Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, and
Speaker 1: Chuck's here too, Jerry's here too, Dave's not. That's okay
Speaker 1: because Jerry's here covering for him. And this is stuff
Speaker 1: you should know, short stuff.
Speaker 2: That's right. And we're going to issue a trigger warning
Speaker 2: on this one. You see, they're in the title the
Speaker 2: words latrine disaster. So I don't think we need to
Speaker 2: overexplain what's coming.
Speaker 1: No, if you're easily grossed out, then be careful with this.
Speaker 1: When I was researching and writing this one, I noticed
Speaker 1: that my stomach was actually upset, so it really places. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm not easily I have a fairly iron stomach
Speaker 1: when it comes to stuff, and this one got me
Speaker 1: a little bit. So. But let's start at the start.
Speaker 1: We're going to go all the way back to eleven
Speaker 1: eighty four CE, nearly a thousand years ago, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna go to is it Thuringia.
Speaker 2: I guess I'd never heard of that word, but that's
Speaker 2: probably right.
Speaker 1: So it's a state that's still around in Germany, almost
Speaker 1: smack dab in the center of modern day Germany, and
Speaker 1: in THURINGI. In eleven eighty four there was a dispute.
Speaker 1: The reason for the dispute is lost to history, but
Speaker 1: we know that it was between Ludwig II, who was
Speaker 1: Landgrave aka Prince of Thuringia, so he's a very powerful
Speaker 1: person in the region and the other guy, the other
Speaker 1: disputant was Conrad of Vittelsbach, who was at the time
Speaker 1: the arch Bishop of Mainz, who was also a very
Speaker 1: powerful person in the reason region.
Speaker 2: That's right, And like you said, we don't know exactly why,
Speaker 2: and frankly, it doesn't matter as far as this story goes.
Speaker 2: What matters is during this time, this is the High
Speaker 2: Middle Ages, that was the King of Germany, Einrich the
Speaker 2: what is that sixth He would eventually become the Holy
Speaker 2: Roman Emperor. He knew this was coming, so he was
Speaker 2: on a sort of campaign to lobby different rulers in
Speaker 2: various lands to say, hey, let's change the line of
Speaker 2: succession for the whole Roman emperor to where bloodline is
Speaker 2: the key instead of just being crowned by the pope
Speaker 2: because I'm in that bloodline. And so he was trying
Speaker 2: to just get people on board with his plan as
Speaker 2: kind of the backdrop there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that would have taken a huge amount of
Speaker 1: power from the pope, so it was a pretty big deal,
Speaker 1: and surprisingly he was fairly successful at raising support from
Speaker 1: it around the kingdom. But there was some holdouts still
Speaker 1: and a lot of them were concentrated in the Thuringia area.
Speaker 1: So when he heard about this dispute between Ludwig and Conrad,
Speaker 1: he saw an opportunity to basically show up and act
Speaker 1: fairly kingly and mediate and hopefully resolve the dispute. So
Speaker 1: he would be killing two birds with one stone by
Speaker 1: showing up in the town of Erfurt, which is the
Speaker 1: capital of Thuringia, which he did in July of eleven
Speaker 1: eighty four, and he convened what's called a hoffpug. I'm
Speaker 1: just killing it with the German pronunciations today. If I
Speaker 1: do say so myself, I.
Speaker 2: May just go tab a nap. You're doing so great, thanks.
Speaker 2: So a hoftag is just like an assembly, like an
Speaker 2: informal assembly, not a formal meeting. And there were a
Speaker 2: lot of the local rulers. Some of them came because
Speaker 2: they were told to, as you know, because of this dispute.
Speaker 2: Some were just like, hey, the King's going to be there,
Speaker 2: maybe I can get some FaceTime, which is exactly what
Speaker 2: he wanted, and it was held very Keighley.
Speaker 1: Sure it works.
Speaker 2: Here's another word, I just can't find it again morning recording. Importantly,
Speaker 2: sure it was held at Petersburg Citadel, which was a
Speaker 2: fortress there in Airfort, still there today. It was about
Speaker 2: fifteen years old at that time. And even more key
Speaker 2: to this is the latrine layout. And maybe we'll take
Speaker 2: a little break and talk about that layout right after this.
Speaker 1: So, Chuck, now's the point where we talk about medieval
Speaker 1: latrine design, which I know way more about today than
Speaker 1: I did just a couple of days ago.
Speaker 2: Good band name, yeah, I mean it's actually a terrible
Speaker 2: band name, but a band.
Speaker 1: Name, right, a band name well put yeah. So around
Speaker 1: during the medieval era, especially this time in the High
Speaker 1: Middle Ages, which is what we're talking about today, there
Speaker 1: are a bunch of different latrine designs, and probably some
Speaker 1: of the fanciest were latrines where the actual restroom where
Speaker 1: you relieved yourself was essentially a little alcove just off
Speaker 1: of like a hallway or just very importantly off of
Speaker 1: the banquet room, because it was considered rude at the time,
Speaker 1: at least in parts of Germany. To excuse yourself from
Speaker 1: the table during a dinner. The problem was these dinners
Speaker 1: were really, really long, and so the solution was to
Speaker 1: just put the latrines right by the table so that
Speaker 1: you can continue on with your conversation while you were
Speaker 1: relieving yourself in this doorless restroom. That was the norm,
Speaker 1: not excusing yourself from the table and going to use
Speaker 1: a bathroom way far away from the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The toilet seats is sort of what you
Speaker 2: might imagine from a latrine. It was wooden, there was
Speaker 2: a hole cut in the center. They did have a
Speaker 2: masonry basin that would direct the stuff downward. And you know,
Speaker 2: they would wipe their butts with hay or grass or
Speaker 2: moss or something like that. It must be nice, it
Speaker 2: must be okay, like a nice green moss.
Speaker 1: A big clump of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But suffice to say, these rooms were disgusting and smelly.
Speaker 2: The ammonia could get so bad. Sometimes they would hang
Speaker 2: their clothes near there because they thought they may be
Speaker 2: right about this, that it could ammonia could kill mite.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the smell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So hang your clothes up near there. And what
Speaker 2: would happen if you look at the outside of a
Speaker 2: castle a lot of times these restrooms were projected outward
Speaker 2: from the wall itself a little bit. There was a
Speaker 2: hole in the bottom, and the waste just dropped out
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Just trickle down the sides of the castle, the walls
Speaker 1: of it. And I guess it depends on how far
Speaker 1: the alcove was projected off of the castle walls. But
Speaker 1: I would guess without these tubes that later evolved to
Speaker 1: kind of deposit it more cleanly towards the ground, especially
Speaker 1: in a wind, that waste would just kind of trickle
Speaker 1: down the castle walls, I guess, is what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would go maybe just be washed away
Speaker 2: to whatever water is nearby. If you were unlucky, you
Speaker 2: might have a moat full of that. You did mention tubes. Eventually,
Speaker 2: in places like France they would actually have like plumbing
Speaker 2: pie on the outside of the walls to make it
Speaker 2: just a little neater. But then they found out, hey,
Speaker 2: people can climb up these pipes to gain access to
Speaker 2: the castle, so those aren't good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. In twelve oh three there was a siege of
Speaker 1: Chateau Gallard and the invaders actually climbed up the sewage
Speaker 1: pipes into the castle to gain access. Do you know
Speaker 1: how badly you want to get into a place to
Speaker 1: climb up a medieval waste pipe through the latrine, All the.
Speaker 2: Waist is at least the inside of the pipe.
Speaker 1: Right, I think that you had to climb up the
Speaker 1: inside of the pipe to get into the castle.
Speaker 2: Oh. I thought that. I pictured it as like a
Speaker 2: pipe running down the outside of the castle, that they
Speaker 2: would just climb up.
Speaker 1: Yes, but eventually all you're doing is hanging out on
Speaker 1: the outside wall of the castle.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hadn't actually considered your your interpretation, and it's possible,
Speaker 1: that's right. My mind just immediately went to the idea
Speaker 1: that they had to tunnel up through the inside of
Speaker 1: the pipe.
Speaker 2: Oh, like Andy defrayin and I'll shankredption.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is probably I'm sure Stephen King was
Speaker 1: inspired by the Chateau Gillard story.
Speaker 2: That's right, all right, So none of that really matters,
Speaker 2: because all that matters is that's how it worked in
Speaker 2: some places. But in this particular Petersburg Citadel, it didn't
Speaker 2: work like that at all. It worked like this as
Speaker 2: there was a latrine and you did your poopoo and
Speaker 2: your peepee, and it just went right under the floor
Speaker 2: into a disgusting cesspool that would maybe be cleaned out
Speaker 2: once a year by some very unfortunate servants.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can you imagine, like you'd have to get in
Speaker 1: there with buckets and rakes and have to clean it
Speaker 1: out because of this kind of cesspool that would be
Speaker 1: like just a pit in the basement. They usually had
Speaker 1: some like slits in the top between you know, the
Speaker 1: foundation of the or in the foundation of the castle,
Speaker 1: so that they could only get so full before they
Speaker 1: kind of overflowed. But that means that there was always
Speaker 1: some in there that you had to kind of clean out.
Speaker 1: And I just can't imagine doing that. Because it turns
Speaker 1: out that in the Petersburg Citadel, the latrine was in
Speaker 1: the basement, so the floor above the latrine, we would
Speaker 1: guess the first floor, that's where the hoftog was was held.
Speaker 1: And even though the Petersburg Citadel was built just like
Speaker 1: fifteen years before, there were so many people not just nobles,
Speaker 1: but all of the attendees and advisors that each noble
Speaker 1: brought with them, that the floor actually collapsed and sent
Speaker 1: a lot of people into the cesspool below.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean they say that between sixty and one
Speaker 2: hundred people died, So I mean what percentage of that
Speaker 2: was of the total people, Like, was it hundreds and
Speaker 2: hundreds of people in there or did most of them die?
Speaker 1: So I have the impression that a significant portion I'm
Speaker 1: just guessing here, a significant portion died because sixty to
Speaker 1: one hundre undred people, like you said, that was just
Speaker 1: the nobles whose deaths were recorded. Remember each noble had
Speaker 1: multiple people with him. So yeah, ostensibly hundreds of people
Speaker 1: died from falling into the cesspool, and one of the
Speaker 1: main ways they would have died is from drowning, probably
Speaker 1: being held under by other people climbing over them to
Speaker 1: try to get out of this cesspool. And honestly, you
Speaker 1: can't really blame those people for reacting like that.
Speaker 2: No, you're trying to get out of there. You're stepping
Speaker 2: on the nobleman next to you's head to get out
Speaker 2: of there.
Speaker 1: Is Burger King Crown.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. There was one source you found that said
Speaker 2: someone may have died from stench, and that may have
Speaker 2: been like an ammonia death. If the ammonia level was
Speaker 2: higher than I think you found five thousand parts per million,
Speaker 2: they could have suffered from a respiratory arrest and died.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a significant amount. I think at zero
Speaker 1: point two parts per million, humans can start to detect
Speaker 1: it by smell, so you can imagine how how crazy
Speaker 1: five thousand parts per million would be. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if they're using ammonia in the actual restrooms above to
Speaker 1: kill mites, who knows. It's entirely possible that some people
Speaker 1: did die like that.
Speaker 2: But my friend, what happened with the Hofftag? Did it
Speaker 2: kill all of our major players?
Speaker 1: No? What's astounding is that all three of the major players, Heinrich, Conrad,
Speaker 1: and Ludwig all survived.
Speaker 2: That's I mean, it's just dumb luck. Basically, I think
Speaker 2: Heinrich and Conrad had stepped into an alcove that wasn't
Speaker 2: on that floor that collapsed, and I don't think anyone
Speaker 2: knew where Ludwig was at the time, at least that
Speaker 2: it's not recorded in history. But we know Ludwig survived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, his death was recorded at six years after the
Speaker 1: air for lutrine disaster, so somehow he survived. But we
Speaker 1: know he survived, And the fact that Heinrich didn't die
Speaker 1: is considered by historians who talk about this sort of
Speaker 1: thing is a world changing event because, like we said,
Speaker 1: he went on to become Holy Roman Emperor. He also became,
Speaker 1: and this is a hat tip to our friends at
Speaker 1: Historic Mysteries who I got this from, he went on
Speaker 1: to become the king of Burgundy, Italy and Sicily. He
Speaker 1: became feudal overlord of the kings of England, Lesser Armenia
Speaker 1: and Cyprus, and tributary lord of North African princes.
Speaker 2: Geez, yeah, he got around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he became overlord of England because he captured
Speaker 1: or held Richard the First hostage and that's Richard the
Speaker 1: Lionheart from the robin Hood myths, and as ransom he said,
Speaker 1: I'll let you go, but you have to give me
Speaker 1: control over your kingdom in England, and Richard the First
Speaker 1: reluctantly agreed.
Speaker 2: Richard the First should have said, man, he almost died
Speaker 2: in a pool of poop, that's right. From What's remarkable
Speaker 2: to me is that if you go to the Petersburg
Speaker 2: cit at a website, they do not say anything about
Speaker 2: this amazing amazing they grow amazing story. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing that's a little hinky about it is
Speaker 1: that I could not for the life of me find
Speaker 1: even a reference to the name of a primary source
Speaker 1: for this, So I have no idea where it came from.
Speaker 1: If it's made up, it has become fat so thoroughly
Speaker 1: that again historians write about this kind of thing like
Speaker 1: everyone talks about it, from you know, BBC History Extra
Speaker 1: to ninety two point three rock radio Stations website for
Speaker 1: some reason.
Speaker 2: Wow, Well, maybe one day we'll do a follow up
Speaker 2: called the Latrine disaster hoax.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe we'll find out one day.
Speaker 2: Good story. It was written by a seven year old German.
Speaker 1: Apparently that's right in twenty eighteen. Yeah, let's see, it's it.
Speaker 1: We just kind of stopped talking about the disaster, which
Speaker 1: means short stuff is out.
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