1 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. This is the story this week. 2 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk about batteries, from the supply chain 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: to the geostrategic consequences of growing demand in everything from 4 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: drones to data centers, to evs and of course humanoid robots. 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: My guest today has reported on it all. Nicholas Narcos 6 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: is the author of a new book, The Elements of Power, 7 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: A Story of war, technology and the dirtiest supply chain 8 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: on Earth. Now that last phrase caught some people by surprise. 9 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: After all, batteries power electric vehicles, reducing the world's dependence 10 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: on fossil fuels aka cleaner energy, at least in theory. 11 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: Here's Nicholas defending the book's title. 12 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: This is the duty supply chain on Earth because in 13 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: many ways this is the most brutal of the energy 14 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: supply chains. Because you don't have children going out to 15 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: dig oil wells. You don't have you know, pregnant women 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 2: being forced to scrub oil. I don't even know what 17 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: that would look like. But you just, at a very 18 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: very basic human level down the supply chain, there are 19 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: some terrible things that are going on, and of course 20 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: oil has these terrible geopolitical effects of course it has 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: environmental effects, but I think that you know, the point 22 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 2: that I'm trying to submit them to make with a 23 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: duty supply chain on Earth is that it just has 24 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: all these other human rights things and these are things 25 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: that we can solve. Again, that's the whole point of 26 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: the book, is that we're trying to solve for those 27 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: things rather than just accepting them. 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: And not everyone is just accepting them. There are moves 29 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: towards different types of battery technology that demand you of 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: critical metals, and there are people attempting to clean up 31 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: the supply chain. But just in case you're in any 32 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: doubt about what a big story this is, batteries and 33 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: the supplied chain of the rare earth metals needed to 34 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: build them loom over President Trump's designs on greenland and 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: the trade war with China. This is a story about 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: who pays the price when technology and geopolitics collide. Here's 37 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: my conversation with Nicholas Niakos. Nick, Welcome to Textuff. Congratulations 38 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: on your book. 39 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me back on. 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: That's your third appearance on an ODDS podcast. I know 41 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: it's a great honor. The first one was in twenty 42 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: twenty When were you doing your nyorkerpiece. 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: It was twenty twenty one, Yeah, just before I actually 44 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: pitched the book. 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: And now it's a printed book. 46 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: Now it's a printed book. 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: The Elements of Power, a story of war, technology and 48 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: the dirtiest supply chain on Earth. Why is it worth reading? 49 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: It's worth reading because I would say it is the 50 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: most comprehensive look at a massive subject. But what is 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: really interesting is that this has become a hot button 52 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: political issue, and you know, the White House is involved 53 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: in it, the Chinese are involved in it, and really 54 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: the race for critical metals is on. 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: You've written the search for oil defined the twentieth century, 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: The scramble for critical metals may well define the twenty 57 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: first Why are these critical metals critical? 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 2: So these critical metals are critical because that's basically where 59 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: we get our energy from, how our devices are powered, 60 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: how our devices run. It depends which metal we're talking about. 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: But you know, cobalt, which I focus on a lot 62 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: in the book, is used to create cathodes for electric 63 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: devices and some electric cars. Cathodes are the positive electrode 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: of the battery. It basically allows you to push pack 65 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: a huge amount of power into these very small devices. 66 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: But cobalt is used in military applications, it's used for metals, 67 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: it's used for cleaning oil and so on and so forth. 68 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: So it's really an important industrial metal beyond just batteries. 69 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: I just focus on batteries because batteries have become central 70 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: to the way that we live our lives every day. 71 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: We wouldn't have cell phones, we wouldn't have long range 72 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: electric cars, we wouldn't have laptops, we wouldn't have aura rings. 73 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: We wouldn't have all these things without being able to 74 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 2: access a supply of these metals. 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: Right. I remember growing up and batteries were branded durro cell, 76 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: and they went into game boys and remote control cars 77 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: and fire alarms. They were like small things that allowed 78 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: you to do other things. But it feels like in 79 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: the last two or three years, batteries have become like 80 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: the central preoccupation of our time. The storage of power 81 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: i e. Batteries become so much more important than the 82 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: last ten years. 83 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: I think it didn't become more important. I think that 84 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: the move away from internnel combustion engines towards electro vehicles, 85 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: which really did you know? Again, when I was starting 86 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: the book, there were very you know, very few of 87 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 2: us had been in a tesla. I think in tesla once. 88 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: Basically this was five years ago. 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: This was five years ago, and now every other uber 90 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: in New York City is a tesla. And people, I 91 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: think were only really became aware of lithium ion batteries 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: when the Samsung Galaxy S seven was catching fire on planes. 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: That was sort of the moment when people like, wait 94 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: a second, what are these batteries? So why has it 95 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: become such a focus now? I think it's just a 96 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: confluence of all these different things. And I think on 97 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: a sort of political level, the US has become self 98 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: sufficient with oil as well, and because of fracking and 99 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: so on, so there's much less of a fear around 100 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: access to Middle East oil and these things that really 101 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: defined the oil wars of the seventies and sixties. 102 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: But I mean, if you look at the last twelve 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: months of geopolitics, You've had Trump's designs on Greenland at 104 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: front and center. Trump's recent peace deal in Congo quite 105 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: interesting for critical metals, China's export controls on critical metals 106 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, but then also Venezuela. In this preoccupation 107 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: with oil. So, coming back to that quote about you know, 108 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: the search for oil defining the twentieth century, in the 109 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: twenty first century being defined by critical metals, how do 110 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: those things coexist. 111 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I think oil is still very, very valuable. 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: I think it's just Trump sees oil and he sees dollars. 113 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: I think that's the more basic thing there. I think 114 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 2: critical metals also have the same effect on him, but 115 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: it's a little bit more difficult to explain. I think, 116 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: you know, for that generation, you grow up thinking, Okay, 117 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 2: we need as much oil as possible. And he's certainly 118 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: not moving away from oil. That's definitely not his aim. 119 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think he looks around 120 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: and he sees companies like Dasler, He sees you know, 121 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: tech companies, which are the backbone of the US economy basically, 122 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: and he says, look, this is this is an important thing, 123 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: and we're also going to fight for them, knowing. 124 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: Over the years you've said to me in one one 125 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: way or another many times, China more or less has 126 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: a lock on DRC's critical minerals, in particular cobalt and lithium. 127 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: Lithium, they had a lock on it until this US 128 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: company now got involved. Let's see, let's see what happens. 129 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that basically exporting these minerals from Congo and 130 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: refining them in China was the key driver, alongside the 131 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of technological advances of China dominance of this very 132 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: important supply chain. Fast forward to this year, earlier or 133 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: late last year, and Trump gets involved in a very 134 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: underreported i would say, peace deal between Congo, the DLC, 135 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: and Rwanda and its proxies, the M twenty three in 136 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: return for basically Congo saying we will make these minerals 137 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: available to you rather than to China. Yeah. 138 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: I think that's how the Americans want that deal to 139 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: be going. I think Chisicadi has come under a lot 140 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: of criticism in Congo itself for what people say is 141 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: mortgaging the resources of Congo in order for him to 142 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: stay in power, because I think there's also a question 143 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: about his own legitimacy as president. I think the Americans 144 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: are happy to work with him, but the question is, 145 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: well they follow through on the deal. And then the 146 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: second part of the question that you are asking is, 147 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: you know, refining in China still ninety percent of the 148 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: refining of these metals happens in China. So even if 149 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: the US gets a hold of the raw supply of 150 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: these things through some kind of chicanery and weird deal 151 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: in which the Congles agreed to dispossess the Chinese of 152 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 2: the minds that they've been given and so on and 153 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: so forth, you would have a situation in which either 154 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: the US would have to invest very, very heavily in 155 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: building battery refineries in the US or in an allied 156 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: country or something like that, or they would be shipping 157 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: the metals to China, which is the most economical thing 158 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: to do. So it's either Trump follows up this deal 159 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: with saying, Okay, I'm going to do ten pilot projects 160 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: and give them all like twenty billion dollars to you know, 161 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: build up these factories and be the most you know, 162 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: developed battery factories in the world. But do people in 163 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: the US want to do that. I imagine there are some yes, 164 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 2: but I'm not sure whether the capacity is that it is. 165 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: It is absolutely shocking how far behind the US and 166 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: Europe is in terms of research, in terms of the 167 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: amount of researchers. I mean, BYD one hundred and eighty 168 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: thousand researchers. 169 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: BYD began as a battery manufacturer and became the largest 170 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: EV manufacturer in the world. 171 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and they have one hundred and eighty thousand researchers, 172 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: which is more than the entire country of Germany. In fact, 173 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: COTL has eighteen thousand battery PhD worker like workers, so 174 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: it's just a thousand battery PhD. It's just it's absolutely 175 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: insane the amount of people who are working on this. 176 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: It's absolutely amount of insane, the amount of investment that 177 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: they put in their technologies. I spoke to Shirley Meng, 178 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: who is a really top battery scientist for this book 179 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: at ar Gone National Lab and she was just like, 180 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 2: we don't have anything like this in the US, and 181 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: ARGON is kind of the premiere US lab where a 182 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: lot of these technologies are actually developed and a lot 183 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: of the jumps forward in the technology have come from 184 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: the US and from Europe and Japan. But in the 185 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: future that might might not be the case because there 186 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: are just so many more people working on this because 187 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: it has been such a focus by the Chinese Communist 188 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: Party for the last twenty years. 189 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: But your point, if you were brought into a battery 190 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: adviser the Trump administration would be it's all well and 191 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: good to control the supply chains, but until you have 192 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: an ecosystem in the US of battery innovation and battery 193 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: refinement doesn't really get you that much. 194 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's exactly what I would say, and you should 195 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 2: probably you should probably do that because you can. 196 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: You can battery advisor to the Trump administration. 197 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: I read next book, but the but no, I mean, look, 198 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: what was really interesting with this book as well, was 199 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: you know when I started thinking about reporting on this 200 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: stuff in twenty nineteen. I remember I met somebody who 201 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: had used to work for Glencore and he said to me, ah, 202 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: you want to write about cobalt. Cobalt is going to 203 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: be like, you know, it's going to be the old story, 204 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: like don't focus on cobalt, like they're going to innovate 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: away from cobalt. Fast forward to twenty twenty five and 206 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. You know, Trump is doing deals with 207 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: with the Congolese president. I imagine that, like, this is 208 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: the Congoes. It's not like they get a lot of 209 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 2: bad time in Washington. The Congolese, you know, the Congleates 210 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 2: have a cobalt cartel. They are artificially raising prices and 211 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: putting in quotas, and this has become a key and 212 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: central part of the narrative. So I really think that 213 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: this is going to be something that continues and will 214 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: not just go away because of innovation or so on. 215 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: And yes, if you were the Trump administration and you 216 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: were interested in long term thinking, which is there's a 217 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: question about whether that's you know, the way that they're operating, 218 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: you would say, look, I want to develop not only 219 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: just these mines in Congo, but these refineries and these 220 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: factories and these batterym manufacturers and you know, car factories 221 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: in the US. But again, is US business ready to 222 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: do that? How do the Republicans, you know, justify subsidies 223 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: to these industries? 224 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: Well, I mean Elon left Doge partly over this issue. 225 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: The falling out was over subsidies to evs, right. 226 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think he left those because you 227 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: had to as well. 228 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: But I mean, Tesla's two years in a row of 229 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: declining sales byd dramatic slowdown in growth, still growing, but 230 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: dramatics slow down in sales growth last year. Do you 231 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: think the EV transition is inevitable? Do you think in 232 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: twenty years time, every car will be an EV or 233 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: do you think it's possible that this may the momentum 234 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: may shift in the other direction. That's may be seen 235 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: as a historical aberration. It's not the first time that 236 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: EV's have been popular. 237 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think I think you're totally right. I 238 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 2: think there is so much momentum behind it. Look, there 239 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: were popular evs around the town of the nineteenth twentieth centuries. 240 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: Just explain that because it's such a bizarre idea. 241 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: It is very weird. But you know, some of the 242 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: first cars were electric cars. I mean, the internal combustion 243 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: ENGINET came in fairly late, and the electric starter. You know, 244 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 2: you had to crank internal combustion engine cars at the beginning, 245 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: and the crank could break your hand basically, so only 246 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: men would drive internal combustion engine cars, and electric cars 247 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 2: were seen as kind of more efficient, not green, because 248 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: that wasn't people concerned at that point point. 249 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: They had batteries in the early twenty cent. 250 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, they had batteries. 251 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: They had lad acid batteries, and they were women's cars. 252 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: I actually don't know, I have no idea, but they 253 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: were women's cars and they were, but they were seen 254 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,239 Speaker 1: as women's cars, but they were they were legitimate competitive 255 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: products combustion and yeah, one hundred years. 256 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were more electric cars on the road one 257 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty years ago than internal combustion engine cars 258 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: in the US. And then in the seventies there was 259 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: this kind of like electric car fever because people weren't 260 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: worried about where oil was going and so on. But 261 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: you didn't have these kind of like behemoth companies like 262 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: Tesla or BYD at that point. I mean, I think 263 00:14:51,960 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: that the real difference now is scale. 264 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: After the break, what it might mean practically to clean 265 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: up the supply chain, and what role the US could play. 266 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: Stay with us. 267 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: When we first talked about this story, and you just 268 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: got back from a number of reporting trips to DRC 269 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: and we're pitching the book, I feel like your real 270 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: focus was on the extractive conditions of taking Cobel out 271 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: of the ground, the horrible human toll it's caused in 272 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: one of the poorest countries in the world, and that's 273 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: part of the book. But what you sort of layered 274 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: on and you're later reporting as it moved from being 275 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: a magazine story to a book, was really this focus 276 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: on how China not just controlled the supply chain for Cobolt, 277 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: but also built the battery innovation technology to take advantage 278 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: of its supply chain. And it's a very interesting story 279 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: that also takes us into Japan and to Shinsen. Can 280 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: you kind of lay out that history. 281 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: So the lifting Marion battery, you know, was developed in 282 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: the US by Exon originally, which is fascinating company was, 283 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: you know, this oil major was looking for a way 284 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: of powering vehicles when oil ran out. They were already 285 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: thinking about this in the nineteen sixty nineteen seventies. And 286 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: then in at the University of Oxford you're alma mater, 287 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: then there was an American scientist in Britain put cobalt 288 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: into the battery, so it made them sort of more 289 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: stable and more powerful, and then it was kind of 290 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: tossed to one side. Oxford didn't want to license the technology. 291 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: Nobody really thought it was useful or would be of profit. 292 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: Whittingham went off to work on oil rigs and the 293 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: batteries kind of got sidelined. But in Japan they had 294 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 2: this kind of laser sharp focus on small electronic devices 295 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: and they needed to have something that packed enough power 296 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: also that was less polluting when you disposed of it. 297 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: This is when it's in the nineties. This was in 298 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: the eighties and the mid eighties. This is consumer text exactly. 299 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: It was, you know, it was really on the back 300 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: of the walkman. So Sony was looking for it and 301 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: another company called Asahi Kasai, and there was a scientist 302 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: called Akira Yoshino, and he found his He found this 303 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: paper by John Goodenough, the Oxford scientist, sitting in a 304 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: pile of papers, and it was New Year's Eve and 305 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: he's throwing away these papers on his desk and he 306 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: finally found this pape. He was like, wait, what's this 307 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: and he had ignored. 308 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: It, and then he realized that he should make a 309 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: battery out of cobalt, and he basically spurred this kind 310 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: of innovation which led to Sony's dominance. And then what 311 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: happens is that Sony says, okay, where can I make 312 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: my batteries more cheaply? And they build plants in China 313 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: and suddenly the Chinese are building batteries as well. And 314 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: what's very interesting about BYD which is the big electric 315 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: car company, is that they started without a factory as 316 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 2: we would imagine it. It was literally it's found a 317 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: wang chun fu called a human chain, and it was 318 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: essentially just people putting together these batteries by hand in 319 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: this workshop in Shenzhen. And they are very much willing 320 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: to stomach battery fires and to stomach accidents and to 321 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: you know, continue pioneering because this is seen as a 322 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: national priority, in national objective. It's not just something that's 323 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: making value for shareholders. It's not just something that's you know, 324 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: it's almost like a patriotic duty. 325 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: But what why does BYD need one hundred and ten 326 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: thousand battery scientists? So as if I look at the world, 327 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: I see, okay, we've got evs which have you know, 328 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: six hundred kilometers plus range. We've got you know, iPhones 329 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: that you know, endlessly rechargeable and where the battery doesn't 330 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: really degrade that much. Like what is the dream breakthrough 331 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: in battery technology that one hundred and ten thousand scientists 332 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: are working towards. 333 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: There are all kinds of dreams of different types of batteries. 334 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: There's you know, so do my own batteries, there's so 335 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: do umself for batteries. There are lots of interesting new 336 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: developments around solid state batteries that just can hold a 337 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: huge amount more power. And I think the idea is 338 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 2: to make things that are cheaper hold more power less 339 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: environmentally degrading, I would say, I hope. I mean, these 340 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: people are working on these kind of infantestline in these 341 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: small types of you know, advances, but when they make breakthroughs, 342 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: they can be quite important to our lives. 343 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: So when you publish a second, the paperback edition, the 344 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: third paperback edition of this book in ten years time, 345 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: what perceptibly will have changed if all this battery innovation 346 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: goes where Chinese battery scientists think it may well. 347 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: I think that the sodium ion space is really a 348 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: place to look. 349 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: The idea here being that you don't need any extractive 350 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: mining in Africa. 351 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: You're still working with some quite nasty chemicals, but you're 352 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: basically not dealing with these minerals in Africa. But the 353 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: question is, we know that cobalt works. We know that 354 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: a lithium cobalt oxide cathode, for example, works for a 355 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: cell phone. We know that a empcy cathode is probably 356 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: the best for an electric car or. 357 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: Whatever it is. 358 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 2: Why can't we just sort out the supply chain. That 359 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: would seem to be the easier thing to do. Why 360 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 2: don't we create a supply chain that can benefit local communities. 361 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: Why don't we create a supply chain that can actually work? 362 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: And why why can't we create a supply chain in 363 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: which people work together across the world and it brings 364 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 2: people closer rather than separating each other and making them 365 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: into these kind of like warring competitive factions. I think 366 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: that's the easier thing to do than come up with 367 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: these like magical new batteries that you know, hopefully they'll 368 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,239 Speaker 2: be able to come up with, but we don't know 369 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: that there are necessarily masters of amounts of increments and change. 370 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: But what does that look like? Does that look like 371 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: the US Soviet arms controlled treaties like Start or New 372 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: Solo they were called, wherein like two superpowers say, you know, 373 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: it's so important that we regulate nuclear proliferation that despite 374 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: our strategic competition, we're willing to accept certain constraints, like 375 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: what would it mean to clean the supply chain? How 376 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: would that work practically? 377 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: I think it's just trade deals. 378 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: Actually. 379 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: I think that's that's the kind of easier way of 380 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: looking at it. And if you know, China can you know, 381 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: sit down around the table with the US and they 382 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 2: can agree to you know, quotas and tarifs and things 383 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: like that that that will go a long way. Why 384 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: because they can say, look, we're going to be we're 385 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 2: going to be selling you this X amount of batteries 386 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: and we're going to be buying it from Congo, and 387 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: Congo should be also looped into these deals. And also 388 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: it will allow for trans more and more transparency along 389 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: the supply chain. Also, another thing that I think is 390 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: really important is that companies at the end of the 391 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 2: supply chain go back to the beginning and try and 392 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: improve things at the beginning of the supply chain and 393 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: don't just use you know, China was used for a 394 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 2: very long time as a way of just insulating themselves 395 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 2: from criticism. 396 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: So they said they being Apple, they being Tesla being Apple. 397 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: Tesla had a slightly different situation because quite early on 398 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 2: they were buying only from Glencore, from an industrial a 399 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: big industrial mind, industrial mind as a mind which doesn't 400 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: have these kind of human rights abuses and such bad 401 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: ecological abuses. But still, you know, you're dealing with these 402 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: metals in a very very removed way, you're just kind 403 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: of buying it from people and not really asking where 404 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 2: they come from. And you know, down the supply chain 405 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of corruption, fraud, and human rights abuses, children, mining, 406 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 2: women washing, radioactive war and. 407 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: So on beyond human rights. Why would the US and 408 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: China be motivated to strike such a deal? Has there 409 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: been any framework, any proposal, Like, what's the closest thing 410 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: you've seen to an agreement that might mitigate some of 411 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: the issues you write about in your book? 412 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: Well, you know, the agreement that Trump made on the 413 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: fourth of December, on the face of it, this is 414 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 2: the deal with Congo was quite a good deal in 415 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: its own way. I don't know if the Congolese are 416 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 2: ready to do any of that, and you know, if 417 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: they were able to implement it would be great implemented 418 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: in what sense, well in getting rid of human rights 419 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: abuses and supply chain. There are some clauses about stockpiling 420 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: critical metals, but anybody who's done business or has worked 421 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: in the DRC can tell you that that is a 422 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: very very long way off. And also I think the 423 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: spirit of that deal was very much So let's take 424 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: it away from China and I think, you know, that's 425 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: also what people in Washington will tell you. And I 426 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: think that if that is the spirit, the Chinese are 427 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 2: going to be also saying, let's take it away from 428 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: the US. You know, they made these deals with Congo, 429 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: similar deals or actually much bigger deals in the two thousands, 430 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: and you get to a situation in which the Chinese 431 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: are saying, Okay, what can we do to recover our assets? 432 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: You know, are they throwing a lot of money around? 433 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: In CONTRASTSA, are they going to make sure that the 434 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: Congoles don't honor their deals with the US? I think 435 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: everything's on the table, you know, for that. But the 436 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: other very interesting piece of legislation is the European battery 437 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: passport legislation that's coming in I think at the end 438 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: of this year beginning of next year, and that will 439 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: hopefully put some supply chain transparency and you'll be able 440 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 2: to check where your battery came from, which mine it 441 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 2: came from, whether there was artism on mining or so 442 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: on and so forth involved down the supply chain. But again, 443 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: that data is only as good as the people who 444 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: input it. So as we've seen in the East of 445 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: the d r C, those those kind of monitoring schemes 446 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: says that have actually been used to fuel corruption. People 447 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: are like selling tags and you know, you know, signing 448 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: things saying it's from clean sources, when when it's not in. 449 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: Return for bribes and so on. 450 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: So there's some very innovative people thinking about how to 451 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 2: give sovereignty back to data. I think that's the way 452 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: that that it was put. 453 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: To me sovereignty back to data or like or give 454 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: give people back there sort of data sovereignty so that 455 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: they would be able to control the data and then 456 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: basically sell it and that would be a commodity almost 457 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 1: for them, which would give you some kind of idea 458 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: of solidifying. 459 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: The level, you know, not not having so much corruption 460 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: in the system. And it will be an interesting it 461 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: will be an interesting experiment. 462 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to note that the human 463 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: rights issues that you're surfacing and not things that you've 464 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: studied by reading un reports or scanning social media. I mean, 465 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: you have spent a great deal of time in these communities. 466 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: You recently lost somebody of a friend who you met 467 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: in the course of your work, who's our age in 468 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: his mid thirties, perhaps to an illness developed because of 469 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: working in artisanal mining was the experience of the dirtiest 470 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: supply chain on Earth. I mean, what is the human cost? 471 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: I mean, the human cost is so vital Komungu, who 472 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: is my friend who you're talking about. He was a 473 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: guy who was a child miner, and then when he 474 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: was in his early twenties, decided that he would focus 475 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: on getting children out of the mind and getting them 476 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: an education and working for first of Christian Charity and 477 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 2: then another charity called Bom Pasta, and then another charity 478 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: called Still I Rise, both of which do amazing work 479 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: getting children out of the minds. And he started this 480 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 2: school called Pamoja. And yeah, a lot of people who 481 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: live in those areas and work in those areas are 482 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: being poisoned because this stuff is vaguely radioactive and prolonged 483 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: exposure can really be very dangerous. So that's number one. 484 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: And then you just see I mean look when you 485 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: go and you see children who are stick thin with 486 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: these huge sacks of oree on their back, clambering out 487 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: of holes. I mean, it's pretty it's pretty shocking. And 488 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: I think that that's the thing that made me want 489 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: to write this. I remember calling you and I remember 490 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: I said, how can the green energy future be based 491 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 2: on this? I mean, it really is shocking to see that, 492 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: and I think that people just don't Again, this is 493 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: the sort of myth of the product that you were 494 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 2: talking about, the myth of how the commodity for myth 495 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: of the commodity form that you were talking about is that, 496 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: you know, people think that their iPhones sort of dropped 497 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: from heaven. 498 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: Or something like that. 499 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: They don't understand that there's this brutal, brutal thing that's 500 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: happening at the bottom of the supply chain. And of course, 501 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: you know, if we were talking about coal mining fifty 502 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: years ago, we probably would, but that was fifty years ago, 503 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: and that's and you know today this is this is 504 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: happening today. This is happening right now in the DRC. 505 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: But this is a topic where there's plenty of vested 506 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: interests in making sure the truth doesn't come to light. 507 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: So just to close, I mean, what truth have you 508 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: brought to light in this book that you really want, 509 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: if nothing else, people to take away. 510 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: I think the truth that I hope that people will 511 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: take away is that batteries great technology. It's an amazing 512 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 2: technology and even these kind of very old Hi Cobal 513 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: batteries or whatever it is. These technologies can be used 514 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: to make our world greener, and they can also be 515 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: used to reduce emissions. And I think that the point 516 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: is that the supply chain is at the moment very dirty, 517 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: but it can be fixed pretty easily. I think that's 518 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: what I want people to take away is that actually, 519 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: there's no real reason for this to be like this. 520 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: There's no real reason for children to be going into minds, 521 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: there's no real reason for Indonesia to be pumping coal 522 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: into the air as it has this dirty nickel supply it. 523 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: So I think that, yeah, the truth is that this 524 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: is a dirty supply chain, but that it can be improved. 525 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: And I think that that will take work, and that 526 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: will take effort, and hopefully this book will interest people 527 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: and inspire them to do that, and at the very 528 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: least will interest and inspire people to do reporting on 529 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: a lesson build more consciousness. 530 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: That the elements of power. 531 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 4: Nicholas Nelkos, thank you, Thank you us. 532 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm os Vlocan. 533 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Melissa Slaughter. 534 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: It was Executive produced by me Karra Price, Julia Nutter, 535 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. 536 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: Jack Insley makes this episod Toad and Kyle Murdoch wrote 537 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: our theme song. Please do rate and review the show 538 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts.