Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are
Speaker 1: you doing. I'm doing great. I have an incredibly important
Speaker 1: listener question. Oh I've actually got I've gotten this multiple
Speaker 1: times and I have always sort of forgotten to ask you.
Speaker 1: But this is the question. Okay, you're ready, what is
Speaker 1: your skincare routine? And actually this person asked both both
Speaker 1: of us start, what's your skincare? Because they think we
Speaker 1: have great skin. Paul, I really came close to saying filters, that's.
Speaker 2: What's Yeah, No, that's that's just it, you know, I
Speaker 2: you know, it's shocking to me that people think I
Speaker 2: have great skin, you know, because I've always, you know,
Speaker 2: since my teen years, I struggled with acne, and I
Speaker 2: never protected my skin. You know. I never wore sunscreen.
Speaker 2: I lifeguarded high school through college. When I would be
Speaker 2: working in the yard in the hot California summers, no
Speaker 2: sunscreen on, never wore a hat, and so so a
Speaker 2: lot of sun damage. But since I've gotten into sort
Speaker 2: of the media side now, I've been having to pay attention.
Speaker 2: And of course sunscreen is number one. Sunscreen in the morning,
Speaker 2: it's a moisturizer that has sunscreen in it, but generally
Speaker 2: it's sort of the the mantra of acids in the
Speaker 2: morning and retinoids in the evening. I found with my
Speaker 2: with my skin, what I need to do is generally
Speaker 2: wash with salicylic acid containing cleanser. Can be kind of harsh,
Speaker 2: but I have very very oily skin. Then if I'll
Speaker 2: use benzoil peroxide on my trouble spots and then put
Speaker 2: on the moisturizer with the sunscreen in it, and that's
Speaker 2: literally my morning routine.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's more than most men. I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that.
Speaker 2: Well you know, it's one of those things I wish
Speaker 2: I had taken care of my skin when I was younger,
Speaker 2: you know, And so I'm trying to hopefully get a
Speaker 2: more youth full appearance and try to prevent some of
Speaker 2: the you know, the aging from the sun damage that
Speaker 2: happens in the wrinkles. And then you know, midday, like
Speaker 2: after I work out, I'll probably splash some water on
Speaker 2: my face and put some more moisturizer with sunscreen on,
Speaker 2: and then in the evening, I use a gentle cleanser.
Speaker 2: It's usually right now, it's this Userine cleanser with the
Speaker 2: huronic acid in it. And then I have a retinoid.
Speaker 2: I personally, right now I'm using taseratine. It's one of
Speaker 2: the strongest retinoids. And then I put a night cream,
Speaker 2: this Userine PM face cream on top of that, and
Speaker 2: generally that's, you know, that's what my normal routine is.
Speaker 2: And if I end up breaking out for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: and it happens, and I have to address that and
Speaker 2: sometimes make changes. But I know, for a guy, I'm
Speaker 2: doing a lot more because most guys they don't they
Speaker 2: don't give a damn about that. They splash water in
Speaker 2: their face and they're good to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but you have a very youthful look. And
Speaker 1: I know you have to wear makeup when we film,
Speaker 1: right anytime you're on camera, don't you, because you get
Speaker 1: a little shiny sometimes, you know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I have put on, you know, And this this
Speaker 2: comes back from, you know, having worked in the TV
Speaker 2: world and having the hair and makeup artists having to
Speaker 2: you know, have to counter all the oil that I do.
Speaker 2: So I do have like a block powder. I don't
Speaker 2: have any on right now, you know. So we'll see
Speaker 2: how how shiny I get as we sit and record today.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll rate you. We'll go halfway through. You never
Speaker 1: get too shiny, It's okay. I mean I have a
Speaker 1: much simpler skin routine now. I feel a little badly
Speaker 1: about mine. Mine is just a gentle cleanser at night.
Speaker 1: I don't even remember what the brand is. I can't remember.
Speaker 1: It's something that a dermatologist told me to do a
Speaker 1: long time ago, and then I just did it. And
Speaker 1: then I'll use like a alta which you know, I
Speaker 1: think it's a fifty sport in the morning, and then
Speaker 1: I'll use you know, a nighttime cream. I do have
Speaker 1: some retinol that I put under my eyes, but I
Speaker 1: do a hydrator first. The hydrating thing is a real
Speaker 1: big thing for me because you know, my glasses when
Speaker 1: I if anybody's ever met me, I'm usually wearing glasses.
Speaker 1: I don't wear contacts very much. You know, my glasses
Speaker 1: kind of cover up any darkness I might have under
Speaker 1: my eyes. And so I know this sounds like a
Speaker 1: skincare crocial to you guys, but it is a thing,
Speaker 1: especially when you're on camera, you really have to kind
Speaker 1: of think about that. And then of course, like just
Speaker 1: the longevity of your skin, their skin cancer and my
Speaker 1: family so all of that I have to pass on
Speaker 1: to the kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I think you have to come
Speaker 2: up with your own regimen. You know, That's what I
Speaker 2: have found. I've I've experimented with different cleansers. There's one
Speaker 2: that has you know, the seramides in it and you know,
Speaker 2: very hydrating, and that just wrecked my face. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm just so oily to begin with, and it just
Speaker 2: wasn't cleansing my face enough. That's why I ended up
Speaker 2: going to the salasilic acid. And so it's a matter
Speaker 2: of experimenting and seeing you know how your skin and
Speaker 2: responds here in Colorado. You know, my house is at
Speaker 2: sixty five hundred feet. I live on the side of
Speaker 2: a mountain, but it's high desert. It is very very
Speaker 2: dry here. So using the strong retinoid, you know, it
Speaker 2: will really peel badly. So that's where I had to
Speaker 2: kind of figure out, how can I find a moisturizer
Speaker 2: to prevent, you know, showing up at the gym and
Speaker 2: I've got skin just flaking off of me over the place.
Speaker 2: It looks pretty bad.
Speaker 1: That's not good. No, well, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: my kids have an unbelievable amount of skincare, not even
Speaker 1: really makeup, but the industry is pretty amazing. For teens.
Speaker 1: They each have their own little refrigerator many fridge that
Speaker 1: keeps all of the stuff cool. Well, yeah, it's tiny.
Speaker 1: It's not even a traditional mini fridge. I literally use
Speaker 1: lava soap and Irish spring when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: as I was in the country, and they're using I
Speaker 1: mean the stuff that they their allowance almost exclusively goes
Speaker 1: to skincare stuff. So boy, things have changed, well.
Speaker 2: You know, and a lot of it. As a guy
Speaker 2: growing up, there wasn't a source of knowledge of how
Speaker 2: to take care of your skin, you know. So for me,
Speaker 2: once I became a teenage boy, it was the oxypads
Speaker 2: and you know, slathering benz oil peroxide creams all over
Speaker 2: the face and then going into school or going into
Speaker 2: work and then the shirt would all bleach out. It
Speaker 2: was just a horrible thing, and I didn't know any better.
Speaker 2: And now for me, I've done the research. But even
Speaker 2: my daughter, my youngest daughter, she is so on top of,
Speaker 2: you know, her skincare routine and what products do you
Speaker 2: use when you know? And so it's just the the
Speaker 2: Internet has just made so much information, made it so
Speaker 2: much more available, so you can learn and as opposed
Speaker 2: to having to either go into an office somewhere with
Speaker 2: a dermatologist, which you still need to do, but in
Speaker 2: terms of having an expert like that tell you what
Speaker 2: your regimen should be.
Speaker 1: I agree. I'm mean I still have a lot of flexibility.
Speaker 1: We were supposed to get my father in law some
Speaker 1: deodorant or anti purs but I can't remember which, and
Speaker 1: so we got him old spice, some kind of old
Speaker 1: spice stuff and he rejected it. He said, no, So
Speaker 1: I wear it. It's fine.
Speaker 2: I mean, so, so you smell like a lumberjack? Is
Speaker 2: that what you're telling me?
Speaker 1: I don't smell badly, and for me, that's the only
Speaker 1: thing that counts.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 1: Anyway, we've gone down a weird road. But this is
Speaker 1: uh but yeah, this is a question. Actually we've gotten
Speaker 1: quite a bit. So we're both very grateful that at
Speaker 1: least some of you think that we have nice skin. Thankfully.
Speaker 2: Well, it's always you know, for me, having the struggles
Speaker 2: that I've had, for people to actually make that type
Speaker 2: of comment, it's sort of a confidence booster, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, good.
Speaker 1: You know, yes, well I could have told you that
Speaker 1: three years ago. I would have told you that. Okay,
Speaker 1: well now I know, now I know. Well, let's get
Speaker 1: into a story that, unlike our skincare routines, is quite
Speaker 1: a mystery. That was not a good transition, but it's
Speaker 1: a mystery. This is a miss I love the time
Speaker 1: period where in nineteen thirties England. Of course love England,
Speaker 1: and so this will be a case of actually, I'm
Speaker 1: not even going to finish that sentence. Let's just get
Speaker 1: into the case and let's set the scene. This is
Speaker 1: where we are where in Stadhampton. I'm sure I said
Speaker 1: that wrong. England. It's a small rural village about nine
Speaker 1: miles away from Oxford. Most people would recognize Oxford from
Speaker 1: Oxford University. It's May fifteenth, nineteen thirty six, so this
Speaker 1: is two forty five in the morning, and several farmers
Speaker 1: in this rural area see smoke coming from a nearby hayfield.
Speaker 1: I have written about bad things happening in hayfields. We
Speaker 1: have had at least a couple of stories of fires
Speaker 1: happening now I can't remember one. It's like a whole
Speaker 1: family is burned and buried in a hay field and
Speaker 1: the only one child survives, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff happening, I guess because it's so isolated, and it's
Speaker 1: in the middle of the nights, very early in the morning.
Speaker 1: Farmers and farm hands report they're there at you know,
Speaker 1: about three in the morning, and they're trying to put
Speaker 1: out this blaze. And the fire has spread to several
Speaker 1: different haystacks in the field, and there's a group of
Speaker 1: cows that wanders over to one of the smoldering stacks
Speaker 1: and starts nosing it. Now, this next part is a
Speaker 1: I shit you not part. The farmers try to show
Speaker 1: them away, but they're not moving and they keep nosing
Speaker 1: the Hey, I don't think they want to eat it.
Speaker 1: The farmers go over and there is a charred body
Speaker 1: in the haystack. I would not have predicted cows locating
Speaker 1: a body. We've never had that happen before. But this
Speaker 1: is a This is a situation where the cows won't
Speaker 1: move and I don't know what they're doing. I don't
Speaker 1: know if they're trying to tell them that there's a
Speaker 1: body there, but something's unusual and the cows are picking
Speaker 1: up on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've never heard of that kind of
Speaker 2: behavior by cattle. You know, I would assume the cattle,
Speaker 2: the cows would stay far away from any of these fires.
Speaker 2: That just seem like the animal instinct for survival. With
Speaker 2: a charred body, of course, there's going to be definitely
Speaker 2: a very strong odor, you know. Is that what's drawing
Speaker 2: the cows, you know? Or is there a level of
Speaker 2: intelligence where the cows are going We need to larn
Speaker 2: these humans that there's another human that's, you know, being
Speaker 2: burned up underneath this haystack.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I'll tell you
Speaker 1: in a minute, because I'm going to want you to
Speaker 1: look at a photo. So while i'm talking, maybe go
Speaker 1: ahead and download your two photo documents. Is I think
Speaker 1: the rest of this field has been burned pretty significantly,
Speaker 1: so the cows might be approaching maybe the only hay
Speaker 1: that's around. But still there are people yelling, there's all
Speaker 1: sorts of chaos. There's that bad smell. I can't explain it.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying get rid of your bloodhounds, law enforcement
Speaker 1: people across the country, but I'm saying cows in this case,
Speaker 1: we're helpful. Okay, So before you open it, don't open
Speaker 1: it just yet. Let me just tell you what is found.
Speaker 1: It's determined that the body in the haystack has been
Speaker 1: confirmed to be this guy, Thomas Pattison Moss. He had
Speaker 1: a distinctive broken tooth, and I think there were a
Speaker 1: couple of other things, particularly, I know particularly there's a
Speaker 1: belt that is leather, it's still intact and it has
Speaker 1: his name on it, Thomas Pattison Moss. But the tooth,
Speaker 1: for them, I guess was the thing that confirmed it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, what does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know back, you know, during this timeframe, and
Speaker 2: we're talking nineteen thirty six out there in England. You know,
Speaker 2: they're going to rely on these types of physical characteristics.
Speaker 2: I think the belt with his name on it is significant.
Speaker 2: Out of course, is this a true identification by today's standards,
Speaker 2: it is not. Could somebody stage a different body to
Speaker 2: you know, especially after it's been burned to have you know,
Speaker 2: this type of broken tooth and then put a belt
Speaker 2: from Thomas around that body and then now you've got
Speaker 2: authorities going, well, it's got to be Thomas, you know,
Speaker 2: and the reality it's not. It'd be very very easy
Speaker 2: to fool people in authorities back during this timeframe with
Speaker 2: that type of staging.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's all I have to go on right now.
Speaker 1: So they are assuming that Thomas Pattison Moss is their victim.
Speaker 1: There are two photos that you can look at, and
Speaker 1: really it's the two main photos in this case. There's
Speaker 1: not a lot of photographic evidence here. One is what
Speaker 1: the haystack field would have likely looked at with the big, huge,
Speaker 1: roundish haystacks, and the other one, which is the first
Speaker 1: photo you can look at, is what this field look
Speaker 1: like after the fire, after they discovered the body. So
Speaker 1: I don't think it spoils anything for you to look
Speaker 1: at both of them now if you want.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I'm looking at the first one and it's
Speaker 2: literally it looks just like mounds of dry hay that's
Speaker 2: still smoldering. And you see three gentlemen, I must say,
Speaker 2: very well dressed gentleman. You know, I'm assuming these are
Speaker 2: you know, law enforcement or maybe members from you know,
Speaker 2: city government or something that are out there. Yeah. One
Speaker 2: one gentleman is pointing down to the ground. I'm not
Speaker 2: seeing anything that stands out where he's pointing, so I'm
Speaker 2: wondering if that's where he's saying where Thomas's body was
Speaker 2: was located at.
Speaker 1: I think I think that's what they're saying. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: And then the second wow, okay, So this this photo
Speaker 2: is a modern day photo showing these haystacks or hay ricks.
Speaker 2: And I've never I've never heard the term hay ricks,
Speaker 2: but it's showing a way where you have the these hey,
Speaker 2: that's been bailed into your typical you know blocks, you know,
Speaker 2: rectangular blocks that have been stacked up, and then there
Speaker 2: is loose hay that has been draped over the top,
Speaker 2: giving it a look of almost like a sort of
Speaker 2: like a house you know that has a hay roof.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming they do that because I'm just thinking,
Speaker 2: like you know, during the rain, they're probably wanting to
Speaker 2: keep the bailed hay dry, and so this hay that
Speaker 2: is drooped over the top is a way to get
Speaker 2: the water from rain and stuff to run off and
Speaker 2: not soak the hay that they're probably going to try
Speaker 2: to sell, you know. So of course, if that's how
Speaker 2: this looked before the fire, going back to the original photograph,
Speaker 2: there's a significant amount of hay that has been burned, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, because none of that type of structure is remaining.
Speaker 2: You just see these smoldering mounds. You know. So as
Speaker 2: I evaluate this scene, I'm looking at this from the
Speaker 2: perspective of, Okay, how much heat was Thomas's body subjected to?
Speaker 2: You know, what is the origin of the fire, you know,
Speaker 2: and of course how long had Thomas been out there?
Speaker 2: But it's interesting that I could see with this dry hay,
Speaker 2: you know a lot of this fire is just going
Speaker 2: straight up these haystacks and does it work its way
Speaker 2: down you know, so maybe it's been burning for a
Speaker 2: long time before it, you know, the fire actually gets
Speaker 2: down to Thomas's body, you know, and that's just something
Speaker 2: where talking to people who have observed these types of
Speaker 2: haystacks burn, how do they burn? You know? And then
Speaker 2: I would take that to assess the sort of the
Speaker 2: thermal injuries to Thomas and to start to get a
Speaker 2: sense as to what is going on here, you know,
Speaker 2: is did he just happened to get trapped in a
Speaker 2: fire and he you know, succumbed to the smoke in
Speaker 2: elation and now his body's being burned. Does he have
Speaker 2: injuries to suggest that he was killed? And then of
Speaker 2: course his body's being burned as the offender lit these haystacks,
Speaker 2: you know, to cover up the crime.
Speaker 1: This is why the case I think is so interesting
Speaker 1: and it is a mystery, especially when we find out
Speaker 1: a little bit more about Thomas. So let me tell
Speaker 1: you about him. He is twenty one years old. He's
Speaker 1: an undergraduate in law at Oxford University's Balliol College. This
Speaker 1: is not a big part of the story, but Oxford
Speaker 1: is split up into a bunch of different colleges and
Speaker 1: you know, they pool resources like libraries and labs, and
Speaker 1: so Thomas is at one of the best schools in
Speaker 1: the world. He is originally from Toronto, so he's Canadian
Speaker 1: and as part of a wealthy, very prominent family. His
Speaker 1: father is a well known barrister. We just talked about barristers.
Speaker 1: They're the attorneys who you know, argue before the courts.
Speaker 1: So this is a middle class, upper middle class guy
Speaker 1: who ends up in these haystacks, burned to death. You
Speaker 1: know when we talk about what happens, he doesn't have
Speaker 1: ties to where we are. Let me give you the
Speaker 1: best news I'm going to be able to give you today.
Speaker 1: I think with anything that we talk about, Okay, you're
Speaker 1: gonna probably geek out a lot, which is great because
Speaker 1: we are getting to get some information from my pathology crush.
Speaker 1: So it's England. It's the nineteen thirties. It is not you, Paul.
Speaker 1: It is the nineteen thirties. That's what you're thinking about
Speaker 1: it now. I'm gonna see if you could figure this out.
Speaker 1: It's England, it's the nineteen thirties. I love this this
Speaker 1: pathologist too, is it do you think? Oh?
Speaker 2: You know, the name is on the tip of my tongue.
Speaker 2: But I'm not.
Speaker 1: Sp spill Spillsbury.
Speaker 2: Bernard spills Oh yeah, Bernard Spillsbury.
Speaker 1: He's our guy. I know you've got your book back there, right, I.
Speaker 2: Think I've got a book about him.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure you've ever disagreed with Spillsbury. I
Speaker 1: don't remember you ever saying I don't know, he might
Speaker 1: be reaching. I feel like you're always sort of like
Speaker 1: on the same page with this guy from the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I can't remember specific issues in
Speaker 2: which Billsbury has weighed in, but you know this from
Speaker 2: what I remember about him and the sense of what
Speaker 2: you have presented to me over the various cases. You know,
Speaker 2: he's an experienced pathologist. He is a true expert. He's
Speaker 2: seen it all, and that's where he's able to come
Speaker 2: in and provide that level of expertise and draw proper conclusions.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, in many parts of you know, the United States,
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming in some parts of England, you don't
Speaker 2: have pathologists that have that experience and expertise, and so
Speaker 2: now they're weighing in on cases without that knowledge base,
Speaker 2: and sometimes they're wrong about what they're concluding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and part of me, he wonders why was he
Speaker 1: called in on this. He's certainly not the only pathologist
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirties England. It's not London. I know it
Speaker 1: on the outset kind of seems like a violent case,
Speaker 1: but they're not sure what happened. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if it was the family's prominence that he was Canadian
Speaker 1: and he's here in England, that he's at Oxford University.
Speaker 1: But this seems like not a special request. But I
Speaker 1: don't know. It just seems a little odd that he
Speaker 1: would be the one out there. I'm glad he is,
Speaker 1: because we have a lot of information.
Speaker 2: You know. What's striking me right off the bat about
Speaker 2: Thomas Moss being found at this location that he has
Speaker 2: no ties to is that sounds like they're able to
Speaker 2: identify him pretty quickly, you know. So there must have
Speaker 2: been some sort of report, a missing report to indicate, hey,
Speaker 2: we have this Canadian student from a prominent family that's missing,
Speaker 2: and now you have this burned body at a location
Speaker 2: where now authorities are going, well we need to look
Speaker 2: at that, and oh, sure enough it's a son of
Speaker 2: this prominent Canadian family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we do have some information about Thomas and
Speaker 1: where he was and you know his whereabouts, and I
Speaker 1: think people were concerned about him. So let me tell
Speaker 1: you first, there's a kind of an interesting order of things.
Speaker 1: So Spillsbury, my pathology crush, has decided to do a
Speaker 1: postmortem right there where the body is in the field,
Speaker 1: So there will be a lot more information once he's done,
Speaker 1: you know, with this report. But he has to do
Speaker 1: a pretty intensive examination back at his lab. Right now,
Speaker 1: we're just kind of getting information as he's getting it.
Speaker 1: So it's in the field where this is happening. He
Speaker 1: uses a pop up table. Is that something that happens ever,
Speaker 1: or why would you do that? Yeah, let's start disagreeing
Speaker 1: with him right now.
Speaker 2: No, you know, now, there are times when pathologists do
Speaker 2: come out into the field, you know, and they want
Speaker 2: to observe the deceased in the environment prior to the
Speaker 2: death investigator collecting the body, and that can be very
Speaker 2: valuable to get the pathologist's opinions, you know, early on
Speaker 2: during the crime scene investigation. Outside of when I've seen anthropologists,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of study the skeletal remains out into
Speaker 2: the field. Typically the body is collected and then taken
Speaker 2: back to the coroner's office. Emmy's office or Morgue or
Speaker 2: you know, back in the day funeral homes where the
Speaker 2: pathologist in a controlled setting can now do the autopsy
Speaker 2: and has all the tools available in order to do that. So,
Speaker 2: you know, Spillsbury must have seen something, you know, that
Speaker 2: was maybe time sensitive. Where he's going, I need to
Speaker 2: take a look now to see what's going on. I
Speaker 2: also wonder if there is no nearby facilities. And since
Speaker 2: Spillsberry is traveling, he thought, you know what, I can
Speaker 2: do this out in the field. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: see that happening today, you know, but I can see
Speaker 2: where it's it's feasible. I don't you know, there is
Speaker 2: a possibility. There's no harm in doing it as long
Speaker 2: as it's done properly. The proper samples are collected, you know,
Speaker 2: all the specimen jars are available, et cetera.
Speaker 1: So Spillsbury, when he's done with this examination, there will
Speaker 1: be a coroner's inquest, but it's paused because Spillsbury takes
Speaker 1: more than a week with Thomas's body to figure out
Speaker 1: what's going on. So you'll have questions, but I think
Speaker 1: he's going to have answers for just about everything. So
Speaker 1: he does his post mortem in the field using a
Speaker 1: propped up door as a makeshift table. Okay, there you.
Speaker 2: Go, ad Hoc. You know he's having to improvise.
Speaker 1: He is, okay, this is what he says, and this
Speaker 1: is pulmonary. He says that Thomas's skull and both of
Speaker 1: his arms are broken, which I think the farmers could
Speaker 1: tell when he was found, so he says. Billsbury says,
Speaker 1: he thinks that the bones cracked from the fire and
Speaker 1: had not been broken before Thomas had died, So how
Speaker 1: would he know that.
Speaker 2: Well, this again goes to case experience and having dealt
Speaker 2: with previous burned bodies. Now you know the skull being
Speaker 2: broken or fractured. That is a very very common thing
Speaker 2: because as the heat from the fire is burning the
Speaker 2: victim and burning around the victim's head, of course, the
Speaker 2: brain matter inside the skull is being subjected to intense heat.
Speaker 2: And this is where you can actually have the skull
Speaker 2: somewhat burst from the thermal ad you know, this tissue
Speaker 2: expanding and all the heat that's collecting within this closed system.
Speaker 2: Skulls are very good at resisting pressure from the outside
Speaker 2: in like somebody pressing on your head. The skulls are
Speaker 2: not so good at resisting pressure from the inside out.
Speaker 2: So if the tissue inside the brain under high heat
Speaker 2: is now gaseous and the pressures building up, you often
Speaker 2: see the skull separate at the suture lines or even fracture.
Speaker 2: And so he must be seeing something like that. And
Speaker 2: then the broken bones. That's likely telling me that the extremities,
Speaker 2: at least the upper extremities for Thomas, have been subjected
Speaker 2: to prolonged exposure to fire, and so now the soft
Speaker 2: tissue has been burned away, the bones are in essence
Speaker 2: turning brittle, and yeah, they lose their integrity, you know.
Speaker 2: So of course initially I start thinking, well, is there
Speaker 2: a chance that this was a bludgeoning and the broken
Speaker 2: arms are a result of defensive you know, defensive posture
Speaker 2: in terms of trying to ward off the bludgeting weapon.
Speaker 2: But I have to rely on spillsbury assessment that this
Speaker 2: is thermal injuries versus actual violence.
Speaker 1: Well, he'll have a lot more information, but he's taken
Speaker 1: the body. They are continuing to look at the scene.
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing that struck me about the
Speaker 1: photo I sent to you is obviously they take this
Speaker 1: photo of these well dressed men with one either holding
Speaker 1: a pipe, a smoking pipe, or a pencil. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what he's held. He's definitely holding something.
Speaker 2: It looks like a pipe. I mean you can see
Speaker 2: it looks like where his hand is wrapped around it
Speaker 2: is pretty wide, you know. So, yeah, you're out in
Speaker 2: the middle with all this dry hay and you're smoking great.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know my first book, which was Death
Speaker 1: in the Air, which was set in London, I talk
Speaker 1: about the Minister of Health who in I think in
Speaker 1: the late fifties early sixties, has a big press conference
Speaker 1: and he's declaring that there is a definitive connection between
Speaker 1: lung cancer and smoking, and he is chain smoking a
Speaker 1: cigarette's chained of smoking cigarettes to the entire press conference
Speaker 1: where he's talking about these are going to kill you.
Speaker 1: So there's more irony all over. Okay, So you know
Speaker 1: what I was looking at with that photo is how
Speaker 1: decimated that is. I wonder how long after two forty
Speaker 1: five am that was. Because if the haystacks, the hay
Speaker 1: ricks were as tall as we think they would be,
Speaker 1: I mean in a field like that, they just look decimated.
Speaker 1: I mean, this looks huge, a huge fire. So This
Speaker 1: could have been three days later and it still looks
Speaker 1: like it's moldering to me. So this was a big deal,
Speaker 1: this fire.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of fuel at this you know, in
Speaker 2: this fire. Now, hey, it is going to burn quickly.
Speaker 2: But those bailed hay blocks, you know, they're pretty compact,
Speaker 2: so it's sort of like a log in many ways,
Speaker 2: you know. And I have no experience in terms of
Speaker 2: how fast something like that would burn, but if you
Speaker 2: have them stacked on top of each other and for
Speaker 2: them to be completely burned down to the ground, it's
Speaker 2: probably a very intense fire. And it was going on
Speaker 2: for a period of time, Yeah, a significant period of time.
Speaker 1: And we don't know who this guy just happened to
Speaker 1: see it at two forty five. We don't even know
Speaker 1: when it started. Sure, okay, let me tell you what
Speaker 1: else they found. So I told you that there's the
Speaker 1: belt fragment that has Thomas's name on it, and there
Speaker 1: were some other things that were not completely burned that
Speaker 1: were found with his body, including a pair of cuff
Speaker 1: links that were later identified as his and some money
Speaker 1: which is three shillings and twopence. And remember this is
Speaker 1: you know, nineteen thirty so this is about twenty bucks.
Speaker 2: Today, okay, and these are coins, yes.
Speaker 1: And you know, so you've got not incredible valuables. But
Speaker 1: he's got a leather belt, he's got you know, some
Speaker 1: cuff links that seem really nice, and he's got some
Speaker 1: money on him and none of those things are taken.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I don't know what else he had on him, but
Speaker 1: that's a thing. I mean, you know, we're looking if
Speaker 1: if robbery is a motive for anything, that's one thing.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, And this is part of the problem
Speaker 2: with fires. Fires could be so devastating to the crime
Speaker 2: scene that there's always missing information because fire has destroyed it.
Speaker 2: So you know, is there a possibility that, you know,
Speaker 2: something had been taken from Thomas. Yeah, you know, it's possible,
Speaker 2: but it's notable that these particular items that do have
Speaker 2: some value were left behind.
Speaker 1: Also, his watch. We've had this happen before two So
Speaker 1: the leather strap is burned away, but they find the
Speaker 1: watch and it's the face is still readable. It stopped
Speaker 1: at two ten am, So this is thirty five minutes
Speaker 1: before the farmer saw the fire. Is that a pretty
Speaker 1: good time stamp for something?
Speaker 2: I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is
Speaker 2: that's the time in which the watch being subjected to
Speaker 2: the fire stopped working. Gives no information as to when
Speaker 2: Thomas was put out there, nor when the fire was started.
Speaker 1: So the farmer whose field Thomas was found in, who
Speaker 1: I'm sure is upset for many different reasons a body
Speaker 1: being found in his field and all of it being destroyed.
Speaker 1: He brings a reporter to the spot in the field
Speaker 1: where the body was. It's a reporter, not a photographer.
Speaker 1: We don't have a photo of this, And according to
Speaker 1: the photographer and the farmer, it's the only spot in
Speaker 1: the entire hayfield that hasn't been completely burned. And this
Speaker 1: becomes important to Spillsbury. There's still hay on the spot
Speaker 1: where Thomas's body has been found, while all the other
Speaker 1: hay in the field has been reduced to ash okay.
Speaker 1: So the farmer thinks that this particular haystack has been wet,
Speaker 1: and he says that if Thomas had decided to go
Speaker 1: to sleep on a haystack, there would have been no
Speaker 1: reason for him to pick a wet one when all
Speaker 1: the other ones which completely burned down, were you know, dry.
Speaker 1: So for a while the investigators until we hear back
Speaker 1: from Spillsbury. Think, what if this guy, which happens, wanders
Speaker 1: down the road, you know, early the night before and
Speaker 1: decides to take a nap in between you know, some haystacks.
Speaker 1: He's covered and if it's a nice night and it's
Speaker 1: not raining, why not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is something that has to be considered
Speaker 2: at this point. Is is this a accidental death. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure what Thomas would have done to cause the
Speaker 2: fire himself, but he chose a location that I have
Speaker 2: to rely upon the farmer's expertise, going, Hey, the reason
Speaker 2: this hey didn't burn is because it was wetter than
Speaker 2: the other. You know, but Tom was Thomas smoking and
Speaker 2: he falls asleep. You know, right now, we don't have
Speaker 2: any indication that Thomas has is inebriated. He's a toxic
Speaker 2: you know, he's under the influence of alcohol, and you know,
Speaker 2: he nods off and then he lights the dryer hay
Speaker 2: stacks around him just you know, the cigarette just happens
Speaker 2: to catch something on fire and it goes Yeah. I
Speaker 2: was also when you were describing it, I was wondering,
Speaker 2: you know, is this just where you have Thomas's body
Speaker 2: laying on top of some hay. And let's say the
Speaker 2: offender lights Thomas on fire, and the fire spreads to
Speaker 2: all these other dry haystacks, you know, but Thomas's body,
Speaker 2: though it's being burned, in essence, is protecting the hay
Speaker 2: underneath where he's laying. So by the time they actually
Speaker 2: discover Thomas, the fire hasn't gotten into this protected area.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting because the farmer and
Speaker 1: the reporter are not saying the hay is wet right now.
Speaker 1: They're just trying to figure out why there would be
Speaker 1: this hey, you know, with the cows coming over, why
Speaker 1: this hay would be not burned and everything else around
Speaker 1: it would be. And it's also a little bit confusing
Speaker 1: about how big these haystacks are because you know, they're
Speaker 1: sort of an indication that the investigators are wondering, right
Speaker 1: if he would have fallen asleep because he's protected on
Speaker 1: both sides from the wind between two haystacks. But the
Speaker 1: farmer says, on a haystack, so it could have been
Speaker 1: you know, ten bails and that was it. We don't
Speaker 1: know yet, Okay, corners in quest starts and this is
Speaker 1: the day after Thomas's body is discovered, his identity is established.
Speaker 1: You know, what happens with the belt? They find this belt,
Speaker 1: the cuff links his clothing. They talked to his family
Speaker 1: and so they're concluding and the tooth, they're concluding that
Speaker 1: this is Thomas. Here's something weird. It comes out that
Speaker 1: there is a box of matches that was still in
Speaker 1: Thomas's pocket, and the box and the matches were burned,
Speaker 1: but they were still recognizable. It's agreed by the investigators
Speaker 1: at least that if Thomas had set the hay on
Speaker 1: fire himself, he would have had to do so with
Speaker 1: a different box of matches, since the group does not
Speaker 1: believe that he could have gotten this box back in
Speaker 1: his pocket. Like the kind of explosion of lighting this
Speaker 1: hay would have, you know, prevented him from putting the
Speaker 1: box back in his pocket. I'm not sure what that
Speaker 1: would be the case.
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical about that conclusion. I'm imagining Thomas with this
Speaker 2: box of matches, he lights a match, you know, puts
Speaker 2: the box back in the pocket, flicks the match away
Speaker 2: on that match goes and falls on some dry hay,
Speaker 2: and then the fire would spread reasoningly rapidly but I
Speaker 2: don't see it being like this explosive, you know, where
Speaker 2: Thomas is immediately incapacitated as soon as that fire starts.
Speaker 2: So you know, this is where you know Thomas at
Speaker 2: least does have the ability to start the fire himself.
Speaker 1: Okay. Authorities are going back and forth almost on a
Speaker 1: daily basis on you know, is this murder and a
Speaker 1: cover up or is this Thomas took his own life
Speaker 1: or something accidentally happened. We don't know. Accidental death is
Speaker 1: kind of what they're leaning towards, but they're not sure.
Speaker 1: They talked to Thomas's friends at the Oxford Law School
Speaker 1: and they say they don't think that Thomas would have
Speaker 1: taken his own life, which this seems like an odd
Speaker 1: way to do it, but it has to be on
Speaker 1: the table. He was a week away from graduating. They're
Speaker 1: confused about why he would have walked from Oxford to
Speaker 1: this tiny rural area when there's nine miles in between
Speaker 1: them and this is a desolate country road late at night.
Speaker 1: They don't know how he got there. Let me tell
Speaker 1: you the timeline. So ten point fifty on Thursday, than
Speaker 1: the night before, he's seen about nine miles away in
Speaker 1: Oxford's boardwalk and he seems to be walking back to
Speaker 1: his hostel or his student housing is what they would
Speaker 1: have called it. At one ten in the morning, a
Speaker 1: postal worker passes by the hayfield. Nothing, nothing's wrong, but
Speaker 1: you know, he wouldn't have seen Thomas, most likely anyway
Speaker 1: from the road. Two ten, an hour later, Thomas's watch
Speaker 1: stops to forty five the farmhand's seen the fire, and
Speaker 1: then three thirty they finally find his body after forty
Speaker 1: five minutes. So one thing I think most people agree
Speaker 1: on is nobody sees this guy walking nine miles in
Speaker 1: the dark by himself to get to a haystack, only
Speaker 1: to fall asleep on some hay in between it and
Speaker 1: then everything goes up in flames. So it's the transportation
Speaker 1: that I think bugs everybody the most. What how did
Speaker 1: he get there?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're getting into sort of the core
Speaker 2: of the initial investigative thrust. You have Thomas from a wealthy,
Speaker 2: prominent family who has no ties to location where his
Speaker 2: body is found. You know, I was wondering, you know,
Speaker 2: was he you know, like a farm hand, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of moonlighting, you know, to get some money or
Speaker 2: something like that. But sounds like he has no connection
Speaker 2: to this particular location. So you have a timeline where
Speaker 2: he is now seen at ten fifty pm walking towards
Speaker 2: his residence on the Oxford campus. Yes, okay, So now
Speaker 2: this is where the focus has to start in terms
Speaker 2: of okay, you have one witness. What does his residence suggest,
Speaker 2: you know, does it look like he made it back
Speaker 2: to the residence. Is there anything that looks amiss inside
Speaker 2: the residence? Was he abducted out of the residence? What
Speaker 2: other aspects of Thomas's victimology would suggest that maybe there's
Speaker 2: something else going on in his life that could cause
Speaker 2: him to become a victim of homicide. And now you
Speaker 2: do have the possibility of a body disposal out there
Speaker 2: in the hayfield, with the hayfields being set on fire,
Speaker 2: and this might give some insight if that's what happened.
Speaker 2: The fact that the offender chose the hayfield and lit
Speaker 2: the hayfield on fire, they purposely took Thomas's body out there,
Speaker 2: that might suggest that the offender has some familiarity with
Speaker 2: that particular location and being able to possibly cover up
Speaker 2: a crime using the fire and the hay.
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some details about Thomas. But
Speaker 1: first let me tell you the speculation which I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought of. So there is a lot of speculation that
Speaker 1: maybe Thomas was hit by a car, accidentally killed, and
Speaker 1: then the motorist dumped his body in this hay field
Speaker 1: and set it on fire. Then that still brings Thomas
Speaker 1: back to walking to someplace he doesn't have a connection
Speaker 1: to for no good reason. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: buy into that, but they're they're just reaching for anything
Speaker 1: at this point.
Speaker 2: Well sure, you know, and this is where what does
Speaker 2: the autopsy show. You know, we have some preliminary information
Speaker 2: from Spillsbury cutting into Thomas's body on the door out
Speaker 2: there at the hayfield, you know, but I imagine that
Speaker 2: there is more extensive autopsy done. You know, in pedestrian
Speaker 2: injuries for motor vehicles, you know, they can be quite extensive.
Speaker 2: And that would probably stand out. If if Thomas is
Speaker 2: walking and you have a motor vehicle striking him, it's
Speaker 2: possible you have massive lower leg fractures if he was
Speaker 2: run over. And nineteen thirty six England, I mean you
Speaker 2: have cars. I mean these are legitimate vehicles.
Speaker 1: Yeah, heavy cars.
Speaker 2: They're heavy, Yeah, you know, they're made out of steel,
Speaker 2: and I would expect under that scenario that there would
Speaker 2: be some indication of that level of violence from a
Speaker 2: motor vehicle that Spillsbury would be able to see even
Speaker 2: with the thermal damage to Thomas's body.
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about Thomas, because Billsbury's almost done.
Speaker 1: He's getting there. But he's almost done with this examination.
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's taken more than a week. I know,
Speaker 1: but he knows what he's doing. I think we'll see
Speaker 1: if he's like, you know, batting one thousand.
Speaker 2: Well, I could tell you the investigators are standing there going,
Speaker 2: come on, doc. I know they're like tapping their feet, going,
Speaker 2: we need to get rolling on this.
Speaker 1: Their speculation all over the place, especially if there's a
Speaker 1: murderer running around. So in the meantime, the police start
Speaker 1: grabbing all of his friends from Oxford to try to
Speaker 1: figure out the timeline and what he was like in general.
Speaker 1: There is a classmate in Oxford who testified to the
Speaker 1: police for an hour, and you know, I'll go through
Speaker 1: what that person says. First, there's an ear witness. There
Speaker 1: was a woman in a village and she said that
Speaker 1: near the Hayfield she was in earshot and she could
Speaker 1: hear a scream. The night that Thomas died. She said
Speaker 1: she saw a car drive quickly through the village and
Speaker 1: then toward the hayfield and then away from the hayfield.
Speaker 1: But this is something that you know, is reported briefly.
Speaker 1: It's not something in the police notes that we saw,
Speaker 1: and it was in the newspaper and that was it,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't actually come up in the actual inquest.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if this woman was discredited or what.
Speaker 1: But this is the this is the closest thing that
Speaker 1: I've seen to something that really was sort of like WHOA, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's interesting.
Speaker 2: And she doesn't give any details about the scream, like
Speaker 2: was there a word being screamed or was it Did
Speaker 2: it sound like a male versus female voice?
Speaker 1: No, it just the scream. To me, I think was
Speaker 1: sort of in pain. But no, she couldn't say anything
Speaker 1: about that. It was a little bit more because this
Speaker 1: is such a tiny village. I think it was very
Speaker 1: noticeable that a car was coming out in and coming
Speaker 1: out so quickly, and that's really what she noticed also,
Speaker 1: So take that for what it's worth. Here's another weird
Speaker 1: thing I don't actually think this is going to make
Speaker 1: a difference, but I find it slightly amusing. It's reported
Speaker 1: that the police are looking for two letters that a
Speaker 1: street cleaner in Oxford, So where he went to school,
Speaker 1: found on May eighteenth, which is two days after Thomas
Speaker 1: was found. The street cleaner found these letters, two of them,
Speaker 1: and they both had been signed Pat Moss. So Thomas's
Speaker 1: name was you know, Thomas Pattison Moss, so it could
Speaker 1: have been Pat Moss. It also might be another Pat Moss.
Speaker 1: The street cleaner says he didn't open them and gave
Speaker 1: the two letters to two people who had been sitting
Speaker 1: on a nearby bench because they had a car, and
Speaker 1: he said, can you bring these letters to the police.
Speaker 1: But the police never got these letters. I don't know
Speaker 1: why he wouldn't take them himself. But if these letters
Speaker 1: were at all significant, they're in the wind at this point.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we have no details what these leves said.
Speaker 1: No, no, and we have I mean, we've been down
Speaker 1: the letter route on many other stories where you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, where's this come from? Is this significant? Sometimes
Speaker 1: it is, sometimes it's not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And do we know would Thomas sign his name
Speaker 2: Pat Moss. Is this consistent.
Speaker 1: I don't think they even looked into that, so I
Speaker 1: don't know. Okay. May twenty ninth is when we pick
Speaker 1: up the inquest again. There's one witness. He is a
Speaker 1: classmate at Oxford. This is the one who I think
Speaker 1: spoke to the police for more than an hour. The
Speaker 1: rest of this inquest, which I know is driving people crazy,
Speaker 1: gets pushed to June because everyone's taking final exams at
Speaker 1: Oxford and so these witnesses are not available. This guy is.
Speaker 1: He says that he last saw Thomas about eight fifteen
Speaker 1: pm the night before he died, so that would have
Speaker 1: been Thursday night if he died Friday early morning. This
Speaker 1: was right after a dinner at the college within Oxford
Speaker 1: University where he was. The classmate says that Thomas seemed
Speaker 1: totally normal. He was a good guy, He had a
Speaker 1: lot of friends, He was handsome, He was not in
Speaker 1: the habit of walking alone that he never walked alone
Speaker 1: in the countryside. He was generally a pretty happy guy. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know how he knows that this was not
Speaker 1: something that Thomas would do. I doubt they had a conversation,
Speaker 1: but it just wasn't in his habit to go on
Speaker 1: like a stroll or a walk about by himself. It
Speaker 1: would have been unusual according to this friend. They don't
Speaker 1: know anything else except there's one witness who said they
Speaker 1: saw him at ten point fifty but just kind of
Speaker 1: passing by and that was it. Nobody else knows what
Speaker 1: happened after this with Thomas, So we don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of information about enemies, girlfriends, anything like that. It
Speaker 1: just sounds like this is a guy just trying to
Speaker 1: make it through school at a very challenging school, average life,
Speaker 1: except he's from a very upper class family and that's
Speaker 1: it as far as character, witnesses or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so at this point we don't have an investigative
Speaker 2: direction to where we can start focusing in on a
Speaker 2: smaller suspect pool. I mean, basically, this investigation is wide
Speaker 2: open at this point, and it's still they're doing this
Speaker 2: corner's inquest and they're trying, probably trying to get present
Speaker 2: information so they can get the manner of death for
Speaker 2: the death certificate. You know, that's what the inquest is
Speaker 2: there for. Was this death at the hands of another,
Speaker 2: Was this an accident? Was this natural? So at some
Speaker 2: point during this inquest. Spillsbury has to come forward and
Speaker 2: provide his findings, because that's critical. We have the fractured
Speaker 2: skull and the broken bones, which he's saying appear to
Speaker 2: be from the fire. You know what else is he finding?
Speaker 1: Okay, it's time he's finally done. It's a month later.
Speaker 1: There's been delays after delays. It's I know, June eighteenth,
Speaker 1: so this is a month later. He comes back with
Speaker 1: his analysis. There are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
Speaker 1: nineteen e There's like fifteen points that he makes. So
Speaker 1: I thought I had the idea that either we could
Speaker 1: go point by a point and I'll pause and look
Speaker 1: at you, or you could put your hand up if
Speaker 1: you want to comment on one of these points. But
Speaker 1: he tries to go through every scenario in his head
Speaker 1: and see if the evidence matches up to it that
Speaker 1: he finds. So how do you want to handle this,
Speaker 1: detective holes.
Speaker 2: I think I want to hear the totality of his
Speaker 2: findings and then I can kind of weigh in after that.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is what Spillsbury says. So Thomas's stomach contents
Speaker 1: showed no sign of any poison, so he spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time looking for poison a bottle, so they
Speaker 1: had found a bottle near his body was burned too
Speaker 1: badly to know what had been in and it looked
Speaker 1: like maybe it was a prescription bottle, but there was
Speaker 1: no way to know sure. He says. There was no
Speaker 1: smell of gasoline petrol on what remained of Thomas's clothes,
Speaker 1: so he didn't smell that kind of an accelerant. There
Speaker 1: were no injuries on Thomas's body other than what occurred
Speaker 1: during the fire. He says, all of his organs are intact.
Speaker 1: He thinks this means kind of exactly what you said
Speaker 1: that Thomas did not get hit by a car, otherwise
Speaker 1: he would have seen some significant damage. And there were
Speaker 1: no ligature marks or any other marks of strangulation on Thomas.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's I think I'll comment on that is,
Speaker 2: if I don't know the extent of the fire damage
Speaker 2: to Thomas in terms of how much of his body
Speaker 2: was really destroyed by the fire. So for Spillsbury to
Speaker 2: draw conclusion saying I'm not seeing evidence of strangulation, whether
Speaker 2: it be ligature or manual strangulation. That tells me that
Speaker 2: the next structures must have been intact enough for Spillsbury
Speaker 2: to form that opinion.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to like this next bit. Well, first,
Speaker 1: let me tell you Thomas was healthy. There's no disease
Speaker 1: or anything that would point to something happening. This is
Speaker 1: what he says. It's like you guys are of the
Speaker 1: same mind because you say something and I have. That's
Speaker 1: my next note. This is what he says about the
Speaker 1: body being burnt. Okay, no, you'll like this. Okay, tell
Speaker 1: me what you think. This is what he says. This
Speaker 1: is a quote. The body was severely burned, but the
Speaker 1: changes were of an unusual character in that while the
Speaker 1: destruction of the tissues was limited to parts of the
Speaker 1: limbs and the top of the head, the heating effects
Speaker 1: were general and extended very deeply into the head and
Speaker 1: the trunk. He believes that Thomas was exposed to the
Speaker 1: effects of high heat much longer than he was exposed
Speaker 1: to the flames.
Speaker 2: So the location of the thermal damage, that's telling me,
Speaker 2: And it was the arms and sounds like it was
Speaker 2: the upper part of his head. Well, that indicates the
Speaker 2: way that Thomas was laying I'm assuming on the ground
Speaker 2: or on top of some hay. Well, that part of
Speaker 2: his body is where the fire is raging, and so
Speaker 2: you got that he's closest to the fire with his
Speaker 2: head and his arms, but the rest of his body
Speaker 2: is not. It's further away and it's not on fire.
Speaker 2: So eventually he's probably got the fire encroaching on his
Speaker 2: body or he's starting to burn. When the rescuers come
Speaker 2: and put out the fire, the cows say hey, look,
Speaker 2: you know, the cows basically stop Thomas's body from being
Speaker 2: turned to ashes. You know, that's that's interesting from a
Speaker 2: what is the point of origin of the fire. So
Speaker 2: if this was a body disposal, typically the offenders are
Speaker 2: going to light the body on fire and the surrounding flammables,
Speaker 2: you know. And Spillsbury saying I'm not detecting the odor
Speaker 2: of gasoline coming from from his body doesn't mean an
Speaker 2: accelerant wasn't used. It's possible an accelerant was used in
Speaker 2: order to help light some of the hate surrounding Thomas's body,
Speaker 2: or the high heat has burned away the volatiles that
Speaker 2: now Spillsbury can't smell. You know, Typically, like gasoline has
Speaker 2: a wide variety of different volatiles in it, and the
Speaker 2: lighter ones will burn away very quickly, but you can
Speaker 2: still have some of the heavier volatiles that might be
Speaker 2: present that might contribute to a gasoline like smell. But
Speaker 2: there's other flammables that are very very lightweight that probably
Speaker 2: with the high heat, could have evaporated completely. But the
Speaker 2: lack of the burning on Thomas's body suggests he wasn't
Speaker 2: lit on fire. The fire started somewhere else and was
Speaker 2: coming towards him, with the fire being the closest to
Speaker 2: his head. In his arms, he.
Speaker 1: Has even more stuff than I think. This is all
Speaker 1: really interesting. He says that the skin on Thomas's back
Speaker 1: was less burned than on other areas of his body.
Speaker 1: Spillsbury thinks that Thomas was laying on his back and
Speaker 1: that's why, Yes, so listen to this. There were hay
Speaker 1: fragments inside Thomas's air passages, they were only partially burned.
Speaker 1: Thomas's blood was bright red, indicating, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: exposure to carbon monoxide. We've talked about that before, which
Speaker 1: is a byproduct of burning hay. And Spillsbury thinks that
Speaker 1: Thomas was unconscious by the time he inhaled these pieces
Speaker 1: of hay, because otherwise he would have woken up, and
Speaker 1: you know, if he had the ability to wake up
Speaker 1: and gotten up, if this is an accident, So what
Speaker 1: do you think about that stuff? You know, in his
Speaker 1: nasal passages, these pieces.
Speaker 2: Of hay, It suggests this is in many ways, it's
Speaker 2: like pathologists findings and drowning. You know, the innhilation of
Speaker 2: water into the lungs suggests, you know, the individual was
Speaker 2: at least breathing at the time the water was inhaled.
Speaker 2: Here it sounds like Thomas is still breathing and is
Speaker 2: pulling in these fragments of partially burned hay particles, which
Speaker 2: suggests that the fire is going and Thomas is still breathing.
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean he has awareness. He could be laying there,
Speaker 2: still alive, still breathing, but he's now succumbed to the
Speaker 2: smoke inhalation, the bright red blood carbon monoxide. You know,
Speaker 2: so he is in the process of dying as a
Speaker 2: result of lack of oxygen to his body while the
Speaker 2: fire is going on. And that's probably all you can
Speaker 2: conclude with that, But it also suggests that, well, this
Speaker 2: isn't a situation to where let's say he was killed
Speaker 2: in some other location and then the offender drove his
Speaker 2: body out to this location and started the fire. Unless, however, Thomas,
Speaker 2: you know, succumbed to whatever the offender did to him
Speaker 2: at the first location, I would expect him to be
Speaker 2: dead by the time his body's at this location. So
Speaker 2: you know, what is going on here? Is this homicide?
Speaker 2: Is this accidental? I don't see it as being suicide,
Speaker 2: but I don't know if you could rule that out,
Speaker 2: considering Thomas has a source of starting a fire with
Speaker 2: the matchbook that's in his pocket, you know, And I
Speaker 2: don't know right now. I think it's it's still a
Speaker 2: mystery with what you've told me.
Speaker 1: Okay, maybe this will help make it less of a mystery.
Speaker 1: And no, this is not a gotcha. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: just something that was part of the investigation. It's true.
Speaker 1: So Spillsbury did a lot of research and I just
Speaker 1: read this too. I did not know that hey can
Speaker 1: spontaneously combust. Okay, it happens. Wet hay is actually more
Speaker 1: likely to spontaneously combust than dry They said that biological
Speaker 1: activity within the hay, which I guess happens more often
Speaker 1: because it's if it's wet that it sets off a
Speaker 1: chemical reaction that generates enough heat to light hay on fire.
Speaker 1: I've heard about that growing up, and this is what
Speaker 1: Spillsbury thinks happened. So he thinks that Thomas laid down
Speaker 1: to go to sleep on some damp straw between two
Speaker 1: haystacks so that he's protected from you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know the wind or people walking up on him, one
Speaker 1: of which was probably about to combust because it did happen,
Speaker 1: and that he was affixiated from a lack of oxygen
Speaker 1: by lying so close to the smoldering fire, and he
Speaker 1: was likely dead before the haystack fully burst into flames
Speaker 1: and burned his body. And that's what he thinks happened.
Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, I am familiar. You do
Speaker 2: have various agricultural products, you know, like in silos or
Speaker 2: something where there is the possibility of this spontaneous combustion,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it has to do with particulates that are
Speaker 2: in this enclosed space getting up to a certain level.
Speaker 2: First time, I'm hearing about wet hay you know, but
Speaker 2: that's not apprizing to me. I not arguing against that
Speaker 2: as a possibility because of the lack of violence to
Speaker 2: Thomas's body, but the question still remains, why is Thomas
Speaker 2: out at this location?
Speaker 1: Yep? And that's what bothers the coroner's jury because you know,
Speaker 1: ultimately they agree with Spillsbury. They had all had heard
Speaker 1: about this before. It's a known phenomenon which I had
Speaker 1: not heard of before. So Spillsbury says this and everybody
Speaker 1: buys it, except the jury does not think there is
Speaker 1: a reasonable explanation for why he would have gone to
Speaker 1: this place to begin with.
Speaker 2: Sure, and you have the ear witness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the scream and the car.
Speaker 2: And then you have the car. You know, from my perspective,
Speaker 2: that puts enough suspicion into what is the manner of
Speaker 2: death that you know, I think today the ruling should
Speaker 2: be undetermined. Okay, just because there's enough suspicious activity with
Speaker 2: witnesses and Thomas's victimology that you go, okay, we don't
Speaker 2: know how he died in terms of well let me
Speaker 2: let me let me say it differently. It appears at
Speaker 2: the fire was the cause of his death, but we
Speaker 2: don't know was this accidental because of spontaneous combustion. We
Speaker 2: don't know is this at the hands of another And
Speaker 2: Thomas was you know, forced to be out there, or
Speaker 2: maybe he was knocked unconscious and the amount of thermal
Speaker 2: damage to his skull is not allowing Spillsbury to see
Speaker 2: that there may have been, you know, a blow to
Speaker 2: his head, you know, and then the fire was lit.
Speaker 2: And this is I think important from a crime scene standpoint,
Speaker 2: is in this day and age, this is where I
Speaker 2: get the state Fire Marshal's office, the arson investigator out
Speaker 2: or the local fire department's arson investigators out to answer
Speaker 2: a question, how did this fire start? You know? And
Speaker 2: they're the ones that have the expertise, not I. They
Speaker 2: can see, they see the you know, the fire world.
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's amazing to watch them work because
Speaker 2: they cease so much that I can't spot because I
Speaker 2: don't have that day in, day out experience of looking
Speaker 2: at the world after it's been burned.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but let's just buy into his theory that it
Speaker 1: is the spontaneous combustion of these hay stacks or one
Speaker 1: of them that did this, that he was asleep, he
Speaker 1: was close to the one that combusted, and the fumes
Speaker 1: got him first, and by the time everything went up
Speaker 1: in flames, he was already dead. Does everything that he
Speaker 1: is detailing lack of poison, lack of you know, disease,
Speaker 1: the hay in the nostrils, all of that stuff makes
Speaker 1: sense to you if we are going to buy into
Speaker 1: the combustion theory.
Speaker 2: Yes, I cannot eliminate the possibility that this was an
Speaker 2: accidental as a result of Thomas being in that hayfield
Speaker 2: that night for whatever reason, and there is spontaneous combustion.
Speaker 2: Everything Spillsbury is lining up is entirely consistent with that.
Speaker 1: Okay, say that again.
Speaker 2: It is entirely consistent with that.
Speaker 1: So he is still batting one thousand. My boyfriend, a
Speaker 1: pathologist who died probably eighty years ago or something.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to knock Spillsbury off of this this
Speaker 2: pedestal you've put him on.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean really, you know, but.
Speaker 2: This is so important for you. You have this experience
Speaker 2: pathologist being able to outline this, you know, and now
Speaker 2: it's marrying up what his findings are with the investigation.
Speaker 2: And that's where right now there appears to be a
Speaker 2: little bit of a conflict that needs to be resolved
Speaker 2: in order to really know what happened to Thomas.
Speaker 1: Well, this is not a formally closed case. I have
Speaker 1: not closed this case. So I don't know if anybody's
Speaker 1: working it, but you know, this is not closed. I
Speaker 1: think we might be the last one one's working. But
Speaker 1: it's definitely interesting. Sometimes we do these where they murdered.
Speaker 1: You know, remember the actress that we just talked about
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. What happened? Did she die
Speaker 1: in the car in the garage? You know? And sometimes
Speaker 1: murder is not the thing that we conclude. But I
Speaker 1: think it's all interesting because like how much we talked
Speaker 1: about the processes that happen in the body, and you know,
Speaker 1: the different ways that pathologists have to look at these
Speaker 1: cases to try to systematically eliminate what everybody thinks is happening,
Speaker 1: which is oftentimes not true.
Speaker 2: Sure, but you know, working in law enforcement, whether you're
Speaker 2: a homicide investigator, you're a CSI pathologist, death investigator, we
Speaker 2: go out on cases which are we're not sure there's
Speaker 2: a homicide or not. The proper mindset is always to
Speaker 2: treat it like a homicide because that's when all the
Speaker 2: resources are flowing in. You enact all the resources to
Speaker 2: get everything documented, everything collected, everything that you know, all
Speaker 2: the experts that would weigh in a homicide case, and
Speaker 2: then you go, oh, the haystack just spontaneously combusted. You know,
Speaker 2: It's kind of reminds me of the couple who died
Speaker 2: near the lake and turns out the lake is putting
Speaker 2: off noxious gases. Not a homicide, it's an accidental death.
Speaker 2: That always needs to be the approach in these cases.
Speaker 2: And so that's why I get called out. And there's suicides,
Speaker 2: but there's something somebody goes, this doesn't look right, and
Speaker 2: sometimes they're right and it's actually a homicide and it's
Speaker 2: been staged to look like a suicide, or it's an
Speaker 2: actual suicide and it's just an unusual one. Sometimes I've
Speaker 2: had to go out to accidental deaths, you know, typically overdoses,
Speaker 2: but there's just enough to where somebody's going, this could
Speaker 2: be a homicide. So in this particular case, I think
Speaker 2: with Thomas, from my perspective, is everything Spillsberry is outlining
Speaker 2: is yes, this suggests that this was accidental. I just
Speaker 2: think there's too much of a mystery of why Thomas
Speaker 2: is out in this hayfield and we have the ear
Speaker 2: witness observing a car going in and rapidly going out.
Speaker 2: What's up with that? You know, if that's actually even accurate.
Speaker 2: And so this is where I think the corner's in
Speaker 2: quest that the proper finding is this is undetermined and
Speaker 2: law enforcement needs to proceed as if it's a homicide
Speaker 2: up until they're able to answer those questions.
Speaker 1: Okay, this case is one of the ones that's I mean,
Speaker 1: that has taught me the most, and of course it's
Speaker 1: you and Spillsbury, So we will definitely return to a Spillsbury.
Speaker 1: Where are you, Paul, don't get jealous, God, but I'm
Speaker 1: determined to bring you an actual murder next week, and
Speaker 1: not a guy in a haystack where we're trying to
Speaker 1: figure out exactly what happened. But I love good mystery,
Speaker 1: So you never know.
Speaker 2: Right well, you know, and I think you know part
Speaker 2: of it. You know, when you do work these types
Speaker 2: of cases, you learn from them. So when you do
Speaker 2: have the homicide that has some similar parallels, there's experience
Speaker 2: that you can draw upon. And the reality is is
Speaker 2: that you can read all the CSI textbooks, pathology textbooks,
Speaker 2: everything else, you can never ever replace the experience of
Speaker 2: real life cases. So this is a real life case
Speaker 2: that these Spillsbury, these officers, these investigators, they're all learning
Speaker 2: for the next case that comes along, where now they
Speaker 2: can they know how to kind of proceed once they
Speaker 2: see something that they've seen from Thomas's case.
Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee you that when we come back
Speaker 1: from our one week katus that we will have a
Speaker 1: murder and it won't be a mystery case. But we'll
Speaker 1: see I can't guarantee anything, you.
Speaker 2: Mean, I've got to wait what two weeks before I
Speaker 2: hear this next case.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm sorry about that, buddy.
Speaker 2: All right, well, I look forward to it.
Speaker 1: Then, thank you, We'll see you.
Speaker 2: Then sounds good.
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly writemedia dot
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.