1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: The year was nineteen eighty six and Golden Girls, a 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: groundbreaking news sitcom, was in its second season. The show 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: followed the escapades of four senior women living together in 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Miami as they navigated their friendships and their sex lives. 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: That in of itself was radical for the time, but 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the show also pushed boundaries in more subtle ways, like 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: in this episode where Jean, a college friend of Dorothy's, 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: comes to visit the Girls. 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: And they find out she is a lesbian. Come on, now, 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: I heard you laughin What's so fun It? 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 3: The Stars? 12 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: She is a lesbian, but there was some confusion. 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 4: What's funny about that? 14 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: You aren't surprised, of course not. 15 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I've never known any personally. 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: But isn't Danny Thomas want not Lebanese lesbian. 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: It's a classic sitcom joke, a silly play on words, 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: and one that might have been forgotten over time, and 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: yet that joke, that punchline has lived on for nearly 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: forty years. I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie bennakaarm and 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit. 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: A cultural moment from the past that shaped us. 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 3: And that we just can't stop thinking about. 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about the Golden Girls first encounter with 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: a lesbian and the way it spawned an enduring gay joke, 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: but we're also talking about the creative ways that Hollywood 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: has written and sometimes hidden queer characters for decades. This 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: is part one, So, Susie, we're talking today about an 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: episode of The Golden Girls called Isn't It Romantic? But, 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: as I like to refer to it, the Lebanese Lesbian Episode. 31 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: This episode aired in November nineteen eighty six on the NBC, 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: and it centers around a friend of Dorothy's who comes 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: to town to stay with the Girls, who happens to 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: be a lesbian. 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 3: How scandalous. 36 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: And to set the scene a little bit, you know, 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: this was the Reagan era. Shoulder pads are grazing the 38 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: runways and the workplace, and Golden Girls was this wildly 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: popular show. Each Saturday night at nine pm, millions of 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: Americans gathered on their living room sofas to tune into 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: the lives of Dorothy, Rose, Sophia, and Blanche, who are 42 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: four women living together in Miami, and the characters. They 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: were all widowed or divorced and what's so funny is 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: that they were actually described in all the media as 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: elderly back then, even though most of them were in 46 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: their fifties. 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: That's worrying for me, right, And the. 48 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Show documents their lives, you know, while they navigate life 49 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: and love and friendship and sex, and Blanche in particular, 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: has a lot of sex. 51 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: Susie, did you watch the Golden Girls? 52 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 3: I did watch Golden Girls. Yeah, I watched growing up, 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: and I feel like we watched as family a lot 54 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: of the time. Our favorite character was Sophia, who was 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: Dorothy's mom who lived with the girls, And I think 56 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 3: I always liked that because my grandmother lived with us, 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 3: so it felt very representative of an immigrant family, and 58 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: Sofia was Sicilian, so she told a lot of anecdotes 59 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: from the old country. 60 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: I think that was really common. 61 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: This was a show that a lot of people watched intergenerationally, 62 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: and the characters included Sophia, the Sicilian mother of Dorothy, 63 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: who was played by Bee Arthur. She's kind of this 64 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: wise cracking substitute teacher who's like always wearing a calf doan, 65 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: I know, my hero. And then there's Blanche played by 66 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: Rue McClanahan. 67 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: She's kind of like the man hungry Southern Bell. 68 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: Who's like always talking about sex, and she owns the 69 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: house that they all live in. And then of course 70 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: there is Betty White's character Rose, who is this innocent 71 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: farm girl from Minnesota who kind of never gets the jokes. 72 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: It is funny that they were in their fifties because 73 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 3: I remembered them being very old ladies. 74 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean, there was that meme going around comparing Sex 75 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: and the City those women now to the Golden Girls then, 76 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: and like, just the way they look side by side 77 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: is so different. 78 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: I remember that meme because it was making the rounds 79 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: on social media. After that new Sex and the City 80 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: reboot came out and fans realized that the actors are 81 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: actually a little older than the Golden Girls were supposed 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 3: to be back then, which really encapsulates how differently we 83 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 3: think about women in their fifties now than we did then. 84 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: I mean, they all had gray hair, I feel like, 85 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 3: or if it wasn't gray, it felt like it. 86 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: Was well and there were certainly you know, like the caftan, 87 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: like they were dressing like older women. Yeah, but that 88 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: was part of what made this show great Golden Girls, 89 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: I think was ahead of its time in various ways. 90 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: For one, it was created by a woman, Susan Harris, 91 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: but the characters and the women playing the characters were 92 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: all women who might have been considered past their prime 93 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: in other contexts. And not only were they supposedly pass 94 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: their prime, but they were extremely open about their sex lives. 95 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: Like I think in a lot of ways, the Golden 96 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: Girls were the original sex positives. 97 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: I happen to have an affection for buyes. Matter of fact, 98 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: I became a woman in one. I thought you lost 99 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: it in the hot air balloon. 100 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: I thought you lost it at a pancake breakfast. 101 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: Well, those don't count. And they were always dating, which 102 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: I think is also another thing that you don't really 103 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 3: see for elderly and quotes women that they have active 104 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: romantic lives, and that was a huge part of the storylines. 105 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: Before we get into the episode itself, Susie, you're a 106 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: resident TV expert, we need to explain for people who 107 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: didn't live during this era what you need to know 108 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: about eighties sitcoms. 109 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the difference is is that 110 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 3: sitcoms were very much appointment television when we were growing up, 111 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: you knew what time they came on. There was always 112 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 3: between eight and eleven o'clock at night, and if you 113 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: were lucky, your family let you stay up to watch them, 114 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: and they were family friendly. You gathered around to television 115 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: together and you watched and it sort of felt like 116 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: you knew those people right. And they also had this 117 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: kind of famous laugh track, this can the laugh. It 118 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 3: did just become the soundtrack of these shows, and so 119 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: it helped q you on what was supposed to be 120 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: a joke and how it worked. I actually, I have 121 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 3: to say I love sitcoms. It feels funny to admit 122 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: this now, but we really love The Cosby Show in 123 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 3: my family, and I even like, you know, some more 124 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: current sitcoms, like I loved Modern Family. So it's very 125 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 3: much I think when you're an immigrant family one of 126 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: the ways in which you learn about how America is 127 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: supposed to work. 128 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: And that's an interesting point because I think that these 129 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: shows were catering to mainstream America, and so often they 130 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: were really trying to reflect the cultural norms of the time, 131 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: which you know, sometimes were retrograde in some ways, but 132 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: occasionally these shows would push against them. Either subtly or 133 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: not so subtly, like I Love Lucy did this in 134 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties with pregnancy at a time when even 135 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: just the word was forbidden on TV. 136 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 3: Why was pregnancy a forbidden word? Like, it's not a 137 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: dirty thing to be pregnant? She was married. 138 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: We're going to get into all of the weird, oh 139 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: my god, around what you can and can't say on television. 140 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: But the thing is when this episode, when Golden Girls 141 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: was airing, there were really very few gay characters on television, 142 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: and especially in the eighties and mid eighties, if a 143 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: writer did dare to create one, the plotline around that 144 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: character often related to aids. And then within those gay representations, 145 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: it was so rare to be almost nonexistent to actually 146 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: feature and out lesbian on a sitcom. 147 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't remember one until actually much later. The 148 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: one that comes to mind immediately for me is Grade's Anatomy, 149 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: But I mean that was in the two thousands, so 150 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: I mean we're talking about much later. 151 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there were definitely ones before that. But 152 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: the thing about this episode is that it's coming out 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: at a time when Golden Girls is really at the 154 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: top of its game. It has a devoted regular audience 155 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: of fifteen to twenty million viewers, and out of the 156 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: top ten most viewed shows, it ranks number five. 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 158 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I knew it was hugely popular, but I 159 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: don't know that I realized it was so popular. But 160 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: also the interesting thing is it's become kind of this 161 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: cult show since I remember watching it when I was 162 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: growing up, But then I have friends who are still 163 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: obsessed with it, so it really has taken on like 164 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: a cultural meaning beyond just that time. 165 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get into the episode. This episode, as 166 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: I mentioned, is called Isn't It Romantic? And it airs 167 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: in season two, and the real plot of the episode 168 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: involves Dorothy's college friend Jean, who was coming to visit 169 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: the girls after the death of her longtime partner Pat 170 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: Pat note the gender or neutral name. 171 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: It's easy for the girls to assume that. 172 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: Pat may be a man, and Jane is and has 173 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: always been, a lesbian, and Dorothy knows this, but she's 174 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: worried about telling the other girls. And then what ends 175 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: up happening, which gets us to our Lebanese moment, is 176 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: that we learn that Gene actually develops a crush on 177 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: Rose and so Dorothy then tells her mom, who gets 178 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: like a kick out of this, and they're in the 179 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: bedroom giggling and in walks Blant, come on. 180 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: Now, I heard you laughin what's so fully? 181 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: Sophia then tells Blanche that Jean is a lesbian, but 182 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: Blanche thinks she means Lebanese, and so she asks if 183 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: Danny Thomas, who's a popular Lebanese American entertainer at that time, is. 184 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: One not Lebanese lesbian clesbian lesbian lesbia? 185 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: Isn't that? 186 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 4: Well one moment in the numb you already know what. 187 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: Dorothy then tells Blanche the Gene, the lesbian has developed 188 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: feelings for Rose, and Blanche in like typical Blanche passion, 189 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, she sort of famously loves attention, is totally 190 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: unconcerned that Gane is a lesbian, but she's very concerned 191 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: that Jane is into Rose and not her. 192 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: It's a classic Bland But actually I have to say 193 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 3: it feels pretty progressive how well they're all taking the news. 194 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 3: How does this all end up playing out? 195 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it plays out in kind of classic 196 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: Golden Girls fashion. Basically, Rose still doesn't know that Gene 197 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: is a lesbian and she definitely doesn't know that Jane 198 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: likes her, but they're developing this friendship, and then there's 199 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: this really funny misunderstanding where they're staying up late and 200 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: the other girls are asleep, and so Rose is like, well, Gene, 201 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: you can sleep in my bed with me. 202 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: And so then there's this scene. 203 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: Where they're in bed and Jane kind of rolls over 204 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: and tells Rose that she's quite fond of her. And 205 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: I love this line because it's like so sweet and innocent. 206 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: But then you watch as this kind of clicks in 207 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: Rose's mine what's actually going on here? And she in 208 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: response pretends to be asleep. 209 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: Do they talk about it eventually? 210 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So eventually this little bit of drama is all resolved, 211 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: and you know, they have this nice conversation and the 212 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: girls remain friends but not lovers. And so the Lebanese 213 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: joke is not actually the focus of the episode itself, 214 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: Like it comes midway through after we find out that 215 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: Gen has the hots for Rose, and it's funny, it's 216 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: well timed, it's not too heavy handed, it's like maybe 217 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: not even that funny, but it seems to be playing 218 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: on this idea that the words Lebanese and lesbian sound similar. 219 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 3: It's a perfect sitcom joke, though, right sitcom jokes are 220 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 3: a little like absurd and not righteously funny. For the 221 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 3: most part, they're almost like a little punny or juvenile. 222 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: You know that it's meant to be kind of silly. 223 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: But okay, So like for many reasons, this was an 224 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: episode that really stuck in people's minds, and it was 225 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: groundbreaking in a lot of ways, but it was not 226 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: groundbreaking for the Lebanese joke, and so you might have 227 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: thought that that joke would have you know, whatever, it 228 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: gets lost to history. 229 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: It's kind of funny. 230 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: We move on, and yet then a full decade later, 231 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: it appears again in a very public fashion on an 232 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: episode of The Rosy O'donnald Show, where Ellen Degenerous appears. 233 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 3: Oh interesting. 234 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: You probably remember this time because they were rumors circulating 235 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: that Ellen, her character on her sitcom, and also Ellen 236 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: the real person, was gay, and that she was going 237 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: to come out as gay, which she soon would in 238 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: April I believe, of nineteen ninety seven. 239 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 4: So I'm gay. 240 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I completely remember this. It was such 241 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 3: a big deal because there had never been a gay 242 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: lead on a sitcom or primetime television show before. 243 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: Right, and so this appearance on Rosy's show is before 244 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: any of that happens. 245 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: I'll just walk you through it. So Ellen comes on stage, 246 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: they banter. 247 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: Rosie is asking her about rumors about Ellen's character on 248 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: the show, and she gives her the opportunity to set 249 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the record straight, and so then Ellen reveals, well, you know, 250 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: we do find out that the character is Lebanese. And 251 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: so Rosie says, watch us out of the Blue, and 252 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: Ellen then jokes about, how you know there have been 253 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: clues that she might be Lebanese, Like she eats a 254 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: lot of Baba good noosh, she's pretty good the hummus, 255 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: and she's a big fan of Kasey kase and the DJ. 256 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 3: This is Casey case American Top forty. 257 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: Has moved to a new who I actually didn't realize 258 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: was Lebanese. 259 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: I did not know that either, And so. 260 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: Then Rosie says, you know, I also like Casey case 261 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: of like maybe I'm Lebanese. And Ellen says, you know, Rosie, 262 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: sometimes I pick up that you might be Lebanese. And 263 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, basically the whole thing is this kind of 264 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: wink wink, but like an obvious one. And Rosie ends 265 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: by saying, you know, actually good for the network, like 266 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: many networks wouldn't be so comfortable with different ethnicities, that's amazing. 267 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: And then Ellen closes it off by saying, well, you know, Rosie, 268 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: like half of Hollywood is lebonies. 269 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,359 Speaker 3: I got I love this. But Rosie wasn't out yet, right. 270 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: No, Rosie was not formally out. 271 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: She didn't come out until two thousand and two, after 272 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: this talk show had ended. But I think people knew. Like, 273 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: that's why it's funny. That's why the joke worked, and 274 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: it becomes this whole kind of like wink wink. We 275 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: can have this whole conversation about our sexuality without actually 276 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: using the word lesbian, and the audience is going to 277 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: get it. And of course is at a time when 278 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: it's much less common to be out in Hollywood, and 279 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: that's what makes the joke. 280 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: Didn't remain right about this moment between Rosie and Ellen 281 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 3: in his book about the View. 282 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: Yes, he did so for listeners. 283 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: This is romin Instituta, our friend who is now the 284 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: editor of Variety, and he wrote a book called Ladies 285 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: Who Punch, which is all about the juicy inside details 286 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: of the view. And in the book, he talks to 287 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: Rosie about Ellen's coming out, and there's this really interesting 288 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: quote where she says to remain I remember thinking, well, 289 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: she's going to ruin her whole career. And then when 290 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: Ellen came on Rosie's show, Rosie said she had to 291 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: figure out a way to here's the quote, stand next 292 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: to her so that everybody in the know is going 293 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: to know I'm not leaving her out there alone. 294 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, right, because she doesn't want to seem 295 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: like she's not in solidarity with her, but she's also 296 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: worried about her own career, like it must have been 297 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: very complicated actually exactly. 298 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: And so they're doing it in this way where it's 299 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: kind of like if you know, you. 300 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: Know, yeah, but it's actually kind of sweet, right, I mean, 301 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: it makes that mom even more meaningful because it's a 302 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: way of her showing support and finding a way to 303 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: do it in a way that's going to get through 304 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: the censors. I'm sure had they seen the joke on 305 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 3: Golden Girls, is that where it came from. 306 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: Well, so that's the thing we don't know. 307 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you have to presume, so I've gone up 308 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: and down like into nexus, like deep dive all the 309 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: way trying to find the origins of this joke. And 310 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: the first known use of it is on Golden Girls. 311 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: So had Rosie seen Golden Girls? I'm not sure? 312 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: Or was this something that was kind of one of 313 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: those things that was out in the ether where you 314 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: don't really know the origin, Like it kind of reminds 315 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: me of the lesbian U haul joke, like what do 316 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: you bring to the second date? 317 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: A U haul? 318 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: Wait? 319 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: Is that joke from something I don't know? We've all 320 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: always heard that joke. 321 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: It's certainly appeared in various sitcoms and on television and 322 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: pop culture, but I don't know that anyone really knows 323 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: the origin. Though probably if our listeners are anything like 324 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: New York Times readers, they will now fact check us 325 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: on that, which I welcome. 326 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: Please tell us tell you that joke. 327 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of these wink wink nod jokes 328 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: when it comes to people's sexuality. And actually, this makes 329 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: me think of something that Searon, one of our producers, 330 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: point out, which is Gene in the Golden Girls episode 331 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: is a quote friend of Dorothy. Friend of Dorothy is 332 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: a reference often used for a gay person that comes 333 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: from Dorothy. 334 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: And the Wizard of uz. 335 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 3: Oh, that's where Friend of Dorothy comes from. 336 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: Yes, And so this too is one of those jokes 337 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: with like unclear origins. Best I could find for why 338 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: that is the case is because Dorothy was played by 339 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: Judy Garland, who, though she herself was not gay or 340 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: at least not that we know of, was a huge 341 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: icon to the gay community. 342 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 3: That's amazing. Yeah, of course I've heard Friend of Dorothy, 343 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 3: but I didn't connect it to this episode. But that's 344 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 3: I wonder if the writers were sort of doing like 345 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 3: a wink to that. 346 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: I feel like they must have been right, Like there's 347 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: all these kind of wink wink nod nods. And so 348 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: then the next time the joke appears, this is I 349 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: know a favorite movie of both of ours comes in. 350 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: Mean Girl on Wednesdays. We were pink best movie, the 351 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 2: best movie. 352 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: And so this time so this is again the Lebanies 353 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: lesbian joke, and this time the plot point involves Janice. 354 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: Janis is like the Gothy indie side character. 355 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 3: Well, she's the one who takes in the Lindsay Lohan 356 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: character when she doesn't have friends in the beginning. 357 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: Right exactly, and she's kind of this outsider and her 358 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: best friend is gay, and she presents as a lesbian 359 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, which is something that Regina 360 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: George then uses to make fun of her throughout. I 361 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: was like, Dans, I can't bite you because I think 362 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: you're a lesbian. 363 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't have a lesbian at my party. 364 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: There could be girls. 365 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: There in their bathing suits. 366 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: My god, Regina George is such a bitch. So that's 367 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: Regina George making fun of janis Ian. By the way, 368 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: janis Ian named after a famous nineteen seventies lesbian singer songwriter, 369 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: So like, that's another kind of underhanded thing there. Okay, 370 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: So then you get to the very end of the 371 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: movie and jan and Katie and everyone are at the 372 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: school dance and Janis you'll remember, is wearing this very 373 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: androgynous suit. But she's dancing with Kevin G, who is 374 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: one of the guys from Katie's math to you, like 375 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: the Kevin G math to her math let, a fellow 376 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: math lete athlete. Yes, so she's dancing with Katie's fellow mathlete, 377 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: Kevin G. And Kevin G says to her Puerto Rican Lebanese. 378 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: Wait, she wasn't Lebanese. 379 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 4: No, she is blowing my mind. 380 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: I'm such an innocent I was like, oh, she's Lebanies 381 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 3: like me midd least third. 382 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: Well, No, she is Lebanese, and and she talks about 383 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: it at various points in the time. But she's also 384 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: subscribed to the queer fan theory, like, yes, this is 385 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: her confirming to those who know that she is also 386 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: a lesbian. Okay, that's there's all these funny fan theory 387 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean, like you can go deep into mean girls 388 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: fan theories. But like one of the theories is that 389 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: at some point Jana says she's Lebanese, Regina may have 390 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: misheard her, and so that's why she thinks she's. 391 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: That makes sense. Yeah, that's hilarious. 392 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: You know, you could see the ending of that movie 393 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: as her telling Kevin g she's Lebanese flat like that's 394 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: that's it. Or you could read it as her coming 395 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: out and so there are various interpretations of what that means. 396 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 3: Wow, this is blowing my mind. 397 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: So, Susie, if you can't tell already, I got a 398 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: little bit obsessed with this lesbian Lebanese joke and I 399 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: really started going down a rabbit hole that took way 400 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: too much time. 401 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: But I went on a journey because I. 402 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: Needed to know where the origin of this joke was 403 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: and like, was it really as simplistic as it sounded? 404 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I love this about you. One 405 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 3: of my favorite things about you is that you can 406 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: come up again something that just seems simple and then 407 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 3: spend hours and hours trying to come up with the 408 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: origin too. And I do think it's going to pay off. 409 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 3: And I am sort of curious. What did you hope 410 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: you were gonna find? Like, what was the thing you 411 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: were searching for? 412 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: Well, I guess I wanted to credit the original author 413 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: of the joke, but I wanted to know if there 414 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: was something we weren't getting, Like it just seems too simple, 415 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: Like is it really just. 416 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: A play on words? 417 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: You seriously mix up the words lebanies and lesbian, Like 418 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: I just didn't get it, and I thought there must 419 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: be more to it. 420 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 3: I mean, this is very writerly of you to want 421 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 3: a minute is sure that whoever came up with this 422 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 3: had really gotten the credit they deserved. I love that. 423 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: So, Okay, here's where I began. I had a great 424 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: place to start, which is with my friend Maya Salaam. 425 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: She is a culture editor at the New York Times. 426 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: She is a Golden Girls super fan. Her dog is 427 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: named after be Arthur. 428 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 3: That's amazing. 429 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: And on top of that, she is an actual Lebanese lesbian. 430 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: Oh wow, So I figure she would be a good 431 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: place to begin. 432 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 4: I've been thinking about it and obsessing about it. 433 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 5: This like very strange play on words for so many 434 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 5: decades that in twenty ten I actually bought the domain 435 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 5: Lebanese lesbian dot com with high hopes of creating a blog, 436 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 5: and the only thing I did on it was actually 437 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 5: embed the clip from that Golden Girls. 438 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 4: Episode at the top. 439 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: Amazing. 440 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 4: So this is this has been a long running theme 441 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 4: in my life. 442 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So I was screaming on the phone with Maya 443 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: because I had no idea when I called her that 444 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: that website was a thing. 445 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 3: I mean, when perfect thing. 446 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: The other thing is that Maya actually remembers watching that 447 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: episode in real time, so I'll let her explain what 448 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: it was like to see that. 449 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 4: We had only been in the US for a couple 450 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 4: of years. 451 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 5: My family came to America from Baryt Lebanon and I 452 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 5: took to watching a lot of TV as soon as 453 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 5: we got here. It was kind of like my little 454 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 5: outlet in a way that I learned a lot about 455 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 5: pretty much everything I learned about American culture, and I 456 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 5: was obsessed with the Golden Girls from the start. 457 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 4: I still am. 458 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 5: I was sitting on the living room floor, I know 459 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 5: my mom and at least one of my sisters was 460 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 5: in the room, not Lebanese, and of course they heard 461 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 5: the word Lebanese and you know, kind of like caught 462 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 5: everyone's attention. But then they kind of paused because they 463 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 5: understood what the word lesbian meant, even though I didn't. 464 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 5: So it was sort of like I was this little 465 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 5: girl like cracking up at this joke, and they were frozen, 466 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 5: probably in fear that I was going to ask them 467 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 5: what lesbian meant. 468 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 4: At that young age, I didn't know what a lesbian was. 469 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 5: But to hear Lebanese, which you know, obviously I am, 470 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 5: and was such It's such a you know, interesting word 471 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 5: and not one that I was hearing in my life. 472 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 4: We were in Missouri at the time. 473 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: To hear it on like the most popular show on television, 474 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: it just made me feel so. 475 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: Heard and seen it would be a number of years 476 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: before my would actually come out as a lesbian. 477 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: But I just love that image of her in the 478 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: TV room watching this show so much to me too. 479 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 3: I mean, I know from watching TV with my Middle 480 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 3: Eastern family that anything that was even vaguely scandalous was 481 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 3: so uncomfortable. 482 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: And so Maya has actually gone on to cover this 483 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: subject as a journalist, and not just Golden Girls, but 484 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: the idea of queer representation on television. So I thought 485 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: for sure she could help me understand where this joke 486 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: came from, like this was a joke that had followed 487 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: her her entire life. 488 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: But she didn't know. 489 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 3: God, You're never going to get to the bottom of this, 490 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: but you will. 491 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: Well, no, I am, So where did I go from there? 492 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so every lesbian I know received a phone call 493 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: or a text about this. 494 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: I'm sure they really appreciated. 495 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 2: My resident owl got. 496 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: A phone calls an old wise lesbian. 497 00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing. 498 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: She had never heard of it. 499 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: I then was with my friends Danielle and Sarah, and 500 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: Sarah has a friend who is Lebanie, not a lesbian, 501 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: but Lebanese, and so we texted her asking if she'd 502 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: ever heard of it, and she actually said yes, like, 503 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: oh my god, I've been so confused by this for years, 504 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: like this is a bad joke that people would say 505 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: to me when I would say I'm Lebanese. And so 506 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: so I was like, wait, what, like how does that look? 507 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: And so she wrote this out on text so her, 508 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: I'm Lebanese guy, you're a lesbian. 509 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 3: Of course, I mean you can sort of picture that 510 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: at every frat party, like. 511 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: If you're like, oh, that's what she said, Joe, Yeah. 512 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: And then I was in the middle of a deep 513 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: research dig and realized I was late to therapy, and 514 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: so I paused for therapy and then I asked my therapist, 515 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: she's not Lebanese, but she is a lesbian. 516 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 2: I like, we have to. 517 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: Clarify for each person, now Lean lesbian or ros And 518 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: she very much knew the joke. She knew immediately, but 519 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: she too thought that it had originated with Rosie and Ellen, 520 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: not with the Golden Girls. And actually she also made 521 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: the good point that there are a lot of these 522 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: types of jokes that persist. Another one that she uses 523 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: with her friends is the toaster oven joke from. 524 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 3: Ellen Wait I don't know the toaster oven, Jake. 525 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: I had to look this up, but basically, it's a 526 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: joke about how if you recruit a straight woman to 527 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: the lesbian cause, they get a toaster oven as their reward. 528 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: It was like a gift of recruitment, and so in 529 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: common usage, it's like, oh, yeah, did you give her 530 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: a toast raven? 531 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: So I thought it was like a reward for the 532 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 3: person who had recruited the straight woman into the lesbian. 533 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: Cause, well, maybe she deserves a toaster oven. 534 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 4: Too, Yeah, susan. 535 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 3: Stuff of that. 536 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So that clearly got me nowhere. But finally I 537 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: reached out to Drew Mackie. 538 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: He is a journalist and the co host of an 539 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: amazing podcast that I now can't stop listening to called 540 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: Gayest Episode Ever. 541 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: And so here's what Drew told me. 542 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 6: I was really thinking about this is the hardest question 543 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 6: in the list of questions you sent me. I'm like, 544 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 6: why is this a thing? And it made me think 545 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 6: of lake Titycocca, where lake Titycoca is like an easy 546 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 6: joke in the culture of anyone who's not someone who 547 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 6: lives around lake Titycca, because it sounds like something funny, 548 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 6: even though it's not that thing, And I'm. 549 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: Like, is that it? 550 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: I really do think that's it? 551 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: Is it? 552 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 6: That simplistic Lebanese sounds like this word that is sexual 553 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 6: in nature? And no matter how much studying and maturing 554 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 6: we do, we are still little kids giggling at the 555 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 6: thing that sounds like another thing. And I can't think 556 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 6: of another explanation for it. 557 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 3: I mean, it's sort of like how kids laugh whatever 558 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: you say uranus, even though uranus is not objectively a 559 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 3: funny word. 560 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: Yes, on that note, before I get into how Drew 561 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: helped me unlock the mystery of this joke, there's a 562 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: small but very important piece of his personal history that 563 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: cuse I think you need to hear. 564 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 6: I remember learning the word slut from Sophia and then 565 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 6: using it at school. Did not understand what it meant. 566 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 6: I just thought it was like a generic insult for 567 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 6: someone that you don't like. And then I had to 568 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 6: have explained to me that just because Sophia says something 569 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 6: does not mean that I should be allowed to say it, 570 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 6: which was surprising to me. It was like, Oh, she's 571 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 6: allowed to say that on TV and I can't in school. 572 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: That's weird. 573 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 2: Who did you call a slut? 574 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 6: By the way, this girl named not Aida and we 575 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 6: were fighting over like some sort of toy on the playground. 576 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 6: I was like in second grade and then she was like, 577 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 6: missus Brown, Drew called me a slut. 578 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 3: And she was like, what you're like? 579 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: Sophia said it literally, I. 580 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 6: Can remember being like, but like, I learned it from 581 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 6: Golden Girls. 582 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 3: It's really funny that he actually learned the word slut 583 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: from an actual grandmother. 584 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: It's perfect. 585 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the show was not just groundbreaking, but it 586 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: was educational in a really important way. And speaking of educational, 587 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: Drew has actually written a very well researched oral history 588 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: of episode oh wow. He did it a few years 589 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: back for a now defunct gay magazine out of la 590 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: called Frontiers. But as part of that oral history, he 591 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: spoke to this guy, Jeffrey Dutiel, who was apparently the 592 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: man who was actually responsible for writing that episode of 593 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: The Golden Girls. 594 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm genuinely impressed by how far down this rabbit 595 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: hole you went. 596 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: Thank you. But also we're not done. 597 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 3: Oh I know. 598 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: So I obviously had to get in touch with Jeffrey, 599 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: but Drew couldn't find his email. So then we began 600 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: this game of telephone, which essentially was first I spoke 601 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: to this woman. This is like the behind the scenes 602 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: reporting that you normally don't put into the article, but 603 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: since we're on a podcast, yeah, I love it. So 604 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: first I spoke to Winnifred Hervey, who herself is a 605 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: trailblazer in many ways. She wrote and executive produced shows 606 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: like The Cosby Show, The Fresh Prince of bel Air, 607 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: and she was a co producer on Golden Girls. 608 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 609 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: But she didn't know the origin, of course. So she 610 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: put me in touch with a guy called Barry fin Narrow. 611 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: He was a staff writer on the show during the 612 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: time that this episode aired, and I spoke with him 613 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: and he actually claimed that he had written a joke. 614 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: But then here's the twist. I finally heard from Jeffrey. 615 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: He's retired now, he's seventy two, he's a grandparent, and 616 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: he explained in more detail that, yeah, he had been 617 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: a freelancer at the time and he loved Golden Girls. 618 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: He was an out gay man. He knew Winifred from 619 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: working with her on a past sitcom, and so he 620 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: got this specscript to her and the joke came to 621 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: him in a quote burst of creative luck. 622 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: So I tend to believe Jeffrey here. 623 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to get into the middle 624 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of this. I'm sure that everyone had a hand in it. 625 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm not going to immediate being very many years have passed. 626 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: But I did learn two important things from the series 627 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: of conversations. First, as Barry reminded me, all of the 628 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: characters on this show were a little night so it's 629 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: not that crazy to think that Blanche might have actually 630 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: mixed up Lesbian for Lebanese. 631 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: That's fair. 632 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: And Second, what Jeffrey's blamed was that there was actually 633 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: an inside joke here too, and that was that Danny Thomas, 634 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: who we spoke about before, this famous comedian and actor 635 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: who was Lebanese, is the father not only of Marlow Thomas, 636 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: but of Tony Thomas, whose production company ran Golden Girls. 637 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 638 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: So on top of the wordplay, there was this kind 639 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: of poking fun at Tony Thomas because. 640 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: It's his dad, and now we're going to call his 641 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: dad a lesbian. 642 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 3: Oh god, there are so many layers here we could 643 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 3: never have predicted when we started on this journey. 644 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: I love this exactly. 645 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: There's another thing, Susie that became very clear in talking 646 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: to Jeffrey, which is basically that Golden Girls was always 647 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: for the gas. 648 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 3: Because it has kind of like a gay icon status. 649 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean that very much is true. 650 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: Now there are Golden Girls cruises and drag shows on 651 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: like every kind of Golden Girls themed event under the sun, now, 652 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: which all sound amazing. 653 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: I would love to go on a Golden Girls cruise. 654 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: But I guess what I didn't realize was that Golden 655 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: Girls has ties to gay culture that are much deeper 656 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: and really go all the way back to its inception. 657 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: Oh really, So from the very first episode in the pilot, 658 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: there is an out and proud gay character, Coco. 659 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this. He was kind 660 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: of a houseboy. 661 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: He was then written off, so like arguable how progressive 662 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: that character actually was. But from the very first episode, 663 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't remember that. And then there was this episode 664 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: where Blanche's brother Clayton comes out and he pretends that 665 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: he has slept with Rose in order to disguise from 666 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: the fact that he's gay. But the point of the 667 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: episode is really that Blanche has to confront her own homophobia. 668 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: So then a little bit later the show took on 669 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: AIDS in nineteen ninety, but not in the way you 670 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: might have thought. Like in the episode, it's Rose who's 671 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: told she may have contracted HIV during a blood transfusion, 672 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: and this is an exchange between she and Blanche. 673 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: I'm just saying that I am a good person. 674 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 4: Hell, I'm a goody two shoes. Age is not a 675 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: bad person's disease. 676 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: Rose. 677 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: It is not God punishing people for their sins. 678 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: Wow, that's really progressive. I think at that time there 679 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: really was this right wing talking point that AIDS was 680 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: like punishment. So it's impressive they took that on. It's 681 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: a really poignant line. And then there's this other fact 682 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: that Drew alerted me to, which is another episode. It's 683 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 3: in Valentine's Day episode, and you know, many of these 684 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 3: women are widowed, and so Blanche goes to this bar 685 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 3: where she orders two glasses of champagne. 686 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: To commemorate her late husband. 687 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: And while she's there, she meets a young man who's 688 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: going to propose to his boyfriend. And all of this 689 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: is to say that the episode basically ends with Blanche 690 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: saying love is love. 691 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: The line love is love. 692 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: Wait was that a political slogan at that time? No? 693 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: Oh, because this was nineteen eighty nine, and that, of 694 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: course is the phrase that became known as the slogan 695 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: or part of the rallying cry for marriage equality. 696 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 3: So that's an amazing sort of little negative political history 697 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 3: that ties to this. 698 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, these were like really big and overt moments of 699 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: gay representation in the show, but there were also more 700 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: subtle ones too. Here's Drew Mackie, co host of Gayest 701 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: Episode Ever again. 702 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 6: You have these four women living together in a chosen family, 703 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 6: and the reasons that they've been separated from their nuclear 704 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 6: families are different from what would separate a queer person 705 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 6: from their nuclear family, especially back in the eighties, But 706 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 6: the result is the same. They're living together and they're 707 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 6: getting the kind of stuff that you would normally expect 708 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 6: to get from parent, siblings, extended family. They're getting it 709 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 6: from each other, even though except for Dorothy and Sophia, 710 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 6: they're not related. And it doesn't mean any less to 711 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 6: these four women. This is a really powerful relationship they 712 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,439 Speaker 6: have with each other. And I think that's subconsciously really 713 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 6: good model for anyone really, and I think that is 714 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 6: the genius of sitcoms, is that you don't watch to relate, 715 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 6: or you don't certainly don't watch to learn. 716 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 3: You just watched to laugh. 717 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 6: And if this show is written intelligently enough, they will 718 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 6: educate you regardless. And you may not ever realize that 719 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 6: that show changed your opinions about anything, particularly gay people. 720 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 6: But I think this show definitely did, and this episode 721 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 6: definitely did. 722 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting what Drew is saying here, 723 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: which is that whether purposeful or not, these messages like 724 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: chosen family, friendship, community, they really stuck with people, and 725 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: especially gay viewers. And actually, when I was emailing back 726 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: and forth with Jeffrey, the writer of the episode, he 727 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: described how the Golden Girls characters for him and for 728 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: so many of the men he still hears from, became 729 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: like these surrogate mothers. They were like aunties and grandmothers, 730 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: right because they were accepting, right. 731 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 3: I mean, these examples you've gone through are all examples 732 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 3: of these women kind of coming to terms with whatever 733 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 3: or personal feelings they might have had and then embracing 734 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 3: their loved ones, no matter what their sexual orientation. That 735 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 3: had to feel relatively unique back then. 736 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I think all of this plays into 737 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: the way that the show was so embraced by the 738 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: gay community. And so another thing that I didn't know 739 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: that I learned from Jeffrey the writer, was that he 740 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: before he wrote this episode, when he was simply a fan, 741 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: he would gather with his friends and his community in 742 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,720 Speaker 1: this kind of communal celebratory watching of the Golden Girls. 743 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: So for him, that meant going to gay bars in 744 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: LA on Saturday nights and at nine o'clock with a 745 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: new Golden Girls episode would air, they would like turn 746 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: off the dance music. Everyone would gather around the television. 747 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: They would watch the show in the bar, and then 748 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: it would end and they would turn the music back on. 749 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: Everyone would go back to partying. 750 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 3: That sounds so fun, honestly. 751 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: And he wrote to me that he has now attended 752 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: many drag performances of different episodes of the show, some 753 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: of which include this episode, and he's always pleasantly surprised 754 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: when Scott, his husband of thirty nine years, can't wait 755 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: to tell a new gay acquaintance that he Jeffrey wrote 756 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: the first gay Golden Girls episode, and they immediately know 757 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: which one, and they. 758 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 2: Respond with not Lebanese blanche lesbian. 759 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 3: Oh that is such a nice story. I love this story. Okay, 760 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 3: that feels like a good place to end it for today. 761 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: But jess what do we have coming up in part two? 762 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 763 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: Part two is going to look at how queerness has 764 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: been sneakily written into TV for decades, but also where 765 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: that Lebanese lesbian joke is today? 766 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 3: I can't wait. This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 767 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 3: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 768 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 3: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 769 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 3: Email us at in retropod at gmail dot com or 770 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 3: find us on Instagram at retropod. 771 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 772 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 773 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 774 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 775 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 3: You can also find this on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 776 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 3: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 777 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 3: Feminist Fi Club and This Is eighteen. 778 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 2: In Retrospect is. 779 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 3: A production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 780 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 2: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. 781 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: Derek Clements is our engineer and sound designer Emily Meronoff 782 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: is our producer. Sharan Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 783 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 3: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 784 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 3: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 785 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 3: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing heills from Mary 786 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 3: do Our mixing engineer is Amanda Rose Smith. We are 787 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 3: your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett. 788 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: We are also executive producers for even more check out 789 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: inretropod dot com. 790 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 2: See you next week.