the large, 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: extremely well funded, very consistent, global, decades long effort to 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: obstruct climate policy has had on our ability to make 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: progress on this issue. Last week we talked about what 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: climate obstruction looks like in the global south. Today we 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: look at local obstruction. So in a lot of cases, 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: local governments can be really helpful in climate policy even 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: when the national or federal or international negotiations are going badly. 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes a mayor or a governor can get climate policy 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: going at the local level. But the opposite is also true. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: It's a real double edged sword. Local governments can also 31 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: block the implementation of national or international efforts. Joining me 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: today to talk about how that works in both directions 33 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: are Rebecca Bromley Trujillo from Christopher Newport University and Joshua 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Bessechis from Tulane University. That conversation is coming up after 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: this quick break. Okay, so I know this sounds really basic, 36 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: but I feel like people do actually have a lot 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: of questions about what can non federal government entities sub 38 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: national government entities do about climate. And I know obviously 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: this changes from country to country and even region to region, 40 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: but if you could offer sort of an overview of 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: the sorts of things that these types of government bodies 42 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: can do about climate. 43 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: So our chapter focuses on certain regions such as the US, Canada, 44 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: and Latin America and Europe. Certainly there's variation across those 45 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: and across the globe, but generally speaking, sub national governments 46 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: have a big role in things like transportation, the energy sector, 47 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: land use, and so this is sort of a double 48 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: edged sword. It means that they can be a source 49 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: for policy that is mitigating the climate, or they. 50 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: Can be a source for obstruction. 51 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 2: And so we see these sub national units again, such 52 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: as things like states, provinces, cities, counties. They do things 53 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: like climate action plans or renewal energy requirements, or changes 54 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: their transportation systems that are more efficient, and so there's 55 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: a lot of opportunity. But certainly all of the sources 56 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: of obstruction that happen at national levels come to play 57 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: at the state and local and provincial levels as well. 58 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I would just add, of course that sub 59 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 4: national power relative to the nownational government varies considerably. So 60 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 4: in the United States, subnational states are actually much more 61 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 4: powerful because of the Tenth Amendment and other things like that. 62 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 4: There's much more that they're able to do than subnational 63 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 4: governments in other parts of the world. One thing that 64 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 4: varies by country is how much power institutionally and legally 65 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 4: the subnational government has relative to the national government. And 66 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 4: then just like Becky said, it's a double edged sword, 67 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 4: tons of opportunities. In the US, almost all of the 68 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 4: climate policy we've seen has been at the state level. 69 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 4: But also there are some added challenges like less levels 70 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 4: of media coverage. Right, so those who would obstruct can 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 4: often get away with more at the state level just 72 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: because there might be weaker mechanisms of accountability. 73 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: That's a good segue into the next thing I wanted 74 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: to ask you about, which is the public opinion piece, 75 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: and especially how this plays out in the US and Canada, 76 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: just how public opinion plays into climate obstruction at this level. 77 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: So both the US and Canada, you show variation in 78 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: public opinion on climate change from a range of things 79 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: as to whether it's human cause, or whether the scientific 80 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: consensus is there, and support for public policy to address 81 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: climate change. What I'd say is in the US there 82 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: is a more pronounced polarization between liberals and conservatives, Republicans 83 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: and Democrats, and so you really see this especially in 84 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: the priority placed on climate policy issues, and also in 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: terms of like the broad idea that it's human caused 86 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: and so these variations and public opinion on this issue 87 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: can make it easier or harder for some national governments 88 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: to pass policy, both in the US and Canada. So 89 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: if you have a public that doesn't really see climate 90 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: change as an important issue and doesn't really show strong 91 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: support for public policy, then it's easier for those governments 92 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: to then say, well, we shouldn't do anything. And I'd 93 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: also say we do actually find a lot of support 94 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: for renewable energy investment and other policies among both Republicans 95 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: and Democrats, or conservatives and liberals. But there is a 96 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: pretty clear disconnect between some of those public positions versus 97 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: positions of political elites. And I'm sure we'll talk more 98 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: about how political elites plai into this process, but that 99 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: connection is important to think about in both the US 100 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: and Canada. And again, in the US, public opinion overall 101 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: is less supportive than it is in Canada for climate 102 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: mitigation policy, but we do see some of the same 103 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: challenges play out in both countries. 104 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, Okay, I want to ask you about political 105 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: party affiliation and how that works, especially this difference you 106 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: point out between the US and Canada, where it's actually 107 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: much more like if you're a Republican, you're doing this 108 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: in the US, and it might be in Canada. 109 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean at the subnational level in the US, 110 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: arguably the greatest obstruction is happening within these state legislatures 111 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: and by governors and other actors that you know, for 112 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: the Republican Party, generally they are opposed to any sort 113 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: of climate mitigation policy. 114 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: And so if there's a. 115 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: Single Republican control, whether it's a lower house or upper 116 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: house of the state legislature or the governorship, it acts 117 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: as a veto point for any sort of renewable energy 118 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: or climate policy at that state level. And that also 119 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: occurs at the local level in the US and in Canada. 120 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: Certainly we see as there are shifts in party leadership 121 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 2: from like a liberal to a conservative party leadership in Canada, 122 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: we do see some changes in what they're doing. It's 123 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: just it's more based on sort of the extraction interests 124 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: and economic interests there than party interests, although there's some 125 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: certainly some role there. 126 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 4: State legislators are closer to the publics that they serve, 127 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: they have fewer and then the other thing is they 128 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 4: just have less access to information, fewer inputs into the 129 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 4: policy making process more likely rely on autol legislation from 130 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 4: a group like the American Legislator Change Council or ALEC, 131 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: which is funded largely by fossil fuel companies. Fortunately, one 132 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 4: of the problems that we face is one of accountability 133 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 4: to voters. At both the state and the federal level. 134 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 4: There's so many, so much politicians and get away that, 135 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 4: you know, when the public isn't paying attention, and that's 136 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 4: even more so at the state level. 137 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: Well to your point earlier, there's just there's a lack 138 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: of media coverage and just a lack of outlets that 139 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: are even right there too. So yeah, anyway, okay, so 140 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: how do extractive industries come to play the subnational level? 141 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I can start with that one. So, I 142 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 4: mean basically there's sort of the more overt ways and 143 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 4: then the more subtle ways. So the more overt ways 144 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 4: is that you know, these groups, the fossil fuel interests 145 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 4: have tremendously skilled lobbyists. They have tremendous resources to actually 146 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 4: help with drafting legislation and to actually intervene directly in 147 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 4: the legislative and regulatory process. And the regulatory process is 148 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: the process that does often gets less attention, right, So 149 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 4: like public utility commissions, or you know, in Texas, there's 150 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: this railroad Commission that actually, even though it's called the 151 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 4: Railroad Commission, it regulates the oil and gas industries. And 152 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 4: so there's all kinds of ways in which they can 153 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: just use their resources to directly influence the legislative process. 154 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: But then there's also all of these sort of ways 155 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 4: that they try to influence the discourse, right, like the 156 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 4: public discourse as well as the education system. So there's 157 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 4: this great article that we cite in our chapter looking 158 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 4: at Saskatchewan in Canada and how oil industry funded groups 159 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 4: have produced like educational resources that are used in classrooms 160 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 4: to like educate children about the realities with a lens 161 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 4: towards what's good for their industry. And then we can 162 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 4: talk about you know, think tanks and front groups as well. 163 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 4: But one of the big ways that they influence the 164 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: discourses by funding these nonprofit organizations that you know are 165 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 4: not called Exxon Mobile or Chevron or all these other companies. 166 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 4: They're called things like the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which 167 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 4: sounds so innocuous, right and so neutral. So those are 168 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: just some of the ways that they the more insidious 169 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 4: and ways that they influence policy, as well as the 170 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: more obvious ones like lobbyists and contributions and things like that. 171 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that reminds me. Just talking about the Texas Public 172 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: Policy Foundation reminds me of another way they get involved, 173 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: which is weird court cases. 174 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 4: Yes, and this is this is a side note, but 175 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 4: you know, the Texas Public Policy Foundation was also heavily 176 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 4: involved with Project twenty twenty five as well. 177 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll just devtail onto all of what you're saying. 178 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: So certainly, fossil fuel interests get involved through think tanks, 179 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: and it's really kind of a very clever way of 180 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: producing misinformation, and so that links directly to that public 181 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: opinion piece. So basically you've got fossil fuel interests funding 182 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: think tanks and funding these groups like Josh mentioned, and 183 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: some of these groups even sound like environmental organizations like 184 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: Protect our Coasts or Save the Whales, and so they 185 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: will create these entities, these little groups, they will push 186 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: money through them that spreads misinformation, and so we see this, 187 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: you know, especially on the East Coast in the US, 188 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: there's a lot of misinformation spread about offshore wind and 189 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: harm to whales. There's no evidence that that's an issue, 190 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: but EXI Mobile and other fossil fuel interests are funding 191 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: various entities that spread this idea. The same is true 192 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: of this idea that wind farms are extremely bad for birds, 193 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: for instance. So there's a lot of misinformation around those things, 194 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 2: and if you follow the money back, it goes all 195 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: the way back to those fossil fuel interests. 196 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: You talked about political elites earlier and how they play 197 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: into the public opinion piece too. Could I have you 198 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: unpack that a little bit and maybe give some specific 199 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: examples in the US and Canada. 200 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So, I mean politically elites are also part 201 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: of this misinformation ecosystem, if you will. And so I 202 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: just mentioned think tanks possil fuel interests. Certainly political elites 203 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: are joining in that effort and trying to influence public opinion, 204 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 2: downplaying issues and. 205 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: Making it sound like renewable as a problem. 206 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: In the chapter, we talk specifically in the US about 207 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: Texas and how politically leads the governor members of the 208 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: state legislature in Texas use a crisis a statewide power 209 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: failure back in twenty twenty one to suggest it was 210 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: actually renewables that cause this, But when we actually look 211 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: at the evidence, there were widespread failures related to natural gas, 212 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: but they kind of grab this issue and spread that 213 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: misinformation alongside all of these other powerful interests. And so 214 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: that's kind of a US example, Josh, I don't know 215 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: if you have a Canadian example you want to share. 216 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the Texas example that Becky mentioned, Like, in 217 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 4: addition to gas plants failing and being literally frozen during 218 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 4: that winter storm in twenty twenty one, there's also more 219 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: technical limitations on the Texas grid. For example, the Texas 220 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 4: grid is not adequately connected to the Eastern and Western grids, 221 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: so basically their supply is very scarce. And that's true. 222 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: And of course electrons are electrons, regardless of whether they're 223 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 4: generated from wind turbines or gas plants or coal plants, 224 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 4: and so those kinds of grid infrastructure issues are also 225 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 4: at play. And yet the instinct of political elites in 226 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 4: Texas is to immediately blame green energy and wind and 227 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: solar and say that the wind doesn't always and the 228 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 4: sun doesn't always shine and all. So in Canada we 229 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 4: see a lot of similar dynamics. One important difference though, 230 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 4: is that when it comes to electricity, Kiedro electricity and 231 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: nuclear play a much greater role in the country's electricity system. 232 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 4: And so that being said, there are particular provinces like 233 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 4: Saskatchewan and Alberta, for example, where the oil and gas 234 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 4: industry is extremely effective at shaping elite behavior as well 235 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 4: as public opinion. But I guess that's one difference that 236 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 4: I see between the US and Canada, and that in 237 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 4: the US there are so many states that have extractive industries. 238 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 4: They're the majority of the fifty states, whereas in Canada 239 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 4: it's actually the minority of the provinces. But then within 240 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: those provinces we see similar things in terms of fossil 241 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 4: fuel industries and elites to what we see in the. 242 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: US, which is why Alberta wants to secede. Right. Weirdly, 243 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: I have neighbors in Costa Rica who are from Canada, 244 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: from Alberta and worked in the tarcans industry, and like 245 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: have a giant we Love Texas poster in their house. 246 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 3: And like that sounds very unbranded. Yeah, it's a vibe. 247 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So in yeah, I wonder if you if 248 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: you feel comfortable talking about how this shows up in 249 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: Latin America too. 250 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 4: Before we move on to Latin America, I have to 251 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 4: talk about utilities. So utilities are really important because they 252 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 4: are often monopolies within their service territories. So corporations provide 253 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 4: a government function, which is you know, gas and electricity, 254 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 4: and so in some states and areas of the country, 255 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 4: the gas utilities and the electric utilities are separate companies, 256 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 4: but in other places they're the same, like for example, 257 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 4: National Grid. There are many utilities that provide both gas 258 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: and electric service, and they have historically been considered part 259 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: of the fossil fuel industry, but really they're actually quite 260 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 4: distinct and there are really their interests have to do 261 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 4: with maintaining monopoly control, and so rooftop solar or virtual 262 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: power plants or consumers that want to produce their own 263 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 4: clean energy right involves some independence from the grid. And 264 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 4: so you know, in general, more competitive resources are clean resources, 265 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 4: whether it's at the individual household level or utility scale. 266 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: And so we end up seeing utilities very much being obstructionists. 267 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 4: But instead of like where the oil and gas industry, 268 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 4: what they're really obstructing to is direct competition in the 269 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 4: utility industry. They're obstructing to the idea that anyone other 270 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 4: than them might control the grid, and so it's a 271 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 4: really interesting dynamic. And of course utilities, even though their 272 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 4: policy preferences are more nuanced, they're extremely powerful in state legislatures, 273 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 4: at public utility commissions, et cetera. And so there's sort 274 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 4: of this pivotal player where one once you can convince 275 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 4: them to go green, they can be really helpful, but 276 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 4: until then they can be very challenging. The other kind 277 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 4: of policies that they tend to oppose our policies known 278 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 4: as decoupling, where the revenue that they get is decoupled 279 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 4: from the energy that they sell, which of course is 280 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 4: a good type of policy for promoting energy efficiency. But 281 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 4: because their business model is so much based on building 282 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: new infrastructure and having demand be higher, it ends up 283 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: that they oppose those kinds of policies. 284 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: Isn't that kind of what happened with rooftop solar in California? 285 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: It was mostly utilities that were pushing that, right, Yeah, 286 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: so yeah. 287 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 4: The more people that put solar panels on the roof, 288 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 4: the more that the other customers that don't have solar 289 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 4: end up paying. But of course that's a result of 290 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 4: the rate design, the way that the public utility commissions 291 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: allocate costs, and that those policies have been largely shaped 292 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 4: over the years by the utilities. So it's like the 293 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 4: utilities influence has created this problem and rate design that 294 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 4: then conveniently gets blamed on rooftop solar as opposed to 295 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 4: all the efforts over decades to have you know, cost 296 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 4: of service regulation where the utilities get rewarded for building 297 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 4: more of their own infrastructure as opposed to compensating individuals 298 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 4: who choose to put solar on their roofs. Yeah. 299 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: Right, with both utilities and oil and gas in terms 300 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: of the organizations that they use at the subnational level 301 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: to kind of shape policy. Do you see their investments 302 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: in like community organizations and arts centers and all of 303 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: that stuff as part of that as well, like sponsoring 304 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: the Little League team and all that. 305 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: And sometimes it's Little League and sometimes it's like actual 306 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 4: sports stadiums and wings of museums like Oklahoma Gas and 307 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: Electric sponsors a big, a big wing of the Cowboy 308 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: Museum in Oklahoma City, which is very cool but also 309 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 4: completely unrelated to their business. They just are really good 310 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 4: at branding. 311 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, Virginia Dominion energy sponsors like various Christmas light 312 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: displays at gardens, and yeah, I mean they're very good 313 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: at branding. And it's adding to what Josh has said 314 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: about utilities. I know much less than he does, but 315 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: in Virginia, you know, Dominion is this really powerful investor 316 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: in utility. But they kind of swing a little back 317 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: and forth. You know, when there were Democrats in control, 318 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: they started to shift a little more towards more pro 319 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: renewable energy types of plans because they thought, well, this 320 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: is going. 321 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: To be the future, and so we need to shape 322 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 3: what it's going to look like. 323 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 2: And so they got actively involved in the legislative process 324 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: and shaping. 325 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: Okay, well we're going to do this, so we want 326 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 3: to make it as favorable to us as possible. 327 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: But once Republicans took back control of state government, Dominion 328 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: shifted the other way along with Republicans, and so they're 329 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: playing both sides sometimes to really just to ensure that 330 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: their business model performs the best. 331 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean that it's kind of like what 332 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: I was saying about like blaming you know, rooftop solar 333 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 4: in California. So because they literally run the grid and 334 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 4: they know more about the grid than any state policy makers. 335 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 4: They almost have sort of like the privileges of government themselves, 336 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: but the incentives of private companies. And that makes them 337 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 4: different than other fossil fuel actors. And it's kind of 338 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 4: like what Becky was saying is, you know, they try 339 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 4: to get ahead of things. They don't testify very often 340 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 4: at the public hearings because they've usually already done their 341 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 4: influential work at the Public Service Commission or at the 342 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 4: state legislature. So yeah, they're really interesting actors. 343 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just feel like they stay behind the scenes 344 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: a lot. People just don't think of them that often. 345 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 4: Right, They'll think of them when they see their name 346 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 4: on a subconscious level, like when they participate in a 347 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 4: sporting event or an arts museum, but then they don't 348 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 4: connect that all the way back to like their policy 349 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 4: influence over the clean energy transition. They're just like, oh, 350 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: how nice of them to sponsor this wing of the 351 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 4: art museum. 352 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: Okay, So Latin America. I'm curious what you guys saw 353 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: as not experts actually on Latin America, Like what jumped 354 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: out to you as key differences between that region and 355 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: what you've studied in North America. 356 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I would say the first is it's so 357 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: much more complex because certainly there's huge variation across Latin 358 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: American countries in terms of their governing systems. So some 359 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: are federal systems, some are unitary, but even some of 360 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 2: their federal systems don't look anything like the US federal 361 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: systems in terms of the autonomy granted the state and 362 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: local or subnational governments. And so that stood out to 363 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: me also just kind of more higher levels of political corruption, 364 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: less accountability, remnants of colonialism that really empowered certain interests, 365 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 2: especially extractive industries, and so there's, yes, it's just a 366 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: much more complex situation going on there, and so how 367 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: things go on in each individual country than Latin America 368 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: can really vary. 369 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, just to add to that, like it's pretty clear 370 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: from reading the work that our colleague Marcella put into 371 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 4: the chapter that one thing that's different is that a 372 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 4: lot of the energy, like the oil and gas companies, 373 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 4: are state owned companies, so they are actually part of 374 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 4: the national government, which makes the obstruction, which sort of 375 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 4: changes the whole lens through which you view obstruction, because 376 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 4: it's like the state is obstructing rather than different actors 377 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 4: trying to influence the state's government, and then they have 378 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 4: really weak institutions. Even though our institutions right now in 379 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 4: the United States are being tested. This is all new 380 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 4: for US, But in Latin America for decades they've been 381 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 4: dealing with the sort of corruption and weak institutions, So 382 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 4: that's another difference. 383 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. Actually, I was talking to someone in 384 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: Mexico who's like a climate campaigner, and he was saying 385 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: that the trouble in Mexico is not just all of 386 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: the things that you deal with in any situation where 387 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: people are like, but I use gas in my car, 388 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: so like what about that and whatever, but also that 389 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: in Mexico, saying something bad about Pemex is like saying 390 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: something bad about Mexican identity. 391 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 4: Yes, right, And epay FA, I think is the state 392 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 4: owned corporation Argentina, and I'm sure Brazil has something. 393 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: Marcella had described both in the chapter and discussions many 394 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: examples of these sort of corruption intertwining between government leaders 395 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: and these various extractive industries, and there's just so much 396 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 2: economic interests a way that you know, the money is 397 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 2: doled out in terms of royalties and all kinds of things. 398 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 4: And we talked about how in the US and Canada, 399 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 4: like there is clearly a partisan alignment with fossil fuel 400 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 4: interests like the Republican Party or the Conservative Party, but 401 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 4: in a lot of these Latin American countries, irrespective of 402 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 4: what parties empower, the industry you know, is one and 403 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 4: the same with the you know, the national government, and 404 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 4: they're so like it doesn't really or as much which 405 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 4: parties are in power. The obstruction is less dependent on 406 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 4: which parties are in power than it is here. 407 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I was going to ask you about that, 408 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: the party affiliation thing and how it comes into play there. 409 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean basically just less correlated. So certainly changes 410 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: in party leadership can produce changes in climate policy in 411 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 2: Latin America, but there's just a less direct link between 412 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 2: sort of right parties, left parties, center parties and climate policy. 413 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: Again, in Brazil, I think the assumption from outside Brazil 414 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: is like, oh, Lula's in charge, so he's going to 415 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: like do all this great environmental stuff. But you know, 416 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: he just passed this massive rollback of environmental laws there, 417 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: and he's as cozy with the Industrial Act guys as 418 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: any other Brazilian prisonent. 419 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, something else Marcella pointed out about land use. 420 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 2: So they're to these transnational companies that are coming in 421 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: and getting licenses to explore lands, and she mentions some 422 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: particular indigenous lands and they say they're there to explore 423 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: them for one reason, but then they may go in 424 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: and do something very different, and so that's also challenge. 425 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, awesome, let's talk about Europe. 426 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting about Europe. It's so it has this 427 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: supernational the EU, that dictates a lot of policy on 428 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: down and so certainly there's obstruction in Europe, but it's 429 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: happening at higher levels. And so it's not that there 430 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: isn't any pushback at the subnational level in Europe, but 431 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 2: it looks very different in terms of the kind of 432 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: ability to make a change. 433 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: It seems less impactful. 434 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: So, for instance, even when we see major protests, you know, 435 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: around renewable energy and concerns about renewable energy and economic concerns, 436 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: those haven't necessarily moved those subnational governments in terms of 437 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: rejecting renewable energy policy as much as it has in 438 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: the US. So I think sort of the summary of 439 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: the European section in terms of subnational so there is 440 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: some pushback. Much of it aligns similarly to other nations 441 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: in the North America and other parts of the globe 442 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 2: around fossil fuel interests and those sorts of things, but 443 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: it hasn't been as effective at the subnational level as 444 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 2: it has been in those places. 445 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 4: And just to add to that, like even the defining 446 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 4: the subnational level is a bit more complicated because of 447 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: what you're saying about the EU, Like in some ways, 448 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 4: the EU acts maybe somehow like more like what we 449 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 4: would see as a national government in other parts of 450 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 4: the world, and the actual European countries or states act 451 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 4: like states. So because there's the supranational level in addition 452 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 4: to the national and subnational you know, like Germany does 453 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 4: have subnational governments that are like relatively strong, but in 454 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 4: general it's the country. The two most consequential levels of 455 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 4: government are the EU and then the national country level. 456 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 4: And then the other thing I would just point out 457 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 4: about Europe is that it is, you know, even though 458 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: it's not accurate to say that obstruction doesn't exist in Europe, 459 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: compared to what we're dealing with now in our country, 460 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 4: we really do need to give the Europeans credit. But 461 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 4: a big part of it is that a lot of 462 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 4: the renewable energy industries were actually born in Europe. So 463 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 4: like a lot of the big wind companies like vest 464 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 4: Us or you know, avan Grid or Yberdrola, a lot 465 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 4: of these companies that are primoriarily clean energy we were 466 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 4: started in Europe there, and so as a proportion of 467 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 4: the interest groups or political land, political you know groups, 468 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry is weaker in Europe than it 469 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 4: is in North America or Latin America or pretty much 470 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 4: anywhere else in the world. But instead what you do 471 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 4: have in Europe is economic populism, which like the I'm 472 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 4: thinking about, like the yellow vest protests in France and 473 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 4: so well, obstruction may happen there, it's not as likely 474 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 4: to be coming from the fossil fuel industry. It's more 475 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: likely to be coming from you know, still from misinformation, 476 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: but also from you know, real economic inequality and how 477 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 4: that gets and how the clean energy transition or carbon 478 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 4: taxation might get blamed for that. 479 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: Okay, coming back to the US actually for a moment, 480 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: since we are in this current moment where I think 481 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: people are desperate to believe that the subnational governments can 482 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: do something. Obviously, this is a again, as you mentioned, 483 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: a double edged sword. It can go both ways, right, 484 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, what are you seeing the subnational governments doing 485 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: to try to sort of like go against the national 486 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: government on some of its energy policies. 487 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is obviously it's a difficult time for 488 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: people who are trying to advance reneable energy or advance 489 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: climate mitigation policy because of the national government. 490 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 3: We have a President Trump and office who's very supportive. 491 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: Apostle fuels and not at all supportive of renewables. And 492 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: so what does states and localities kind of do to 493 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: counterbalance that? I mean, for one, the states that have 494 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: been active in this space for at this point, you know, 495 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: around twenty plus years continue to advance their policies. So 496 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: we see states passing more stringent and renewable energy mandates, 497 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: one hundred percent clean energy mandates, that sort of thing. See, 498 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: you know, it certainly challenges to Trump's changes to national law. 499 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: So we see attorneys general firing back at what Trump 500 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: is doing through the executive branch. And so that's another 501 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: role for states in the US to kind of push 502 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: back and act as a sort of accountability mechanism to 503 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: the federal government. 504 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 3: And so there's a lot going on. 505 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, some states are doing new things, some states are 506 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: pushing back on federal power. But as you mentioned again 507 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: with that double edged or the states that were not 508 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: engaged before are certainly not still pretty much not engaged now. 509 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: So that obstruction at the subnational level really does matter, 510 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: especially in a power vacuum where the federal government is 511 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: either walking back or not doing anything to advance a 512 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: climate policy. 513 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 4: Right There's this concept in the political science literature called 514 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 4: fiscal federalism, which basically has to do with state. Even 515 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 4: though states have a lot of autonomy, they have become 516 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 4: in recent years, like aka Biden years, dependent on the 517 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 4: federal government and like the funds in the IRA the 518 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 4: Inflation Reduction Act to actually fund a lot of their 519 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 4: innovative ideas. So they're needing state level revenue sources to 520 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: become less dependent on the federal government to advance climate 521 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 4: and clean energy. And so I think there is probably 522 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 4: a slowing down even across all states right now, just 523 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 4: because there's this like frozenness. But like Becky was saying, 524 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 4: the Democratic attorneys general have also played a big role 525 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 4: in resisting a lot of the Trump decisions, which is 526 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: sort of ironic because previously to Trump, it was like 527 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 4: the Republican attorneys general that we're very active in like 528 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 4: slowing down, you know, what the Biden administration was doing. 529 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 4: And now we're seeing the Democratic attorneys general trying to 530 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 4: slow down the reversals of the Trump administration so that 531 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 4: court system and the federalism remains important as ever now 532 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,239 Speaker 4: under Trump. The other thing is that historically, just as 533 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 4: Becky said, it's been like a red state blue state thing. 534 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: But I'm going to be working on an op ED 535 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 4: because of some of the because of how severe some 536 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 4: of the changes are that Trump is making now, like 537 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 4: getting rid of the epas and dangerment finding. I really 538 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 4: think it's time for red states to find ways that 539 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 4: they can make progress, and it might mean not talking 540 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 4: about climate change and talking about it more in terms 541 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 4: of energy affordability now that renewable energy is cheaper local 542 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 4: economic development. In the early years of the renewable and 543 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 4: of renewable portfolio standards, like in Texas and other Red 544 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,719 Speaker 4: states like Iowa, these policies were effective because of their 545 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 4: economic benefits, and so like going forward, even though it's 546 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 4: been so polarized in the past. I think that encouraging 547 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 4: red states to use their power but to define the 548 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 4: issues in less polarizing ways can be a really important 549 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 4: strategy because the retreat, the degree of retreat that we're 550 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 4: seeing from national government is like unprecedented. Like they're not 551 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 4: just eracing what Biden did, They're like going further to 552 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 4: prevent future federal administration from attempting to do that. 553 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: So they've all but made it illegal to say climate change. 554 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 3: It's something so Josh's point, Yeah, if you can avoid saying. 555 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: Those words and focus on the economic issues, sometimes that help. 556 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: Sometimes also helps to focus on things like public health issues, 557 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: environmental justice. Broadly speaking, tying the challenges associated with climate 558 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: change their issues can help spur things along. 559 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: And we haven't talked about this at all, but a 560 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: kind of. 561 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 2: A new both challenge and in some ways opportunity is 562 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: data centers. 563 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 3: There. They're blowing up in the US. 564 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 2: In certain states more than others, and they've actually made 565 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: it harder in some states to promote renewable energy because 566 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: they take up so much energy that like there's a 567 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: need to keep fossil fuel systems online. 568 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 3: In the eyes of lawmakers. 569 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: And you know, certainly people disagree with that argument, but 570 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: in some states, including Texas, they're starting to think about, Okay, 571 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: maybe we do need to rein in the data centers 572 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: related to that energy affordability issue that Josh raised as well. 573 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: And so that's that's sort of a new issue within 574 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: state and local politics in terms of energy and climate, 575 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: is how to kind of grapple with data centers and 576 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: their expansion and how to maybe rein it in and that. 577 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 3: So that's a heavy debate we're seeing 578 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: MHM.