WEBVTT - Episode 7: “Killer Confrontation” 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.920 A warning about this episode. It contained sexually violent, offensive, 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:09.800 extremely graphic language, yet vital to include when exploring the 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:30.680 facts of both Shawnas and Dana's cases. Grass is not 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:32.720 cut No one's around. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:35.240 But give it a shot. 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:36.600 See what he has to say. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.159 Jack Lenny is still a strong person of interest for 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:47.640 the murders of both Dana'stidham and Shawna. Garber I determined 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.400 the best way to approach him was a cold call, 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.720 a surprise knock on his door. Try to catch the 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.400 guy by surprise off his game. See if I can 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.800 tell who we he is before he can put up 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:09.560 a front to disguise himself. Today, Lenny lives in a 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.399 suburban neighborhood, each cookie cutter house like the one before it. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.040 The town where he lives, which I am choosing not 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.280 to name, is between Belavis to Arkansas and Anderson, Missouri. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.520 During the time of Dana's murder, he was living in Bentonville, Arkansas, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.600 just a few miles from Dana's home, workplace, and where 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.560 Dana's body was found. He then moved to a different county, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:38.039 just thirty five miles from Pineville, where Shawna's body was found. 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.000 The houses around Lennie's were well kept yards well maintained, 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.760 that is, all of them except for Linny's. In fact, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.720 it appeared as though he'd abandon yard work and any 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:54.440 type of upkeep long ago. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.080 Sheets are drawn and haler on the ground. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.040 I stood for a while on his front steps and waited. 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.320 He was either not home or not answering. The windows, 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:18.800 quite strangely, were covered from the inside with newspaper, every 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:20.840 single one of them. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:22.280 No one seems to be home. 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.200 With multiple daily newspapers left on the doorstep, wet and moldy, 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.040 I got a sense that no one had been home 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.120 in quite some time. I checked the garbage bin and 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.720 it hadn't been used for a while. Other than helping 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.720 me paint a mental picture of this guy, I struck 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.480 out this time. My surprise visit didn't yield the results 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.360 I'd hope for, but I could now begin calling Lenny 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.840 to see what he had to say and find out 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.320 if he'd even talk to me. I sensed he was 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.400 the type of guy who needed to explain himself, so 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:02.160 I was hopeful this. As the deeper I looked at Lenny, 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.320 the more evidence I found point to his alleged involvement 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:20.000 in two thirty plus year old cold murder cases previously 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:21.760 on Paper Ghosts. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.079 He said, we're going to start playing. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.560 Chess by mail, and he said, don't cheat. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.600 I thought, were what dare you? A serial killer? 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:33.520 Moralized to be? 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.720 There was probably like seventeen different types of twine that. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.560 Were used to cocoon this young lady after. 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.000 She had been murdered. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.880 It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:48.240 None of them are impossible. 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:50.360 It was impossible and probably self trying. 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.120 But this is going to be solved, and it will be. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.920 My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.040 and author of more than forty true crime books. This 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:14.680 season four of Paper Ghosts, the ozarks law enforcement studies 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.920 on cold casework have shown that the passage of time 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:23.120 can pose a serious threat to recall accuracy. In other words, 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.679 a witness's memory might produce inaccuracies because of the time 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.240 between the crime and the account provided to law enforcement. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:37.280 This is why documentation, recorded interviews, and information gathered near 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.680 the time of the crime in real time becomes so 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:46.120 utterly vital to cold case investigation. At the end of 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.599 the last episode, you heard a prosecutor talk about evidence 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.159 found in Jacquelinese house during a search warrant over a 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:58.440 year after Dana's murder, spools of various ropes, cable and wire. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:04.159 That search also uncovered some rather alarming forensic evidence, which 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.680 we're about to unpack in this episode. Before that, however, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.159 I'd like to go back and look at two specific 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:19.040 significant events leading up to the execution of those warrants. First, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.520 there was a disturbing phone call, unlike any of the 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:27.120 past calls you've heard that the BCSO thought might possibly 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.400 be connected to Dana Stidham's case. This call, which is 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.160 violent in content, made just after Dana went missing, felt 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:41.320 very significant and perhaps even an indication of things to come. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.359 Hello, this is understand. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.120 You're having an auction to raise money. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:52.039 Yes, that in PST the money for but we're trying 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.720 to raise money for the Stidham family. We hoped to 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.320 be able to raise enough money to help the family 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.440 out and start a reward fund. That money help us 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.560 find who killed Damis Didham? 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.280 Are you finding to get involved in something like this? 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:06.280 No? 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.560 Not really, you should be Why is that? 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.480 How do you like men to cut your t's off? 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.960 Terrified, the woman immediately hung up the phone. A second 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.000 call came in some time later. 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:22.200 Hello. 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.599 The caller alluded once again to the reward money, but 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.000 he was hard to understand. The woman was certain, however, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.640 she was speaking to the same person. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:34.960 Who is this? 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.200 Listen, bitch, I'm gonna stick my knife in you. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:40.719 Hey, you know where I'm at. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.320 She hung up the phone. A third call came in 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:46.320 soon after. 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:49.800 You know what I'm going to do to you. You 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.320 have to be really hard. I'm going you so hard 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.480 you'll think my is gonna come out of your throat. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.440 I cannot be waiting to show you. Oh listen, interest, 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.359 did you hear me? And you because you better listen? 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.799 God damn life, you and I'll never. 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:07.440 Find you. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.720 This time. He hung up the phone. You might be 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.680 wondering why these calls happened to be recorded, and that's 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.920 because the calls had been made to the tip line 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:25.400 set up for Dana's investigation. The woman called the BCSO 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:30.840 immediately after the third call. The BCSO interviewed right away. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.440 Journalist Brandon Howard spoke with me about those disturbing calls 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:36.239 you just heard. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.800 I understand it was a family friend and worked at 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.920 the post office, which was really a caddy corner to 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.280 the grocery store with Dana work. You could ask it 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.600 from the same parking lot. 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.280 The frightening part of Brandon's comment is that it's entirely 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.240 possible the caller was watching the woman from a payphone 0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:03.040 overlooking the post office in the parking lot of Phillip's Grocery. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.800 These calls were different from the previous ones explored throughout 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.040 the investigation, not only in context, but in how threatening 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:16.400 and serious they seemed. Violence was part of the caller's objective, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:22.320 as was trying to instill fear and intimidate certain individuals 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.200 connected to Dana's case. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.840 Yeah, I think the phone call significant because it doesn't 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.640 seem like a typical phone call to the prank, which 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.280 I'm sure there were probably phone calls that were frames 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.680 involved in Dana's case. I think that's probably typical of 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.320 any case like this. But this is repeated phone calls 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.800 that I would argue grow more disturbing, and they are 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.480 pretty specific and the type of threats the caller delivers. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.600 I asked Brandon for his insights about the caller. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.400 First thought was that it escalated from zero to one hundred, 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.679 like really quickly, seemingly in just a handful of phone 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.760 calls too. If you're comparing this to another suspect in 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.000 the case, possibly a high school classmate of Danas, it 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.720 doesn't seem like something a high schooler would do. And 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.440 to have an addendum to that, if there is the 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.880 possibility that he made a phone call to another woman 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.080 later in life, it doesn't seem to fit. Somewhat of 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:27.360 a jovial, not disturbing, sexual conversation he had with another woman, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.200 nothing like this where there were threats of bodily armed 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.319 in escalation to violence. And the third part about it 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.319 is the phone call was paired with a voice lineup 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.120 and the woman post office selected a voice of a 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.200 suspect who later emerged the Dana's case that I think 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.400 is probably the best suspect of the group. 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.320 During the woman's interview with BCSO detectives, they played a 0:09:54.400 --> 0:10:01.000 voice lineup six different voices of six different men. Within 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:05.560 those six men was Jack Lenny's voice from that first 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:11.480 interview that BCSO had conducted with them. She immediately picked 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.800 Lenny's voice out of the lineup. This call also points 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.880 us away from the bcso's early target, Mike McMillan, because 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.040 whoever called into this tip line would have had access 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:29.160 to local information in order to know certain details. And 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.960 so the other part of it is, and you made 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:37.360 this point, which I think is very, very valid, it's 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.520 hard to believe that it could be Mike McMillan because 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.280 what do you have access to the daily record, right, 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:48.560 or even get that information from family and make the 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:49.840 call exactly. 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.400 Yeah, the more I thought about that, to place the 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.559 context of the nineteen eighty nine phone calls, he would 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.080 have to have access to the daily newspaper in the area. 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.600 There was no Internet, social media, any of things that 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:01.640 we take for granted now. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.040 Mike McMillan was not even in the state when the 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:09.040 calls were made into the tip line, which completely excludes 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:13.360 him as a potential source. And here's the thing about 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.320 Jack Linney's voice I need to underscore. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.440 She selected this voice, which I hate to say feather 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.679 in the cat, but stood out to me at least 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.840 because had a very unique speaking style, the result of 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:31.079 a bad accident that lets him with some brain damage, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.520 so he had a slur list type of voice. And 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.560 I thought that really stood out because it would seem 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.280 like something somebody would remember from a phone call and 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.920 then they heard back again, they'd be more likely to choose. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:57.400 It to focus on Jack Lenny as a person of 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:02.080 interest in Dana Didham's murder, and fievably, Shauna Garber's went 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:06.640 from intense to laser focused in nineteen ninety three after 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:11.080 he was picked out of that voice lineup. Another fact 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.440 leading to the search warrants on Lenny's home and vehicle 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.079 was a second interview, which was more of an interrogation. 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.400 If you recall, the first Jack Lenney interview was rather 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.160 light handed and conducted during the information gathering phase of 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:32.800 the investigation. This second interview was more strategically designed to 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.000 get him to maybe admit to his possible role in 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.760 Dana's murder and start heading in the direction of positioning 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:47.760 him as potentially being involved in SHAWNA. Garber's Unfortunately, I 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.440 could not locate a recording of this second interview, but 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:56.640 was able to find a copy of a complete transcript. Additionally, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.400 while I was in Bentonville, Arkansas, I met with someone 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.560 you heard at the end of the previous episode, the 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.240 former prosecutor who was part of the team interviewing Lenny 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.079 that second time. If I couldn't hear the interview myself. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.760 The next best thing was to talk to someone. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.240 Who was in the room. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:18.200 And so you are. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.960 Drew Miller right now, just said attorney in private practice. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.439 So you're coming to me because I was a deputy 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:29.400 prosecuting attorney and the chief Deputy prosecuting Attorney in the 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:35.000 Benton County Prosecutor's Office September ninety one until January of 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:35.800 ninety five. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.160 Drew has this Southern charm abottom that is hard not 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.960 to like. He works out of a sprawling office located 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:50.080 inside a Gothic style building reminiscent of a fifteenth century church. 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.680 Drew oversaw the Prosecutor's Office in Benton County and was 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.720 present for the search warrants and second longer interview the 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:03.960 BCSO conducted with Jack Lenny in nineteen ninety three. One 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.040 thing he cleared up for me was how the BCSO 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.200 had latched onto Lenny. Back in the first episode, I 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.560 talked about a man seen talking to Dana in the 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.200 parking lot of the Phillips. One report had the two 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.880 of them apparently arguing the guy who was with Dana 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:27.120 matched Lenny's description, and more importantly, when confronted about whether 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.440 he was in the parking lot on that July twenty 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:35.440 fifth afternoon, the last time Dana was seen, Lenny said, quote, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:37.640 she might have even talked to me. 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.360 So I think my recollection he was identified early on, 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.760 and then he surfaced again, maybe just to do due 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.400 diligence and making sure that they were going back to 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.880 reinterview everybody. But it seemed to me that when we 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:59.040 talked to this individual that there was some independent evidence 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.120 that they had found. I think they had found maybe 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.440 some maps or something that had come up that were 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.200 maybe in his vehicle, or that he had given them 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.320 or given somebody that had some locations of not only 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.400 where close proximity where Dana had disappeared, but some close 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:22.800 proximity where other individual unsolved murders had appeared, generally the 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.960 same type of criteria, female age, anywhere from twenty to 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:32.760 thirty five, And they had some confidence even before he 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.160 was interviewed, but they felt like that he was a 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:41.760 strong lead. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.400 In an earlier episode, I mentioned those maps which were 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.680 found in Lenny's vehicle and had the locations in town 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.560 clearly marked where Dana had visited or had been seen 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.640 on the day she disappeared, Why in the hell with 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:05.520 Jack Lenny maps marked with that sort of information. Here's 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.320 journalists Brandon Howard. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.360 He reportedly had several maps of Bellavista in his vehicle 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.880 that he initially said belonged to the newspaper, but detectives 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:18.960 were concerned because he had markings on the maps that 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.360 included the spot where Dana's car was found and the 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.960 grocery store where she worked at. He tries to pass 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.760 that off as that's the location where newspapers might be built, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.360 but they have questions about that, since why would a 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.400 newspaper to be built on the side of the highway 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.240 or at a grocery store. He has no solid answer 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.560 to that response. He also has a bizarre outburst that 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.320 he has no idea about the Stideam homicide, seemingly in 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.240 an unrelated question that bears little to any relevation about 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:46.680 our case. 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.640 He just, you know, red flags all over the place 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.240 with this guy. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.480 Yes, I don't need to laugh. Yeah, red flags. It's shocking. 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.400 I mean, if I was to check the box of 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.960 predator or deviant, this guy checks several of those boxes. 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.280 I mean, showing up at a store with a scheme, mask. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.960 On, telling the women you're horny as Hill. It's very 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.879 bizarre waiting for them in the parking lot, mentioning he 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.879 gave detailed answers about Dana's case, referred to her as 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.399 a really good looking person. That saddened him that people 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.919 like that are killed, never the ugly ones. In addition 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.560 to that, he mentions unprompted that Dana had might have 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.919 had a low tire which could have prompted him to 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.600 pull her over, but that wasn't mentioned by detectives in 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.639 the interview. It was public knowledge but not mentioned by 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:31.600 the textives in the interview. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.800 The plan during this second interview with Lenny was to 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:40.199 get him under oath to explain the circumstances, pointing the 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:45.040 BCSO in his direction. You heard the first interview, which 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.959 was very much an avenue for the BCSO to let 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:53.040 Lenny know they were coming after him. During that second interview, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:59.040 Prosecutor Drew Miller explained Lenny rang several alarm bells without 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:03.359 ever being prompted, starting with agreeing to the interview in 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:04.119 the first place. 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.280 They were wanting to pin him down, very surprised that 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.760 he wanted to come in. You know, my initial reaction is, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.440 you know, this guy's coming in. Surely he's not the guy, right, 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:21.920 I mean, who does that? But the interview was everything 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.119 can be considered unusual, but from my perspective, it was 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.280 it was almost like he definitely wasn't afraid. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.719 The interview was conducted mostly by Danny Varner. Lenny, forty 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.400 six years old at the time, was cocky and smarmy, 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:44.080 answering questions in a sarcastic manner, as if he was 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.200 taunting law enforcement. 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.040 I got the feeling during some course of that interview, 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.800 if Danny had the legal ability to wrap his hands 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.520 around his neck, he would have wrapped his hands around 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.520 his neck. But he he maintained it was just an 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.920 interesting interview because as I'm listen listening to him, it's 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.240 just not like I'm sure he denied it, but it 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.400 just really wasn't like he denied it, you know, It's 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.679 just like he just wanted to continue the conversation. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.639 What law enforcement found unquestionably disturbing, not to mention revealing, 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:19.720 was that Lenny himself brought the subject of Dana Stidham up. 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.119 It's just as I sat there in the interview, my 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.159 feelings changed to I know something is going on with 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.320 this guy. I don't know what it is. I'm not 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.359 a doctor, I'm not a psychologist. I'm just trying to 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.879 get a read. But there was just something that was 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:36.560 clinically off. 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.640 At one point, while referring to Dana, Lenny says, quote, 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.919 she was real good looking, and that's one of the 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.359 big things that always ticked me off. They always killed 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.320 the good looking once. They don't ever kill the old, fat, 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:59.000 ugly hog end quote. It's a shaming, demeaning, and humiliating 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:04.320 way to view women, especially when you're being questioned about 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.600 the murder of the young woman you are talking about. 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.719 Yeah, again, that would be a typical example, like in 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.320 some aspects, really incriminating, right if he says it the 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.600 right way or or the wrong way. But as you're 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.280 going for he says a lot of that stuff and 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.760 you're just going, why would he even go there? 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.520 At one point, they pressed him about prior arrests, and 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.960 he mentioned a concealed weapon charge and also being accused 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.400 of stealing a police officer's gun. In an earlier episode, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.320 we discussed the report from a witness claiming to have 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:45.000 seen Dana's carr being followed by a station wagon. At 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.240 the time, Lenny owned a station wagon fitting the description 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:55.200 which had been searched the week before this second interview. Inside, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.359 they found blood on the front passenger seat, floorboard, carpets 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:06.240 on the backseat, along with several female hairs. So two 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:07.240 and two make four. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.480 Again. At the time, I thought that there was enough 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:12.680 evidence to piece things together. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.160 Next, Drew makeson a stoope point about motive, placing Lenny 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:22.000 into a very distinct, rare category of murderers, which begins 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.160 to point at him as a serious person of interest 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.760 in SHAWNA. Garber's murder as well, or at the least 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.240 someone who needs to be excluded. 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.280 Well, that's the problem with a serial killer, because number 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.880 one is motive, and with a serial killer, you don't 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.840 really have motive. And this, at least based on it's 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.080 the perception at the time and probably the perception now, 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.800 is it was a serial killer. Could have been somebody 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.040 that she known, but somebody that had done this before, 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.240 or there potentially was no way to string them together 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.280 individually as far as motive. 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:55.880 So then the. 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:00.520 Next thing you need to prove his opportunity, and and 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:05.400 that's a tricky one because obviously the opportunity potentially existed, 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:07.720 but the longer a case goes on, you know, it's 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.320 very it's very difficult to prove that opportunity. 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.720 The BCSO had already proved Lenny had the opportunity, was 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.720 in the area at the time and had no alibi 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.560 for that night. Furthermore, they spoke to his then wife 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.960 who said he would leave home for days at a 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.000 time and she had no idea where he was or 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:30.960 where he had gone. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.320 And then you get to the intent issue, and the 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.439 intent with regard to a serial killer is that is 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:38.960 just that. So it's almost like with a serial killer, 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.080 you got to you kind of got to build the bodies, 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:43.199 you know, I mean that's the worst part of it. 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.520 You got to connect as opposed to connecting the dots, 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.480 you got to connect the bodies. And so it's it's difficult, 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.399 I mean there because the number one thing that is 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.320 good in any kind of murder case is the motive, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.159 and you really don't have it right, at least you 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.680 can't connect it right. So that's what that's what makes 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:02.440 these kind of difficult. 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:07.560 A serial killer acts with impunity. Their number one motive 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.320 for killing is for the fun of it. Drew Miller's 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.840 point is incredibly valid. To catch a serial killer, it's 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.359 imperative to find a connection among his victims, which often 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:27.240 leads to evidence and simultaneously additional victims. And so over 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:29.400 the course of time, how did it progress with him? 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.000 I don't know how long. I mean, I definitely know 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.480 Sedoriac he had a passion for it, and Barner had 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:37.680 a passion for it. And it's just like anything else, 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.040 just like any occupation, you know, the people that have 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:42.560 passion for it continue the fire when they when they're 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.120 not there to fan it is going to die. And 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.680 so that's why people that do cold cases, it's really 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.520 hard for them because they have to they have to 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.800 build that desire, you know, and they have to build 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:55.679 it from scratch. And some are really good at it, 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:57.480 you know. Some of them, you know, open the box 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.840 and they're they're all there. Some it takes away, I mean, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:02.480 but if you like, what are you going to do? 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.000 Hand a young detective a thirty year old case and 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:07.520 say go investigate this, He's like, oh, Mike, what am 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:08.720 I going to be doing for the rest. 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:09.080 Of my life? 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:11.760 You know. So it's it's just a different it's just 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:13.000 a different situation, for. 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:17.399 Sure, Such an important comment, and one I think victims' 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:22.840 families need to hear investigators involved in a particular case 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:29.200 for ten, twenty, even thirty years ultimately retire, the new 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:33.359 team comes in and they lock onto another case, contemporary 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.880 or otherwise cold cases get put on a back burner, 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.920 not for any nefarious or personal reasons. It's just how 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:45.119 the system is designed. The squeaky wheels get the oil, 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:49.439 which is why it's so vital for victims' families to 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.320 keep whispering in the ears of law enforcement about their 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:58.359 cases without making accusations or becoming too bothersome or an annoyance. 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:04.159 I do understand how difficult a task this can become, 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:09.800