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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie

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Speaker 1: missing this as Pima County helicopters joined by Maricopa County

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Speaker 1: helicopters take to the air headed toward the Phoenix, Arizona

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Speaker 1: FBI headquarters tonight. A careful analysis of the lights that

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Speaker 1: appear over the shoulder of the so called porch guy.

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Speaker 1: Are they actually coming from the vacant house now that

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Speaker 1: we know where it is, or the construction site now

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Speaker 1: that we know where that is? And an expert joins

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Speaker 1: us on the mysterious tracks outside Nancy Guthrie's home. Good evening,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Directly from our home to Nancy's house. It would be

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Speaker 2: rough brush especially in the dark. She was just a pleasant,

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Speaker 2: wonderful neighbor. And we're so saddened, of course, a heartbroken

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Speaker 2: about what's happened.

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Speaker 1: The Caddy Corner neighbor of Nancy Guthrie revealing a lot.

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Speaker 1: Mister Lemie tells us that the vacant home and the

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Speaker 1: construction site we're very near Nancy Guthrie's home. We learned

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Speaker 1: a lot this is helicopters take to the air from

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Speaker 1: Pima County and Maricopa straight out to Dave matt crime

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Speaker 1: Stori's investigative reporter, first the helicopters. What happened and why?

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Speaker 3: Nancy, the Pima County Sheriff's Department has been using helicopters

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Speaker 3: in the Guthrie investigation since early on and yes, yesterday

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Speaker 3: they took off early and flew in a corridor between

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Speaker 3: Tucson and the border with Mexico and flew back but

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Speaker 3: then landed. It's at the FBI office headquarters.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: As the day went on, Pema County was joined by

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Speaker 3: Maricopa County Sheriff's Department helicopters also joining in the travels

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Speaker 3: between Tucson and the border and back to Phoenix again.

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Speaker 3: So we've got evidence that has been transported by helicopters

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Speaker 3: in this investigation and in other investigations, and wonder if

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Speaker 3: that's the same thing taking place now with Pema County

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Speaker 3: going down toward the border and back to Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: Well, guys, this is from our friends at Fox and

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Speaker 1: US this video. You're saying, you know, Scott Morgan, I

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Speaker 1: would discount it as being primitive, but you know the

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Speaker 1: fact that Apma County helicopter went toward the Mexican border

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Speaker 1: and was joined by Marikoba County helicopter. But for the

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Speaker 1: fact that the helicopters then went to the FBI headquarters.

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Speaker 1: To me, that's just too much, too much of a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: So that says to me, this was Nancy Guthrie related.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, would I would say that it was. Do you

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Speaker 4: recall when we saw those individuals show up at the house.

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Speaker 4: They were dressed in suits. We thought that maybe they

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Speaker 4: were part of the prosectorial team, perhaps FEDS. They're trying

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Speaker 4: to assess the whole area in its fatality. All right,

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Speaker 4: so if you fly that cycle from that location and

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Speaker 4: then all the way back pending around, you're kind of

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Speaker 4: getting a bird thy view, arn't and maybe they had

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Speaker 4: picked up on something, if they had done any kind

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Speaker 4: of light OAR mapping, any kind of BSI BIS mapping.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to Okay, you need to explain to everyone

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. Just throwing out acronyms is not helping

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Speaker 1: anyone under stand what you're saying, and it's very valuable

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. Go ahead.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So if they're if they're working on any kind

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Speaker 4: of imagery, uh that has been either generated by drones,

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Speaker 4: it's been generated by satellite imagery. It's one thing to

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Speaker 4: take that and look at it on a computer screen.

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Speaker 4: But if you've got people that are interested in this investigation,

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Speaker 4: they can take those images and go back and say, Okay,

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Speaker 4: we're going to fly this route. This is something that is,

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Speaker 4: like you said, potentially probative. If they're talking about a

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Speaker 4: track or a trail that leads in that particular direction.

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Speaker 4: See here, we have it on the imagery that we've generated.

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Speaker 4: We're going to fly this route, and then we're going

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Speaker 4: to go back to the office discussing. I think that

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Speaker 4: that that very well might be or have some value

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Speaker 4: for individuals that are, let's just say, in military terms,

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Speaker 4: on the tipic sphere in this particular investigation.

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Speaker 1: Joining us now in addition to Joseph's Got Morgan, Director

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Speaker 1: Operations USPA Nation White Security leading a team of investigators

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Speaker 1: around the world to locate and extract missing people. Former

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Speaker 1: Marine Iraqi war Vet Brian Fitzgibbons I find it very

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Speaker 1: telling that first Pima County helicopters take to the air.

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Speaker 1: This is in the last twenty four hours, they are

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Speaker 1: joined by Maricopa County helicopters. They go toward the Mexican border,

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Speaker 1: seemingly rendezvous, and then head back toward the FBI headquarters

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Speaker 1: in Phoenix. Remember a couple of weeks ago, the FBI

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Speaker 1: decamped largely from Tucson, leaving guys and women on the ground,

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Speaker 1: but heading back to assimilate evidence at their main headquarters

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Speaker 1: where they have all of their facilities. They're in Phoenix,

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Speaker 1: so why what could they be looking at? This is

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Speaker 1: what you and your team at USPA Nationwide Security do

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Speaker 1: when you are trying to find missing people. So how

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Speaker 1: does this fit in with Nancy Guff?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we live in an age of incredible amounts of

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Speaker 5: open source intelligence where you know, the public online sluice

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Speaker 5: private firms are able to track with incredible detail, in

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Speaker 5: immediacy any movements of aircraft in and around related to

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Speaker 5: this case, with tail numbers and everything else, you know, destinations,

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Speaker 5: their travel patterns, you know, could this be something related

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Speaker 5: to the case. Potentially, could this be related to some

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Speaker 5: other case. We don't know all that. All that we're able.

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Speaker 1: To see that Brian, Brian, I know it may or

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Speaker 1: may not be related to this case. I would venture

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Speaker 1: to just go out on a limb and say it

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Speaker 1: is because they circle back to the FBI headquarters. What

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Speaker 1: other case is PAYMA handling that is FBI connected that

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Speaker 1: they want to use a helicopter form So what are

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Speaker 1: they looking at? Why do they need a helicopter van point?

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Speaker 1: Why bring in another law enforcement agency mirricope? Of course

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Speaker 1: I know it may or may not be connected. I

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Speaker 1: mean I can ask a guy on the street that.

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Speaker 1: But you're the director of Operations USPA Nationwide Security, so think, think, think, ye,

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Speaker 1: what are they doing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this looks like movement of personnel to me.

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Speaker 5: So for some reason they went directly to that FBI location.

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Speaker 5: You know, we didn't see them scanning similar to the

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Speaker 5: Bluetooth beacon where they were searching in a slow, methodical

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Speaker 5: grid pattern. These were directed movements of personnel for a

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Speaker 5: specific reason back to that FBI location.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they took the scenic route. Brian Fitzgibbons.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they went from PEMA to the Mexican

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Speaker 1: border and then too the FBI headquarters to transfer personnel.

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Speaker 1: Personnel can get in a car and drive they're not

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Speaker 1: getting a helicopter escort. Plus, they're not going to go

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Speaker 1: in a triangle. If it was just transferring personnel, they

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Speaker 1: would go from Pema to Phoenix. They would not go

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Speaker 1: a drive by at the Mexican border. What, Brian, You've

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Speaker 1: extracted a lot of people that were missing. Why did

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Speaker 1: they need an aerial view? This is not like catching

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Speaker 1: an uber to carry somebody to FBI headquarters. They're looking

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Speaker 1: for something. What.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I disagree. I think that this is a

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Speaker 5: movement of people. You know, whether those personnel are you know,

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Speaker 5: Pema County Sheriff's office or a potential suspect in this case.

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Speaker 5: That that flight pattern looked to me like they were

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Speaker 5: moving people.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I reject that, but maybe you're right. Before I

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Speaker 1: totally throw out the baby with the bath order, Dave

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Speaker 1: mac tell me again, what we know about the helicopter

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Speaker 1: movements last night.

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Speaker 3: What we know, Nancy, is that it started with Pima County, Okay.

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Speaker 5: At first, it was.

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Speaker 3: Just Pima County flying there helicopter from Tucson to the border,

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Speaker 3: then coming back landing near the Phoenix office for the FBI.

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Speaker 3: Then later in the day, Maricopa County then joined the

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Speaker 3: Pima County Sheriff's Department helicopter. So you had Pema County

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Speaker 3: going alone, then returning and going back with Maricopa County

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Speaker 3: two helicopters flying from to the border from the Tucson area,

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Speaker 3: and then again incorporating the FBI landing into that as

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Speaker 3: well in Phoenix, again Pima alone, then Marikopa County together.

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Speaker 1: Hmm. Todd Shipley joining US digital cybercrime expert and you

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Speaker 1: can find him at dark intel dot info. Former Detective

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Reno twenty five years in LA, the author of

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Speaker 1: Surviving Cyber Attack Todd, What were they looking for? Why

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Speaker 1: did they need helicopter vantages? Why did they need to

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Speaker 1: look at why did they need an aerial view?

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Speaker 6: Well, they could have easily gotten new information that we

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Speaker 6: didn't know about before, which leads to them looking for

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Speaker 6: a path that the kidnappers could have taken there, trying

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Speaker 6: to verify locations. There may have been some evidence that

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Speaker 6: they found near the border, but they wanted to hurriedly

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Speaker 6: get back to the FBI to go through. So there's

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Speaker 6: a couple of different things that could have happened. I mean,

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Speaker 6: the transportation to personnel is definitely one of them, but

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Speaker 6: there's a lot of other things that could have happened there.

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Speaker 6: I think that they still want to try to find

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Speaker 6: signals from the pacemaker. If it's still active, they could

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Speaker 6: be updoing that again. Again, they would be doing something

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Speaker 6: more patterned. But if they had specific information about a location,

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Speaker 6: than may have wanted to get down there in the

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Speaker 6: air right away to try to see if they could

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Speaker 6: get the signal.

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Speaker 1: Shipley, I agree with you on everything you said except

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Speaker 1: one thing. I don't think it has anything to do

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker because they started Correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Dave Matt. They started the pacemaker search with

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Speaker 1: a signal sniffer, which is blue flight technology. They quickly

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Speaker 1: transferred to drones with the sniffer attached because the bluetooth

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Speaker 1: signal from a pacemaker does not extend as high as

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Speaker 1: many people think, so they had to get lower down

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Speaker 1: to the ground. Therefore, I don't think they would make

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Speaker 1: the same mistake of attaching signal sniffers to a helicopter

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Speaker 1: and flying to Mexico. I see where you're going. I

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Speaker 1: agree with everything you said before the What is that

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Speaker 1: Dave mac jumping in? Go ahead, Dave and by the way,

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Speaker 1: that's from our friends at Blue Flight YouTube.

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Speaker 3: I'm just trying to point out that, you know, Bluetooth technology,

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Speaker 3: it only reaches about twenty feet, and so once you're

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Speaker 3: past that, I'm not going to do a lot of good.

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Speaker 3: And that's the case where they were able to use

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Speaker 3: the drugs because you can bring the drones in a

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Speaker 3: lot lower than you can bring in helicopters, and a

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Speaker 3: lot they're less disruptive as well. So I'm with you

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Speaker 3: on that one. With regard to what the helicopters were

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Speaker 3: being used for.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday, well, I'm so glad that there's an echo chamber,

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Speaker 1: but the Bluetooth signal, as we learned at the time,

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Speaker 1: goes much further than twenty feet. That was the Bluetooth

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Speaker 1: signal you're referring to, correctly, Dave Mac the Bluetooth signal

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Speaker 1: from her phone and her WiFi. Once she left the home,

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Speaker 1: it cut that connection. That video from our friends at

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Speaker 1: Fox News. But Brayfhatz Gibbons didn't we learn upon a

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Speaker 1: careful review that Bluetooth signals can go as far as

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Speaker 1: the football field.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so there had been some work done on these

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Speaker 5: antennas to amp to increase the range of that signal

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Speaker 5: sniffer up to you know, one hundred and fifty to

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Speaker 5: three hundred feet in some test cases that I saw online.

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Speaker 5: So I believe that some of that technology had been

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Speaker 5: deployed earlier on in this case, you know, to broaden

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Speaker 5: the scope of that search.

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Speaker 1: You're right, helicopters could actually interfere with the signals reception

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Speaker 1: and cannot get low enough to connect, and that is

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Speaker 1: why the device was then attached to a drone. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think this had anything to do with trying

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Speaker 1: to find her pacemaker. I do, however, think Todd Shipley's

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Speaker 1: onto something about what they were looking for. Could it

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Speaker 1: have been a route, Could it have been even a hideout,

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Speaker 1: It could have been so many things. We don't know yet,

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Speaker 1: but we're trying to find out. That said, in the

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Speaker 1: last twenty four hours, helicopters from Pima County Sheriffs, then

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Speaker 1: joined by Maricopa County Sheriffs rendezvous, we understand en route

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Speaker 1: to the Mexican border, then travel to the FBI headquarters

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Speaker 1: in Phoenix. Also, the Guthrie family issuing another desperate plea

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Speaker 1: asking neighbors to search their memories.

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Speaker 3: We are deeply grateful for the outpouring from neighbors, friends,

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Speaker 3: and the people of Tucson. We're all family now. We

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Speaker 3: continue to believe it is Tusonans and the greater Southern

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Speaker 3: Arizona community that hold the key to finding resolution. In

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Speaker 3: this case, someone knows something. It's possible a member of

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Speaker 3: this commune unity has information that they do not even

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Speaker 3: realize is significant. We hope people search their memories, especially

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Speaker 3: around the key timelines of January thirty first, the early

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Speaker 3: morning hours of February first, as well as the late

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Speaker 3: evening of January eleventh. We desperately ask the community for

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Speaker 3: renewed attention to our mom's case. Please consult camera footage,

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Speaker 3: journal notes, text messages, observations or conversations that in retrospect

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Speaker 3: may hold significance. No detail is too small it may

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Speaker 3: be the key. We miss our mom with every breath,

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Speaker 3: and we cannot be in peace until she's home. We

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Speaker 3: cannot grieve, we can only ache and wonder. Our focus

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Speaker 3: is solely on finding her and bringing her home. We

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Speaker 3: want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we

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Speaker 3: cannot do that until she's brought to a final place

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Speaker 3: of rest. Thank you for continuing to pray without ceasing.

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Speaker 1: That statement from the Gufrie family is heartbreaking on so

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Speaker 1: many levels. Again referring back to Thessalonians begging people to

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Speaker 1: pray without ceasing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace out to

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of

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Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a

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Speaker 1: hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, but more importantly,

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Speaker 1: death investigator with over ten thousand death investigations under his belt.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear not only the heartbreaking nature of that?

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Speaker 1: And I can't help but think of Savannah specifically, since

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Speaker 1: many people believe they know her or seen her on

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Speaker 1: TV so much, having seen her heart wrenching, please to

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Speaker 1: find her mother. There was a lot said in that.

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Speaker 1: I heard the date January eleven mentioned now again Nano saying,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, well, maybe the guy wasn't on the front

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Speaker 1: porch January eleven. But you know what, I had a

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Speaker 1: guest in the last twenty four hours, Joe Scott, you

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Speaker 1: were with me? That says it was mister Lemi that

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Speaker 1: stated FBI asked him about January eleven. He a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are attacking him, of course online I say,

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Speaker 1: and saying that he made that. No, he was asked

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Speaker 1: to review his video and he did, and he discovered

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Speaker 1: after FBI requesting it, and he reviewed it. That was

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Speaker 1: one of the very few times that and the night

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Speaker 1: of the kidnap, that on those two nights alone, his

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Speaker 1: dog went crazy and wanted to go outside. He also

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Speaker 1: said the FBI asked him about that date, even though

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Speaker 1: Nanos says, yeah, he's backtracking. Maybe it wasn't that date,

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Speaker 1: but Savannah is mentioning that date as well. That date

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Speaker 1: is significant and I'm learning a lot from this most

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Speaker 1: recent statement. Do you believe that this statement has been

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Speaker 1: specifically issued because law enforcement is no longer giving any

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Speaker 1: information out There are no more no pressers, So Savannah

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Speaker 1: and her brother and sister are trying to keep the

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Speaker 1: search alive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. Just imagine somebody doing chess compressions here.

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Speaker 4: They're trying to breathe life or sustain life in this investigation,

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Speaker 4: and information, incoming information and also outgoing information are always

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Speaker 4: the life's blood of any of any kind of investigation. Answer,

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Speaker 4: And yeah, it's not just about her making a statement

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Speaker 4: like this This is something that her people are telling

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Speaker 4: her to do, to reference back to her mother, to

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Speaker 4: keep this case alive. I do not hold with all

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Speaker 4: of these people out there saying that this is a

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Speaker 4: cold case. You want to talk about cold cases, I'll

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Speaker 4: talk to you about cold cases. This is not, I repeat,

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Speaker 4: a cold k stop saying it. All right. At this point,

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Speaker 4: I know that many weeks have gone by, the media

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Speaker 4: is begging for more data. This is not a cold case,

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Speaker 4: not the way a cold case is handled. At this point, Tom,

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Speaker 4: there's still life here, there's still hope. There's a possibility

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Speaker 4: of some type of conclusion. None of us can guarantee

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Speaker 4: what that conclusion will be, but yet there's still data

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Speaker 4: to be gleaned. It's not a cold case.

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Speaker 1: Back to the issue, and the issue is what is

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Speaker 1: Savannah stating and this most recent plea to Rivis Gibbons

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Speaker 1: joining us USPA nationwide security, she mentioned several days which

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Speaker 1: belong contradict what Nana's is saying that Jan twenty four,

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Speaker 1: Jan eleventh, Yeah, we're not sure about that anymore. She

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Speaker 1: specifically says Jan eleven specifically and Jan. Thirty one, which

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Speaker 1: leads me to believe that date is significant do you

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Speaker 1: agree or disagree and why the statement? Now?

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Speaker 5: Of course I agree that January eleventh is an important date,

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Speaker 5: and we know this as fact. At this point, the

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Speaker 5: FBI went door to door Todd, Mister Lemie, your guest

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Speaker 5: yesterday corroborated that looking for information about January eleventh. So

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Speaker 5: the fact that p MA County Sheriff Chris Nanos is

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Speaker 5: saying that that date doesn't necessarily mean anything, I don't

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Speaker 5: understand that statement. That date is clearly important and connected

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Speaker 5: to this case.

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Speaker 1: The Guthries holding on to hope that someone in the

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Speaker 1: community will hand over critical information about their mom. They

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Speaker 1: of course express gratitude to all the citizens. They name

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Speaker 1: specific dates, which contradict what Nanos is saying. Now they

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Speaker 1: are asking for renewed attention. They say, no detail is small,

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Speaker 1: It may be the key, It may be the key.

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Speaker 1: Many believe that this statement was timed because no more pressors,

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Speaker 1: no more information coming from law enforcement. Many people think

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Speaker 1: that the statement is coded in some way, just as

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Speaker 1: they speculated about an earlier plea by Savannah.

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Speaker 7: We received your message and we understand. We beg you

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Speaker 7: now to return our mother to us so that we

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Speaker 7: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we

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Speaker 7: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and

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Speaker 7: we will pay.

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Speaker 1: She may have been using code words, we know that

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Speaker 1: the authorities, specifically the FBI, helped her come up with

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Speaker 1: those statements. Savannah didn't just go rogue. That was very

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Speaker 1: carefully worded, as is the current statement that has just

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Speaker 1: been released. Well aside from helicopters taking to the ear,

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Speaker 1: the Guthries issuing a very carefully worded plea for information,

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Speaker 1: Let's take another look at those lights, specifically where we

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Speaker 1: have a pointer showing the lights behind the purpse shoulder.

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Speaker 1: There you go. Now I want to talk about what

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Speaker 1: we learned from mister Lemi. This is from Blue Star

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Speaker 1: eight twelve on X. By the way, thanks blue Star.

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Speaker 1: What did we learn last night from mister Let me.

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Speaker 2: If you're on Escalante and you directly stare from Nancy's

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Speaker 2: home up the street, that kind of there's a there's

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Speaker 2: a cul de sac above. If this on this camera

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Speaker 2: view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house

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Speaker 2: at the very very top of that cul de sac.

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Speaker 2: That's where construction is occurring.

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Speaker 1: So we see the construction site and the vacant property site.

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Speaker 1: Now do those lights coincide with either of those properties?

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Speaker 1: To Dave Matt from Crime Stories, what about.

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Speaker 3: It, Nancy, It's really it's very possible that those lights

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Speaker 3: line up where you can see or what appears to

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Speaker 3: be not a natural light, this is something that is

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Speaker 3: at an angle right there. I'm just amazed it's coming

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Speaker 3: from what appears to be the vacant house where the

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Speaker 3: construction work is being done.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Dave Matt, you said it could be

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Speaker 1: coming from the vacant house the construction site. Those are

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Speaker 1: two different things. Let's see the map again. It can't

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Speaker 1: be coming from both. So based on where her home is,

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Speaker 1: where the porch is, which is more likely, what's the

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Speaker 1: most likely source? Would it be the construction site or

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Speaker 1: the vacant property?

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Speaker 3: The construction site is what I meant. And if you

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Speaker 3: notice as the purp glances over the shoulder, it's like

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Speaker 3: that's where this light is coming in. And when he's moving,

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Speaker 3: we can see it. It's a stationary light. It's not moving.

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Speaker 3: He's moving.

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Speaker 1: Gotch you Okay, there are many scenarios which could create this.

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Speaker 1: It could be headlights, but yet it's not moving. But

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Speaker 1: there you see the per looking back at it. It could

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Speaker 1: still be headlights, even if the vehicle wasn't moving. That

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Speaker 1: could be the so called getaway car. Could it be

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Speaker 1: solar lights? Could it be a house light? To Todd

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Speaker 1: Shipley joining a cybercrime expert, how well can the FEDS

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Speaker 1: enhance that?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 6: I think with the technology we've got to day, they

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Speaker 6: can do a lot to identify what it possibly was.

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Speaker 6: If it was a car, maybe they can outline the

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Speaker 6: lens and try to figure out what it is. But

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Speaker 6: at the altitude that it's at, it's probably, as you're suggesting,

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Speaker 6: the construction site something down the street is. It doesn't

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Speaker 6: look low enough to be the street level, so it's

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Speaker 6: probably coming from that construction site. But they can do

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Speaker 6: a lot to make it look better and try to

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Speaker 6: figure out what it is. But again, like I said yesterday,

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Speaker 6: why didn't they notice this earlier? Why was this not

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Speaker 6: something that they looked at? What was the bias they

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Speaker 6: were looking at?

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Speaker 1: Hold on, hold On, Shipley? How do we know they

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Speaker 1: didn't notice it? I mean I haven't been tripping through

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Speaker 1: the FBI files, but for all we know they have

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Speaker 1: noticed it. And if they haven't, well they have Now

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Speaker 1: I want to use your brain On another issue, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about those tracks. Those tracks. We got

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Speaker 1: additional photos of the tracks outside Nancy Guthries home. Let's

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Speaker 1: see the additional There you go, there's one of them.

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Speaker 1: Let's keep looking, and I want you to notice that's

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Speaker 1: from Chillinois on X We've got several more. Keep looking.

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Speaker 1: That's the one we showed you last night. Now, very

396
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Speaker 1: concerning how this scene was treated, How was it's this

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Speaker 1: scene handled? When were these photos taken? When were the

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Speaker 1: tracks left behind? Extremely significant? Had the pizza delivery guy

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Speaker 1: come up there? Had the gravel been disturbed? What about it?

400
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, this is your Baillywick.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, looking at these, Nancy. Actually, now if you take

402
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Speaker 4: a look at that larger kind of panoramic view of

403
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: the tract, you can actually appreciate that it's got what

404
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: we refer to as kind of a curved or curved

405
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 4: linear pattern. And this is a bilinear track. So you've

406
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 4: got two tracks that are running parallel to one another,

407
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 4: and it's hard to judge from this angle, it's hard

408
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 4: to judge depth. But what I can tell you though

409
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Speaker 4: looking at this, and there's been a lot of speculation

410
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: about this is what we refer to in automotive terms

411
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Speaker 4: when we're doing automotive work. As far as investigations, it's

412
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Speaker 4: got a wheelbase, very specific wheelbase. What can we deduce

413
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 4: from that, Well, we've heard any number of things. I've

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Speaker 4: heard people say a wagon. Don't think it's a wagon.

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Speaker 4: I think probably two wheels. That could be a trash men.

416
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: I've heard a lot of chatter about that, and of

417
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 4: course what we mentioned yesterday, a wheelchair. Of course, if

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00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 4: you think about a wheelchair, you've got two separate tires.

419
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Speaker 4: Are you've actually got four, but they're on both sides,

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Speaker 4: and so as you turn this thing, the radius of

421
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 4: this thing is going to Readjust this looks like you're

422
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: talking about two wheels at this point, Tom. So what

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Speaker 4: could generate that? If they do the wheelbase assessment on

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Speaker 4: this and I hope that they did this at the

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00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 4: time because these tracks have probably been eradicated. Now, if

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Speaker 4: they did a measurement on this, that could put them

427
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 4: in the neighborhood of what it was what conveyant actually generated,

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Speaker 4: and that could point back to something specific. Did they

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Speaker 4: show up with these items in p that is a

430
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Speaker 4: perpetrator perhaps, or is this something that was left behind

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Speaker 4: as a result of dragging trash cans out the road.

432
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 4: But here's the problem, and this has been one of

433
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 4: the problems all the way along, Nancy, is that if

434
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 4: they didn't do it in the beginning, there's a problem

435
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: because you can't go back and undo what you haven't done.

436
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: It just doesn't make sense. And the fact that he

437
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 4: has stated he being to share that these are of

438
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: no consequence, I beg to differ, sir. They are significant

439
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: concepts because every bit of information that you can glean

440
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 4: from the scene is important to the investigation.

441
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: Fince the various conveyances that may have been used. For instance,

442
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: I get the significance of a wheelchair. I get that

443
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: did they bring it? Did she already have a wheelchair?

444
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: But I don't get the significance of, for instance, a dolly.

445
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: What would that be for now? One reason this could

446
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: be critical is because it does seem as if I

447
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: can advance, was used. Could we see the blood video

448
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: the video not the still because Brian, it seems as

449
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: if the blood trail stops where the conveyance the tracks

450
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: pick up. So was she then put in some sort

451
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: of conveyance, a wheelchair, something movable. Why do I care, Brian,

452
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: because someone else would likely have had to help the

453
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: porch guy. He couldn't do all of this on his own,

454
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: or could he?

455
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, this would definitely speak to a second subject being

456
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 5: there on the scene. And as Joe Scott Morgan pointed out,

457
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 5: identifying the width of that wheelbase, you know, is going

458
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 5: to help identify what that object was that was creating

459
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 5: those marks, and then can provide us a little bit

460
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 5: more of an insight into you know, the weight required

461
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 5: to create a depth of a tread that deep, and

462
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 5: how far they went? You know, where did it go?

463
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 5: Where did it begin? Where did it stop? So I

464
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 5: think it's very possible that some sort of conveyance was

465
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 5: used to bring Missus Guthrie from the door to the vehicle.

466
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: Another issue that has reared its head is a previous

467
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: armed robbery in the same area. Let's see the video

468
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: footage of that. Interesting this seems to have appeared in

469
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: broad daylight, very very different from them in the current case.

470
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: Dave Matt explained to me what this prior robbery.

471
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 5: Is, Nancy.

472
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: This group of robbers show up at the door, but

473
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: they do it in a very tactical way. First, a

474
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: woman goes to the door claiming to have a package

475
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: from Amazon. The homeowners do not answer the door as

476
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: they're not expecting anything from Amazon, so the person goes away.

477
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: A couple of weeks later, Okay, two weeks go by,

478
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: this is all in September. Two weeks go by and

479
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: the same woman in the same outfit shows up again,

480
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 3: but this time she's got a van that can be

481
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: seen on the ring doorbell camera out by the road

482
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: and a guy is in it. Now she goes to

483
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 3: the door again blaming to have an Amazon. This time

484
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: there are occupants of the home are not there, so

485
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: there's nobody in this house. The second time, this woman

486
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: shows up at the door. Forty five minutes later, Nancy,

487
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 3: this woman comes back. This time she's got men with

488
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: her in the van. The men go to the side

489
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 3: of the house and break in. They go into the home.

490
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: They get a safe, They get another jewelry and valuables

491
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: inside the home, and again remember this home is not

492
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 3: currently occupied, the owners are on vacation, the daughter is

493
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 3: away from the house. They the robbers. They ended up

494
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: pepper spraying the little dog. Pepper sprayng the dog. They

495
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: then escape and it took about two weeks for police

496
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 3: to track down the woman who was pretending to be

497
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 3: the Amazon delivery person. But the other three have not

498
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: been arrested. And this happened in the Catalina Foot Hills area,

499
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: not far ten minutes from Nancy Guthrie's house.

500
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: There are startling similarities, but overall, I would say a

501
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: lot of dissimilarities. In that case, I find it critical

502
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: to you, Fitzgibbons, that the other three perps were not apprehended,

503
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: and there are theories that as many as five purps

504
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: are responsible in the Nancy Guthrie kidnap. But Fitzgibbons, this

505
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: would mean that there are three perps still floating around

506
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: from this last armed robbery. There are a lot of

507
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: dissimilarities as well, Brian, what do you make of it?

508
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, certainly definitely enough here to at least tell us

509
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 5: that what's possible and what's possible to avoid detection and

510
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 5: apprehension by law enforcement right that there are three of

511
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 5: these subjects still walking amongst the residents of Tucson right now.

512
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 7: Someone needs to do the right thing. We are in agony, Yeah,

513
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 7: we are in agony. It is unbearable and to think

514
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 7: of what she went through. I wake up every night,

515
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 7: in the middle of the night, every night, and in

516
00:34:49,400 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 7: the darkness, I imagine her terror, and it is unthinkable,

517
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 7: but those thoughts demand to be thought, and I will

518
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 7: hid in my face that she needs to come home now.

519
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: Yes, that from my friends at today YouTube Savannah issuing

520
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: another plea, begging people for help and describing the anguish

521
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: her family has been endearing since her mother vanished in

522
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. At this hour, we understand

523
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: that l E is re examining potential headlights behind the

524
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: porch guy's shoulder. Let's take a look at that, and

525
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: if possible, control room, please slow mow the porch guy. There.

526
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: You see the lights that many people observe first looking

527
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: light head lights. Keep watching the lights, the porch guy

528
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: fumbling around. Many people with the naked eye believe that

529
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: they see the lights actually moving, and if you look carefully,

530
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: it does appear as if a car is inching forward.

531
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: We also see the porch guy looking back over his

532
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: shoulder at the lights. Last night, we heard theories that

533
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: those lights were actually solar powered lights that would gain

534
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: power during the day from the sun and then they

535
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: would shine during the night, we heard theories that those

536
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: were lights that are continuously kept on at a construction site.

537
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a listen to our

538
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: friend mister Lemie, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor.

539
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: If you're on Escalante and you directly there from Nancy's

540
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: home up the street, that kind of there's a there's

541
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: a cul de sac above. If this on this camera

542
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house

543
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: at the very very top of that cul de sac.

544
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: That's where construction is occurring.

545
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight, Brian fitz Gibbons, Director Operations USP, A

546
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: nationwide security leading a team of investigators around the world

547
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: finding and extracting missing people. Former marine Iraqi war ve.

548
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: What would be the significance if in fact those lights

549
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: are moving.

550
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, it does appear to me that these lights are moving.

551
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 5: And it's important to remember when you see this now

552
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 5: in regular speed and you see the lights appear, there's

553
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 5: quite a bit of vegetation on that side of Misco

554
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 5: three's property, so it's very plausible that that vehicle is

555
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 5: coming down Escalante and then the lights are hidden and

556
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 5: obscured by the trees there.

557
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: Fitz did you explain the significance.

558
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 5: If they're moving, the significance there would be It would

559
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 5: certainly add credibility to the theory that there was a

560
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 5: second perpetrator here and that that was indeed a vehicle

561
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 5: that was involved in this abduction.

562
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight special guest Jeff Martin. He's joining us

563
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: out of Grand Rapid. Certified digital forensics expert over twenty

564
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: years of experience. He specializes in cell phone forensics, computer forensics, cybersecurity,

565
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: and more. Instructor Davenport University Wow. You can find him

566
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: at Jeff Martin c FCEE and at Jeffrey Michael Martin

567
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: on instat at Jeff March. Jeff, thank you for being

568
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: with us tonight. The possibility that those lights are in

569
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: fact a vehicle opens up a wide range of potential

570
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: digital evidence as to who was up there, not who

571
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: was at her doorstep, but who was up there explain.

572
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 8: Right, So it ultimately opens up the crime scene. Right

573
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 8: If that vehicle or those lights are you believed to

574
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 8: be involved in the event, then that opens up the

575
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 8: crime scene to that construction site, and there is a

576
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 8: potential for investigating digital evidence footprints in and around that

577
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 8: construction site.

578
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, Jeff Martin, the degree to which the

579
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: construction site was secured. I mean, think about it, Jeff,

580
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: we didn't even have this video until somehow. It's Franklin

581
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: a miracle that, out of the literally trillions of data points, Google,

582
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: not law enforcement, but Google managed to find Nancy Guthrie's

583
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: ports video and then resurrect, like Lazarus, for Pete's sake,

584
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: resurrect the video. So I see no reason why law

585
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: enforcement would have secured the construction site as a potential

586
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: tertiary crime scene.

587
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 8: Correct, I mean, you know, ultimately, until they know that

588
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 8: that site is potentially involved, then they may have not

589
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 8: identified it as something to even investigate, let alone secure

590
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 8: as a crime scene.

591
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at the map again, Jeff. And

592
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: I'm not throwing a stone at right now anyway at

593
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: Nanosu's outfit, because at that time I don't believe that

594
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: they had any reason to secure the construction site, although

595
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: it should certainly have been investigated right at the beginning,

596
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: along with the vacant property. But look at location the

597
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: middle red marker Guthrie home above it, the construction site,

598
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: and if life is given says he sees movement. It

599
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: would have been the car moving forward toward the cul

600
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: de sac and toward Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, how does

601
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: that fit in Jeff Martin with potentially capturing digital events.

602
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 8: Well, you take digital digital evidence can be just about

603
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 8: anywhere these days. And you know, I'll give the example

604
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 8: of cell phone digital evidence, cell phone tower digital evidence,

605
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 8: just that location alone. The construction site location alone could

606
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 8: be operating on a different cell phone tower, for example,

607
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 8: and if law enforcement hadn't identified that early on, then

608
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 8: that may be something that they could go back and

609
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 8: look at as far as digital evidence there. Then you

610
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 8: take the vehicle for example, depending on what type of

611
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 8: vehicle is, there could be a lot of digital evidence

612
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 8: from that vehicle. Now unfortunately we can't really identify what

613
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 8: type of make model the vehicle is, but you know,

614
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 8: that's just another avenue of digital evidence. Take the construction

615
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 8: site alone. Does the construction site have digital devices on

616
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 8: the construction site? Some construction site these days they leave

617
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 8: equipment on site. Are those is that equipment secured with

618
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 8: you know, digital devices? Does the construction company have maybe

619
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 8: Wi Fi set up so that the construction workers have

620
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 8: the ability to you know, communicate. You know, there are

621
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 8: a lot of different things that we could speculate on

622
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 8: as far as what type of digital evidence could be

623
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 8: available at that site.

624
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Jeff Martin, you just went deaf coom four on me.

625
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: You're going warp speed. Could you explain what you were

626
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: saying about digital evidence at the construction site?

627
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 7: Right?

628
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 9: So?

629
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 8: You know, some construction companies, in order to secure their equipment,

630
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 8: you know, they want to leave their equipment on site

631
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 8: so they're not transporting it back and forth. Some of

632
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 8: them secure their construction sites with digital devices, such as

633
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 8: security cameras or digital lots and such. Some construction companies

634
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 8: today use digital time cards, where employees show up and

635
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 8: they tap a digital device to enter in their time

636
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 8: on site or off site. You know, I'm just spitballing here.

637
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 8: With the amount of digital evidence that I've seen in

638
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 8: numerous investigations, What could be or what as I would

639
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 8: have as a law enforcement investigation, what I would be

640
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 8: thinking about trying to determine what type of digital evidence

641
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 8: would be available at that construction site.

642
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: You know, you also mentioned for all we know, and

643
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible the construction site was most connected to

644
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: a different cell tower. Why would that be significant?

645
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 8: Well, I just use that as an example, right, so

646
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 8: you know, I'm sure the law enforcement has done a

647
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 8: cell phone tower investigation surrounding Savannah or Nancy Gothrie's home,

648
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 8: and what that entails is they typically try to determine,

649
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 8: you know, on the night of or the morning of

650
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 8: February first, what cell phones were connected to the tower

651
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 8: that services that home. That I think would have been

652
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 8: done by law enforcement early on. Now, one possibility, if

653
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 8: there is more than one tower servicing the area surrounding

654
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 8: Nancy Gothrie's home, is that construction site might be serviced

655
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 8: by a different cell phone tower than Nancy Gothrie's home.

656
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 8: Is just based on the serviceability and the signal strength

657
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 8: of cell phone towers. It's just in the realm of possibility,

658
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 8: something that I would think about if I was an

659
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 8: investigator in this investigation.

660
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: In addition to the lights behind the porch guy's shoulder

661
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: reportedly moving inching seemingly forward. Now, of course the FBI

662
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: will be able to enhance that, no end, how do

663
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: they do that? Jeff Martin.

664
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 8: Ultimately there's software out there that video experts will use

665
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 8: to enhance video and you know, get rid of the noise,

666
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 8: get rid of the clarification, mess with the lighting so

667
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 8: that you can enhance the area of the video where

668
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 8: the headlights are. You know, they can get they can

669
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 8: adjust contrasts and saturation, colors and all of those levels

670
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 8: that are usually present in video.

671
00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: Also, we are learning that signal jammers emit a certain frequency.

672
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: And as I was researching last night, I saw sign

673
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: Wizard six on Twitter come up with a very unique

674
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: theory that dogs can be affected or respond to such frequencies.

675
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: That made me think about what neighbor Jeff Lami told us.

676
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: Preceding the event. There were some evenings where our dogs

677
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: woke up, which was highly unusual. We don't know if

678
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 2: there's a correlation. I know the FBI and the investigators

679
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: have asked for cameras and camera footage. All the neighbors

680
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: have shared camera footage and any recollection they have. The

681
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 2: dogs did rouse and I took them out. There's a

682
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: image of me on camera. I did heard nothing or

683
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 2: saw nothing. But you know, animals can be especially dogs

684
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: can be hyper sensitive. Yeah, and also some of the

685
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: other evenings that we've been questioned about. I'm working from

686
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: memory again, I believe January eleventh was another date that

687
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 2: was in question. So we had this activity at that time,

688
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: and you know human nature, we just folowed away and

689
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: didn't really think about this until we were asked to

690
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: review our video and then had this recollection and saw

691
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: this correlation which was very unusual.

692
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: On January eleven and January thirty one, both nights, your

693
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: dog's uncharacteristically wanted to go outside. Yes, and that was

694
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: very atypical. Yes, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining us

695
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: now special guest doctor Kendall Crowns. He is a chief

696
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: medical examiner in Terrance County, Texas. That's Fort Worth, never

697
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: lack of business in the Morgue there. He is the

698
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: star of hit podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. He is

699
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: the esteemed Lecturer at the Burnette School of Medicine at TCU.

700
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendle Crowns, thank you for being with us. What

701
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: do you make of the suggestion that dogs, as we know,

702
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: we see them when they respond to dog whistles that

703
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: people can't hear, and they react very violently, very agitated

704
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: when they hear those whistles. Would they respond or start

705
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: barking or want to go outside. If a signal GM

706
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 1: or emitted a similar frequency, well.

707
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 10: The answer is yes. Any radio frequency that may be

708
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 10: inaudible to human beings can be picked up by dogs

709
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 10: because because of their sensitive hearing, they can hear a

710
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 10: wide spectrum of sounds that we cannot even hear or

711
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 10: whatever be able to hear. And these sounds emitted by

712
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 10: radio frequency devices can disrupt their sleep, cause agitation, and

713
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 10: make them upset and cause them to bark. So it

714
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 10: could very well be a radio frequency that's being omitted

715
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 10: can't be heard by human beings, but the dogs pick

716
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 10: up on it and it upsets them and they start

717
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 10: barking or wake up and start barking. So yes, dogs

718
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 10: are very sensitive to things like that.

719
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 1: So they're not only their noses, but their ears are

720
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: much much more sensitive than those of humans.

721
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 10: Yes, a dog's hearing is very acute. They can pick

722
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 10: up very high pitched sounds, very low sounds that are

723
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 10: way beyond the spectrum of human hearing. So dogs are

724
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 10: very sensitive to their environment in numerous ways that we

725
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 10: won't even ever understand.

726
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: Probably, you know, I'm very curious Saw Brave has gibbons.

727
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: If ajam Or was used. There's so much we're going

728
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: to be able to learn from that. For instance, the

729
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: direction the part was going. If jammer was used. And

730
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: now we're having Lemi and other neighbors all stating that

731
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: their WiFi went out at the same time that Nancy

732
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: Duthrie was kidnapped. It would it be able to show

733
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: us a direction, Brian, for instance, if it was jamming

734
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: along the route.

735
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, we will hopefully be able to get some data

736
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 5: from the devices in the houses. These would be the

737
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 5: Wi Fi terminals that connect that house to the Internet.

738
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 5: That potentially what would be recoverable are those data points

739
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 5: of when service was disrupted and that could point to

740
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 5: a direction that the jammer came in or went out from.

741
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: Jeff Martin everyone certified Digital forensics expert, twenty years in

742
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: the business. Jeff again, thanks for being with us tonight.

743
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: Now we've heard what doctor Kendall Crown said, medical doctor

744
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: regarding the possibility the frequency would affect the dogs hearing,

745
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: But in what other ways could that not have affected

746
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: the dogs?

747
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 8: Well, with regards to the signal jammer, what you potentially

748
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 8: could have is dogs are highly receptive to things that

749
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 8: we can't hear or things that we can't sense. And

750
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 8: if a signal jammer is in operation, you know, they

751
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 8: may or may not be able to hear the exact

752
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 8: signal gammer itself, but they could be picking up on

753
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 8: the residual effect of that signal jammer, such as the

754
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 8: devices that are being affected by the signal jammer could

755
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 8: be experiencing issues and they're trying to self correct themselves,

756
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 8: so they start to speed up a little bit. And

757
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 8: you know, when I listened to the doctor described that,

758
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 8: that is what came to my mind, is if all

759
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 8: of these devices are starting to act different because their

760
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 8: signals being jammed, then that is certainly something that I

761
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 8: could see. A dog and I'm by no means a

762
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 8: dog expert senses as something different, something that that dog

763
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 8: has not heard before in the span of his or

764
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 8: her life. And that is a potential, you know, indication

765
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 8: that something was not right that night and that.

766
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: Time, guys, another issue has reared its ugly head. Was

767
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: DNA overlooked on the foliage outside Nancy Guthrie's home? And

768
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: also tonight what does an Amazon delivery have to do

769
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: with anything? But first with me, Tammy Ballard, she is

770
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: a DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation reconstructionist, former

771
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab. Okay, Tammy,

772
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: look with me. See the porch guy grabbing foliage leaves

773
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: and taking it up to there? You go? Okay, and

774
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: they call him a professional. I don't buy it. But

775
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: is there any way, especially in light of the fact

776
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: that he kept mouthing a bite light. Is there any

777
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: way having put the byte light in his mouth, taken

778
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,760
Speaker 1: it out in his mouth, taken it out, then picks

779
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: up the foliage. We know he's got on gloves, but

780
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 1: that does not preclude transfer of DNA from his person

781
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: to the tips of the fingertips of those gloves. Can

782
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: you get DNA off foliage? Tammy?

783
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 9: Unfortunately, this field is going to be filled with people

784
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 9: that will tell you no. But I would challenge any

785
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:04,959
Speaker 9: DNA analyst, any investigator to prove that. I don't ever

786
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 9: tell somebody no, because unless I've done it and been unsuccessful,

787
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 9: I won't say that you can't get DNA. The transfer

788
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 9: is there, most likely, but it's a matter of being

789
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 9: very cautious, being very thorough and finding that DNA. So

790
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 9: I have done a lot of items in my lifetime,

791
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 9: thousands of items I've worked on for DNA, and I've

792
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 9: had some strange requests, and I've blown my own mind,

793
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 9: if you will, because sometimes like we used to say, no,

794
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 9: we can't get DNA from rocks. Now you can get

795
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 9: DNA from rocks. It just has to have a case

796
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 9: that brings it forward where somebody actually does the DNA

797
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 9: and says, oh, look, yes we can and this is

798
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 9: a probative item.

799
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 8: So I would say that those.

800
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 9: Plants should be evaluated for DNA and hope they could

801
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 9: recover them with the technology that is available today.

802
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: Something like MVAC might be a value. Well you know what,

803
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: Timmy Ballard, You're right, you just blew my mind. I

804
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: didn't think of trying an MVAC. And it's so obvious.

805
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: How would an MVAC potentially work on foliage.

806
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 9: It depends on the surface area of those leaves on

807
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 9: that foliage. But you know, the MVAC is designed to

808
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 9: collect every cell. You could also use an alternate light

809
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 9: source if it is transferred from saliva. That's something that

810
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 9: should give you some sort of fluorescence to maybe hone

811
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 9: in on a particular area so you can kind of

812
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 9: control your surface area, but the MVAC is designed to

813
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 9: collect every cell.

814
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 5: I don't know if MVAC.

815
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 9: Has been used on plant material, but I bet you

816
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 9: they'd be willing to try. So it has to be

817
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 9: somebody who's willing to go forward and say, you know what,

818
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 9: we haven't tried it, so we can't say no.

819
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 1: Well, you brought up another theory, a possibility of using

820
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: alternate light light source, and what she's talking about this

821
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: is what it would look like. You typically do it

822
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 1: in the dark or semi darkness, and you shine an

823
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: alternate light source, which means basically, not your lamp, not

824
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: your overhead light. It's a do any of you remember

825
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: black light posters something like that. That's what you see

826
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: DNA saliva and other DNA. They fluoresce. They fluoresce, that's

827
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: a verb like fluorescent light. They fluoresce, and you see

828
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: them in the semi darkness when you use this alternate

829
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: light source. I don't see why that would not work

830
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,720
Speaker 1: on plants. Skeptical regarding an MVACT, but I don't see

831
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: why als would not work on those plants if there

832
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: is DNA there. DNA is very sensitive. I've been holding

833
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: this pen my DNA is on it. If I take

834
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: a bite light out of my mouth repeatedly and put

835
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: it back in, I'm getting my saliva on my fingertips.

836
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 1: Then you pick up the foliage. It's just that simple.

837
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: If the foliage has been secured and taken into evidence,

838
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: which I doubt because we didn't get this video until

839
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: weeks later from Google. But you know you brought this up,

840
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard. You invited this question. What's one of the

841
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: craziest things you've been asked to evaluate for DNA.

842
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 9: Well, I think I'm probably one of the I think

843
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 9: I'm the only DNA analyst in the country, maybe the world,

844
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 9: who was able to obtain DNA from melted biological tissue

845
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 9: for the Cartel. So we had two individuals that were

846
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 9: melted in acid, and I obtained a DNA profile from

847
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 9: the melted tissue.

848
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 5: So it was probably.

849
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 9: My most unique and most difficult I've had a lot

850
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 9: of challenging samples. But that's why I will never tell somebody, no,

851
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 9: you can't get DNA unless I've tried, or I know

852
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 9: somebody who's tried and not succeeded.

853
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: You know, Timmy Ballard, I know that using an MVAT

854
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: on foliage is not SOP standard operating procedure, but it

855
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: has been done, right, it has been done.

856
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 9: Yes, it has been done. And I will say on

857
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 9: items that I have actually swabbed myself the traditional methods

858
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 9: where I've taken two wet swabs and swabbed, you know,

859
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 9: let's say a rock that was from a homicide. I've

860
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 9: covered some of that surface area is best that I

861
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 9: can and obtained results that weren't sufficient for DNA testing

862
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 9: or comparison. And someone has used the MVAC after that

863
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 9: and obtained sufficient DNA. So it is designed to collect

864
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 9: everything that could be missed from swabbing an item.

865
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: Right, And MVAC is that actually a microbial vacuum system.

866
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: It's like a handbag, and it has located viruses and

867
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:35,919
Speaker 1: toxins on foliage, specifically lime and acorn leaves, so it

868
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: can pick up DNA off foliage. It's rare, but it

869
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: has been done, and it can be done very quickly.

870
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, what can you tell me about an

871
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: electricians permit for work done just before Nancy Guthrie goes missing.

872
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 3: During the month of January, Nancy security work was being

873
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 3: done by an electionlectrician inside Nancy Guthries' home. An entire

874
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 3: electrical panel had to be replaced and updated and upgraded.

875
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 3: That required some special tools, a couple of days of work.

876
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 3: Don't know how many people were on the electricians crew,

877
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 3: but we know of at least one certainly because that

878
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 3: was the contract and the work was finished just before

879
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 3: Nancy Guthrie went missing.

880
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Ryan, it's Gibbons. I don't like coincidences as it

881
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: relates to disappearances or violent crimes. I don't like coincidences.

882
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: An electricians work crew was in and around her home

883
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: and then she goes missing. That's got to be investigated.

884
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 5: Absolutely. They're going to know the name of everybody associated

885
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 5: with that account and also really who knew that the

886
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 5: work was being done at missus Guthries and who have

887
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 5: potentially could have known the connection to Savannah. You know

888
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 5: who you saw the sales slip, who even saw the

889
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 5: work order? Everyone at that contractor will certainly be interviewed

890
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 5: and looked.

891
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: At day Matt let me throw you and Jeff Martin

892
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: unlike you, Rinch, let me throw you a curveball. Was

893
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: there an Amazon delivery at Nancy Guthrie's home the morning

894
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: before she's kidnapped. She's kidnapped that night.

895
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 3: That morning, Nancy, what appears to be an Amazon delivery

896
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 3: box is pictured. There you go on the front porch

897
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 3: where we found the video of porch got This is

898
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 3: shocking evidence that it was there.

899
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: Okay, of course we're going to have to time it

900
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: out and find out when the package got there. But

901
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: to Jeff Martin, digital forensics expert instructor Davenport University, Jeff Martin,

902
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that the delivery driver spotted anyone skulking around.

903
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: But Jeff, we know that authorities have asked for information

904
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: about vehicles and more as it relates to ten a m.

905
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: The morning she's kidnapped. Later that night, ten am. Isn't

906
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: it true that many delivery trucks such as Amazon, keeps

907
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 1: video like an Uber car keeps a video of what's

908
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: happening to say, yes, here, I am here, I did

909
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: deliver your package. So you telling me you didn't get

910
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,439
Speaker 1: it is a lie. Here I am doing it. Many

911
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: of them have video to document deliveries.

912
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 8: Right, Definitely, images, Nancy. You know a standard practice is

913
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 8: the Amazon driver will take a picture of the package

914
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 8: sitting where they left it right, just to prove that

915
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 8: they delivered it. And Amazon vehicles. I work a lot

916
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 8: of cases involving Amazon delivery trucks getting into accidents, and

917
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 8: not a lot of them have camera recording type systems,

918
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 8: but that's certainly a possibility. Other things to note are

919
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 8: not just Amazon delivers for Amazon. Amazon farms out a

920
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 8: lot of their deliveries. I, you know, happen to have

921
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 8: a wife that we tend to get Amazon packages almost

922
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 8: every day, and a lot of times the Amazon delivery

923
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 8: drivers are in personal vehicles or rented vehicles, and of

924
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 8: course all of those vehicles have the potential to have

925
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 8: video recording devices built into them as well as you know,

926
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 8: other digital evidence. But also the Amazon driver. You would

927
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 8: be really important to talk to the Amazon driver, you know,

928
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 8: determine who would who delivered the package and what did

929
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 8: you see that when you delivered that package. Did you

930
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 8: see an electric you know, a construction vehicle parked near

931
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 8: the house. Did you see an electricians vehicle parked near

932
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 8: the house. You know, we had the electrical repair conducted

933
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 8: on the on Discovery's house shortly before the incident. Maybe

934
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 8: one of their vehicles came back to surveil or you know,

935
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 8: there's all kinds of possibilities with regards to digital not

936
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 8: just digital. Evin.

937
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I'm looking at specifically, not that they may

938
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 1: or may not have caught the actual perpse strolling along

939
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: the street, but the vehicle, because research reveals Amazon delivery

940
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: vehicles are equipped with AI powered cameras. It is the

941
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 1: Netrodyne drivery system. It has four high diff lenses with

942
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: a three to sixty degree, a two seventy degree carriage

943
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: of the road, the size, the driver, and they record

944
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: continuously while the ignition is on BAM. So what I

945
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: want to know is when that package arrived and if

946
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: there's anything probative, not just when the Amazon driver pulls

947
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: up to Nancy Guthries's home, but along the route. Do

948
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 1: you see the possibilities, Brian, It'sgibbons absolutely.

949
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 5: And you know it's important to remember we have we've

950
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 5: had time to analyze some of this new this evidence.

951
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 5: It's been around for a while, right, think about how

952
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 5: much more time investigators from the FBI now at their

953
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 5: office in Phoenix able to dissect and analyze this. I

954
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 5: think that this, you know, if you see what we

955
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 5: can do here there will be more possibilities with federal investigators.

956
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the

957
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy three, please call anonymous FBI eight hundred

958
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: two two five five three two four two two five

959
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 1: five three two four or five two zero eight eight

960
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: two seven four sixty three five two zero eight eight

961
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: two seven four six three. There is a one point

962
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward for information leading to the

963
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. Thank you to our guest tonight,

964
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: but especially to you for being with us and helping

965
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: us keep the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray

966
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 1: signing off, but I'll see tomorrow night, and until then,

967
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: good night for me.