WEBVTT - How Ultraprocessed Foods Work 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.160 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.560 and there's Chuck and Jerry's even here, and this is 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:21.680 stuff you should know. Welcome everybody, Welcome. Yet another food. 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:26.160 Uh well, I was going to classify this. I don't 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.520 think this belongs with our food like coffee beans like that, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:36.040 but food industry, sure, sweet, can't stop, can't stop, can't 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:41.440 stop talking about food. That's what I say. I love it. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:46.240 This is more um yeah, food industry like um, massive 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.720 problem in the world faces now that kind of thing. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.600 It's it's in that sweet like the huge problem sweet. 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:57.120 That's where yeah, we do, and it's growing every day, unfortunately, 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.560 because we haven't solved the single one, Chuck, even though 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.640 we've tried. I know we're trying. But what we're talking 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.640 about today are called ultra processed foods. And a lot 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.720 of people say, you mean junk food, and yeah, it 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:14.520 is junk food. But it's applying science and public health 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.720 to the idea of what to do about junk food, 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.600 because as people look into it more and more, they 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.640 find more and more evidence that it's as bad for 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.360 you as you think it is. Maybe even worse. But 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:35.720 it's also painfully obvious that it's so fully entrenched in 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.840 cultures around the world that it's not going anywhere. We're 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.319 not gonna get rid of. You can't just get rid 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.240 of junk food. People survive on junk food, as we'll 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.000 see um. But so we have to figure out then 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.600 how to balance those two things, the presence of junk 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.480 food and the the harm that junk food can do 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.880 to your health. Yeah, and you know, I would even say, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.240 and I'm sure you would agree that calling it junk food, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.400 I think a lot of people might think, like, well, 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.960 I don't need Cheetos, and I hate that we're gonna 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.200 have to just rattle off brands like that. I love 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:15.280 a Cheeto every now and then Cheese Oh no, no, no, 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.639 that the ones that look like Little Caveman Club look 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.720 like that too. When I was a kid, I used 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.040 to I didn't eat many Cheetos then either, just because 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:25.560 we didn't have no money to buy Cheetos. We had 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:31.799 whatever the off brand was that came in, like gigantic bags. Yeah, probably, 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.320 but I hate that we're gonna have to name brands 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.840 here and there like that as reference. But let's just 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.799 say cheetos. Uh, but people might think, oh, I don't 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.560 eat cheetos, so I'm good. Uh. That's not true. Though. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.239 There are a lot of foods that you probably eat 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.800 that you don't realize. You may not call junk food. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:49.600 But if you look at the back of the package, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.920 you're like, oh, wait a minute, there's like fourteen ingredients 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.520 and two of them sound like food. Yeah, and that's 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.240 a really good indicator. Though what you're eating is ultra 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.320 processed food. Um. And that actually that term ultra process 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.359 food you may have heard before, but it's a relatively 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.600 recent development. I think it was two thousand and ten 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:14.480 when a Brazilian epidemiologist named Carlos Montero came up with 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:19.760 it as part of like a four point um food group. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.800 It was pretty obvious, but it was, But what he 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.400 did was not obvious. It was actually pretty revolutionary because 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:29.839 at the time in Brazil in two thousand and ten 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.520 and still today in the United States and plenty of 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.080 other countries, there was a focus on on the food group. Says, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:43.800 we know, I'm like grains in um, cereals, fruits and vegetables, meat, dairy, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.600 that kind of stuff. Right, there's we still talk about 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.800 that here today in the United States. So what this 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.240 guy said was like, that is so ridiculously confusing and 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.280 it's such a problem to keep up with that. I'm 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.400 going to basically take it upon myself to reclassify food 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.000 into easier to understand stuff. And that's where he came 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.520 up with ultra processed food. But he actually came up 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.560 with it from an observation, Chuck, that was kind of 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.640 like a mystery. At first. It sounds like a set 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:14.160 up to me, take it, Chuck, just so people know. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.640 We don't write down set chuck up for the next bit. No, No, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.120 it's just very organic, it is. And it's getting clunkier 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:29.320 as we're entering four teeth here. Organic and clunky sounds 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.839 like a set up. Yeah, he did notice something. He 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.839 realized that the purchase of actual sugar by Brazilians had 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.320 gone down a lot between the nineteen eighties and two thousand's, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.599 but obesity and type two diabetes were still on the rise. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.280 And I guess he thought, it's almost as if they're 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.680 getting all that sugar from other things that aren't just 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.880 bags of sugar. And so he looked to the to 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.920 the package food industry and came up with a system 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.120 to classify it, and never has there been a system 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.600 that should be an acronym. It's not so frustrating. It's 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.960 even capitalized nova in O v A and like what 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.800 does it stand for? Nothing? Absolutely nothing, not your ordinary 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:20.359 variant analysis? Uh yeah, yeah, I worked on it even 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.680 that's what I could come up with. Oh really yeah, Okay. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.400 I think the reason he chose novas because nova means 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.960 new star. Um so, I think he was saying, like 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.919 this is providing like a new north Star to guide 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.719 people towards nutrition. I guess or that he is the 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.760 new star of talking about food, right, That's that's what 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.839 he talks about himself as for sure. Uh so, I 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.000 guess we should talk about the four groups. Uh. Group 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.719 one is what you might call like whole foods, which 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.640 are it's just food. It's unprocessed, it's fruit, and it's meat, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.120 and it's the eggs and stuff like that. Uh you know, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:01.960 comes out of a chicken's butt and into your mouth. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.320 Hopefully there's something in between that happens though. Right then 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.520 that's that's a good point too, because people be like, well, 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.160 meats processed. Yes. Group one also includes minimally processed foods. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.680 So the distinction isn't that it's totally unprocessed. The distinction 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.440 is is that it's substantially intact, asn't been pulled apart 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.920 and put back together again. And it's nutrient composition as 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.760 it exists in the cow that's walking around or the 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.920 chicken that's walking around or the plant that's growing, remains 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:34.080 basically the same in this form, this minimally processed form. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:35.719 That's right. That's Group one, and that's what you should 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:41.040 shoot for. Group to our processed foods a little more processed. Uh. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.240 And you know we're talking about oils, packaged herbs. These 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.240 are things that are used as ingredients or things to 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.920 cook other things, right, yeah. Um, So if you put 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.000 Group one and Group two together, what you're doing is cooking, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.120 and you're coming up with basically Group three foods and 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.479 basically anything that you cook in your kitchen using normal ingredients, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.320 even things like cakes and cookies and things like that. 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:14.239 If you're using sugar and butter um and basically whole 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.800 foods from Groups one or two, you're you're coming up 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.800 with Group three, which are processed foods, but they're recommend 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.520 their recommended processed food. So the kind of foods that 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.880 you're making yourself or if you're buying it at the store, 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.600 it's being it's being processed in a way that is 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.160 still retaining as much of the nutrients as possible with 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.880 as few additional ingredients as possible. And the ingredients, like 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.320 you're saying before you can you can understand what they're 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.680 what they're saying in the ingredient list. Yeah, Like if 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.280 you see, uh, some strawberry preserves on the shelf of 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.560 a grocery store and it says and this is, uh, 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.360 this is actually in our research and something will point 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.960 out later again probably, but food brands are starting to 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.920 teut stuff like this, Like I bought some. It's we 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.080 don't get eat a lot of like frozen treats like 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.960 ice cream and stuff, but I got some because the summertime, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:08.960 I wanted to get my daughter some like a little treat, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.840 you know, a little frozen treat, like some fruit pops. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.840 And when you go down the fruit pop aisle, that 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.320 that aisle especially is made up of things where they'll 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.840 say like three ingredients and big letters on the front, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:26.440 like you know, cane, sugar and water and real fruits. Yeah, 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.280 that's the third ingredient, but that would be a group three. 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.160 And there are you know, I think the bell has 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.240 been ringing. So food companies are are beginning to tout 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.760 things like fewer ingredients here and there, uh, so they 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.640 don't fall into group four, which is the ultra process 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.640 foods that we're gonna talk about today. And these are 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.720 you know, contain a lot of engineered ingredients. Uh. When 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.280 you look at the back, that's when you're gonna see 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.160 things like soy protein and high hydrogenated fats and things 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.040 like that and things you can't even pronounce, right, um. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.880 And the longer the list of ingredients is, the likelier 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.560 it is to be in group four. UM. The more 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.560 difficult to understand ingredients are probably in group four. And 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.720 then also even without UM looking at the ingredient list, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.960 you can usually catch a group for type ultra processed 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:23.280 food UM because it's heavily marketed. There's lots of colors 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.880 and neat logos and stuff like that, and you've seen 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.600 ads for it on TV. That's definitely a hallmark, right, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.880 that's a definite hallmark of ultra processed foods. UM. So 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.400 you can usually tell from the packaging and then to 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.199 kind of meet the industry where it's going to um. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.920 Some people who are into the Nova system of food 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.439 groups say, actually, if you see a packaged food or 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.760 a pre prepared food that is making health claims, you 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.160 should actually take that as a signal that it's not 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.880 actually healthy, that that healthy foods don't have to tout 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.680 that kind of stuff. Unhealthy foods are the ones that 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.000 you have to watch out for. They say healthy, low fat, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.920 all that stuff, it actually means it's ultra processed. Right, 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:07.640 Like you won't see a bunch of bananas with a 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.840 sticker that says now with more potassium. No. And if 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.720 you want to kind of imagine what the differences between, 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.839 you know, where we are between ultra processed foods and 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.319 actual whole foods. Like imagine Mountain Dew, the Mountain Dew logo, 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.240 all of the Mountain Dew advertising you've ever heard. Remember 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.440 they used to say it was extreme with just an 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.920 X that is like classic ultra processed food marketing. Now 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.080 imagine yes, for sure. Now imagine that same ad campaign 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:40.080 was for pairs like it will make your brain do 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.800 a somersault just trying to even it's just trying to 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.800 come up with it, and that's shape it really kind 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.640 of brings in to start contrast the difference between ultra 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:53.040 processed foods and whole foods from groups one, two, or three. Yeah, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.640 it's pretty sad, and it's they've been Uh. I mean, 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.560 there's some staggering facts in here. The first one that 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.520 I came across was right here on our first page, 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.439 where it says that, uh, in the US and the UK, 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.160 ultraprocessed foods make up more than half of the calories 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:13.040 that we eat period. Uh, and they are on the rise. Uh. 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:17.000 They've they've shown that the percentage of adults US adults 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.120 diets that are consist of upfs or ultra processed foods 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.120 went from fifty three point five to fifty seven. And 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.240 that's from let's say, two thousand two to two thousand seventeen, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.160 which is a long time, but you know, of four 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:39.800 percentage point rise in like a total caloric intake is substantial. Yeah, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.040 And that means that since it was at fifty three 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.440 point five percent, already American adults have gotten at least 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.960 half of their calories for more than twenty years, at 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.360 least half of their calories from junk food for more 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.559 than two decades. And that's just the adults. Like, if 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.040 you look into studies of ultra processed foods, by far 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.479 the largest consumers of them are younger kids, in particular 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.120 younger boys. So if our if adults are getting that much, 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.719 I mean, it just makes you wonder how much how 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.440 much kids are getting And it just so happens that 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.280 that's our next stat uh. Yeah, kids. Over an eighteen 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.560 year period from ninety nine to two thousand eighteen, they 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.439 went from to sixty seven percent. And they found that, 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:28.880 you know, it's generally across all races save one, which 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.280 is pretty amazing and awesome. Hispanic adults don't eat nearly 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.480 as much ultra processed foods as other people. Uh. And 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:42.520 they've also found that it's basically across um income demographics, 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:47.120 although lower income uh, people with lower incomes do eating 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:51.480 more upfs, but it has been rising across almost all demographics. Yeah, 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.000 and um globally too, Like the US has long been 0:12:55.040 --> 0:13:00.000 feeding our kids and eating ourselves the ultra processed foods. Uh, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.600 but it's long been kind of a hallmark of a 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.720 wealthier country, ironically, because ultra processed foods are so cheap 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.160 compared to whole foods UM. But in other countries, as 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.440 they started to develop more and more economically UM their 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.120 intake of ultra processed foods has increased. In step two, 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.880 so you see ultra processed foods making up a larger 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.480 and larger share of the caloric intake of all people 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.480 around the world. It's becoming a new kind of diet 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.400 that wherever you go in the world, you're going to 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.840 be able to find basically the same food and it's 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.400 wrapped in extreme packaging and contain something that was extruded 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.600 and dusted with something that used to be cheese. All right, 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.080 that's a great setup. Uh, let's take a break and 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.000 we'll talk a little bit about where, or at least 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.959 what some people considered the big bang of upfs started 0:13:54.040 --> 0:14:20.080 right after this. By the way, Chuck extrusion, I was like, 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:21.320 I think I know what that is. I just want 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:26.320 to make sure you remember the Plato fun factory. Like 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.200 that thing that you you put the Plato in one 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:29.960 end and then you pulled the lever and it squeezed 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:34.520 out like a star shape or a moon shape. That's extrusion, yes, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.520 but they never called it the extruder In my day. 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:43.160 They called it the fun factory, the star maker. All right, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.160 So if you want to look to where some people 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.400 consider the Big Bang, or at least as um Anastasia 0:14:49.640 --> 0:15:00.080 marks de Salsado, Yeah, salceto, yes, yes. Uh. Anastasia the 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.320 journalist who wrote a book called Combat Ready Kitchen colon 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.400 how the US military shapes the way you eat and 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.760 lays claim to the fact that World War Two was 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.480 is uh known at least to this journalist as the 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.240 Big Bang of ultra processed foods and that revolution. Uh 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.440 we should point out this is nothing new. Canning, I 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:26.200 realized comes from a competition that was used or held 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.880 to help feed Napoleon's army. So there's been a long 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.440 history of food R and D when it comes to 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.240 feeding lots and lots of soldiers on the battlefield. In 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.440 a way that makes sense because you know, you obviously 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.640 have to have food that's not going to spoil, stuff 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.960 that light and that travels, and um, what it kind 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.480 of comes down to is getting rid of as much 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.720 water as you can from food, right, because that prevents spoilage. It's, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.800 like you said, makes it lighter, so it's easier to 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.280 ship and move around. Um. But it still should retain 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.320 mostly the same nutrient density, which is what you're really after. UM. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.040 And that's that's a huge, huge thing that kind of 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.760 came out of World War two, I believe, UM, which 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.320 was drying food, learning to dry not just food but 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.760 also coffee. UM. And apparently all of that that drawing 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.840 process came out of UM a way to to dry 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.560 and store plasma for later use. And they said, you 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.440 know what would would also go through this process really well, coffee? 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.240 That was it pretty amazing? Yeah, there was some that. 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.840 I mean, that is just one tiny little fact. I 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.600 think the one that really got me was something like 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.840 the McRib was actually born out of this same military 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.440 research into something called and this is an album title. 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.520 If I've ever heard one, fabricated modules of meat, that's 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.600 the Diarrhea Planet album. Oh man, they're not together anymore, 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.560 we heard from people. I think I knew they weren't together, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.920 but they'll always be together in my heart. Uh. And 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.920 this is very interesting too. What they've UM the start 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.280 doing was found out a way to remove or what 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.800 to end up with something called intermediate moisture foods. So 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.280 if you think of like a chewy granola bar, uh, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.520 that thing is chewy. It's not super dry, but it's 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.520 not super wet. And the power bar is something that 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.200 was born directly from World War Two. There was something 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.119 called a logan bar that was packed in the you know, 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.440 soldiers kits as a meal replacement, but it was designed 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:31.400 purposefully to not taste very good, so the soldiers wouldn't 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.119 just like dive in after it. It's sort of like 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.240 a last resort thing. And they're there in lies the 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.680 power bar. So if you're ever like, these things taste terrible, 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.280 you can thank the US Army for deliberately making them 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.800 taste terrible so that you don't want to eat them, like, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:51.119 you know, like their kudos, remember kudos, Oh yeah, I 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.840 love they were great. They were like a cross between 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.000 a candy bar and a granola bar, and they somehow 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.720 we're greater than the sum of all its parts. And 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.560 those were the kind of things that you're like, oh, 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.240 I like this, I think I'll have the rest of 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.480 the box. And that's another hallmark of ultra process foods, 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.959 as we'll see, I think though we can now not 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.240 avoid it any longer. We need to talk about processed 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.359 cheese and cheese dust. What the Army ended up calling 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:22.040 jungle cheese because they developed a new way to make cheese. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.119 The people have been making cheese for millennia and it 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.320 was great, but it didn't travel well. And so the 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.760 Army or I guess you know, the military industrial complex, 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.000 said let's find a way to make better cheese that 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.000 can travel, and they did it. They did so. One 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.440 of the huge challenges was as you dry out cheese, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.760 if you don't do it right, the oil separates out 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.399 of the cheese, it becomes sweaty, and the cheese you 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.320 have left with is oil and dry and not good 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.120 at all. So somebody figured out there was an actual guy, 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.080 George Sanders, who was a U. S d. A dairy scientist. 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.280 He figured out that if you dry the cheese at 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:04.480 really low temper the protein actually encapsulates the lipids the 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.000 fats and locks them in place. So then after that 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.600 you can pulverize it and dry it even further and 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.480 the fat will stay locked into it. And then you 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:16.680 can take that and you can either turn it into 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:22.320 powder or you can reconstitute it into whatever shape you want. Specifically, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.520 sliced cheese, which is those yellow squares of cheese. That's 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.840 what happens to him. Yeah, but when it came to 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.520 the powder, like if you've ever made that delicious still 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.080 delicious kraffmac and cheese and not the kind with the 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.800 packet squeezy cheese. Yeah, I'm talking that yellow orange powder 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:44.080 and you dump it in there with a little butter, 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:45.800 maybe a little heavy cream if you really want to 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.920 treat yourself, and you wonder what the heck is this? 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.360 It is cheese. It's just treat cheese that has been 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.040 ultra processed thanks to George Sanders. And he would shread 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.720 it up and then dry it out, and then it 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.080 would harden up, and then he would grind it and 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.600 then dehydrated even more, and eventually you do that over 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.920 and over and you get down to that beautiful orange powder. Yeah. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.760 What's confusing is there seems to be a discrepancy between 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.919 who first invented cheese powder. Was it George Saunders in 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.200 nineteen forty three? Um? If so, then how did Kraft 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.320 come out with their macaroni and cheese or craft dinner 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.399 if you're in Canada, Um, back in ninety seven with 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.320 powdered cheese. So it's weird. There's a there's a weird 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.960 misunderstanding around who created cheese powder, but it does seem 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.560 to have come about in the either the late nineteen 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.960 early nineteen forties, possibly through military research. But it was 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.919 that we got our first cheese dust snack when the 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.480 Freedo Company. I guess, I mean, was it a Cheeto? 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.680 Was it like a cheesy friedo? My friend, it was 0:20:53.720 --> 0:21:00.200 a cheeto or cho cho as what you grew up. Uh. 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.800 I've worked with the director years ago, Tom Schiller, who 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:06.199 was the remember the black and white SNL shorts from 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.639 the Blue. Yeah, he was like Al Franken's writing partner, 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.840 I think. Yeah, I was like Schiller's kind of head 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:15.639 p a. When he came to town, he would request 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.399 me because we were buddies. Uh. And he was great 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:19.919 with like one of the best dudess ever worked for. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.480 But he as a gag would um he didn't even 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.359 like Cheetos, but he would eat cheetos on set with 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.719 a white surgical glove just to make people laugh. That's funny. 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.760 There's these little finger protectors that look like tiny condoms 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.480 that you put on your fingertips and I used to 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:40.080 use those to eat buffalo wings just for effect. Well, 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.320 but that also has a practical effect, because that that 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.240 stink can go to other places, you know, if you 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.720 rub your eyes or oh sure, sure, sure, but I 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.200 still rub my eyes with little finger condoms on him 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.440 just that, Tom, No, you gotta take those things off. 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.480 I forget every time or accidentally swallow one when I'm 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.359 licking my fingers. I don't get the hot wings. I 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.600 haven't eaten a buffalo wing in years. Oh chuck, you're 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.119 missing out. I get the lemon pepper now if I 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.639 get anything. Okay, that's good too, But I think you 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.560 can mix it up a little bit, all right. They always, uh, 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.480 this is no good for my digestive system. So you 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.440 said something that I think is um. Well, I hope 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.760 your digestive system comes back around so you can eat 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:25.440 some buffalo wings. Um. But you said something a little 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.680 while back that I think is worth kind of fleshing out, 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.880 and that is that this stuff that's cheese dust used 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.560 to be cheese. It's actually made from real cheese. And 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.800 that is um an argument that a lot of people make. 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.080 When people poo poo junk food, ultra process food, that 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:45.960 kind of stuff, they're like, there's there. It basically amounts 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.199 to you're afraid of science, is what you're responding to. 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.760 This is still food. In some cases, it's more nutritional 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.240 than the whole food it was made from. Um, so 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.960 what's the problem. And we'll get into that whole thing. 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:01.600 But I just wanted to kind of point that out 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:03.800 because you did, I mean, you did hit on something 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:10.160 that's that's worth worth saying. Yeah, we're just leadites. I mean, sure, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:14.800 that's that's I'm a convert though. Um through some of 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.119 this one particular study that we'll talk about that I 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:20.159 think is very mind changing. Oh all right, that's a 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.639 nice tease. But first, Chuck, I think we have to 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.320 talk about corn because you can't really do all this. 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.680 You can't make very cheap ultra processed foods without very 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.960 cheap base ingredients. And corn is about as cheap as 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.199 they come in the United States. It is now because 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.240 they over the years figured out how to grow corn 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:43.560 much more efficiently and much more densely. Uh, the nineteen 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.680 twenties and thirties is when they started develop these new 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.600 strains of corn. The corn ears themselves are actually bigger, 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.680 and they could pack them in a lot more. And 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:57.080