1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's even here, and this is 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Welcome everybody, Welcome. Yet another food. 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: Uh well, I was going to classify this. I don't 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: think this belongs with our food like coffee beans like that, 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: but food industry, sure, sweet, can't stop, can't stop, can't 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: stop talking about food. That's what I say. I love it. 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: This is more um yeah, food industry like um, massive 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: problem in the world faces now that kind of thing. 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: It's it's in that sweet like the huge problem sweet. 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: That's where yeah, we do, and it's growing every day, unfortunately, 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: because we haven't solved the single one, Chuck, even though 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: we've tried. I know we're trying. But what we're talking 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: about today are called ultra processed foods. And a lot 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: of people say, you mean junk food, and yeah, it 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: is junk food. But it's applying science and public health 18 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: to the idea of what to do about junk food, 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: because as people look into it more and more, they 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: find more and more evidence that it's as bad for 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: you as you think it is. Maybe even worse. But 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: it's also painfully obvious that it's so fully entrenched in 23 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: cultures around the world that it's not going anywhere. We're 24 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: not gonna get rid of. You can't just get rid 25 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: of junk food. People survive on junk food, as we'll 26 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: see um. But so we have to figure out then 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: how to balance those two things, the presence of junk 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: food and the the harm that junk food can do 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: to your health. Yeah, and you know, I would even say, 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you would agree that calling it junk food, 31 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people might think, like, well, 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: I don't need Cheetos, and I hate that we're gonna 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: have to just rattle off brands like that. I love 34 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: a Cheeto every now and then Cheese Oh no, no, no, 35 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: that the ones that look like Little Caveman Club look 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: like that too. When I was a kid, I used 37 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: to I didn't eat many Cheetos then either, just because 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: we didn't have no money to buy Cheetos. We had 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: whatever the off brand was that came in, like gigantic bags. Yeah, probably, 40 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: but I hate that we're gonna have to name brands 41 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: here and there like that as reference. But let's just 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: say cheetos. Uh, but people might think, oh, I don't 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: eat cheetos, so I'm good. Uh. That's not true. Though. 44 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: There are a lot of foods that you probably eat 45 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: that you don't realize. You may not call junk food. 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: But if you look at the back of the package, 47 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, wait a minute, there's like fourteen ingredients 48 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: and two of them sound like food. Yeah, and that's 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: a really good indicator. Though what you're eating is ultra 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: processed food. Um. And that actually that term ultra process 51 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: food you may have heard before, but it's a relatively 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: recent development. I think it was two thousand and ten 53 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: when a Brazilian epidemiologist named Carlos Montero came up with 54 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: it as part of like a four point um food group. 55 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: It was pretty obvious, but it was, But what he 56 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: did was not obvious. It was actually pretty revolutionary because 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: at the time in Brazil in two thousand and ten 58 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: and still today in the United States and plenty of 59 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: other countries, there was a focus on on the food group. Says, 60 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: we know, I'm like grains in um, cereals, fruits and vegetables, meat, dairy, 61 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Right, there's we still talk about 62 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: that here today in the United States. So what this 63 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: guy said was like, that is so ridiculously confusing and 64 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: it's such a problem to keep up with that. I'm 65 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: going to basically take it upon myself to reclassify food 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: into easier to understand stuff. And that's where he came 67 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: up with ultra processed food. But he actually came up 68 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: with it from an observation, Chuck, that was kind of 69 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: like a mystery. At first. It sounds like a set 70 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: up to me, take it, Chuck, just so people know. 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: We don't write down set chuck up for the next bit. No, No, 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: it's just very organic, it is. And it's getting clunkier 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: as we're entering four teeth here. Organic and clunky sounds 74 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: like a set up. Yeah, he did notice something. He 75 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: realized that the purchase of actual sugar by Brazilians had 76 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: gone down a lot between the nineteen eighties and two thousand's, 77 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: but obesity and type two diabetes were still on the rise. 78 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: And I guess he thought, it's almost as if they're 79 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: getting all that sugar from other things that aren't just 80 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: bags of sugar. And so he looked to the to 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: the package food industry and came up with a system 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: to classify it, and never has there been a system 83 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: that should be an acronym. It's not so frustrating. It's 84 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: even capitalized nova in O v A and like what 85 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: does it stand for? Nothing? Absolutely nothing, not your ordinary 86 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: variant analysis? Uh yeah, yeah, I worked on it even 87 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: that's what I could come up with. Oh really yeah, Okay. 88 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: I think the reason he chose novas because nova means 89 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: new star. Um so, I think he was saying, like 90 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: this is providing like a new north Star to guide 91 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: people towards nutrition. I guess or that he is the 92 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: new star of talking about food, right, That's that's what 93 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: he talks about himself as for sure. Uh so, I 94 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: guess we should talk about the four groups. Uh. Group 95 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: one is what you might call like whole foods, which 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: are it's just food. It's unprocessed, it's fruit, and it's meat, 97 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: and it's the eggs and stuff like that. Uh you know, 98 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: comes out of a chicken's butt and into your mouth. 99 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: Hopefully there's something in between that happens though. Right then 100 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: that's that's a good point too, because people be like, well, 101 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: meats processed. Yes. Group one also includes minimally processed foods. 102 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: So the distinction isn't that it's totally unprocessed. The distinction 103 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: is is that it's substantially intact, asn't been pulled apart 104 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: and put back together again. And it's nutrient composition as 105 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: it exists in the cow that's walking around or the 106 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: chicken that's walking around or the plant that's growing, remains 107 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: basically the same in this form, this minimally processed form. 108 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: That's right. That's Group one, and that's what you should 109 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: shoot for. Group to our processed foods a little more processed. Uh. 110 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: And you know we're talking about oils, packaged herbs. These 111 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: are things that are used as ingredients or things to 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: cook other things, right, yeah. Um, So if you put 113 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: Group one and Group two together, what you're doing is cooking, 114 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: and you're coming up with basically Group three foods and 115 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: basically anything that you cook in your kitchen using normal ingredients, 116 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: even things like cakes and cookies and things like that. 117 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: If you're using sugar and butter um and basically whole 118 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: foods from Groups one or two, you're you're coming up 119 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: with Group three, which are processed foods, but they're recommend 120 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: their recommended processed food. So the kind of foods that 121 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: you're making yourself or if you're buying it at the store, 122 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: it's being it's being processed in a way that is 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: still retaining as much of the nutrients as possible with 124 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: as few additional ingredients as possible. And the ingredients, like 125 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: you're saying before you can you can understand what they're 126 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: what they're saying in the ingredient list. Yeah, Like if 127 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: you see, uh, some strawberry preserves on the shelf of 128 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: a grocery store and it says and this is, uh, 129 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: this is actually in our research and something will point 130 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: out later again probably, but food brands are starting to 131 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: teut stuff like this, Like I bought some. It's we 132 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: don't get eat a lot of like frozen treats like 133 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: ice cream and stuff, but I got some because the summertime, 134 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to get my daughter some like a little treat, 135 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, a little frozen treat, like some fruit pops. 136 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: And when you go down the fruit pop aisle, that 137 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: that aisle especially is made up of things where they'll 138 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: say like three ingredients and big letters on the front, 139 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: like you know, cane, sugar and water and real fruits. Yeah, 140 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: that's the third ingredient, but that would be a group three. 141 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: And there are you know, I think the bell has 142 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: been ringing. So food companies are are beginning to tout 143 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: things like fewer ingredients here and there, uh, so they 144 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: don't fall into group four, which is the ultra process 145 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: foods that we're gonna talk about today. And these are 146 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: you know, contain a lot of engineered ingredients. Uh. When 147 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: you look at the back, that's when you're gonna see 148 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: things like soy protein and high hydrogenated fats and things 149 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: like that and things you can't even pronounce, right, um. 150 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: And the longer the list of ingredients is, the likelier 151 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: it is to be in group four. UM. The more 152 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: difficult to understand ingredients are probably in group four. And 153 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: then also even without UM looking at the ingredient list, 154 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: you can usually catch a group for type ultra processed 155 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: food UM because it's heavily marketed. There's lots of colors 156 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: and neat logos and stuff like that, and you've seen 157 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: ads for it on TV. That's definitely a hallmark, right, 158 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: that's a definite hallmark of ultra processed foods. UM. So 159 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: you can usually tell from the packaging and then to 160 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: kind of meet the industry where it's going to um. 161 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Some people who are into the Nova system of food 162 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: groups say, actually, if you see a packaged food or 163 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: a pre prepared food that is making health claims, you 164 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: should actually take that as a signal that it's not 165 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: actually healthy, that that healthy foods don't have to tout 166 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Unhealthy foods are the ones that 167 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: you have to watch out for. They say healthy, low fat, 168 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: all that stuff, it actually means it's ultra processed. Right, 169 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: Like you won't see a bunch of bananas with a 170 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: sticker that says now with more potassium. No. And if 171 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: you want to kind of imagine what the differences between, 172 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: you know, where we are between ultra processed foods and 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: actual whole foods. Like imagine Mountain Dew, the Mountain Dew logo, 174 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: all of the Mountain Dew advertising you've ever heard. Remember 175 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: they used to say it was extreme with just an 176 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: X that is like classic ultra processed food marketing. Now 177 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: imagine yes, for sure. Now imagine that same ad campaign 178 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: was for pairs like it will make your brain do 179 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: a somersault just trying to even it's just trying to 180 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: come up with it, and that's shape it really kind 181 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: of brings in to start contrast the difference between ultra 182 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: processed foods and whole foods from groups one, two, or three. Yeah, 183 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: it's pretty sad, and it's they've been Uh. I mean, 184 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: there's some staggering facts in here. The first one that 185 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: I came across was right here on our first page, 186 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: where it says that, uh, in the US and the UK, 187 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: ultraprocessed foods make up more than half of the calories 188 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: that we eat period. Uh, and they are on the rise. Uh. 189 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: They've they've shown that the percentage of adults US adults 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: diets that are consist of upfs or ultra processed foods 191 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: went from fifty three point five to fifty seven. And 192 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: that's from let's say, two thousand two to two thousand seventeen, 193 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: which is a long time, but you know, of four 194 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: percentage point rise in like a total caloric intake is substantial. Yeah, 195 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: And that means that since it was at fifty three 196 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: point five percent, already American adults have gotten at least 197 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: half of their calories for more than twenty years, at 198 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: least half of their calories from junk food for more 199 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: than two decades. And that's just the adults. Like, if 200 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: you look into studies of ultra processed foods, by far 201 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,479 Speaker 1: the largest consumers of them are younger kids, in particular 202 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: younger boys. So if our if adults are getting that much, 203 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it just makes you wonder how much how 204 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: much kids are getting And it just so happens that 205 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: that's our next stat uh. Yeah, kids. Over an eighteen 206 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: year period from ninety nine to two thousand eighteen, they 207 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: went from to sixty seven percent. And they found that, 208 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's generally across all races save one, which 209 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: is pretty amazing and awesome. Hispanic adults don't eat nearly 210 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: as much ultra processed foods as other people. Uh. And 211 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: they've also found that it's basically across um income demographics, 212 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: although lower income uh, people with lower incomes do eating 213 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: more upfs, but it has been rising across almost all demographics. Yeah, 214 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: and um globally too, Like the US has long been 215 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: feeding our kids and eating ourselves the ultra processed foods. Uh, 216 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: but it's long been kind of a hallmark of a 217 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: wealthier country, ironically, because ultra processed foods are so cheap 218 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: compared to whole foods UM. But in other countries, as 219 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: they started to develop more and more economically UM their 220 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: intake of ultra processed foods has increased. In step two, 221 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: so you see ultra processed foods making up a larger 222 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: and larger share of the caloric intake of all people 223 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: around the world. It's becoming a new kind of diet 224 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: that wherever you go in the world, you're going to 225 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: be able to find basically the same food and it's 226 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: wrapped in extreme packaging and contain something that was extruded 227 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: and dusted with something that used to be cheese. All right, 228 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: that's a great setup. Uh, let's take a break and 229 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about where, or at least 230 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: what some people considered the big bang of upfs started 231 00:13:54,040 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: right after this. By the way, Chuck extrusion, I was like, 232 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: I think I know what that is. I just want 233 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: to make sure you remember the Plato fun factory. Like 234 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: that thing that you you put the Plato in one 235 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: end and then you pulled the lever and it squeezed 236 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: out like a star shape or a moon shape. That's extrusion, yes, 237 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: but they never called it the extruder In my day. 238 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: They called it the fun factory, the star maker. All right, 239 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: So if you want to look to where some people 240 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: consider the Big Bang, or at least as um Anastasia 241 00:14:49,640 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: marks de Salsado, Yeah, salceto, yes, yes. Uh. Anastasia the 242 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: journalist who wrote a book called Combat Ready Kitchen colon 243 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: how the US military shapes the way you eat and 244 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: lays claim to the fact that World War Two was 245 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: is uh known at least to this journalist as the 246 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: Big Bang of ultra processed foods and that revolution. Uh 247 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: we should point out this is nothing new. Canning, I 248 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: realized comes from a competition that was used or held 249 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: to help feed Napoleon's army. So there's been a long 250 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: history of food R and D when it comes to 251 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: feeding lots and lots of soldiers on the battlefield. In 252 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: a way that makes sense because you know, you obviously 253 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: have to have food that's not going to spoil, stuff 254 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: that light and that travels, and um, what it kind 255 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: of comes down to is getting rid of as much 256 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: water as you can from food, right, because that prevents spoilage. It's, 257 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: like you said, makes it lighter, so it's easier to 258 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: ship and move around. Um. But it still should retain 259 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: mostly the same nutrient density, which is what you're really after. UM. 260 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: And that's that's a huge, huge thing that kind of 261 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: came out of World War two, I believe, UM, which 262 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: was drying food, learning to dry not just food but 263 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: also coffee. UM. And apparently all of that that drawing 264 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: process came out of UM a way to to dry 265 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: and store plasma for later use. And they said, you 266 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: know what would would also go through this process really well, coffee? 267 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: That was it pretty amazing? Yeah, there was some that. 268 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean, that is just one tiny little fact. I 269 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: think the one that really got me was something like 270 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: the McRib was actually born out of this same military 271 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: research into something called and this is an album title. 272 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: If I've ever heard one, fabricated modules of meat, that's 273 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: the Diarrhea Planet album. Oh man, they're not together anymore, 274 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: we heard from people. I think I knew they weren't together, 275 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: but they'll always be together in my heart. Uh. And 276 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: this is very interesting too. What they've UM the start 277 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: doing was found out a way to remove or what 278 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: to end up with something called intermediate moisture foods. So 279 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: if you think of like a chewy granola bar, uh, 280 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: that thing is chewy. It's not super dry, but it's 281 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: not super wet. And the power bar is something that 282 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: was born directly from World War Two. There was something 283 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: called a logan bar that was packed in the you know, 284 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: soldiers kits as a meal replacement, but it was designed 285 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: purposefully to not taste very good, so the soldiers wouldn't 286 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: just like dive in after it. It's sort of like 287 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: a last resort thing. And they're there in lies the 288 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: power bar. So if you're ever like, these things taste terrible, 289 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: you can thank the US Army for deliberately making them 290 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: taste terrible so that you don't want to eat them, like, 291 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: you know, like their kudos, remember kudos, Oh yeah, I 292 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: love they were great. They were like a cross between 293 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: a candy bar and a granola bar, and they somehow 294 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: we're greater than the sum of all its parts. And 295 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: those were the kind of things that you're like, oh, 296 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: I like this, I think I'll have the rest of 297 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: the box. And that's another hallmark of ultra process foods, 298 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: as we'll see, I think though we can now not 299 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: avoid it any longer. We need to talk about processed 300 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: cheese and cheese dust. What the Army ended up calling 301 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: jungle cheese because they developed a new way to make cheese. 302 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: The people have been making cheese for millennia and it 303 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: was great, but it didn't travel well. And so the 304 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: Army or I guess you know, the military industrial complex, 305 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: said let's find a way to make better cheese that 306 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: can travel, and they did it. They did so. One 307 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: of the huge challenges was as you dry out cheese, 308 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: if you don't do it right, the oil separates out 309 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: of the cheese, it becomes sweaty, and the cheese you 310 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: have left with is oil and dry and not good 311 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: at all. So somebody figured out there was an actual guy, 312 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: George Sanders, who was a U. S d. A dairy scientist. 313 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: He figured out that if you dry the cheese at 314 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: really low temper the protein actually encapsulates the lipids the 315 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: fats and locks them in place. So then after that 316 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: you can pulverize it and dry it even further and 317 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: the fat will stay locked into it. And then you 318 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: can take that and you can either turn it into 319 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: powder or you can reconstitute it into whatever shape you want. Specifically, 320 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: sliced cheese, which is those yellow squares of cheese. That's 321 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: what happens to him. Yeah, but when it came to 322 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: the powder, like if you've ever made that delicious still 323 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: delicious kraffmac and cheese and not the kind with the 324 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: packet squeezy cheese. Yeah, I'm talking that yellow orange powder 325 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: and you dump it in there with a little butter, 326 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: maybe a little heavy cream if you really want to 327 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: treat yourself, and you wonder what the heck is this? 328 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: It is cheese. It's just treat cheese that has been 329 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: ultra processed thanks to George Sanders. And he would shread 330 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: it up and then dry it out, and then it 331 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: would harden up, and then he would grind it and 332 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: then dehydrated even more, and eventually you do that over 333 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: and over and you get down to that beautiful orange powder. Yeah. 334 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: What's confusing is there seems to be a discrepancy between 335 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: who first invented cheese powder. Was it George Saunders in 336 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three? Um? If so, then how did Kraft 337 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: come out with their macaroni and cheese or craft dinner 338 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: if you're in Canada, Um, back in ninety seven with 339 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: powdered cheese. So it's weird. There's a there's a weird 340 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: misunderstanding around who created cheese powder, but it does seem 341 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: to have come about in the either the late nineteen 342 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: early nineteen forties, possibly through military research. But it was 343 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: that we got our first cheese dust snack when the 344 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: Freedo Company. I guess, I mean, was it a Cheeto? 345 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: Was it like a cheesy friedo? My friend, it was 346 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: a cheeto or cho cho as what you grew up. Uh. 347 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: I've worked with the director years ago, Tom Schiller, who 348 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: was the remember the black and white SNL shorts from 349 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: the Blue. Yeah, he was like Al Franken's writing partner, 350 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, I was like Schiller's kind of head 351 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: p a. When he came to town, he would request 352 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: me because we were buddies. Uh. And he was great 353 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: with like one of the best dudess ever worked for. 354 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: But he as a gag would um he didn't even 355 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: like Cheetos, but he would eat cheetos on set with 356 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: a white surgical glove just to make people laugh. That's funny. 357 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: There's these little finger protectors that look like tiny condoms 358 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: that you put on your fingertips and I used to 359 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: use those to eat buffalo wings just for effect. Well, 360 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: but that also has a practical effect, because that that 361 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: stink can go to other places, you know, if you 362 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: rub your eyes or oh sure, sure, sure, but I 363 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: still rub my eyes with little finger condoms on him 364 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: just that, Tom, No, you gotta take those things off. 365 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: I forget every time or accidentally swallow one when I'm 366 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: licking my fingers. I don't get the hot wings. I 367 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: haven't eaten a buffalo wing in years. Oh chuck, you're 368 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: missing out. I get the lemon pepper now if I 369 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: get anything. Okay, that's good too, But I think you 370 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: can mix it up a little bit, all right. They always, uh, 371 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: this is no good for my digestive system. So you 372 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: said something that I think is um. Well, I hope 373 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: your digestive system comes back around so you can eat 374 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: some buffalo wings. Um. But you said something a little 375 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: while back that I think is worth kind of fleshing out, 376 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: and that is that this stuff that's cheese dust used 377 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: to be cheese. It's actually made from real cheese. And 378 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: that is um an argument that a lot of people make. 379 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: When people poo poo junk food, ultra process food, that 380 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, they're like, there's there. It basically amounts 381 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: to you're afraid of science, is what you're responding to. 382 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: This is still food. In some cases, it's more nutritional 383 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: than the whole food it was made from. Um, so 384 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: what's the problem. And we'll get into that whole thing. 385 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: But I just wanted to kind of point that out 386 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: because you did, I mean, you did hit on something 387 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: that's that's worth worth saying. Yeah, we're just leadites. I mean, sure, 388 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: that's that's I'm a convert though. Um through some of 389 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: this one particular study that we'll talk about that I 390 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: think is very mind changing. Oh all right, that's a 391 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: nice tease. But first, Chuck, I think we have to 392 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: talk about corn because you can't really do all this. 393 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: You can't make very cheap ultra processed foods without very 394 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: cheap base ingredients. And corn is about as cheap as 395 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: they come in the United States. It is now because 396 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: they over the years figured out how to grow corn 397 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: much more efficiently and much more densely. Uh, the nineteen 398 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: twenties and thirties is when they started develop these new 399 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: strains of corn. The corn ears themselves are actually bigger, 400 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: and they could pack them in a lot more. And 401 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: I believe between the thirties and the two thousands, an 402 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: acre of corn yield jumped from thirty bushel to about 403 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: a hundred and forty, which is a big I mean, 404 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: what is that a fourfold increase a little more? Actually, yeah, 405 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: it's like uh four almost five. Yeah, we we did it. 406 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: We got there. They got there and or we got 407 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: their math wise, but they got their corn wise. And 408 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: now corn is the largest crop in the United States. Uh. 409 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: It accounts for about all crop sales in the US, 410 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: with about only about a third of that being used 411 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: for actual food uh and some other industrial uses that 412 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: don't include ethanol or livestock teed right, right, But because 413 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: we're feeding most of that corn to our livestock and 414 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: then we eat the live stock, well, we were in 415 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: turn still consuming the corn which are young one way, 416 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: right sure, but we um, I didn't get that. But 417 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: I love the young ones so nice. Um. But wait, 418 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: So the reason corn is so profitable and so well 419 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: grown and so tinkered with is because it's so heavily 420 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: subsidized in the United it states, Like the government will 421 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: pay you to grow corn. Sometimes they'll pay you to 422 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: stop growing other crops to grow corn. Um. And you 423 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: if your if your crop goes bad, they'll give you 424 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: money for it. Because you try to grow corn. It's 425 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: just extremely subsidized, which means that, um, there's always a 426 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: market for it. You're always going to be able to 427 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: sell it. So lots and lots of people grow corn. 428 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: So that's what we use as our staple crop to 429 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: to make almost all of our other food from. And 430 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: that was discussed at length in the really great book 431 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: Derito Effect by Mark Shatzker, which we talked about in 432 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: our junk Food episode, because remember we did one just 433 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: on junk food. This is different, this is slightly different. Uh. 434 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: We grew a little corn growing up, um a couple 435 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: of times. I think it was kind of a pain. 436 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: So we didn't end up doing it more than like 437 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: once or twice. But we had a very robust garden 438 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: over about an acre. I lived out in the woods 439 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: like a you know, like a yokol. I've talked about 440 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: canny or on food and stuff, but um, corn was 441 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: something we grew a little bit every now and then. 442 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: How much do you want to talk about high fruit 443 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: just corn syrup? I mean we did a whole episode 444 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: on it, right, So how much do you want to 445 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: get into this should we tell people I would done again? Yeah, 446 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that we ever talked about how it's made, 447 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: did we? It seemed all new to me. No, we 448 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: talked about it. Well, I mean it's a typical. It's 449 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: a good, great example of Wow, you really just shifted 450 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: from this corn story of you growing it to whether 451 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: or not we're going to talk about high fruit chose corn. 452 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: So it was like a whip lash and now we're 453 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: talking about yeah, clunky, clunky, year four ten, Well why 454 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: don't why don't you go over it then? Because I'm 455 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: done with it now, I'm just kidding. Um. You should 456 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: talk about it though, because it is pretty interesting. Yeah. 457 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: And the reason why it's so interesting is because high 458 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: Fruit Choice corn syrup is just one of the many 459 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: things that are made out of a single like batch 460 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: of corn kernels. That's what makes it such a great 461 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: like poster child for ultra process foods because out of 462 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, a single kernel of corn, you get everything 463 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: from um, the like corn oil from the germ, um 464 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: from the fiber from the shell gets sent off to 465 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: be used in breakfast cereal. So if you see like 466 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: corn bran or corn fiber or something like that, it 467 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: was separated out from what eventually became high fruit toast 468 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: corn syrup. UM. The stuff that's left over is corn 469 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: starch and corn gluten, and gluten gets fed to the livestock, 470 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: and the corn starts you could just use around your kitchen. 471 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: They use it in building materials, UM, and that you 472 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: can also use it to create high fruit toast corn syrup. 473 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: So just that one process of taking some of that 474 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: corn converts it into all these different things from building 475 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: products to high fruit toast corn syrup to cattle feed. UM. 476 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: Just with this one type of corn dent corn is 477 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: what it's called. Yeah, it is. It's one of those 478 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: things where you wish HFCs wasn't so bad for you 479 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: and and everything, because when you look at that process 480 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: that you just described, it's hard not to sit back 481 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: and just and as science food science and pat themselves 482 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: on the back and just say, what a amazing process 483 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: we developed. That all of this stuff is being used 484 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: in all these different areas and in the end we 485 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: get are evil ingredient. Right Yeah, yeah, for sure, UM, 486 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: but I mean not all of it is evil. Like Um, 487 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: if you've ever had a cardboard box that you had 488 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: trouble pulling apart to recycle because the adhesive was so strong. 489 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: You can bet that was made with corn starch or adhesive. Yeah, 490 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: the adhesive, industrial adhesive. UM, some of them power some 491 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: of our machinery. Ethanol is made from a lot of corn. 492 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: So there it is like a real like you know, 493 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: pat on the back for science, like you were saying, 494 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: it's just that nutrition. Science, as we'll see, has not 495 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: figured out how to how to take that stuff and 496 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: make it work for humans, the way that we can 497 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: make a machine work with ethanol derived from corn. Yeah, 498 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: And I think where they I was about to say 499 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: where they aired, but they would say this was the genius. 500 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: Part of it was the corn syrup that they end 501 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: up with after all those processes. Uh is dextros basically, 502 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: And if they would have stopped there, it might not 503 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: have been so bad, but they went dextros just isn't 504 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: as sweet as we needed to be. It doesn't taste 505 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: like that sweet sweet sucrose. So let's make it sweeter. 506 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: Let's process it more and add an enzyme to it 507 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: and some uh, some pressure and some temperature and body 508 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: being bought a boom will turn it into fruit. Toast, 509 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: and that's sort of that that final step of the 510 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: process is really where it nutritionally went wrong. I think, well, yeah, 511 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: because don't forget to add the hydrochloric acid to turn 512 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: it into fruit toast too, you know. Yeah, Well, I 513 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: mean that's kind of one of the first steps, right, Uh, 514 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: that is that toward the end, that's where you when 515 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: you add like pressure and heat and everything I've been, 516 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: that's where it converts it. So yeah, I mean, like 517 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: it's the epitome of what people call like Frank and food. 518 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: And it's really really easy to tee off on if 519 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: you're a whole food proponent, and there are a lot 520 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: of whole food proponents, and they got a ton of traction, 521 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: especially in like the early two thousand's, early two thousand tens, 522 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: thanks in large part to Michael Poland's Omnivor's Dilemma, which 523 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: came out in two thousand seven and basically introduced everybody 524 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: to the concept that like we're eating all wrong. Essentially, 525 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: I want to point out that's your that was your 526 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: second Al Franken reference, Tom Chiller's writing partner, and then 527 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: frank and Food was that that was not Al Franken reference. 528 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: Oh was it? No, Although I'm picturing him like eating 529 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: like lucky charms and the couple are just like falling 530 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: out of his mouth onto his shirt. I have a 531 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: joke there, but I can't tell it, so uh yeah, 532 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: the omnivorous dilemma. There were a few other books that 533 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: lood from Michael Poland in Defensive Food, very big book, uh, 534 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: and then Food Rules, and one called Cooked about eight 535 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: or nine years ago. And if you've ever been anywhere 536 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: and seeing this slogan on a wall on a poster, um, 537 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: eat food, not too much, mostly plants. That comes from 538 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: Michael Poland, and that has become a bit of a 539 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: rallying cry for the eat better whole Foods movement. Eat 540 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: food like you know, food food, and don't eat too 541 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 1: much of it and try to mostly eat plants. And 542 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: if you literally do that, then you're probably gonna a 543 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: pretty good diet. Yeah. And they have some other like 544 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: rules of thumb to like don't eat food that your 545 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: great grandmother wouldn't recognize as food, um, which means you 546 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: could still eat oreos because they've been around since the 547 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 1: nine um. Also, I think we've talked about how grocery 548 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: stores are laid out before, at least in a video, 549 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: if not an episode. Um, And how if you hug 550 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: the outside perimeter, you're going to get the whole foods. 551 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: It's the middle aisles that the processed foods take up. 552 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: It's another we just talked about. Um. And then avoid 553 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: foods with like more than five ingredients. That's a little restrictive, 554 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: but you get the point. The fewer the ingredients, the 555 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: likelier it is to just be whole foods without a 556 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: whole bunch of added stuff and tinkering and engineering to 557 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: make it taste the way it's supposed to taste. Yeah, 558 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: And there's also you know, we should talk just for 559 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: a second about the other thing wrapped up in this, 560 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: which is food culture. Um Poland and uh is it Monteiro? 561 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: Is that what we're saying? Yeah? Or Montero Montero. They 562 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: both talk a lot about food culture, which is not 563 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: just the things you're putting in your mouth, but how 564 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: you look at food and dining in general. Which is 565 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: to say that they believe and I would tend to 566 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: agree probably that too many people these days are just 567 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: grabbing food as they quickly move about life from appointment 568 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: to appointment or commitment to commitment rather than the day 569 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: is where you could cook a meal and it sit 570 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: down as a family and eat it together. Uh. And 571 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: he's not just saying, like, you know, this is good 572 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: for the family, even though it is. They're just talking 573 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: about just societal and cultural Uh. I guess norms and 574 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: how they've changed over the years, and how we should 575 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: strive to sort of get back to that, because chances are, 576 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: if you're sitting down at a table with your family 577 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: and you're eating together, you're probably not you know, dump 578 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: on a bunch of chicken nugets on a plate, and 579 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: probably not. You may and that's what we did at 580 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: the seventies sort of Even if you are, though, it's 581 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: still probably preferable to eating them in the car while 582 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: you're hurrying, you know, to piano practice or something like that. 583 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: At least you're sitting down together, So there's that aspect 584 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: of culture to it. One of the problems, though, Chuck, 585 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: is if you've ever, you know, taken steps to replace 586 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: some of your ultra processed foods with some of you know, 587 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: whole foods that you cook yourself, the just the difference 588 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: in time that it takes to prepare those foods is 589 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: really significant and it can really tough. That just kind 590 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: of goes to underscore why ultra processed foods have become 591 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: so ubiquitous. They fit really really well into our current 592 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: culture of like go go, go, go, get another thing done, 593 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: sign up for another extracurricular activity, Like, um, you can 594 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: eat these foods like anywhere. They're available anywhere, and um, 595 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: they you can basically just snack throughout the whole day. 596 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: You'll never even need to eat a meal, and you 597 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 1: can do it in your car the whole time while 598 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: you're going from place to place. Yeah, I mean that's 599 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: one of the big criticisms of people like Poland and Montereiro, 600 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: which is like, who was cooking this stuff back in 601 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: the day. It was probably a housewife in the kitchen 602 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: or domestic servant or previous to that, and you know, 603 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: previous years enslave people. And it's really easy to sort 604 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: of sit back and say if you're in a certain 605 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: income bracket and say, hey, slow down cook your meal. Um, 606 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna get criticized. Probably it comes across as a 607 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: little tone deaf, especially when Poland says something that he 608 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 1: said in two thousand nine and an article that uh 609 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: seventies feminists uh thoughtlessly trampled the pleasures of cooking and 610 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: their rushed to get women out of the kitchen. Um, 611 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: you did say that men should also cook, but like 612 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: you can't laugh out a statement like that and not 613 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: expect blowback. Like someone has to cook these meals and 614 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: to income families, it's like it's it's tough. There's not 615 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: a lot of time to do that and to shop 616 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: for these foods. So we see why it's a problem 617 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: basically definitely. And there's more problems to you know that 618 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: you could use to critique the whole idea of you know, 619 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: eating whole foods and all of the extra time and 620 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: effort it takes. Um. But I say, we take a 621 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: break and then we come back and we talk about 622 00:35:49,760 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: the health benefits or problems of upfs. Let's do it, okay, okay, chuck. 623 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: So there's uh, there's one thing, um that a lot 624 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: of people say is like, there's some foods out there 625 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: that are more nutritious for you in their ultra processed 626 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: form than they would be if you made it yourself. Um. 627 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: The problem seems to be this that there's become a 628 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: focus on nutrients like the whole fat free thing back 629 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: in like the eighties and early nineties. Uh, the low 630 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: carb thing, like we focus on nutrients and food has 631 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 1: not has become not food anymore, and it's ultra process 632 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: form it's become. I saw it described as a delivery 633 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: system for nutrients. Were just obsessed with nutrients. That's what 634 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: you see touted on the packages of ultra processed food 635 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: that you're opposed to kind of take as a warning 636 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: signal to stay away from. The problem is is that 637 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: it's becoming more and more apparent that we can engineer 638 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: food all we want, but we don't understand the dynamic 639 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: of how nutrients within a food interact with one another 640 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: to faithfully recreate them, and so the food that we're 641 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: creating is substantially less healthy than the whole food versions 642 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: of it. The way that Montero puts it is that 643 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods are intrinsically unhealthy, even if you don't 644 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 1: compare them to anything else. If you eat ultra processed foods, 645 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: you're going to suffer greater health problems then you would 646 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: if you didn't eat or eat a less amounts of 647 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods. And that is the entire problem with 648 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods right now. Well, and that goes lockstep 649 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: with the fact that they are engineered to be um. 650 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: I guess he calls it hyper palatable formations. Uh, they're 651 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: sold in large rings, and they're easy to eat a 652 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: lot of, and they're made to be easy to eat 653 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: a lot of. They've actually looked at like the structure 654 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: of some of these processed foods. They make it harder 655 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: to feel satisfied, Like you literally chemically aren't achieving satiation 656 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: as quickly with these foods, so you're gonna eat more 657 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: of them. That's why somebody can sit down and eat 658 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: a sleeve a Pringles with the TV on without really 659 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: thinking about it, or those intermediate moisture foods that are 660 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: chewy and stay chewy for five years on the shelf. 661 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: Like they found that you with ultra processed foods, you 662 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: typically chew less. And one of the ways that we 663 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 1: become satiated, one of the ways that our body knows 664 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: that it's full is I guess it counts the number 665 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: of times that we chew. And just because we're chewing 666 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: less and we're eating more, that in and of itself 667 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: makes ultra processed foods less healthy than whole foods. But 668 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: the critics of the anti ultra processed food camp, even 669 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: proponents of ultra processed foods say, okay, that that's a problem, 670 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: and that's something that can be designed out. The if 671 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: you put nutrient against nutrient, if you put fiber against fiber, 672 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: calorie against calorie, um um, you know, vitamin D against 673 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: vitamin D in whole foods and ulder processed foods, they're 674 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: basically the same thing. People might eat too many ultra 675 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: processed foods, maybe you don't chew as much, but still 676 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: if if we if we changed that, they would be 677 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: the same. And that was the big critique on Montero 678 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: and ultra processed foods in general for almost ten years 679 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: until a really really important study came out in two 680 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen UM out of UM what was the National 681 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases in Maryland, 682 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: so this guy. It was a study led by Kevin 683 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: Hall Chuck and it's considered the gold standard of UM 684 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: of nutritional studies. It was a randomized controlled trial with 685 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: just twenty participants, but it was so oh well designed 686 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: that there's basically no critics of its methodology or findings. 687 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: It's just roundly touted as finally evidence that ultra processed 688 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: foods are, like Montero said, intrinsically unhealthy. Yeah, and we 689 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: should point out they did this study with just the 690 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: twenty people, because before this, everything you would ever read 691 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: about UPS were correlative studies and meta analyzes among huge, 692 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: huge populations. So they Kevin Hall, actually dug in on 693 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: a smaller level. Uh And, like you said, twenty people 694 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: spent two weeks and they were eating either almost all 695 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods or almost all unprocessed foods. But the 696 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: key here, like you were talking about, is they matched 697 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: these diets calorically. They matched it their protein, their fiber, 698 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: their fats and sugars. They tried to match them so 699 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: they were basically equal. And then they said, all right, 700 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: twenty people, uh, U ten go and eat however much 701 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 1: you want, and U ten go eat however much you want. 702 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: And then they rated those diets in the end just 703 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: this was of course subjective, but they rated them as 704 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: equally as good tasting. But the ultra processed food people 705 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: ate five extra calories per day. Yes, so that's like 706 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: eating an extra big maca day. Imagine if every day 707 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 1: you just also ate an extra big Mac on top 708 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: of everything else you or an extra an extra Taco 709 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: Bell beefy five layer burrito. So yeah, it's good in 710 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: moderation and on occasion, but eating one every single day 711 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: on top of the food that you ate, that's problematic. 712 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: And so they also found chuck that the people who 713 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,439 Speaker 1: um who uh were in the ultra processed food group, 714 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: they gained about two pounds over the two weeks, while 715 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: the control group lost about two pounds. So they found like, no, 716 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: this is actually this this stuff is is actually when 717 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: you compare apples to apples, the older processed food is 718 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: actually unhealthier. Like that it was finally proven what what 719 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: basically everyone suspected, but because it hadn't been proven, there 720 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: was room to argue against it. And since then it's 721 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: become harder and harder to argue in favor of ultra 722 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,479 Speaker 1: processed foods, at least as they exist today. Yeah, and there, 723 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just like how healthy are They're all 724 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: kinds of environmental concerns. We've talked a lot about bio diversity, 725 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: agro biodiversity and putting all your eggs in one basket. UM, 726 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: crop wise, is really bad if disease comes along, like 727 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: we've seen it happen time and time again through history, 728 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,959 Speaker 1: and we're at the point now. This is another sort 729 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: of fact of the show for me. UM. There are 730 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of edible plant species, but more than 731 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: half of the calories that humans on planet Earth consume 732 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: come from rice, corn, and wheat. That's it. I notice sing, 733 00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: that's putting your that's not agrobiodiversity. No, it's putting all 734 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: of your corn in one basket. That's right, Which is 735 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: a good way to carry corn. It is, um, not 736 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: in the basket. No, it's particularly a green and yellow basket. 737 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: That's right. UM. But I grow bio biodiversity. Is it's 738 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: an extra concern because it's kind of like, by limiting 739 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: our diet globally, we're also um, we're not only harming 740 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: our health, we're harming the ecosystems of Earth's health as well. UM. 741 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: And then in addition to that, all of that slick 742 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,959 Speaker 1: packaging and um and and wrappers and all that those 743 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: require natural resources to make, and they are automatically converted 744 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: into waste after you are sold. That that ultra processed 745 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: food and if you consider Earth's natural processes as belonging 746 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: to all humankind, it can kind of start to tick 747 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: you off that there's companies out there that are using 748 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: these natural resources to market. They're extremely unhealthy foods to 749 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: to me imediately be converted into waste. It's kind of irksome, 750 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: you know it is. As for Montero and Brazil, they 751 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: have made some big changes about eight years ago and 752 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: their government um created basically a whole new health guideline 753 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 1: kind of based on this NOVA framework, and they don't 754 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,879 Speaker 1: categorize foods according to like how much fat they have 755 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: and how much fiber and how many other nutrients they have. 756 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,439 Speaker 1: They based it on that NOVA framework and talk about 757 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: food culture a lot. They say to eat regularly and 758 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: carefully in appropriate environments and whenever possible in company like 759 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, you've got people with you. And some other 760 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: countries have followed suit over their Peru, Uruguay, Ecuador, France 761 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: has jumped on board as far as saying just try 762 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: and avoid ultra processed foods altogether, or at least try 763 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: and limit them. And we haven't seen it as much 764 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: in the US aside from what I mentioned earlier, which 765 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: is certain, uh, certain manufacturers sort of seeing the future 766 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: and knowing where this is headed and trying to, I guess, 767 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: get ahead of the curb and tout how few ingredients 768 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: they have. Sure one of the problems is in the 769 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: US the so Brazil said like, this is our new thing. 770 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,959 Speaker 1: These are food groups Montero's Nova system, that's what we do. 771 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 1: In the U S we're still doing those that food 772 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: pyramid kind of thing. And the U s c A, 773 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: from what I can tell, has no official position on 774 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: ultra processed foods or how much we should eat or 775 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: not eat. At some point, well, apparently back in the seventies, 776 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: George McGovern from either South or North Dakota tried to 777 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 1: get the government to issue guidelines saying like you should 778 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: eat less red meat and dairy. I think because there 779 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: were studies coming out that that we're saying it was 780 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: bad for you. And he got ousted from office in 781 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: the next election because of that by the Cattle Association, 782 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: And it kicked off a long trend to where food 783 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: producers lat be the government to not take official positions 784 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: against something. Instead they might target you know, nutrients, macro molecules, 785 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 1: things like that like eat less fat, not don't eat 786 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: so much red meat, um, and that that kind of 787 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: has the United States in a in a quagmire right 788 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: now where our scientists are fully aware of like the 789 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: health risks of eating certain kinds of food over others, 790 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,399 Speaker 1: and yet the government is standing mute as far as 791 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: advising citizens what to do or not do, which means 792 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 1: that marketers can fill in that vacuum and argue, no, 793 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: it's fine, just eat this, it's good. Yeah. I mean, 794 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: I think people like us who do this kind of research, 795 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: and I would argue, like a lot of our listeners 796 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 1: are genuinely curious people who see a headline about a 797 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: nutritional study and they will click on that and read that. 798 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: But the majority of people don't, and they, you know, 799 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: they may look to official guide like eating Health Eating 800 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,399 Speaker 1: Guidelines of the U s d A and not say, oh, 801 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: look at this article I saw and on this website 802 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: that clearly says to avoid this or that, you know, 803 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: to avoid red meat or something like that, where like 804 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: the lobby can't touch that, right. But also there's other 805 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: ways that the government can directly influence your diet. It 806 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: can say, okay, it's actually really bad to eat as 807 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: much corn as we're eating in all these different ways, 808 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna subsidize soy. Apparently soy is very is not 809 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: subsidized almost at all. So maybe they'll start subsidizing soy 810 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,280 Speaker 1: over corn, and that that will make the food producers 811 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: start using more soy rather than more corn, and then 812 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 1: people start eating soy, which may or may not be healthier. 813 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: So the government can make these kind of macro decisions 814 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: that affect people's diets even more than just issuing guidelines too. Yeah, 815 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: and some people say, just stick your nose out of 816 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: it and I'll do what I want. Yes, which is 817 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: totally fair. It's completely fair. But if from a public 818 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: health standpoint, when you look at you know, meta analysis 819 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: that says the higher amount of ultra processed foods you eat, 820 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: the higher your risk of death, UM, cardiovascular disease, type 821 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,240 Speaker 1: two diabetes, etcetera. UM, it is it's a it's a problem. 822 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 1: It's alarming, especially if you're seeing it developing earlier and 823 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: earlier and younger kids who are being raised on ultra 824 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: processed foods and as they grow into adults are going 825 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: to have no idea how to cook or what foods 826 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: to eat and won't be able to pass that on 827 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: to their kids. There's there. We're we're looking at a 828 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,800 Speaker 1: transitional generation right now, and it's not a transition in 829 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,240 Speaker 1: any kind of positive way right And to be clear, 830 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,800 Speaker 1: we're not arguing for some nanny state where the government 831 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: like outlaws ultra processed foods. We're talking about issuing fair 832 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,919 Speaker 1: and honest guidelines that people can still fund their nose 833 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: out if they want to write. And Plus, also, this 834 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: is not a hit job against ultra processed foods. There's 835 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people who say, again, like we've come 836 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: a really far away in um fortifying foods through processing 837 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: to cure certain diseases that used to happen to prevent 838 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: birth effects by adding fullate to breakfast cereals. Um that 839 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: that it's not that it's not processing itself, it's we 840 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,879 Speaker 1: don't quite know how to do it yet, or we're 841 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: adding too much sugar, we're adding too many trans fats, 842 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: and we need to go in and tinker with the 843 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 1: tastes and the flavors and also the nutrient composition, and 844 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: then we'll have everybody eating ultra processed food that actually 845 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: is good for you. Whether that whether we're able to 846 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: do that anytime soon, as that remains to be seen. Yeah, 847 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: there's a journalist named David H. Friedman who in the 848 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: Atlantic said, where there are too many people and we 849 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: can't literally can't feed the world on this delicious whole food. 850 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: Uh that's affordable. So maybe the onus is on some 851 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: of these companies to mess with their recipes a little bit. 852 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,360 Speaker 1: Maybe we should look to McDonald to tweak their recipes 853 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: just a little bit, not to where it tastes like 854 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: some drastically. You know, not not to push health food necessarily, 855 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: but you know there are things you can do. They 856 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: pointed out that the smell of vanilla can mask uh, 857 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,840 Speaker 1: if you reduce sugar content, it can mask that and 858 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,760 Speaker 1: trick you into thinking that it's still just as sweet. 859 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:26,000 Speaker 1: Or there um plant derived compounds that can replicate the 860 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: effects of fat on the tongue and basically you experience 861 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: that satiation that allows you to stop eating. And he's saying, like, 862 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: we can do this, we can make our ultra process 863 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: foods a little better at least. Yeah, and other people 864 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: argue like, just because the food is ultra process doesn't 865 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 1: necessarily mean it's harmful to you. Um. There was a 866 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty two meta analysis in the American 867 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: Journal of Epidemiology found the highest consumption of ultra processed 868 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 1: foods was associated with the highest risk of death, but 869 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,719 Speaker 1: the highest consumption of breakfast cereal was associated with a 870 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: much lower risk of death. So they kind of says like, Okay, 871 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,279 Speaker 1: just because this ultra processed food does not make it 872 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: inherently bad, and it also suggests that we may be 873 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: able to make healthier ultra processed foods. Again, the problem is, 874 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,399 Speaker 1: it seems like nutritional science is not at a point 875 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: where it can advise of food companies on how to 876 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: actually do that in as in a way that's that 877 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,760 Speaker 1: can actually replicate the nutrition you get from whole food. 878 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: We just can't do it right now. Yeah, And I 879 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,760 Speaker 1: think the truth is if a large fast food retail 880 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: chain tweak their recipes to make them a little bit better, uh, 881 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: people may notice there may be a stink, and then 882 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,839 Speaker 1: you know what, people would still go there and eat 883 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, Like Burger King has impossible burgers and 884 00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: I thought those were gonna last about five days, and 885 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: they've been on the menu for years, so obviously some 886 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: people are eating them. Which, by the way, that is 887 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: about as ultra process to food as you can find. 888 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: It just happens to be um healthier on meat. I guess. 889 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. It could be based, plant based. There 890 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 1: you go. Yeah, I had a Beyond burger the other day. 891 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 1: It was delicious, talk about really good. Do they make 892 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: you gassy? I mean, I couldn't tell any difference. I'm 893 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: always farting, so who knows your vowels didn't step it 894 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: up a little after business as usual? I have to 895 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: like sleep in another room after I feel like an 896 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:34,359 Speaker 1: impossible burger. Yeah, oh interesting, Okay, I'm considerate like that. Well, 897 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: I haven't had Impossible. I don't know how much different 898 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,160 Speaker 1: they are from Beyond. It's probably about the same thing. 899 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: It's basically the same. Although I will tell you this, 900 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:46,280 Speaker 1: I would but Buzz Market Incognitos chicken tenders. They are good. 901 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:52,359 Speaker 1: They nailed plant based. Yes, they nailed chicken tenders. Um Like, 902 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,439 Speaker 1: if you pull it apart and look at it, you're like, yes, 903 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,800 Speaker 1: this is not chicken, but it looks kind of like chicken, 904 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: and it tastes like chickenold study right exactly. But if 905 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,359 Speaker 1: they did a really good job, I would recommend those 906 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,839 Speaker 1: if you can find to try that, because fried chicken 907 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,560 Speaker 1: is one of my achilles heels, you know, anything else. 908 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 1: I mean, we could go on about this for hours 909 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: if we wanted to. Oh I've got one more thing, Chuck, 910 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,360 Speaker 1: I do have one more thing. So another huge critique 911 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: is that, UM, whole foods, non ultra processed foods are 912 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: typically much much more expensive than ultra processed foods, and 913 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,439 Speaker 1: so it's a lot easier for people to be like, yeah, 914 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: see whole foods. You know. UM, Not only is that 915 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,359 Speaker 1: not taking into account the time that people don't have, 916 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: it's also not taking into account the lower income that 917 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people have. So it's kind of shaming 918 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: people for what they they're only option to eat is. 919 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 1: And that's a huge criticism of of UM that kind 920 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,919 Speaker 1: of anti ultra processed food camp too well, and kind 921 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,320 Speaker 1: of ties in with the tone deafness of just spend 922 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: three hours shopping and cooking for your family and then 923 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 1: sit down and eat it together like the nine exactly. 924 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,800 Speaker 1: So let's it for ultra processed food for now, until 925 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: we do another episode on it in a few years, 926 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:17,120 Speaker 1: probably ultra ultra processed foods, right, somebody will come out 927 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: with another name for junk food and we'll do an 928 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,840 Speaker 1: entire new episode on it, or we'll just get to 929 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: that space food we all yearned for when we were kids, 930 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: where it's like a dinner pill. Yeah, apparently space food 931 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: sticks was like one of the first ultra processed foods. 932 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 1: It was Pillsbury. Did you ever have this? I mean 933 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: I had that, you know, ice cream of the future, 934 00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,000 Speaker 1: stuff that eventually morphed into dipping dots. These were more 935 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,040 Speaker 1: like an energy bar. Okay, yeah, I don't think I 936 00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: had that. Oh well, did it taste like ice cream? Maybe? 937 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: Then it was made of little tiny babies? Who knows. 938 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: It is funny though, how much like the Army and 939 00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 1: NASA has influenced the food that we eat. I got 940 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: nothing else, though, So hats off to NASA and the 941 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: Army for coming up with the food we eat. That's right. Uh. 942 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about ultra process foods, 943 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: go start reading up on it. There's a lot from 944 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 1: both camps on the internet to satisfy you, to satiate you. 945 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,239 Speaker 1: And since I said satiate, it's time for listener mail. 946 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this one of two kidney transplant emails 947 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna read. Uh, We're gonna read the next one 948 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,359 Speaker 1: in the next episode. But boy, we heard some really 949 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 1: good stuff and got great feedback and hurt from some 950 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: donors and some doctors. Uh. And this is from an 951 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 1: r N in South Dakota named Danielle. Hey, guys, longtime fan, 952 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: first time writer. I've been waiting seven years to be 953 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,799 Speaker 1: able to contribute to your lovely show, and that opportunity 954 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 1: hit after your kidney don't wrap. I'm a nurse who 955 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: works in a small city hospital, and the kidney transplant 956 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 1: for you did a great job with this info. But 957 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,400 Speaker 1: I do want to inform you that uh, anti rejection 958 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 1: medications must be taken for life, although the dose might change. 959 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: I think i'd said you can eventually get off of them, 960 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,879 Speaker 1: which apparently is we're just trying to be optimistic, right. 961 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,759 Speaker 1: Uh And Chuck, you said the fact of the show 962 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,280 Speaker 1: is that all kidney stay in your body. But here's 963 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: the fact of this listener mail. I had a patient 964 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:18,080 Speaker 1: at one time with five kidneys in their body because 965 00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: they had been through several transplants. They had chronic disease 966 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 1: because each kidney to last about ten or fifteen years 967 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,279 Speaker 1: and trust me, I was sure to pull up those 968 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 1: radiology images to see, but apparently Danielle believes in patient 969 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: privacy because daniel did not send those to me. That's 970 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:43,000 Speaker 1: that's nice. Thanks for spreading tolerance, unbiased, ish information, and 971 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: light conversation to the world. Very nice. Thanks a lot, Danielle. 972 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:51,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for saving lives and mending um broken kidneys. Yeah, 973 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: all five of them. If you want to be like 974 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,040 Speaker 1: Danielle and get in touch with us, we'd love to 975 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: hear from you. You can send us an email to 976 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at i heart radio dot com. Stuff you 977 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,759 Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of I heart Radio. For 978 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 979 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 980 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:15,800 Speaker 1: H