WEBVTT - I Read Kamala Harris’ Dad’s Book

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<v Speaker 1>All Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to kit Appy here a podcast where I Mia

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<v Speaker 2>Wong have read Kamala Harris's dad. Donald Harris's book. This

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<v Speaker 2>is the podcast that you're listening to now with me

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<v Speaker 2>to experience this actually genuinely fairly interesting work of political

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<v Speaker 2>economy is James Stout.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, man, I'm so excited to know what Donald has

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<v Speaker 3>for us today. Me too.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm you know, I'm I'm of a bunch of minds

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<v Speaker 2>of this book because I think the actual key element

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<v Speaker 2>of this book, which is called Capital Accumulation and Income Distribution,

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<v Speaker 2>is that it is unbelievably technically dense. You know. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna get into the book. First, we sort of

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<v Speaker 2>we should talk a bit about who Donald Harris is.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of the focus around this is Kamala

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<v Speaker 2>Harris is the presumptive Democratic nominees dad, so a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the media coverage around him is around him being

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<v Speaker 2>a Marxist. This is debatable, obviously, is what I like

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<v Speaker 2>conclusion I'm going to come out of this with.

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<v Speaker 3>I am shocked that people in our media today might

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<v Speaker 3>misunderstand basic things about Marxism and who is and he's

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<v Speaker 3>not a Marxist.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think. But so the thing about

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<v Speaker 2>this book, so this book is from nineteen seventy eight,

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<v Speaker 2>which is actually after he had broken up with Kamala's mom,

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<v Speaker 2>and so Kamala doesn't like know him super well.

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<v Speaker 3>Was he like not present in her younger life.

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<v Speaker 2>Kamala's mom and dad divorced when she was like five,

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<v Speaker 2>was like four or five. So this is this is

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<v Speaker 2>written about a decade after that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, much like the New American Communist Party, like a

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<v Speaker 3>lot a lot of divorce guys just love to be communist.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a thing about divorce guys.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh god. Yeah. So you know, one of the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of the thing everyone kind of cites about, like Tom

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<v Speaker 2>Harris's politics, that he was in this sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>Black Studies, like I guess proto Black Studies group that

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<v Speaker 2>produced a bunch of like black panthers, produced a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of very radical people. But you know, the interesting thing

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<v Speaker 2>about Donald Harris is that he is not the Marxist

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<v Speaker 2>that you would expect to see coming out of sort

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<v Speaker 2>of like that Miliu because those people's Marxism, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he is very interested in sort of underdevelopment

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, sort of like imperialism. But he's he's

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<v Speaker 2>not well from one of the sort of like Baoist

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<v Speaker 2>inflected kinds of Marxism, which are the kinds that tended

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<v Speaker 2>to be sort of floating around like that time. He

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<v Speaker 2>in fact, he is a very very rare kind of Marxist,

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<v Speaker 2>which is to say, well, A, he doesn't call himself

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<v Speaker 2>a Marxist. He calls himself a Marxi in the entire time.

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<v Speaker 2>But b yeah, intolerable and we don't understand what this is.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a very famous marx quote where he's complaining

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<v Speaker 2>about I think it was something the German Social Democratic

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<v Speaker 2>Party did or something where he where people are calling

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<v Speaker 2>themselves Marxists, and he goes, and this is what if

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<v Speaker 2>this is what Marxism is, and I am not a Marxist.

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<v Speaker 2>And so for one hundred years since then, one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty years, people have been calling them those Marxians

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<v Speaker 2>instead of Marxists. This is all over that book.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm developing a picture of a kind of guy, Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>panting maat Rich portrait man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So but the interesting part is he's what's known

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<v Speaker 2>as a post Kanesian. And weirdly, dear listeners, you are

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<v Speaker 2>you are some of the only people in this entire country.

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<v Speaker 2>You have a prayer of knowing who these people are,

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<v Speaker 2>because we've actually had a bunch of them on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>If people remember the episodes that I did about inflation

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<v Speaker 2>over the last sort of like year, I guess, like

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<v Speaker 2>two years. I don't know's it's been a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>but the episode's about inflation that we did with with

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<v Speaker 2>the folks over at Strange Matters. Those people are the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the int one of one of the groups

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<v Speaker 2>that are the intellectual heirs to sort of post Kanesianism.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a you know, I guess it's post Kansianism is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of it's I guess it's like the largest of

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<v Speaker 2>what's called the heterodox economics uh schools. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>get more into what it is later because it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just like, you know, so it's post Kanesian after like

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<v Speaker 2>John Vader Kines, it's not really Canes and that's gonna

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<v Speaker 2>become very important as second. But you know, this this

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of an issue because it means that it's

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<v Speaker 2>actually it's really really hard for a normal person to

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<v Speaker 2>figure out what the fuck is going on with this book.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is something that I discovered, you know, partially

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<v Speaker 2>just from reading it, and partially also I mean this like,

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<v Speaker 2>I have a pretty good background to do this, because

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<v Speaker 2>I know a lot of postcinsine economics and I also

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<v Speaker 2>have studied a lot of marks, and you need both

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<v Speaker 2>of those to be able to write about this. However,

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<v Speaker 2>come I discovered two hours before this recording. I discovered

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<v Speaker 2>that the economist had set some hack who they refused

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<v Speaker 2>to name, to write about this book, and this person managed, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>on top of just like straight up, like not literally,

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<v Speaker 2>their explanation of what the book is about is simply wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>In just four paragraphs, they managed to make an error

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<v Speaker 2>so egregious that I if I had turned this shit

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<v Speaker 2>into my professor's in college, you would have failed before it.

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<v Speaker 2>So okay, okay. So one of the things the author

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<v Speaker 2>talks about is this thing called the Cambridge Capital controversy,

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<v Speaker 2>and this author claims that this controversy was fought between

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<v Speaker 2>the ne and post Kansians. Now, this is probably gibberish

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<v Speaker 2>to like ninety nine percent of people listening to this,

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<v Speaker 2>but in terms of heterodox economics, this is the equivalent

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<v Speaker 2>of not knowing who fought in World War Two, Like

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<v Speaker 2>this is the Cambridge Catro controversy. Is it's it's basically

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<v Speaker 2>these single moments in which this kind of like, this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of heterodox economics appears onto the economic scene in

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<v Speaker 2>a way that like they were able to force the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of mainstream neoclassical economists to take to pay attention to.

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<v Speaker 2>And this battle should, like intellectually should have completely destroyed

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<v Speaker 2>all of neoclassical economics. Right, everything you've ever heard about

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<v Speaker 2>how price equal supply and demand like so all those curves,

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<v Speaker 2>all of that is fucking bullshit. All of it was

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<v Speaker 2>destroyed by one single happened about the course of a

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<v Speaker 2>decade between the sort of post Kanesians mostly Sarrappha but

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<v Speaker 2>also Joe and Robinson I think actually started it. We're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna talk about those people more later. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>battle between them and there is specifically the neoclassical economists,

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<v Speaker 2>and by the end of it, the neoclassical economists were

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<v Speaker 2>forced to admit that they couldn't they couldn't figure out

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<v Speaker 2>a way to like measure the value of a bundle

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<v Speaker 2>of like capital goods. So if you have two different machines,

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<v Speaker 2>neoclassical economics cannot tell you the value of machines, and this,

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<v Speaker 2>this completely annihilates neoclassical economics. All of it is fucking

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<v Speaker 2>fake because you know, they need this for the production function.

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<v Speaker 2>Without the production function, like you can't even get to

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<v Speaker 2>supply and demand, right, every literally everything, all of their

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<v Speaker 2>stuff immediately falls apart. I'm not going to like attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to do an explanation of the Cambridge capital controversy what

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<v Speaker 2>was what it was actually about here, because it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit it's something that you can understand, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's a little bit technical and it's hard to explain

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<v Speaker 2>in podcast form if you if you're really curious about this,

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<v Speaker 2>the book Capital as Power. Capital as Power has a

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<v Speaker 2>really great explanation of it in chapter five that's pretty short.

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<v Speaker 2>You can just literally find a PDF of Capital as

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<v Speaker 2>Power by just googling it. But this is the level

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<v Speaker 2>of sort of like confusion we're getting with here. We're

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<v Speaker 2>like the person the economists assigned to write this like

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<v Speaker 2>knows so little about it that and you know the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing about about this, this whole controversy is that

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<v Speaker 2>the Cambridge capital capital controversy is in the book and

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<v Speaker 2>in the book Donald Harris very specifically talks about there's

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<v Speaker 2>an entire chapter of the book that it's just him

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<v Speaker 2>using the products of the Cambridge capital controversy to completely

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<v Speaker 2>destroy new classical economics. This is an entire chapter of

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<v Speaker 2>the book. And this guy got who was about wrong? Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So this is a book that is is very very

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<v Speaker 2>easy to misinterpret and very very easy to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>not like you know, just to sort of like completely

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<v Speaker 2>misunderstand or bounce off of.

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<v Speaker 3>I it was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was hard for me, and like, I'm pretty well

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<v Speaker 2>set up to deal with it. So, Okay, what what

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<v Speaker 2>the fuck is this book about? The very the shortest

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<v Speaker 2>answer I can possibly give is it's an attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>build a sort of mathematical model of how of how

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<v Speaker 2>of of sort of like that measures the growth of

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<v Speaker 2>an economy and can sort of like determine based on

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<v Speaker 2>like different sort of inputs of uh, you know, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get to the or the second and like in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of like inputs of capital and like parts of labor,

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<v Speaker 2>like how you can have an economy that grows stably

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<v Speaker 2>over time. But in order to get into really what

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<v Speaker 2>this is, we need to do something that actually is

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<v Speaker 2>the first part of this book. We need to do

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<v Speaker 2>a brief survey of the last two hundred and thirty

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred and forty years of economics. But before we

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<v Speaker 2>do that, do you know what economics exist to sell you?

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<v Speaker 3>I do. Actually, that is a fantastic transition, mayah. That

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<v Speaker 3>is it goods and services.

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<v Speaker 2>It is in fact goods and services, priceless capital goods.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, and we are back, so okay, And in

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<v Speaker 2>order to understand literally what this fundamental project is, we

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<v Speaker 2>have to talk about sort of the three broad categories

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<v Speaker 2>of of economists. So the first sort of original and

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<v Speaker 2>we're not gonnare there's a couple there's some people before this,

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<v Speaker 2>but like the the in terms of like economists whose

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<v Speaker 2>work is important to now there's three broad categories, and

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna start with the classical economists broadly. There's also

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<v Speaker 2>about three important classical economists. This is This is an argument,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is one of the arguments that Donald Harris

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<v Speaker 2>makes in the opening of this book is about who

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<v Speaker 2>these people are. So his argument is it's Adam Smith, Malthus,

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<v Speaker 2>and Ricardo. We don't care about Mauthis for our purposes.

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<v Speaker 2>He's most well known for being the like the the

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<v Speaker 2>like out of control population growth will kill every one

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<v Speaker 2>on earth. We need to like slow populate. Stuff like

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<v Speaker 2>that's not super relevant for us. Everyone, I think kind

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<v Speaker 2>of has a has a basic familiarity with Adam Smith.

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<v Speaker 2>But for our purposes, the important one is Ricardo, who

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<v Speaker 2>is not very well known at all. Ricardo is sort

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<v Speaker 2>of concerned with basically the distribution of surpluses between the classes.

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<v Speaker 2>So for him, that there's there's three major classes, right,

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<v Speaker 2>there's landloardsers, capitalists, and there's workers. And he's concerned about

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<v Speaker 2>how the sort of the surplus product of a society,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like all of the sort of stuff that's

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<v Speaker 2>producing in an economy that isn't literally directly necessary for

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<v Speaker 2>everyone to survive, how is that sort of surplus like distributed,

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<v Speaker 2>and how does this sort of impact economic growth? The

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<v Speaker 2>post Kanesian tradition that Donald Harris is in is in

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<v Speaker 2>a real sense, there are successors to Ricardo, right, A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of I've mentioned Piero Siraffa, who is like probably

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<v Speaker 2>the central figure of post Kanesian economics. He's a really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting guy. He knows like everyone, like he knew Canes.

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<v Speaker 2>He was weirdly friends with Antonio GRAMPSI the former head

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<v Speaker 2>of the Italian Communist Party, who's enormously influential work was

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<v Speaker 2>like new him. And a lot of what Sarafa's work

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<v Speaker 2>is is kind of like getting Ricardo's economics to like

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<v Speaker 2>work properly and then turning that into sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>new framework for how you model economies. Now, the other

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<v Speaker 2>part of this, you know, so, okay, who isn't isn't

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<v Speaker 2>a classical economist is also a huge source of debate

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<v Speaker 2>because there's a lot of people who throw Marx in

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<v Speaker 2>as part of the classical economists, that's a traditional way

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<v Speaker 2>to view it. Harris doesn't think that he's a classical economist.

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<v Speaker 2>He thinks that he's his own thing. So for our purposes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's and and Harris is also I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I think he considers himself a Marxist even in this period,

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<v Speaker 2>And a lot of this book is an attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of merge Marxian political economy with like the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of neo Ricardi and stuff that's Raffa is doing.

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<v Speaker 3>Does he change later? Do you know? Is Harris one

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<v Speaker 3>of these guys who goes on like intellectual journey and

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<v Speaker 3>becomes oh.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get there, okay, we'll get we'll get to where

0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.760
<v Speaker 2>all this ends up at the end of this episode.

0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.080
<v Speaker 2>But you know, it's interesting because you can actually see

0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:47.920
<v Speaker 2>it kind of happening in the middle of this book

0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:48.880
<v Speaker 2>in ways that we're going to get to.

0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.640
<v Speaker 3>So I love that. I love a book where your

0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:53.080
<v Speaker 3>thickerest of a personal journey.

0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.240
<v Speaker 2>It's also very funny because the economist guy, I was like,

0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.199
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, he's so Marxist. He's concerned with the

0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.760
<v Speaker 2>value for him and like, okay, I to put my

0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Marxist cards on the table. Maybe six people will understand this.

0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.080
<v Speaker 2>But like I was like brought up in terms of

0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.720
<v Speaker 2>learning like Marxist theory, like through the through the value

0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.200
<v Speaker 2>form school. He is not a value form guy. He

0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.680
<v Speaker 2>plays really fast and loose. What value is? Uh? It's

0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.400
<v Speaker 2>it's I was reading this and I was going, oh god,

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.640
<v Speaker 2>oh no, what is this. He's so wrong. He's so

0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:22.880
<v Speaker 2>bafflingly wrong.

0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 3>The What the Economists is subtitled a Combative Marxist Economists

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.280
<v Speaker 3>with White House Influence, which like.

0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Thanks God, yeah, okay, so so the the the basis

0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.720
<v Speaker 2>of Marxist Marxian political economy is the labor theory of value.

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna explain this briefly because it actually winds up

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 2>mattering a lot to this book. So value is the

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.199
<v Speaker 2>product of the labor time socially necessary to produce a commodity. Right,

0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.760
<v Speaker 2>It's like how long does it take like a specific

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.720
<v Speaker 2>place to produce a watch. You know, workers are paid

0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.839
<v Speaker 2>enough to reproduce themselves, so they're paid enough to sort

0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.360
<v Speaker 2>of like eat, sleep and like have kids. There are

0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.679
<v Speaker 2>more workers, but the rest of their labor time is

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.280
<v Speaker 2>stolen by capitalists and is thus unremunerated. This unpaid labor

0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.600
<v Speaker 2>time is called surplus value. And this is what capital

0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.160
<v Speaker 2>is made out. So this is like a very very

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 2>basis of sort of what Marxism is and you know,

0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 2>in in sort of Marxism, and this is sort of

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 2>different than Riccardo, which is like work. Ricardo understands that

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>there are classes and that they are in conflict to

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.520
<v Speaker 2>some extent. But you know, from Marx the central dynamics

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.880
<v Speaker 2>of capitalism is, you know, is the conflict between the

0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.280
<v Speaker 2>bourgeoisie or the capitalists who owned the means of production

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.240
<v Speaker 2>and then you know and buy that ownership, like extract

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 2>surplus value from the proletariat and the proletariat or the

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 2>working class are forced to sell their labor to capitalists,

0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 2>et cetera, et cetera. Something very interesting two ideas run

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 2>into each other very quickly in Harris's work, because you know,

0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.199
<v Speaker 2>so there is a thing called surplus in the tradition

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of sort of Ricardo and in the tradition of like

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Serapha and this of the post Kansians, right, and that

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.559
<v Speaker 2>surplus is very critically not the same same thing as

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Marxian surplus value. So you know what part of part

0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 2>of what's happening here is that Harris is trying to

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.360
<v Speaker 2>square the circle basically between these two approaches to like

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.920
<v Speaker 2>to what surplus is and sort of what the nature

0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.120
<v Speaker 2>of value is. So you know, in the Marxist tradition, right,

0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 2>surplus value is still in labor time, and the value

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>of producer sort of flows through the economy and it's

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.480
<v Speaker 2>what turned you know, like stealing this labor time is

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 2>what turns capital into more capital. Right in the post

0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 2>in post Cantine economics, surplus is you know, so so

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 2>in in sort of like a seraph in work or

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.160
<v Speaker 2>in this book too, right, you have basically a production

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.920
<v Speaker 2>matrix which is like as a matric that models how

0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.400
<v Speaker 2>production works, and it's what it's doing is modeling the

0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.280
<v Speaker 2>entire output of society at one time. And in this model,

0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.120
<v Speaker 2>so they're there's sort of like, you know, there's all

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.400
<v Speaker 2>the commodity and labor inputs that compose the economy and

0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 2>they come back out and there's a certain amount of commodities.

0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>This is the thing we talk about with a card, right,

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 2>There's there's certain amount of commodities you need to produce

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>so that everyone can the entire system can reproduce itself,

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and beyond that is surplus. So what you're dealing with

0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.200
<v Speaker 2>is this weird mixture because Harris is trying to work

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 2>with both of these at the same time. Where Like,

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.240
<v Speaker 2>on the one hand, you have surplus as like like

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.560
<v Speaker 2>stolen value in a form of like stolen labor time,

0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 2>and on the other hand, you have it in this

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:23.960
<v Speaker 2>regarded sense of like there's a bunch of commodities that

0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.800
<v Speaker 2>we've produced that's like access to our like ability to

0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.120
<v Speaker 2>to like our needs to reproduce ourselves. And he's trying

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:36.840
<v Speaker 2>to square these and it doesn't work. It just sort

0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 2>of breaks down.

0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.360
<v Speaker 3>Does he like, does he like actively address this like

0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.360
<v Speaker 3>dual meaning and then explain like.

0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Ye, yeah, well so his basic issue is that so

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the way he does this mostly is by just moving

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.960
<v Speaker 2>back and forth between the two systems and not trying

0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:59.680
<v Speaker 2>to reconcile them. And then the one time he has

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to kind of do it, he has to, oh God,

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.320
<v Speaker 2>don't want to try to explain the transformation problem. He

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>has to do this thing where Okay, so if theoretically,

0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.840
<v Speaker 2>if you want to convert surplus value, like in the

0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.240
<v Speaker 2>Marxist Marxian sense, into this sort of like neo Ricardian thing,

0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.360
<v Speaker 2>you need to turn it into prices. And there's there's

0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 2>a long running controversy in in Marxism over whether or

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.920
<v Speaker 2>not you can actually do that because the math is weird,

0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.480
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't work very well. I'm not gonna he doesn't

0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.280
<v Speaker 2>solve it. He just gives up and says that you

0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.440
<v Speaker 2>can't do it because they're in two separate spheres, which

0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.360
<v Speaker 2>is the most compound answer I've ever seen in my

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 2>entire life.

0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.960
<v Speaker 3>It's I love that.

0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's it's it's wild. But you know, so,

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>so back to the sort of main arc of what

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the fuck is smoke about here, I'm probably probably I problems.

0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 2>We're reaching the promised lamp. We have to do this

0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.960
<v Speaker 2>stuff first. Okay, so those are you know, the two

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 2>kinds of economics that Donald Harris is trying to work

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 2>with are this sort of post Canesian stuff, which is

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.960
<v Speaker 2>derived from like Ricardo and classical economists, and then like

0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Marxian stuff. There's also the third school, which is neoclassical economics,

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.520
<v Speaker 2>which this is all the economics that you've learned in school, right,

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.400
<v Speaker 2>This is supplied demand. This is like your production functions.

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.719
<v Speaker 2>This is your like every time someone starts lecturing you

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.240
<v Speaker 2>about how the economy works. This is all this stuff. Yeah,

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 2>what's very important for our purposes. This is something that

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Harris brings up is the single largest difference between neoclassical

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 2>economics and whatever came before. It isn't that like, I

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know, everything's about marginal utility or whatever the fuck.

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:46.080
<v Speaker 2>It's that. It's that in neoclassical economics there are no classes.

0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 2>They just pretend that classes don't exist.

0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:56.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and in much of American politics, yeah, Germany politics

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 3>sadly well.

0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 2>And this is also why like the American conception of

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.000
<v Speaker 2>class is so nuts, and why everyone's running around in circles,

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 2>trying to measure it by like income levels, because all

0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.679
<v Speaker 2>the economics they use don't have a thing that establishes

0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 2>what class is.

0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.480
<v Speaker 3>And it's one of the jarring differences between the United

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.240
<v Speaker 3>Kingdom and the United States, how like we are hyper

0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:22.400
<v Speaker 3>aware of class and like it's something that like arguably,

0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.960
<v Speaker 3>like Britain is obsessed with to detriment of other Like yes,

0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.199
<v Speaker 3>but and you go to America and fucking like like

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 3>if if you have a job that pays you occasionally,

0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.760
<v Speaker 3>your middle class and then fucking everyone is apparently and

0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.320
<v Speaker 3>like it becomes a meaningless term.

0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 2>I guess, yeah, this is this is very explicitly for

0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.440
<v Speaker 2>political reasons, right Neoclassical economics is developed as an attack

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.399
<v Speaker 2>on Marxism, Like this is this is this is its

0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>actual sort of origin, and it's originators are like very

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.879
<v Speaker 2>explicit about this right now. And this is where we

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 2>get back to Sarrafa, because Saraffa's work effectively is an

0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.479
<v Speaker 2>attack on neoclassical economics, and Sarraffa in ninety nine pages

0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:03.840
<v Speaker 2>literally destroy everything they'd ever produced. But you know, the

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 2>new classical solution to this is basically to get everyone

0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.520
<v Speaker 2>who talked about it fired and this actually worked, like

0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.080
<v Speaker 2>they did, is basically massive social cleansing campaign of like

0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.399
<v Speaker 2>all of the sort of heterodox economists they got they

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.960
<v Speaker 2>got the ball fired and it worked. And Harris actually

0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 2>weirdly was kind of was like one of the last

0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.439
<v Speaker 2>holdouts into the nineties. But he just like retires in

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.480
<v Speaker 2>like the late nineties and that's like basically every all

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 2>of them get rent out. Uh, there's a good we'll

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.840
<v Speaker 2>talk about him later. There's there's another Postcanesian economists named

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Frederick Lee, who my friends estrange matter really like, who's

0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.159
<v Speaker 2>an anarchist who's in this school, and he has like

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.280
<v Speaker 2>an excruciatingly detailed account of all of these economists getting

0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>run out by the new classical people. And so, you know,

0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:50.280
<v Speaker 2>like neoclassical economists like in in some sense they there there.

0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Their strategy is a strategy of capitalism, which is like,

0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.960
<v Speaker 2>obviously we're not right here, but we have money and

0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.600
<v Speaker 2>we have force, so we're going to defeat your ideas

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:03.760
<v Speaker 2>by SI destroying you all rightly actual physical force.

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 3>So incredible, Yeah, the cultural revolution in economics.

0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's interesting because Harris Harris is writing this

0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.760
<v Speaker 2>in seventy eight, and in seventy eight it's still the

0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.959
<v Speaker 2>battle hasn't been settled yet, right, there's still kind of

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.280
<v Speaker 2>like the fight going on between like who is going

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 2>to be like in control of economics. And I mean,

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the answer is to Theokanzian is that

0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the post Kansians lose. But you know that wasn't necessarily

0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:30.359
<v Speaker 2>the case of this time. There's also a really weird

0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 2>artifact of this that I want to talk about a

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.200
<v Speaker 2>little bit, which is that, like, you know, so remember

0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of this, I said that that stupid

0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.760
<v Speaker 2>economist person has said that it was neo Kandians versus

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 2>post Kansians. So those two groups are not the same thing.

0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.360
<v Speaker 2>The post Kandians are the people who we've been talking

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.080
<v Speaker 2>about this whole time, right like they're they're like they're

0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:51.359
<v Speaker 2>basically neo Ricardans right there. They're like based on classical economics.

0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.360
<v Speaker 2>The neo Kansians are just regular Kansians basically, but they

0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.800
<v Speaker 2>had to change the math to be shittier and make

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.040
<v Speaker 2>themselves more right wing to like survive.

0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.440
<v Speaker 3>To re explained like John Maynard Keynes and supply side economics.

0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you if you want to Yeah, if you

0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:07.639
<v Speaker 2>want to give, I mean, go ahead.

0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.800
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, I'm fucking I am a historian, but

0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.080
<v Speaker 3>it's a it differs from classical economics. I guess in

0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.080
<v Speaker 3>the idea that the state can make interventions am Ukutumbi,

0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.800
<v Speaker 3>after as I fucked up, the state interventions can beneficial

0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.639
<v Speaker 3>for the economy. And it emerges like in the I

0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.280
<v Speaker 3>guess post Great Depression, Like I guess maybe from the

0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 3>from like you know, the New Deal and these these,

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.920
<v Speaker 3>and then post World War two, right, like it's very

0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.159
<v Speaker 3>influential in the kind of build up after World War Two.

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 3>The idea that like the state shouldn't necessarily be like

0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.960
<v Speaker 3>what's happening Adam hand, the invisible hand, the fucking invisible

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.159
<v Speaker 3>hand maybe isn't killing it and we needn't said the

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:44.840
<v Speaker 3>hand of the state.

0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I mean, well, you know, it's worth mentioning

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:49.840
<v Speaker 2>that like in Adam Smith, the hand of the state

0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:55.639
<v Speaker 2>is explicitly God, sorry, explicitly God. Unfortunately, unfortunately, there was

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:57.719
<v Speaker 2>no God to bail out the markets of the nineteen twenties,

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.720
<v Speaker 2>so kids was like shit, yeah, and I'm mean, you know,

0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:02.760
<v Speaker 2>his is like in sort of like more detail, like

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 2>his thing basically is about like he's he's obsessed with

0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.680
<v Speaker 2>sort of like like like basically cyclically counteracting crises by

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 2>using states of betting to like, you know, like his

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.639
<v Speaker 2>things basically is that, like capital will misallocate resources, you

0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.160
<v Speaker 2>have to use the state to like kick the bastards

0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.159
<v Speaker 2>into line, like the stable economy. And the problem is

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.320
<v Speaker 2>that by by the late seventies, the Kansians are in

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.919
<v Speaker 2>crisis because in original like Kansian theory, it wasn't supposed

0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 2>to be possible for there to be both rising unemployment

0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.560
<v Speaker 2>and rising inflation, but that was like happening over the

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:36.800
<v Speaker 2>entire world, and so they got kind of annihilated. And

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 2>this is the thing that like the neoliberals used to

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:42.160
<v Speaker 2>like take power. And it's interesting because the post Kansians

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.000
<v Speaker 2>like they use and you know, and like the beginning

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of this book is a bit of of like Kansian stuff.

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.360
<v Speaker 2>But then he just like you know, they go off

0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.920
<v Speaker 2>and do other more interesting things. But it's very funny

0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 2>because because this is still seventy eight, he Harris calls

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.439
<v Speaker 2>himself a neo Kansian, and he called all of his

0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.879
<v Speaker 2>collaborators Neokansians because the real Neo Kansians hadn't like developed yet.

0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh so he's just trying to he's just trying to

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.040
<v Speaker 3>fucking claim it, like he's trying to get his like

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:12.280
<v Speaker 3>stick in the ground. First.

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, but I mean that's the thing, like at

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.320
<v Speaker 2>that point they were the neo like the there. There

0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:19.920
<v Speaker 2>wasn't like there. Their school had had as good a

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>claim to it as anyone. It's just that they got

0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.840
<v Speaker 2>kicked out later by the sort of board Like, yeah,

0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.920
<v Speaker 2>makes sense, ones, Yeah, it's also a thing. It's also

0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:29.720
<v Speaker 2>important about this, for reasons we're gonna get to in

0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.560
<v Speaker 2>a second, is that the post Kansian tradition also has

0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of very eclectic Marxists in it. We're gonna

0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>get the Joe and Robinson who's a very close collaborator

0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.800
<v Speaker 2>of a very good Marxis philosopher. She's actually the person

0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.359
<v Speaker 2>who like kicks off the Cambridge Captural capital controversy, and

0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.119
<v Speaker 2>she's she's a very kind of esoteric Marxist kind of

0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>in a similar way to uh uh, to what Donald

0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Harris is. But you know, you know what Marxism in

0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 2>theory isn't supposed to support.

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 3>Would that be the sale of goods? And services.

0:23:57.880 --> 0:23:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeahs product and services that support this podcast.

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:13.200
<v Speaker 3>Distributing them using the price mechanism.

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:17.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're back. So yeah, there's there. There's also you know,

0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 2>there's got a Galecki who's very important to this too,

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.440
<v Speaker 2>so that there are Marxists kind of on the ground

0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of this, and they're they're trying to sort of their

0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 2>their goal is to try to like explain an economy

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:30.520
<v Speaker 2>that has monopolies in it, because Marxist theory sort of

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>like assumed that there weren't and that there was like

0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 2>actual competition in markets and so part of what but

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.200
<v Speaker 2>this this comes to the sort of fundamental project of

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:41.400
<v Speaker 2>of what this book is about, which is that it's

0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>it's it's about developing a sort of growth model that

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:46.639
<v Speaker 2>you can sort of you know, that that that that

0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.200
<v Speaker 2>accounts that that can be modified to account for all

0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:51.120
<v Speaker 2>of these things. So the initial thing that they're trying

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>to produce is is like a model of what they

0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.480
<v Speaker 2>call a Golden Age, which is a thing that's from

0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.959
<v Speaker 2>Joe and Robinson. Yeah, that's basically like it's the goal name,

0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.359
<v Speaker 2>which is a theoretical like economic configuration. You have you

0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:05.960
<v Speaker 2>have full employment, you have constant, stable economic growth and

0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:12.080
<v Speaker 2>the system can reproduce itself. And you know, I'm going

0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.479
<v Speaker 2>to read a passage from this book so you can understand.

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Partially so you can because it's about this, right, and

0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:19.600
<v Speaker 2>partially so you can understand. Like this isn't even a

0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 2>particularly technical paragraph.

0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 3>You're talking about hit.

0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:28.199
<v Speaker 2>Me steady state. Yeah, Golden Age is also kind of

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.680
<v Speaker 2>similar thing to a concept called steady state economies he's

0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>writing about. A particular steady state is based on a

0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:38.480
<v Speaker 2>given set of conditions and interrelations among them, a given

0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:41.720
<v Speaker 2>rate of accumulation of capital, given rates of savings from

0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:44.360
<v Speaker 2>the stream of net income, a given state of technological

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:47.639
<v Speaker 2>knowledge or rate of technological innovation, a given rate of

0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:50.639
<v Speaker 2>increase of the labor force, and a given set of expectations.

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:54.360
<v Speaker 2>To ask whether such a situation exists is to ask

0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 2>whether the conditions which define it are mutually compatible or

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 2>self consistent. So this, this is basically what he's doing, right,

0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:05.240
<v Speaker 2>is you can you can build these like models of

0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.480
<v Speaker 2>like these sort of Kanzian models that like and I

0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:11.720
<v Speaker 2>started post Kansian models that you know, if you if you,

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:13.359
<v Speaker 2>if you set up all the elements right, you can

0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:17.040
<v Speaker 2>theoretically generate stable growth. But then you know, obviously his

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:20.520
<v Speaker 2>thing is like this doesn't work, right, Like, no, no,

0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:22.840
<v Speaker 2>no economy will ever generate this because there's there's only

0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.679
<v Speaker 2>really like it's extremely hard to actually get you know,

0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:31.280
<v Speaker 2>your sort of like input levels and your technological development

0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:33.439
<v Speaker 2>whatever the fuck like at the same rate to do this.

0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:37.160
<v Speaker 2>But he's he's using this as basically the model for

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:39.439
<v Speaker 2>as like as like a sort of toy model that

0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:41.920
<v Speaker 2>you can then sort of warp to fit the rest

0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>of the sort of the rest of the capitalist economy.

0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:47.800
<v Speaker 2>But in order to do this, he has to generate

0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 2>a crisis theory. And this is where he's just like

0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:51.919
<v Speaker 2>suddenly all the marks comes back in and he's like,

0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:53.600
<v Speaker 2>so his he's the product he's trying to do is

0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.520
<v Speaker 2>he's trying to use a post Kanzian model of how

0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:58.639
<v Speaker 2>economic growth works and then and then combine that with

0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:04.479
<v Speaker 2>Marxist crisis theory to produce basically a model of you know,

0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:08.280
<v Speaker 2>what kinds of conditions in an economy will cause like

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.840
<v Speaker 2>crisis states. Now, ooka, the every thing is very weird

0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:15.679
<v Speaker 2>about this, right, It's like he doesn't do normal Like

0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:18.440
<v Speaker 2>there's like an entire school of Marxist crisis theory, and

0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:22.040
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't do it. He instead like rewrites a bunch

0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:24.760
<v Speaker 2>of Marxist equations and then comes up with his own

0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.400
<v Speaker 2>like version of crisis theory of like different kinds of crises.

0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:33.000
<v Speaker 2>And I like, what, it's so weird, it's so bad.

0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Like maybe he wanted to make him make his mock

0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:36.639
<v Speaker 3>you know.

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess it's weird because it's like this whole

0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:41.399
<v Speaker 2>thing is interesting, but it's like I don't think anyone

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:42.760
<v Speaker 2>ever followed up on it really.

0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Right, It's just like this dead end of academic theory.

0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I think it's also you know, I mean

0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:53.120
<v Speaker 2>it's partially like a rudnut travel thing. It's partially because

0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:56.440
<v Speaker 2>as as the post Kanesians went on, they got less

0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:58.919
<v Speaker 2>and less Marxists. So like a lot of the original

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 2>people are like Seraphus on Marxist, but like a lot

0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:02.720
<v Speaker 2>of the original like Joan Robinson is definitely a Marxist,

0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:04.359
<v Speaker 2>but they get like less and less over time, and

0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:06.320
<v Speaker 2>so there's less interest in kind of like folding in

0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:07.199
<v Speaker 2>Marxism to it.

0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so he's lose interest in that.

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But this is where we get to the final question,

0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:14.600
<v Speaker 2>like is he a Marxist and My answer is I

0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:17.040
<v Speaker 2>don't even in even in sixty eight and seventy eight,

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:19.199
<v Speaker 2>which is pretty early, I don't think he's a Marxist.

0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:20.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he's a Marxist in this book. I

0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:23.360
<v Speaker 2>think he's using Marxist theory, but I don't think he's

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.160
<v Speaker 2>actually a Marxist like politically. And the reason I don't

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 2>think this is because, you know, so we talk about

0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:32.280
<v Speaker 2>surplus value, right, So surplus value is supposed to be

0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>this value it's extracted, but it's the magnitude of it.

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 2>One of the things, like how much value you extract,

0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:38.880
<v Speaker 2>like how many hours of the day you can steal

0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.520
<v Speaker 2>from a worker, depends on how many hours of the

0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>day you'd need to pay them for in order for

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:44.280
<v Speaker 2>them to survive.

0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:44.800
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:48.360
<v Speaker 2>And one of the crucial things about this is that

0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>that Marx is very explicit about this, that rate of

0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:52.959
<v Speaker 2>like how much you need to pay them to survive

0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.239
<v Speaker 2>is determined by social struggle, right, because like you know

0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:59.120
<v Speaker 2>what what a worker quote unquote needs to survive in

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:01.880
<v Speaker 2>like a different places in context is different, and you

0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:04.600
<v Speaker 2>can fight in order for that rate to be higher.

0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:09.880
<v Speaker 2>And this is like an incredibly basic part of Marxism right,

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 2>it's the part of Marxism where the economy is also determed,

0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.160
<v Speaker 2>like the function of the capitalist economy is produced by

0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 2>class struggle. This is like, this is like this is

0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:22.960
<v Speaker 2>even one. This is Marxism zero zero zero like this

0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>this is this is the shit they hand you on

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:27.640
<v Speaker 2>the flo on like your fucking tour of Marxism school

0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:29.320
<v Speaker 2>before you holding classes.

0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:31.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so when you get that very you know, there's

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 3>very short introductions you can get where it's like like

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:38.320
<v Speaker 3>a tiny little booklet that explains so like the sene

0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 3>Quan on the little elements of things.

0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Harris writes pages and pages and pages of

0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:47.680
<v Speaker 2>stuff about like about about like the rate of surplus

0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:51.200
<v Speaker 2>value extraction, and do you know how many times he

0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:56.040
<v Speaker 2>mentions class fucking once in like and it's it's like

0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:58.440
<v Speaker 2>the thirty eight thing he mentions after like the technical

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:01.680
<v Speaker 2>compensation of capital and like it's some other crisis like

0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:04.520
<v Speaker 2>this all of this ship and he just doesn't mention it.

0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>And this is this is the thing that like fundamentally

0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:14.520
<v Speaker 2>has convinced me that what what he's doing isn't substantively Marxism.

0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 2>He's using the tools of merchant political economy but he's

0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 2>he's he's he's viewing capitalism as purely a sort of

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.720
<v Speaker 2>like top down thing, right as and not something that's

0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>actually like you know, like he acknowledges there are classes,

0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 2>but he doesn't see them as actors at all.

0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:36.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so, like the struggle between the classes is is

0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 3>And it's.

0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:39.360
<v Speaker 2>Funny because he has this thing that he calls the

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:42.000
<v Speaker 2>rate of exploitation, right, which is this calculation of sort

0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 2>of surplus value extraction. But he's like, well, obviously because

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 2>the rate is going to change over time due to

0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 2>the condition to struggle. But he's like an oscar, I'm

0:30:48.080 --> 0:30:52.800
<v Speaker 2>just putting his one number. Like it's just like this, right, Yeah,

0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:55.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't kind of interpin it. I'm too lazy to

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 2>figure that out. And I'm like, what what are you doing?

0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Like you this is this is the basis of Marxism.

0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean maybe he was just an economics guy,

0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:04.040
<v Speaker 3>but even still, no.

0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is this is This is the thing that

0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I've been sort of realizing because one of the issues

0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:12.840
<v Speaker 2>with Sarafa is that, you know, Sarafa is a genius economist, right,

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>he is genuinely, unbelievably brilliant, but he's also a pure economist.

0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Like here's here is how the start of his most

0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:23.600
<v Speaker 2>influential book, Production of Commodities and Means of Commodities starts.

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Let us consider an extremely simple society which produces just

0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:32.120
<v Speaker 2>enough to maintain itself. Commodities are produced by separate industries

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.840
<v Speaker 2>and are exchanged for one another, et cetera. Cut So, okay,

0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.560
<v Speaker 2>what is he he? He he just has like created

0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:41.680
<v Speaker 2>a mental model. And this is the basis of like

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 2>of his major economic theories. Him just creating a mental

0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:49.160
<v Speaker 2>model where somehow, out of nowhere has appeared a simple

0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 2>society that produces like one commodity, which is like just

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:56.440
<v Speaker 2>enough commodities, separduties. And you know, if you think about

0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>sort of like Marx, right, Marx is also a sociologist. Right.

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 2>He cares about you know, like like the actual point

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:03.880
<v Speaker 2>of production.

0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:06.520
<v Speaker 2>He cares about the production process. He cares about the

0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:08.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of like like that there are He cares that

0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:11.760
<v Speaker 2>there are workers that are doing the production. He cares

0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:15.080
<v Speaker 2>about the sort of historical conditions that created you know,

0:32:15.120 --> 0:32:17.880
<v Speaker 2>these these things. Don't like as Kamala Harris's mom, this

0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:20.240
<v Speaker 2>is actually very important. The Kamala Harris, you didn't just

0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:21.760
<v Speaker 2>follow out of the coconut tree. You exist in the

0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:24.640
<v Speaker 2>context of all that came before you. That's Kamala Harris's mom,

0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:27.640
<v Speaker 2>who is like, I think a better Marxist than Donel

0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Harris's and Harris will occasionally, like Donald Harris WI occasionally

0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:32.520
<v Speaker 2>gesture to this one. He'd be like, well, yeah, obviously

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:34.920
<v Speaker 2>this is all determined by historical conditions. And then he

0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:36.920
<v Speaker 2>just has no interest in ever pursuing any of that.

0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 2>He's just like, yeah, this is we left a later

0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>book that he never wrote. And what you get to

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:43.160
<v Speaker 2>is is this and this is like a real issue

0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:45.600
<v Speaker 2>with sort of post Kansianism is that it doesn't have

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.480
<v Speaker 2>like Marxism, at least in theory, has politics embedded into it.

0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Post Kannsianism kind of doesn't.

0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:53.920
<v Speaker 3>It's just like I have a.

0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Lot of friends who I like, I deeply care about

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:58.600
<v Speaker 2>who are post Kansian's right, they are political, like you know,

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.960
<v Speaker 2>they're they're leftist because they're right, Like it's it's not

0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:04.120
<v Speaker 2>something as an automatic generation of your theory, and you

0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:06.200
<v Speaker 2>know you can kind of write it that way, right,

0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Like this is the thing about Frederick Lee, who's the

0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:09.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of the guy. A lot of my like a

0:33:09.920 --> 0:33:12.120
<v Speaker 2>lot of the Traine writers, people sort of like learn

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.680
<v Speaker 2>economics from like I mean indirectly, but like through his book.

0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>But you know, Lee Lee is a committed anarchist and

0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:18.480
<v Speaker 2>that shows up at his work. But he has to

0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>like add that in pure like pure sir rafa. By itself,

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you could theoretically like run any form of government you

0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:29.320
<v Speaker 2>want with it. Right. And I think I've been vindicated

0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:32.120
<v Speaker 2>in this whole process because Donald Harris writes a couple

0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:34.840
<v Speaker 2>more books on one of which is a book that

0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:36.880
<v Speaker 2>is like commissioned by the Jamaican government.

0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Okay, he's Jamaican descent or he was born himself directly

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:44.360
<v Speaker 3>in Jamaica, you.

0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Know, Like he's just like he's he's Jamaica and he

0:33:45.920 --> 0:33:50.040
<v Speaker 2>lives in Jamaica. Okay, I think I think he currently

0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:50.640
<v Speaker 2>lives in Jamaica.

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:52.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure this came to the US for his

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:55.320
<v Speaker 3>graduate like for his academic Yeah.

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:56.680
<v Speaker 2>One, one he lived in the US for a long

0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:58.320
<v Speaker 2>time because he's at Stanford, but then he kind of

0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:02.200
<v Speaker 2>like left and one I think back at Jamaica. I'm

0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:05.240
<v Speaker 2>going to read. So he wrote a book called a Growth.

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:07.760
<v Speaker 2>This is in twenty eleven a growth inducement strategy for

0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Jamaica and the shortened medium term. I'm going to read

0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:15.680
<v Speaker 2>you the bullet points under a section called guiding Principles. Okay,

0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:21.120
<v Speaker 2>unleash entrepreneurial dynamism by unlocking latent wealth, tied up and

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:25.359
<v Speaker 2>idle assets. Infrastructure investments is catalysm for job creation through

0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.799
<v Speaker 2>strengthening resiliency of the built in natural environments. Build an

0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:33.640
<v Speaker 2>innovative and competitive modern economy of big and small firms

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:38.239
<v Speaker 2>by strengthening business networks and removing supply side constraints. Modernize

0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:42.320
<v Speaker 2>and improve the efficiency of government. Social inclusion through community renewal,

0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:45.840
<v Speaker 2>expand as south agency in equity, and proactive partnership between

0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.759
<v Speaker 2>government and private sector. Also a giant thing in this

0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:53.480
<v Speaker 2>about crime. So what has happened is that these two

0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>people have circled back around and they now have the

0:34:56.600 --> 0:35:03.560
<v Speaker 2>same politics, which is like tough on crime, austerity, uh.

0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:06.080
<v Speaker 3>Public private partnership, fucking infrastructure spending.

0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Yea, yeah, they circled back around. It's funny because the

0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 2>person writing the economists was like, oh, yeah, they actually

0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:14.680
<v Speaker 2>have circled back around because they're both They're both concerned

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.480
<v Speaker 2>about wealth inequality. And this book is not concerned about

0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:19.520
<v Speaker 2>wealth inequality at all, Like that's not that's not what

0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:23.319
<v Speaker 2>it's about. It's about like capital accumulation, and you know,

0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.400
<v Speaker 2>it's sort of about distribution of surplus, but it's it

0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:29.440
<v Speaker 2>doesn't it's concerned with a distribution of surplus. Is that

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:34.640
<v Speaker 2>seraphan economics like doesn't have a fixed race like way

0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:36.400
<v Speaker 2>for it to be distributed. It can be distributed in

0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:39.279
<v Speaker 2>an enormous number of ways. And the trick is finding

0:35:39.320 --> 0:35:40.719
<v Speaker 2>out how it's actually done.

0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:44.640
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, there's.

0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:45.439
<v Speaker 2>A point in here. There's a point in this book

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:47.799
<v Speaker 2>too that like is the thing that's like really first

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.640
<v Speaker 2>struck me about it where he's talking about how he's

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:52.840
<v Speaker 2>talking about surplus value and he's talking about how this

0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.400
<v Speaker 2>is an objective measure of exploitation. But then he goes

0:35:56.520 --> 0:36:00.640
<v Speaker 2>and he says, contrary to vulgar reading, is this does

0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 2>not actually indicate who deserves Like it's not it's not

0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:08.960
<v Speaker 2>a moral argument about who should have the value that's

0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:13.960
<v Speaker 2>been stolen. And this this right here, this, this is

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:15.840
<v Speaker 2>the road. This is the road that is going to

0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:18.960
<v Speaker 2>lead this man from a kind of interesting book about

0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:22.000
<v Speaker 2>like the dynamics of of of economic growth and like

0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:24.319
<v Speaker 2>building economic models and like using marks in theory does

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:27.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of make it work to straight up I writing

0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:29.800
<v Speaker 2>investment documents for the Jamaican government.

0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:34.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Like he seems like it's very like in a way, like,

0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, there are looks like Admitler band stabbers and

0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:39.319
<v Speaker 3>Marxist right, but it reminds me a lot of like

0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:41.799
<v Speaker 3>the New Labor thing in the UK, you know, which

0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 3>grew out of a party which genuinely had a commitment

0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:48.080
<v Speaker 3>to socialism and became like, yeah, this sort of very

0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:52.680
<v Speaker 3>neoliberal like like sort of really like peak neoliberal kind

0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:56.320
<v Speaker 3>of Yeah. That there with some Keynesian influence, I guess,

0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:59.640
<v Speaker 3>but certainly nothing that one would call combius or even

0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:01.720
<v Speaker 3>really so list Yeah.

0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I don't know. It's it's sad because it's

0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:06.799
<v Speaker 2>like because the interesting thing about.

0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:09.879
<v Speaker 3>That was twenty twelve, he wrote the growth inducement strategy.

0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:13.800
<v Speaker 3>Fuck me, okay's in the game, Like yeah.

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:15.359
<v Speaker 2>But he's still the game in the sense that he's

0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:21.600
<v Speaker 2>doing like this is you know, reading that, it very

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:23.800
<v Speaker 2>much felt like I was reading like a modern Chinese

0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:28.080
<v Speaker 2>five year plan, except it was like less weird slogans.

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean it reads like a like a fucking

0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:34.719
<v Speaker 3>like a new labor policy document, like a think tank.

0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.399
<v Speaker 3>It's a lot of like a analyst guy, think tank

0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:42.360
<v Speaker 3>guy kind of talk right, like which was extremely like

0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:44.520
<v Speaker 3>it looks like he left stand for in the late nineties,

0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:47.719
<v Speaker 3>which is when this ship was fucking everywhere, right, Like

0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:52.319
<v Speaker 3>what is he called Joseph Stiglitz? Is that right? And

0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:56.480
<v Speaker 3>like yeah, yeah, yeah, like yeah, this was the economic

0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:58.960
<v Speaker 3>fucking theory of the day. You know, this was very

0:37:59.000 --> 0:38:03.319
<v Speaker 3>popular then. But it's absolutely just like this. This is

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 3>not like black panther, black panther inflected Marxism. This is

0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:10.640
<v Speaker 3>not what is characteristized by the economists here.

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, this is this is this is something genuinely

0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:18.439
<v Speaker 2>very sad because it doesn't have to go that. We

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:20.759
<v Speaker 2>know that it's possible to like do this kind of

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:23.279
<v Speaker 2>economics not be like this because Frederick Lee was an

0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:26.439
<v Speaker 2>IWW member until the day he died. Like he's he's

0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:28.600
<v Speaker 2>like out there at Occupy given like like in the

0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:30.560
<v Speaker 2>first days of all like not like he's out there,

0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:32.600
<v Speaker 2>like there are videos of him giving speeches to crowds

0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:35.480
<v Speaker 2>that occupy right, Like, you don't have to do this,

0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:40.400
<v Speaker 2>but he did. And this is also, like, you know,

0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:42.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that this kind of political trajectory is kind

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.839
<v Speaker 2>of also you can see in it like how his child,

0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:47.919
<v Speaker 2>even though he wasn't in her life, Munch is going

0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:50.160
<v Speaker 2>to end up as the person she is. And I

0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:52.600
<v Speaker 2>think that's my that's my final conclusion from this is

0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 2>he's not a Marxist and him and his childer lives.

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:00.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the thing's a ten year as to a motherfucker.

0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:03.759
<v Speaker 3>They you start to hang out with a bunch of

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:05.319
<v Speaker 3>other rich people who have ten and you'd be in

0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:08.520
<v Speaker 3>too identify with him and you know, stripped you away

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:11.040
<v Speaker 3>from who you Yeah.

0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:13.200
<v Speaker 2>So this this has been It could happen here. Don't

0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:16.760
<v Speaker 2>become a daughter and capitalist bastard and your old.

0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:20.160
<v Speaker 3>Age, yeah or your young age.

0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it could happen here. As a production of cool

0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 1>Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.359
<v Speaker 1>our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out

0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:37.319
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0:39:44.120 --> 0:39:44.680
<v Speaker 1>for listening,