1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: A warning about this episode. It contained sexually violent, offensive, 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: extremely graphic language, yet vital to include when exploring the 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: facts of both Shawnas and Dana's cases. Grass is not 4 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: cut No one's around. 5 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: But give it a shot. 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 3: See what he has to say. 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: Jack Lenny is still a strong person of interest for 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: the murders of both Dana'stidham and Shawna. Garber I determined 9 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: the best way to approach him was a cold call, 10 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: a surprise knock on his door. Try to catch the 11 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: guy by surprise off his game. See if I can 12 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: tell who we he is before he can put up 13 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: a front to disguise himself. Today, Lenny lives in a 14 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: suburban neighborhood, each cookie cutter house like the one before it. 15 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: The town where he lives, which I am choosing not 16 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: to name, is between Belavis to Arkansas and Anderson, Missouri. 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: During the time of Dana's murder, he was living in Bentonville, Arkansas, 18 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: just a few miles from Dana's home, workplace, and where 19 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: Dana's body was found. He then moved to a different county, 20 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: just thirty five miles from Pineville, where Shawna's body was found. 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: The houses around Lennie's were well kept yards well maintained, 22 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: that is, all of them except for Linny's. In fact, 23 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: it appeared as though he'd abandon yard work and any 24 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: type of upkeep long ago. 25 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 4: Sheets are drawn and haler on the ground. 26 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: I stood for a while on his front steps and waited. 27 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: He was either not home or not answering. The windows, 28 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: quite strangely, were covered from the inside with newspaper, every 29 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: single one of them. 30 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: No one seems to be home. 31 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: With multiple daily newspapers left on the doorstep, wet and moldy, 32 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: I got a sense that no one had been home 33 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: in quite some time. I checked the garbage bin and 34 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: it hadn't been used for a while. Other than helping 35 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: me paint a mental picture of this guy, I struck 36 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: out this time. My surprise visit didn't yield the results 37 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: I'd hope for, but I could now begin calling Lenny 38 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: to see what he had to say and find out 39 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: if he'd even talk to me. I sensed he was 40 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: the type of guy who needed to explain himself, so 41 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: I was hopeful this. As the deeper I looked at Lenny, 42 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: the more evidence I found point to his alleged involvement 43 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: in two thirty plus year old cold murder cases previously 44 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: on Paper Ghosts. 45 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 5: He said, we're going to start playing. 46 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 6: Chess by mail, and he said, don't cheat. 47 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 7: I thought, were what dare you? A serial killer? 48 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 8: Moralized to be? 49 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 4: There was probably like seventeen different types of twine that. 50 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: Were used to cocoon this young lady after. 51 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 9: She had been murdered. 52 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. 53 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: None of them are impossible. 54 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: It was impossible and probably self trying. 55 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 3: But this is going to be solved, and it will be. 56 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 57 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime books. This 58 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: season four of Paper Ghosts, the ozarks law enforcement studies 59 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: on cold casework have shown that the passage of time 60 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: can pose a serious threat to recall accuracy. In other words, 61 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 1: a witness's memory might produce inaccuracies because of the time 62 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: between the crime and the account provided to law enforcement. 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: This is why documentation, recorded interviews, and information gathered near 64 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: the time of the crime in real time becomes so 65 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: utterly vital to cold case investigation. At the end of 66 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: the last episode, you heard a prosecutor talk about evidence 67 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: found in Jacquelinese house during a search warrant over a 68 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: year after Dana's murder, spools of various ropes, cable and wire. 69 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: That search also uncovered some rather alarming forensic evidence, which 70 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: we're about to unpack in this episode. Before that, however, 71 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: I'd like to go back and look at two specific 72 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: significant events leading up to the execution of those warrants. First, 73 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: there was a disturbing phone call, unlike any of the 74 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: past calls you've heard that the BCSO thought might possibly 75 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: be connected to Dana Stidham's case. This call, which is 76 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: violent in content, made just after Dana went missing, felt 77 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: very significant and perhaps even an indication of things to come. 78 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 10: Hello, this is understand. 79 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 5: You're having an auction to raise money. 80 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 10: Yes, that in PST the money for but we're trying 81 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 10: to raise money for the Stidham family. We hoped to 82 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 10: be able to raise enough money to help the family 83 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 10: out and start a reward fund. That money help us 84 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 10: find who killed Damis Didham? 85 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 5: Are you finding to get involved in something like this? 86 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 11: No? 87 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 10: Not really, you should be Why is that? 88 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 5: How do you like men to cut your t's off? 89 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: Terrified, the woman immediately hung up the phone. A second 90 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: call came in some time later. 91 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 4: Hello. 92 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: The caller alluded once again to the reward money, but 93 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: he was hard to understand. The woman was certain, however, 94 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: she was speaking to the same person. 95 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 10: Who is this? 96 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 5: Listen, bitch, I'm gonna stick my knife in you. 97 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 12: Hey, you know where I'm at. 98 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: She hung up the phone. A third call came in 99 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: soon after. 100 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 5: You know what I'm going to do to you. You 101 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 5: have to be really hard. I'm going you so hard 102 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 5: you'll think my is gonna come out of your throat. 103 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 5: I cannot be waiting to show you. Oh listen, interest, 104 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 5: did you hear me? And you because you better listen? 105 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 5: God damn life, you and I'll never. 106 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: Find you. 107 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: This time. He hung up the phone. You might be 108 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: wondering why these calls happened to be recorded, and that's 109 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: because the calls had been made to the tip line 110 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: set up for Dana's investigation. The woman called the BCSO 111 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: immediately after the third call. The BCSO interviewed right away. 112 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Journalist Brandon Howard spoke with me about those disturbing calls 113 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: you just heard. 114 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 7: I understand it was a family friend and worked at 115 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 7: the post office, which was really a caddy corner to 116 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 7: the grocery store with Dana work. You could ask it 117 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 7: from the same parking lot. 118 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: The frightening part of Brandon's comment is that it's entirely 119 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: possible the caller was watching the woman from a payphone 120 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: overlooking the post office in the parking lot of Phillip's Grocery. 121 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: These calls were different from the previous ones explored throughout 122 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: the investigation, not only in context, but in how threatening 123 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: and serious they seemed. Violence was part of the caller's objective, 124 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: as was trying to instill fear and intimidate certain individuals 125 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: connected to Dana's case. 126 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think the phone call significant because it doesn't 127 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 7: seem like a typical phone call to the prank, which 128 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 7: I'm sure there were probably phone calls that were frames 129 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 7: involved in Dana's case. I think that's probably typical of 130 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 7: any case like this. But this is repeated phone calls 131 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 7: that I would argue grow more disturbing, and they are 132 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 7: pretty specific and the type of threats the caller delivers. 133 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: I asked Brandon for his insights about the caller. 134 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 7: First thought was that it escalated from zero to one hundred, 135 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 7: like really quickly, seemingly in just a handful of phone 136 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 7: calls too. If you're comparing this to another suspect in 137 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 7: the case, possibly a high school classmate of Danas, it 138 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 7: doesn't seem like something a high schooler would do. And 139 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 7: to have an addendum to that, if there is the 140 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 7: possibility that he made a phone call to another woman 141 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 7: later in life, it doesn't seem to fit. Somewhat of 142 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 7: a jovial, not disturbing, sexual conversation he had with another woman, 143 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 7: nothing like this where there were threats of bodily armed 144 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 7: in escalation to violence. And the third part about it 145 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 7: is the phone call was paired with a voice lineup 146 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 7: and the woman post office selected a voice of a 147 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 7: suspect who later emerged the Dana's case that I think 148 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 7: is probably the best suspect of the group. 149 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: During the woman's interview with BCSO detectives, they played a 150 00:09:54,400 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: voice lineup six different voices of six different men. Within 151 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: those six men was Jack Lenny's voice from that first 152 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: interview that BCSO had conducted with them. She immediately picked 153 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: Lenny's voice out of the lineup. This call also points 154 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: us away from the bcso's early target, Mike McMillan, because 155 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: whoever called into this tip line would have had access 156 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: to local information in order to know certain details. And 157 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: so the other part of it is, and you made 158 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: this point, which I think is very, very valid, it's 159 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: hard to believe that it could be Mike McMillan because 160 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: what do you have access to the daily record, right, 161 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: or even get that information from family and make the 162 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: call exactly. 163 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 7: Yeah, the more I thought about that, to place the 164 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 7: context of the nineteen eighty nine phone calls, he would 165 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 7: have to have access to the daily newspaper in the area. 166 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 7: There was no Internet, social media, any of things that 167 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 7: we take for granted now. 168 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: Mike McMillan was not even in the state when the 169 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: calls were made into the tip line, which completely excludes 170 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: him as a potential source. And here's the thing about 171 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: Jack Linney's voice I need to underscore. 172 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 7: She selected this voice, which I hate to say feather 173 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 7: in the cat, but stood out to me at least 174 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 7: because had a very unique speaking style, the result of 175 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 7: a bad accident that lets him with some brain damage, 176 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 7: so he had a slur list type of voice. And 177 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 7: I thought that really stood out because it would seem 178 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 7: like something somebody would remember from a phone call and 179 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 7: then they heard back again, they'd be more likely to choose. 180 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: It to focus on Jack Lenny as a person of 181 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: interest in Dana Didham's murder, and fievably, Shauna Garber's went 182 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: from intense to laser focused in nineteen ninety three after 183 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: he was picked out of that voice lineup. Another fact 184 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: leading to the search warrants on Lenny's home and vehicle 185 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: was a second interview, which was more of an interrogation. 186 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: If you recall, the first Jack Lenney interview was rather 187 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: light handed and conducted during the information gathering phase of 188 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: the investigation. This second interview was more strategically designed to 189 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: get him to maybe admit to his possible role in 190 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: Dana's murder and start heading in the direction of positioning 191 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: him as potentially being involved in SHAWNA. Garber's Unfortunately, I 192 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: could not locate a recording of this second interview, but 193 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: was able to find a copy of a complete transcript. Additionally, 194 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: while I was in Bentonville, Arkansas, I met with someone 195 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: you heard at the end of the previous episode, the 196 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: former prosecutor who was part of the team interviewing Lenny 197 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: that second time. If I couldn't hear the interview myself. 198 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: The next best thing was to talk to someone. 199 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: Who was in the room. 200 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: And so you are. 201 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 4: Drew Miller right now, just said attorney in private practice. 202 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 4: So you're coming to me because I was a deputy 203 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 4: prosecuting attorney and the chief Deputy prosecuting Attorney in the 204 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 4: Benton County Prosecutor's Office September ninety one until January of 205 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 4: ninety five. 206 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: Drew has this Southern charm abottom that is hard not 207 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: to like. He works out of a sprawling office located 208 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: inside a Gothic style building reminiscent of a fifteenth century church. 209 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: Drew oversaw the Prosecutor's Office in Benton County and was 210 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: present for the search warrants and second longer interview the 211 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: BCSO conducted with Jack Lenny in nineteen ninety three. One 212 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: thing he cleared up for me was how the BCSO 213 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: had latched onto Lenny. Back in the first episode, I 214 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: talked about a man seen talking to Dana in the 215 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: parking lot of the Phillips. One report had the two 216 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: of them apparently arguing the guy who was with Dana 217 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: matched Lenny's description, and more importantly, when confronted about whether 218 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: he was in the parking lot on that July twenty 219 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: fifth afternoon, the last time Dana was seen, Lenny said, quote, 220 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: she might have even talked to me. 221 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 4: So I think my recollection he was identified early on, 222 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 4: and then he surfaced again, maybe just to do due 223 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 4: diligence and making sure that they were going back to 224 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: reinterview everybody. But it seemed to me that when we 225 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 4: talked to this individual that there was some independent evidence 226 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 4: that they had found. I think they had found maybe 227 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 4: some maps or something that had come up that were 228 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 4: maybe in his vehicle, or that he had given them 229 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 4: or given somebody that had some locations of not only 230 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: where close proximity where Dana had disappeared, but some close 231 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: proximity where other individual unsolved murders had appeared, generally the 232 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 4: same type of criteria, female age, anywhere from twenty to 233 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 4: thirty five, And they had some confidence even before he 234 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 4: was interviewed, but they felt like that he was a 235 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 4: strong lead. 236 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: In an earlier episode, I mentioned those maps which were 237 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: found in Lenny's vehicle and had the locations in town 238 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: clearly marked where Dana had visited or had been seen 239 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: on the day she disappeared, Why in the hell with 240 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: Jack Lenny maps marked with that sort of information. Here's 241 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: journalists Brandon Howard. 242 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 11: He reportedly had several maps of Bellavista in his vehicle 243 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 11: that he initially said belonged to the newspaper, but detectives 244 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 11: were concerned because he had markings on the maps that 245 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 11: included the spot where Dana's car was found and the 246 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 11: grocery store where she worked at. He tries to pass 247 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 11: that off as that's the location where newspapers might be built, 248 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 11: but they have questions about that, since why would a 249 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 11: newspaper to be built on the side of the highway 250 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 11: or at a grocery store. He has no solid answer 251 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 11: to that response. He also has a bizarre outburst that 252 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 11: he has no idea about the Stideam homicide, seemingly in 253 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 11: an unrelated question that bears little to any relevation about 254 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 11: our case. 255 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: He just, you know, red flags all over the place 256 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: with this guy. 257 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 11: Yes, I don't need to laugh. Yeah, red flags. It's shocking. 258 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 11: I mean, if I was to check the box of 259 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 11: predator or deviant, this guy checks several of those boxes. 260 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: I mean, showing up at a store with a scheme, mask. 261 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 11: On, telling the women you're horny as Hill. It's very 262 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 11: bizarre waiting for them in the parking lot, mentioning he 263 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 11: gave detailed answers about Dana's case, referred to her as 264 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 11: a really good looking person. That saddened him that people 265 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 11: like that are killed, never the ugly ones. In addition 266 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 11: to that, he mentions unprompted that Dana had might have 267 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 11: had a low tire which could have prompted him to 268 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 11: pull her over, but that wasn't mentioned by detectives in 269 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 11: the interview. It was public knowledge but not mentioned by 270 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 11: the textives in the interview. 271 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: The plan during this second interview with Lenny was to 272 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: get him under oath to explain the circumstances, pointing the 273 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: BCSO in his direction. You heard the first interview, which 274 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: was very much an avenue for the BCSO to let 275 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: Lenny know they were coming after him. During that second interview, 276 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Drew Miller explained Lenny rang several alarm bells without 277 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: ever being prompted, starting with agreeing to the interview in 278 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: the first place. 279 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 4: They were wanting to pin him down, very surprised that 280 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 4: he wanted to come in. You know, my initial reaction is, 281 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 4: you know, this guy's coming in. Surely he's not the guy, right, 282 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 4: I mean, who does that? But the interview was everything 283 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 4: can be considered unusual, but from my perspective, it was 284 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 4: it was almost like he definitely wasn't afraid. 285 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 1: The interview was conducted mostly by Danny Varner. Lenny, forty 286 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: six years old at the time, was cocky and smarmy, 287 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: answering questions in a sarcastic manner, as if he was 288 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: taunting law enforcement. 289 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 4: I got the feeling during some course of that interview, 290 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 4: if Danny had the legal ability to wrap his hands 291 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 4: around his neck, he would have wrapped his hands around 292 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 4: his neck. But he he maintained it was just an 293 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 4: interesting interview because as I'm listen listening to him, it's 294 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 4: just not like I'm sure he denied it, but it 295 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 4: just really wasn't like he denied it, you know, It's 296 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 4: just like he just wanted to continue the conversation. 297 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: What law enforcement found unquestionably disturbing, not to mention revealing, 298 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: was that Lenny himself brought the subject of Dana Stidham up. 299 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 4: It's just as I sat there in the interview, my 300 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 4: feelings changed to I know something is going on with 301 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 4: this guy. I don't know what it is. I'm not 302 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 4: a doctor, I'm not a psychologist. I'm just trying to 303 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 4: get a read. But there was just something that was 304 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: clinically off. 305 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: At one point, while referring to Dana, Lenny says, quote, 306 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: she was real good looking, and that's one of the 307 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: big things that always ticked me off. They always killed 308 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: the good looking once. They don't ever kill the old, fat, 309 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: ugly hog end quote. It's a shaming, demeaning, and humiliating 310 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: way to view women, especially when you're being questioned about 311 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: the murder of the young woman you are talking about. 312 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, again, that would be a typical example, like in 313 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 4: some aspects, really incriminating, right if he says it the 314 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 4: right way or or the wrong way. But as you're 315 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 4: going for he says a lot of that stuff and 316 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 4: you're just going, why would he even go there? 317 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: At one point, they pressed him about prior arrests, and 318 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: he mentioned a concealed weapon charge and also being accused 319 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: of stealing a police officer's gun. In an earlier episode, 320 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: we discussed the report from a witness claiming to have 321 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: seen Dana's carr being followed by a station wagon. At 322 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: the time, Lenny owned a station wagon fitting the description 323 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: which had been searched the week before this second interview. Inside, 324 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: they found blood on the front passenger seat, floorboard, carpets 325 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: on the backseat, along with several female hairs. So two 326 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: and two make four. 327 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 4: Again. At the time, I thought that there was enough 328 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 4: evidence to piece things together. 329 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: Next, Drew makeson a stoope point about motive, placing Lenny 330 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: into a very distinct, rare category of murderers, which begins 331 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: to point at him as a serious person of interest 332 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: in SHAWNA. Garber's murder as well, or at the least 333 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: someone who needs to be excluded. 334 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 4: Well, that's the problem with a serial killer, because number 335 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 4: one is motive, and with a serial killer, you don't 336 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 4: really have motive. And this, at least based on it's 337 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 4: the perception at the time and probably the perception now, 338 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 4: is it was a serial killer. Could have been somebody 339 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 4: that she known, but somebody that had done this before, 340 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: or there potentially was no way to string them together 341 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: individually as far as motive. 342 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 8: So then the. 343 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 4: Next thing you need to prove his opportunity, and and 344 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 4: that's a tricky one because obviously the opportunity potentially existed, 345 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: but the longer a case goes on, you know, it's 346 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 4: very it's very difficult to prove that opportunity. 347 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: The BCSO had already proved Lenny had the opportunity, was 348 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: in the area at the time and had no alibi 349 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: for that night. Furthermore, they spoke to his then wife 350 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: who said he would leave home for days at a 351 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: time and she had no idea where he was or 352 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: where he had gone. 353 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 4: And then you get to the intent issue, and the 354 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 4: intent with regard to a serial killer is that is 355 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 4: just that. So it's almost like with a serial killer, 356 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 4: you got to you kind of got to build the bodies, 357 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 4: you know, I mean that's the worst part of it. 358 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 4: You got to connect as opposed to connecting the dots, 359 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 4: you got to connect the bodies. And so it's it's difficult, 360 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 4: I mean there because the number one thing that is 361 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 4: good in any kind of murder case is the motive, 362 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 4: and you really don't have it right, at least you 363 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 4: can't connect it right. So that's what that's what makes 364 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 4: these kind of difficult. 365 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: A serial killer acts with impunity. Their number one motive 366 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: for killing is for the fun of it. Drew Miller's 367 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: point is incredibly valid. To catch a serial killer, it's 368 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: imperative to find a connection among his victims, which often 369 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: leads to evidence and simultaneously additional victims. And so over 370 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: the course of time, how did it progress with him? 371 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 4: I don't know how long. I mean, I definitely know 372 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 4: Sedoriac he had a passion for it, and Barner had 373 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 4: a passion for it. And it's just like anything else, 374 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: just like any occupation, you know, the people that have 375 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 4: passion for it continue the fire when they when they're 376 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 4: not there to fan it is going to die. And 377 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 4: so that's why people that do cold cases, it's really 378 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 4: hard for them because they have to they have to 379 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 4: build that desire, you know, and they have to build 380 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 4: it from scratch. And some are really good at it, 381 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 4: you know. Some of them, you know, open the box 382 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 4: and they're they're all there. Some it takes away, I mean, 383 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 4: but if you like, what are you going to do? 384 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: Hand a young detective a thirty year old case and 385 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 4: say go investigate this, He's like, oh, Mike, what am 386 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 4: I going to be doing for the rest. 387 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 5: Of my life? 388 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 4: You know. So it's it's just a different it's just 389 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: a different situation, for. 390 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: Sure, Such an important comment, and one I think victims' 391 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: families need to hear investigators involved in a particular case 392 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: for ten, twenty, even thirty years ultimately retire, the new 393 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: team comes in and they lock onto another case, contemporary 394 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: or otherwise cold cases get put on a back burner, 395 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: not for any nefarious or personal reasons. It's just how 396 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: the system is designed. The squeaky wheels get the oil, 397 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: which is why it's so vital for victims' families to 398 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: keep whispering in the ears of law enforcement about their 399 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: cases without making accusations or becoming too bothersome or an annoyance. 400 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: I do understand how difficult a task this can become, 401 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: how utterly painful, how gut wrenching and frustrating when there 402 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 1: are no answers and law enforcement is seemingly not responding. 403 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: But oftentimes it's a matter of logistics, budgets, and new 404 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: cases taking precedence even when everyone is doing their best. 405 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 4: With regard to this suspect, I'm confident that he was 406 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 4: watched in some sort of fashion. He was somewhat kept 407 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 4: track of. 408 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: During his second interview, as investigators really began to drill 409 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: down into him. Lenny clearly enjoyed playing cat and mouse, 410 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: a pattern of his I would soon learn firsthand myself. 411 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: In one instance, Detective Danny Varner asks him if he 412 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: drove a station wagon and a pickup truck. Lenny responds 413 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: rather smartly, only one at a time. Then they ask 414 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: which roads he favored driving, and if he ever drove 415 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: on River Road in Pineville, Missouri, which would have been 416 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: a convenient cut through heading toward where he lived in Missouri, 417 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: then this route would have taken him directly by the 418 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: area where Seanna Garber's body was dumped. He plays dumb, 419 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: saying maybe not sure, sometimes I think so. Then they 420 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: ask him about a Texas license plate he had and 421 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: if he ever used it. His bizarre response to that 422 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Stidham, about the Stidham homicide, 423 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: or anything else, makes you wonder how he made that 424 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: leap from being asked about a license plate to responding 425 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: with defensiveness about a murder investigation naming the actual victim. 426 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: My guess is that if he had used that license 427 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: plate on the night of Dena's abduction and murder, that 428 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: he could be trying to get in front of the evidence, 429 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: thinking maybe somebody had reported seeing a Texas license plate. 430 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: Would you call him smart? 431 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 4: I would not call myself smart. I don't call him 432 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 4: smart because I thought, I think this person did it, 433 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 4: and he was just allowed just he just was there 434 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 4: giving an interview. 435 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 3: That's what I mean. 436 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 12: It's like I couldn't figure him out. I just couldn't 437 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 12: figure him out. I would say, probably is one of 438 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 12: those people that, you know, this might be a characteristic. 439 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 12: Somebody might say if you ask in the parameters. 440 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: Or this characteristic, that he's smart. 441 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 4: I think, given a nuclear award, is one of those 442 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 4: guys that are going to survive, you know, And that's 443 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 4: smarter than of itself. So smart an intelligent way where 444 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 4: he can add numbers or write a poem. No, but 445 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 4: if it came to survival, maybe smarter than the emotions. 446 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: That makes sense. And it also sounds like you're going 447 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: down the psychology of a serial killer. 448 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was convinced. 449 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: Known as the adversarial model in law enforcement, AM is 450 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: an interrogation technique specifically used to obtain a confession. Investigators 451 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: apply high pressure tactics and close ended and suggestive questions, 452 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: which are purposely hurled at a suspect in order to 453 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: elicit a reaction. We've all seen this model on procedural 454 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: cop dramas and true crime shows. This was how BCSO 455 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: detectives Danny Varner and Mike Sedoriac, with then prosecutor Drew 456 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: Miller sitting in, went at Jack Lenny during that second interview, 457 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: hitting him hard with everything they had, the blood soaked 458 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: station wagon, truck with the camper, the fact that a 459 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: man fitting Lenny's description down to a ball cap he 460 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: admitted wearing that day was reported speaking to Dana, perhaps 461 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: even fighting with her in the parking lot of the Phillips. 462 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: Further into the interview, Lenny says, in response to allegations 463 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment against him, quote, well, if some people 464 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: want to take it wrong, they can complain if they 465 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: want to. From there, he admitted that he routinely pulled 466 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: over women on the road near the Phillips, had a 467 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: habit of picking up hitchhikers, new details about Dana's case 468 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: not released publicly. Later, when asked pointedly, quote maybe you 469 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: picked up old Dana and just things went downhill for her, 470 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: Lenny answered maybe. When asked for a hair sample, being 471 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: the cocky, smart asked he is, Lenny responded, next time 472 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: I go to the barber, I'll sit. I guess that 473 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: was a numb After being asked why he was driving 474 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: around with duct tape in his car, Lenny says, I 475 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: don't use it. And finally, after being asked, within the 476 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: context of Danu's murder, mind you if he ever sometimes 477 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: thought about killing people Jack, Lenny replied, yes, it. 478 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: Just it was an interesting interview. There was a scurry 479 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 4: of activity, as I recall, right after that interview with 480 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 4: regard to a young lady that had been found on 481 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 4: a porch and wrapped in cords, I participated in a 482 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 4: search worn up there, and that was of his parents' house. 483 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: That search of Lenny's mother's house yielded several interesting findings, 484 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: including two white ropes, some blue and white rope which 485 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: matched with the same rope used to bind Seanna Garber, 486 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: green and black army parachord, and two knives. And then 487 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: there was the interview with Lenny's ex wife, whose name 488 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: I am choosing not to use. From that interview, it's 489 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: clear that BCSO was in full pursuit of Lenny heading 490 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: down the road of an arrests. Warn remember law enforcement 491 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: recovered the contents of Dana's purse, but not the bag itself. 492 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: Lenny was said to have collected purses as strange as 493 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: that sounds, and one source claimed he kept his vast 494 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: collection of purses at his mother's house. As they get 495 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: into a conversation about Dana's purse with his ex wife, 496 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: an interesting exchange takes place. First, they describe what Dana's 497 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: purse looked like before, casually, as you can hear in 498 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: this exclusive recording, sliding a photo of a similar purse 499 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: across the table, that what had Geordia ash in front 500 00:31:59,440 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: of it? 501 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 3: Ever given you a first life. 502 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 13: Like that? 503 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 3: I've got a denim one. It's kind of a pouch, 504 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 3: denim purse or. 505 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 14: What actually, sus friender jeans? 506 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: Okay, what about any jewelry? Talking about remember if he 507 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: gave you any jewelry during that time? 508 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: Jewelry and silver? 509 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 8: I like silver jewelry. 510 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: No, did he ever find anything at that time? No 511 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: jewelry do you usually give to me? Because I like jewelry. 512 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: I got a bunch of it. I don't wear it 513 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: you know where. 514 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: But I like it. 515 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 3: I collected. 516 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: Then they touch on the seemingly endless number of sexual 517 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: harassment claims lodged against her ex husband, and how most 518 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: of the women working at Phillips were so scared of 519 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: the guy they had their husbands wait for them in 520 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: the parking lot after work because Lenny was out there 521 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: just just about every single day, stalking and even following 522 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: them home. Listen to how Detective Danny Varner explains it. 523 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 15: To go On. 524 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: I said, about five weeks ago, we started receiving another complaints. 525 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 16: From a check her at there in the Philip store, 526 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 16: and it got to the point that she had to 527 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 16: be walking to her father for. 528 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: Parking lot and she just get it. 529 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 16: Then two weeks ago this Friday, followed another girl that 530 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 16: works at Phillips's from Mettondale down bright Away Hill, like 531 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 16: that's just friends here anymore, if he will right down there, 532 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 16: coming back into Mela Vista and between there and Melo Vista, 533 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 16: he pulled up beside her and was hollering at her 534 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 16: and notioning. 535 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: Order to go over. 536 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 2: It's time like this to go over. 537 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 16: This girl had her air conditioner, the windows up in 538 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 16: stereo on and she says, I didn't knowing, and he 539 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 16: has a lot of trouble with her exsually he's gonna 540 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 16: stop ringing. She said, I just get him off and 541 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 16: standing speed up, and he says he's still standing out 542 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 16: on my mother all the way to Phillips is where 543 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 16: I was coming back to work, and he got into 544 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 16: the Phillips partner a lot and when she was inside, uh, 545 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 16: telling the other girls what had happened and describing to 546 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 16: pick up and the male subject in the pickup. 547 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: So even after he was interviewed about harassing women and 548 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: Dana's murder, Lenny was still frequenting the Phillips parking lot, 549 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: still harassing women, still following them, still trying to pull 550 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: them over. 551 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 5: Then this. 552 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 16: What we think is Dana knew him, which we've got 553 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 16: people saying that he talked to it. 554 00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: You know, in time, he knew everybody in a delic 555 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: the America numerous times. Uh, they know if he'd. 556 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 16: Ever followed data and called up the side and told 557 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 16: it draw off she you know, And we don't know 558 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 16: if it was talk to her by outside of the store. 559 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 16: Much possibly that he told her something that, you know, 560 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 16: can you follow me out there and take. 561 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 2: Me somewhere I can leave my car or something, And 562 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: they would have been the type of person and maybe 563 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: they's just got a little out of hand and you 564 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 2: think right downhill from there. 565 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: They asked about a possible penchant then he had for 566 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: picking up hitchhikers. 567 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 3: Is that a normal practice it is? Picked people up 568 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 3: like that? How often does he do whenever. 569 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 14: Someone is on the road, whenever someone is built down, 570 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 14: someone just parts. 571 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 3: He'll stop and they've. 572 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 14: We can help him. I got no problem to pick up. 573 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 14: I got no problem to pick up somebody I know. 574 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 14: I got a problem to pick up somebody that I know. 575 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 11: You know. 576 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 14: I said, you don't know anymore, and I don't care 577 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 14: if it's just me and him. I said, that's fine, 578 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 14: but our kids are with us. I don't want even 579 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 14: stopping for anybody, but he'll do that. 580 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 3: Have you noticed any does your husband having any personal 581 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 3: personality conflicts within himself? I know he had that accent. 582 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 3: Has that affected it? 583 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 9: He m. 584 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 3: You haven't seen a draft vast change of personality that 585 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 3: has happened since you met him, that he switches personalities 586 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 3: or anything like that. 587 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: You've been behind towards you. 588 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 14: No, he's he's change. 589 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: One of the things that we wish to value. My 590 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: researchers vehicle I'm saying. 591 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 16: Just going through the wallet type of thing that the 592 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 16: papers dropped him in. I said, I know you will 593 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 16: do that, And then he was gathering at the paper. 594 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 10: Uh. 595 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 16: And we've got doc said, which is to own maps 596 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 16: to the new ones and do Arkansas state maps. 597 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 9: Uh. 598 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 2: Got he said, starting to kissing me off. 599 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 16: And we we we thought it was you know, running 600 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 16: even key of a person and joking with us and 601 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 16: everything to get possibly balance. 602 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 3: Well when you open some off. 603 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: That last comment bears repeating violent only if you pissed 604 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: him off, spoken like someone who I'd imagine may have 605 00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: experienced that violence firsthand. And then this. 606 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 8: See hold it in or see let it out? 607 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 2: You let me ask you kind of another personal question. 608 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 2: Jenny's sexual fantasies kinky sex. 609 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 8: No, not that, But Danny's asked, has he ever implicated 610 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 8: or but you know he wanted to use some type 611 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 8: of restraint on you or on you mm hmm, like 612 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 8: rope or being tied out. 613 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 15: No, I don't reason that that. 614 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 3: You go somewhere out here. 615 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 8: Why did he want to do that? 616 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 3: Oh? No, he just said those kinds of people are 617 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 3: good for you. 618 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: They asked her about Dana's murder. 619 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 16: Specifically, is there anyone you know well or not that 620 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 16: she feels both suspicion would not do something like this. 621 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 5: To think why, I. 622 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: Had to stop and think about that a moment while 623 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: studying this interview tape. Here was a wife who believed 624 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: her husband was capable of committing murder. 625 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 3: Let me, let me go. But this way, we've thrown 626 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 3: a lot of stuff. That's sure. Quite honestly, you're taking 627 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 3: it pretty good. I mean you're taking everything in stride. 628 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 3: You're realizing what we're doing here. Have some of those 629 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 3: things you talked about, have they raised any concerns with you? 630 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 3: Or have they shot you or surprised you? 631 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 14: Or I don't want anything shock or surprise me anymore. 632 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 3: I've run around with a lot of people. 633 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 14: Strange people, different people, So you know, if someone said 634 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 14: my mother in law. 635 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 3: Shot, somebody's not gonna surprise me, because. 636 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 14: Anybody is capable of anything. 637 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: After reading the transcript of Lenny's second interview, listening to 638 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: his ex wife's interview, and also speaking with her myself, 639 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: I expected to beco to bring him in on an 640 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: arrest warrant at that time, but instead they asked him 641 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: to take a polygraph, which took an additional two years 642 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: to get done. After those two interviews, the BCSO conducted 643 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: the search warrant of his house and a second vehicle, 644 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: and well, what they found beyond those bindings and cables, 645 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Drew Miller mentioned at the end of the previous 646 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: episode seemed not only enough to arrest him but guarantee 647 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: a conviction. As they began searching his house, Detective Danny 648 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: Varner pulled Lenny's wife aside and spoke to her again. 649 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: And she says this quote. One night recently, when the 650 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: TV news showed one of the female murder victims, he 651 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: lowered his head and got sick. A detail I want 652 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: you to remember. Moving ahead, all of that you just 653 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: heard focused on Lenny's second wife. His first wife was 654 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: no longer able to speak to law enforcement about him. 655 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 7: His first wife, I mean, he probably destroyed her life. Honestly. 656 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 7: She got with him early in college and he just 657 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 7: basically abused her emotionally, probably physically, and then even more 658 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 7: so after his accident, and she did kill herself shortly 659 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 7: after DCSO detectives spoke with her. I think probably she 660 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 7: was at a breaking point. She'd already tried committing suicide 661 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 7: before that, but I think it was in her home 662 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 7: in a bad upsetting. I spoke to her daughter too, 663 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 7: and I think she said something along the lines, and 664 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 7: you know, that last interview was probably too rough. I mean, 665 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 7: it's just she's having to relive probably some of the 666 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 7: worst times of her life. 667 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 1: That's journalist Brandon Howard. I asked him what he thought 668 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: about Lenny's second interview. 669 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 7: He has some bizarre outbursts, specifically when they're talking about 670 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 7: the truck and a truck tag, and he kind of 671 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 7: just breaked out that he doesn't know anything about Damou's 672 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 7: homicide or murder. And they're like, whoa, whoa, what a 673 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 7: thing you did? 674 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 5: Man? 675 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: And the one thing you said to me was the 676 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: one thing that has always bugged you is how would 677 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: he know about this spot? I was referring to Oscar 678 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 1: Tally Road where Shauna Garber's body was dumped. If Lenny 679 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: was involved, there would have to be a link beyond 680 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: him traveling through the area. It's clear an investigator's belief 681 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: that Shawna's murderer had a direct tie to the place 682 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: where she was found. 683 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,320 Speaker 11: When they went to his home, they found several bindings 684 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,280 Speaker 11: that appeared to match. 685 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: Brandon had spent years investigating Lenny. Like me, he couldn't 686 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: understand why the BCSO had not arrested Lenny after his 687 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: second interview and the subsequent searches. So they get a 688 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: search warrant for his house and his vehicles and and 689 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: just talk to me a little bit about some of 690 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence that they find. 691 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 7: Yeah, the forensic stuff. They found several hairs in a 692 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 7: vehicle he owned that he sold to a neighbor, along 693 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 7: with evidence of blood clean up throughout the vehicle. The 694 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 7: hairs and blood were found pretty much all over the 695 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 7: steering wheel, rear y ear, floorboards, cargo aria, outside doors. 696 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 7: I think what complicated that was that the previous owner 697 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 7: had a similar makeup to Dana in terms of complexion 698 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 7: and maybe hair. He also cut himself when he tried 699 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 7: to open the door because the door was locked when 700 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 7: sold it to him. However, I still think that it's 701 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 7: worth pursuing what happened to those hairs because they had 702 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 7: what the crime labs stated was microscopic similarities to Dana's hair, 703 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 7: which is more than anything they had of any other 704 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 7: hair sample from any other suspect. Or suspect vehicle. To 705 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 7: add to that, the blood found in the station wagon's 706 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 7: floorboard on the passenger side seemingly is a pool of blood. 707 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 7: It's a jar photo PCs, so it took a photo 708 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 7: of the station wagon and the blood seemingly in the 709 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 7: picture is joining it. It seems like there's a pool 710 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 7: of it in the front seat. And it told me 711 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,720 Speaker 7: there's no way he can account for that much blood 712 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,240 Speaker 7: based off cutting his hands. 713 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: And so what are your thoughts on this guy being 714 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: responsible for Dana and or Seana Garber. 715 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 7: I think he did not get fully vetted in either case. 716 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 7: There's other things stand out. When they searched his home 717 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 7: involving interviews family saying that he had a pension for 718 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 7: bondage and sexual relations, and there was a videotape with 719 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 7: seemingly raped and bondage on the tape. It's not clear 720 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 7: if it was pornographic or if it was a personal tape, 721 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 7: or who was on the tape or why he had it. 722 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 7: There was no follow up interview and after the houses 723 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 7: were searched, as far as I know, his interview specifically 724 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 7: regarding it sit him case is all over the place, 725 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 7: seemingly admitting that he pulls over Whomen's in the grocery 726 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 7: store where she worked, that he doesn't know Dana, that 727 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 7: he does no Dana, that he could have pulled her 728 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 7: over for having a low tire, that she did have 729 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 7: a low tire. 730 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: It was getting harder to connect Dana and Shawna to 731 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: Lenny or one specific suspect. I was feeling confident the 732 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: two cases were the work of two different killers. I 733 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: asked Detective Rhonda Wise from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office 734 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 1: what she thought. 735 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 6: I think the biggest thing from a law enforcement standpoint, 736 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,399 Speaker 6: you know, is that we work these things. In both 737 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 6: of these cases, I would be safe to say will 738 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 6: continue to be. 739 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 2: Worked on until there is a solution. 740 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 3: But I think the biggest thing is just to. 741 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,560 Speaker 9: Be able to find the answers and to bring closure 742 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 9: for that family. 743 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: Here's Detective Laurie Howard. 744 00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 6: People say they have to be connected. They may be connected, 745 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 6: but I think they I think people also, this is 746 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 6: the scariest thing in the world, to say they underestimate 747 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 6: how many bad guys there are. You have to keep 748 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 6: an open mind. I say they're not connected. Show me evidence, 749 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 6: I'll change my mind. But that's the goal. But we're 750 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 6: always open. I think that's that's the beauty of this 751 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 6: particular agency in particulars. We're always open to take a 752 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 6: different mindset on somebody. 753 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: And McDonald County Sheriff Rob Evenson. 754 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 15: When a person does something like this, they're gonna they're 755 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 15: gonna answer for it, if not in this life, in 756 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,959 Speaker 15: the next. But they whoever did this to Shauna Owes 757 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 15: a debt to the state of Missouri. And when I 758 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 15: tell you I don't believe they're connected, that doesn't. 759 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 9: Mean that my mind couldn't be changed. They serve our community, 760 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 9: So you have to make a judgment call on how 761 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 9: do you best serve your community. Do you put hours 762 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 9: and hours into something that's old and cold, or do 763 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 9: you work these more recent cases that are solvable so 764 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 9: you can take care of people here and now in 765 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 9: the moment we knew good to solve the ones that 766 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 9: were working with today. 767 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: After having some trouble pinning Jack Lenny down at his 768 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: home during the early summer of twenty twenty three, I 769 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: started trying to get hold of him on the phone. 770 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: I made an early decision that I wasn't going to 771 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: take his smarmy, sarcastic bullshit on the chin. He needed 772 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,760 Speaker 1: to be called out on all of the evidence pointing 773 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: directly at him. He had obviously not been charged in 774 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,360 Speaker 1: either Dana or Shawna's case. For months, I got nothing 775 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,840 Speaker 1: but wrong numbers, dial tone, and silence. Then one morning 776 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: in early December twenty twenty three, I dialed a new number, 777 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: and there he was looking for. 778 00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 4: You got it? 779 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 5: Wait? You what? 780 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: It was the beginning of what would turn out to 781 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: be an eye popping, bizarre, revealing, forty five minute call, 782 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: resulting in me right afterward contacting a detective working one 783 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: of the cases. My name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an 784 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: investigative journalist recording this call for my podcast. I'd like 785 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: to answer you some questions. Now what I said. My 786 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist working on 787 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: two cold cases, recording this from my podcast Paper Ghosts. 788 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk to you about some things. 789 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 5: Do what well? 790 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk to you about the murder of 791 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: Dana Stidham. With what Dana Stidham's murder, I don't know. 792 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 12: I have no earth idea. 793 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,839 Speaker 3: I thought that was all done. 794 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: He knew exactly what I was referring to. That's not true. 795 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 4: That has been so long ago. 796 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 15: Oh, I don't think of that. 797 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: But you were there on the day she went missing 798 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,840 Speaker 1: at the Phillips grocery. Could you talk to me about 799 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine. Did you kill Dana Stidham? 800 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,399 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people, including me, who think 801 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: you did. If you want to take a deeper dive 802 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: into some of the subjects covered in this episode and 803 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,239 Speaker 1: get real time updates on the cases I cover in 804 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts, subscribe to my ongoing weekly show, Crossing the 805 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,759 Speaker 1: Line with m william Phelps you get your favorite podcasts. 806 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: Next time on Paper Ghosts. 807 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 14: And everybody that has ever known him, and I'm going 808 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 14: to be one of those those people. 809 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 12: He was evil. 810 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:12,800 Speaker 7: He was pure evil. 811 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 13: And so one of the things important is there could 812 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 13: be someone listening who knows something. Oftentimes, in cases like this, 813 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,279 Speaker 13: it can be small things that make the difference. It 814 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 13: can be a small key that unlocks a door to 815 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 13: an avenue that no one knew was there. 816 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,520 Speaker 1: He also told me that the same person who killed 817 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: Dana killed my girl. 818 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 7: He referred to Sean as my girl. 819 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,840 Speaker 6: Then he just reminds me again that he is a killer, 820 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 6: and he never once told me that he wasn't a killer. 821 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: One note about sourcing. The call you heard at the 822 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,879 Speaker 1: top of this episode was a word for word reenactment 823 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,640 Speaker 1: taken directly from a transcript of the actual call paper. 824 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by Me 825 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 1: and William Phelps. Script consulting by Rose Bachi, sound design 826 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: by Matt Russell, executive production by Catherine Law, and audio 827 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Takaboom Productions. The series' 828 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: theme number four four to two is written and performed 829 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo