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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are

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Speaker 1: you doing. I'm doing great. I have an incredibly important

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Speaker 1: listener question. Oh I've actually got I've gotten this multiple

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Speaker 1: times and I have always sort of forgotten to ask you.

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Speaker 1: But this is the question. Okay, you're ready, what is

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Speaker 1: your skincare routine? And actually this person asked both both

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Speaker 1: of us start, what's your skincare? Because they think we

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Speaker 1: have great skin. Paul, I really came close to saying filters, that's.

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Speaker 2: What's Yeah, No, that's that's just it, you know, I

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Speaker 2: you know, it's shocking to me that people think I

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Speaker 2: have great skin, you know, because I've always, you know,

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Speaker 2: since my teen years, I struggled with acne, and I

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Speaker 2: never protected my skin. You know. I never wore sunscreen.

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Speaker 2: I lifeguarded high school through college. When I would be

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Speaker 2: working in the yard in the hot California summers, no

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Speaker 2: sunscreen on, never wore a hat, and so so a

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Speaker 2: lot of sun damage. But since I've gotten into sort

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Speaker 2: of the media side now, I've been having to pay attention.

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Speaker 2: And of course sunscreen is number one. Sunscreen in the morning,

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Speaker 2: it's a moisturizer that has sunscreen in it, but generally

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Speaker 2: it's sort of the the mantra of acids in the

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Speaker 2: morning and retinoids in the evening. I found with my

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Speaker 2: with my skin, what I need to do is generally

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Speaker 2: wash with salicylic acid containing cleanser. Can be kind of harsh,

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Speaker 2: but I have very very oily skin. Then if I'll

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Speaker 2: use benzoil peroxide on my trouble spots and then put

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Speaker 2: on the moisturizer with the sunscreen in it, and that's

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Speaker 2: literally my morning routine.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's more than most men. I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure that.

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Speaker 2: Well you know, it's one of those things I wish

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Speaker 2: I had taken care of my skin when I was younger,

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Speaker 2: you know, And so I'm trying to hopefully get a

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Speaker 2: more youth full appearance and try to prevent some of

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Speaker 2: the you know, the aging from the sun damage that

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Speaker 2: happens in the wrinkles. And then you know, midday, like

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Speaker 2: after I work out, I'll probably splash some water on

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Speaker 2: my face and put some more moisturizer with sunscreen on,

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Speaker 2: and then in the evening, I use a gentle cleanser.

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Speaker 2: It's usually right now, it's this Userine cleanser with the

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Speaker 2: huronic acid in it. And then I have a retinoid.

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Speaker 2: I personally, right now I'm using taseratine. It's one of

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Speaker 2: the strongest retinoids. And then I put a night cream,

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Speaker 2: this Userine PM face cream on top of that, and

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Speaker 2: generally that's, you know, that's what my normal routine is.

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Speaker 2: And if I end up breaking out for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: and it happens, and I have to address that and

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Speaker 2: sometimes make changes. But I know, for a guy, I'm

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Speaker 2: doing a lot more because most guys they don't they

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Speaker 2: don't give a damn about that. They splash water in

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Speaker 2: their face and they're good to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but you have a very youthful look. And

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Speaker 1: I know you have to wear makeup when we film,

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Speaker 1: right anytime you're on camera, don't you, because you get

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Speaker 1: a little shiny sometimes, you know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I have put on, you know, And this this

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Speaker 2: comes back from, you know, having worked in the TV

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Speaker 2: world and having the hair and makeup artists having to

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Speaker 2: you know, have to counter all the oil that I do.

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Speaker 2: So I do have like a block powder. I don't

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Speaker 2: have any on right now, you know. So we'll see

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Speaker 2: how how shiny I get as we sit and record today.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'll rate you. We'll go halfway through. You never

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Speaker 1: get too shiny, It's okay. I mean I have a

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Speaker 1: much simpler skin routine now. I feel a little badly

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Speaker 1: about mine. Mine is just a gentle cleanser at night.

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Speaker 1: I don't even remember what the brand is. I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: It's something that a dermatologist told me to do a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, and then I just did it. And

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Speaker 1: then I'll use like a alta which you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a fifty sport in the morning, and then

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Speaker 1: I'll use you know, a nighttime cream. I do have

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Speaker 1: some retinol that I put under my eyes, but I

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Speaker 1: do a hydrator first. The hydrating thing is a real

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Speaker 1: big thing for me because you know, my glasses when

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Speaker 1: I if anybody's ever met me, I'm usually wearing glasses.

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Speaker 1: I don't wear contacts very much. You know, my glasses

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Speaker 1: kind of cover up any darkness I might have under

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Speaker 1: my eyes. And so I know this sounds like a

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Speaker 1: skincare crocial to you guys, but it is a thing,

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Speaker 1: especially when you're on camera, you really have to kind

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Speaker 1: of think about that. And then of course, like just

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Speaker 1: the longevity of your skin, their skin cancer and my

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Speaker 1: family so all of that I have to pass on

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Speaker 1: to the kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I think you have to come

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Speaker 2: up with your own regimen. You know, That's what I

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Speaker 2: have found. I've I've experimented with different cleansers. There's one

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Speaker 2: that has you know, the seramides in it and you know,

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Speaker 2: very hydrating, and that just wrecked my face. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm just so oily to begin with, and it just

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Speaker 2: wasn't cleansing my face enough. That's why I ended up

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Speaker 2: going to the salasilic acid. And so it's a matter

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Speaker 2: of experimenting and seeing you know how your skin and

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Speaker 2: responds here in Colorado. You know, my house is at

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Speaker 2: sixty five hundred feet. I live on the side of

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Speaker 2: a mountain, but it's high desert. It is very very

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Speaker 2: dry here. So using the strong retinoid, you know, it

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Speaker 2: will really peel badly. So that's where I had to

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Speaker 2: kind of figure out, how can I find a moisturizer

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Speaker 2: to prevent, you know, showing up at the gym and

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Speaker 2: I've got skin just flaking off of me over the place.

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Speaker 2: It looks pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: That's not good. No, well, I would say, you know,

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Speaker 1: my kids have an unbelievable amount of skincare, not even

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Speaker 1: really makeup, but the industry is pretty amazing. For teens.

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Speaker 1: They each have their own little refrigerator many fridge that

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Speaker 1: keeps all of the stuff cool. Well, yeah, it's tiny.

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Speaker 1: It's not even a traditional mini fridge. I literally use

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Speaker 1: lava soap and Irish spring when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: as I was in the country, and they're using I

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Speaker 1: mean the stuff that they their allowance almost exclusively goes

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Speaker 1: to skincare stuff. So boy, things have changed, well.

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Speaker 2: You know, and a lot of it. As a guy

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Speaker 2: growing up, there wasn't a source of knowledge of how

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Speaker 2: to take care of your skin, you know. So for me,

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Speaker 2: once I became a teenage boy, it was the oxypads

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Speaker 2: and you know, slathering benz oil peroxide creams all over

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Speaker 2: the face and then going into school or going into

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Speaker 2: work and then the shirt would all bleach out. It

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Speaker 2: was just a horrible thing, and I didn't know any better.

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Speaker 2: And now for me, I've done the research. But even

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Speaker 2: my daughter, my youngest daughter, she is so on top of,

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Speaker 2: you know, her skincare routine and what products do you

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Speaker 2: use when you know? And so it's just the the

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Speaker 2: Internet has just made so much information, made it so

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Speaker 2: much more available, so you can learn and as opposed

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Speaker 2: to having to either go into an office somewhere with

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Speaker 2: a dermatologist, which you still need to do, but in

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Speaker 2: terms of having an expert like that tell you what

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Speaker 2: your regimen should be.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I'm mean I still have a lot of flexibility.

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Speaker 1: We were supposed to get my father in law some

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Speaker 1: deodorant or anti purs but I can't remember which, and

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Speaker 1: so we got him old spice, some kind of old

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Speaker 1: spice stuff and he rejected it. He said, no, So

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Speaker 1: I wear it. It's fine.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so, so you smell like a lumberjack? Is

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Speaker 2: that what you're telling me?

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Speaker 1: I don't smell badly, and for me, that's the only

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Speaker 1: thing that counts.

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Speaker 2: Really.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, we've gone down a weird road. But this is

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Speaker 1: uh but yeah, this is a question. Actually we've gotten

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Speaker 1: quite a bit. So we're both very grateful that at

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Speaker 1: least some of you think that we have nice skin. Thankfully.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's always you know, for me, having the struggles

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Speaker 2: that I've had, for people to actually make that type

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Speaker 2: of comment, it's sort of a confidence booster, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, okay, good.

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Speaker 1: You know, yes, well I could have told you that

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Speaker 1: three years ago. I would have told you that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well now I know, now I know. Well, let's get

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Speaker 1: into a story that, unlike our skincare routines, is quite

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Speaker 1: a mystery. That was not a good transition, but it's

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Speaker 1: a mystery. This is a miss I love the time

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Speaker 1: period where in nineteen thirties England. Of course love England,

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Speaker 1: and so this will be a case of actually, I'm

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Speaker 1: not even going to finish that sentence. Let's just get

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Speaker 1: into the case and let's set the scene. This is

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Speaker 1: where we are where in Stadhampton. I'm sure I said

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Speaker 1: that wrong. England. It's a small rural village about nine

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Speaker 1: miles away from Oxford. Most people would recognize Oxford from

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Speaker 1: Oxford University. It's May fifteenth, nineteen thirty six, so this

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Speaker 1: is two forty five in the morning, and several farmers

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Speaker 1: in this rural area see smoke coming from a nearby hayfield.

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Speaker 1: I have written about bad things happening in hayfields. We

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Speaker 1: have had at least a couple of stories of fires

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Speaker 1: happening now I can't remember one. It's like a whole

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Speaker 1: family is burned and buried in a hay field and

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Speaker 1: the only one child survives, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff happening, I guess because it's so isolated, and it's

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the nights, very early in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Farmers and farm hands report they're there at you know,

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Speaker 1: about three in the morning, and they're trying to put

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Speaker 1: out this blaze. And the fire has spread to several

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Speaker 1: different haystacks in the field, and there's a group of

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Speaker 1: cows that wanders over to one of the smoldering stacks

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Speaker 1: and starts nosing it. Now, this next part is a

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Speaker 1: I shit you not part. The farmers try to show

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Speaker 1: them away, but they're not moving and they keep nosing

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Speaker 1: the Hey, I don't think they want to eat it.

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Speaker 1: The farmers go over and there is a charred body

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Speaker 1: in the haystack. I would not have predicted cows locating

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Speaker 1: a body. We've never had that happen before. But this

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Speaker 1: is a This is a situation where the cows won't

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Speaker 1: move and I don't know what they're doing. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if they're trying to tell them that there's a

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Speaker 1: body there, but something's unusual and the cows are picking

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Speaker 1: up on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've never heard of that kind of

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Speaker 2: behavior by cattle. You know, I would assume the cattle,

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Speaker 2: the cows would stay far away from any of these fires.

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Speaker 2: That just seem like the animal instinct for survival. With

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Speaker 2: a charred body, of course, there's going to be definitely

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Speaker 2: a very strong odor, you know. Is that what's drawing

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Speaker 2: the cows, you know? Or is there a level of

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Speaker 2: intelligence where the cows are going We need to larn

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Speaker 2: these humans that there's another human that's, you know, being

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Speaker 2: burned up underneath this haystack.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: in a minute, because I'm going to want you to

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Speaker 1: look at a photo. So while i'm talking, maybe go

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Speaker 1: ahead and download your two photo documents. Is I think

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Speaker 1: the rest of this field has been burned pretty significantly,

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Speaker 1: so the cows might be approaching maybe the only hay

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Speaker 1: that's around. But still there are people yelling, there's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of chaos. There's that bad smell. I can't explain it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying get rid of your bloodhounds, law enforcement

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Speaker 1: people across the country, but I'm saying cows in this case,

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Speaker 1: we're helpful. Okay, So before you open it, don't open

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Speaker 1: it just yet. Let me just tell you what is found.

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Speaker 1: It's determined that the body in the haystack has been

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Speaker 1: confirmed to be this guy, Thomas Pattison Moss. He had

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Speaker 1: a distinctive broken tooth, and I think there were a

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Speaker 1: couple of other things, particularly, I know particularly there's a

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Speaker 1: belt that is leather, it's still intact and it has

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Speaker 1: his name on it, Thomas Pattison Moss. But the tooth,

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Speaker 1: for them, I guess was the thing that confirmed it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, what does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know back, you know, during this timeframe, and

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Speaker 2: we're talking nineteen thirty six out there in England. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're going to rely on these types of physical characteristics.

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Speaker 2: I think the belt with his name on it is significant.

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Speaker 2: Out of course, is this a true identification by today's standards,

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Speaker 2: it is not. Could somebody stage a different body to

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Speaker 2: you know, especially after it's been burned to have you know,

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Speaker 2: this type of broken tooth and then put a belt

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Speaker 2: from Thomas around that body and then now you've got

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Speaker 2: authorities going, well, it's got to be Thomas, you know,

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Speaker 2: and the reality it's not. It'd be very very easy

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Speaker 2: to fool people in authorities back during this timeframe with

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Speaker 2: that type of staging.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's all I have to go on right now.

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Speaker 1: So they are assuming that Thomas Pattison Moss is their victim.

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Speaker 1: There are two photos that you can look at, and

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Speaker 1: really it's the two main photos in this case. There's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of photographic evidence here. One is what

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Speaker 1: the haystack field would have likely looked at with the big, huge,

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Speaker 1: roundish haystacks, and the other one, which is the first

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Speaker 1: photo you can look at, is what this field look

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Speaker 1: like after the fire, after they discovered the body. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think it spoils anything for you to look

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Speaker 1: at both of them now if you want.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I'm looking at the first one and it's

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Speaker 2: literally it looks just like mounds of dry hay that's

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Speaker 2: still smoldering. And you see three gentlemen, I must say,

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Speaker 2: very well dressed gentleman. You know, I'm assuming these are

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Speaker 2: you know, law enforcement or maybe members from you know,

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Speaker 2: city government or something that are out there. Yeah. One

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Speaker 2: one gentleman is pointing down to the ground. I'm not

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Speaker 2: seeing anything that stands out where he's pointing, so I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering if that's where he's saying where Thomas's body was

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Speaker 2: was located at.

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Speaker 1: I think I think that's what they're saying. Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: And then the second wow, okay, So this this photo

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Speaker 2: is a modern day photo showing these haystacks or hay ricks.

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Speaker 2: And I've never I've never heard the term hay ricks,

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Speaker 2: but it's showing a way where you have the these hey,

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Speaker 2: that's been bailed into your typical you know blocks, you know,

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Speaker 2: rectangular blocks that have been stacked up, and then there

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Speaker 2: is loose hay that has been draped over the top,

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Speaker 2: giving it a look of almost like a sort of

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Speaker 2: like a house you know that has a hay roof.

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Speaker 2: And I'm assuming they do that because I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 2: like you know, during the rain, they're probably wanting to

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Speaker 2: keep the bailed hay dry, and so this hay that

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Speaker 2: is drooped over the top is a way to get

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Speaker 2: the water from rain and stuff to run off and

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Speaker 2: not soak the hay that they're probably going to try

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Speaker 2: to sell, you know. So of course, if that's how

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Speaker 2: this looked before the fire, going back to the original photograph,

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Speaker 2: there's a significant amount of hay that has been burned, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, because none of that type of structure is remaining.

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Speaker 2: You just see these smoldering mounds. You know. So as

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Speaker 2: I evaluate this scene, I'm looking at this from the

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Speaker 2: perspective of, Okay, how much heat was Thomas's body subjected to?

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Speaker 2: You know, what is the origin of the fire, you know,

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Speaker 2: and of course how long had Thomas been out there?

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Speaker 2: But it's interesting that I could see with this dry hay,

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of this fire is just going

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Speaker 2: straight up these haystacks and does it work its way

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Speaker 2: down you know, so maybe it's been burning for a

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Speaker 2: long time before it, you know, the fire actually gets

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Speaker 2: down to Thomas's body, you know, and that's just something

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Speaker 2: where talking to people who have observed these types of

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Speaker 2: haystacks burn, how do they burn? You know? And then

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Speaker 2: I would take that to assess the sort of the

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Speaker 2: thermal injuries to Thomas and to start to get a

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Speaker 2: sense as to what is going on here, you know,

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Speaker 2: is did he just happened to get trapped in a

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Speaker 2: fire and he you know, succumbed to the smoke in

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Speaker 2: elation and now his body's being burned. Does he have

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Speaker 2: injuries to suggest that he was killed? And then of

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Speaker 2: course his body's being burned as the offender lit these haystacks,

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Speaker 2: you know, to cover up the crime.

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Speaker 1: This is why the case I think is so interesting

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Speaker 1: and it is a mystery, especially when we find out

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about Thomas. So let me tell

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Speaker 1: you about him. He is twenty one years old. He's

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Speaker 1: an undergraduate in law at Oxford University's Balliol College. This

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Speaker 1: is not a big part of the story, but Oxford

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Speaker 1: is split up into a bunch of different colleges and

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Speaker 1: you know, they pool resources like libraries and labs, and

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Speaker 1: so Thomas is at one of the best schools in

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Speaker 1: the world. He is originally from Toronto, so he's Canadian

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Speaker 1: and as part of a wealthy, very prominent family. His

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Speaker 1: father is a well known barrister. We just talked about barristers.

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Speaker 1: They're the attorneys who you know, argue before the courts.

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Speaker 1: So this is a middle class, upper middle class guy

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Speaker 1: who ends up in these haystacks, burned to death. You

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Speaker 1: know when we talk about what happens, he doesn't have

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Speaker 1: ties to where we are. Let me give you the

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Speaker 1: best news I'm going to be able to give you today.

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Speaker 1: I think with anything that we talk about, Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna probably geek out a lot, which is great because

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Speaker 1: we are getting to get some information from my pathology crush.

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Speaker 1: So it's England. It's the nineteen thirties. It is not you, Paul.

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Speaker 1: It is the nineteen thirties. That's what you're thinking about

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Speaker 1: it now. I'm gonna see if you could figure this out.

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Speaker 1: It's England, it's the nineteen thirties. I love this this

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Speaker 1: pathologist too, is it do you think? Oh?

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Speaker 2: You know, the name is on the tip of my tongue.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Sp spill Spillsbury.

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Speaker 2: Bernard spills Oh yeah, Bernard Spillsbury.

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Speaker 1: He's our guy. I know you've got your book back there, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Think I've got a book about him.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure you've ever disagreed with Spillsbury. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember you ever saying I don't know, he might

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Speaker 1: be reaching. I feel like you're always sort of like

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Speaker 1: on the same page with this guy from the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I can't remember specific issues in

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Speaker 2: which Billsbury has weighed in, but you know this from

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Speaker 2: what I remember about him and the sense of what

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Speaker 2: you have presented to me over the various cases. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's an experienced pathologist. He is a true expert. He's

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Speaker 2: seen it all, and that's where he's able to come

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Speaker 2: in and provide that level of expertise and draw proper conclusions.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, in many parts of you know, the United States,

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Speaker 2: and I'm assuming in some parts of England, you don't

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Speaker 2: have pathologists that have that experience and expertise, and so

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Speaker 2: now they're weighing in on cases without that knowledge base,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes they're wrong about what they're concluding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and part of me, he wonders why was he

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Speaker 1: called in on this. He's certainly not the only pathologist

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirties England. It's not London. I know it

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Speaker 1: on the outset kind of seems like a violent case,

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Speaker 1: but they're not sure what happened. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it was the family's prominence that he was Canadian

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Speaker 1: and he's here in England, that he's at Oxford University.

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Speaker 1: But this seems like not a special request. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It just seems a little odd that he

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Speaker 1: would be the one out there. I'm glad he is,

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Speaker 1: because we have a lot of information.

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Speaker 2: You know. What's striking me right off the bat about

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Speaker 2: Thomas Moss being found at this location that he has

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Speaker 2: no ties to is that sounds like they're able to

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Speaker 2: identify him pretty quickly, you know. So there must have

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Speaker 2: been some sort of report, a missing report to indicate, hey,

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Speaker 2: we have this Canadian student from a prominent family that's missing,

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Speaker 2: and now you have this burned body at a location

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Speaker 2: where now authorities are going, well we need to look

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Speaker 2: at that, and oh, sure enough it's a son of

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Speaker 2: this prominent Canadian family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we do have some information about Thomas and

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Speaker 1: where he was and you know his whereabouts, and I

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Speaker 1: think people were concerned about him. So let me tell

380
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 1: you first, there's a kind of an interesting order of things.

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Speaker 1: So Spillsbury, my pathology crush, has decided to do a

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Speaker 1: postmortem right there where the body is in the field,

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Speaker 1: So there will be a lot more information once he's done,

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Speaker 1: you know, with this report. But he has to do

385
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Speaker 1: a pretty intensive examination back at his lab. Right now,

386
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Speaker 1: we're just kind of getting information as he's getting it.

387
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Speaker 1: So it's in the field where this is happening. He

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Speaker 1: uses a pop up table. Is that something that happens ever,

389
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Speaker 1: or why would you do that? Yeah, let's start disagreeing

390
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Speaker 1: with him right now.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, now, there are times when pathologists do

392
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Speaker 2: come out into the field, you know, and they want

393
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Speaker 2: to observe the deceased in the environment prior to the

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Speaker 2: death investigator collecting the body, and that can be very

395
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Speaker 2: valuable to get the pathologist's opinions, you know, early on

396
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Speaker 2: during the crime scene investigation. Outside of when I've seen anthropologists,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of study the skeletal remains out into

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Speaker 2: the field. Typically the body is collected and then taken

399
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Speaker 2: back to the coroner's office. Emmy's office or Morgue or

400
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: you know, back in the day funeral homes where the

401
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 2: pathologist in a controlled setting can now do the autopsy

402
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: and has all the tools available in order to do that. So,

403
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, Spillsbury must have seen something, you know, that

404
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 2: was maybe time sensitive. Where he's going, I need to

405
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,239
Speaker 2: take a look now to see what's going on. I

406
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 2: also wonder if there is no nearby facilities. And since

407
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 2: Spillsberry is traveling, he thought, you know what, I can

408
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: do this out in the field. You know, I don't

409
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 2: see that happening today, you know, but I can see

410
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Speaker 2: where it's it's feasible. I don't you know, there is

411
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Speaker 2: a possibility. There's no harm in doing it as long

412
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Speaker 2: as it's done properly. The proper samples are collected, you know,

413
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Speaker 2: all the specimen jars are available, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So Spillsbury, when he's done with this examination, there will

415
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Speaker 1: be a coroner's inquest, but it's paused because Spillsbury takes

416
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Speaker 1: more than a week with Thomas's body to figure out

417
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Speaker 1: what's going on. So you'll have questions, but I think

418
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Speaker 1: he's going to have answers for just about everything. So

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Speaker 1: he does his post mortem in the field using a

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Speaker 1: propped up door as a makeshift table. Okay, there you.

421
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Speaker 2: Go, ad Hoc. You know he's having to improvise.

422
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Speaker 1: He is, okay, this is what he says, and this

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Speaker 1: is pulmonary. He says that Thomas's skull and both of

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Speaker 1: his arms are broken, which I think the farmers could

425
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Speaker 1: tell when he was found, so he says. Billsbury says,

426
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Speaker 1: he thinks that the bones cracked from the fire and

427
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: had not been broken before Thomas had died, So how

428
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: would he know that.

429
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: Well, this again goes to case experience and having dealt

430
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 2: with previous burned bodies. Now you know the skull being

431
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: broken or fractured. That is a very very common thing

432
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: because as the heat from the fire is burning the

433
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: victim and burning around the victim's head, of course, the

434
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: brain matter inside the skull is being subjected to intense heat.

435
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 2: And this is where you can actually have the skull

436
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: somewhat burst from the thermal ad you know, this tissue

437
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: expanding and all the heat that's collecting within this closed system.

438
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: Skulls are very good at resisting pressure from the outside

439
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: in like somebody pressing on your head. The skulls are

440
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: not so good at resisting pressure from the inside out.

441
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: So if the tissue inside the brain under high heat

442
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: is now gaseous and the pressures building up, you often

443
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: see the skull separate at the suture lines or even fracture.

444
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: And so he must be seeing something like that. And

445
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 2: then the broken bones. That's likely telling me that the extremities,

446
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: at least the upper extremities for Thomas, have been subjected

447
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: to prolonged exposure to fire, and so now the soft

448
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: tissue has been burned away, the bones are in essence

449
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: turning brittle, and yeah, they lose their integrity, you know.

450
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: So of course initially I start thinking, well, is there

451
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: a chance that this was a bludgeoning and the broken

452
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: arms are a result of defensive you know, defensive posture

453
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 2: in terms of trying to ward off the bludgeting weapon.

454
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: But I have to rely on spillsbury assessment that this

455
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: is thermal injuries versus actual violence.

456
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: Well, he'll have a lot more information, but he's taken

457
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: the body. They are continuing to look at the scene.

458
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing that struck me about the

459
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: photo I sent to you is obviously they take this

460
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: photo of these well dressed men with one either holding

461
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: a pipe, a smoking pipe, or a pencil. I'm not

462
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: sure what he's held. He's definitely holding something.

463
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: It looks like a pipe. I mean you can see

464
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: it looks like where his hand is wrapped around it

465
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: is pretty wide, you know. So, yeah, you're out in

466
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: the middle with all this dry hay and you're smoking great.

467
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know my first book, which was Death

468
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: in the Air, which was set in London, I talk

469
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: about the Minister of Health who in I think in

470
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: the late fifties early sixties, has a big press conference

471
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: and he's declaring that there is a definitive connection between

472
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: lung cancer and smoking, and he is chain smoking a

473
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: cigarette's chained of smoking cigarettes to the entire press conference

474
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: where he's talking about these are going to kill you.

475
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: So there's more irony all over. Okay, So you know

476
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: what I was looking at with that photo is how

477
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: decimated that is. I wonder how long after two forty

478
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: five am that was. Because if the haystacks, the hay

479
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: ricks were as tall as we think they would be,

480
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: I mean in a field like that, they just look decimated.

481
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: I mean, this looks huge, a huge fire. So This

482
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: could have been three days later and it still looks

483
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: like it's moldering to me. So this was a big deal,

484
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: this fire.

485
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: There's a lot of fuel at this you know, in

486
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: this fire. Now, hey, it is going to burn quickly.

487
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: But those bailed hay blocks, you know, they're pretty compact,

488
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: so it's sort of like a log in many ways,

489
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: you know. And I have no experience in terms of

490
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: how fast something like that would burn, but if you

491
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: have them stacked on top of each other and for

492
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: them to be completely burned down to the ground, it's

493
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: probably a very intense fire. And it was going on

494
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: for a period of time, Yeah, a significant period of time.

495
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: And we don't know who this guy just happened to

496
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: see it at two forty five. We don't even know

497
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: when it started. Sure, okay, let me tell you what

498
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: else they found. So I told you that there's the

499
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: belt fragment that has Thomas's name on it, and there

500
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: were some other things that were not completely burned that

501
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: were found with his body, including a pair of cuff

502
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: links that were later identified as his and some money

503
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: which is three shillings and twopence. And remember this is

504
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: you know, nineteen thirty so this is about twenty bucks.

505
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: Today, okay, and these are coins, yes.

506
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: And you know, so you've got not incredible valuables. But

507
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: he's got a leather belt, he's got you know, some

508
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: cuff links that seem really nice, and he's got some

509
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: money on him and none of those things are taken.

510
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: Now.

511
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what else he had on him, but

512
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,239
Speaker 1: that's a thing. I mean, you know, we're looking if

513
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: if robbery is a motive for anything, that's one thing.

514
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, And this is part of the problem

515
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: with fires. Fires could be so devastating to the crime

516
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: scene that there's always missing information because fire has destroyed it.

517
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: So you know, is there a possibility that, you know,

518
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: something had been taken from Thomas. Yeah, you know, it's possible,

519
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: but it's notable that these particular items that do have

520
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: some value were left behind.

521
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: Also, his watch. We've had this happen before two So

522
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: the leather strap is burned away, but they find the

523
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: watch and it's the face is still readable. It stopped

524
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: at two ten am, So this is thirty five minutes

525
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: before the farmer saw the fire. Is that a pretty

526
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: good time stamp for something?

527
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: I think the only conclusion that can be drawn is

528
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: that's the time in which the watch being subjected to

529
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: the fire stopped working. Gives no information as to when

530
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: Thomas was put out there, nor when the fire was started.

531
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: So the farmer whose field Thomas was found in, who

532
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure is upset for many different reasons a body

533
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: being found in his field and all of it being destroyed.

534
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: He brings a reporter to the spot in the field

535
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: where the body was. It's a reporter, not a photographer.

536
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: We don't have a photo of this, And according to

537
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: the photographer and the farmer, it's the only spot in

538
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: the entire hayfield that hasn't been completely burned. And this

539
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: becomes important to Spillsbury. There's still hay on the spot

540
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: where Thomas's body has been found, while all the other

541
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: hay in the field has been reduced to ash okay.

542
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: So the farmer thinks that this particular haystack has been wet,

543
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: and he says that if Thomas had decided to go

544
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: to sleep on a haystack, there would have been no

545
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: reason for him to pick a wet one when all

546
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: the other ones which completely burned down, were you know, dry.

547
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: So for a while the investigators until we hear back

548
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: from Spillsbury. Think, what if this guy, which happens, wanders

549
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: down the road, you know, early the night before and

550
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: decides to take a nap in between you know, some haystacks.

551
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: He's covered and if it's a nice night and it's

552
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: not raining, why not.

553
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is something that has to be considered

554
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: at this point. Is is this a accidental death. I'm

555
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 2: not sure what Thomas would have done to cause the

556
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: fire himself, but he chose a location that I have

557
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: to rely upon the farmer's expertise, going, Hey, the reason

558
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: this hey didn't burn is because it was wetter than

559
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: the other. You know, but Tom was Thomas smoking and

560
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: he falls asleep. You know, right now, we don't have

561
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: any indication that Thomas has is inebriated. He's a toxic

562
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: you know, he's under the influence of alcohol, and you know,

563
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: he nods off and then he lights the dryer hay

564
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: stacks around him just you know, the cigarette just happens

565
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: to catch something on fire and it goes Yeah. I

566
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: was also when you were describing it, I was wondering,

567
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: you know, is this just where you have Thomas's body

568
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: laying on top of some hay. And let's say the

569
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: offender lights Thomas on fire, and the fire spreads to

570
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: all these other dry haystacks, you know, but Thomas's body,

571
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: though it's being burned, in essence, is protecting the hay

572
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: underneath where he's laying. So by the time they actually

573
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: discover Thomas, the fire hasn't gotten into this protected area.

574
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting because the farmer and

575
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: the reporter are not saying the hay is wet right now.

576
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: They're just trying to figure out why there would be

577
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: this hey, you know, with the cows coming over, why

578
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: this hay would be not burned and everything else around

579
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: it would be. And it's also a little bit confusing

580
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: about how big these haystacks are because you know, they're

581
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: sort of an indication that the investigators are wondering, right

582
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: if he would have fallen asleep because he's protected on

583
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: both sides from the wind between two haystacks. But the

584
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: farmer says, on a haystack, so it could have been

585
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, ten bails and that was it. We don't

586
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: know yet, Okay, corners in quest starts and this is

587
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: the day after Thomas's body is discovered, his identity is established.

588
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: You know, what happens with the belt? They find this belt,

589
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: the cuff links his clothing. They talked to his family

590
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: and so they're concluding and the tooth, they're concluding that

591
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: this is Thomas. Here's something weird. It comes out that

592
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: there is a box of matches that was still in

593
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: Thomas's pocket, and the box and the matches were burned,

594
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: but they were still recognizable. It's agreed by the investigators

595
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: at least that if Thomas had set the hay on

596
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: fire himself, he would have had to do so with

597
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: a different box of matches, since the group does not

598
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: believe that he could have gotten this box back in

599
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: his pocket. Like the kind of explosion of lighting this

600
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: hay would have, you know, prevented him from putting the

601
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: box back in his pocket. I'm not sure what that

602
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: would be the case.

603
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical about that conclusion. I'm imagining Thomas with this

604
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: box of matches, he lights a match, you know, puts

605
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: the box back in the pocket, flicks the match away

606
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 2: on that match goes and falls on some dry hay,

607
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: and then the fire would spread reasoningly rapidly but I

608
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: don't see it being like this explosive, you know, where

609
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: Thomas is immediately incapacitated as soon as that fire starts.

610
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: So you know, this is where you know Thomas at

611
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: least does have the ability to start the fire himself.

612
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: Okay. Authorities are going back and forth almost on a

613
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: daily basis on you know, is this murder and a

614
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: cover up or is this Thomas took his own life

615
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: or something accidentally happened. We don't know. Accidental death is

616
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: kind of what they're leaning towards, but they're not sure.

617
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: They talked to Thomas's friends at the Oxford Law School

618
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: and they say they don't think that Thomas would have

619
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: taken his own life, which this seems like an odd

620
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: way to do it, but it has to be on

621
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: the table. He was a week away from graduating. They're

622
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: confused about why he would have walked from Oxford to

623
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: this tiny rural area when there's nine miles in between

624
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: them and this is a desolate country road late at night.

625
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: They don't know how he got there. Let me tell

626
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: you the timeline. So ten point fifty on Thursday, than

627
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: the night before, he's seen about nine miles away in

628
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: Oxford's boardwalk and he seems to be walking back to

629
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: his hostel or his student housing is what they would

630
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: have called it. At one ten in the morning, a

631
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: postal worker passes by the hayfield. Nothing, nothing's wrong, but

632
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: you know, he wouldn't have seen Thomas, most likely anyway

633
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: from the road. Two ten, an hour later, Thomas's watch

634
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: stops to forty five the farmhand's seen the fire, and

635
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: then three thirty they finally find his body after forty

636
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: five minutes. So one thing I think most people agree

637
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: on is nobody sees this guy walking nine miles in

638
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: the dark by himself to get to a haystack, only

639
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: to fall asleep on some hay in between it and

640
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: then everything goes up in flames. So it's the transportation

641
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: that I think bugs everybody the most. What how did

642
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: he get there?

643
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're getting into sort of the core

644
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: of the initial investigative thrust. You have Thomas from a wealthy,

645
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: prominent family who has no ties to location where his

646
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: body is found. You know, I was wondering, you know,

647
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: was he you know, like a farm hand, you know,

648
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: sort of moonlighting, you know, to get some money or

649
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: something like that. But sounds like he has no connection

650
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 2: to this particular location. So you have a timeline where

651
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: he is now seen at ten fifty pm walking towards

652
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: his residence on the Oxford campus. Yes, okay, So now

653
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: this is where the focus has to start in terms

654
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: of okay, you have one witness. What does his residence suggest,

655
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, does it look like he made it back

656
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: to the residence. Is there anything that looks amiss inside

657
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: the residence? Was he abducted out of the residence? What

658
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 2: other aspects of Thomas's victimology would suggest that maybe there's

659
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: something else going on in his life that could cause

660
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: him to become a victim of homicide. And now you

661
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: do have the possibility of a body disposal out there

662
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: in the hayfield, with the hayfields being set on fire,

663
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: and this might give some insight if that's what happened.

664
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 2: The fact that the offender chose the hayfield and lit

665
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: the hayfield on fire, they purposely took Thomas's body out there,

666
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: that might suggest that the offender has some familiarity with

667
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: that particular location and being able to possibly cover up

668
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: a crime using the fire and the hay.

669
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some details about Thomas. But

670
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: first let me tell you the speculation which I hadn't

671
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: thought of. So there is a lot of speculation that

672
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: maybe Thomas was hit by a car, accidentally killed, and

673
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: then the motorist dumped his body in this hay field

674
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: and set it on fire. Then that still brings Thomas

675
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: back to walking to someplace he doesn't have a connection

676
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: to for no good reason. I don't know if I

677
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: buy into that, but they're they're just reaching for anything

678
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: at this point.

679
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: Well sure, you know, and this is where what does

680
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: the autopsy show. You know, we have some preliminary information

681
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: from Spillsbury cutting into Thomas's body on the door out

682
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: there at the hayfield, you know, but I imagine that

683
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: there is more extensive autopsy done. You know, in pedestrian

684
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: injuries for motor vehicles, you know, they can be quite extensive.

685
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: And that would probably stand out. If if Thomas is

686
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: walking and you have a motor vehicle striking him, it's

687
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: possible you have massive lower leg fractures if he was

688
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: run over. And nineteen thirty six England, I mean you

689
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: have cars. I mean these are legitimate vehicles.

690
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, heavy cars.

691
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: They're heavy, Yeah, you know, they're made out of steel,

692
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: and I would expect under that scenario that there would

693
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: be some indication of that level of violence from a

694
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: motor vehicle that Spillsbury would be able to see even

695
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: with the thermal damage to Thomas's body.

696
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about Thomas, because Billsbury's almost done.

697
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: He's getting there. But he's almost done with this examination.

698
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's taken more than a week. I know,

699
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: but he knows what he's doing. I think we'll see

700
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: if he's like, you know, batting one thousand.

701
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: Well, I could tell you the investigators are standing there going,

702
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: come on, doc. I know they're like tapping their feet, going,

703
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: we need to get rolling on this.

704
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: Their speculation all over the place, especially if there's a

705
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: murderer running around. So in the meantime, the police start

706
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: grabbing all of his friends from Oxford to try to

707
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: figure out the timeline and what he was like in general.

708
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: There is a classmate in Oxford who testified to the

709
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: police for an hour, and you know, I'll go through

710
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: what that person says. First, there's an ear witness. There

711
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: was a woman in a village and she said that

712
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: near the Hayfield she was in earshot and she could

713
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: hear a scream. The night that Thomas died. She said

714
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: she saw a car drive quickly through the village and

715
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: then toward the hayfield and then away from the hayfield.

716
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: But this is something that you know, is reported briefly.

717
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: It's not something in the police notes that we saw,

718
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 1: and it was in the newspaper and that was it,

719
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: and it doesn't actually come up in the actual inquest.

720
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: So I don't know if this woman was discredited or what.

721
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: But this is the this is the closest thing that

722
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: I've seen to something that really was sort of like WHOA, Okay,

723
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

724
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: And she doesn't give any details about the scream, like

725
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: was there a word being screamed or was it Did

726
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: it sound like a male versus female voice?

727
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: No, it just the scream. To me, I think was

728
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: sort of in pain. But no, she couldn't say anything

729
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: about that. It was a little bit more because this

730
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: is such a tiny village. I think it was very

731
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: noticeable that a car was coming out in and coming

732
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: out so quickly, and that's really what she noticed also,

733
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: So take that for what it's worth. Here's another weird

734
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: thing I don't actually think this is going to make

735
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: a difference, but I find it slightly amusing. It's reported

736
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: that the police are looking for two letters that a

737
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: street cleaner in Oxford, So where he went to school,

738
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: found on May eighteenth, which is two days after Thomas

739
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: was found. The street cleaner found these letters, two of them,

740
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: and they both had been signed Pat Moss. So Thomas's

741
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: name was you know, Thomas Pattison Moss, so it could

742
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: have been Pat Moss. It also might be another Pat Moss.

743
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: The street cleaner says he didn't open them and gave

744
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: the two letters to two people who had been sitting

745
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: on a nearby bench because they had a car, and

746
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: he said, can you bring these letters to the police.

747
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: But the police never got these letters. I don't know

748
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: why he wouldn't take them himself. But if these letters

749
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: were at all significant, they're in the wind at this point.

750
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so we have no details what these leves said.

751
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: No, no, and we have I mean, we've been down

752
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: the letter route on many other stories where you know,

753
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: it's like, where's this come from? Is this significant? Sometimes

754
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: it is, sometimes it's not.

755
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And do we know would Thomas sign his name

756
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: Pat Moss. Is this consistent.

757
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: I don't think they even looked into that, so I

758
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: don't know. Okay. May twenty ninth is when we pick

759
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: up the inquest again. There's one witness. He is a

760
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: classmate at Oxford. This is the one who I think

761
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: spoke to the police for more than an hour. The

762
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: rest of this inquest, which I know is driving people crazy,

763
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: gets pushed to June because everyone's taking final exams at

764
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: Oxford and so these witnesses are not available. This guy is.

765
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: He says that he last saw Thomas about eight fifteen

766
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: pm the night before he died, so that would have

767
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: been Thursday night if he died Friday early morning. This

768
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: was right after a dinner at the college within Oxford

769
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: University where he was. The classmate says that Thomas seemed

770
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: totally normal. He was a good guy, He had a

771
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: lot of friends, He was handsome, He was not in

772
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: the habit of walking alone that he never walked alone

773
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: in the countryside. He was generally a pretty happy guy. Now,

774
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: I don't know how he knows that this was not

775
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: something that Thomas would do. I doubt they had a conversation,

776
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: but it just wasn't in his habit to go on

777
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: like a stroll or a walk about by himself. It

778
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: would have been unusual according to this friend. They don't

779
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: know anything else except there's one witness who said they

780
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: saw him at ten point fifty but just kind of

781
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: passing by and that was it. Nobody else knows what

782
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: happened after this with Thomas, So we don't have a

783
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: lot of information about enemies, girlfriends, anything like that. It

784
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: just sounds like this is a guy just trying to

785
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: make it through school at a very challenging school, average life,

786
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: except he's from a very upper class family and that's

787
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: it as far as character, witnesses or anything like that.

788
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so at this point we don't have an investigative

789
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: direction to where we can start focusing in on a

790
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: smaller suspect pool. I mean, basically, this investigation is wide

791
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: open at this point, and it's still they're doing this

792
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: corner's inquest and they're trying, probably trying to get present

793
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 2: information so they can get the manner of death for

794
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 2: the death certificate. You know, that's what the inquest is

795
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: there for. Was this death at the hands of another,

796
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: Was this an accident? Was this natural? So at some

797
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 2: point during this inquest. Spillsbury has to come forward and

798
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: provide his findings, because that's critical. We have the fractured

799
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: skull and the broken bones, which he's saying appear to

800
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: be from the fire. You know what else is he finding?

801
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: Okay, it's time he's finally done. It's a month later.

802
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: There's been delays after delays. It's I know, June eighteenth,

803
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: so this is a month later. He comes back with

804
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: his analysis. There are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

805
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: nineteen e There's like fifteen points that he makes. So

806
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: I thought I had the idea that either we could

807
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: go point by a point and I'll pause and look

808
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: at you, or you could put your hand up if

809
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: you want to comment on one of these points. But

810
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: he tries to go through every scenario in his head

811
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: and see if the evidence matches up to it that

812
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: he finds. So how do you want to handle this,

813
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: detective holes.

814
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: I think I want to hear the totality of his

815
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 2: findings and then I can kind of weigh in after that.

816
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: Okay, this is what Spillsbury says. So Thomas's stomach contents

817
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: showed no sign of any poison, so he spent a

818
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: lot of time looking for poison a bottle, so they

819
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: had found a bottle near his body was burned too

820
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: badly to know what had been in and it looked

821
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: like maybe it was a prescription bottle, but there was

822
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: no way to know sure. He says. There was no

823
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: smell of gasoline petrol on what remained of Thomas's clothes,

824
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: so he didn't smell that kind of an accelerant. There

825
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: were no injuries on Thomas's body other than what occurred

826
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: during the fire. He says, all of his organs are intact.

827
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: He thinks this means kind of exactly what you said

828
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: that Thomas did not get hit by a car, otherwise

829
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 1: he would have seen some significant damage. And there were

830
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 1: no ligature marks or any other marks of strangulation on Thomas.

831
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: Well, and that's I think I'll comment on that is,

832
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: if I don't know the extent of the fire damage

833
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: to Thomas in terms of how much of his body

834
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: was really destroyed by the fire. So for Spillsbury to

835
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: draw conclusion saying I'm not seeing evidence of strangulation, whether

836
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: it be ligature or manual strangulation. That tells me that

837
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: the next structures must have been intact enough for Spillsbury

838
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: to form that opinion.

839
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to like this next bit. Well, first,

840
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: let me tell you Thomas was healthy. There's no disease

841
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: or anything that would point to something happening. This is

842
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: what he says. It's like you guys are of the

843
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: same mind because you say something and I have. That's

844
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: my next note. This is what he says about the

845
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: body being burnt. Okay, no, you'll like this. Okay, tell

846
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: me what you think. This is what he says. This

847
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: is a quote. The body was severely burned, but the

848
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: changes were of an unusual character in that while the

849
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: destruction of the tissues was limited to parts of the

850
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: limbs and the top of the head, the heating effects

851
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: were general and extended very deeply into the head and

852
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: the trunk. He believes that Thomas was exposed to the

853
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: effects of high heat much longer than he was exposed

854
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: to the flames.

855
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: So the location of the thermal damage, that's telling me,

856
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: And it was the arms and sounds like it was

857
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: the upper part of his head. Well, that indicates the

858
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: way that Thomas was laying I'm assuming on the ground

859
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: or on top of some hay. Well, that part of

860
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 2: his body is where the fire is raging, and so

861
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 2: you got that he's closest to the fire with his

862
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: head and his arms, but the rest of his body

863
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 2: is not. It's further away and it's not on fire.

864
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: So eventually he's probably got the fire encroaching on his

865
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: body or he's starting to burn. When the rescuers come

866
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: and put out the fire, the cows say hey, look,

867
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 2: you know, the cows basically stop Thomas's body from being

868
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: turned to ashes. You know, that's that's interesting from a

869
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: what is the point of origin of the fire. So

870
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 2: if this was a body disposal, typically the offenders are

871
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: going to light the body on fire and the surrounding flammables,

872
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: you know. And Spillsbury saying I'm not detecting the odor

873
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: of gasoline coming from from his body doesn't mean an

874
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 2: accelerant wasn't used. It's possible an accelerant was used in

875
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: order to help light some of the hate surrounding Thomas's body,

876
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: or the high heat has burned away the volatiles that

877
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: now Spillsbury can't smell. You know, Typically, like gasoline has

878
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: a wide variety of different volatiles in it, and the

879
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: lighter ones will burn away very quickly, but you can

880
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 2: still have some of the heavier volatiles that might be

881
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: present that might contribute to a gasoline like smell. But

882
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 2: there's other flammables that are very very lightweight that probably

883
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: with the high heat, could have evaporated completely. But the

884
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: lack of the burning on Thomas's body suggests he wasn't

885
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: lit on fire. The fire started somewhere else and was

886
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 2: coming towards him, with the fire being the closest to

887
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 2: his head. In his arms, he.

888
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: Has even more stuff than I think. This is all

889
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: really interesting. He says that the skin on Thomas's back

890
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: was less burned than on other areas of his body.

891
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: Spillsbury thinks that Thomas was laying on his back and

892
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: that's why, Yes, so listen to this. There were hay

893
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: fragments inside Thomas's air passages, they were only partially burned.

894
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: Thomas's blood was bright red, indicating, of course, you know,

895
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: exposure to carbon monoxide. We've talked about that before, which

896
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: is a byproduct of burning hay. And Spillsbury thinks that

897
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: Thomas was unconscious by the time he inhaled these pieces

898
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: of hay, because otherwise he would have woken up, and

899
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: you know, if he had the ability to wake up

900
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: and gotten up, if this is an accident, So what

901
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: do you think about that stuff? You know, in his

902
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: nasal passages, these pieces.

903
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: Of hay, It suggests this is in many ways, it's

904
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: like pathologists findings and drowning. You know, the innhilation of

905
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: water into the lungs suggests, you know, the individual was

906
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: at least breathing at the time the water was inhaled.

907
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: Here it sounds like Thomas is still breathing and is

908
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: pulling in these fragments of partially burned hay particles, which

909
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: suggests that the fire is going and Thomas is still breathing.

910
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean he has awareness. He could be laying there,

911
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 2: still alive, still breathing, but he's now succumbed to the

912
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: smoke inhalation, the bright red blood carbon monoxide. You know,

913
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: so he is in the process of dying as a

914
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 2: result of lack of oxygen to his body while the

915
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: fire is going on. And that's probably all you can

916
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: conclude with that, But it also suggests that, well, this

917
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: isn't a situation to where let's say he was killed

918
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 2: in some other location and then the offender drove his

919
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: body out to this location and started the fire. Unless, however, Thomas,

920
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: you know, succumbed to whatever the offender did to him

921
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: at the first location, I would expect him to be

922
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: dead by the time his body's at this location. So

923
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: you know, what is going on here? Is this homicide?

924
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 2: Is this accidental? I don't see it as being suicide,

925
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 2: but I don't know if you could rule that out,

926
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: considering Thomas has a source of starting a fire with

927
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: the matchbook that's in his pocket, you know, And I

928
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: don't know right now. I think it's it's still a

929
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: mystery with what you've told me.

930
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: Okay, maybe this will help make it less of a mystery.

931
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: And no, this is not a gotcha. Yeah, this is

932
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: just something that was part of the investigation. It's true.

933
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: So Spillsbury did a lot of research and I just

934
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: read this too. I did not know that hey can

935
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: spontaneously combust. Okay, it happens. Wet hay is actually more

936
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: likely to spontaneously combust than dry They said that biological

937
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: activity within the hay, which I guess happens more often

938
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: because it's if it's wet that it sets off a

939
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: chemical reaction that generates enough heat to light hay on fire.

940
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: I've heard about that growing up, and this is what

941
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: Spillsbury thinks happened. So he thinks that Thomas laid down

942
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: to go to sleep on some damp straw between two

943
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: haystacks so that he's protected from you know, I don't

944
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: know the wind or people walking up on him, one

945
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: of which was probably about to combust because it did happen,

946
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: and that he was affixiated from a lack of oxygen

947
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: by lying so close to the smoldering fire, and he

948
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: was likely dead before the haystack fully burst into flames

949
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: and burned his body. And that's what he thinks happened.

950
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, I am familiar. You do

951
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: have various agricultural products, you know, like in silos or

952
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: something where there is the possibility of this spontaneous combustion,

953
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes it has to do with particulates that are

954
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: in this enclosed space getting up to a certain level.

955
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 2: First time, I'm hearing about wet hay you know, but

956
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 2: that's not apprizing to me. I not arguing against that

957
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 2: as a possibility because of the lack of violence to

958
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: Thomas's body, but the question still remains, why is Thomas

959
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 2: out at this location?

960
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: Yep? And that's what bothers the coroner's jury because you know,

961
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: ultimately they agree with Spillsbury. They had all had heard

962
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: about this before. It's a known phenomenon which I had

963
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: not heard of before. So Spillsbury says this and everybody

964
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: buys it, except the jury does not think there is

965
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: a reasonable explanation for why he would have gone to

966
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: this place to begin with.

967
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: Sure, and you have the ear witness.

968
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, the scream and the car.

969
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: And then you have the car. You know, from my perspective,

970
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: that puts enough suspicion into what is the manner of

971
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 2: death that you know, I think today the ruling should

972
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: be undetermined. Okay, just because there's enough suspicious activity with

973
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: witnesses and Thomas's victimology that you go, okay, we don't

974
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: know how he died in terms of well let me

975
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 2: let me let me say it differently. It appears at

976
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: the fire was the cause of his death, but we

977
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 2: don't know was this accidental because of spontaneous combustion. We

978
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: don't know is this at the hands of another And

979
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: Thomas was you know, forced to be out there, or

980
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 2: maybe he was knocked unconscious and the amount of thermal

981
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: damage to his skull is not allowing Spillsbury to see

982
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: that there may have been, you know, a blow to

983
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 2: his head, you know, and then the fire was lit.

984
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: And this is I think important from a crime scene standpoint,

985
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 2: is in this day and age, this is where I

986
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: get the state Fire Marshal's office, the arson investigator out

987
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: or the local fire department's arson investigators out to answer

988
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: a question, how did this fire start? You know? And

989
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: they're the ones that have the expertise, not I. They

990
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 2: can see, they see the you know, the fire world.

991
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's amazing to watch them work because

992
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 2: they cease so much that I can't spot because I

993
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 2: don't have that day in, day out experience of looking

994
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: at the world after it's been burned.

995
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, but let's just buy into his theory that it

996
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: is the spontaneous combustion of these hay stacks or one

997
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: of them that did this, that he was asleep, he

998
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: was close to the one that combusted, and the fumes

999
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: got him first, and by the time everything went up

1000
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: in flames, he was already dead. Does everything that he

1001
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: is detailing lack of poison, lack of you know, disease,

1002
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,439
Speaker 1: the hay in the nostrils, all of that stuff makes

1003
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: sense to you if we are going to buy into

1004
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,240
Speaker 1: the combustion theory.

1005
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I cannot eliminate the possibility that this was an

1006
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: accidental as a result of Thomas being in that hayfield

1007
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,720
Speaker 2: that night for whatever reason, and there is spontaneous combustion.

1008
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 2: Everything Spillsbury is lining up is entirely consistent with that.

1009
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: Okay, say that again.

1010
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 2: It is entirely consistent with that.

1011
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: So he is still batting one thousand. My boyfriend, a

1012
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: pathologist who died probably eighty years ago or something.

1013
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to knock Spillsbury off of this this

1014
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: pedestal you've put him on.

1015
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: Well, I mean really, you know, but.

1016
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: This is so important for you. You have this experience

1017
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: pathologist being able to outline this, you know, and now

1018
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: it's marrying up what his findings are with the investigation.

1019
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: And that's where right now there appears to be a

1020
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: little bit of a conflict that needs to be resolved

1021
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 2: in order to really know what happened to Thomas.

1022
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: Well, this is not a formally closed case. I have

1023
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: not closed this case. So I don't know if anybody's

1024
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: working it, but you know, this is not closed. I

1025
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: think we might be the last one one's working. But

1026
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: it's definitely interesting. Sometimes we do these where they murdered.

1027
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: You know, remember the actress that we just talked about

1028
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. What happened? Did she die

1029
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: in the car in the garage? You know? And sometimes

1030
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: murder is not the thing that we conclude. But I

1031
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: think it's all interesting because like how much we talked

1032
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: about the processes that happen in the body, and you know,

1033
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: the different ways that pathologists have to look at these

1034
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: cases to try to systematically eliminate what everybody thinks is happening,

1035
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: which is oftentimes not true.

1036
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 2: Sure, but you know, working in law enforcement, whether you're

1037
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 2: a homicide investigator, you're a CSI pathologist, death investigator, we

1038
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 2: go out on cases which are we're not sure there's

1039
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: a homicide or not. The proper mindset is always to

1040
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: treat it like a homicide because that's when all the

1041
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 2: resources are flowing in. You enact all the resources to

1042
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: get everything documented, everything collected, everything that you know, all

1043
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: the experts that would weigh in a homicide case, and

1044
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 2: then you go, oh, the haystack just spontaneously combusted. You know,

1045
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 2: It's kind of reminds me of the couple who died

1046
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: near the lake and turns out the lake is putting

1047
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: off noxious gases. Not a homicide, it's an accidental death.

1048
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: That always needs to be the approach in these cases.

1049
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 2: And so that's why I get called out. And there's suicides,

1050
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,919
Speaker 2: but there's something somebody goes, this doesn't look right, and

1051
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: sometimes they're right and it's actually a homicide and it's

1052
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: been staged to look like a suicide, or it's an

1053
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 2: actual suicide and it's just an unusual one. Sometimes I've

1054
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: had to go out to accidental deaths, you know, typically overdoses,

1055
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,439
Speaker 2: but there's just enough to where somebody's going, this could

1056
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 2: be a homicide. So in this particular case, I think

1057
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: with Thomas, from my perspective, is everything Spillsberry is outlining

1058
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 2: is yes, this suggests that this was accidental. I just

1059
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 2: think there's too much of a mystery of why Thomas

1060
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 2: is out in this hayfield and we have the ear

1061
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 2: witness observing a car going in and rapidly going out.

1062
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: What's up with that? You know, if that's actually even accurate.

1063
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: And so this is where I think the corner's in

1064
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: quest that the proper finding is this is undetermined and

1065
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: law enforcement needs to proceed as if it's a homicide

1066
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 2: up until they're able to answer those questions.

1067
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: Okay, this case is one of the ones that's I mean,

1068
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: that has taught me the most, and of course it's

1069
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: you and Spillsbury, So we will definitely return to a Spillsbury.

1070
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: Where are you, Paul, don't get jealous, God, but I'm

1071
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: determined to bring you an actual murder next week, and

1072
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: not a guy in a haystack where we're trying to

1073
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: figure out exactly what happened. But I love good mystery,

1074
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: So you never know.

1075
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: Right well, you know, and I think you know part

1076
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: of it. You know, when you do work these types

1077
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: of cases, you learn from them. So when you do

1078
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: have the homicide that has some similar parallels, there's experience

1079
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: that you can draw upon. And the reality is is

1080
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: that you can read all the CSI textbooks, pathology textbooks,

1081
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 2: everything else, you can never ever replace the experience of

1082
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: real life cases. So this is a real life case

1083
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 2: that these Spillsbury, these officers, these investigators, they're all learning

1084
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: for the next case that comes along, where now they

1085
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: can they know how to kind of proceed once they

1086
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: see something that they've seen from Thomas's case.

1087
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee you that when we come back

1088
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: from our one week katus that we will have a

1089
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: murder and it won't be a mystery case. But we'll

1090
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: see I can't guarantee anything, you.

1091
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: Mean, I've got to wait what two weeks before I

1092
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 2: hear this next case.

1093
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: I know, I'm sorry about that, buddy.

1094
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: All right, well, I look forward to it.

1095
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: Then, thank you, We'll see you.

1096
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: Then sounds good.

1097
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1098
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly writemedia dot

1099
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1100
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1101
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1102
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1103
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1104
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1105
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1106
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1107
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1108
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1109
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1110
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1111
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1112
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.

1113
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1114
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.