WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Erfurt Latrine Disaster

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck's here too, Jerry's here too, Dave's not. That's okay

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<v Speaker 1>because Jerry's here covering for him. And this is stuff

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<v Speaker 1>you should know, short stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. And we're going to issue a trigger warning

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<v Speaker 2>on this one. You see, they're in the title the

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<v Speaker 2>words latrine disaster. So I don't think we need to

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<v Speaker 2>overexplain what's coming.

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<v Speaker 1>No, if you're easily grossed out, then be careful with this.

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<v Speaker 1>When I was researching and writing this one, I noticed

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<v Speaker 1>that my stomach was actually upset, so it really places. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm not easily I have a fairly iron stomach

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to stuff, and this one got me

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. So. But let's start at the start.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to go all the way back to eleven

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<v Speaker 1>eighty four CE, nearly a thousand years ago, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna go to is it Thuringia.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I'd never heard of that word, but that's

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<v Speaker 2>probably right.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a state that's still around in Germany, almost

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<v Speaker 1>smack dab in the center of modern day Germany, and

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<v Speaker 1>in THURINGI. In eleven eighty four there was a dispute.

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<v Speaker 1>The reason for the dispute is lost to history, but

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<v Speaker 1>we know that it was between Ludwig II, who was

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<v Speaker 1>Landgrave aka Prince of Thuringia, so he's a very powerful

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<v Speaker 1>person in the region and the other guy, the other

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<v Speaker 1>disputant was Conrad of Vittelsbach, who was at the time

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<v Speaker 1>the arch Bishop of Mainz, who was also a very

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<v Speaker 1>powerful person in the reason region.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, And like you said, we don't know exactly why,

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<v Speaker 2>and frankly, it doesn't matter as far as this story goes.

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<v Speaker 2>What matters is during this time, this is the High

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<v Speaker 2>Middle Ages, that was the King of Germany, Einrich the

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<v Speaker 2>what is that sixth He would eventually become the Holy

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<v Speaker 2>Roman Emperor. He knew this was coming, so he was

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<v Speaker 2>on a sort of campaign to lobby different rulers in

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<v Speaker 2>various lands to say, hey, let's change the line of

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<v Speaker 2>succession for the whole Roman emperor to where bloodline is

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<v Speaker 2>the key instead of just being crowned by the pope

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm in that bloodline. And so he was trying

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<v Speaker 2>to just get people on board with his plan as

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the backdrop there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that would have taken a huge amount of

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<v Speaker 1>power from the pope, so it was a pretty big deal,

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<v Speaker 1>and surprisingly he was fairly successful at raising support from

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<v Speaker 1>it around the kingdom. But there was some holdouts still

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of them were concentrated in the Thuringia area.

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<v Speaker 1>So when he heard about this dispute between Ludwig and Conrad,

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<v Speaker 1>he saw an opportunity to basically show up and act

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<v Speaker 1>fairly kingly and mediate and hopefully resolve the dispute. So

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<v Speaker 1>he would be killing two birds with one stone by

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<v Speaker 1>showing up in the town of Erfurt, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>capital of Thuringia, which he did in July of eleven

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<v Speaker 1>eighty four, and he convened what's called a hoffpug. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just killing it with the German pronunciations today. If I

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<v Speaker 1>do say so myself, I.

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<v Speaker 2>May just go tab a nap. You're doing so great, thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>So a hoftag is just like an assembly, like an

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<v Speaker 2>informal assembly, not a formal meeting. And there were a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the local rulers. Some of them came because

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<v Speaker 2>they were told to, as you know, because of this dispute.

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<v Speaker 2>Some were just like, hey, the King's going to be there,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe I can get some FaceTime, which is exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted, and it was held very Keighley.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure it works.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's another word, I just can't find it again morning recording. Importantly,

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<v Speaker 2>sure it was held at Petersburg Citadel, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>fortress there in Airfort, still there today. It was about

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen years old at that time. And even more key

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<v Speaker 2>to this is the latrine layout. And maybe we'll take

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<v Speaker 2>a little break and talk about that layout right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Chuck, now's the point where we talk about medieval

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<v Speaker 1>latrine design, which I know way more about today than

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<v Speaker 1>I did just a couple of days ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Good band name, yeah, I mean it's actually a terrible

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<v Speaker 2>band name, but a band.

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<v Speaker 1>Name, right, a band name well put yeah. So around

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<v Speaker 1>during the medieval era, especially this time in the High

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<v Speaker 1>Middle Ages, which is what we're talking about today, there

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<v Speaker 1>are a bunch of different latrine designs, and probably some

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<v Speaker 1>of the fanciest were latrines where the actual restroom where

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<v Speaker 1>you relieved yourself was essentially a little alcove just off

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<v Speaker 1>of like a hallway or just very importantly off of

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<v Speaker 1>the banquet room, because it was considered rude at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>at least in parts of Germany. To excuse yourself from

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<v Speaker 1>the table during a dinner. The problem was these dinners

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<v Speaker 1>were really, really long, and so the solution was to

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<v Speaker 1>just put the latrines right by the table so that

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<v Speaker 1>you can continue on with your conversation while you were

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<v Speaker 1>relieving yourself in this doorless restroom. That was the norm,

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<v Speaker 1>not excusing yourself from the table and going to use

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<v Speaker 1>a bathroom way far away from the table.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. The toilet seats is sort of what you

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<v Speaker 2>might imagine from a latrine. It was wooden, there was

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<v Speaker 2>a hole cut in the center. They did have a

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<v Speaker 2>masonry basin that would direct the stuff downward. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they would wipe their butts with hay or grass or

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<v Speaker 2>moss or something like that. It must be nice, it

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<v Speaker 2>must be okay, like a nice green moss.

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<v Speaker 1>A big clump of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But suffice to say, these rooms were disgusting and smelly.

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<v Speaker 2>The ammonia could get so bad. Sometimes they would hang

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<v Speaker 2>their clothes near there because they thought they may be

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<v Speaker 2>right about this, that it could ammonia could kill mite.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just the smell.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So hang your clothes up near there. And what

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<v Speaker 2>would happen if you look at the outside of a

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<v Speaker 2>castle a lot of times these restrooms were projected outward

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<v Speaker 2>from the wall itself a little bit. There was a

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<v Speaker 2>hole in the bottom, and the waste just dropped out

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<v Speaker 2>of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Just trickle down the sides of the castle, the walls

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<v Speaker 1>of it. And I guess it depends on how far

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<v Speaker 1>the alcove was projected off of the castle walls. But

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<v Speaker 1>I would guess without these tubes that later evolved to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of deposit it more cleanly towards the ground, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in a wind, that waste would just kind of trickle

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<v Speaker 1>down the castle walls, I guess, is what I'm trying

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<v Speaker 1>to say.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it would go maybe just be washed away

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<v Speaker 2>to whatever water is nearby. If you were unlucky, you

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<v Speaker 2>might have a moat full of that. You did mention tubes. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 2>in places like France they would actually have like plumbing

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<v Speaker 2>pie on the outside of the walls to make it

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<v Speaker 2>just a little neater. But then they found out, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>people can climb up these pipes to gain access to

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<v Speaker 2>the castle, so those aren't good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. In twelve oh three there was a siege of

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<v Speaker 1>Chateau Gallard and the invaders actually climbed up the sewage

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<v Speaker 1>pipes into the castle to gain access. Do you know

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<v Speaker 1>how badly you want to get into a place to

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<v Speaker 1>climb up a medieval waste pipe through the latrine, All the.

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<v Speaker 2>Waist is at least the inside of the pipe.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, I think that you had to climb up the

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<v Speaker 1>inside of the pipe to get into the castle.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. I thought that. I pictured it as like a

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<v Speaker 2>pipe running down the outside of the castle, that they

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<v Speaker 2>would just climb up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, but eventually all you're doing is hanging out on

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<v Speaker 1>the outside wall of the castle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I hadn't actually considered your your interpretation, and it's possible,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right. My mind just immediately went to the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that they had to tunnel up through the inside of

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<v Speaker 1>the pipe.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, like Andy defrayin and I'll shankredption.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, which is probably I'm sure Stephen King was

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<v Speaker 1>inspired by the Chateau Gillard story.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, all right, So none of that really matters,

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<v Speaker 2>because all that matters is that's how it worked in

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<v Speaker 2>some places. But in this particular Petersburg Citadel, it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>work like that at all. It worked like this as

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<v Speaker 2>there was a latrine and you did your poopoo and

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<v Speaker 2>your peepee, and it just went right under the floor

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<v Speaker 2>into a disgusting cesspool that would maybe be cleaned out

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<v Speaker 2>once a year by some very unfortunate servants.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Can you imagine, like you'd have to get in

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<v Speaker 1>there with buckets and rakes and have to clean it

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<v Speaker 1>out because of this kind of cesspool that would be

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<v Speaker 1>like just a pit in the basement. They usually had

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<v Speaker 1>some like slits in the top between you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>foundation of the or in the foundation of the castle,

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<v Speaker 1>so that they could only get so full before they

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<v Speaker 1>kind of overflowed. But that means that there was always

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<v Speaker 1>some in there that you had to kind of clean out.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just can't imagine doing that. Because it turns

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<v Speaker 1>out that in the Petersburg Citadel, the latrine was in

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<v Speaker 1>the basement, so the floor above the latrine, we would

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<v Speaker 1>guess the first floor, that's where the hoftog was was held.

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<v Speaker 1>And even though the Petersburg Citadel was built just like

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen years before, there were so many people not just nobles,

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<v Speaker 1>but all of the attendees and advisors that each noble

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<v Speaker 1>brought with them, that the floor actually collapsed and sent

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people into the cesspool below.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean they say that between sixty and one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred people died, So I mean what percentage of that

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<v Speaker 2>was of the total people, Like, was it hundreds and

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<v Speaker 2>hundreds of people in there or did most of them die?

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<v Speaker 1>So I have the impression that a significant portion I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just guessing here, a significant portion died because sixty to

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<v Speaker 1>one hundre undred people, like you said, that was just

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<v Speaker 1>the nobles whose deaths were recorded. Remember each noble had

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<v Speaker 1>multiple people with him. So yeah, ostensibly hundreds of people

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<v Speaker 1>died from falling into the cesspool, and one of the

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<v Speaker 1>main ways they would have died is from drowning, probably

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<v Speaker 1>being held under by other people climbing over them to

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<v Speaker 1>try to get out of this cesspool. And honestly, you

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<v Speaker 1>can't really blame those people for reacting like that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you're trying to get out of there. You're stepping

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<v Speaker 2>on the nobleman next to you's head to get out

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<v Speaker 2>of there.

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<v Speaker 1>Is Burger King Crown.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. There was one source you found that said

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<v Speaker 2>someone may have died from stench, and that may have

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<v Speaker 2>been like an ammonia death. If the ammonia level was

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<v Speaker 2>higher than I think you found five thousand parts per million,

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<v Speaker 2>they could have suffered from a respiratory arrest and died.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's a significant amount. I think at zero

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<v Speaker 1>point two parts per million, humans can start to detect

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<v Speaker 1>it by smell, so you can imagine how how crazy

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<v Speaker 1>five thousand parts per million would be. But yeah, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if they're using ammonia in the actual restrooms above to

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<v Speaker 1>kill mites, who knows. It's entirely possible that some people

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<v Speaker 1>did die like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But my friend, what happened with the Hofftag? Did it

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<v Speaker 2>kill all of our major players?

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<v Speaker 1>No? What's astounding is that all three of the major players, Heinrich, Conrad,

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<v Speaker 1>and Ludwig all survived.

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<v Speaker 2>That's I mean, it's just dumb luck. Basically, I think

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<v Speaker 2>Heinrich and Conrad had stepped into an alcove that wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>on that floor that collapsed, and I don't think anyone

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<v Speaker 2>knew where Ludwig was at the time, at least that

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<v Speaker 2>it's not recorded in history. But we know Ludwig survived.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his death was recorded at six years after the

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<v Speaker 1>air for lutrine disaster, so somehow he survived. But we

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<v Speaker 1>know he survived, And the fact that Heinrich didn't die

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<v Speaker 1>is considered by historians who talk about this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>thing is a world changing event because, like we said,

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<v Speaker 1>he went on to become Holy Roman Emperor. He also became,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is a hat tip to our friends at

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<v Speaker 1>Historic Mysteries who I got this from, he went on

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<v Speaker 1>to become the king of Burgundy, Italy and Sicily. He

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<v Speaker 1>became feudal overlord of the kings of England, Lesser Armenia

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<v Speaker 1>and Cyprus, and tributary lord of North African princes.

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<v Speaker 2>Geez, yeah, he got around.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he became overlord of England because he captured

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<v Speaker 1>or held Richard the First hostage and that's Richard the

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<v Speaker 1>Lionheart from the robin Hood myths, and as ransom he said,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll let you go, but you have to give me

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.959
<v Speaker 1>control over your kingdom in England, and Richard the First

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:42.720
<v Speaker 1>reluctantly agreed.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard the First should have said, man, he almost died

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:52.440
<v Speaker 2>in a pool of poop, that's right. From What's remarkable

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<v Speaker 2>to me is that if you go to the Petersburg

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<v Speaker 2>cit at a website, they do not say anything about

0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.680
<v Speaker 2>this amazing amazing they grow amazing story. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>The other thing that's a little hinky about it is

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<v Speaker 1>that I could not for the life of me find

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<v Speaker 1>even a reference to the name of a primary source

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<v Speaker 1>for this, So I have no idea where it came from.

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<v Speaker 1>If it's made up, it has become fat so thoroughly

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.880
<v Speaker 1>that again historians write about this kind of thing like

0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.440
<v Speaker 1>everyone talks about it, from you know, BBC History Extra

0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>to ninety two point three rock radio Stations website for

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<v Speaker 1>some reason.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, Well, maybe one day we'll do a follow up

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<v Speaker 2>called the Latrine disaster hoax.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe maybe we'll find out one day.

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<v Speaker 2>Good story. It was written by a seven year old German.

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<v Speaker 1>Apparently that's right in twenty eighteen. Yeah, let's see, it's it.

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<v Speaker 1>We just kind of stopped talking about the disaster, which

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<v Speaker 1>means short stuff is out.

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0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.240
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0:13:58.280 --> 0:13:58.920
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0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:00.880
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