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Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,

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Speaker 1: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one. It's part

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Speaker 1: of my series of interviews with people talking about how

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Speaker 1: they take their days from great to awesome. I am

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Speaker 1: so excited to introduce you today to Kathleen Paley, who

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Speaker 1: is a lawyer, a dedicated volunteer, a mother, and a podcaster,

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Speaker 1: among other things. And what I love about talking with

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Speaker 1: Kathleen is that she is always looking for ways to

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Speaker 1: make the world around her better as she is also

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Speaker 1: looking for ways to make her own life run well. So, Kathleen,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Thank you for having me. I'm just honored

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Speaker 2: to be here.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, please tell our little listeners a little bit

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Speaker 1: about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll try not to repeat what you do share,

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Speaker 2: but you're right. I'm a lawyer and a mom. I

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Speaker 2: have two teen preteen kiddos, and I'm a litigator of

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Speaker 2: the big law firm in DC. And you put those

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Speaker 2: together and that's a lot to handle. But I don't

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Speaker 2: want that to be all of life. So I have

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Speaker 2: a few volunteer gigs and have so many kind of

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Speaker 2: thoughts about using our time and our resources in effective

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Speaker 2: efficient ways that I was like, you know what, I

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Speaker 2: got to start a podcast too to talk about all this.

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Speaker 2: So there are a lot of balls in the air,

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Speaker 2: and that makes for a very busy but also very

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Speaker 2: fun life.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I wonder if you could talk through a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your morning routine, and from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: you have more of a hybrid schedule where some days

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Speaker 1: you are working from home and some days you are

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Speaker 1: in your office, and obviously some days you're on the

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Speaker 1: road as well. But maybe you could talk through what

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Speaker 1: your morning routine looks like on those different days and

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Speaker 1: how you figured out what works for you.

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Speaker 2: All right, yes, you are very correct, I will say,

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Speaker 2: the days they're on the road, I have no morning

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Speaker 2: routine except get up and just like start grinding for work.

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Speaker 2: But when home there are two kind of templates Mondays

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Speaker 2: and Fridays. I work from home and that gives a

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Speaker 2: lot of flexibility in terms of how the morning goes. Now,

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Speaker 2: one of the things I think is incredibly valuable to

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Speaker 2: my own values and like the life I want to

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Speaker 2: live is I want to take my kids to the

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Speaker 2: bus stop, and so even though I have a teen

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Speaker 2: who is over six feet tall and does not want

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Speaker 2: to be taken to the bus stop, we still walk

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Speaker 2: together in the morning and it's a nice few minutes

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Speaker 2: to just chat and very relaxed. So on work from

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Speaker 2: home mornings, I get up at six fifteen and we

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Speaker 2: are out the door by six thirty going to the

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Speaker 2: bus stop. But that gives a lot of flexibility between

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Speaker 2: about six thirty and nine o'clock. Now, I used to

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Speaker 2: feel like as soon as I was done with like

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Speaker 2: official parental duties, I should start working, So by six

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Speaker 2: forty five or seven am, I should be doing you know,

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Speaker 2: billable lawyery work. And with time I realized that that

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Speaker 2: does not build the kind of life I want. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do all the work that needs to be done,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't need to be done at that time.

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Speaker 2: So now on those mornings when I'm working from home,

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Speaker 2: between about six forty five and nine o'clock, I use

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Speaker 2: that time for things that I find valuable. That includes

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Speaker 2: things like at this point, drafting podcast scripts and reading

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Speaker 2: and spending time with my other kid, or going Sometimes

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Speaker 2: I just go for a walk and it's just lovely,

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Speaker 2: especially now that the fall weather is starting to arrive,

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Speaker 2: to just go for a walk, stretch your legs, clear

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Speaker 2: your thoughts, get sort of energized for the day. And

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Speaker 2: so that means two Mores, Mondays and Fridays, I have

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Speaker 2: about two and a half hours of flexible time to

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Speaker 2: do stuff that I find life affirming. I also throw

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Speaker 2: in a load of laundry, you know, unload the dishwasher,

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Speaker 2: do those sorts of things to keep you know, the

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Speaker 2: daily rhythms of family life going. But those don't actually

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Speaker 2: take all that much time. They take kind of a

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Speaker 2: mental load, but they don't take a lot of time. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, this morning, we're filming on a Friday, and

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Speaker 2: I took the kid to the bus stop, and then

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Speaker 2: I wrote out some interview questions for my own podcast.

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Speaker 2: I read for a while, I journaled for a while,

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Speaker 2: and I went for a walk. And so you do

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Speaker 2: that twice a week. That's five hours a week of

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Speaker 2: really like good kind of you could almost call it.

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Speaker 2: I kind of hate the term self care, but in

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Speaker 2: a way, it's like self care time. Now three days

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Speaker 2: a week I go into the office. That starts with

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Speaker 2: take the kid to the bus stop, and then go

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Speaker 2: straight to the office. But that means I'm getting there

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Speaker 2: really early, like in the seven of hour, which gives

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Speaker 2: a great jumpstart to the day to get through the

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Speaker 2: backlog of things that need to be done and before

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Speaker 2: the office fills up. And so I like that sort

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Speaker 2: of quiet, slightly contemplative time at the office three mornings

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Speaker 2: a week when it's just me and my caffeine source

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Speaker 2: and my inbox, and I try to very much like

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Speaker 2: match the work to the energy levels and you know,

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Speaker 2: the rhythms that are going on, so I can blast

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Speaker 2: through a whole ton of stuff before people arrive.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, mornings really are a great time to get

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Speaker 1: things done. And I love that since Monday and Friday

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Speaker 1: are work from home days, you even start the week

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Speaker 1: with a big dose of this morning self care. Right,

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Speaker 1: it feels a little bit different than just diving straight

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Speaker 1: into to the office. It's probably a very different sort

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Speaker 1: of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that really dramatically reduces those Sunday scaries

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Speaker 2: when you know, oh, tomorrow morning, I've got a little

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Speaker 2: bit of flexibility. There's a little bit of a a

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Speaker 2: like a mental bridge to get into you know, the

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Speaker 2: weak full speed.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So your podcast is called minimal dish, So like minimalism,

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Speaker 1: but ends with minimal dish. So what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by minimalish and what is appealing to you about sort

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Speaker 1: of a lighter version of minimalism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I think the driving force

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Speaker 2: for me is that I want to remove distractions so

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Speaker 2: that I can focus on the very many, many cool

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Speaker 2: things that life presents, all of these opportunities. The issue is,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes the term minimalism is it's hijacked a

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Speaker 2: little bit into people who talk about like I want

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Speaker 2: to do nothing, I want total emptiness of the schedule,

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Speaker 2: and it's its own little cult in a way that

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Speaker 2: does not appeal to me. I do not want emptiness.

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Speaker 2: I do want not want nothing. Thing that is totally unappealing.

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Speaker 2: And so that sort of brand of minimalism you see online,

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Speaker 2: I think that it's boring and it can come off

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Speaker 2: as sort of preachy or self righteous. And what I'm

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Speaker 2: looking for is figuring out how to focus on what

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Speaker 2: I figure in my own life to be the right stuff.

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Speaker 2: But when there's so much going on, that does mean

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Speaker 2: needing to kind of cut out the clutter. And so

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Speaker 2: there are four kinds of clutter you could say that

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Speaker 2: I've tried to cut out in life. One is visual clutter,

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Speaker 2: stuff management, just you know, you know, when you've got

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Speaker 2: kids and you've got a lot of balls in the air.

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Speaker 2: I think we both have dogs. There's a lot to

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Speaker 2: keep going, and having just less stuff around, particularly for

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Speaker 2: those of us who are sort of distracted by visual clutter,

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Speaker 2: is helpful, just having fewer things to manage. I also

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Speaker 2: try to cut out schedule clutter and keep the commitment

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Speaker 2: levels to the right level. And one example is my

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Speaker 2: kids are both pretty competitive athletes, and we want them

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Speaker 2: to be able to play at a competitive level. But

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Speaker 2: we don't want entire weekends every weekend to be taken

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Speaker 2: up with tournaments where you're driving six hours away, you're

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Speaker 2: spending all day, you're staying the night, you're doing a

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Speaker 2: tournament the next day too. That's not the right level

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Speaker 2: of commitment for us, So schedule clutter. We let them

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Speaker 2: play in a travel league that has two games a week,

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Speaker 2: not like an AAP basketball league where you're doing the

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Speaker 2: tournament every weekend. We don't want to be essentially taxi

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Speaker 2: drivers for our entire lives, so schedule clutter. We try

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Speaker 2: to keep things at a level that like lets them

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Speaker 2: compete but doesn't ruin the family dynamic. I also try

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Speaker 2: to cut out financial clutter. That includes being very reflective

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Speaker 2: on what spending actually gives value to our lives and

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Speaker 2: what doesn't, and really questioning some questioning the defaults that

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Speaker 2: we tend to fall into, particularly when life is busy

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Speaker 2: and you could start throwing money at everything. I want

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Speaker 2: to figure out where I really get value from throwing

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Speaker 2: money at the problem, And like, right now I have

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Speaker 2: some cleaning folks in my home because I get value

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Speaker 2: from having someone help with that. But there are other

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Speaker 2: things that we don't, you know, we don't throw money

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Speaker 2: at that. Also that removing financial clutter also involves eliminating debt.

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Speaker 2: We just paid off everything as quickly as possible, and

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Speaker 2: that is such a reduced mental load of just worry.

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Speaker 2: It reduces your worry when you don't have debt. And

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Speaker 2: then finally, I know I've gone on a long time here.

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Speaker 2: I try to remove mental clutter, and that the way

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Speaker 2: I put it is, uh I have Maybe this is

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Speaker 2: just part of being in your forties, but I've really

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Speaker 2: stopped caring about the judgments of others and what they're

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Speaker 2: going to say about my choices. I'm willing to be

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Speaker 2: a little bit unconventional. I'm willing to be a little

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Speaker 2: bit weird, and if someone thinks that it's strange, I

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Speaker 2: really don't care. We're going to live lives on our

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Speaker 2: own terms. So that's my take on Minimalish, cutting out

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Speaker 2: various forms of clutter so that we can live the

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Speaker 2: lives that make us sort of very individually, particularly most satisfied.

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Speaker 1: Sounds good. Well, we're going to take a quick ad

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Speaker 1: break and then we're going to come back and learn

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Speaker 1: about a very cool project that Kathleen did before turning forty. Well,

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Speaker 1: we are back for those just joining us. This is

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Speaker 1: the longer version of Before Breakfast. Once a week or so,

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Speaker 1: I am doing an interview with someone who is doing

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Speaker 1: cool things in their lives, taking their days from great

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Speaker 1: to awesome. We are talking with Kathleen Paley, who is

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, a mother, a volunteer, and the host of

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Speaker 1: the Minimalish podcast. Well, Kathleen, you did a really cool

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Speaker 1: project of forty acts of kindness before turning forty. I

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Speaker 1: believe I wonder if you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that project and maybe just highlight one or two

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Speaker 1: of the things you did as part of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to memorialize turning forty in some kind

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Speaker 2: of way, but was not seeking a big birthday party

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Speaker 2: or anything that's actually turns out to be a good thing,

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Speaker 2: because I turned forty in the summer of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: so if there had been a desire for a big

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Speaker 2: birthday party, that was not going to happen with the

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Speaker 2: pandemic going on. But it's late twenty nineteen, and I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to memorialize this time and do something special.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, well, there are like bucket lists of

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Speaker 2: forty before forty things to do, adventures to have, and

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Speaker 2: that all sounded fun. But I thought, what about forty

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Speaker 2: small acts of kindness things that we could do within

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Speaker 2: our community, within our families, would just help brighten someone's day.

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Speaker 2: And so I put together list, took a few months

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Speaker 2: sort of iterating on it, and put together list with

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Speaker 2: a few categories of acts of kindness to do, and

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Speaker 2: over the course of the next you know, six months

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Speaker 2: or so, I knocked out almost all the list and

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Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. The categories included things

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Speaker 2: like goods and money, you know, giving goods in money,

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Speaker 2: respect and encouragement, time and talent, earth and environment, and

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Speaker 2: then within the family, intra family acts of kindness, so

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Speaker 2: a few of my favorite ones. I was shocked to

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Speaker 2: learn that in the community that we live in in

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Speaker 2: northern Virginia, which seems quite economically comfortable, there's still a

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Speaker 2: remarkably high percentage of kids in schools who face food insecurity.

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Speaker 2: They may get free lunch school, but when they go home,

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Speaker 2: those cabinets are empty. And it turns out that within

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Speaker 2: our community, there is a program where you can drop

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Speaker 2: off shelf stable foods at elementary schools and they will

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Speaker 2: very sort of covertly, quietly so as not to embarrass

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Speaker 2: the kids, put food into kids' backpacks that they can

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Speaker 2: take home so that there is you know, there's an

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Speaker 2: actual dinner on the table. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: forty acts of kindness was I went and bought several

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Speaker 2: hundred pounds of rice and several hundred pounds of dried beans,

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Speaker 2: and like raid down the car it was kind of

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Speaker 2: sagging in the back, but took them to one of

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Speaker 2: the local elementary schools and dropped them off so that

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Speaker 2: they would have their pantry full, so that all of

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Speaker 2: these kids could go home and have meals, particularly over

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Speaker 2: the weekends. That was so much fun. And I think

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Speaker 2: that there's some value in really doing like physical acts yourself.

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Speaker 2: I think you feel more involved in the process of helping.

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Speaker 2: I also like to cut checks for things as well,

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Speaker 2: but there was something about the very physical nature of

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Speaker 2: that that I found inspiring.

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Speaker 1: And then maybe you can talk about one that's a

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Speaker 1: bit more person to person that you did something encouraging somebody.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I actually I've received some books over the years

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Speaker 2: from folks where they said I loved this and you

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Speaker 2: may really value it, and I thought, I want to

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Speaker 2: do that for someone too, So I decided to choose

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Speaker 2: five books that I have found to be sort of

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Speaker 2: life changing or transformative and to give them to friends

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Speaker 2: with a little note saying why I thought that they

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Speaker 2: may find it valuable. And in fact, one of those

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Speaker 2: books was one hundred and sixty eight Hours that You

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Speaker 2: Have More Time Than You Think, by a certain Laura Vandercamp.

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Speaker 2: I have found it really inspirational. Back in my sort

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Speaker 2: of earlier parenting lawyering journey, when I was just starting

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Speaker 2: off with thinking about like how to make this better

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Speaker 2: richer life, I actually gave it to I think two

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Speaker 2: or three friends.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I'm glad to hear that I did not

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Speaker 1: ask Kathleen to say that. I'm very excited to do.

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Speaker 1: That's wonderful. So if somebody else was going to undertake

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Speaker 1: a project like this doing you know a large number

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Speaker 1: of random acts of kindness, I wonder if there was

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Speaker 1: something you learned along the way or some advice you'd

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Speaker 1: give to them to make it a more effective project.

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Speaker 2: I think setting out in advance the sort of general

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Speaker 2: categories that you want these acts to be in, or

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Speaker 2: general groups that you want to help can help structure

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Speaker 2: the thinking and can help sort of spur on creativity.

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Speaker 2: And then also just ask thoughtful people in your life.

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Speaker 2: You know, hey, how do you think I could help

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Speaker 2: with local animals or whatever it is your priority is.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes you can actually get pretty insightful, thoughtful ideas

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Speaker 2: from others, but you need to give them a prompt,

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Speaker 2: not just what can I do that's nice? You have

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Speaker 2: to say, I want to help the local poor, how

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Speaker 2: can I do that? What do you think? So? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: structure a little bit, and then just seek inspiration from

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Speaker 2: others who your respect.

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Speaker 1: Awesome We're going to take one more quick ad break

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Speaker 1: and then we'll be back to learn about Kathleen's current

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Speaker 1: time management challenges. Well, we are back. This is one

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Speaker 1: of the longer Before Breakfast episodes. I am interviewing Kathleen Paley,

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Speaker 1: who is a lawyer, mother, volunteer, podcaster, many different hats,

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Speaker 1: and she talked about a project she did of doing

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Speaker 1: forty acts of kindness before turning forty. So, Kathleen, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if you could talk about sort of your biggest

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Speaker 1: time management challenge right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my biggest time management challenge is that I am

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Speaker 2: a sucker for adding projects to my life and I

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Speaker 2: did recently start doing a podcast. So it's how to

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Speaker 2: work work in more while not feeling harried. And one

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Speaker 2: of the ways I've I've been able to do this

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Speaker 2: is to just look for what are the low value

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Speaker 2: pockets of time that I'm not It's not wasting, but

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Speaker 2: maybe not using optimally. And you know, we started this

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Speaker 2: episode talking about those Mondays and Fridays from home where

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Speaker 2: there's a big chunk of time several hours in the morning.

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Speaker 2: I've started to leverage that time to do more work.

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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily the podcast work, but sort of shift

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Speaker 2: more more things into those timeframes that I might otherwise do.

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Speaker 2: At another point, I'm sort of using the tiles or

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Speaker 2: the pieces of time, moving them around the way you've

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Speaker 2: talked about so much in your work. So you know,

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Speaker 2: by adding more, I've I've made myself be creative about

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Speaker 2: looking at where the low value time is being spent

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Speaker 2: and seeing where I can you know, eliminate eliminate that waste.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, I'm using my Mondays and Fridays

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Speaker 2: better and using little pockets of time on the weekends

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Speaker 2: when I might have otherwise been kind of scrolling or

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Speaker 2: just puttering around the house, carving out half an hour

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Speaker 2: here an hour there to move the tiles around and

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Speaker 2: be able to do the volunteer work and the podcast

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Speaker 2: stuff and the mom's stuff and you know all those

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Speaker 2: billable hours. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what's one of your volunteer gigs right now? That

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Speaker 1: is a project you've taken on but is adding meaning

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Speaker 1: to your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So for the last oh, I think we're on

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Speaker 2: year five now, I've found a commissioner on our city's

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Speaker 2: Economic Development Authority, did a two year stint as the

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Speaker 2: chair and then timed out under our bylaws, so I'm

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Speaker 2: back to not charing meetings anymore. But we work on

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Speaker 2: helping small businesses, both retail and you know, sort of

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Speaker 2: more traditional accounting firms and such, but helping small businesses

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Speaker 2: in the city thrive through a variety of programs and

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Speaker 2: you know, support systems, and so doing that work is

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Speaker 2: really exciting because over time you do start to see

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Speaker 2: a change in your community. The five year mark, I'm

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Speaker 2: now seeing projects that we started years ago really bear fruit.

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Speaker 2: And it's incredibly exciting when you walk around your community

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Speaker 2: and you say we had a role in that we

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Speaker 2: helped with that this place is better because of something

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Speaker 2: that we did. And so it's all you know, we

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Speaker 2: have staff and we have a bunch of volunteers and

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Speaker 2: they work together beautifully to make the place that we

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Speaker 2: live more vibrant awesome.

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Speaker 1: So, Kathleen, what is something you have done this week

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Speaker 1: to take a day from great to awesome?

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Speaker 2: Yes? So I have recently, so this week ish, I

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Speaker 2: have rediscovered my love of the library. I had thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I like audiobooks, but somehow that childhood or young adulthood

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Speaker 2: love of like reading the written word on a page

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Speaker 2: had somehow faded. And I realized it wasn't that it faded,

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Speaker 2: I just didn't have anything I wanted to read. And

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Speaker 2: so recently I've been going to the library, so rediscovering

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Speaker 2: the library, but then taking it up a notch in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks by using my Tuesday, Wednesday

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Speaker 2: Thursday commute time on the Metro to read a paper book.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm getting an hour each day, three days

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Speaker 2: a week reading a book in peace. You know, there's jump,

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Speaker 2: you know, clutter going on around you, there's movement going

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Speaker 2: on around you. But by just shifting that metro time

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Speaker 2: and not doing like an audiobook, but actually reading on paper,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting that great satisfaction of you know, reading something

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Speaker 2: on paper and the turn of the page again, that

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Speaker 2: physical act, the holding the book, There's something special about it.

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Speaker 2: And so the great to awesome is getting back into

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Speaker 2: reading and finding time to do it. That isn't taking

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Speaker 2: away from anything else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and since you're leaving early enough on those days,

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Speaker 1: you're probably getting a seat. I would imagine it's slightly

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Speaker 1: harder to read if you're holding onto a pool, like

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Speaker 1: flipping back and forth between the pages.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, yes, in the afternoon it is pretty crowded,

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Speaker 2: and I'm flipping the pages while like wrapping an arm

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Speaker 2: around the pole. But in the morning, it's it's a seat.

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Speaker 2: It's beautiful to see.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. That's so funny. I have memories many, many

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Speaker 1: years ago. I had a year long internship that I

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Speaker 1: lived in the Greater Washington, DC area, and I had

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Speaker 1: a fairly long commute and I wound up reading I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say it around with Anna Karinina Tolstoi's novel

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Speaker 1: on the Metro twenty minutes a day. You know, you

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Speaker 1: get through it over the course of a month or two.

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Speaker 1: It was a good read, you know, past the time.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you're enjoying your reading in the morning

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Speaker 1: as well. Do you have a particular life hack or

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Speaker 1: strategy you want to share with our listeners. I always

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Speaker 1: love to ask people if there's something really cool that

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Speaker 1: you've been trying that's made life more efficient that you

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Speaker 1: could share with us.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing we've been doing recently is whenever there's

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Speaker 2: a situation where someone's going to give us a gift,

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Speaker 2: like holidays, you know those are coming up, you know, anniversaries,

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Speaker 2: things like that, we've been saying, can you just give

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Speaker 2: us a gift card to a restaurant. It's because one,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to just spend less money eating out and

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Speaker 2: be more efficient in that way. And two we want

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Speaker 2: to do that. We're also big foodies, so I don't

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Speaker 2: want clutter at home. I don't want physical stuff more

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Speaker 2: physical stuff at home, but I do want to go

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Speaker 2: explore new restaurants and try new foods. So just letting

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Speaker 2: the folks in your life no like restaurant gift cards, please,

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Speaker 2: that is a very welcome gift. Has been super in

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Speaker 2: terms of now we get more experiences that we like

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Speaker 2: and we don't have another vase sitting around that's just

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Speaker 2: going to gather dust exactly.

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Speaker 1: With a little extra tip for our listeners that you

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Speaker 1: need to make sure you use the gift cards then,

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Speaker 1: so when it comes in, make sure you've got a

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Speaker 1: reservation and a date on the calendar, because otherwise those

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Speaker 1: become clutter in a different way.

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Speaker 2: They do, you know, Laura, Actually my kids have accumulated

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Speaker 2: gift cards from birthday gifts over time, although I do

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Speaker 2: swear the thirteen year old boys just circulate the same

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Speaker 2: Amazon gift card back and forth, but they've accumulated a

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Speaker 2: bunch of gift cards, and I took a page from

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Speaker 2: your playbook and told my youngest we're having a gift

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Speaker 2: card day. We're going to use up all of your

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Speaker 2: gift cards. So we went to Dick's Sporting Goods, we

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Speaker 2: went to a local bookstore. We didn't Amazon on order,

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Speaker 2: and he was like, oh, that was actually a lot

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Speaker 2: of fun. Like, yes, buddy, and now you have stuff

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Speaker 2: you want and I don't have a drawer full of

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Speaker 2: your gift cards.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly awesome. Well, Kathleen, this has been great. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell our listeners where they can find you?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I like I mentioned a couple of times. They

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Speaker 2: now have a podcast. It's the Minimalish Mom podcast. If

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Speaker 2: you have any interest in listening, it's on Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 2: and Spotify. You can also reach out on Instagram It's

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Speaker 2: minimalish Mom. I mean, the podcast name came from the

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Speaker 2: fact that I've had that handle since like twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: or something, so it was just the easiest way to

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Speaker 2: name things. But I would love to connect to folks

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Speaker 2: who share an interest in, you know, using our time

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Speaker 2: and resources better. I think it's a lot of fun,

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Speaker 2: so please reach out.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have a lot of people listening to this

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Speaker 1: podcast who want to use their time and resources better.

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Speaker 1: So Kathleen, thank you so much for joining us, and

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Speaker 1: thanks to everyone who has been listening. I would love

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Speaker 1: your feedback about this interview series, particularly if you decide

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Speaker 1: to adopt Kathleen's project of doing random acts of kindness.

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear about that. You can reach

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Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com and in

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Speaker 1: the meantime.

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Speaker 2: This is Laura.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of

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Speaker 1: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've

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Speaker 1: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at

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Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.