WEBVTT - Lethal in the Hay

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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<v Speaker 1>last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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<v Speaker 2>worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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<v Speaker 1>Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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<v Speaker 1>compelling true crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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<v Speaker 2>new insights to old mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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<v Speaker 1>cases through a twenty first century lens.

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<v Speaker 2>Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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<v Speaker 1>This is buried Bones. Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are

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<v Speaker 1>you doing. I'm doing great. I have an incredibly important

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<v Speaker 1>listener question. Oh I've actually got I've gotten this multiple

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<v Speaker 1>times and I have always sort of forgotten to ask you.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is the question. Okay, you're ready, what is

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<v Speaker 1>your skincare routine? And actually this person asked both both

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<v Speaker 1>of us start, what's your skincare? Because they think we

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<v Speaker 1>have great skin. Paul, I really came close to saying filters, that's.

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<v Speaker 2>What's Yeah, No, that's that's just it, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's shocking to me that people think I

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<v Speaker 2>have great skin, you know, because I've always, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>since my teen years, I struggled with acne, and I

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<v Speaker 2>never protected my skin. You know. I never wore sunscreen.

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<v Speaker 2>I lifeguarded high school through college. When I would be

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<v Speaker 2>working in the yard in the hot California summers, no

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<v Speaker 2>sunscreen on, never wore a hat, and so so a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of sun damage. But since I've gotten into sort

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<v Speaker 2>of the media side now, I've been having to pay attention.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course sunscreen is number one. Sunscreen in the morning,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a moisturizer that has sunscreen in it, but generally

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<v Speaker 2>it's sort of the the mantra of acids in the

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<v Speaker 2>morning and retinoids in the evening. I found with my

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<v Speaker 2>with my skin, what I need to do is generally

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<v Speaker 2>wash with salicylic acid containing cleanser. Can be kind of harsh,

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<v Speaker 2>but I have very very oily skin. Then if I'll

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<v Speaker 2>use benzoil peroxide on my trouble spots and then put

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<v Speaker 2>on the moisturizer with the sunscreen in it, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>literally my morning routine.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, that's more than most men. I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 1>sure that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you know, it's one of those things I wish

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<v Speaker 2>I had taken care of my skin when I was younger,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And so I'm trying to hopefully get a

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<v Speaker 2>more youth full appearance and try to prevent some of

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, the aging from the sun damage that

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<v Speaker 2>happens in the wrinkles. And then you know, midday, like

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<v Speaker 2>after I work out, I'll probably splash some water on

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<v Speaker 2>my face and put some more moisturizer with sunscreen on,

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<v Speaker 2>and then in the evening, I use a gentle cleanser.

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<v Speaker 2>It's usually right now, it's this Userine cleanser with the

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<v Speaker 2>huronic acid in it. And then I have a retinoid.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally, right now I'm using taseratine. It's one of

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<v Speaker 2>the strongest retinoids. And then I put a night cream,

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<v Speaker 2>this Userine PM face cream on top of that, and

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<v Speaker 2>generally that's, you know, that's what my normal routine is.

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<v Speaker 2>And if I end up breaking out for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 2>and it happens, and I have to address that and

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes make changes. But I know, for a guy, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>doing a lot more because most guys they don't they

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<v Speaker 2>don't give a damn about that. They splash water in

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<v Speaker 2>their face and they're good to go.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, but you have a very youthful look. And

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<v Speaker 1>I know you have to wear makeup when we film,

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<v Speaker 1>right anytime you're on camera, don't you, because you get

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<v Speaker 1>a little shiny sometimes, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I have put on, you know, And this this

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<v Speaker 2>comes back from, you know, having worked in the TV

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<v Speaker 2>world and having the hair and makeup artists having to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, have to counter all the oil that I do.

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<v Speaker 2>So I do have like a block powder. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have any on right now, you know. So we'll see

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<v Speaker 2>how how shiny I get as we sit and record today.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'll rate you. We'll go halfway through. You never

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<v Speaker 1>get too shiny, It's okay. I mean I have a

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<v Speaker 1>much simpler skin routine now. I feel a little badly

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<v Speaker 1>about mine. Mine is just a gentle cleanser at night.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't even remember what the brand is. I can't remember.

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<v Speaker 1>It's something that a dermatologist told me to do a

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<v Speaker 1>long time ago, and then I just did it. And

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<v Speaker 1>then I'll use like a alta which you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's a fifty sport in the morning, and then

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<v Speaker 1>I'll use you know, a nighttime cream. I do have

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<v Speaker 1>some retinol that I put under my eyes, but I

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<v Speaker 1>do a hydrator first. The hydrating thing is a real

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<v Speaker 1>big thing for me because you know, my glasses when

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<v Speaker 1>I if anybody's ever met me, I'm usually wearing glasses.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't wear contacts very much. You know, my glasses

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<v Speaker 1>kind of cover up any darkness I might have under

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<v Speaker 1>my eyes. And so I know this sounds like a

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<v Speaker 1>skincare crocial to you guys, but it is a thing,

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<v Speaker 1>especially when you're on camera, you really have to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of think about that. And then of course, like just

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<v Speaker 1>the longevity of your skin, their skin cancer and my

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<v Speaker 1>family so all of that I have to pass on

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<v Speaker 1>to the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and I think you have to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with your own regimen. You know, That's what I

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<v Speaker 2>have found. I've I've experimented with different cleansers. There's one

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<v Speaker 2>that has you know, the seramides in it and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>very hydrating, and that just wrecked my face. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just so oily to begin with, and it just

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't cleansing my face enough. That's why I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>going to the salasilic acid. And so it's a matter

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<v Speaker 2>of experimenting and seeing you know how your skin and

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<v Speaker 2>responds here in Colorado. You know, my house is at

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<v Speaker 2>sixty five hundred feet. I live on the side of

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<v Speaker 2>a mountain, but it's high desert. It is very very

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<v Speaker 2>dry here. So using the strong retinoid, you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>will really peel badly. So that's where I had to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of figure out, how can I find a moisturizer

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<v Speaker 2>to prevent, you know, showing up at the gym and

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<v Speaker 2>I've got skin just flaking off of me over the place.

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<v Speaker 2>It looks pretty bad.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not good. No, well, I would say, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>my kids have an unbelievable amount of skincare, not even

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<v Speaker 1>really makeup, but the industry is pretty amazing. For teens.

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<v Speaker 1>They each have their own little refrigerator many fridge that

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<v Speaker 1>keeps all of the stuff cool. Well, yeah, it's tiny.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not even a traditional mini fridge. I literally use

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<v Speaker 1>lava soap and Irish spring when I was a kid,

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<v Speaker 1>as I was in the country, and they're using I

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<v Speaker 1>mean the stuff that they their allowance almost exclusively goes

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<v Speaker 1>to skincare stuff. So boy, things have changed, well.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, and a lot of it. As a guy

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<v Speaker 2>growing up, there wasn't a source of knowledge of how

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<v Speaker 2>to take care of your skin, you know. So for me,

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<v Speaker 2>once I became a teenage boy, it was the oxypads

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, slathering benz oil peroxide creams all over

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<v Speaker 2>the face and then going into school or going into

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<v Speaker 2>work and then the shirt would all bleach out. It

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<v Speaker 2>was just a horrible thing, and I didn't know any better.

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<v Speaker 2>And now for me, I've done the research. But even

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter, my youngest daughter, she is so on top of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, her skincare routine and what products do you

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<v Speaker 2>use when you know? And so it's just the the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet has just made so much information, made it so

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<v Speaker 2>much more available, so you can learn and as opposed

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<v Speaker 2>to having to either go into an office somewhere with

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<v Speaker 2>a dermatologist, which you still need to do, but in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of having an expert like that tell you what

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<v Speaker 2>your regimen should be.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree. I'm mean I still have a lot of flexibility.

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<v Speaker 1>We were supposed to get my father in law some

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<v Speaker 1>deodorant or anti purs but I can't remember which, and

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<v Speaker 1>so we got him old spice, some kind of old

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<v Speaker 1>spice stuff and he rejected it. He said, no, So

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<v Speaker 1>I wear it. It's fine.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, so, so you smell like a lumberjack? Is

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<v Speaker 2>that what you're telling me?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't smell badly, and for me, that's the only

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<v Speaker 1>thing that counts.

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<v Speaker 2>Really.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyway, we've gone down a weird road. But this is

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<v Speaker 1>uh but yeah, this is a question. Actually we've gotten

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<v Speaker 1>quite a bit. So we're both very grateful that at

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<v Speaker 1>least some of you think that we have nice skin. Thankfully.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's always you know, for me, having the struggles

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<v Speaker 2>that I've had, for people to actually make that type

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<v Speaker 2>of comment, it's sort of a confidence booster, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, okay, good.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, yes, well I could have told you that

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<v Speaker 1>three years ago. I would have told you that. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>well now I know, now I know. Well, let's get

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<v Speaker 1>into a story that, unlike our skincare routines, is quite

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<v Speaker 1>a mystery. That was not a good transition, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>a mystery. This is a miss I love the time

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<v Speaker 1>period where in nineteen thirties England. Of course love England,

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<v Speaker 1>and so this will be a case of actually, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not even going to finish that sentence. Let's just get

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<v Speaker 1>into the case and let's set the scene. This is

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<v Speaker 1>where we are where in Stadhampton. I'm sure I said

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<v Speaker 1>that wrong. England. It's a small rural village about nine

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<v Speaker 1>miles away from Oxford. Most people would recognize Oxford from

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<v Speaker 1>Oxford University. It's May fifteenth, nineteen thirty six, so this

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<v Speaker 1>is two forty five in the morning, and several farmers

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<v Speaker 1>in this rural area see smoke coming from a nearby hayfield.

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<v Speaker 1>I have written about bad things happening in hayfields. We

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<v Speaker 1>have had at least a couple of stories of fires

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<v Speaker 1>happening now I can't remember one. It's like a whole

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<v Speaker 1>family is burned and buried in a hay field and

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<v Speaker 1>the only one child survives, and there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>stuff happening, I guess because it's so isolated, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of the nights, very early in the morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Farmers and farm hands report they're there at you know,

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<v Speaker 1>about three in the morning, and they're trying to put

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<v Speaker 1>out this blaze. And the fire has spread to several

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<v Speaker 1>different haystacks in the field, and there's a group of

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<v Speaker 1>cows that wanders over to one of the smoldering stacks

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<v Speaker 1>and starts nosing it. Now, this next part is a

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<v Speaker 1>I shit you not part. The farmers try to show

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<v Speaker 1>them away, but they're not moving and they keep nosing

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<v Speaker 1>the Hey, I don't think they want to eat it.

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<v Speaker 1>The farmers go over and there is a charred body

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<v Speaker 1>in the haystack. I would not have predicted cows locating

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<v Speaker 1>a body. We've never had that happen before. But this

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<v Speaker 1>is a This is a situation where the cows won't

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<v Speaker 1>move and I don't know what they're doing. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if they're trying to tell them that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>body there, but something's unusual and the cows are picking

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<v Speaker 1>up on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I've never heard of that kind of

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<v Speaker 2>behavior by cattle. You know, I would assume the cattle,

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<v Speaker 2>the cows would stay far away from any of these fires.

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<v Speaker 2>That just seem like the animal instinct for survival. With

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<v Speaker 2>a charred body, of course, there's going to be definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a very strong odor, you know. Is that what's drawing

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<v Speaker 2>the cows, you know? Or is there a level of

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence where the cows are going We need to larn

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<v Speaker 2>these humans that there's another human that's, you know, being

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<v Speaker 2>burned up underneath this haystack.

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<v Speaker 1>I think one of the things that I'll tell you

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<v Speaker 1>in a minute, because I'm going to want you to

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<v Speaker 1>look at a photo. So while i'm talking, maybe go

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and download your two photo documents. Is I think

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of this field has been burned pretty significantly,

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<v Speaker 1>so the cows might be approaching maybe the only hay

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<v Speaker 1>that's around. But still there are people yelling, there's all

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<v Speaker 1>sorts of chaos. There's that bad smell. I can't explain it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying get rid of your bloodhounds, law enforcement

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<v Speaker 1>people across the country, but I'm saying cows in this case,

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<v Speaker 1>we're helpful. Okay, So before you open it, don't open

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<v Speaker 1>it just yet. Let me just tell you what is found.

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<v Speaker 1>It's determined that the body in the haystack has been

0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.800
<v Speaker 1>confirmed to be this guy, Thomas Pattison Moss. He had

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.440
<v Speaker 1>a distinctive broken tooth, and I think there were a

0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.640
<v Speaker 1>couple of other things, particularly, I know particularly there's a

0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.640
<v Speaker 1>belt that is leather, it's still intact and it has

0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.000
<v Speaker 1>his name on it, Thomas Pattison Moss. But the tooth,

0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.400
<v Speaker 1>for them, I guess was the thing that confirmed it.

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:31.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, what does that make sense?

0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? You know back, you know, during this timeframe, and

0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 2>we're talking nineteen thirty six out there in England. You know,

0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:42.199
<v Speaker 2>they're going to rely on these types of physical characteristics.

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.200
<v Speaker 2>I think the belt with his name on it is significant.

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Out of course, is this a true identification by today's standards,

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:54.760
<v Speaker 2>it is not. Could somebody stage a different body to

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, especially after it's been burned to have you know,

0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>this type of broken tooth and then put a belt

0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>from Thomas around that body and then now you've got

0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.120
<v Speaker 2>authorities going, well, it's got to be Thomas, you know,

0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and the reality it's not. It'd be very very easy

0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 2>to fool people in authorities back during this timeframe with

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 2>that type of staging.

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's all I have to go on right now.

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 1>So they are assuming that Thomas Pattison Moss is their victim.

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.760
<v Speaker 1>There are two photos that you can look at, and

0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.240
<v Speaker 1>really it's the two main photos in this case. There's

0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>not a lot of photographic evidence here. One is what

0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 1>the haystack field would have likely looked at with the big, huge,

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.200
<v Speaker 1>roundish haystacks, and the other one, which is the first

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 1>photo you can look at, is what this field look

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 1>like after the fire, after they discovered the body. So

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:46.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it spoils anything for you to look

0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:48.640
<v Speaker 1>at both of them now if you want.

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, I'm looking at the first one and it's

0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>literally it looks just like mounds of dry hay that's

0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>still smoldering. And you see three gentlemen, I must say,

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 2>very well dressed gentleman. You know, I'm assuming these are

0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, law enforcement or maybe members from you know,

0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.920
<v Speaker 2>city government or something that are out there. Yeah. One

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.240
<v Speaker 2>one gentleman is pointing down to the ground. I'm not

0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 2>seeing anything that stands out where he's pointing, so I'm

0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.600
<v Speaker 2>wondering if that's where he's saying where Thomas's body was

0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 2>was located at.

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I think I think that's what they're saying. Yeah, okay.

0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 2>And then the second wow, okay, So this this photo

0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 2>is a modern day photo showing these haystacks or hay ricks.

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 2>And I've never I've never heard the term hay ricks,

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 2>but it's showing a way where you have the these hey,

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.560
<v Speaker 2>that's been bailed into your typical you know blocks, you know,

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 2>rectangular blocks that have been stacked up, and then there

0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>is loose hay that has been draped over the top,

0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.360
<v Speaker 2>giving it a look of almost like a sort of

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.120
<v Speaker 2>like a house you know that has a hay roof.

0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 2>And I'm assuming they do that because I'm just thinking,

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.440
<v Speaker 2>like you know, during the rain, they're probably wanting to

0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 2>keep the bailed hay dry, and so this hay that

0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 2>is drooped over the top is a way to get

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>the water from rain and stuff to run off and

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 2>not soak the hay that they're probably going to try

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 2>to sell, you know. So of course, if that's how

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 2>this looked before the fire, going back to the original photograph,

0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.360
<v Speaker 2>there's a significant amount of hay that has been burned, yeah,

0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, because none of that type of structure is remaining.

0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.640
<v Speaker 2>You just see these smoldering mounds. You know. So as

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I evaluate this scene, I'm looking at this from the

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:03.280
<v Speaker 2>perspective of, Okay, how much heat was Thomas's body subjected to?

0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, what is the origin of the fire, you know,

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and of course how long had Thomas been out there?

0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting that I could see with this dry hay,

0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>you know a lot of this fire is just going

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 2>straight up these haystacks and does it work its way

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.880
<v Speaker 2>down you know, so maybe it's been burning for a

0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.920
<v Speaker 2>long time before it, you know, the fire actually gets

0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 2>down to Thomas's body, you know, and that's just something

0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.040
<v Speaker 2>where talking to people who have observed these types of

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 2>haystacks burn, how do they burn? You know? And then

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.280
<v Speaker 2>I would take that to assess the sort of the

0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.480
<v Speaker 2>thermal injuries to Thomas and to start to get a

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 2>sense as to what is going on here, you know,

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>is did he just happened to get trapped in a

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.920
<v Speaker 2>fire and he you know, succumbed to the smoke in

0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>elation and now his body's being burned. Does he have

0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.720
<v Speaker 2>injuries to suggest that he was killed? And then of

0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.200
<v Speaker 2>course his body's being burned as the offender lit these haystacks,

0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, to cover up the crime.

0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.639
<v Speaker 1>This is why the case I think is so interesting

0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.639
<v Speaker 1>and it is a mystery, especially when we find out

0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.360
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more about Thomas. So let me tell

0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.359
<v Speaker 1>you about him. He is twenty one years old. He's

0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 1>an undergraduate in law at Oxford University's Balliol College. This

0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:28.640
<v Speaker 1>is not a big part of the story, but Oxford

0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.160
<v Speaker 1>is split up into a bunch of different colleges and

0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, they pool resources like libraries and labs, and

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.960
<v Speaker 1>so Thomas is at one of the best schools in

0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the world. He is originally from Toronto, so he's Canadian

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 1>and as part of a wealthy, very prominent family. His

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.120
<v Speaker 1>father is a well known barrister. We just talked about barristers.

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 1>They're the attorneys who you know, argue before the courts.

0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.200
<v Speaker 1>So this is a middle class, upper middle class guy

0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.320
<v Speaker 1>who ends up in these haystacks, burned to death. You

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.600
<v Speaker 1>know when we talk about what happens, he doesn't have

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.679
<v Speaker 1>ties to where we are. Let me give you the

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.679
<v Speaker 1>best news I'm going to be able to give you today.

0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.960
<v Speaker 1>I think with anything that we talk about, Okay, you're

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>gonna probably geek out a lot, which is great because

0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 1>we are getting to get some information from my pathology crush.

0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 1>So it's England. It's the nineteen thirties. It is not you, Paul.

0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.880
<v Speaker 1>It is the nineteen thirties. That's what you're thinking about

0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:30.880
<v Speaker 1>it now. I'm gonna see if you could figure this out.

0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 1>It's England, it's the nineteen thirties. I love this this

0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.400
<v Speaker 1>pathologist too, is it do you think? Oh?

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, the name is on the tip of my tongue.

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:40.600
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not.

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Sp spill Spillsbury.

0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Bernard spills Oh yeah, Bernard Spillsbury.

0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.240
<v Speaker 1>He's our guy. I know you've got your book back there, right, I.

0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Think I've got a book about him.

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.320
<v Speaker 1>So I'm not sure you've ever disagreed with Spillsbury. I

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 1>don't remember you ever saying I don't know, he might

0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.399
<v Speaker 1>be reaching. I feel like you're always sort of like

0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.480
<v Speaker 1>on the same page with this guy from the nineteen thirties.

0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, And I can't remember specific issues in

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:14.440
<v Speaker 2>which Billsbury has weighed in, but you know this from

0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.720
<v Speaker 2>what I remember about him and the sense of what

0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.679
<v Speaker 2>you have presented to me over the various cases. You know,

0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.359
<v Speaker 2>he's an experienced pathologist. He is a true expert. He's

0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:31.359
<v Speaker 2>seen it all, and that's where he's able to come

0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 2>in and provide that level of expertise and draw proper conclusions.

0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 2>And unfortunately, in many parts of you know, the United States,

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 2>and I'm assuming in some parts of England, you don't

0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 2>have pathologists that have that experience and expertise, and so

0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.960
<v Speaker 2>now they're weighing in on cases without that knowledge base,

0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.040
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes they're wrong about what they're concluding.

0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and part of me, he wonders why was he

0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.119
<v Speaker 1>called in on this. He's certainly not the only pathologist

0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.199
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen thirties England. It's not London. I know it

0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.080
<v Speaker 1>on the outset kind of seems like a violent case,

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.359
<v Speaker 1>but they're not sure what happened. And I don't know

0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.720
<v Speaker 1>if it was the family's prominence that he was Canadian

0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and he's here in England, that he's at Oxford University.

0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.920
<v Speaker 1>But this seems like not a special request. But I

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know. It just seems a little odd that he

0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:27.600
<v Speaker 1>would be the one out there. I'm glad he is,

0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:28.920
<v Speaker 1>because we have a lot of information.

0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.200
<v Speaker 2>You know. What's striking me right off the bat about

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Moss being found at this location that he has

0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.960
<v Speaker 2>no ties to is that sounds like they're able to

0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.639
<v Speaker 2>identify him pretty quickly, you know. So there must have

0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.440
<v Speaker 2>been some sort of report, a missing report to indicate, hey,

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 2>we have this Canadian student from a prominent family that's missing,

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.240
<v Speaker 2>and now you have this burned body at a location

0:20:57.640 --> 0:20:59.600
<v Speaker 2>where now authorities are going, well we need to look

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:01.679
<v Speaker 2>at that, and oh, sure enough it's a son of

0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:03.360
<v Speaker 2>this prominent Canadian family.

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we do have some information about Thomas and

0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.080
<v Speaker 1>where he was and you know his whereabouts, and I

0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.040
<v Speaker 1>think people were concerned about him. So let me tell

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 1>you first, there's a kind of an interesting order of things.

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.600
<v Speaker 1>So Spillsbury, my pathology crush, has decided to do a

0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:23.919
<v Speaker 1>postmortem right there where the body is in the field,

0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.960
<v Speaker 1>So there will be a lot more information once he's done,

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.879
<v Speaker 1>you know, with this report. But he has to do

0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.880
<v Speaker 1>a pretty intensive examination back at his lab. Right now,

0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.360
<v Speaker 1>we're just kind of getting information as he's getting it.

0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:39.520
<v Speaker 1>So it's in the field where this is happening. He

0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 1>uses a pop up table. Is that something that happens ever,

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.960
<v Speaker 1>or why would you do that? Yeah, let's start disagreeing

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:48.640
<v Speaker 1>with him right now.

0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.920
<v Speaker 2>No, you know, now, there are times when pathologists do

0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 2>come out into the field, you know, and they want

0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.240
<v Speaker 2>to observe the deceased in the environment prior to the

0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.680
<v Speaker 2>death investigator collecting the body, and that can be very

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.919
<v Speaker 2>valuable to get the pathologist's opinions, you know, early on

0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:13.560
<v Speaker 2>during the crime scene investigation. Outside of when I've seen anthropologists,

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of study the skeletal remains out into

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 2>the field. Typically the body is collected and then taken

0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.639
<v Speaker 2>back to the coroner's office. Emmy's office or Morgue or

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, back in the day funeral homes where the

0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.680
<v Speaker 2>pathologist in a controlled setting can now do the autopsy

0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.840
<v Speaker 2>and has all the tools available in order to do that. So,

0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, Spillsbury must have seen something, you know, that

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.879
<v Speaker 2>was maybe time sensitive. Where he's going, I need to

0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:49.239
<v Speaker 2>take a look now to see what's going on. I

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:53.560
<v Speaker 2>also wonder if there is no nearby facilities. And since

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.879
<v Speaker 2>Spillsberry is traveling, he thought, you know what, I can

0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 2>do this out in the field. You know, I don't

0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:05.680
<v Speaker 2>see that happening today, you know, but I can see

0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.240
<v Speaker 2>where it's it's feasible. I don't you know, there is

0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>a possibility. There's no harm in doing it as long

0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 2>as it's done properly. The proper samples are collected, you know,

0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:16.920
<v Speaker 2>all the specimen jars are available, et cetera.

0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:23.800
<v Speaker 1>So Spillsbury, when he's done with this examination, there will

0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>be a coroner's inquest, but it's paused because Spillsbury takes

0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>more than a week with Thomas's body to figure out

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.480
<v Speaker 1>what's going on. So you'll have questions, but I think

0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.439
<v Speaker 1>he's going to have answers for just about everything. So

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:40.639
<v Speaker 1>he does his post mortem in the field using a

0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.560
<v Speaker 1>propped up door as a makeshift table. Okay, there you.

0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Go, ad Hoc. You know he's having to improvise.

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:50.639
<v Speaker 1>He is, okay, this is what he says, and this

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.480
<v Speaker 1>is pulmonary. He says that Thomas's skull and both of

0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.640
<v Speaker 1>his arms are broken, which I think the farmers could

0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:01.280
<v Speaker 1>tell when he was found, so he says. Billsbury says,

0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:05.159
<v Speaker 1>he thinks that the bones cracked from the fire and

0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:09.160
<v Speaker 1>had not been broken before Thomas had died, So how

0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:10.120
<v Speaker 1>would he know that.

0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, this again goes to case experience and having dealt

0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:18.879
<v Speaker 2>with previous burned bodies. Now you know the skull being

0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:22.120
<v Speaker 2>broken or fractured. That is a very very common thing

0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:26.280
<v Speaker 2>because as the heat from the fire is burning the

0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>victim and burning around the victim's head, of course, the

0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 2>brain matter inside the skull is being subjected to intense heat.

0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.560
<v Speaker 2>And this is where you can actually have the skull

0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 2>somewhat burst from the thermal ad you know, this tissue

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:47.720
<v Speaker 2>expanding and all the heat that's collecting within this closed system.

0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Skulls are very good at resisting pressure from the outside

0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:54.720
<v Speaker 2>in like somebody pressing on your head. The skulls are

0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:58.200
<v Speaker 2>not so good at resisting pressure from the inside out.

0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:02.960
<v Speaker 2>So if the tissue inside the brain under high heat

0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:08.119
<v Speaker 2>is now gaseous and the pressures building up, you often

0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.600
<v Speaker 2>see the skull separate at the suture lines or even fracture.

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>And so he must be seeing something like that. And

0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:18.880
<v Speaker 2>then the broken bones. That's likely telling me that the extremities,

0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 2>at least the upper extremities for Thomas, have been subjected

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 2>to prolonged exposure to fire, and so now the soft

0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:30.639
<v Speaker 2>tissue has been burned away, the bones are in essence

0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 2>turning brittle, and yeah, they lose their integrity, you know.

0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:39.399
<v Speaker 2>So of course initially I start thinking, well, is there

0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:41.840
<v Speaker 2>a chance that this was a bludgeoning and the broken

0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:45.480
<v Speaker 2>arms are a result of defensive you know, defensive posture

0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:47.919
<v Speaker 2>in terms of trying to ward off the bludgeting weapon.

0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:50.440
<v Speaker 2>But I have to rely on spillsbury assessment that this

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:53.440
<v Speaker 2>is thermal injuries versus actual violence.

0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, he'll have a lot more information, but he's taken

0:25:56.720 --> 0:26:00.040
<v Speaker 1>the body. They are continuing to look at the scene.

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 1>And you know, one thing that struck me about the

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 1>photo I sent to you is obviously they take this

0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:09.159
<v Speaker 1>photo of these well dressed men with one either holding

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:11.840
<v Speaker 1>a pipe, a smoking pipe, or a pencil. I'm not

0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:13.520
<v Speaker 1>sure what he's held. He's definitely holding something.

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.440
<v Speaker 2>It looks like a pipe. I mean you can see

0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 2>it looks like where his hand is wrapped around it

0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:22.800
<v Speaker 2>is pretty wide, you know. So, yeah, you're out in

0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:25.720
<v Speaker 2>the middle with all this dry hay and you're smoking great.

0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:28.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And you know my first book, which was Death

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:30.840
<v Speaker 1>in the Air, which was set in London, I talk

0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:34.639
<v Speaker 1>about the Minister of Health who in I think in

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.920
<v Speaker 1>the late fifties early sixties, has a big press conference

0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:42.840
<v Speaker 1>and he's declaring that there is a definitive connection between

0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:47.919
<v Speaker 1>lung cancer and smoking, and he is chain smoking a

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.840
<v Speaker 1>cigarette's chained of smoking cigarettes to the entire press conference

0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 1>where he's talking about these are going to kill you.

0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 1>So there's more irony all over. Okay, So you know

0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:00.360
<v Speaker 1>what I was looking at with that photo is how

0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:04.600
<v Speaker 1>decimated that is. I wonder how long after two forty

0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:09.560
<v Speaker 1>five am that was. Because if the haystacks, the hay

0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:11.880
<v Speaker 1>ricks were as tall as we think they would be,

0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean in a field like that, they just look decimated.

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this looks huge, a huge fire. So This

0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:21.080
<v Speaker 1>could have been three days later and it still looks

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.400
<v Speaker 1>like it's moldering to me. So this was a big deal,

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:23.960
<v Speaker 1>this fire.

0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:27.159
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of fuel at this you know, in

0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:30.880
<v Speaker 2>this fire. Now, hey, it is going to burn quickly.

0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:35.400
<v Speaker 2>But those bailed hay blocks, you know, they're pretty compact,

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.960
<v Speaker 2>so it's sort of like a log in many ways,

0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:41.800
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I have no experience in terms of

0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>how fast something like that would burn, but if you

0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:46.600
<v Speaker 2>have them stacked on top of each other and for

0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.400
<v Speaker 2>them to be completely burned down to the ground, it's

0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 2>probably a very intense fire. And it was going on

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.160
<v Speaker 2>for a period of time, Yeah, a significant period of time.

0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:58.199
<v Speaker 1>And we don't know who this guy just happened to

0:27:58.200 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 1>see it at two forty five. We don't even know

0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 1>when it started. Sure, okay, let me tell you what

0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 1>else they found. So I told you that there's the

0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 1>belt fragment that has Thomas's name on it, and there

0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:11.480
<v Speaker 1>were some other things that were not completely burned that

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 1>were found with his body, including a pair of cuff

0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:17.399
<v Speaker 1>links that were later identified as his and some money

0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 1>which is three shillings and twopence. And remember this is

0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:24.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, nineteen thirty so this is about twenty bucks.

0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Today, okay, and these are coins, yes.

0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>And you know, so you've got not incredible valuables. But

0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:33.760
<v Speaker 1>he's got a leather belt, he's got you know, some

0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:36.119
<v Speaker 1>cuff links that seem really nice, and he's got some

0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 1>money on him and none of those things are taken.

0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Now.

0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:40.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what else he had on him, but

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:42.239
<v Speaker 1>that's a thing. I mean, you know, we're looking if

0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:46.760
<v Speaker 1>if robbery is a motive for anything, that's one thing.

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, you know, And this is part of the problem

0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:53.760
<v Speaker 2>with fires. Fires could be so devastating to the crime

0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:59.800
<v Speaker 2>scene that there's always missing information because fire has destroyed it.

0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:04.320
<v Speaker 2>So you know, is there a possibility that, you know,

0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:07.840
<v Speaker 2>something had been taken from Thomas. Yeah, you know, it's possible,

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.480
<v Speaker 2>but it's notable that these particular items that do have

0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:13.280
<v Speaker 2>some value were left behind.

0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Also, his watch. We've had this happen before two So

0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:19.840
<v Speaker 1>the leather strap is burned away, but they find the

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.960
<v Speaker 1>watch and it's the face is still readable. It stopped

0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:26.600
<v Speaker 1>at two ten am, So this is thirty five minutes

0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 1>before the farmer saw the fire. Is that a pretty

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:31.160
<v Speaker 1>good time stamp for something?

0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the time in which the watch being subjected to

0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the fire stopped working. Gives no information as to when

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Thomas was put out there, nor when the fire was started.

0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:48.880
<v Speaker 1>So the farmer whose field Thomas was found in, who

0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure is upset for many different reasons a body

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:55.200
<v Speaker 1>being found in his field and all of it being destroyed.

0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:58.120
<v Speaker 1>He brings a reporter to the spot in the field

0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 1>where the body was. It's a reporter, not a photographer.

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:04.400
<v Speaker 1>We don't have a photo of this, And according to

0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 1>the photographer and the farmer, it's the only spot in

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.840
<v Speaker 1>the entire hayfield that hasn't been completely burned. And this

0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:15.600
<v Speaker 1>becomes important to Spillsbury. There's still hay on the spot

0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:18.680
<v Speaker 1>where Thomas's body has been found, while all the other

0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 1>hay in the field has been reduced to ash okay.

0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 1>So the farmer thinks that this particular haystack has been wet,

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 1>and he says that if Thomas had decided to go

0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:33.680
<v Speaker 1>to sleep on a haystack, there would have been no

0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:36.120
<v Speaker 1>reason for him to pick a wet one when all

0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:40.240
<v Speaker 1>the other ones which completely burned down, were you know, dry.

0:30:40.800 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So for a while the investigators until we hear back

0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:48.960
<v Speaker 1>from Spillsbury. Think, what if this guy, which happens, wanders

0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:51.840
<v Speaker 1>down the road, you know, early the night before and

0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 1>decides to take a nap in between you know, some haystacks.

0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 1>He's covered and if it's a nice night and it's

0:30:57.960 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 1>not raining, why not.

0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And this is something that has to be considered

0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 2>at this point. Is is this a accidental death. I'm

0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:11.959
<v Speaker 2>not sure what Thomas would have done to cause the

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:17.320
<v Speaker 2>fire himself, but he chose a location that I have

0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:21.040
<v Speaker 2>to rely upon the farmer's expertise, going, Hey, the reason

0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:23.480
<v Speaker 2>this hey didn't burn is because it was wetter than

0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.440
<v Speaker 2>the other. You know, but Tom was Thomas smoking and

0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.360
<v Speaker 2>he falls asleep. You know, right now, we don't have

0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:32.800
<v Speaker 2>any indication that Thomas has is inebriated. He's a toxic

0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:35.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's under the influence of alcohol, and you know,

0:31:35.200 --> 0:31:38.360
<v Speaker 2>he nods off and then he lights the dryer hay

0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.240
<v Speaker 2>stacks around him just you know, the cigarette just happens

0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:44.200
<v Speaker 2>to catch something on fire and it goes Yeah. I

0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:47.640
<v Speaker 2>was also when you were describing it, I was wondering,

0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, is this just where you have Thomas's body

0:31:50.800 --> 0:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>laying on top of some hay. And let's say the

0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:58.800
<v Speaker 2>offender lights Thomas on fire, and the fire spreads to

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:02.280
<v Speaker 2>all these other dry haystacks, you know, but Thomas's body,

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:06.480
<v Speaker 2>though it's being burned, in essence, is protecting the hay

0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:10.000
<v Speaker 2>underneath where he's laying. So by the time they actually

0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 2>discover Thomas, the fire hasn't gotten into this protected area.

0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:18.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting because the farmer and

0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the reporter are not saying the hay is wet right now.

0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:22.920
<v Speaker 1>They're just trying to figure out why there would be

0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 1>this hey, you know, with the cows coming over, why

0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:29.920
<v Speaker 1>this hay would be not burned and everything else around

0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:31.840
<v Speaker 1>it would be. And it's also a little bit confusing

0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:36.200
<v Speaker 1>about how big these haystacks are because you know, they're

0:32:36.360 --> 0:32:38.800
<v Speaker 1>sort of an indication that the investigators are wondering, right

0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:41.320
<v Speaker 1>if he would have fallen asleep because he's protected on

0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 1>both sides from the wind between two haystacks. But the

0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 1>farmer says, on a haystack, so it could have been

0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, ten bails and that was it. We don't

0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 1>know yet, Okay, corners in quest starts and this is

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:59.400
<v Speaker 1>the day after Thomas's body is discovered, his identity is established.

0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 1>You know, what happens with the belt? They find this belt,

0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the cuff links his clothing. They talked to his family

0:33:08.720 --> 0:33:12.520
<v Speaker 1>and so they're concluding and the tooth, they're concluding that

0:33:12.560 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 1>this is Thomas. Here's something weird. It comes out that

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:18.720
<v Speaker 1>there is a box of matches that was still in

0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Thomas's pocket, and the box and the matches were burned,

0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 1>but they were still recognizable. It's agreed by the investigators

0:33:25.720 --> 0:33:28.719
<v Speaker 1>at least that if Thomas had set the hay on

0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.320
<v Speaker 1>fire himself, he would have had to do so with

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.760
<v Speaker 1>a different box of matches, since the group does not

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.920
<v Speaker 1>believe that he could have gotten this box back in

0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:41.280
<v Speaker 1>his pocket. Like the kind of explosion of lighting this

0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 1>hay would have, you know, prevented him from putting the

0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 1>box back in his pocket. I'm not sure what that

0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 1>would be the case.

0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm skeptical about that conclusion. I'm imagining Thomas with this

0:33:52.520 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 2>box of matches, he lights a match, you know, puts

0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.560
<v Speaker 2>the box back in the pocket, flicks the match away

0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:01.719
<v Speaker 2>on that match goes and falls on some dry hay,

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>and then the fire would spread reasoningly rapidly but I

0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:08.640
<v Speaker 2>don't see it being like this explosive, you know, where

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Thomas is immediately incapacitated as soon as that fire starts.

0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:16.000
<v Speaker 2>So you know, this is where you know Thomas at

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:20.120
<v Speaker 2>least does have the ability to start the fire himself.

0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Authorities are going back and forth almost on a

0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:26.719
<v Speaker 1>daily basis on you know, is this murder and a

0:34:26.760 --> 0:34:30.520
<v Speaker 1>cover up or is this Thomas took his own life

0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:33.759
<v Speaker 1>or something accidentally happened. We don't know. Accidental death is

0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of what they're leaning towards, but they're not sure.

0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:40.200
<v Speaker 1>They talked to Thomas's friends at the Oxford Law School

0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.719
<v Speaker 1>and they say they don't think that Thomas would have

0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:46.400
<v Speaker 1>taken his own life, which this seems like an odd

0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:48.719
<v Speaker 1>way to do it, but it has to be on

0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:51.399
<v Speaker 1>the table. He was a week away from graduating. They're

0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:55.759
<v Speaker 1>confused about why he would have walked from Oxford to

0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.800
<v Speaker 1>this tiny rural area when there's nine miles in between

0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:02.879
<v Speaker 1>them and this is a desolate country road late at night.

0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:05.920
<v Speaker 1>They don't know how he got there. Let me tell

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.000
<v Speaker 1>you the timeline. So ten point fifty on Thursday, than

0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the night before, he's seen about nine miles away in

0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Oxford's boardwalk and he seems to be walking back to

0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:19.640
<v Speaker 1>his hostel or his student housing is what they would

0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:22.759
<v Speaker 1>have called it. At one ten in the morning, a

0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:26.319
<v Speaker 1>postal worker passes by the hayfield. Nothing, nothing's wrong, but

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, he wouldn't have seen Thomas, most likely anyway

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:32.600
<v Speaker 1>from the road. Two ten, an hour later, Thomas's watch

0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:36.040
<v Speaker 1>stops to forty five the farmhand's seen the fire, and

0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:39.240
<v Speaker 1>then three thirty they finally find his body after forty

0:35:39.239 --> 0:35:42.600
<v Speaker 1>five minutes. So one thing I think most people agree

0:35:42.640 --> 0:35:46.279
<v Speaker 1>on is nobody sees this guy walking nine miles in

0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 1>the dark by himself to get to a haystack, only

0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.920
<v Speaker 1>to fall asleep on some hay in between it and

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:56.560
<v Speaker 1>then everything goes up in flames. So it's the transportation

0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:59.640
<v Speaker 1>that I think bugs everybody the most. What how did

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:00.200
<v Speaker 1>he get there?

0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we're getting into sort of the core

0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:09.360
<v Speaker 2>of the initial investigative thrust. You have Thomas from a wealthy,

0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:12.279
<v Speaker 2>prominent family who has no ties to location where his

0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.520
<v Speaker 2>body is found. You know, I was wondering, you know,

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.160
<v Speaker 2>was he you know, like a farm hand, you know,

0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of moonlighting, you know, to get some money or

0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:24.240
<v Speaker 2>something like that. But sounds like he has no connection

0:36:24.320 --> 0:36:27.399
<v Speaker 2>to this particular location. So you have a timeline where

0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:31.839
<v Speaker 2>he is now seen at ten fifty pm walking towards

0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:37.840
<v Speaker 2>his residence on the Oxford campus. Yes, okay, So now

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:41.640
<v Speaker 2>this is where the focus has to start in terms

0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:46.400
<v Speaker 2>of okay, you have one witness. What does his residence suggest,

0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, does it look like he made it back

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:52.360
<v Speaker 2>to the residence. Is there anything that looks amiss inside

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the residence? Was he abducted out of the residence? What

0:36:55.880 --> 0:37:01.720
<v Speaker 2>other aspects of Thomas's victimology would suggest that maybe there's

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:06.120
<v Speaker 2>something else going on in his life that could cause

0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 2>him to become a victim of homicide. And now you

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.560
<v Speaker 2>do have the possibility of a body disposal out there

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>in the hayfield, with the hayfields being set on fire,

0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and this might give some insight if that's what happened.

0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:22.919
<v Speaker 2>The fact that the offender chose the hayfield and lit

0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the hayfield on fire, they purposely took Thomas's body out there,

0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:31.360
<v Speaker 2>that might suggest that the offender has some familiarity with

0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:35.640
<v Speaker 2>that particular location and being able to possibly cover up

0:37:35.640 --> 0:37:38.520
<v Speaker 2>a crime using the fire and the hay.

0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:42.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me give you some details about Thomas. But

0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:45.439
<v Speaker 1>first let me tell you the speculation which I hadn't

0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 1>thought of. So there is a lot of speculation that

0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:52.600
<v Speaker 1>maybe Thomas was hit by a car, accidentally killed, and

0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:55.320
<v Speaker 1>then the motorist dumped his body in this hay field

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:58.640
<v Speaker 1>and set it on fire. Then that still brings Thomas

0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.960
<v Speaker 1>back to walking to someplace he doesn't have a connection

0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:04.360
<v Speaker 1>to for no good reason. I don't know if I

0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:06.560
<v Speaker 1>buy into that, but they're they're just reaching for anything

0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:07.280
<v Speaker 1>at this point.

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Well sure, you know, and this is where what does

0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the autopsy show. You know, we have some preliminary information

0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:18.560
<v Speaker 2>from Spillsbury cutting into Thomas's body on the door out

0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.680
<v Speaker 2>there at the hayfield, you know, but I imagine that

0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:25.360
<v Speaker 2>there is more extensive autopsy done. You know, in pedestrian

0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:29.440
<v Speaker 2>injuries for motor vehicles, you know, they can be quite extensive.

0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:33.440
<v Speaker 2>And that would probably stand out. If if Thomas is

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:37.160
<v Speaker 2>walking and you have a motor vehicle striking him, it's

0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:41.719
<v Speaker 2>possible you have massive lower leg fractures if he was

0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:46.719
<v Speaker 2>run over. And nineteen thirty six England, I mean you

0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:49.880
<v Speaker 2>have cars. I mean these are legitimate vehicles.

0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, heavy cars.

0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 2>They're heavy, Yeah, you know, they're made out of steel,

0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:57.919
<v Speaker 2>and I would expect under that scenario that there would

0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:01.600
<v Speaker 2>be some indication of that level of violence from a

0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 2>motor vehicle that Spillsbury would be able to see even

0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>with the thermal damage to Thomas's body.

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me tell you about Thomas, because Billsbury's almost done.

0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.000
<v Speaker 1>He's getting there. But he's almost done with this examination.

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Like I said, it's taken more than a week. I know,

0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:21.080
<v Speaker 1>but he knows what he's doing. I think we'll see

0:39:21.120 --> 0:39:24.000
<v Speaker 1>if he's like, you know, batting one thousand.

0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I could tell you the investigators are standing there going,

0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:31.040
<v Speaker 2>come on, doc. I know they're like tapping their feet, going,

0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:32.480
<v Speaker 2>we need to get rolling on this.

0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Their speculation all over the place, especially if there's a

0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:38.719
<v Speaker 1>murderer running around. So in the meantime, the police start

0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:41.480
<v Speaker 1>grabbing all of his friends from Oxford to try to

0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 1>figure out the timeline and what he was like in general.

0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:47.960
<v Speaker 1>There is a classmate in Oxford who testified to the

0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:51.399
<v Speaker 1>police for an hour, and you know, I'll go through

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 1>what that person says. First, there's an ear witness. There

0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:57.480
<v Speaker 1>was a woman in a village and she said that

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:01.879
<v Speaker 1>near the Hayfield she was in earshot and she could

0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.160
<v Speaker 1>hear a scream. The night that Thomas died. She said

0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:09.960
<v Speaker 1>she saw a car drive quickly through the village and

0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:13.120
<v Speaker 1>then toward the hayfield and then away from the hayfield.

0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:16.600
<v Speaker 1>But this is something that you know, is reported briefly.

0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:19.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not something in the police notes that we saw,

0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:21.919
<v Speaker 1>and it was in the newspaper and that was it,

0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.960
<v Speaker 1>and it doesn't actually come up in the actual inquest.

0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:28.560
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if this woman was discredited or what.

0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.480
<v Speaker 1>But this is the this is the closest thing that

0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:34.880
<v Speaker 1>I've seen to something that really was sort of like WHOA, Okay,

0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:35.760
<v Speaker 1>that's interesting.

0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:40.080
<v Speaker 2>And she doesn't give any details about the scream, like

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:42.920
<v Speaker 2>was there a word being screamed or was it Did

0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:45.120
<v Speaker 2>it sound like a male versus female voice?

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:48.400
<v Speaker 1>No, it just the scream. To me, I think was

0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 1>sort of in pain. But no, she couldn't say anything

0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 1>about that. It was a little bit more because this

0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:57.600
<v Speaker 1>is such a tiny village. I think it was very

0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:00.680
<v Speaker 1>noticeable that a car was coming out in and coming

0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.680
<v Speaker 1>out so quickly, and that's really what she noticed also,

0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:06.520
<v Speaker 1>So take that for what it's worth. Here's another weird

0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:08.160
<v Speaker 1>thing I don't actually think this is going to make

0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:12.120
<v Speaker 1>a difference, but I find it slightly amusing. It's reported

0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:14.400
<v Speaker 1>that the police are looking for two letters that a

0:41:14.400 --> 0:41:17.840
<v Speaker 1>street cleaner in Oxford, So where he went to school,

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:22.440
<v Speaker 1>found on May eighteenth, which is two days after Thomas

0:41:22.520 --> 0:41:26.560
<v Speaker 1>was found. The street cleaner found these letters, two of them,

0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:30.600
<v Speaker 1>and they both had been signed Pat Moss. So Thomas's

0:41:30.719 --> 0:41:33.879
<v Speaker 1>name was you know, Thomas Pattison Moss, so it could

0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:37.120
<v Speaker 1>have been Pat Moss. It also might be another Pat Moss.

0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:39.920
<v Speaker 1>The street cleaner says he didn't open them and gave

0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:42.520
<v Speaker 1>the two letters to two people who had been sitting

0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:47.000
<v Speaker 1>on a nearby bench because they had a car, and

0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:49.640
<v Speaker 1>he said, can you bring these letters to the police.

0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:52.440
<v Speaker 1>But the police never got these letters. I don't know

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:54.920
<v Speaker 1>why he wouldn't take them himself. But if these letters

0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:57.719
<v Speaker 1>were at all significant, they're in the wind at this point.

0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:00.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we have no details what these leves said.

0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:04.040
<v Speaker 1>No, no, and we have I mean, we've been down

0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.279
<v Speaker 1>the letter route on many other stories where you know,

0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:09.920
<v Speaker 1>it's like, where's this come from? Is this significant? Sometimes

0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:10.840
<v Speaker 1>it is, sometimes it's not.

0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And do we know would Thomas sign his name

0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Pat Moss. Is this consistent.

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:21.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they even looked into that, so I

0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:26.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know. Okay. May twenty ninth is when we pick

0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:30.080
<v Speaker 1>up the inquest again. There's one witness. He is a

0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.160
<v Speaker 1>classmate at Oxford. This is the one who I think

0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:35.440
<v Speaker 1>spoke to the police for more than an hour. The

0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:38.200
<v Speaker 1>rest of this inquest, which I know is driving people crazy,

0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:42.520
<v Speaker 1>gets pushed to June because everyone's taking final exams at

0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Oxford and so these witnesses are not available. This guy is.

0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:51.440
<v Speaker 1>He says that he last saw Thomas about eight fifteen

0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:54.160
<v Speaker 1>pm the night before he died, so that would have

0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:58.480
<v Speaker 1>been Thursday night if he died Friday early morning. This

0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:02.280
<v Speaker 1>was right after a dinner at the college within Oxford

0:43:02.360 --> 0:43:05.840
<v Speaker 1>University where he was. The classmate says that Thomas seemed

0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:08.360
<v Speaker 1>totally normal. He was a good guy, He had a

0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of friends, He was handsome, He was not in

0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the habit of walking alone that he never walked alone

0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:18.319
<v Speaker 1>in the countryside. He was generally a pretty happy guy. Now,

0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:21.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how he knows that this was not

0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:24.799
<v Speaker 1>something that Thomas would do. I doubt they had a conversation,

0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:26.719
<v Speaker 1>but it just wasn't in his habit to go on

0:43:26.880 --> 0:43:29.880
<v Speaker 1>like a stroll or a walk about by himself. It

0:43:29.880 --> 0:43:32.600
<v Speaker 1>would have been unusual according to this friend. They don't

0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:36.759
<v Speaker 1>know anything else except there's one witness who said they

0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:39.560
<v Speaker 1>saw him at ten point fifty but just kind of

0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:43.160
<v Speaker 1>passing by and that was it. Nobody else knows what

0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:46.440
<v Speaker 1>happened after this with Thomas, So we don't have a

0:43:46.480 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of information about enemies, girlfriends, anything like that. It

0:43:51.120 --> 0:43:52.680
<v Speaker 1>just sounds like this is a guy just trying to

0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:56.439
<v Speaker 1>make it through school at a very challenging school, average life,

0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.400
<v Speaker 1>except he's from a very upper class family and that's

0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:02.400
<v Speaker 1>it as far as character, witnesses or anything like that.

0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so at this point we don't have an investigative

0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:09.080
<v Speaker 2>direction to where we can start focusing in on a

0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 2>smaller suspect pool. I mean, basically, this investigation is wide

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:16.239
<v Speaker 2>open at this point, and it's still they're doing this

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:20.640
<v Speaker 2>corner's inquest and they're trying, probably trying to get present

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:24.799
<v Speaker 2>information so they can get the manner of death for

0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the death certificate. You know, that's what the inquest is

0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:31.000
<v Speaker 2>there for. Was this death at the hands of another,

0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Was this an accident? Was this natural? So at some

0:44:34.680 --> 0:44:39.359
<v Speaker 2>point during this inquest. Spillsbury has to come forward and

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:44.400
<v Speaker 2>provide his findings, because that's critical. We have the fractured

0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:47.400
<v Speaker 2>skull and the broken bones, which he's saying appear to

0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:49.720
<v Speaker 2>be from the fire. You know what else is he finding?

0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:55.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's time he's finally done. It's a month later.

0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:59.279
<v Speaker 1>There's been delays after delays. It's I know, June eighteenth,

0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:02.000
<v Speaker 1>so this is a month later. He comes back with

0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.960
<v Speaker 1>his analysis. There are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:09.279
<v Speaker 1>nineteen e There's like fifteen points that he makes. So

0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 1>I thought I had the idea that either we could

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:13.920
<v Speaker 1>go point by a point and I'll pause and look

0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:15.480
<v Speaker 1>at you, or you could put your hand up if

0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:17.319
<v Speaker 1>you want to comment on one of these points. But

0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:20.560
<v Speaker 1>he tries to go through every scenario in his head

0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:23.360
<v Speaker 1>and see if the evidence matches up to it that

0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:25.400
<v Speaker 1>he finds. So how do you want to handle this,

0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:26.800
<v Speaker 1>detective holes.

0:45:27.120 --> 0:45:29.920
<v Speaker 2>I think I want to hear the totality of his

0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:33.839
<v Speaker 2>findings and then I can kind of weigh in after that.

0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, this is what Spillsbury says. So Thomas's stomach contents

0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:42.080
<v Speaker 1>showed no sign of any poison, so he spent a

0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:44.719
<v Speaker 1>lot of time looking for poison a bottle, so they

0:45:44.719 --> 0:45:47.480
<v Speaker 1>had found a bottle near his body was burned too

0:45:47.480 --> 0:45:49.359
<v Speaker 1>badly to know what had been in and it looked

0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:51.279
<v Speaker 1>like maybe it was a prescription bottle, but there was

0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:54.440
<v Speaker 1>no way to know sure. He says. There was no

0:45:54.560 --> 0:45:59.080
<v Speaker 1>smell of gasoline petrol on what remained of Thomas's clothes,

0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.560
<v Speaker 1>so he didn't smell that kind of an accelerant. There

0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:06.120
<v Speaker 1>were no injuries on Thomas's body other than what occurred

0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:09.360
<v Speaker 1>during the fire. He says, all of his organs are intact.

0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:12.480
<v Speaker 1>He thinks this means kind of exactly what you said

0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:15.640
<v Speaker 1>that Thomas did not get hit by a car, otherwise

0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.359
<v Speaker 1>he would have seen some significant damage. And there were

0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:22.760
<v Speaker 1>no ligature marks or any other marks of strangulation on Thomas.

0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:26.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, and that's I think I'll comment on that is,

0:46:26.360 --> 0:46:30.520
<v Speaker 2>if I don't know the extent of the fire damage

0:46:30.520 --> 0:46:32.840
<v Speaker 2>to Thomas in terms of how much of his body

0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 2>was really destroyed by the fire. So for Spillsbury to

0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:41.560
<v Speaker 2>draw conclusion saying I'm not seeing evidence of strangulation, whether

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:45.080
<v Speaker 2>it be ligature or manual strangulation. That tells me that

0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:48.200
<v Speaker 2>the next structures must have been intact enough for Spillsbury

0:46:48.239 --> 0:46:49.240
<v Speaker 2>to form that opinion.

0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're going to like this next bit. Well, first,

0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:54.640
<v Speaker 1>let me tell you Thomas was healthy. There's no disease

0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:58.279
<v Speaker 1>or anything that would point to something happening. This is

0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:00.080
<v Speaker 1>what he says. It's like you guys are of the

0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:03.279
<v Speaker 1>same mind because you say something and I have. That's

0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 1>my next note. This is what he says about the

0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:08.640
<v Speaker 1>body being burnt. Okay, no, you'll like this. Okay, tell

0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:10.680
<v Speaker 1>me what you think. This is what he says. This

0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:13.520
<v Speaker 1>is a quote. The body was severely burned, but the

0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:17.920
<v Speaker 1>changes were of an unusual character in that while the

0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:21.080
<v Speaker 1>destruction of the tissues was limited to parts of the

0:47:21.120 --> 0:47:25.320
<v Speaker 1>limbs and the top of the head, the heating effects

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:30.360
<v Speaker 1>were general and extended very deeply into the head and

0:47:30.440 --> 0:47:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the trunk. He believes that Thomas was exposed to the

0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.600
<v Speaker 1>effects of high heat much longer than he was exposed

0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:39.480
<v Speaker 1>to the flames.

0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:46.160
<v Speaker 2>So the location of the thermal damage, that's telling me,

0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.640
<v Speaker 2>And it was the arms and sounds like it was

0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:51.279
<v Speaker 2>the upper part of his head. Well, that indicates the

0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:54.440
<v Speaker 2>way that Thomas was laying I'm assuming on the ground

0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:57.400
<v Speaker 2>or on top of some hay. Well, that part of

0:47:57.440 --> 0:48:00.400
<v Speaker 2>his body is where the fire is raging, and so

0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:03.239
<v Speaker 2>you got that he's closest to the fire with his

0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:06.240
<v Speaker 2>head and his arms, but the rest of his body

0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:10.760
<v Speaker 2>is not. It's further away and it's not on fire.

0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:15.360
<v Speaker 2>So eventually he's probably got the fire encroaching on his

0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.560
<v Speaker 2>body or he's starting to burn. When the rescuers come

0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:22.239
<v Speaker 2>and put out the fire, the cows say hey, look,

0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:25.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, the cows basically stop Thomas's body from being

0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:30.040
<v Speaker 2>turned to ashes. You know, that's that's interesting from a

0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:34.279
<v Speaker 2>what is the point of origin of the fire. So

0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:39.399
<v Speaker 2>if this was a body disposal, typically the offenders are

0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:44.960
<v Speaker 2>going to light the body on fire and the surrounding flammables,

0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:49.320
<v Speaker 2>you know. And Spillsbury saying I'm not detecting the odor

0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:53.960
<v Speaker 2>of gasoline coming from from his body doesn't mean an

0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.719
<v Speaker 2>accelerant wasn't used. It's possible an accelerant was used in

0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:01.640
<v Speaker 2>order to help light some of the hate surrounding Thomas's body,

0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:06.000
<v Speaker 2>or the high heat has burned away the volatiles that

0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:10.680
<v Speaker 2>now Spillsbury can't smell. You know, Typically, like gasoline has

0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:15.200
<v Speaker 2>a wide variety of different volatiles in it, and the

0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:17.680
<v Speaker 2>lighter ones will burn away very quickly, but you can

0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.799
<v Speaker 2>still have some of the heavier volatiles that might be

0:49:21.960 --> 0:49:25.520
<v Speaker 2>present that might contribute to a gasoline like smell. But

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:29.800
<v Speaker 2>there's other flammables that are very very lightweight that probably

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:34.440
<v Speaker 2>with the high heat, could have evaporated completely. But the

0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:38.680
<v Speaker 2>lack of the burning on Thomas's body suggests he wasn't

0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:44.560
<v Speaker 2>lit on fire. The fire started somewhere else and was

0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.279
<v Speaker 2>coming towards him, with the fire being the closest to

0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:50.080
<v Speaker 2>his head. In his arms, he.

0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:52.640
<v Speaker 1>Has even more stuff than I think. This is all

0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:56.120
<v Speaker 1>really interesting. He says that the skin on Thomas's back

0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:59.400
<v Speaker 1>was less burned than on other areas of his body.

0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Spillsbury thinks that Thomas was laying on his back and

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.360
<v Speaker 1>that's why, Yes, so listen to this. There were hay

0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:12.680
<v Speaker 1>fragments inside Thomas's air passages, they were only partially burned.

0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Thomas's blood was bright red, indicating, of course, you know,

0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:20.000
<v Speaker 1>exposure to carbon monoxide. We've talked about that before, which

0:50:20.040 --> 0:50:24.200
<v Speaker 1>is a byproduct of burning hay. And Spillsbury thinks that

0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Thomas was unconscious by the time he inhaled these pieces

0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:31.880
<v Speaker 1>of hay, because otherwise he would have woken up, and

0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:34.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, if he had the ability to wake up

0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:37.840
<v Speaker 1>and gotten up, if this is an accident, So what

0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:39.920
<v Speaker 1>do you think about that stuff? You know, in his

0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:41.759
<v Speaker 1>nasal passages, these pieces.

0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Of hay, It suggests this is in many ways, it's

0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:49.640
<v Speaker 2>like pathologists findings and drowning. You know, the innhilation of

0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:53.880
<v Speaker 2>water into the lungs suggests, you know, the individual was

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>at least breathing at the time the water was inhaled.

0:50:57.000 --> 0:51:02.200
<v Speaker 2>Here it sounds like Thomas is still breathing and is

0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:07.799
<v Speaker 2>pulling in these fragments of partially burned hay particles, which

0:51:07.840 --> 0:51:12.600
<v Speaker 2>suggests that the fire is going and Thomas is still breathing.

0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:16.239
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't mean he has awareness. He could be laying there,

0:51:16.360 --> 0:51:20.279
<v Speaker 2>still alive, still breathing, but he's now succumbed to the

0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:24.920
<v Speaker 2>smoke inhalation, the bright red blood carbon monoxide. You know,

0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:28.120
<v Speaker 2>so he is in the process of dying as a

0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:31.880
<v Speaker 2>result of lack of oxygen to his body while the

0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:35.080
<v Speaker 2>fire is going on. And that's probably all you can

0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:39.360
<v Speaker 2>conclude with that, But it also suggests that, well, this

0:51:39.480 --> 0:51:42.800
<v Speaker 2>isn't a situation to where let's say he was killed

0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:46.960
<v Speaker 2>in some other location and then the offender drove his

0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:52.160
<v Speaker 2>body out to this location and started the fire. Unless, however, Thomas,

0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:54.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, succumbed to whatever the offender did to him

0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:57.279
<v Speaker 2>at the first location, I would expect him to be

0:51:57.320 --> 0:52:00.440
<v Speaker 2>dead by the time his body's at this location. So

0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, what is going on here? Is this homicide?

0:52:04.560 --> 0:52:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Is this accidental? I don't see it as being suicide,

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:11.279
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know if you could rule that out,

0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:15.480
<v Speaker 2>considering Thomas has a source of starting a fire with

0:52:15.560 --> 0:52:18.759
<v Speaker 2>the matchbook that's in his pocket, you know, And I

0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:20.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know right now. I think it's it's still a

0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:21.680
<v Speaker 2>mystery with what you've told me.

0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, maybe this will help make it less of a mystery.

0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:28.239
<v Speaker 1>And no, this is not a gotcha. Yeah, this is

0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:32.080
<v Speaker 1>just something that was part of the investigation. It's true.

0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:37.239
<v Speaker 1>So Spillsbury did a lot of research and I just

0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.440
<v Speaker 1>read this too. I did not know that hey can

0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:46.080
<v Speaker 1>spontaneously combust. Okay, it happens. Wet hay is actually more

0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:51.640
<v Speaker 1>likely to spontaneously combust than dry They said that biological

0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:55.719
<v Speaker 1>activity within the hay, which I guess happens more often

0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:58.319
<v Speaker 1>because it's if it's wet that it sets off a

0:52:58.360 --> 0:53:02.240
<v Speaker 1>chemical reaction that generates enough heat to light hay on fire.

0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:05.719
<v Speaker 1>I've heard about that growing up, and this is what

0:53:05.840 --> 0:53:10.799
<v Speaker 1>Spillsbury thinks happened. So he thinks that Thomas laid down

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:13.799
<v Speaker 1>to go to sleep on some damp straw between two

0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:16.520
<v Speaker 1>haystacks so that he's protected from you know, I don't

0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.439
<v Speaker 1>know the wind or people walking up on him, one

0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:22.200
<v Speaker 1>of which was probably about to combust because it did happen,

0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:25.360
<v Speaker 1>and that he was affixiated from a lack of oxygen

0:53:25.400 --> 0:53:27.880
<v Speaker 1>by lying so close to the smoldering fire, and he

0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:31.560
<v Speaker 1>was likely dead before the haystack fully burst into flames

0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.680
<v Speaker 1>and burned his body. And that's what he thinks happened.

0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:38.040
<v Speaker 2>What do you think, Well, I am familiar. You do

0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:42.600
<v Speaker 2>have various agricultural products, you know, like in silos or

0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:47.000
<v Speaker 2>something where there is the possibility of this spontaneous combustion,

0:53:47.400 --> 0:53:50.640
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes it has to do with particulates that are

0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:54.120
<v Speaker 2>in this enclosed space getting up to a certain level.

0:53:54.400 --> 0:53:58.560
<v Speaker 2>First time, I'm hearing about wet hay you know, but

0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:04.719
<v Speaker 2>that's not apprizing to me. I not arguing against that

0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:09.400
<v Speaker 2>as a possibility because of the lack of violence to

0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:13.680
<v Speaker 2>Thomas's body, but the question still remains, why is Thomas

0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:14.640
<v Speaker 2>out at this location?

0:54:15.200 --> 0:54:20.719
<v Speaker 1>Yep? And that's what bothers the coroner's jury because you know,

0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:24.120
<v Speaker 1>ultimately they agree with Spillsbury. They had all had heard

0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:26.680
<v Speaker 1>about this before. It's a known phenomenon which I had

0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:29.920
<v Speaker 1>not heard of before. So Spillsbury says this and everybody

0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:33.920
<v Speaker 1>buys it, except the jury does not think there is

0:54:34.160 --> 0:54:36.719
<v Speaker 1>a reasonable explanation for why he would have gone to

0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:37.920
<v Speaker 1>this place to begin with.

0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Sure, and you have the ear witness.

0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the scream and the car.

0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:46.480
<v Speaker 2>And then you have the car. You know, from my perspective,

0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that puts enough suspicion into what is the manner of

0:54:51.920 --> 0:54:56.359
<v Speaker 2>death that you know, I think today the ruling should

0:54:56.360 --> 0:55:00.400
<v Speaker 2>be undetermined. Okay, just because there's enough suspicious activity with

0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:05.040
<v Speaker 2>witnesses and Thomas's victimology that you go, okay, we don't

0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:07.640
<v Speaker 2>know how he died in terms of well let me

0:55:07.719 --> 0:55:10.399
<v Speaker 2>let me let me say it differently. It appears at

0:55:10.440 --> 0:55:13.200
<v Speaker 2>the fire was the cause of his death, but we

0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:18.759
<v Speaker 2>don't know was this accidental because of spontaneous combustion. We

0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:22.279
<v Speaker 2>don't know is this at the hands of another And

0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Thomas was you know, forced to be out there, or

0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:30.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe he was knocked unconscious and the amount of thermal

0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:35.000
<v Speaker 2>damage to his skull is not allowing Spillsbury to see

0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:38.160
<v Speaker 2>that there may have been, you know, a blow to

0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:40.839
<v Speaker 2>his head, you know, and then the fire was lit.

0:55:40.880 --> 0:55:45.400
<v Speaker 2>And this is I think important from a crime scene standpoint,

0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:49.319
<v Speaker 2>is in this day and age, this is where I

0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:54.480
<v Speaker 2>get the state Fire Marshal's office, the arson investigator out

0:55:54.680 --> 0:55:59.920
<v Speaker 2>or the local fire department's arson investigators out to answer

0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:03.279
<v Speaker 2>a question, how did this fire start? You know? And

0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.080
<v Speaker 2>they're the ones that have the expertise, not I. They

0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:08.800
<v Speaker 2>can see, they see the you know, the fire world.

0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:13.160
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's it's amazing to watch them work because

0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:17.640
<v Speaker 2>they cease so much that I can't spot because I

0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:21.840
<v Speaker 2>don't have that day in, day out experience of looking

0:56:21.880 --> 0:56:23.560
<v Speaker 2>at the world after it's been burned.

0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:28.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but let's just buy into his theory that it

0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:32.120
<v Speaker 1>is the spontaneous combustion of these hay stacks or one

0:56:32.120 --> 0:56:35.000
<v Speaker 1>of them that did this, that he was asleep, he

0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:38.160
<v Speaker 1>was close to the one that combusted, and the fumes

0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:40.759
<v Speaker 1>got him first, and by the time everything went up

0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:43.480
<v Speaker 1>in flames, he was already dead. Does everything that he

0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:46.800
<v Speaker 1>is detailing lack of poison, lack of you know, disease,

0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:50.439
<v Speaker 1>the hay in the nostrils, all of that stuff makes

0:56:50.440 --> 0:56:53.000
<v Speaker 1>sense to you if we are going to buy into

0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:54.240
<v Speaker 1>the combustion theory.

0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I cannot eliminate the possibility that this was an

0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:03.520
<v Speaker 2>accidental as a result of Thomas being in that hayfield

0:57:03.560 --> 0:57:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that night for whatever reason, and there is spontaneous combustion.

0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Everything Spillsbury is lining up is entirely consistent with that.

0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:12.799
<v Speaker 1>Okay, say that again.

0:57:13.000 --> 0:57:14.960
<v Speaker 2>It is entirely consistent with that.

0:57:15.719 --> 0:57:19.320
<v Speaker 1>So he is still batting one thousand. My boyfriend, a

0:57:19.360 --> 0:57:23.040
<v Speaker 1>pathologist who died probably eighty years ago or something.

0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna have to knock Spillsbury off of this this

0:57:25.920 --> 0:57:27.160
<v Speaker 2>pedestal you've put him on.

0:57:27.400 --> 0:57:29.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean really, you know, but.

0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:32.440
<v Speaker 2>This is so important for you. You have this experience

0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:35.880
<v Speaker 2>pathologist being able to outline this, you know, and now

0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:40.800
<v Speaker 2>it's marrying up what his findings are with the investigation.

0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:44.000
<v Speaker 2>And that's where right now there appears to be a

0:57:44.080 --> 0:57:47.000
<v Speaker 2>little bit of a conflict that needs to be resolved

0:57:47.080 --> 0:57:49.120
<v Speaker 2>in order to really know what happened to Thomas.

0:57:49.960 --> 0:57:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is not a formally closed case. I have

0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 1>not closed this case. So I don't know if anybody's

0:57:55.800 --> 0:57:59.000
<v Speaker 1>working it, but you know, this is not closed. I

0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:00.760
<v Speaker 1>think we might be the last one one's working. But

0:58:01.120 --> 0:58:04.160
<v Speaker 1>it's definitely interesting. Sometimes we do these where they murdered.

0:58:04.400 --> 0:58:07.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, remember the actress that we just talked about

0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:10.480
<v Speaker 1>a couple of months ago. What happened? Did she die

0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:13.120
<v Speaker 1>in the car in the garage? You know? And sometimes

0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:17.400
<v Speaker 1>murder is not the thing that we conclude. But I

0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:19.280
<v Speaker 1>think it's all interesting because like how much we talked

0:58:19.320 --> 0:58:22.720
<v Speaker 1>about the processes that happen in the body, and you know,

0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:25.120
<v Speaker 1>the different ways that pathologists have to look at these

0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:29.160
<v Speaker 1>cases to try to systematically eliminate what everybody thinks is happening,

0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:30.920
<v Speaker 1>which is oftentimes not true.

0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Sure, but you know, working in law enforcement, whether you're

0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:40.680
<v Speaker 2>a homicide investigator, you're a CSI pathologist, death investigator, we

0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:44.480
<v Speaker 2>go out on cases which are we're not sure there's

0:58:44.520 --> 0:58:47.800
<v Speaker 2>a homicide or not. The proper mindset is always to

0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:50.480
<v Speaker 2>treat it like a homicide because that's when all the

0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:55.000
<v Speaker 2>resources are flowing in. You enact all the resources to

0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:58.360
<v Speaker 2>get everything documented, everything collected, everything that you know, all

0:58:58.360 --> 0:59:00.960
<v Speaker 2>the experts that would weigh in a homicide case, and

0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:05.960
<v Speaker 2>then you go, oh, the haystack just spontaneously combusted. You know,

0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:08.640
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of reminds me of the couple who died

0:59:08.800 --> 0:59:11.240
<v Speaker 2>near the lake and turns out the lake is putting

0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:15.280
<v Speaker 2>off noxious gases. Not a homicide, it's an accidental death.

0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:18.200
<v Speaker 2>That always needs to be the approach in these cases.

0:59:18.280 --> 0:59:22.160
<v Speaker 2>And so that's why I get called out. And there's suicides,

0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:25.919
<v Speaker 2>but there's something somebody goes, this doesn't look right, and

0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:28.640
<v Speaker 2>sometimes they're right and it's actually a homicide and it's

0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.480
<v Speaker 2>been staged to look like a suicide, or it's an

0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:35.720
<v Speaker 2>actual suicide and it's just an unusual one. Sometimes I've

0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:39.760
<v Speaker 2>had to go out to accidental deaths, you know, typically overdoses,

0:59:40.160 --> 0:59:43.439
<v Speaker 2>but there's just enough to where somebody's going, this could

0:59:43.480 --> 0:59:47.400
<v Speaker 2>be a homicide. So in this particular case, I think

0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:53.080
<v Speaker 2>with Thomas, from my perspective, is everything Spillsberry is outlining

0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:57.520
<v Speaker 2>is yes, this suggests that this was accidental. I just

0:59:57.560 --> 0:59:59.800
<v Speaker 2>think there's too much of a mystery of why Thomas

0:59:59.880 --> 1:00:02.400
<v Speaker 2>is out in this hayfield and we have the ear

1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:05.760
<v Speaker 2>witness observing a car going in and rapidly going out.

1:00:06.040 --> 1:00:09.120
<v Speaker 2>What's up with that? You know, if that's actually even accurate.

1:00:09.160 --> 1:00:11.880
<v Speaker 2>And so this is where I think the corner's in

1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:15.400
<v Speaker 2>quest that the proper finding is this is undetermined and

1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:18.560
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement needs to proceed as if it's a homicide

1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:21.360
<v Speaker 2>up until they're able to answer those questions.

1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:24.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, this case is one of the ones that's I mean,

1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:28.560
<v Speaker 1>that has taught me the most, and of course it's

1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:32.640
<v Speaker 1>you and Spillsbury, So we will definitely return to a Spillsbury.

1:00:34.000 --> 1:00:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Where are you, Paul, don't get jealous, God, but I'm

1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.040
<v Speaker 1>determined to bring you an actual murder next week, and

1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:44.360
<v Speaker 1>not a guy in a haystack where we're trying to

1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:46.520
<v Speaker 1>figure out exactly what happened. But I love good mystery,

1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:47.160
<v Speaker 1>So you never know.

1:00:47.480 --> 1:00:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Right well, you know, and I think you know part

1:00:49.560 --> 1:00:51.680
<v Speaker 2>of it. You know, when you do work these types

1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:54.080
<v Speaker 2>of cases, you learn from them. So when you do

1:00:54.160 --> 1:00:58.480
<v Speaker 2>have the homicide that has some similar parallels, there's experience

1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:02.240
<v Speaker 2>that you can draw upon. And the reality is is

1:01:02.280 --> 1:01:05.840
<v Speaker 2>that you can read all the CSI textbooks, pathology textbooks,

1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:10.280
<v Speaker 2>everything else, you can never ever replace the experience of

1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:14.520
<v Speaker 2>real life cases. So this is a real life case

1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:19.920
<v Speaker 2>that these Spillsbury, these officers, these investigators, they're all learning

1:01:20.000 --> 1:01:22.440
<v Speaker 2>for the next case that comes along, where now they

1:01:22.520 --> 1:01:25.320
<v Speaker 2>can they know how to kind of proceed once they

1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.200
<v Speaker 2>see something that they've seen from Thomas's case.

1:01:28.680 --> 1:01:31.240
<v Speaker 1>I can almost guarantee you that when we come back

1:01:31.240 --> 1:01:33.840
<v Speaker 1>from our one week katus that we will have a

1:01:33.920 --> 1:01:36.360
<v Speaker 1>murder and it won't be a mystery case. But we'll

1:01:36.400 --> 1:01:40.120
<v Speaker 1>see I can't guarantee anything, you.

1:01:40.120 --> 1:01:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Mean, I've got to wait what two weeks before I

1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:43.760
<v Speaker 2>hear this next case.

1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:46.240
<v Speaker 1>I know, I'm sorry about that, buddy.

1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:48.320
<v Speaker 2>All right, well, I look forward to it.

1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:49.720
<v Speaker 1>Then, thank you, We'll see you.

1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Then sounds good.

1:01:55.400 --> 1:01:58.080
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right production for.

1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:01.120
<v Speaker 2>Our sources and show notes go to exactly writemedia dot

1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:03.320
<v Speaker 2>com slash Buried Bones sources.

1:02:03.520 --> 1:02:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1:02:06.160 --> 1:02:10.400
<v Speaker 2>Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1:02:10.680 --> 1:02:12.920
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<v Speaker 1>You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Buried Bones pod.

1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:34.240
<v Speaker 2>criminal mind, is available now.

1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:38.520
<v Speaker 1>And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1:02:38.560 --> 1:02:40.640
<v Speaker 1>cold cases, is also available now.

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