WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 36: Tom’s New Projects (ft. the Return of High Pointe) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.960 And when I find my. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.920 Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the gread, Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.720 Frida Egg, fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:40.200 run off the the. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.120 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.880 and another edition of The Yoke with Doak. Tom Doak 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.200 is back today, so it's uh, it's great to talk 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.760 with Tom again. I think we both have had very 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.559 busy travel schedules this summer, which has limited our ability 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.319 to get on UH on Zoom and in talk or 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.920 be in person together to record some some podcasts, but 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.920 thankfully travel slowing down. 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:03.400 For both of us. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.960 We got some episodes here and I think we'll get 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.160 some more around the holidays. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:10.640 And there's lots to talk about. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.000 Tons of stuff going on with golf design, and it 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.200 was excited to catch up with Tom about some of 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.279 his current projects that he's been working on as well 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.800 as some projects that are coming up. And then we 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.040 did another part on a lot of listener Q and 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:31.200 a a lot of ranging topics, lots of interesting conversation 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.880 golf design so a quick revider. 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:36.280 We are barreling. 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.320 Down on the holiday season. We have the Friday pro 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.840 Shop stocked up ready to go. We have a ton 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.959 of print photography in there that you don't really have 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.840 to worry about with running out, but you know other 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.639 items we have. You know, I think we've got pretty 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.720 much all of our holiday stuff up now if you 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.080 really love something and want a specific piece, just to 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.560 avoid not having a run out. We obviously have limited quantities. 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.840 We can't you know, stock crazy amounts. We're still a 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.680 small shop, but if you want something, you should go 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.160 get it now before it potentially could be sold out quickly. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.400 So that's pro Shop dot the fridagg dot com. 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.560 We will have a big sale this this coming Black Friday, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.480 Cyber Monday, whatever it is. Now, I feel like people 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.520 are doing entire month sales. It's it's kind of crazy. 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.880 So uh, Meg and Will from our team have worked 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:36.120 really hard to get a large variety in there and 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.320 some fun new items. So check it out pro Shop 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.760 dot Thefrida Egg dot com. And now here is Tom 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:51.720 do Tom welcome back. It's been a little while. What's 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.919 uh you've been You've been all over the place, huh. 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.839 I've traveled a lot this fall. Yeah, really the last year. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.640 You know, it was about Somber October last year that 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.280 we that I started committing to new projects. And I 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.600 didn't you know, I didn't anticipate that there was going 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.080 to be a boom like there has been, or that 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:17.880 some or that so much of it would would involve 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:18.880 me in any way. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:19.600 That they call it. 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.519 You know, I'm starting to get calls about the kind 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.560 of projects that I didn't used to and that's partly 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.360 that there's you know, there's a big void now in 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.840 the business that you know, Pete Die and Jack Nicholas 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.080 and Tom Fazio aren't really designing golf courses anymore, and 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.680 so so all of the all of the kinds of 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.520 projects that used to go to them, they're trying to 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.320 figure out who to go to. And and you know, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.880 I'm one of the people that's getting calls about you know, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.720 bigger projects, more corporate projects, just you know, in addition 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.840 to my little niche that I've always had. And so 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:01.160 I've wound up, you know, since since a year ago, 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:02.680 I signed up. 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.040 Seven or eight new jobs, which. 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.120 I you know, I've never I've never been that busy before, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.160 and and you know, at the time, you know, once 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.280 it started looking like, okay, there's a boom, you know, 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.200 I thought, you know, people were also talking about, oh, 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:23.039 there's a recession coming. So I'm like, well, you know, 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.200 probably not all of these are going to happen, or 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:32.120 at least not happen as fast as they say. But 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.960 in fact, most of these clients, they have the money 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.240 in the bank, they're not borrowing it from a bank. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.479 So it's not like two thousand and eight. These projects 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.680 aren't just gonna all go away now. You know, maybe 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.480 some of them got a little more complicated with permits, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.000 so they're taking a year long. You know, like the 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:50.919 first two I signed up, I thought we would be 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.400 starting them right now, and they're still knee deep in 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.599 the permit battle and it'll be six months or a 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.360 year before they can get going. So so then when 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.640 somebody else called, I said, well, you know, I can't 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:08.240 do it next next winter. That's I have all these 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.320 things pushed back in the next winter. If you could 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.320 actually do it this winter, we could do it. So 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.240 I've got a couple of things like that that that 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.520 you know, we kind of rushed through the permits, so 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.960 we can get started on them. And so you know, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.760 I'm juggling a lot of balls right now, doing drawing 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.599 plans for like four or five different places at the 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.080 same time. You know, the the routings are all done, 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.360 they have been for a while, but you know, all 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.159 the documents that they need for the planning permission is 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.120 what's eating me up right now. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:43.760 As you said, you're busier than ever. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.800 What what do you think your like capacity is on 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.560 a on a like what's the ideal capacity and what's 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.160 what's the maximum amount of work that you could do 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:54.880 at once? 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:01.080 Well, you know, back in the day, we never had 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.120 more than three new projects going at the same time. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.359 That was sort of my comfort level based on the 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.760 staff that you know, I have three main associates. It's 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.640 like they could each be running one It's better if 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.280 they're not all at running exactly the same time, so 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.760 that you know, one of the you know, Eric can 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.159 get away and come when I'm on Brian's project to 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.640 help out a little bit, and then they'll do the 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:26.560 same for each other. 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:28.919 You know. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.359 Now it sounds like I'm gonna have five golf courses 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.560 in some stage of construction in May, and of course 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:41.800 I have, you know, Angela Moser and Clyde Johnson and 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.000 Blake Kona, who have worked with us for years. You know, 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.279 they're definitely to the point in their careers where they 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.200 can run a job, and they've been they've been excited 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.880 to have that chance. And one of the reasons I've 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.960 committed to more things is because it's like, yeah, it 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.800 is their turn to run a job, but you know, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.920 I'm going to be pulled more ways than I've ever 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.120 been pulled before, and that's going to be tricky. And 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.680 then you know, you know, one of the reasons these 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.200 last few courses have turned out so good is because 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.240 one of those people were you know, they were number two. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.120 You know, like in New Zealand last winter, Brian Slnik 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:21.760 was running the job and he had Clyde and the 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.200 Angela there the pretty much the whole time shape and 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.320 with him now they're all going to be on their 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.080 own things and can't rely on each other so much. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.360 So in Wisconsin the last two years we've been like 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.960 bringing some new interns through and seeing if we can 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.840 train a couple of them up to be a real 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.720 help shaping for the next year or two, because we're 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:42.240 going to need the. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:48.640 Help with having you know, three very talented people like Clyde, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:54.040 Angela and Brian on a project. Is is there actually also, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.840 you know, advantage to only having one that's doing primarily 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.760 all the shaping, because as opposed to three being spread out, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.560 if one, say, one person shapes all all eighteen greens, 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.080 could it actually be a benefit to having a rhythm 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.080 I you know, obviously I think it could. You could 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.960 make cases either way, but there might be an advantage 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.360 also to having one person and having a cognitive like 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.760 a very singular focus, you know, focus on every single green. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.040 Sure we'll find out. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.680 You know, our answer to that up to now has 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.600 always been no, we'd rather have some outside input. And 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.360 you know, whoever is running the job, it's their call. 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:37.720 You know, it's their call and my call at the 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:39.960 end of the day. How much of that input from 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.720 the others to take in? But you know, having three 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:49.360 or four pairs of seasoned eyes on every feature is 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.000 a great thing. And you know it's gonna be hard 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.120 to give that up where we have to give it up. 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.960 You know, maybe we're not giving it up totally. It's like, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.640 you know, it's not like there aren't other talented people around, 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.320 and good superintendents involved and all the rest. It's just, 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.040 you know, we don't we don't have all the same 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:11.880 people that we've been relying on for the feedback. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.520 Let's talk about one of the new projects. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.320 It's it's one that we've talked about probably almost more 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.760 than any other project of yours on this podcast. It's 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:28.040 your first project and it's coming back High Point. So 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.840 I think you know this has been reported in the 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.880 I think the Traverse City newspaper was the first one 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.240 to report it. You've been on Golf Channel talking about it. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:40.560 High Point in Traverse City is making a comeback like 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:41.800 something of my had. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:43.880 You know, all the years that we've done. 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.640 This podcast, was always like I just don't know why 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.160 Tom just doesn't buy it and rebuild it, because it 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.240 seems like he wishes it was back. So Rod Trump, 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.839 who who I have gotten to know over the years, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.120 is behind it. Tell us that process of getting this 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.080 in when you actually truly believed that it was coming back. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:12.080 Well, Rod Trump, who's president of Pine Tree Golf Club 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:17.560 right now and no relation to our ex president, called 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.400 me about a year ago right now to ask me 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:25.000 if I was interested in reviving High Point just completely 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.440 out of blue. And you know, we've talked about it 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:29.839 a lot. You and I have talked about it a 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.719 lot over the years. You're not the only one I've 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.960 talked to about it. So it was a shock to 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.319 have somebody call and be discussing it seriously. He'd been 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.400 trying to buy the Kingsley Club when it was up 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.240 for sale. He didn't realize that he was bidden against 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.160 four or five other groups, you know, and he thought 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.160 he was going to get that job. He thought he 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.520 was going to get that course, and then it sold 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.040 to somebody else, and he was like, God, I really 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.280 love Traverse City, and I thought I thought it was 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.160 going to happen for me there. And a couple of 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.200 local people that he knows pretty well, including Adam Schreiber, 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.080 who was golf pro at high Point, at what point 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.560 said you know, if you want to do a golf 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.800 course in Traverse City, you should talk to Tom about 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.320 High Point. You know everybody here knows he'd love to 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.280 redo that if he could. So that's what prompted the 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.240 call from Rot. And I was like, yeah, I mean, 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.960 if that land is for sale and it sounds like 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.080 the Hops Farm isn't really you know, making tons of money, 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.720 and they're not going to expand it. They might be 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.240 interested in selling some of their ground and having a 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.640 crack at it. So let's try to put this together. 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.840 And you know, I mean, I've believed it's a serious 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.560 thing now for almost a year, but I've been trying 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.680 not to get my hopes up because I know the 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.400 you know, the development process is complicated and it's going 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.440 to cost a lot more than one point three million 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.319 dollars to build a golf course there again, even though 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:57.040 there was half a one still laying there. It's a 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.559 little different project than the first time, you know, when 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.400 I when I did High Point. The first time, the 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.160 Hayden Z owned three hundred and twenty acres, and everybody 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.400 used to comment on how different the two nines, where 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:10.080 one nine was in like old orchard ground that mostly 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.480 just kind of tilted to the north toward the road 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.040 where you came in, and then the other nine was 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:20.240 back in woodsier stuff with more dramatic elevation changes to it, 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.760 and the Hops Farm covers most of the front nine 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.360 and a little bit of the old sixteenth and seventeenth 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.240 holds where they came out of the trees and for 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.160 the Hops farm to sell us the ground that they 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.760 weren't using for the farm. That's one thing. They're not 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.079 really using it. So the land caught. You know, the 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.240 land costs whatever the land value. 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:42.679 Is up here now. 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.559 But to actually restore the Front nine would have cost 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.920 a lot more because you'd be paying not only for 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.520 the land but for the crop that they have on it. 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.080 They tore up that part of the golf course and 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.360 kind of leveled everything out more in order to put 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.880 up all the poles and have the hot FM, So 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.960 you know, it would it would have been hard to 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.960 reproduce all the greens complex if we built the first time. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.280 Even some of the topography has gone away. I've never 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.640 really walked through there to see if I can't even 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.559 recognize exactly what it was like anymore. And we do 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.400 have interestingly enough, if we do have the lie doar 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.840 stuff on that they shot it. The oldest lie doar 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.199 stuff they shot in Traverse City was just before they 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:29.560 tore up Highpoint. So Brian Zaeger assures me that someday 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.840 the Pots farm goes away and we want to rebuild 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.319 the Front nine, we can, but right now that doesn't 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.040 make any sense for Rod. He was just going to 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.360 have to pay more for that land to do it. 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.280 And the wild card that he didn't really know about 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:46.240 but I did, was that right when we were building 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.960 high Point, the Haydens bought another one hundred and sixty 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.000 acres to the east of the golf course and they, 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.320 you know, in like nineteen eighty eight, they asked me 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.960 to what if we did a third nine, that's what 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.800 before the golf before the first eighteen holes even opened, 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.640 And I did a layout for that and they never 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.720 pursued it at all. But I knew that between that 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.160 land and the back nine that there was, you know, 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.679 there was the potential for an eighteen hole golf course 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.000 that didn't get into the hops farm, and that would 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.680 be a doable land deal, and low and behold, that's 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.040 what we're going to build. So it's a new version 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.480 of high Point and only like six or seven of 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.960 the old holes will still be on the golf course, 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.280 but they're that old stretch at the start of the 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.080 back nine that's in my book is a sample of 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.120 how to route golf courses. It was my favorite stretch 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.160 of the golf course. It was everybody's favorite stretch of 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.920 the golf course. You know, yes, there were some holes 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.400 in the front nine that were really cool too, but 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.160 you know, it's like we've got to crack it building 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.400 a new golf course with some dramatic new land and 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.760 kind of the best at the old hype, which I 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.640 think is going to be a really fun thing to do. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.000 I probably should have prepared here. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.680 But is that video there's that great old video of 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.800 you putting balls on a green? Is that one of 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.360 the holes that will be back? 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:06.240 Yeah? 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.840 That was the thirteenth I thought that was. Yeah, that 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.760 is That's definitely one of the holes that we're saving. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.920 I wouldn't go so far as to say I wouldn't 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.360 have done the project if that hole wasn't part of it, 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:20.880 but that was always a favorite. That thing is it's 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.920 just a wild green. And you know Ron Whitten from 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.920 Golf Diye just to you know, he can't I'd met 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.720 Ron before when I worked for the Dies, but he 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.560 came up to visit, like when we were in the 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.480 middle of construction at high Point in nineteen eighty seven, 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.960 and he said to me, like several years after that, 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.400 it's like, yeah, as soon as I saw the thirteenth green, 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.000 I was like, wow, he's doing different stuff than. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.400 Eight and they else I've seen. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.240 You know, that was the one thing that interested him 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.000 the most, like, Okay, this is not what what most 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.920 people are doing. This is going to be interesting. I mean, 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.080 High Point was fairly well ignored when it opened. It 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.440 wasn't like a best new course or anything, because nobody 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.200 knew who I was. You know, That's that's just the 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.440 way those things are for a while. It's hard to 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.600 get recognition, especially when you're you know, it's a little 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.000 easier now because there's not much new stuff going on. 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.080 But you know, back when Tom Fazio and Jack Nicholas 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.200 are turning out ten new golf courses a year, it's like, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.160 you know, what are the odds that you're going to 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.760 be doing something that's as exciting as the best of 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:33.640 their ten projects. It just wasn't happening. So you know, 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.120 this time, this time, we're starting from a different place there. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:41.080 So there'll be six existing holes, twelve new holes, and 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.640 so the majority of which will come from the the 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.880 nine the nine additional nine holes that you routed and 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:53.160 roughly like the nineteen eighty eight Okay, so have you 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.160 gone back, like, you know, is it you're going back? 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:56.280 Like? 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.600 I think about it as like when I reread an 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.480 article I wrote sixty years yars ago, I just I'm like, 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.080 I might need to start over. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:04.439 I might need to rewrite this. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.119 When he looked at the routing, I assume it was 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.959 just filed away somewhere when he looked at the routing. 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.040 You know what stood out to you about the routing 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.360 and were there anythings that you tweaked? 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.280 Well, luckily I did have a copy of the routing. 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.159 You know some I mean for a while there. That 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.480 was very early in my career. I still didn't I 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.760 wasn't married, I didn't have a I didn't have a home, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.840 I didn't have an office. So like like, I had 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.000 no plans for the Legends in Myrtle Beach. The superintendent 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.879 there just just emailed me a picture of my grading 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.880 plan for the Legends. They still had it in their files, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:42.639 so he's going to get a copy of it. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:43.760 But I didn't have that. 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.720 Fortunately, the match for high Point I still hung onto, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.000 and somehow it included that third nine that I laid 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.600 out well, you know which I remember I remembered pretty 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.520 well how it fits. It's a hilly piece of ground 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.199 like the back ninties, And I thought to myself, I 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.760 could probably do a better version of that now that 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.800 isn't quite as up and down, because you know, the 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.680 first time I was twenty seven years old building high Point. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.600 Now I'm sixty two, sixty one. It's like, I still 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.399 walk when I play golf, but I appreciate more that 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.919 going up a forty foot hill to the tee is 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.560 not so easy as it once was for me. So 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.840 I'm like, yeah, you know, a couple of these elevated teas. 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:29.680 I need to figure out if I can do something 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.359 jetler than that. And I did another version of the routing, 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.360 and then, let you know this, this spring, I went 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.720 out and tried to walk my new version versus the 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:40.400 old and it's like, nope, the. 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.560 Old one's better. Really, yeah, the old one is. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.040 Yeah, it's a little more tough to walk, but but 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.199 there's a couple of holes on it. They're just like, 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.520 you still want to do that hole that way? 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:55.600 So it is. 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.360 So the only real new holes in the routing are 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.639 there's a couple further south than the back nine. They 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:08.960 they somehow acquired the forty acres there that that wasn't 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.280 available to us originally, and some of it's a wetland, 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.840 so there's only room for two holes there, but those 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.480 will go out and back off the back nine. So 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.840 so you know, the numbering's not all quite the same 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.600 as before when you add in those two holes, and 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.639 then the other change. You know, sixteen and seventeen go 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.800 away because part of those holes are in the hoots, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.720 and then the eighteenth hole was everybody's least favorite hole. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.119 But I still got to use that land, and I 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.359 still got to get back toward the clubhouse where the 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.879 clubhouse won't be in the same place anymore, but you 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.359 still got to get through that space to connect the route. 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.680 So but now instead of starting the hole all the 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.639 way back where it did, you're going to be coming 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.160 off the fifteenth green, which was a part of three 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.920 that came down to a bench. So we'll go down 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:03.520 the hill from there and basically tee off from just 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.080 above the landing area of the old eighteenth hole and 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.080 drive it across the big pond and then go up 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.439 the hill from there, and that you know, that'll that'll 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.720 take out You know, you used to have a forced 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.720 carry on the second shot, and the wetlands and stuff 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.560 on the T shot made you kind of hedge away 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.760 from the carry, and then it was a really difficult 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.679 carry for people, you know, being able to navigate all 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.159 that on the T shot. You know, it'll still be 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:32.840 the only hole with water in play, but it won't 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.080 be as frustrating as the original hole was. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.800 I think, if I remember correctly one time on this podcast, 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.560 I we there's a question about what hole would you 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.200 redesign or rework? 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.639 And that was your answer? Is that the eighteenth at 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:48.160 high Point. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.800 Yeah, we wouldn't have kept that hole the way it was, 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.639 and you know, I couldn't have looked Rod in the 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.320 face and told him straight that, yeah, it's going to 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.480 be a great golf course where with this hole A 0:20:59.520 --> 0:20:59.960 is the finish. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:02.160 Yeah. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.160