1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: Bombshell, a beautiful young bride to be stabbed twenty times, 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: including her back, the back of her neck, actually nicking 4 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: the dura of her spinal cord, the back of her head, 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: the top of her head, all over her body. It 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: was ruled a suicide. A bombshell in that case, and 7 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: tonight her family breaking their silence. Imancy Grace, this is 8 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with. 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: Us, she answered, on the floor with flood everywhere. 10 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 3: She stabbed herself. 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 4: Isn't I kicking out of her heart? 12 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 2: How did he know immediately that Ellen stabbed herself? Because 13 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: I would never think that my husband stabbed himself. I 14 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: just wouldn't believe that. So what was on the crime 15 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: scene that suggested a suicide? 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: Now, hold on, hold on, I don't want. 17 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: To put the cart before the horse. I want to 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: listen to that nine to one one call, because, as 19 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: many of you know, there's nothing like a nine to 20 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: one one call. 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Why is it significant? Why is it critical? 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: Because that is the most probative, in other words, proved 23 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: something evidence that I know of, because it takes a 24 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: jury or a listener such as ourselves. Back to the moment, 25 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: the crime is discovered. In this case, it was ruled 26 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: there was no crime, that it was a suicide. 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: I find it very. 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: Difficult to believe, and I'll tell you why. But first 29 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: listen to more of the nine one one call. 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 5: Yes, I went downstairs go work out. 31 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 4: I came back up the door and the lash. 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 6: My fiance is inside. 33 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 7: She wasn't. 34 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 8: She wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided. 35 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 4: To break it down. 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: I see her now, it's on the floor before she's 37 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: not She's. 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 4: Not responding, okay, breathing, Okay, I can. 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: Look at her. 40 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: Test I need to calm down. 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: I need to. 42 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: I really don't see you. 43 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 7: I'm going away her, get her and up and out up, 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 7: and I don't see her moving. 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: Okay. 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: You were hearing the voice of Ellen Greenberg's fiance, who says, 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: and let me understand that I've got these facts correct. 48 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: But joining me an all star panel including Ellen's parents, 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: Sandy and Josh. But to John Lucy joining us, a 50 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: journalist for a Kenlive dot com, and the Patriot niece 51 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: of Harrisburg, also the author of Kill the Story. 52 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: John, thank you for being with us. The workout room 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: was in the building. 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 9: Correct, Yes, there was a workout room in the building. 55 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 9: And just to get the semantics right, when he comes 56 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 9: back up, it wasn't bolted. It was a latch similar 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 9: to those you find in a hotel room that swings 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 9: over and class, but you can open the door a 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 9: couple of inches. 60 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 3: You know. 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 9: It wasn't a dead boat, it was, Yeah, it was. 62 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 9: It was a latch like that you're finding a hotel room. 63 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 9: So even if he would have the key, he'd be 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 9: able to get open the door a few inches. And 65 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 9: those locks, those latches are easily defeated. In other words, 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 9: there was some debate in the physical evidence whether the 67 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 9: door was actually kicked in. Did the slot that latch 68 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 9: as he described on the nine to one one tape. 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 9: That's one of the many anomalies among the evidence, and 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 9: I would be very clear. 71 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: We are discussing why this case was not fully investigated, 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: why there are so many gaping, glaring holes in the investigation. 73 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: Just for instance, the knife found plunged into Ellen's chest 74 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: was never fingerprinted, The crime scene was not kept pristine. 75 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: The apartment manager was allowed to bring in a cleaning 76 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: crew before the scene was ever processed. Items such as 77 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 2: Ellen's laptop. Wait, where's all the blood? There should have 78 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 2: been blood everywhere, but there's not. 79 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: Was there some sort of a cleanup? 80 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: We believe the body was moved before police arrived. That's 81 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: what I'm going to bring in Joe Scott Morgan, Professor forensics. 82 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: But the question is why has this case been stymied? 83 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: Why is it that the then district Attorney's office, the 84 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: then Attorney General's office, the then police didn't want this 85 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 2: investigation to go forward. Why did the emmy then change 86 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 2: the motive death from homicide to suicide? 87 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: Why did that happen? What happened in the interim. 88 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: There's just so much, But in the last days there 89 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: has been a bombshell. I want to go to Sandy 90 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents, who I now consider to 91 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 2: be my friends. They are broken, They are practically broke 92 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: because they have spent their life savings fighting this suicide ruling. 93 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: And you can find them at go fund me Justice 94 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: for Ellen. Sandy and Josh, thank you for being with us. 95 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: And I want to apologize right up front for replaying 96 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: the nine to one one call. I don't know if 97 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 2: you are desensitized to it yet, if You've listened to 98 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: it so many times, but I want to apologize. I 99 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: hate dragging you through that, but it's evidence we cannot ignore. 100 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 5: Thank you, Nancy. My perspective on this whole thing is 101 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 5: the fact that we have worked so hard and done 102 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 5: so much and now reached a really crescendo or epitome 103 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 5: of success. In some fashion, that this is made up 104 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 5: or has softened the blow of losing our daughter. We 105 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 5: still have that there, but instead of being in the 106 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 5: corner and crying or howling like I do when I 107 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 5: go to the cemetery, we have done something, and we 108 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 5: have done something that no one else has ever done 109 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 5: in a case like this, and we've gotten farther than 110 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 5: somebody in anybody in a case like this. So, with 111 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 5: the help of our attorneys, mister Pedroza and mister Tras, 112 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 5: we are very happy today. In some fashion. I know 113 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 5: that may not make sense to some people that we 114 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 5: should be grieving. We grieve, but we also have a mission. 115 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 5: We have a purpose, and you can see in those 116 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 5: pictures who she is. Recently, I've had two lawyers, one 117 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 5: working for the State of New York and one working 118 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 5: for the state, not for the state. One is a 119 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 5: criminal defensive lawyer. Tell me I should fire my lawyers. 120 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 5: I should stop spending money. I'm not going to get anywhere. 121 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 5: And as we're going to discuss today, we have really 122 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 5: got this case as far as we can go in 123 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 5: the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I believe I'm not a attorney either. 124 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: Well, I have to say you do have a success today. 125 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: For over thirteen years, you and Sandy have been fighting 126 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: this suicide ruling, and in the last days a momentous 127 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: turn of events, You've been turned down by every court, 128 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: by every prosecutor, you name it, Sandy. In the last hours, 129 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: you and josh Ellen's parents have achieved something that has 130 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: never been done before in that jurisdiction, and that is 131 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: you are going to be allowed, finally after thirteen years, 132 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: to challenge the suicide ruling. 133 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: Does that mean it's going to be ruled a homicide? 134 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 7: No? 135 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: Does that mean that there is a person of interest 136 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: our suspect. 137 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: No, means that there may may be an investigation of 138 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: your daughter's murder. 139 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 7: I never expected to get such great news and to 140 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 7: advance this far, but. 141 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 6: I'm not giving up. 142 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 7: She was someone that we were raising to be the 143 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 7: best possible version of herself, and puff she's gone, will 144 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 7: never be grandparents, We will never have grandchildren. But I 145 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 7: want to make her proud of us. 146 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: I hope we are. I want to ask you something, Sandy. 147 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 10: I remember the day that you and Josh and I 148 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 10: went to the cemetery and I walked up to where 149 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 10: Ellen is buried, and you, but. 150 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: Especially Josh, hung back. 151 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: You could hardly even bring yourself to walk up to 152 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: her plot in that cemetery. 153 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: Then you couldn't speak. 154 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: Why is it you couldn't bring yourself to walk up 155 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: to that headstone. 156 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 7: It's hard to believe that that's where her body was 157 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 7: laid to rest. And weeks after she had died in 158 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 7: the wintertime, and weeks after, I'd be driving at night 159 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 7: and it's rainy and cold and nasty, and I think 160 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 7: of my child body lying in the box in the 161 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 7: cemetery with all this nastiness all around her, and I 162 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 7: just can't believe. You know, she's just been completely eliminated. 163 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 5: This is not we expected to be at this time, 164 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 5: or through it to get to this time. We wanted 165 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 5: a quote unquote normal family. We wanted Ellen to be happy. 166 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 5: We wanted her to have a relationship like we did 167 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 5: do I mean, I don't know. We don't really just 168 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 5: discuss this very often, but most marriages don't last after 169 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 5: an incident like this, and we're now going on our 170 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 5: forty to fifty year of marriage of marriage, so there's 171 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 5: a lot here that doesn't speak that we don't speak about. 172 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 5: But we have fought for Ellen. Justice for Ellen is 173 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 5: the term we use. 174 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: It's a term. 175 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 5: Maybe it sounds like a cliche term. I don't know 176 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 5: how it sounds to other people, but that's what we 177 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 5: are doing, and that is something that we have that 178 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 5: keeps us, helps keeps us solid, real people together, and 179 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 5: even as a team, it helps us as a team. 180 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 5: I'm talking about with the attorneys we work with, with 181 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 5: mister Brennan, who work with everybody. It keeps us going 182 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 5: as a team. 183 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 4: Twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg found dead inside her 184 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 4: home multiple stab wounds to the back of her neck, 185 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 4: but investigators insist she took her own life. 186 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: I've learned so much about Ellen. 187 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: I only wish I knew her in life, instead of 188 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: getting to know her through autopsy reports and police reports 189 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: and what friends say and what her parents have told me. 190 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: This is a little bit of what I know. 191 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 11: Listen Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia. 192 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 11: At twenty seven years old. She and longtime boyfriend Sam 193 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 11: Goldberg have just sent out Saved the day cards for 194 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 11: their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia 195 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 11: and school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home, 196 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 11: Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's 197 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 11: home with her fiance, Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty 198 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 11: five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim. 199 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 11: When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the 200 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 11: door is locked from the inside. 201 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: Joining me as renowned forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor 202 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 203 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series now Body 204 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is going 205 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: to be very difficult for you, But in a one 206 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: word answer, did Ellen Greenberg commit suicide? 207 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: N Oh, No, impossible, impossible. 208 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: The first time I read this file, the first time 209 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 2: I read an article long ago about the ruling of 210 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: suicide ruling, I believe I immediately called you because how 211 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: can someone anyone stab themselves twenty times that we know of, 212 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: And we also know about the phenomena of overlapping stab wounds, 213 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: where where someone is stabed in the same spot. We're 214 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: dealing with that with Brian Coberger's case right now. So 215 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: there may be more stab wounds, but I'm gonna go 216 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: with twenty. 217 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with twenty. 218 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: How can you stab yourself twenty times? And I had 219 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: to write these down in preparation for talking with you 220 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: this morning, Joe Scott Morgan. 221 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: When at least three, at least three of. 222 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: The stab wounds could be deadly. For instance, stab woon 223 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: E as an elephant certainly fatal stab woon H happy, 224 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: fatal stab woon number two very likely fatal stab woon 225 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: K had to be inflicted with. 226 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: A serrated abrasion. 227 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: But I find that the wound are diametrically opposed to 228 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: each other regarding trajectory path. In other words, there are 229 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: vertical stab wounds, there are horizontal stab wounds, there are 230 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: oblique stab wounds. One that bothers me the most, actually too, 231 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: is the one basically on top of the head. 232 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: How do you attack yourself on top of your head? 233 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: And the wound where her dura of her spine is cut. 234 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: How do you do that to the back of your neck? 235 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: And then last, and most importantly, some of the wounds 236 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: were inflicted post mortem after death. Her heart was not beating. 237 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: How can she keep stabbing herself? 238 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: I mean how The thing about stab wounds, Nancy, is 239 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: that every time time an edged weapon is introduced into 240 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: somebody's body of pain center fires so over and over again. 241 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: You mentioned the number twenty so and even for our 242 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: listeners that are following this case, and many have for 243 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: now loath these many years, you can identify with just 244 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 3: a paper cut, perhaps at home, and how painful that is. 245 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: If you can imagine a serrated edge, and that's what 246 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: we're talking about, just like a steak knife, okay, And 247 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: it's roughly a five inch blade to the conversion from metric, 248 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: roughly a five inch blade. You've got this running running 249 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: along the surface. One of the very curious things, Nancy, 250 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: is the fact that you have a blade that is 251 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: entering the chest. And there's a couple of these along 252 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: the way where you're talking about. The blade is going 253 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: from right to left, then from left to right. And 254 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: here's one of the really curious things. There's one of 255 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: these injuries that actually the trajectory takes it upward like that. 256 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: Wait, which one is that? Which one is that? 257 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 3: I'd have to refer back to my notes at this 258 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: point in time, Nancy. But if you go to h 259 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: for instance, it's four centimeters deep and you're talking about 260 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: from left to right. However, if you go to. 261 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 2: I've got to ask you a very fundamental question, and 262 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: this is from a lawyer, not a medical professional, Josh Sandy. 263 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: Ellen's right handed? Correct? Ellen was right handed? 264 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, we've asked that before. 265 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Okay, are we sure because I've been told 266 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: she's right handed? 267 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: Are we sure Ellen was right handed? 268 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 9: Yes? 269 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: Okay, that's all I needed to know. You sure did? 270 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: You sure did? Justin Morgan, some of. 271 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: The wounds are left to right, which I completely understand 272 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: if she's right handed. But how how do you do, 273 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: in addition to all the steps to the back and 274 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: to the top of the. 275 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: Head and to the back of your necke. 276 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: How do you stab yourself if you're right handed from. 277 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: Right to left. 278 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: It's almost empirically impossible to do this, Nancy, because you're 279 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 3: talking about a readjustment of the blade. On the plane 280 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 3: that it's on, So you have to spin the knife 281 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 3: in a particular direction in order to achieve this. And 282 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: that's why I go back to this idea of the 283 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 3: paint centers that are firing. So in the midst of 284 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: all of this so called frenzy that would have come 285 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: along with a suicidal self inflicted stab wound, you're having 286 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 3: to readjust the knife backwards. You would invert the knife 287 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 3: and then pull it back to the original orientation. In 288 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 3: addition to that, and we're talking about now the injuries 289 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: that are posted here on the back side. 290 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: Okay, wait, I think I just figured out what you 291 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: were saying. You know what, You're going to have to 292 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: work on your testimony, Joe Scott, because if it took 293 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: me that long to figure it out, I. 294 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: Think what you're saying. 295 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: Let's pretend I've gotten the knife to get those serrations 296 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: on her body, she'd have to take it out of 297 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: She'd have to take the knife and turn it around 298 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: and commit the next stab. 299 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: And that is because we see which side. 300 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: Of the knife is cutting her, so she'd have to Okay, 301 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: here's an example. You know how there is the American 302 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 2: in the European mode of cutting your meat. Europeans allegedly 303 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: hold the knife in the fork and they never swap. 304 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: The American style is you swap, You cut the knife, 305 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: you cut the meat with your right hand, you put 306 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: down the knife, you take the fork out of your 307 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: left hand and put the meat to your mouth. 308 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: You swap back and forth. Right. Correct, That's what you're saying. 309 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: Would have to happen here for these serrations to be 310 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: performed by Ellen, she'd have to turn the knife around and. 311 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: Then continue stabbing herself. That did not happen. 312 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: And again, there is no person Avengelans, There is no suspect. 313 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: All there is is a big stinking mess because this 314 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: case was not investigated. 315 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 3: Tom Brannan joining me, Yes, okay, one of them. 316 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: Could I stop to you? 317 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 3: No, yeah, sure you could. But one of the biggest 318 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: full pause here relative to this report. And you're you're 319 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 3: breaking a norm here with this this autopsy report. Nowhere 320 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 3: in this autopsy report are the length of Ellen's arms mentioned. 321 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 3: And when you're talking about and I've been involved in 322 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 3: over seven thousand autopsies, Nancy, and anytime you're talking about 323 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: knife wounds and you're talking about events, you have to 324 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: measure the arm link to see if this is even 325 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 3: possible for this to occur. This has never occurred in 326 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: this autopsy. We've talked about this in the past, and 327 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: so I cannot understand why in the world they would 328 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 3: not have taken the time to do a shot. 329 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: I thought you were waxing philosophic again on the art 330 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: of a medical examination, but I've never heard that mentioned before. 331 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: The length of her arms were not taken into consideration, 332 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 2: or whether she was right handed or left handed. 333 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: Hold on, hold your thought. 334 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: Tom Brennan joining me, private eye consultant for the Greenberg family. 335 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: He's been on it from the beginning. Tom Brennan in 336 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: a nutshell. What happened? Every time we get together and 337 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: talk about this case, I learned something new. Like Joe Scott, 338 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: just describing the length of her arms was not taken 339 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: into account, and that is critical. But Nay now came 340 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: up with the fact that at least three of these wounds, 341 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: along with doctor Michelle Dupree. 342 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: We're fatal. But yet she kept stabbing herself. 343 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 2: In addition to the impossibility of killing yourself over twenty 344 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: stab wounds, if three of them were fatal and Mini 345 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: committed post mortem, my question to you, Tom Brennan, A 346 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 2: thank you for staying on the case. But the question 347 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: is what happened in between the medical examiner naming this 348 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: a homicide and then suddenly going, oh yeah, scratchy, scratchy, 349 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: I've now decided it's a suicide. 350 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: What happened in the interim, Tom Brennan, Well. 351 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 8: What you have to understand there were two meetings, unrecorded meetings, okay, 352 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 8: between the medical examiner and the police, and one meeting 353 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 8: was with the a member of the District Attorney's office, 354 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 8: the police and the doctor Galino and doctor Osborne, okay, 355 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 8: And at that meeting that's when doctor Osborne decided he 356 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 8: was going to change his findings from homicide to suicide. 357 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, hold on, John Lucy joining me from panlive 358 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: dot com. Did I just hear John Lucy, Tom Brennan, 359 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: stay that after the homicide ruling, the medical examiner met 360 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: with law enforcement and suddenly changed his mind. 361 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: Did I hear that? 362 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 9: Yes? 363 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: You did. 364 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 9: And the most powerful thing that has come out due 365 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 9: to the Greenberg family's persistence on this case is they 366 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 9: have been able to get those medical examiner officials under 367 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 9: oath in sworn depositions in which both Osborne and Galino 368 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 9: spelled out the fact that these meetings occurred. So it's 369 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 9: on the record, under sworn deposition that these meetings occurred. 370 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 9: And in addition to the US the PA Supreme Court 371 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 9: case challenging the cause of death ruling, there's another civil 372 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 9: action by the Greenbergs alleging a cover up among the 373 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 9: detectives and the ememe's office in Philadelphia, and they are 374 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 9: now in the process of moving forward with depositions in 375 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 9: that case, which is finally going to get some of 376 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 9: the detectives under oath so they can be questioned about 377 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 9: what happened at that crime scene on the night of 378 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 9: her death, what happened. 379 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 4: To beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court 380 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 4: agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling. 381 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: Controversial, well, that's certainly one way to put it. Ken. 382 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: We just all agree and if anybody on the panel disagrees, 383 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: up in how many times do I have to tell 384 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: you we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle with 385 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: Charles and Camilla jump in. Number one, no fingerprints were 386 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: taken on the knife. Number two, no forensic tests were 387 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 2: done on the door. Was it really latched? 388 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: Was it really was it broken into? What really happened? 389 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: Was there any evidence. 390 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: Taken regarding fingerprints on the rest of the cabinets? 391 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: Was luminol ever used? 392 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: Why was her laptop and her cell phone taken from 393 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: the apartment? Why was the cleaning crew called in to 394 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 2: clean the apartment before it could be fully processed. 395 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: There are so many questions. 396 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 2: Most important in my mind, what happened in that closed 397 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 2: your meeting with the medical examiner and members of law 398 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: enforcement who ruled it suicide on the scene before any investigation. 399 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: What happened in that meeting? 400 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of 401 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: what we know right now? 402 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: But first, more of the nine on one call. 403 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: And remember, no one has been named a person of interest, 404 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 2: no one has been named a suspect. But I can 405 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: tell you this, this was not a suicide. Why has 406 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: this case been suppressed? What is it that law enforcement? 407 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: I'm talking about, the district Attorney's office I'm talking about, yes, 408 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: I'm saying it, the Attorney General's office. Why don't they 409 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: want this case investigated? 410 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: What's the problem? Listen to this? 411 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 5: Okay, look, I have to tell you what to do. 412 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 5: So you get here so good? Yeah, okay, Well out 413 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 5: with me over the fall. 414 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: I have to right, okay, so you know, play on 415 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: her bank for her chest, gang for sure. 416 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: Okay, feel me out by her side. 417 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: You can't freak out, Okay, I'm trying trying to her. 418 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 9: Won't come off into a difference. 419 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 6: Oh god, she said herself? 420 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 3: Where she sole a knife? 421 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 5: Oh no, her NIC's sticking out? 422 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: What because the next sticking out of her heart? 423 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 12: Stand herself? I guess where you're going it. 424 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 7: I don't know. 425 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 4: Okay, Well, don't suck it. 426 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: So many things you're jumping out at me. From that night. 427 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 2: On one call number one, uh, when the caller is 428 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: told to try to do c p R, the caller says, 429 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: I have to right. Then he the caller says, oh 430 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: m g. She stabbed herself. Where did that come from? 431 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: Number two, number three, the caller says, she fell on 432 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: a knife. She fell on a knife. No, the knife 433 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: sticking out fell on a knife. That's a unique theory. Okay. Again, 434 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: I cannot reiterate enough that no one has been named 435 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: a suspect or a person of interest. 436 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: I want to go back to John Lucy. 437 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: Joining us, joining US journalists for pen live dot com. 438 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: And followed by Ben ay an. 439 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: Hour John who do you understand to have been at 440 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: that meeting where the medical examiner suddenly had some sort 441 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: of an epiphany and named the multiple stabbing a sealer 442 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: side based on. 443 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 9: The deposition of Galino and Osbourne. There were detectives who 444 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 9: were handling the case who were pressing their own version 445 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 9: of evidence of suicide, and the things that are named 446 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 9: in the deposition as their evidence is the lack of 447 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 9: defensive wounds on her hands. In other words, if she 448 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 9: was being stabbed by an assailant, you raise your hands 449 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 9: and you have stab wounds on the hands. That was 450 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 9: one and the second thing that was mentioned by those 451 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 9: detectives to the emmy's officials to change the ruling was 452 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 9: the locked door, the latch, the hotel latch which may 453 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 9: or may not have actually been broken off on both 454 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 9: sides enter that room. And again it all goes back 455 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 9: to the night of her death, and for whatever reason, 456 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 9: those responding detectives treated it as a suicide, and they 457 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 9: bought into the narrative established on the nine to one 458 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 9: to one call that was a suicide, and they did 459 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 9: not preserve the scene to be fully processed, and by 460 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 9: the time that the meme ruled it a homicide, and 461 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 9: by the time the detectives got back, you're right, it 462 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 9: was cleaned by a professional cleaning crew. And even the 463 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 9: video that the hotel manager shot of the apartment as 464 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 9: it existed before the cleaning that has been subsequently lost. 465 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 9: That was turned over to police, and now that tape 466 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 9: of what existed in that apartment before the cleaning is 467 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 9: gone as well. And that's all on the record. 468 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 4: The bizarre case of Ellen Greenberg, the twenty seven year 469 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 4: old Philly teacher found dead in her own home, stabbed 470 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 4: twenty times, ruled a suicide. 471 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: What happened to Ellen? Let me understand something to you. 472 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: J Justscott Morgan, professor, forensic's death investigator and author. Were 473 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: her fingernail scrapings ever taken? 474 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: Do we know? 475 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 5: Not? 476 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 3: To the best of my knowledge. 477 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: No, you've heard bandied about that there were no defensive wounds. 478 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: What say you? 479 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: And also, what do you make of markings on Ellen's 480 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: neck and multiple bruisings across her body in various stages 481 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: of healing. 482 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we refer to those in forensic pathology as resolution, 483 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 3: And so you've got multiple areas of small bruises contusions 484 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 3: that are in various stages of healing throughout the body. 485 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 3: And that's that's certainly very interesting. And I remember asking 486 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 3: Josh and Sandy years ago. I think we had a conversation. 487 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: I said, did Ellen have a problem walking or a 488 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 3: problem with her gate or was there is some kind 489 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 3: of inner ear problem where she had some kind of 490 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 3: problem with balance, She's bouncing off of walls and furniture, 491 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 3: and and they couldn't come up. You know, they said, no, No, 492 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: that wasn't the case. So you know, why would she 493 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: have And I even wanted to know she had some 494 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 3: kind of disorder, blood disorder or something. Maybe she's just 495 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 3: spontaneously bruising. I have no idea. But none of that, 496 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 3: none of that, none of that can be. 497 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Proved back to the markings on her neck. 498 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, when we're talking about markings on the neck, Nancy, 499 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 3: that's something that is so crucial relative to their current 500 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: status at autopsy, relative to how fresh they are are 501 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 3: they going through resolution at this point in time. And 502 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: I think that it's very important in this case because 503 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: the neck, the neck on anyone that is being that 504 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 3: is being stabbed. Is a point of contact where a 505 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: perpetrator would their hands on somebody's neck. It's a point 506 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 3: of control in order to drive a blade into somebody's body. 507 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 3: That has to be examined, very very carefully. 508 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: To Sandy Greenberg, what do you make of the fact 509 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: that no illuminol was ever used at the scene. The 510 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 2: scene was cleaned by professional cleaners. Her fingernails were never scraped, 511 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: and I firmly believe that there is evidence her body 512 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: was moved before police or first responders got there. 513 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 7: I'm horrified that she was treated so poorly, and I'm 514 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:46,479 Speaker 7: embarrassed for the Philadelphia Police Department. They wouldn't They wouldn't 515 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 7: do that to any of their if any of their 516 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 7: children were in this situation, they wouldn't be treated like this. 517 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 7: She paid taxes, and she deserves the same justice and 518 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 7: the same attention that everyone else gets or should get. 519 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 2: I'm just very curious, John Lucy, joining US journalist pen 520 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 2: Live and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, why her fingernails 521 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: were never removed to see if she scratched anyone how 522 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: with a straight face, a medical examiner state, how could 523 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: he state she had three potentially fatal stabs and kept 524 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: stabbing herself after that, those demilitating stabs. How she stabbed 525 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 2: herself in the spine, nicking the dura and kept going. 526 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: How she got stabs on the very top of her 527 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: head virtually impossible, No luminol was done, and very very significant, 528 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: John Lucy. There was dried blood going horizontally across her face, 529 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: dried that way, Yet she was found by first responders 530 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: sitting up, slumped up vertically against the kitchen cabinets. The 531 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: blood should have been going down, not across. 532 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: That indicates staging. John Lucy. 533 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 9: Well, we call that the wrong way blood. And it's 534 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 9: one of the many anomalies at the crime scene that 535 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 9: was treated as a suicide scene the night of her 536 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 9: death and thus never preserved and never processed. That is 537 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 9: the original sin of this whole case. And that's why 538 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 9: this case, even if it goes to the PA Supreme 539 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 9: Court and is ruled that they can be reinvestigated as 540 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 9: a homicide, likely never ends in a perpetrator being identified 541 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 9: because with the way that scene was handled, all that 542 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,959 Speaker 9: evidence was erased as for that and the spinal cord 543 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 9: specimen that was preserved from the original autopsy, but it 544 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 9: was never fully sectioned and photographed until many years later, 545 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 9: after the Greenbergs kept up their own investigation and Galino 546 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 9: finally turned that Dora over to another assistant. Emmy. 547 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: She processed it, she investigated. 548 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 9: It, and she's the first one to put on the 549 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 9: record in a sworn deposition that the spinal cord wound 550 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 9: had no bleeding associated with it, meaning it was a 551 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 9: post mortem wound. And that is all on the record 552 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 9: in the sworn depositions that the Greenbergs have secured as 553 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 9: part of their lawsuits. 554 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 12: The body of Ellen Greenberg is transported to the medical 555 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 12: examiner's office with the knife still lodged in her chest. 556 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 12: Doctor Marlon Osborne discovers Ellen has been stabbed twenty times 557 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 12: in the chest, neck, and head. Ten of the stab 558 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 12: wounds are to her back and neck, eight of the 559 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 12: stab wounds are to her chest. Doctor Osborne notes that 560 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 12: the knife embedded in her left chest is through her clothing. 561 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 12: Ellen Greenberg is wearing two shirts when she is stabbed, 562 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 12: and the defects in the shirts are consistent with the 563 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 12: underlying wounds. 564 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 11: And more significantly, listen performing the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg, 565 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 11: doctor Marlon Osborne notes that Beyond the stabs to the 566 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 11: back and the neck area, Ellen also has a two 567 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 11: inch stab wound to her stomach and a two and 568 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 11: a half inch long gash across her scalp. Ellen also 569 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 11: has eleven bruises all over her body, her right arm, leg, 570 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 11: and abdomen that are all in various stages of healing. 571 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,879 Speaker 11: Doctor Marlon Osborne rules Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide. 572 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: I don't understand so many aspects of this case. 573 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: But Sandy and Josh Greenberg breaking their silence, now, how 574 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: could Ellen, who is right handed, stab herself repeatedly in 575 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 2: her right arm? How how do you with your right 576 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 2: hand stab yourself in your right arm? And who could 577 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 2: keep stabbing themselves after three fatal stab wounds. 578 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 5: The whole thing is just a I can't say it 579 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 5: on the air, but it is just a big mess. 580 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 5: It doesn't make any sense. None of it makes any sense. 581 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 5: The fact that two knives makes no sense, the fact 582 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 5: that the way the wounds are make no sense. 583 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: The fact she has. 584 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 5: A brutal wound on the top of her head makes 585 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 5: no sense. 586 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: Sandy, why is. 587 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: It so important, as you've said in the past, to 588 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: clear Ellen's name. 589 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: She's already lost her life. Why is it important to 590 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: you that her death be fully investigated? 591 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 6: It's wrong and for me, I need to be able 592 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 6: to lay my head on my pillow at night and 593 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 6: know that I did everything I needed to do, and 594 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 6: this is very important to me. 595 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 2: Why do you believe, Sandy, that anyone would want to 596 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 2: cover up the true nature of Ellen's murder. 597 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 7: When we were being deposed by the city for the lawsuit, 598 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 7: I had five different attorneys questioning me and insisting you 599 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 7: trying to put words in my mouth and insisting upon 600 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 7: this being a suicide, which it clearly wasn't. I was 601 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 7: just so professionally speaking. I would be so ashamed of 602 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 7: myself if I were them. 603 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: But why? My question is why would anyone do this? 604 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 5: There are two reasons. A the police did allow the investigation. B. 605 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 5: Someone's being protected. I can't think of any other reasons. 606 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 2: We wait and we pray that justice will unfold in 607 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Thank you to all of 608 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: our guests, especially to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, my friends, 609 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 2: Busy Gray Sundell, Goodbye friend.