Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories.
Speaker 4: Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, an
Speaker 4: SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara Klink and I'm Liza Traeger. Hello.
Speaker 2: Every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the
Speaker 2: true crime it's based on, and then we have a
Speaker 2: guest from the episode, and in the beginning we catch up.
Speaker 2: We really haven't been in the same place in months. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and we are actually recording.
Speaker 1: We record a lot on zoom and today we are
Speaker 1: recording face to face baby, and it's good to see you.
Speaker 3: It's good to see you.
Speaker 1: Your fresh off today, your fresh off a trip. You're
Speaker 1: looking great.
Speaker 3: That's the whole thing.
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to come here and be like,
Speaker 2: holy shit, vacation, vacation, fun, Chicago, New York, my friends,
Speaker 2: everything was great. But then I got to la fully
Speaker 2: burst into tears in my apartment.
Speaker 3: I fucking hate it.
Speaker 2: And but then I was like, whatever, my air conditioners fixed.
Speaker 3: That's all I need. You baby, want it.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hang some shit on the wall and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna feel good. And then there was construction in my building, buzzing, drilling,
Speaker 2: and no one warned me, and I just can't believe it.
Speaker 2: And it, truly, I was hanging on by a thread
Speaker 2: and now it's it's cut.
Speaker 1: But it's like you're on the calm down from a
Speaker 1: very fun vacation, right, is not a little bit what
Speaker 1: the sadness is about?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And then you have to catch up on everything.
Speaker 2: Yes, No, you're always trying to make me not hate
Speaker 2: it as much. And I know it's cliche a bitch
Speaker 2: about La, but maybe there's.
Speaker 3: A reason for that.
Speaker 1: I feel like you always say this, And then within
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, you're at the store, you're bopping
Speaker 1: around town your love and life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.
Speaker 1: Tune in next week when Rose, when Lisa's fully reporting.
Speaker 3: To us from her new apartment.
Speaker 2: But I didn't see Oscar and he's just a big
Speaker 2: ass baby and he's like grown.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Rosie like heard Lisa was around the house
Speaker 1: and was like Lisa and like ran to her.
Speaker 3: So you had a little acting coach sashon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I was glad Ted got to lay eyes
Speaker 1: on Rosie.
Speaker 3: Maybe when she becomes a child actress, he can work
Speaker 3: with her. She would make tons of money.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why you don't push that further
Speaker 2: because I have to take her.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and I had to be around those moms. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that would that would be terrible. No, you have enough.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 2: I had kind of a dream week. It was like
Speaker 2: I went nightclubbing with the club owner. You know, I
Speaker 2: was like in a booth across from the DJ, jumping
Speaker 2: on a jumping up and down as like cold steam
Speaker 2: blue in my face. Yeah, like you know, bottles of champagne,
Speaker 2: like with fire out of it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: We had like a real like this week.
Speaker 1: Lisa called me and we had a real like two
Speaker 1: roads diverged in the wood and I took the road
Speaker 1: with two children, and like Lisa took the road with
Speaker 1: fucking partying and nightclubs and like she was just living
Speaker 1: like her best life. And I was like, cool, I'm
Speaker 1: potty training my two year old.
Speaker 3: Well good for.
Speaker 2: Her, but no, she's Scottie Pippen at the Soho House
Speaker 2: pool in Chicago.
Speaker 3: Can you get more like what a sighting for a
Speaker 3: Chicago person went? To a Cubs game, second row behind
Speaker 3: the home team. Dugout amazing.
Speaker 2: It was just a little much, but at least I
Speaker 2: got stuck in a hurricane to humble me back down. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and after my birthday party, I was struggling, if that's
Speaker 2: what you say.
Speaker 3: I was in a dark room. Oh, it was tough.
Speaker 1: To Lisa and I had to get on a video
Speaker 1: call the day after her birthday, and I was like,
Speaker 1: note to us, we don't do any business the day
Speaker 1: after Lisa's birthday. Anyone's birthday, Yeah, anyone's birthday. You just
Speaker 1: like were in a Yeah. I didn't see your face.
Speaker 1: You were just in a dark road.
Speaker 3: But I set it up top. I go, I'm not
Speaker 3: getting on camera, And I think that's fine.
Speaker 2: What's the fuck is up with Google hangouts? You can't
Speaker 2: hide the camera and zoom you can at least hide it.
Speaker 3: You can't. I mean, I'm sure you can't. I was
Speaker 3: not in a place, but I.
Speaker 2: Was watching a lot of below deck. Yeah, you don't
Speaker 2: watch any of it. I want you to know my
Speaker 2: new mantra. So there's Hannah. She's a superstar and she's
Speaker 2: like the chief stewardess, Like she's the chief girl, And at.
Speaker 3: The end of one of this whole season, one of
Speaker 3: the girls.
Speaker 2: That worked under her was just like, I just want
Speaker 2: you to know you're the worst chief stew I've ever
Speaker 2: worked for.
Speaker 3: I think you're terrible.
Speaker 2: Ball blah just kept going on and on and Hannah
Speaker 2: just went okay, and it drove Bugsy insane.
Speaker 3: And that is something I'm trying to take with me.
Speaker 1: It's like, that's literally the full premise of that sketch
Speaker 1: on SNL with Pete Davidson, Like people just say saything
Speaker 1: to him and he goes, okay, okay, you know have
Speaker 1: you seen that?
Speaker 3: No, but you watch every episode. I am a weirdly
Speaker 3: sn'll complete is.
Speaker 2: Oh I want everyone to know. So I ran into
Speaker 2: someone that worked at SNL and this is amazing. I said,
Speaker 2: I go, need, I have some professional things to bring
Speaker 2: up to you. And I could see the fear in
Speaker 2: her eyes, like she thought I was about to ask
Speaker 2: to write it, Like I could just tell she was nervous,
Speaker 2: and then she was relieved when I went, why is
Speaker 2: Marishko Hargatain not hosted the show? He's asses in the air,
Speaker 2: you know, like they're coming together.
Speaker 3: Why can't they do it? Together. What is going they're
Speaker 3: just having agent. They're on your network for decades. They're
Speaker 3: both funny. Yeah, they're both good.
Speaker 2: They're actor, they're gonna show up on time, they're gonna
Speaker 2: work with everyone.
Speaker 3: It's enby what is going on.
Speaker 2: And so she sent some texts and she said, if
Speaker 2: it happens, that we'll get to go. But I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 2: if it happens, I would like to take full credit.
Speaker 2: I mean literally, there should be press around you watch
Speaker 2: she's just like making sandwiches there. Yeah, She's like, sure,
Speaker 2: I'll text somebody.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 1: I can't understand how SNL's always after like the new
Speaker 1: hot shit and maybe they're a little old, but it's like,
Speaker 1: bring on Benson and stable and then make the guest
Speaker 1: be like fucking little nase X for somebody that's really hot,
Speaker 1: Like make the musical guest somebody really young and hot.
Speaker 3: I love Little nas X's pregnant Bellay, I know much.
Speaker 3: It's so funny. I do too.
Speaker 1: It's so I just love how hard he trolls on people,
Speaker 1: like he's so.
Speaker 3: Good at it.
Speaker 1: She's like, he knew this would drive the conservative's fucking
Speaker 1: nuts to see a gay black man with the pregnant belly.
Speaker 3: It's like bingo for fuck faces. But it's just so
Speaker 3: silly that it's like, how do you even be mad
Speaker 3: at that? I know she's not actual. What's going on?
Speaker 3: Why are you mad? Baby? It's so good? So thank
Speaker 3: you for posting. I did it. I saw everyone write
Speaker 3: nice things to me. Oh yeah Lisa's birthday post.
Speaker 1: You guys are the best listeners, and you all gave
Speaker 1: Lisa but some beautiful birthday love.
Speaker 3: But you had a great birthday, right? Oh yeah, it
Speaker 3: was awesome.
Speaker 2: I you know, I did live through the hurricane, but no,
Speaker 2: it was incredible.
Speaker 3: I felt really lucky for my friends, and I liked
Speaker 3: everyone around me.
Speaker 2: And then then, I mean I was way more hammered
Speaker 2: than I ever anticipated, because the next day they were like,
Speaker 2: we were all singing share. I didn't sing share. I
Speaker 2: was like, I only took a couple shots. She goes
Speaker 2: every time I saw you, you were taking a shot.
Speaker 2: So I was like, I left my phone in a cab.
Speaker 2: I offered them one hundred fifty. I got into a
Speaker 2: fight at the bodega. I was this guy was seizing.
Speaker 2: I was like, get your mask, how dare you? And
Speaker 2: he goes, you're not wearing a mask. As I just like, well,
Speaker 2: why are you cutting in line? And he went, don't
Speaker 2: talk to me like I was truly just out on
Speaker 2: the town.
Speaker 1: Sounds like you were at peak, Liza, and that's perfect
Speaker 1: for your birthday.
Speaker 3: And I did get dosed.
Speaker 2: I thought I was eating an edible and it was mushrooms.
Speaker 2: So I did have one night that was less than ideal.
Speaker 2: But Lady Gaga got you through it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well I had one night that was crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had one crazy night. I went to WIHO to
Speaker 1: West Hollywood everybody to see to watch the finale of
Speaker 1: All Stars six I happened.
Speaker 3: I called up some of my old drag Race friends.
Speaker 1: All we all wanted to see each other or whatever,
Speaker 1: so we and some of them still work on the show.
Speaker 1: So we all got together at Roccos, which is a
Speaker 1: bar that Lands Bass owns in West Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Okay, little vander Pump Junior.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I turns out Eureka was hosting that night,
Speaker 1: so Eureka's there.
Speaker 3: I got to meet Eureka. I'd never met her before.
Speaker 3: She was so sweet.
Speaker 1: Actually I had met her one she was getting on
Speaker 1: an airplane and they did not have her first class ticket,
Speaker 1: and she was just straw and she looked like she
Speaker 1: was just really going through it, and I went, I
Speaker 1: just want to tell you, I think you're so talented,
Speaker 1: and she was like thanks Sis, and then that was
Speaker 1: it and like we just hadn't But so then I
Speaker 1: really met her. The other night, I got irresponsibly drunk.
Speaker 1: For having two children, I don't know, maybe I should
Speaker 1: be able to get as drunk as I want, but I.
Speaker 3: Got really drunk. I met Manila.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Manila was out of drag, and I
Speaker 1: just she was so cool and I was just like
Speaker 1: I was so drunk and I kept seeing being like, well,
Speaker 1: I just think you were robbed, and like she doesn't
Speaker 1: give a fuck about All Stars four. It was like
Speaker 1: four years ago.
Speaker 3: She's rich, who cares?
Speaker 1: And I just I really feel like I embarrassed myself.
Speaker 1: Pheromone was there. I forgot to say. Eureka walked in
Speaker 1: with Tori Spelling and Snookie on either side of her,
Speaker 1: Like what an entrance. But my friend Jed was with me,
Speaker 1: aka biggest gossip from Connecticut high school that Lisa has
Speaker 1: dubbed him, and he was like, I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know why she brought them.
Speaker 3: It's not like gays care about them, Like.
Speaker 1: They don't know, they don't care about Snooki and Tory,
Speaker 1: but maybe they're real friends. But then the next day
Speaker 1: one of our friends sent us a clip that was like,
Speaker 1: Tory Spelling looks fully like Chloe Kardashian.
Speaker 3: Now she's just had so much work done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's weird because she looks like a better
Speaker 2: version of Chloe.
Speaker 3: It's like upsetting. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, I forgot we did intro, so maybe people already
Speaker 2: heard about Pippin and Cubs and if that's the case,
Speaker 2: to deal with it.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I think it's okay because now you're
Speaker 3: in your set.
Speaker 1: You did a little bit of Pippot and Cubs in nightclub,
Speaker 1: but you didn't do full New York, full birthday.
Speaker 3: You know, we're getting the whole, the whole trip.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to fucking drool a little bit,
Speaker 1: go over to Lisa's Instagram and check out her NYC
Speaker 1: food posts because that was some great photography.
Speaker 3: Going out with a chef is nice. Yeah, Emmy's guy. Yeah. Wait,
Speaker 3: so let's talk about all stars.
Speaker 2: Also, Manila was in my favorite lip sync this season
Speaker 2: with Kylie's Sony Club for Journey.
Speaker 3: That was good.
Speaker 2: That's when I was like, oh, Kylie is my girl.
Speaker 2: Once she did a handstand into the splits, I was like.
Speaker 1: And when she in the in the it's another thing
Speaker 1: where it's like really, coming into the finale, anything can
Speaker 1: fucking happen. Everyone thought Shaye was gonna win season nine,
Speaker 1: and those fucking took it for Sasha, like, if you
Speaker 1: have a really good performance in the finelle, I think
Speaker 1: you can win. And Kylie slipping and doing that summersault,
Speaker 1: that's a professional amazing, that was a professional move.
Speaker 3: That was yeah.
Speaker 6: Wait.
Speaker 2: So I went to my first in person, not driving
Speaker 2: drag show in Chicago.
Speaker 3: You went to drag brunch. I went to no food though,
Speaker 3: so I was funny.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm sitting with my two girlfriends and
Speaker 2: you know in walks shake Coulee down the stairs and
Speaker 2: I go, hey girl, and I she gave me one
Speaker 2: of the the nicest, deepest hugs I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 3: And then I did feel cool.
Speaker 2: I got to introduce my girlfriend you don't even tell
Speaker 2: me this to shakehul At.
Speaker 1: I saw you in a photo with Shay's boyfriend. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, she got another with Dan's boyfriend, who
Speaker 1: we love, big fan of the friend of the pod.
Speaker 3: But like, I didn't know you mentioned you saw sche
Speaker 3: well and.
Speaker 2: Then she was like, I'll be right back. She never
Speaker 2: came back, but Dan was like, she's not coming. But
Speaker 2: and then Dan goes and you know, there's no food.
Speaker 2: So we're watching a drag show. I'm tipping tens twenty.
Speaker 2: I'm like throwing money at these people. Oh they are
Speaker 2: so good, so talented. There was a white lotus lip
Speaker 2: syning no yes, and it was like the massage scene
Speaker 2: with Jennifer Coolidge, and it went into my neck, my backs,
Speaker 2: into tweets.
Speaker 3: Oh, white lotus to tweet. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 2: And then one was doing one hundred percent Pure Love
Speaker 2: and these are yeah, Dan knew all of them. These
Speaker 2: are all his friends and one of the queens, they're
Speaker 2: like the walls are windows.
Speaker 3: So she runs out in the middle of the performance,
Speaker 3: runs into the middle of.
Speaker 2: The street with full feathers, like fun outfit, and is
Speaker 2: dancing in the middle of the street. And then I
Speaker 2: see my friend Catherine and I go, what, why is
Speaker 2: Catherine there? We text Catherine and she goes, I need
Speaker 2: to eat. I fell down and then so we're trying
Speaker 2: to close out. We chased her. Both my friends, both
Speaker 2: Veronica and puking in the streets. I'm sober, I'm driving them.
Speaker 2: I drink as much as them, Like, I don't know
Speaker 2: what happened. Both of my friends. We went to Jetsya
Speaker 2: and then just puking all over the streets. I had
Speaker 2: to bring Veronica to my show like and try to
Speaker 2: chill her.
Speaker 3: But it was wild. It was wild, and then I
Speaker 3: had shows. I had two shows that night. I hope
Speaker 3: you know that's amazing.
Speaker 1: Wait, speaking of White Lotus, we were so big into
Speaker 1: it when I was staying with my family on the
Speaker 1: East Coast that my brothers got Rosie to start saying,
Speaker 1: nehow Nicole Moss Boker and she says it like all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 3: Now it's like so good. That is amazing. If you
Speaker 3: haven't watched White Lotus, check that show.
Speaker 2: Dan and I took shots of Mallure And also, I
Speaker 2: love everyone's Chicago love in the comments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's like, fuck that Oklahoma bitch. You guys are
Speaker 1: real ones.
Speaker 3: And we love you.
Speaker 2: But it was amazing to see drag and I can't
Speaker 2: wait to see more.
Speaker 1: Well, now that you're here, maybe I'll take you to
Speaker 1: some drag in one of the greatest drag cities that
Speaker 1: you currently live in, and you can stop hating.
Speaker 3: It please, I want to. And it was just it
Speaker 3: was really great. It was really fun.
Speaker 1: Eureka was like, so she was kind of performing and
Speaker 1: but but it's just like watching the show in a
Speaker 1: bar is just so fun. Maybe they'll be maybe they'll
Speaker 1: be UK viewings for like the new season of UK
Speaker 1: and we'll go, oh, I would yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Heard there's Italian now too. I mean, they can't stop
Speaker 2: even for me.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I need a I don't watch Holland and
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna watch a Span yet, but I would
Speaker 1: watch Italia just because I love it Italy and I
Speaker 1: speak Italian and I would like it would kind of
Speaker 1: okay stable, I'm I'm that's messed up pods guy in Rome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's me call back to episode one of our podcasts.
Speaker 3: I can't believe people listen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really fun meeting everyone out and about
Speaker 2: one of my favorite.
Speaker 3: Girls at the cellar, Sarah was like, you know, I
Speaker 3: listen and I go I didn't know I got it.
Speaker 1: I got a part time babysitter, got her turned onto it.
Speaker 1: She was sitting behind me watching my child and I
Speaker 1: and I heard her phone go off and it was
Speaker 1: a lot on Order s View's theme song. And I
Speaker 1: was like, excuse me, is that your phone? And she
Speaker 1: was like yeah, and I was like, I got to
Speaker 1: tell you about something. So I'm converting people by hiring
Speaker 1: them into my life.
Speaker 2: Oh and the last night of New York I love
Speaker 2: David Telly's my favorite comedian and he's going after me
Speaker 2: at the comedy He's so good.
Speaker 3: And I was there with this a few friends.
Speaker 2: We'd been drinking, but I was laughing harder than I've
Speaker 2: ever laughed in my life. And then he brought me
Speaker 2: on stage with him. I got to sit on the
Speaker 2: piano bench and it was like old times and we're
Speaker 2: just like riffing back and forth and it was like
Speaker 2: I couldn't.
Speaker 3: No wonder you started crying when you got home. Oh
Speaker 3: my god.
Speaker 1: And one more quick thing before we go, just a
Speaker 1: reminder that Lisa and I will be doing stand up
Speaker 1: at the Moontower Comedy Festival the last weekend of September,
Speaker 1: which is the twenty third through the twenty fifth, But
Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth, we will be doing a live
Speaker 1: That's Messed Up at six thirty pm at the Parker
Speaker 1: Jazz Club. If you have friends in Austin, if you
Speaker 1: live in Austin, please send them our way, Please send
Speaker 1: yourselves our way, Please come and see us, because we
Speaker 1: would love that. All right, let's move on. We've got
Speaker 1: a great episode for you today. Let's get Lisa's La
Speaker 1: groove back on. Let's get going. We're going to talk
Speaker 1: today about Mother season five, episode three.
Speaker 3: I've seen this one a million times and never gets old.
Speaker 1: So the episode starts with two dudes like walking in
Speaker 1: New York. One is like very scared of everything he's seeing.
Speaker 1: He's very like, he acts like he's just I don't know,
Speaker 1: he's so scared to be in New York. He references
Speaker 1: a paraplegic hooker. Not my words, but I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on with these two guys. They go up
Speaker 1: to an unmarked door.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if you're so scared of New York, you
Speaker 2: don't have to be going to the unmarked doors in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: Go back to the Double Tree in Times Square, bitch, exactly.
Speaker 1: I was I was thinking the same thing. I was
Speaker 1: kind of like you also, just like, don't need to
Speaker 1: come to New York if this is so hard for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can just go eat ramen. There's other things
Speaker 3: to do. Yeah. Times Square is very there's an eminem.
Speaker 2: Ste So are you trying to find sex workers in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it might be a sketchy area. Yeah. Well, I
Speaker 3: think we find out they're trying to do Heroin.
Speaker 1: I'll get into it, but I'm confused as to what
Speaker 1: this journey is for these two guys. They go up
Speaker 1: to an unmarked door and there's a guy guarding it,
Speaker 1: and the guy just says to him Enrique, and then
Speaker 1: he's like Ricardo down at the Java Barn and soho
Speaker 1: said you could hook us up. So I think what
Speaker 1: they're trying to do here is convey to us that
Speaker 1: these guys are total losers that are getting their hookups
Speaker 1: from like random baristas that they meet, Like they don't
Speaker 1: actually know anyone that can help them get what they need,
Speaker 1: so they just have to talk to whoever.
Speaker 3: They pay this guy at the door twenty.
Speaker 1: Bucks and the guy goes that was just a house
Speaker 1: fee because they thought twenty bucks was going to get them.
Speaker 1: I guess the drugs they're looking for. And they're like,
Speaker 1: he's like, Enrika is downstairs, third door on the left.
Speaker 1: They go looking for him and they're like, second door
Speaker 1: on the left. It's like you guys, and the one
Speaker 1: guy goes, just try not to pee my pants. It's like,
Speaker 1: act like you've been there before. You're being really embarrassing.
Speaker 1: I know it might be your first time in a
Speaker 1: heroin shooting house, but you need to just calm down.
Speaker 1: So they walk through all this nasty warehouse. There's all
Speaker 1: these drippings sounds, which is obviously I think what the
Speaker 1: folly artist does to make things seem creepy.
Speaker 3: It's just random dripping sounds.
Speaker 1: And then they go into a room looking for Enrique
Speaker 1: and they see a woman lying on the bed and
Speaker 1: we can't.
Speaker 3: Really tell what's up, like she might be tied to
Speaker 3: the bed.
Speaker 1: And one of the dudes goes, we're still going to
Speaker 1: score flip you to see who does it first. So
Speaker 1: this guy is a piece of trash, and the scared
Speaker 1: boy at least has a conscience and goes, you, sick freak,
Speaker 1: she's unconscious, And that is a man who was raised correctly,
Speaker 1: even though he was raised to believe that everything in
Speaker 1: New York is very scary. He says something about not
Speaker 1: being able to get it up once the h hits,
Speaker 1: and that's what makes me think that they're obviously.
Speaker 3: On the hunt for heroin.
Speaker 1: And the other guy is just essentially about to rape
Speaker 1: this woman when two cops bust in and they hank
Speaker 1: up these guys, and then they try to wake up
Speaker 1: this woman and we can that's when we can see
Speaker 1: that her hands are duct taped, so her hands have
Speaker 1: been duct taped together, and she's.
Speaker 3: Just lying unconscious on this bed.
Speaker 1: So and the next scene, Benson and Stabler are there
Speaker 1: and the cop is walking them through what's up. He's
Speaker 1: just telling them like, she has no track marks, she
Speaker 1: took a nasty blow to the head, she has no idea.
Speaker 1: She's just not the typical person that you would find
Speaker 1: in one of these They keep calling it a shooting gallery,
Speaker 1: which I had never heard that term before, but I
Speaker 1: guess that's how you talk about a place where people
Speaker 1: do heroin. And then he says he found this guy
Speaker 1: with his pants down about to do her, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I was just trying to help her up classic Benson line,
Speaker 1: she goes with your penis and I just have always
Speaker 1: loved that line. And then they're wheeling the woman out.
Speaker 1: We don't know at this point whether she's dead or not.
Speaker 1: She's just been kind of lying on the she was
Speaker 1: lying on the thing.
Speaker 3: I thought maybe she was dead when we found her,
Speaker 3: but she just has a head injury.
Speaker 1: And as they get her into the light, Benson and
Speaker 1: Stabler actually recognize her as the expert witness from some
Speaker 1: big trial and her name is doctor Greta Hintz, and
Speaker 1: Stabler goes, she's the woman who thinks she can fix rapists,
Speaker 1: and then we're at the credits. That's a troublesome profession
Speaker 1: to think you can fix rapists, I guess. We find
Speaker 1: out that she is a top forensic psychiatrist who teaches
Speaker 1: at Hudson Medical School. She spends most of her time
Speaker 1: trying to cure sex offenders.
Speaker 3: And wrote a book about it.
Speaker 1: And these two guys that were wandering New York alternately
Speaker 1: scared and trying to write people were doing research for
Speaker 1: their art. They had mentioned a chapter or something, so
Speaker 1: I guess they're writers.
Speaker 3: Finna Munch bring in.
Speaker 1: The door guy and the two dorks who paid to
Speaker 1: get in, and he's like, I was just hanging out.
Speaker 1: I don't know shit, and they're like, that's probably not
Speaker 1: the case. You are a door guy at this shooting gallery.
Speaker 1: So they interrogate him and he's like, I knew those
Speaker 1: two cholos were bad luck. I thought that was confusing,
Speaker 1: because that's these men are not my definition of cholos.
Speaker 1: The door guy's name is Javier Francisco Medina, aka Badass.
Speaker 1: He has a long rap sheet and he tells them
Speaker 1: that this woman, doctor Heinz, came in thirty minutes before
Speaker 1: the raid and she's one of those do good her
Speaker 1: she's bad for business. He didn't want to let her in,
Speaker 1: but she said she had a patient inside who was
Speaker 1: in trouble and she gave him forty dollars. So then
Speaker 1: we find out doctor Heinz is awake and the last
Speaker 1: thing she remembers is leaving the Hamptons. She has no
Speaker 1: clue who did this, and she will not give them
Speaker 1: any of her client's names. She's very, very big on
Speaker 1: the therapists client privilege and will not tell them anyone
Speaker 1: who she even suspects would have done this. Even though
Speaker 1: you can I think as a therapist report someone that
Speaker 1: you think is has committed a crime or might commit
Speaker 1: another crime. So, and then Benson says to Stabler when
Speaker 1: they're talking about it, how would you feel if Kathy
Speaker 1: was treating sex offenders one on one? And he goes,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't letter, And Benson's like letter, and he's like,
Speaker 1: did I say that?
Speaker 3: Classic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, with every resewatch, it's confusing that anyone ever truly
Speaker 2: liked him. It's basically just his looks at this point
Speaker 2: that is keeping him.
Speaker 3: It actually got me googling Kathy. I was like, do
Speaker 3: she has she ever had a job.
Speaker 1: Or she's just been a stay at home I mean,
Speaker 1: he's really never let her do anything except have many
Speaker 1: many of his children. And all it really says in
Speaker 1: her thing about her is that she's a moment a
Speaker 1: very devout Catholic. But anyway, so they think they can
Speaker 1: work around the doctor's confidentiality issues by looking up like
Speaker 1: who was court appointed to see her? And Finn and
Speaker 1: Munch go check it out and says that there's like
Speaker 1: about two dozen of these patients that are seeing doctor Hinz.
Speaker 1: Bruce Horden was one guy who was seeing her and
Speaker 1: said he'd rip her guts out if he had to
Speaker 1: see her again. And then the guy says her method
Speaker 1: is a little unorthodox. So we're getting an idea that
Speaker 1: this is not just like a regular tell me how
Speaker 1: you feel therapist. So now we're at the fish market
Speaker 1: talking to this guy Bruce. He is pretty scary. He's
Speaker 1: very large, and he's like slapping a butcher knife down
Speaker 1: and chopping the heads off of fish the entire I
Speaker 1: love him.
Speaker 3: He's a top ten character, I would say of all history.
Speaker 3: He was.
Speaker 2: He is very nervous, so muscular, so wild, and I
Speaker 2: bet he has a voice of an angel like I
Speaker 2: bet he's a Broadway guy or something.
Speaker 3: Oh, we should look him up.
Speaker 2: I also looks up the door guy because I was
Speaker 2: obsessed with him.
Speaker 3: But he's not famous, even though he should be.
Speaker 1: He was funny, Yeah, I thought he was very good.
Speaker 1: We're talking to Bruce, and Bruce is like that bitch.
Speaker 1: Tried to emasculate me, told me to suck on my thumb,
Speaker 1: gave me stuffed animals, read me bedtime stories, had me
Speaker 1: call her mommy. And I feel like he could use
Speaker 1: a little childlike wonder in his life. But he was
Speaker 1: not interested in it, and her therapy backfired. He said
Speaker 1: her program made me want to go out and prove
Speaker 1: my manhood, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 1: He's a very scary character to me with his big
Speaker 1: threats of rape. But now we're talking to Huang. He
Speaker 1: says that doctor Heinz is a pioneer in the field.
Speaker 1: She believes all sex offenders were themselves abused, and Benson's like, yeah, duh,
Speaker 1: most were, and she thinks if they can be regressed
Speaker 1: back to the time of trauma, then she can reparent them.
Speaker 1: They call it healing their psychic booboos. I forget who
Speaker 1: says that month. Maybe it's cutting edge stuff, and the
Speaker 1: jury is still out on whether any of it works.
Speaker 1: And I have actually heard a lot of moms in
Speaker 1: my mom group refer to like reparenting themselves, like trying
Speaker 1: to break the bad patterns of their own childhoods.
Speaker 3: So I think this is like a thing that people. Definitely,
Speaker 3: I'm very.
Speaker 2: Conflicted about the mom groups because I did get this
Speaker 2: couch from one of the moms, but then they're also
Speaker 2: trying to close my dispensary, So I don't.
Speaker 3: Know how to feel about these moms.
Speaker 1: I know, but I have to tell you, I think
Speaker 1: that there's only a couple moms trying to close the dispensary,
Speaker 1: not that many people are joining in on the crusade.
Speaker 3: There is a flyer on our friend's doorstep to close it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're definitely vocal, but I just don't think they're
Speaker 1: getting a lot of help.
Speaker 3: From the other moms. A lot of us are not contributing.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I hope it doesn't work because I
Speaker 1: like that dispensary also, But I've just heard of like
Speaker 1: this reparenting stuff like if you go back, like try
Speaker 1: to think about your own childhood and not repeat your
Speaker 1: same traumas, you won't pass them on and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure it's deeper than that, and as evidenced
Speaker 1: by this woman's therapy, that we'll find out moret And
Speaker 1: Craigan's like, you can't rehab these guys. They need to
Speaker 1: be locked up, and Benson says, well, you know, seven
Speaker 1: to out of ten of them will rape again.
Speaker 3: So at least she's trying something, you know.
Speaker 1: So Craigan suggests civil commitment, which is like Newshawn Williams,
Speaker 1: which we talked about a couple of episodes ago, and
Speaker 1: Munch is like, oh yeah, make them pay for their
Speaker 1: crime twice. That'll go over gangbusters at the ACLU. So
Speaker 1: Munch is on our side here about that. So Hoong
Speaker 1: tells them that doctor Heinz is actually on the Civil
Speaker 1: Commitment Review Board and that they just let out their
Speaker 1: first rapist, a guy named Benny Edgar Ralsay, believed to
Speaker 1: have raped thirty to forty victims. They only got him
Speaker 1: on seven or eight up in Albany, and he was
Speaker 1: known as the.
Speaker 3: Duct tape rapist.
Speaker 1: So that's why it's sort of important to remember that
Speaker 1: she was found with her hands duct taped together in
Speaker 1: this shooting gallery. So she claimed that Benny Edgar ral
Speaker 1: Say's treatment was a total success.
Speaker 3: So now Finn goes to visit Benny his.
Speaker 1: Job at an electronics store, and he's like, doctor Heinz
Speaker 1: completely rewired me.
Speaker 3: I don't even think that way anymore.
Speaker 1: He says he would never hurt her because she's the
Speaker 1: whole reason he's out. She's like a mother to me. Keyword.
Speaker 1: He was home alone that night, but he was also
Speaker 1: wearing an ankle monitor. So then they go talk to
Speaker 1: this guy and there's this whole thing about the ankle monitor,
Speaker 1: and like the guy just keeps saying too many times
Speaker 1: how perfect and fool proof it is. And whenever you're
Speaker 1: talking about that so much, it's like, clearly there's a problem.
Speaker 1: There's a hole in your logic because someone's going to
Speaker 1: figure out how to fuck with it. He has this
Speaker 1: GPS on him, and like they track him and they're like, see,
Speaker 1: right now, he's on his way home from work, and
Speaker 1: there's areas that are flagged red for areas of known
Speaker 1: sex work, and that's off limits to him because a
Speaker 1: lot of his victims were sex workers. And Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: he's getting awfully close to a ho zone right now.
Speaker 3: I don't know Stabler with the word play.
Speaker 2: No, I'm taking that for life, entering a bar and
Speaker 2: going we're in a hozone.
Speaker 3: That's that's great.
Speaker 1: So then okay, So then the guy who's explaining all
Speaker 1: this to them says, yeah, if he makes a wrong move,
Speaker 1: like he steps into a hoe zone, I'm notified immediately
Speaker 1: to my PDA, And I'm like, lol, very two thousand
Speaker 1: and three. And he just keeps saying how foolproof it is,
Speaker 1: so obviously Benson and Stabler are going to figure out
Speaker 1: how this guy is slipping the slip in the monitor.
Speaker 3: Benson and Stabler are staking out his place. They're chatting.
Speaker 1: They're talking about how they got the lugs from her
Speaker 1: phone and that she got a phone call from a payphone.
Speaker 3: Two stops away from Benny's place.
Speaker 1: So that's like pretty far to go two stops on
Speaker 1: a train to make a call at a payphone. But
Speaker 1: maybe it happened. But then, how did he beat the
Speaker 1: ankle monitor. Maybe he's because he works in an electronics store.
Speaker 1: He has some way of doing it. And then they
Speaker 1: think he's trying to climb out the window. They see
Speaker 1: some you know, they see some movement up by his window,
Speaker 1: and it turns out it's just his cat. And then
Speaker 1: they get an alarm about an unauthorized departure and they
Speaker 1: look up and realize the guy has put his ankle
Speaker 1: monitor around the cat's caller. I don't really know why
Speaker 1: it went off. He's not allowed to go out onto
Speaker 1: his fire escape.
Speaker 3: Maybe not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So now it's not really foolproof when you
Speaker 1: can slip the damp thing off your ankle and put
Speaker 1: it on your cat.
Speaker 3: I guess a note to that other man.
Speaker 2: Has anyone ever been dazzled their ankle monitor? I would
Speaker 2: love to see that.
Speaker 7: The top article is about a woman being fined for
Speaker 7: having done so, so I don't think it's allowed.
Speaker 3: Oh but it's been done. You're not allowed to express
Speaker 3: yourself through your ankle monitor.
Speaker 1: Apparently not well boo. Now they're waiting on a warrant
Speaker 1: for Benny's place, and we found out he was fired
Speaker 1: from the electronic shop after they left because the coworkers
Speaker 1: all freaked out when they found out who he was.
Speaker 1: They're watching his mom's house and Cabot walks in with bangs,
Speaker 1: serious bangs and tells them not to hold their breath.
Speaker 1: She looked at the visitor logs from when he was
Speaker 1: in jail, and in eight years, no one visited him,
Speaker 1: including his mother, not a person, so that's sort of sad.
Speaker 3: He served his time.
Speaker 1: He's not on parole, and this is the first time
Speaker 1: a civil commitment has been released, so he's legally Joe
Speaker 1: citizen and the standards are higher, Like, it's not like
Speaker 1: he's on parole.
Speaker 3: Breaking parole.
Speaker 1: You can kind of get a warrant a lot easier,
Speaker 1: So she says she needs more.
Speaker 3: You need to go back and talk to the doctor.
Speaker 1: And then they get word, as they always do in SVU,
Speaker 1: at just at this exact moment, they get word that
Speaker 1: someone has vandalized doctor Heinz's office. So at her office,
Speaker 1: the place is totally torn up. Her session tapes have
Speaker 1: been for the week have been stolen, and she's defending Benny.
Speaker 1: She's like, he's my biggest success story. He has a
Speaker 1: new life, a healthy relationship, and a good job until
Speaker 1: you persecuted him, and she only they want to know
Speaker 1: about his girlfriend. They're like, oh, he has a relationship,
Speaker 1: like with who? And then she goes, I only know
Speaker 1: her name is Amy, and she'd been encouraging him to
Speaker 1: reconnect with his family. They talk to his brother. His
Speaker 1: brother is not down with the reconnection. He says, Benny
Speaker 1: is an embarrassment. I told him a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: ago to lose my number. I guess also because he
Speaker 1: has teenage daughters and he's worried about.
Speaker 3: Them around his brother.
Speaker 1: And then Benny said that he was dating a nice,
Speaker 1: wholesome girl, a livebrarian.
Speaker 3: So now we're at the library talking to Amy.
Speaker 1: I guess we just found we cross reference to all
Speaker 1: the librarians named Amy, and we found this girl at
Speaker 1: the library. She is like gushing about Benny, celebrating their
Speaker 1: one month and adversary.
Speaker 3: Soon.
Speaker 1: She seems like very giddy talking about him. She's in
Speaker 1: love and she says it's not his fault. Benny had
Speaker 1: an addiction and it's under control now. She's like, we
Speaker 1: have plenty of books about the subject.
Speaker 3: Oops.
Speaker 1: She thinks he's a gambling addict and not a full
Speaker 1: convicted rapist. I also feel like he's very young to
Speaker 1: be getting out of jail for being got on seven
Speaker 1: to eight rapes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but according to all of our research, that seems
Speaker 2: truly perfect. I bet he was like under eighteen, raped
Speaker 2: everyone and then let him out at twenty.
Speaker 1: One, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: because like they I think they said he was in
Speaker 1: there for eight years, and I'm like, for seven to
Speaker 1: eight rapes, and when they thought that he was did
Speaker 1: thirty to forty and he had a literal nickname.
Speaker 3: I feel like, once you have a nickname, you're in
Speaker 3: jail for life. But maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: The du no I bet, yeah, I bet you can
Speaker 2: steal a car and get more time that's true.
Speaker 1: You know, Paul Bernardo's always up for whatever, and he's
Speaker 1: a kenon barbie killer. So they basically tell Amy what
Speaker 1: his real crimes are and she breaks down and she says,
Speaker 1: he's at my apartment. Last night was the first time
Speaker 1: he ever spent the night, so that's why he slipped
Speaker 1: the ankle.
Speaker 3: Monitor.
Speaker 1: Not really sure why he would make that the first night.
Speaker 1: He does that after the cops have been sniffing around him,
Speaker 1: but you know, he made a choice. At Amy's place, Ben,
Speaker 1: he's like cooking her dinner and he's like, hey, babe,
Speaker 1: and the detectives arrive.
Speaker 3: He runs for it. Fin and Munch stop him.
Speaker 1: They went through his bags at Amy's place and they
Speaker 1: find that he took pictures of her sleeping. They found
Speaker 1: a glass cutter, a crowbar, duct tape, essentially a full
Speaker 1: rapist toolkit, and he admits that he does still think
Speaker 1: about it, and.
Speaker 3: That would be on fun shark tank product. A rapist
Speaker 3: tool kit gets you.
Speaker 1: Out of any jam or into any jam. He admits
Speaker 1: he still thinks about offending and it's a constant. But
Speaker 1: he said he didn't buy any of that stuff until
Speaker 1: the cops started hounding him.
Speaker 3: I don't know what that like, you get.
Speaker 1: So stressed out by the cops investigating you that you
Speaker 1: want to reoffend. But I guess maybe that's that's what
Speaker 1: happened in rooftop. So we'll see. He's still claiming he
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with what happened to doctor Heinz.
Speaker 3: And so now Benny is being sent.
Speaker 1: Back to a state hospital, like he's basically going to
Speaker 1: prison because none of the evidence of this break in
Speaker 1: ties him to it, but he is going back to,
Speaker 1: you know, being civilly committed. They find Prince at the
Speaker 1: scene of Robert Logan and so they go to pick
Speaker 1: him up, and there are cops and an ambulance there
Speaker 1: already because Robert has just attempted suicide. And he gets
Speaker 1: brought out on a stretcher and doctor Heinz is there
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 3: Yikes, okay. At the top of act.
Speaker 1: Three, doctor Heinz is like, I he was in crisis.
Speaker 1: I came to his apartment and they're like, what's why,
Speaker 1: what's what the house call? He's the one that attacked you,
Speaker 1: And she said, yeah, I suspected that, And Benson and
Speaker 1: Stabula are like, what is going on? She says he
Speaker 1: had anger issues with her. The last time they saw
Speaker 1: each other the previous Friday, she told him she needed
Speaker 1: to transition him to another therapist, and he became obsessed
Speaker 1: with her, and she suggested maybe he'd see a male therapist.
Speaker 1: Now Huang is talking to Robert, giving him the old
Speaker 1: Huang once over, and he's like, we're in love.
Speaker 3: She's leaving her husband for me. All we do is
Speaker 3: make love in our sessions.
Speaker 1: She initiated all of it and said he stole the
Speaker 1: session tapes so he could hear her voice and it
Speaker 1: hurts when I'm not with her. And they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll where are the tapes And he's like, someone stole
Speaker 1: them from me, and they're like, we just got to
Speaker 1: get those tapes. They prove that she loves me. So
Speaker 1: now we're want we want to find these tapes. I'd
Speaker 1: like to add I do love this actor. He is
Speaker 1: one of my favorites.
Speaker 3: No, he's great scary movie prime I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah and cool you enter SVU with a bloody neck
Speaker 2: on a stretcher.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, way to make a splat.
Speaker 1: Okay, So he says someone stole the tapes and that
Speaker 1: if they find the tapes they'll prove that she loves him,
Speaker 1: Like on the tapes, there's all this stuff about her
Speaker 1: wanting him to get undressed so they can take a
Speaker 1: bath together to suck on her breasts, like all this stuff.
Speaker 1: Hang's like, what happened with the crack house? And He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't remember, I lose time, I have blackouts, I
Speaker 1: enter these fugue states, and the last thing I remember
Speaker 1: is Greta quote unquote breaking up with me. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of convenient that he has memory loss and doesn't
Speaker 1: know whether he did that or not. Doctor Heinz is
Speaker 1: saying it's common for patients to fantasize about their therapist.
Speaker 1: It's called transference. And Robert doesn't deny the attack, he
Speaker 1: just doesn't remember the details. He has a history of
Speaker 1: going into psychogenic fugue states, these disassociative episodes where he
Speaker 1: loses days, weeks, and has no memory of these chunks
Speaker 1: of time. Cabot's not buying the suicide attempt. Apparently he
Speaker 1: sliced the wrong way. Either he's trying to get back
Speaker 1: to the doctor or this is a setup for an
Speaker 1: insanity defense. The attorney is requesting a seven thirty exam
Speaker 1: we'll see if he's competent to stand trial. Wong doubts
Speaker 1: it that they've got to dig into his mental state
Speaker 1: leading up to the crime. Like it's fine if he's
Speaker 1: crazy now, but like you know, So it turns out
Speaker 1: Robert was a student at Hudson you Law School.
Speaker 3: He hasn't been to class in weeks.
Speaker 1: They're talking to again, one of these people that will
Speaker 1: not stop to talk to the cops. She's late, she's late.
Speaker 1: She's got to keep moving to talk to the cops.
Speaker 1: So he made law review and cracked under the pressure,
Speaker 1: and the day his article was due for the law review,
Speaker 1: he disappeared. And then he turned up a week later
Speaker 1: thinking that was the due date, and he freaked out
Speaker 1: when they told him he wasn't going to be published.
Speaker 1: So this woman was like, I actually tried to date Robert.
Speaker 1: He seemed like he needed me. He's an overachiever and
Speaker 1: he had no energy left for sex. He's impotent, okay,
Speaker 1: but like I mean, there's a lot of information about
Speaker 1: this man. She will not stop moving. She has to go.
Speaker 1: And then this girl says he told her she was
Speaker 1: dirty and he cut everyone off. So she thinks that
Speaker 1: the shrink made thing worse, and she's basically sprinting away
Speaker 1: from the detectives and not really quickly. Before she leaves,
Speaker 1: she mentions that he's very close with his sister named Christina.
Speaker 1: So now we're at a methadone clinic talking to his
Speaker 1: sister Christina, and she's telling them what a quack doctor
Speaker 1: heinz is.
Speaker 3: Where I have huge news here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is holding a meth addict and dragging him around.
Speaker 3: And that is Will Miles's brother. This is Will Miles's
Speaker 3: brother's episode.
Speaker 2: Yes, this is James Miles being dragged by the sister.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Well he does a great job at appearing weightless. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean he is a full dead body in her hands, essentially.
Speaker 3: Shout out James and Will Miles.
Speaker 1: Just so you guys know, is a very funny comedian
Speaker 1: and writer who is a mutual friend of ours. So
Speaker 1: that's his brother, and has a very cute daughter, yes,
Speaker 1: exceptionally cute.
Speaker 2: And he's seen me pee in public more than any
Speaker 2: other one of my friends.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting record holder, because I feel like, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the running for that one.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, there's been Like I've definitely pulled over
Speaker 2: while he's been in my car and had to just
Speaker 2: be in the streets.
Speaker 3: So that's another thing Will is very much known for.
Speaker 3: He's great.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Christina grabs James Miles, who is like, you know,
Speaker 1: high on meth, and starts dragging him through the hall
Speaker 1: as she continues talking to Benson and Stable or It's
Speaker 1: one of the wildest like walking talks I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: She's just fully carrying a grown man while she talks.
Speaker 1: She says that she reported doctor Hinz, but Robert said
Speaker 1: that he was helping her and so they dropped the
Speaker 1: case and like it was never investigated, like I think
Speaker 1: she wanted to investigate her from all practice or something.
Speaker 1: She says he couldn't have attacked the doctor because she
Speaker 1: had him admitted to the hospital for a twenty four
Speaker 1: hour hold because he was rambling like a three year
Speaker 1: old at the time of the attack, so she's giving
Speaker 1: him an alibi. Robert was agitated asking for doctor Hinz.
Speaker 1: They couldn't reach her, and he said he'd be fine
Speaker 1: with everything as soon as he saw her, but apparently he.
Speaker 3: Checked out after five hours. AMA against medical advice at the.
Speaker 1: Preescinct, Benson is stable are filling in Kragan and they're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out whether he lured her to this place,
Speaker 1: whether hours before the attack he was in his right mind,
Speaker 1: and then they hear who cares, and we spin around
Speaker 1: and we find Betina Amador civil actions Ada, And I
Speaker 1: just think that this name is funny because the guy
Speaker 1: that came and put electricity in my garage was named Amador,
Speaker 1: and Rosie's never forgotten him, and she constantly goes.
Speaker 3: Where's Amador? Did he bring his tools? Like she always
Speaker 3: asks about him.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Betina Amador looks like a Jersey shore girl
Speaker 1: who went to law school and was like, I can
Speaker 1: be a bit professionally. And she's really like sassy. So
Speaker 1: she says Logan won't go to trial. He's not fit
Speaker 1: to proceed. It doesn't matter how sane he was at
Speaker 1: the time of the attack. They're saying he's looney tunes now,
Speaker 1: and Benson is like he's faking it, and she's acting
Speaker 1: like really bored. She's like, I guess I'll try it,
Speaker 1: Like she's like, okay, I love calling people looney tunes.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if she thought she would come back
Speaker 1: like it is a wild she really goes for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if she was like, this is my moment.
Speaker 3: And then yeah, I looked her up too. I looked
Speaker 3: her up.
Speaker 1: She's I think, on Riverdale and a bunch of other
Speaker 1: things that I nothing I've really watched. But she works
Speaker 1: a lot, and then right before she walks out of
Speaker 1: the room, she goes, might want to spruce it up
Speaker 1: for court. She like fully reads the detectives for filth
Speaker 1: and it's pretty funny. In court, Betina is cross examining
Speaker 1: doctor Vodka, who is another psychiatrist who says Robert is
Speaker 1: delusional and highly agitated. He doesn't even understand the charges
Speaker 1: that are being brought against him, and Betina's like, he
Speaker 1: looks fine to me. And the doctors are like he's
Speaker 1: heavily medicated, and she's like, oh, he's high.
Speaker 3: Like she's very aggressive in the court.
Speaker 2: Well, everyone that thinks he's faking it, it's like, no,
Speaker 2: he's clearly off his rocker, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't understand the suspicions he we see him in
Speaker 2: and he's bleeding from his neck. You know, clearly something
Speaker 2: is not okay. You know, this therapist is asking him
Speaker 2: to suckle her breasts, like.
Speaker 3: Something is up.
Speaker 2: I don't know why they're all like this guy's not
Speaker 2: telling the truth. Like I've never seen a more compelling
Speaker 2: defendant on this show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've seen people fake it before, and it's not
Speaker 1: the same vibe.
Speaker 3: We've seen people faking being crazy on this show.
Speaker 2: And he fully thinks that they are in love and
Speaker 2: this is crazy and he doesn't know what's happening, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know why everyone is suspicious of him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would say losing time, like losing weeks
Speaker 1: before you go on you get your law review thing published,
Speaker 1: Like he's definitely there's a history here of you know,
Speaker 1: mental illness. So Robert is being represented by svu' staple
Speaker 1: Cleoconrad played by Jill Marie Lawrence, iconic defense attorney, and
Speaker 1: then doctor Heinz takes the stand and Bettina asks, are
Speaker 1: you in love with Robert Low? And she says no,
Speaker 1: and that's like really where you can tell? Robert is
Speaker 1: like he's so confused. He's like, what why are you
Speaker 1: saying that? Like he thought she would get on the
Speaker 1: stand and just clear this all up, proclaim her love for.
Speaker 3: Him, and it would all be good.
Speaker 2: And then he gets to do another amazing thing, the
Speaker 2: dream role on SVU.
Speaker 3: He gets to fucking flip out and the course yes completely.
Speaker 1: She says she's never engaged in sexual intercourse with him,
Speaker 1: and he's like, why are you lying? I think this
Speaker 1: is why in my mind I thought maybe she did.
Speaker 3: Have sex with him when I watched this episode in
Speaker 3: the past. I think I thought that she did have
Speaker 3: sex with him, but she didn't. He says, why are
Speaker 3: you lying? Why are you lying?
Speaker 1: And she's like, this is a fantasize relationship. It's projection
Speaker 1: based on transference. Like he's confused the pain and trauma
Speaker 1: of his past with their intimate corrective therapy, and this
Speaker 1: is just too much for Robert fully breaks down, like
Speaker 1: you said, gets up and it's like just tell them
Speaker 1: you love me, like over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: He has to be restrained by Benson and Stabler. So
Speaker 1: now obviously we're at the precinct, and of course a
Speaker 1: judge has deemed him on fit to proceed.
Speaker 3: So there we are with.
Speaker 1: That in walks his sister, being like he's unfit because
Speaker 1: of what this woman did to him. She then has
Speaker 1: a full boom box in her hand and plays them
Speaker 1: a tape of doctor Heins. There's a lot of it's
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, there's still a lot of cassette
Speaker 1: tapes being you know, bandied about in this episode. So
Speaker 1: she plays them a tape of doctor Hines sharing some
Speaker 1: sexy therapy time with Robert. She said she found the
Speaker 1: tapes in Robert's apartment and they're the ones he stole.
Speaker 1: So she found them when she went looking for evidence
Speaker 1: of how this woman was, you know, hurting her brother.
Speaker 1: So now the tapes are creepy. I mean, the tapes
Speaker 1: are creepy. The tapes are her being like, my favorite
Speaker 1: time of the day is when you get out of
Speaker 1: the bath and you're naked and all this stuff. So
Speaker 1: out of context, they do sound incriminating, like they could
Speaker 1: be incriminating, like she's doing something, you know, abusive. Benson
Speaker 1: and Stabler like go to question her. They're playing more
Speaker 1: sexy sound bites from the tape, and she's like, I'm
Speaker 1: a professional, this is my life work. I would never
Speaker 1: do anything inappropriate, And she doubles down on this, reparenting, Uh, yes, but.
Speaker 2: If someone's parents are terrible people, transference could not work,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like you're taking them back
Speaker 2: to this horrific thing, Like what do you think is
Speaker 2: going to happen?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't understand why you can't like reparent them,
Speaker 1: take them back to the time, and then just be
Speaker 1: like I love you, you're my son.
Speaker 3: Like why does it have to be bathtime?
Speaker 2: It could be playing in the sandbox, It could be
Speaker 2: being in a car, it could be going through the
Speaker 2: drive through, Like it makes no sense that it has
Speaker 2: to be a tub. It has to be breastfeeding, Like
Speaker 2: this bitch is twisted, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 2: she could think she's doing something medically.
Speaker 3: But it's like you can take him back to the playground.
Speaker 3: He doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I'm gonna take you back to when you
Speaker 2: pissed your pant, Like why.
Speaker 3: Why can't it just be a fond birthday party? I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe he never had those. Maybe the theory is
Speaker 1: it has.
Speaker 3: To be like the worst worst times of your life.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but he does later talk about some
Speaker 1: traumatic bath stuff, so maybe that's why.
Speaker 3: I really don't know, but it just seems dangerous.
Speaker 2: I'm going to hypnotize you and take you back to
Speaker 2: the most traumatic, awful moments of your childhood where you
Speaker 2: were not able to comprehend what was happening to you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to take you to this dark space and
Speaker 2: then you better behave after.
Speaker 3: It makes no sense.
Speaker 1: I think that's why people think that hypnosis is a
Speaker 1: little bit not reliable too, right, I don't know, because
Speaker 1: you can like event, you can like create memories and stuff.
Speaker 3: I think. But anyway, Taylor.
Speaker 1: Agrees with you. He does not get this. He's like,
Speaker 1: I have four kids, I would never talk to them
Speaker 1: like this. And she's like, I had to regress Robert
Speaker 1: to the point where he was traumatized and give him
Speaker 1: the love he never got. So she talked him through breastfeeding,
Speaker 1: but there was never any contact.
Speaker 3: Like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't unders stand this because most kids don't remember breastfeeding,
Speaker 1: except for Kurt bronell Or, who talks about how he
Speaker 1: does remember being best breastfed and why was he old? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think his mom did it for a while. He
Speaker 1: has a stand up joke about how he remembers doing it,
Speaker 1: and maybe that's not the best memory to have.
Speaker 2: I mean, he turned out fine, but there's got does
Speaker 2: he talk about any of his side effects.
Speaker 3: I don't know that. I just I don't know. Somebody
Speaker 3: just referenced the bit to me the other day. I
Speaker 3: actually haven't heard it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all about accepting all different types of people
Speaker 2: and not mom shaming.
Speaker 3: But nah, that's disgusting.
Speaker 2: If you're someone that wants to breastfeet as your child
Speaker 2: has full blown memories.
Speaker 3: For life, you're a bad person.
Speaker 1: You know, I only made it seven months, so I'm
Speaker 1: not going to argue with you there. Huang says that
Speaker 1: maybe it's counter transference when a therapist develops feelings for
Speaker 1: a patient, but they just want to know did she
Speaker 1: actually have like intercourse with him, and there's no answers
Speaker 1: to that yet. Finn says, no one from the shooting
Speaker 1: gallery can I d Robert?
Speaker 3: No one puts him there. Bad Ass is in the wind.
Speaker 1: Our friend who was at the door named Badass, but
Speaker 1: Finn just tracked him down, and he says when they
Speaker 1: go to to him, he's like, I've seen him before
Speaker 1: passing out needles with this woman, his sister, And so
Speaker 1: it turns so he goes, she was at the shooting
Speaker 1: gallery that night and that I thought it was weird
Speaker 1: because she doesn't usually come by after dark, so now
Speaker 1: dun dundun a twist?
Speaker 3: Why was Christina there?
Speaker 1: We cut to a room at the precinct where Benson
Speaker 1: and Sabler are like double team interrogating Christina. They found
Speaker 1: her prints on the duct tape used to bind doctor Hinz,
Speaker 1: and she basically explains, I went crazy when I found
Speaker 1: the cassette tape. I had lured her to the heroin
Speaker 1: place because I wanted her to feel as low as
Speaker 1: my brother had felt.
Speaker 3: Like to feel like she had fallen so low.
Speaker 1: And then they're like, but she had trauma to her genitals,
Speaker 1: like you sectually assaulted her, and she's like, no, I
Speaker 1: just kicked her as hard as I could between her
Speaker 1: waring legs, so damn. Now, she says she's been watching
Speaker 1: after Robert since they were seven and their mom died
Speaker 1: of cancer.
Speaker 3: She'll go to jail protecting him.
Speaker 1: But if she's going down, doctor Heines is going down too,
Speaker 1: and she insists on pressing charges and Finn has a
Speaker 1: funny line where he says if she freudy and slipped
Speaker 1: it to him, she could do longer than her attacker.
Speaker 1: That's a funny way to talk about a a therapist
Speaker 1: having sex with a patient is getting it Fredi and
Speaker 1: slipped to you. Sorry, I mean it shouldn't happen, but
Speaker 1: it's a funny way to reference it, Olivia.
Speaker 3: They basically figure out that.
Speaker 1: Olivia says, because it's Christina's first offense, she'll do a
Speaker 1: year max. But if the doctor had sex with her
Speaker 1: patient and it's part of all this, she could do
Speaker 1: four years to go to jail for having sex with
Speaker 1: your patients. So why would she do time? Maybe for
Speaker 1: covering it up? Anyway, Robert could be screwed for life
Speaker 1: because he and he's the only one who's like a
Speaker 1: pure victim in this whole thing.
Speaker 3: Well, it's got to be a crime.
Speaker 2: It's not like the guy is on his she like
Speaker 2: does magic spells on him, takes him to being a child,
Speaker 2: and then fox him.
Speaker 3: That seems like a crime. Yeah what I man, Yes, no,
Speaker 3: you're right, that would be.
Speaker 1: I wonder how like they could prosecute that because he's
Speaker 1: like I love.
Speaker 3: Her, we're together, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you can't consent. It's like if a doctor
Speaker 2: fucks of patients. Right, wrong, Yes, no, of course it's wrong.
Speaker 3: Of course.
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering how it could be like prosecuted, but.
Speaker 7: Well, California, it is illegal. Sexual content of any kind
Speaker 7: between a therapist and a client is unethical and illegal
Speaker 7: in the state of California.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: Additionally, with regard.
Speaker 7: To former client, sexual contact within two years after termination
Speaker 7: of therapy is also illegal and unethical.
Speaker 3: Whoa good good, good research, Hannah.
Speaker 1: I literally just was like, I'm sure you would get disbarred,
Speaker 1: orse you lose your license or whatever. I just didn't
Speaker 1: know there was legal implications to it, because people probably
Speaker 1: have affairs with their therapists like all the time that
Speaker 1: are not this.
Speaker 3: Are you thinking of First Wives Club? I don't know,
Speaker 3: am I yeah, maybe Marcia?
Speaker 1: I mean okay, Like if somebody just like was attracted
Speaker 1: the therapist it had sex with them, is that a crime?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the therapist should not do that.
Speaker 2: It is right crime, right, Okay, if a student wants
Speaker 2: to fuck a teacher, it's still a crime.
Speaker 1: No, But a college student can fuck a professor, it's
Speaker 1: not a crime.
Speaker 3: They're adults.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're therapist children, We got it. We'll put
Speaker 2: it on the merch Caro's child.
Speaker 3: I just listen. I am just asking.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone should have any physical contact with
Speaker 1: their therapists.
Speaker 3: I promise.
Speaker 1: Anyway, let's move on from me being maybe into pedophilia.
Speaker 2: Okay, so it wasn't even pedophilia.
Speaker 3: I know you.
Speaker 1: You just you said that I was into be therapists
Speaker 1: having sex with children.
Speaker 3: Oh I did. Yes, Okay, wait, let's get back. I
Speaker 3: don't want to miss this because this is great.
Speaker 1: They're talking about how Robert is the only pure victim
Speaker 1: in all of this, and then Finn goes, that's messed up.
Speaker 3: We found it.
Speaker 1: We found it. I'd been looking everywhere for like specific places.
Speaker 1: I know he said it a few times, but this
Speaker 1: is one place where he says it. Meanwhile, Olivia looks
Speaker 1: up the whole history of the mom who died of
Speaker 1: cancer and turns out she died in a house fire.
Speaker 1: The fire was suspicious because lighter fluid was used as
Speaker 1: an accelerant, and now they're all thinking maybe Robert set
Speaker 1: the fire. So they go talk to doctor Hines. She
Speaker 1: has no clue about the fire, and they tell her
Speaker 1: that Christina was the one that attacked her, and she's like,
Speaker 1: someone has to see Robert immediately, someone has to talk
Speaker 1: him through this.
Speaker 3: His mother was a religious fanatic.
Speaker 1: She would pull him out of bed and make him
Speaker 1: pray for his sins, and so like he really needs to,
Speaker 1: like someone needs to go, like talk him down from this.
Speaker 3: So they send Huang.
Speaker 1: Huong's talking to Robert and he has like a full
Speaker 1: revelatory session with this man, like what sins did your
Speaker 1: mother think you had? And he said I was born
Speaker 1: a boy. Boys are dirty. She would wash him and
Speaker 1: hit him in his genitals. She would tie a string
Speaker 1: around his penis really tight so it would die and
Speaker 1: fall off, and basically Jess was like sex is evil,
Speaker 1: That's what makes men bad. And he's freaking out talking
Speaker 1: to Huong and he's like, I can't talk about it anymore.
Speaker 1: We can't talk about it, and Hung's like, we have
Speaker 1: to talk about the fire. It's a lot of good
Speaker 1: work from Huong here. He just keeps pushing through it.
Speaker 1: And he's like, I was outside when the fire happened.
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, who said it? And he's like,
Speaker 1: I promise I wouldn't tell, and it's who did you promise?
Speaker 1: And he's like Christina, So now we know Christina set
Speaker 1: the fire.
Speaker 3: His sister.
Speaker 1: She did something bad when she was younger, and she
Speaker 1: was sent away, but she came back that night to
Speaker 1: save him. That's what we're going into the final scene knowing.
Speaker 1: So now we're at Riker's and they confront Christina about
Speaker 1: killing her mom, and she's like, my mom threw me
Speaker 1: out when I was fourteen. She didn't approve of the
Speaker 1: guys I was seeing. I never talked to her after that.
Speaker 3: And then they're like, what happened. She's like, I got pregnant.
Speaker 1: My mother nearly beat me to death and left me
Speaker 1: with relatives in Minnesota. And they're like, oh, so you
Speaker 1: came back to save your brother from being abused, and
Speaker 1: she goes, she wasn't abusing my brother.
Speaker 3: She was abusing my son. Twist.
Speaker 1: She tore him out of her arms the day he
Speaker 1: was born, took him in as her own son, and
Speaker 1: then punished him for seven years for the sins that
Speaker 1: Christina had committed in her mind, and she just The
Speaker 1: episode ends with Christina going wouldn't you do the same
Speaker 1: thing for your son?
Speaker 3: Wow? Haunting?
Speaker 2: Yes, very hard, And the people said, don't watch SVU.
Speaker 3: I bet this was fun to hear this fun twist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's like listening to a play on
Speaker 2: the radio or something.
Speaker 3: They don't they don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2: So to those who don't watch SVU at all, fun twist,
Speaker 2: huh makes you want to watch.
Speaker 3: Like our little radio play.
Speaker 1: No, but I am excited to hear you talk about
Speaker 1: the true crime because I don't really know anything about this.
Speaker 2: So the true crime is as elusive or something as
Speaker 2: the episode. We don't know what happens or why. It's
Speaker 2: just that he said, she said bonanza. So this is
Speaker 2: about a psychiatrist named Margaret Bean Bayogue.
Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a wild last name, and it's typhonated.
Speaker 2: And bioge reminds me of like the Korean meat, the
Speaker 2: bogogi or whatever. So she's just like, I don't I'm
Speaker 2: probably gonna call her beans or something throughout the episode.
Speaker 2: So Margaret Bean Baiogue is a Harvard psychiatrist and she
Speaker 2: was accused of sexually abusing one of her patients and
Speaker 2: contributing to his suicide. Yeah, it's sadder than the show.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was like fire and hitting of genitals in
Speaker 2: the show, so this could be neck and neck.
Speaker 3: We don't know. We'll do a poll after what's worse.
Speaker 2: So this case is about her therapy methods and that
Speaker 2: she maybe maybe not became sexually involved with her patient.
Speaker 2: Paul Lozano, who was a Harvard Medical School student.
Speaker 3: A little bit about Paul. He was the.
Speaker 2: Youngest of six kids. He was a high school honor
Speaker 2: student and cross count runner.
Speaker 3: He was like truly a genius.
Speaker 2: There was all this like information about him at three
Speaker 2: years old being able to spell, you know, like everyone
Speaker 2: was like, he's a shining star. I didn't put that
Speaker 2: in because I don't believe when parents think their kids
Speaker 2: can do things. But it was written that he was
Speaker 2: a super They knew he was a genius from age three.
Speaker 2: And then he did go to West Point and he
Speaker 2: hated it. Why would you want.
Speaker 3: To do that?
Speaker 1: My brother went there and did he hate it or
Speaker 1: love it? I don't think he.
Speaker 3: Loved it, But he went into the military. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like homeworks hard enough and now you're
Speaker 2: getting yelled at and having to do physical activity climb lips.
Speaker 1: No, it's like he had a girl, his wife was
Speaker 1: his girlfriend at the time, and like when she came
Speaker 1: to visit him, I don't even think she could go
Speaker 1: to his room, you know, like it's like, I don't
Speaker 1: think they really party or have fun.
Speaker 2: No, there is a Simpsons episode where Lisa and Bart
Speaker 2: go to a military school, and that's funny. It was
Speaker 2: a great episode and like a really it was a
Speaker 2: good one. I love when they become friends at the
Speaker 2: end and you learn about sibling love. But yeah, So
Speaker 2: he hated West Point and then he went to the
Speaker 2: University of Texas, al Paso, and then he went to
Speaker 2: Harvard where he was in a joint MD PhD program.
Speaker 3: Wow, I wonder if he knew Neil bar Okay.
Speaker 2: So then Paul started therapy with doctor ban Bayogue in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six. He was the son of Mexican immigrants,
Speaker 2: and he really became lonely and depressed on campus. You know, Harvard,
Speaker 2: pretty white, pretty not that so I'm sure it can
Speaker 2: feel isolating. So he sought help from this distinguished psychiatrist
Speaker 2: on the Harvard clinical staff, and he just had a
Speaker 2: downward spiral and was repeatedly hospitalized. So up until this
Speaker 2: therapist chilling, and then as soon as he starts working
Speaker 2: with her, it is like constant hospitalizations and problems. And
Speaker 2: then wildly she had a lot of sexual fantasies that
Speaker 2: were handwritten in thousands of pages of notes about him.
Speaker 2: There were tapes, books, gifts exchanged between them, and so
Speaker 2: there's like three thousand pages of handwritten sexual erotica and fantasies.
Speaker 2: With that, the therapist wrote, it's in her handwriting about Paul.
Speaker 2: They were very sato masochistic. And then she also gave
Speaker 2: him flash cards and the cards said really strange things
Speaker 2: on them, and she made him read them over and
Speaker 2: over again until he memorized them and began to believe them.
Speaker 2: So she was just like, memorize them by your heart
Speaker 2: and believe these things. And the cards said like I'm
Speaker 2: your mom, and I love you, you love me very very much,
Speaker 2: stuff like that. So a little bit of brainwashing mommy times.
Speaker 2: So she said that it is only an example of transference,
Speaker 2: which is an accepted technique and not creepy, and that
Speaker 2: it's like just an example of the type of therapy
Speaker 2: she does and transference. We talked about it in the
Speaker 2: episode It's where the patient asked to Madge in the
Speaker 2: therapist as the patient's mother, they take the kids back
Speaker 2: to find out the source of troubling emotions. So doctor
Speaker 2: ban Biogg believed that mister Lozano was sexually and physically
Speaker 2: abused as a child, but the family pediatrician, Thomas Walkins,
Speaker 2: said that he never saw any signs of child abuse
Speaker 2: or emotional problems in this child. And same with like
Speaker 2: all the scoop that he got from family, friends, everyone
Speaker 2: from his life before this doctor said that he was happy, friendly,
Speaker 2: and a well adjusted young man. So he was just
Speaker 2: probably sad because he was like, yeah, in an environment
Speaker 2: where he felt out of his depth and not wasn't
Speaker 2: necessarily like.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so even though everyone in his like pre college,
Speaker 2: pre grad school life is like he was great. She
Speaker 2: said that he tried to kill himself twice as a boy,
Speaker 2: but not one family friend or family member recalls anything
Speaker 2: of the sort. Weird And then okay, so some I'm
Speaker 2: going to preface it before I say anything. From the site,
Speaker 2: I got a bunch of information from Greensboro dot com.
Speaker 3: Is it real? Is it not? I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's just like a collection of articles from North Carolina.
Speaker 2: And I have no idea of the validity.
Speaker 3: Of this website.
Speaker 1: I wonder why they care about this case in Greensboro,
Speaker 1: North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Maybe because of this college, like maybe it had to
Speaker 2: maybe they have a psychiatry program. I have no idea,
Speaker 2: but it was one of the websites, and it says
Speaker 2: that there are discharge papers issued in the fall of
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six after Lasano was treated as an impatient
Speaker 2: at a hospital in suburban Boston. So that's supports that
Speaker 2: their best point of view. So he was like at MacLean,
Speaker 2: which is a psychiatric teaching hospital that's part of Harvard,
Speaker 2: and so there were discharge papers that he did go
Speaker 2: and have problems, But I don't know, So.
Speaker 3: That's that.
Speaker 2: And obviously there's other professionals who think what she was
Speaker 2: doing is wrong and that her type of therapy is
Speaker 2: fucked up and not good. So this isn't like a
Speaker 2: fully accepted form of therapy, even though she says it is.
Speaker 2: And she does deny any sexual involvement with mister Losano.
Speaker 2: He says that she masturbated in front of him and
Speaker 2: slept with him.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: So he killed himself with a large overdose of cocaine
Speaker 2: in April of nineteen ninety one after she stopped treating
Speaker 2: him when he was twenty eight years old. His family
Speaker 2: found his body on April second, nineteen ninety one, and
Speaker 2: he showered and sprayed himself with Kevin Klein cologne. He
Speaker 2: was sitting at his desk with his medical books open,
Speaker 2: and he injected himself with a lethal dose of cocaine.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so he injected it.
Speaker 1: Because when you first said cocaine, I was like, that's
Speaker 1: like a lot of cocaine to like snort to kill yourself.
Speaker 3: But wow, that's a neat yeah. And he obviously knew
Speaker 3: what he was doing.
Speaker 2: And he used an anaesthetic before injecting himself. And a
Speaker 2: Boston area social worker said, basically, this wasn't like a
Speaker 2: drug addict who went back to doing tons of drugs
Speaker 2: and then overdosed accidentally. This was someone that was injecting
Speaker 2: himself to die. So he was doing the cocaine just
Speaker 2: to kill himself. He was not a recreational drug user,
Speaker 2: and there's no way that this was some sort of accident.
Speaker 2: Because of his lifestyle, he chose this as the way
Speaker 2: to kill himself.
Speaker 3: So the therapist.
Speaker 2: Tried to say that he did do drugs and it
Speaker 2: wasn't a suicide, and all his friends were like, now
Speaker 2: you're a fucking liar. So there were journals found with him,
Speaker 2: like in his apartment that the therapists claimed were stolen
Speaker 2: from her office, and that they were private dream fantasies
Speaker 2: about Paul and not like a diary. It's not like
Speaker 2: a journal of what happened, but it was just sexual
Speaker 2: dreams and fantasy she was having about him, which doesn't
Speaker 2: seem good either.
Speaker 1: If you have that book, then you probably should be
Speaker 1: like recusing yourself, right, Like, if you're finding yourself doodling
Speaker 1: about fucking your patient, you should probably be like gotta go.
Speaker 2: Oh, But that's the thing she did, and then he
Speaker 2: killed himself, so it's just tough. But she felt like
Speaker 2: she was being scapegoaded. The case attracted a ton of
Speaker 2: national attention, and there's like a Division of Administrative Law
Speaker 2: Appeals and they're an independent state agency, and they went
Speaker 2: on record to say that they received so many requests
Speaker 2: for press credentials they had to move the hearings to
Speaker 2: a State House auditorium that had a six hundred seat capacity,
Speaker 2: so people really wanted to see what was happening. The
Speaker 2: Medical Board, in regards to the suicide say that her
Speaker 2: failure to conform to the standards of accepted medical practice
Speaker 2: caused harm. She offered to resign her medical license on
Speaker 2: September nineteenth, nineteen ninety two. She did this four days
Speaker 2: before the state Board of Registrations were meeting to present
Speaker 2: evidenced against her that could have led to the loss
Speaker 2: of her license, so she kind of like got out
Speaker 2: of there before she could have gotten kicked out.
Speaker 3: It's a very I quit, you can't find moment, beat
Speaker 3: him to the punch.
Speaker 2: She still believes that even though her methods were unorthodox,
Speaker 2: she really thought it would help him, and she was
Speaker 2: quoted saying this, which I think is weird. She said,
Speaker 2: I thought that it would keep him quiet and alive.
Speaker 2: But it's like, why do you need to keep someone quiet? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's like a that's that's a very strange thing
Speaker 2: for someone that's like committed to your well being and
Speaker 2: thriving in life to say that my goal was to
Speaker 2: keep you quiet and alive like that. I don't That
Speaker 2: is a ding ding ding for me. That's a red flag.
Speaker 2: That's a weird thing to say. It could it have
Speaker 2: been taken out of context, shore, but your goal should
Speaker 2: never be to keep someone quiet, right, So Paul Azano's
Speaker 2: family file the lawsuit against the doctor, charging her with
Speaker 2: malpractice and wrongfull death. Andrew Meyer Junior is a Boston
Speaker 2: attorney who handled this lawsuit, and he said it ended
Speaker 2: in a one million dollars settlement, and Paul's sister confirmed
Speaker 2: that amount. So in the civil case, they got a
Speaker 2: million dollars. According to the Boston law firm, they put
Speaker 2: out a statement for their clients, but it seems like
Speaker 2: just press, so I don't know. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: the law firm said that the Lozano family felt like
Speaker 2: justice was served with her having to resign her license
Speaker 2: and the money settlement, even though there was never an
Speaker 2: admission of guilt. So hopefully that is true and the
Speaker 2: family does find peace in that, and hopefully it's not
Speaker 2: just this law firm trying to get quotes for their website.
Speaker 3: The only statement.
Speaker 2: She's ever made, but it was from Greensboro dot Com.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I just looked it up.
Speaker 7: Very real newspaper, very real for the area of Greensboro,
Speaker 7: North Carolina. It's not the Charlotte Observer is bigger for
Speaker 7: North Carolina, but it is a very legitimated paper.
Speaker 3: If she's from.
Speaker 1: There or he's from there or something like why would
Speaker 1: they give a shit?
Speaker 3: But anyway, go on, Well.
Speaker 2: I'm glad it's real, and maybe they need to invest
Speaker 2: in a new internet maker or website designer because the
Speaker 2: design is out of control.
Speaker 3: I kept trying to Google, like is this real? Is
Speaker 3: this new?
Speaker 2: Like like New York Times, that's a paper, you know,
Speaker 2: the whatever this is?
Speaker 3: Greensboro dot com means nothing.
Speaker 2: Put a paper, a ledger something at the edge of it.
Speaker 2: But I'm glad it's legit. So basically, she's only gone
Speaker 2: on record to have one statement about this case, and
Speaker 2: she said it is unfortunate and tragic that mister Losano
Speaker 2: took an accidental cocaine overdose. So what a bitch, you know,
Speaker 2: like everyone keeps saying, no, it's not accidental. He killed himself,
Speaker 2: and she just refuses. So that's the only statement that
Speaker 2: we have from her. She said that she was abandoned
Speaker 2: by her Harvard colleagues when the scandal broke, and it's like, yeah, duh.
Speaker 2: She said, I deserved a phone call, firing. That I
Speaker 2: was fired with a letter is rude. I deserve respect,
Speaker 2: Like she seems like a narcissist. This really isn't about you.
Speaker 2: You got fired. No one likes you because a person's
Speaker 2: dead and you're a fucking freak with sex journals and
Speaker 2: dreams about your client, like patient. I keep saying client,
Speaker 2: but it's patient.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: She did keep seeing patients though, because of a loophole
Speaker 2: and state law, so she could coach. So that's the
Speaker 2: whole thing with like therapy and psychiatry and all this.
Speaker 2: It's like you can still go on coaching or counseling,
Speaker 2: or if you change your title from psychiatrists to psychotherapist,
Speaker 2: you can keep working.
Speaker 3: So she just can't.
Speaker 1: Prescribe medication, but she can still do all the same
Speaker 1: like stuff she was doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like dangerous and people like this can
Speaker 2: keep on working because I mean, my therapist isn't like
Speaker 2: an MDPHD.
Speaker 3: Person is usually like an LCSW or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can go be a social worker case
Speaker 2: where like you can keep working with patients, which I
Speaker 2: think is pretty messed up. And then there's a psychologist
Speaker 2: named Kenneth Pope, and he wrote a book about therapist
Speaker 2: patient sex stuff, and he estimates that seven to twelve
Speaker 2: percent of male therapists have sex with their patients compared
Speaker 2: to two point five to three percent of female therapists, so.
Speaker 3: This was very rare.
Speaker 2: And she does go on to be like, if I
Speaker 2: was a man, then none of this would happen.
Speaker 3: This is sexism, So that's her.
Speaker 2: And these cases are extra hard on top of all
Speaker 2: the loss and gray matter at all, But these cases
Speaker 2: are extra hard because the defendants are like usually super educated,
Speaker 2: and the accusers usually have a.
Speaker 3: History of psychiatric problems.
Speaker 2: So it just goes to the biases of like that
Speaker 2: we have inside of ourselves, of who we trust and
Speaker 2: who's valuable and not. And so a lot of times
Speaker 2: these cases are hard to through and so that is
Speaker 2: what Mother is based on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and these are people that can abuse the system
Speaker 1: if they choose that's crazy.
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, very educated.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 2: And then also, I don't know, have you seen the
Speaker 2: movie Mother with Debbie Reynolds.
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say the Jennifer Lawrence one. No,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen Debbie Reynolds.
Speaker 2: This came out in nineteen ninety six with like Steve
Speaker 2: Gutenberg or something that Steve Gutenberg. Who's the other one,
Speaker 2: Albert melbrook not mel Brooks's son, is it Albrooks?
Speaker 3: Albert Brooks? Yeah, Yeah, it's Albert Brooks.
Speaker 2: He directed it, he was in it, and I remember
Speaker 2: seeing it in the movie theater. And I have like
Speaker 2: a vivid memory of Orrain Sherbert, Like I don't remember
Speaker 2: the plot or anything, but I remember Orn Sherbert.
Speaker 3: I remember seeing that movie on cable.
Speaker 1: I think, maybe now that you're doing bringing it up,
Speaker 1: but I could not tell you a thing about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, neither can I accept the Sherbert moment. There was
Speaker 2: a Sherbert moment, but it was just a movie I
Speaker 2: saw alone in the movie theater as a child while
Speaker 2: my parents and we're in a different theater.
Speaker 1: They would do that, Oh yeah, just send you to
Speaker 1: a kid movie and they go to the other one.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have to be a kid movie.
Speaker 2: I I talk about this sometimes in my acts, but like, basically,
Speaker 2: my parents didn't care about any sort of ratings that
Speaker 2: didn't occur to them as foreign people. And we went
Speaker 2: to the cheap movie theater a dollar fifty a ticket,
Speaker 2: and it was like older run movies. But we went
Speaker 2: every single week, and they took me the most horrific movies.
Speaker 2: And then finally the movie theater told my parents I
Speaker 2: could not see dead Man walking they go, we've had
Speaker 2: enough of you and your family, like, you're not taking
Speaker 2: her to dead Man Walking?
Speaker 3: Because I had seen Casino in the movie theater.
Speaker 2: With that, I mean, I was seeing wild Anything that
Speaker 2: came out from Speed was my first movie in the
Speaker 2: movie theater with Speed as a child, first grade, you know, like,
Speaker 2: and so my whole life up until high school, I
Speaker 2: didn't go to school dances. We went to the movies
Speaker 2: every week, and then we would go to Domini's and
Speaker 2: by groceries. But anyways, so the theater wouldn't let them
Speaker 2: take me to dead Man Walking, and so then I
Speaker 2: would sit in the lobby and help rip tickets. So
Speaker 2: my parents would go to a movie and the movie
Speaker 2: theater would decide if it was appropriate or not for me,
Speaker 2: and if it wasn't, I would sit with this old
Speaker 2: man and I would sit with him and I'd rip tickets.
Speaker 3: This is so fucking funny. Oh my god. The movie
Speaker 3: theater was just babysitting you. Yeah, I mean, well I
Speaker 3: was doing work. I mean that's true, you were paying
Speaker 3: so you were paying your way my way sown bonkers that.
Speaker 1: I love that so much, and I love that that
Speaker 1: the movie theater was like okay, we draw the line.
Speaker 3: At the death penalty. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so then it started where like we would go
Speaker 2: and then we would just see separate movies.
Speaker 3: So Mother was one of them. I saw that Rocket wasn't.
Speaker 2: Rocketman, wait, the Rocketeer, No, it was Space. It was
Speaker 2: that Paul you know, the actor. He looks comedian. What
Speaker 2: is this comedian's fucking name? He's like a weirdo. I
Speaker 2: was the old, only one in the movie theater. I
Speaker 2: remember that one. But I saw tons of movies like Alone,
Speaker 2: while my parents saw other movies. So it wasn't even
Speaker 2: like child movie, adult movie. It was like if we
Speaker 2: just had different interests, Wow, we would separate.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: We just didn't go to the movie that much as
Speaker 1: a family. I remember us all going to see a
Speaker 1: Sventura Pet Detective, But I don't have many other memories
Speaker 1: of family movies besides that, I would take my brothers
Speaker 1: to go see movies. I would take like all the
Speaker 1: kids to go see movies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was right. It was called Rocketman.
Speaker 2: It came out in fourteen ninety seven, and it was
Speaker 2: with Harlan Williams.
Speaker 3: Who's that You know him? Oh? You know him? Well?
Speaker 1: When you said Rocketman. I only thought of the recent
Speaker 1: Rocketman with oh.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that made me question myself.
Speaker 1: But I was well then I was thinking Rocketeer, because
Speaker 1: that's like a movie from that time, like when you
Speaker 1: were young, like when we were young.
Speaker 3: So I was thinking maybe that was it. But I
Speaker 3: didn't mean to.
Speaker 2: No, I've actually never heard of Rocketeer in my life.
Speaker 3: I think, isn't Jennifer Connolly in that anyway? This is amazing.
Speaker 1: I love but I love you as just a tiny
Speaker 1: child going to see whatever movie by yourself. That's really
Speaker 1: that's really a great I'm having a great visual of
Speaker 1: it right now.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Good to know. I miss all my movie theater friends.
Speaker 3: I wish. I know they're probably all dead. They were
Speaker 3: very elsey that theater still exists. You have to go
Speaker 3: back there. No, it's a shoe carnival.
Speaker 1: Oh maybe you can, like you can like separate pets
Speaker 1: or something and get into the older spirit of working
Speaker 1: your childhood, your child labor days.
Speaker 3: All right, should we get to our interview?
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, we're really excited for our guests today.
Speaker 1: He has been in so many classic movies that have
Speaker 1: been part of our lives, like Scary Movie, Meet The
Speaker 1: Parents Kids, Prime House of Wax. But you guys know
Speaker 1: him from today's episode as Robert Logan. No relation to
Speaker 1: me and my husband. Please check out our chat with
Speaker 1: actor John Abraham's.
Speaker 2: Well, we're obviously going to talk about SVU, your great performance,
Speaker 2: classic episode, but I have to start. Prime is one
Speaker 2: of my favorite movies of all time. I've seen it
Speaker 2: so many times. I like tried quail eggs because of
Speaker 2: that movie. But so I have to ask, how was
Speaker 2: it like throwing pies in people's faces?
Speaker 3: Was that a fun part, It's a.
Speaker 6: Normal occurrence for me. No, it was. It was amazing.
Speaker 5: It was awesome, And I think when I get pied
Speaker 5: at the end, I think we used like a real
Speaker 5: whipped cream pie. Usually in movies they do shaving cream, okay,
Speaker 5: but we use a real whip cream pie. And like
Speaker 5: it's sort of killed pie for me for whipped cream
Speaker 5: for a long time, because, like I could, I had
Speaker 5: like the ghost smell of whipped cream in my nose
Speaker 5: for you know months.
Speaker 2: I just can't believe shaving cream is better than a
Speaker 2: whipped cream.
Speaker 3: Because it's not sticky. I think, got it.
Speaker 6: It's easier to clean off, you know, like it just
Speaker 6: comes right.
Speaker 2: Smart Cara, well sticky you obviously, Well maybe this is
Speaker 2: a good connection.
Speaker 3: You had a lot of blood.
Speaker 2: You had like an amazing scene and mother, yes we
Speaker 2: meet you on a stretcher with blood throat yep, how
Speaker 2: was that for your entrance? And that scene with the
Speaker 2: detectives and your bloody neck.
Speaker 5: Well, it's so funny because I'm sure other guests have
Speaker 5: told you like it's a very kind of like rocket
Speaker 5: fast paste that they shoot at. And so I don't
Speaker 5: remember if that was like my first day, but I
Speaker 5: remember like it was like, okay, come here, like get
Speaker 5: on the stretcher, here's some blood, you know whatever. And
Speaker 5: there's Iced Tea like leaving from shooting another scene and
Speaker 5: you know whatever. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.
Speaker 5: I was like super psyched to see Iced Tea. I
Speaker 5: don't think I have any scenes with him, so, like
Speaker 5: he wasn't around very much. It was like, you know,
Speaker 5: maybe that day I saw him like in the makeup chair,
Speaker 5: and then I saw him like, you know, going home
Speaker 5: after finishing or.
Speaker 6: Something, yeah, taking his mic off you.
Speaker 1: So you didn't have a lot of scenes with Ice,
Speaker 1: but you had a lot of scenes with b D. Wong,
Speaker 1: who we've talked to on the podcast We Love Him.
Speaker 3: Well, how was that?
Speaker 1: I mean, he's so great. I mean you can tell
Speaker 1: us if you feel differently, but.
Speaker 6: No, it was awesome. And like I was super starstruck
Speaker 6: by B. D.
Speaker 5: Wong, like I grew up, you know, seeing him in
Speaker 5: all kinds of things and like loved him. And so
Speaker 5: it was kind of an odd experience, like all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, like here I am working very intimately and
Speaker 5: very close with B. D. Wong, and like, you know,
Speaker 5: I had a couple moments where I was like God, Like,
Speaker 5: life is just so weird. Yeah, here's here's this dude,
Speaker 5: and like five minutes ago I knew him from all
Speaker 5: these movies and now I'm like crying and weeping in
Speaker 5: his lap.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like surreal.
Speaker 2: Well, and a lot of our guests tell us that
Speaker 2: booking SVU felt like a write of passes or like
Speaker 2: a big deal in there life.
Speaker 6: It definitely is.
Speaker 5: I So, I'm from New York City and I grew
Speaker 5: up there, and I started acting from New York City
Speaker 5: and then moved out to Los Angeles when I was
Speaker 5: about twenty five, and so in like ninety eight or
Speaker 5: ninety nine, I mean ninety eight, I did an episode
Speaker 5: of regular Law and Order, which like at the time, yeah,
Speaker 5: that was a right of passage, like if you're a
Speaker 5: New York actor, you've got to be on Law and Orders.
Speaker 5: So I had done that one and that was a
Speaker 5: totally messed up episode. My cat my character's name in
Speaker 5: that episode was Roscoe Johnson, and I was like, I
Speaker 5: was like, you know you sure, Are you sure I'm
Speaker 5: the guy for Roscoe Johnson such a like definitely writer's room.
Speaker 5: They were like, we need a name quick, Roscoe Johnson.
Speaker 3: You know sid you had already moved and then came
Speaker 3: back for SVU or.
Speaker 6: I was, yeah, it was early.
Speaker 5: I was like, I think that episode was I want
Speaker 5: to say two thousand and four or three or yeah,
Speaker 5: maybe five, and I was living in LA And what
Speaker 5: happened is Neil Bear. I had done a pilot for
Speaker 5: Neil Bear years before, like in ninety six or seven,
Speaker 5: for a show called Outreach that was about an outreach
Speaker 5: building on the Venice boardwalk, and it was like all
Speaker 5: the people that work at the outreach and I met
Speaker 5: Neil Bear there and then he just must have liked me.
Speaker 5: I mean, he's a lovely guy. He's super smart and
Speaker 5: very interesting.
Speaker 3: We've had him on our podcast twice.
Speaker 1: We can't get oh awesome making a lot of dreams
Speaker 1: come true for a lot of people.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you're one of them.
Speaker 6: But yeah, he's a genius and super rad.
Speaker 5: And he he called me up, was like, hey, I
Speaker 5: you know I always liked you from Outreach and I
Speaker 5: wonder if you'd be interested in playing this role in
Speaker 5: this episode of SBU and you know, it's it's sort
Speaker 5: of intense and there's this whole thing and I was like,
Speaker 5: of course, I yes, I would love to.
Speaker 1: So so, so, how how did you go about your
Speaker 1: portrayal of this character? Because it really we were talking
Speaker 1: about it like it felt really you know, you could
Speaker 1: have gone full Looney Tunes with it, but you really
Speaker 1: it was a little bit more grounded and understated, Like
Speaker 1: it made it so that you really made it so
Speaker 1: that we didn't know whether this woman had actually done
Speaker 1: something like untoward towards you or whether it was you know,
Speaker 1: part of the therapy, because you definitely had you know,
Speaker 1: your character had psychological issues, but we just felt like
Speaker 1: you played it really grounded and understated and when we're wondering, like,
Speaker 1: you know, what was the.
Speaker 3: Key to that? Like how did you get psyched up
Speaker 3: to do that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 5: So I you know, my approach is always to make
Speaker 5: it real for me, you know, like I have to
Speaker 5: you know, I have to make it real for me.
Speaker 5: And I have to do that by kind of like
Speaker 5: going back through my life and being like, Okay, where
Speaker 5: can I place whatever person to this and make it
Speaker 5: you know, have some sort of sense memory or memory
Speaker 5: from that situation that might lead me to being real
Speaker 5: in these moments.
Speaker 6: I forgot that I flip out in court.
Speaker 3: So it's one of the best scenes.
Speaker 5: I remember Neil being like, yeah, I want you to
Speaker 5: do it and sort of like loosely explaining the plot
Speaker 5: and then like them sending the script and I remember
Speaker 5: being like, oh, like whoa, this isn't like a walk
Speaker 5: in the park at all, Like this is like you know,
Speaker 5: I remember being sort of h yeah, I don't want
Speaker 5: to say nervous. I was like a bit like overwhelmed
Speaker 5: by it, you know. I was like, Okay, this is
Speaker 5: this is a lot of work and it's intense.
Speaker 3: Well you couldn't you couldn't tell you you played it.
Speaker 3: You played it.
Speaker 1: Like as cool as you could as a person going
Speaker 1: through significant mental issue.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, what the thing is is that, like
Speaker 5: I feel like the success of a show like that,
Speaker 5: or even the other law and orders, they are grounded.
Speaker 5: They're not so cartoony, you know, they're not comic book
Speaker 5: court dramas. So I guess that's my approach always is like,
Speaker 5: you know, unless it's called for, don't go the cartoony route,
Speaker 5: and you know, keep it real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so obviously it is very serious subject matter. You're
Speaker 2: in it, you do think it's real. But like when
Speaker 2: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: Like suckling on a breast and stuff, was it hard
Speaker 3: not to laugh?
Speaker 6: Yes, because you're nervous.
Speaker 5: I because like when I'm nervous, like in those situations,
Speaker 5: it's hard not to laugh. But like it's very serious
Speaker 5: when you do those things, like I don't remember it.
Speaker 5: You know, it wasn't a very jokey tone, you know.
Speaker 5: I don't feel like any of the cast members, the
Speaker 5: regular cast members or anybody.
Speaker 6: Around is like.
Speaker 5: You know, like, oh, you know, you have to take
Speaker 5: it seriously, like you have to otherwise you're in trouble.
Speaker 5: And I feel like, you know, there's like if I Remember,
Speaker 5: there's an amazing amount of like technical concern on shows
Speaker 5: like that, and I think that's part of.
Speaker 6: What makes them great, you know.
Speaker 5: And Neil Right has like a medical background and all
Speaker 5: that stuff. It is like a world renowned doctor before
Speaker 5: he wrote right, I think he was the consultant on er. Yeah,
Speaker 5: but like even on the you know, the directing and
Speaker 5: the photography and all that stuff. Like, I feel like
Speaker 5: my memory is that everybody's very focused in their own
Speaker 5: little technical worlds, and so I don't remember a lot
Speaker 5: of like time for joking around.
Speaker 6: It, you know, even to break the ice.
Speaker 5: It's like in that's it, in that in the in
Speaker 5: the context of that episode, you don't really want to
Speaker 5: joke around and break the ice, you know, like that
Speaker 5: could take you too far out of it or lead
Speaker 5: to being cartoony or something.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: It's also interesting you brought up the technical stuff because
Speaker 2: outside the medical the scene with Umbd Wong, like camera wise,
Speaker 2: is very technical. They're doing so much circling. Do you
Speaker 2: remember what it was like to shoot that?
Speaker 6: Yes, I totally remember that.
Speaker 5: Like you know, we again, right, like when you're shooting
Speaker 5: on location on Law and Order, it's very fast case
Speaker 5: because New York City, and it's like these people.
Speaker 6: Don't want them on the block too long.
Speaker 5: They're like film, film your stupid show, and get off
Speaker 5: my block, you know. So, but that was on their
Speaker 5: stages in New Jersey, I think, And uh, I remember
Speaker 5: like spending more time blocking that scene than you do
Speaker 5: normally on a scene on.
Speaker 6: Any television show.
Speaker 5: You know, a lot of times it's like it's pre
Speaker 5: lit and it's ready to go and this and that.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I remember it sort of it felt very
Speaker 6: stage playish.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when we got to that scene, you know, it
Speaker 5: feels very much like a play. And maybe that's credit
Speaker 5: due to bde Wong as well, you know, because he's
Speaker 5: an amazing theater actor.
Speaker 1: So had you watched the show at all before you
Speaker 1: were on it? Like, had you been?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I love Chris Maloney,
Speaker 5: Like look Chris Brady. Yeah, Like there's nobody better than
Speaker 5: Chris Maloney.
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, are you more of a Stabler
Speaker 2: or a Benson person?
Speaker 3: But you you did it before.
Speaker 6: I love both of them. Actually, I love are you person?
Speaker 3: Is that where your Maloney?
Speaker 5: That's where my Maloney started? But I used to see
Speaker 5: him at auditions in New York back then, like in
Speaker 5: the nineties, you know, I started acting in ninety five.
Speaker 6: Like that, So I used to see him at auditions
Speaker 6: all the time.
Speaker 5: I remember seeing him at the audition for American History
Speaker 5: X Wow. Whoa yeah, and and I was like, he
Speaker 5: was so in the zone in the waiting room, Like
Speaker 5: I was like.
Speaker 6: Who's this guy? Like he's so real, and like did
Speaker 6: they just pull this guy? Like he was just so
Speaker 6: in the zone.
Speaker 5: He was like tied in his shoelaces all aggressively and
Speaker 5: like I was like, Oh, this guy's so interesting.
Speaker 6: Uh and so and then I was.
Speaker 5: Like, oh, there's that guy like you know on OZ
Speaker 5: and there's that guy on SVU and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, scary movie. Pivotal moment in culture. I feel for
Speaker 2: sure that changed everything. I remember seeing it with my
Speaker 2: friend's dad in junior high. We were so embarrassed that
Speaker 2: he was with us. But for a while, were you
Speaker 2: known as like the guy that like just a woman
Speaker 2: into the air.
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm still know, I'm still still still still still
Speaker 5: get that all the time.
Speaker 6: Actually, I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3: People approach you and all the time about it on
Speaker 3: the streets.
Speaker 5: When people approach me I would say, like a third
Speaker 5: of the.
Speaker 6: Time, it's it's that right, Like it's that it's but
Speaker 6: they're like, oh, oh, scary movie, and then they look
Speaker 6: at me like, you know.
Speaker 5: Then occasionally I get people that are like, was that real?
Speaker 6: I'm like maybe maybe, maybe, just don't you know, maybe not, dude.
Speaker 5: I lived in Brooklyn at the time when Scary Movie
Speaker 5: came out, and.
Speaker 6: I would walk down the street and like every day
Speaker 6: people but.
Speaker 5: Bobby, oh my god, oh Bobby, Bobby, you live in
Speaker 5: the neighborhood home.
Speaker 6: I got it all the time. So and I loved it.
Speaker 6: I mean, I still love it.
Speaker 5: You know. I'm so proud of that movie, which just
Speaker 5: turned twenty one.
Speaker 6: Wow, that's awesome this week.
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you about the movie Kids.
Speaker 1: Was that your first thing, because you said you started
Speaker 1: in ninety five.
Speaker 3: I feel like the whole cast of Kids.
Speaker 1: Almost was like newly discovered because I remember I grew
Speaker 1: up in Connecticut and Chloe seven you was discovered. She's
Speaker 1: from the town next to mine, and we were all like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, and we wanted to rent that movie
Speaker 1: and it was like a eagle at all of our
Speaker 1: video stores because it was so gritty. So I'm dying
Speaker 1: to hear about your experience on that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So it was like the first thing I was ever in.
Speaker 5: And everybody in the film, nobody was an actor. That
Speaker 5: was by design. They didn't want actors, and you know,
Speaker 5: it's it's about a lot of those people. Some of
Speaker 5: them are playing themselves in the movie, albeit with a
Speaker 5: very you know, well rounded narrative device, which isn't true
Speaker 5: to the real life people. But yeah, and so I
Speaker 5: just you know, I grew up downtown New York City
Speaker 5: and I used to like hang out in Washington Square
Speaker 5: Park and they just like kind of would walk around
Speaker 5: the park and be.
Speaker 6: Like, do you want to audition for this movie?
Speaker 5: And you know, went to open casting calls and like
Speaker 5: with my best friend and we were like, okay, you know, sure,
Speaker 5: why not, and like you know, and and then sure enough,
Speaker 5: they like you know, they cast me, and and.
Speaker 6: It was crazy. And I still didn't want to be
Speaker 6: an actor.
Speaker 5: I wasn't like I was in visual arts and like
Speaker 5: that's what I thought I was going to go to
Speaker 5: college for and all that stuff. I did not want
Speaker 5: to be a professional actor. It just wasn't the direction
Speaker 5: I was going to take.
Speaker 6: That switch. The switch was a couple of things.
Speaker 5: The switch was I took an improv class in high
Speaker 5: school and that really, like ch opened the doors for me.
Speaker 6: So I was into it creatively, I was into acting.
Speaker 5: I just it wasn't the life path I thought I
Speaker 5: wanted for myself, you know, I.
Speaker 6: Didn't want to do that.
Speaker 5: Then after Kids came out in ninety five, I got
Speaker 5: an agent, like an agent called me and was like, hey,
Speaker 5: I saw you in this movie. You know, do you
Speaker 5: want to try this out? And I was like no,
Speaker 5: and I.
Speaker 6: Hung a quod and then he called me back. He
Speaker 6: called me back and.
Speaker 5: Was like no, no, I'm a real person, like I'm not
Speaker 5: you know, I'm not a sleezbag, like I'm serious. And
Speaker 5: I was like, oh right, well I'll try sure. And
Speaker 5: then I got dead Man Walking. I was in dead
Speaker 5: Man Walking. I played Sean Penn's brother, and that was
Speaker 5: just like a crazy, amazing experience for me. And I
Speaker 5: was like, oh, well, you know, this door is opening
Speaker 5: for me. And I really do love movies. I always
Speaker 5: wanted to work on movies that just maybe not as
Speaker 5: an actor, and so I was like I should follow
Speaker 5: this through and there you go and then I was
Speaker 5: off and running.
Speaker 1: Well disclaimer to our listeners, it doesn't always work out
Speaker 1: that way. So some of the approaches you in Washington
Speaker 1: Square Park just you know, use your judgment. Well, so
Speaker 1: we were obviously, you know, stalking or IMDb before we
Speaker 1: came to talk to you, and we wanted to know
Speaker 1: about Clover, which is a movie you starred in and directed.
Speaker 6: Correct, Yeah, story, Yeah.
Speaker 3: What's it all about? Where can people see it?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 5: I think you can see it on Amazon now, it's
Speaker 5: on Amazon Prime. And uh, it's my second directorial feature.
Speaker 5: So I've I've I've trademarked Crimty. It's a crimety.
Speaker 3: Have you trademarked it?
Speaker 6: I have trademarked that.
Speaker 3: Wow. Cool, you really did?
Speaker 6: I really?
Speaker 2: Oh well, I'm I'm a Shark Tank person. So I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is great, good.
Speaker 6: For you, but I'm in the process of it. How
Speaker 6: about that?
Speaker 5: So yeah, Crimety trademark copyright twenty.
Speaker 1: And I'm noticing that both of your movies star Erica Christiansen.
Speaker 6: We're talking, No, you're not.
Speaker 3: She Yeah, she's in season nine.
Speaker 2: She's in a She's a fucked up FBI agent who
Speaker 2: ends up killing herself in front of Benson.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, So that's like my that's like my sister.
Speaker 6: Oh really, Oh wow, Yeah, it's like my sister. What
Speaker 6: a funny coincidence. Yeah, Eric is Eric is the homie
Speaker 6: for life.
Speaker 3: Oh amazing. Did you guys meet just working on stuff
Speaker 3: for auditions.
Speaker 5: Or I think we just met like in the early
Speaker 5: two thousdands, like like we had the same circle of friends,
Speaker 5: and you know, we just became friends. And I have
Speaker 5: a very tight knit group of friends, and we all
Speaker 5: I try to work with as many of my friends
Speaker 5: as I can, certainly when I'm directing movies.
Speaker 3: Well, didn't the same guy write the two movies you directed? Are? Now?
Speaker 5: That's correct, that's like and that's one of my best friends,
Speaker 5: and you know, very very talented guy, Michael Testone. So yeah,
Speaker 5: so he you know, he wrote the first two and
Speaker 5: uh and yeah, and it's it's great. There's a lot
Speaker 5: of great actors in it. You got Ron Perlman, Chas
Speaker 5: Palm and Terry, Jessica Zor. Yeah to Sheena Arnold, I
Speaker 5: could keep going, Mark Weber, Nicole, Elizabeth Berger. I mean
Speaker 5: there's it's a great cast. It's a big, great cast.
Speaker 5: Do you like director goodman.
Speaker 6: I love it. I love it very much.
Speaker 5: And uh, it's more encompassing of my sort of creative
Speaker 5: interests than just acting alone, So I like it for
Speaker 5: that reason.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was so fun. He was fun to talk to.
Speaker 2: Also, I can't believe that dead Man Walking got two
Speaker 2: shout outs to this episode.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm just saying.
Speaker 2: And that best friend that he knew Erica and yeah,
Speaker 2: like loving each other.
Speaker 3: They're for real, for real friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you never know in this you know, everyone's like,
Speaker 2: oh I know this person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone's friends in Hollywood.
Speaker 6: Baby.
Speaker 2: Oh that's actually another thing for my birthday. We went
Speaker 2: up to the roof of the hotel to have some
Speaker 2: drinks and the desk people have to let you up
Speaker 2: into the special elevator and they go, oh, are you
Speaker 2: here for the comedy show?
Speaker 3: And there was a comedy show on the roofs Oh,
Speaker 3: my god, did you know anyone?
Speaker 2: Well, a guy was actually extra familiar, but then kept
Speaker 2: calling me Liza.
Speaker 3: So it was very fun.
Speaker 2: But yeah, sou but that was a very very thrilling
Speaker 2: interview and a very fucked up case. And she didn't
Speaker 2: seem apologetic in any way, and yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I think what we've learned is that I'm not
Speaker 1: positive that having SO with your therapist is illegal.
Speaker 3: No, just getting a shivial legal and shavial legal. I
Speaker 3: was just curious.
Speaker 1: I think we learned that, Yeah, if you feel like
Speaker 1: you're having some sexual feelings toward your therapist or anything,
Speaker 1: that's I think that's okay.
Speaker 3: Just get a new therapist.
Speaker 2: Because you're not going to be fully honest with them
Speaker 2: and tell them what's up. It's kind of when Charlotte
Speaker 2: and Sex and the City gets an ugly divorce because
Speaker 2: she wanted to get and then you know they've got married.
Speaker 2: But it was very cute. Is there sex in the
Speaker 2: City news? They're just working? Yeah, they're just working.
Speaker 3: It didn't help, but no, and all at want what
Speaker 3: was it called? Just like just like that, just like
Speaker 3: just like that.
Speaker 1: Just I'm wondering who we're going to know, like New
Speaker 1: York actor friends that are going to get little pop
Speaker 1: up parts.
Speaker 2: I mean, usually I keep jealousy in check, but that
Speaker 2: might be tough for me.
Speaker 3: That might be tough. If I see some damn bitch
Speaker 3: that I don't like in there, I might I won't do.
Speaker 2: Anything I'll I don't want to do anything about I'll
Speaker 2: be happy everyone's working.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I keep thinking of things I did. No,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess just I saw Cat Collin's show this
Speaker 2: past weekend, and she's a great performer.
Speaker 3: But she's in the Sex and the City show. I'll
Speaker 3: killer it's completely possible and she will be. Oh, she
Speaker 3: will be. I guess.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like I think our only post mortem what we've learned
Speaker 1: from this episode is yeah, like, uh, oh, don't I
Speaker 1: mean this go. We can't go into the full Texas
Speaker 1: abortion band shit, but like, don't shame your fucking daughter
Speaker 1: for getting pregnant and rip her child away and raise
Speaker 1: him as your own and try to cut his dick
Speaker 1: off with a piece of string.
Speaker 3: What the fuck?
Speaker 2: I know? These anti abortion bullshit things that are happening.
Speaker 2: It's like I just saw a post that was like
Speaker 2: God gave up his son. I think he's okay with abortion,
Speaker 2: but the hoops they go to where it's like God
Speaker 2: wouldn't want this unborn baby something kill. But if someone
Speaker 2: rapes you have to give birth to the thing. It
Speaker 2: just makes no sense, like that your God is wanting
Speaker 2: children to get I don't get.
Speaker 1: Know and your God wants children like in their own
Speaker 1: filth at the border and and being mistreated there, Like
Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, no one cares about these children
Speaker 1: once they're born.
Speaker 2: And anti anti what's pissing me off the most is
Speaker 2: people equating masks usage to force labor and pregnancy.
Speaker 3: It's like these are different. Store is a lot chiller.
Speaker 1: You can't get pregnant from somebody sneezing near you, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, It's just it's a totally different fucking thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, this is a public health Like, let's all
Speaker 1: work together, not invading someone's bodily autonomy.
Speaker 2: Maybe if you wanted to, I don't abuse the grand
Speaker 2: kid and kick your daughter out. Don't be a bad parent,
Speaker 2: well I have kids, if you're gonna be a bad parent.
Speaker 1: But if you listen to our podcast and you don't
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram, please go check out our Instagram
Speaker 1: because we did post like, uh, I believe fifteen different
Speaker 1: abortion uh pro abortion funds that you can donate to
Speaker 1: in Texas and help those people.
Speaker 3: And then you said that in Instagram. Fucking took it down.
Speaker 1: They took down their original posts because I had shared it.
Speaker 1: In stories, and I was like, oh okay, and now
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it in the grid bitches, and.
Speaker 2: I just what is what is Instagram doing that they're
Speaker 2: taking it off?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what. That's like a super crazy.
Speaker 1: Then it popped back up like they wrote me about it,
Speaker 1: and we're like they wrote about him.
Speaker 3: We're like, this is fucked up, and they were like,
Speaker 3: thank you for supporting us.
Speaker 2: So I like, well, because that's the whole shadow band thing,
Speaker 2: where like people the people that harp the most about
Speaker 2: like cancel culture, actually people are being shadow band and
Speaker 2: hidden constantly. Yeah like uh not, and you guys don't
Speaker 2: care about that cancel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like yeah, exactly because it happens a lot
Speaker 3: of sex workers and people that talk about race.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're right away where conversations get shadow bands.
Speaker 2: But even our girl Carly, you know, she draws naked
Speaker 2: women sometimes and she like I legit have to sometimes
Speaker 2: go look for her stuff because it keeps high, Like
Speaker 2: I have to be like, oh fuck, they really are hardy,
Speaker 2: Like I go out of my way to go like
Speaker 2: an engage with her age.
Speaker 3: So that yeah, so lame, you gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: But back to this episode, well, Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3: What is it? H highway? There was like a term
Speaker 3: for heroin that I didn't know.
Speaker 1: Oh, shooting, shooting, shooting gallery, shooting gallery.
Speaker 3: That sounds like art, Like I didn't get it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I like photography, shooting gallery. H heroin?
Speaker 2: Un over who those boys looked so casual? Who casually
Speaker 2: does heroin on a win like that? Like, Oh, we're
Speaker 2: in New York.
Speaker 3: Let's do find some heroin? Yeah heroin? Where were they
Speaker 3: going to go back to the Double Tree in Times
Speaker 3: Square to shoot up some heroin? It's kind of anyway.
Speaker 1: Nobody do heroin or cocaine right now until we get
Speaker 1: this ventanyl situation under control. That's another fucking not even
Speaker 1: a post mortem, just a public I'm not judging anybody's
Speaker 1: drug use or party habits, but just until get those
Speaker 1: test strips where you can test it or it's just
Speaker 1: really sad. There's been that actor from the Wire, Omar
Speaker 1: from the Wire, Michael K. Williams is his name. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then we know some comedian I mean we don't
Speaker 1: I don't know, but we know of these comedians who
Speaker 1: in the hospitalassed away and one's in the hospital.
Speaker 3: It's really fucked and you know the fentanel. I don't
Speaker 3: know exactly what it is. I'll tell you what it is.
Speaker 3: What is it? It's I took it. I took it.
Speaker 1: They gave it to me for Rosie when I was
Speaker 1: giving birth, and it was great. When you're using, when
Speaker 1: it's being measured out by adoptor, it feels amazing because
Speaker 1: it's like a it's for medicine. It's for like aniseptic anesthetic,
Speaker 1: like whatever use is like to So I wasn't feeling
Speaker 1: the pain of my contractions basically. But if it's in
Speaker 1: these drugs like laced and stuff, one one line can
Speaker 1: kill you.
Speaker 3: But what who's putting it in that? That's what I
Speaker 3: want to know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, if I'm a drug dealer, do I want
Speaker 1: word on the street being my clients are all dying?
Speaker 3: Like, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1: People are saying, oh, because it'll like if you have
Speaker 1: cheap if you have cheap product, it'll make the high
Speaker 1: better and stuff.
Speaker 3: But if it's it's not worth it.
Speaker 1: If it's killing people, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: you can't measure it out the right way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, another drug thing.
Speaker 2: Is like that family they want some lawsuit that they
Speaker 2: can ever be charged with any opioid death.
Speaker 1: Seven the fucking the Purdue Pharma people. Yeah, yeah, crazy.
Speaker 1: I watched that on John Oliver. Yeah, it's just too much.
Speaker 2: It's too much, like thinking about I was trying to
Speaker 2: avoid stuff because at a certain point it's just like fuck.
Speaker 1: But I did read that the drug dealers who supplied
Speaker 1: mac Miller with the drugs that killed him, they were prosecuted.
Speaker 1: So and I have a friend actually who just told
Speaker 1: me that her cousin just died of an opioid over
Speaker 1: like a overdose this summer and her parents, his parents
Speaker 1: were like one of them was like, we're gonna find
Speaker 1: the guys. We're gonna find the guys, and the mom
Speaker 1: was like, what is it. It not going to bring
Speaker 1: him back, Like, you know, it's just so fucking tragic
Speaker 1: it is, you know.
Speaker 3: Anyway, Let's get to what.
Speaker 1: Would Sister Peg Do? Because that makes me feel like
Speaker 1: at least we can help people a little bit. This
Speaker 1: week's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly
Speaker 1: segment where we give you guys a link or point
Speaker 1: you in the direction of some more information or an
Speaker 1: organization that can help you with learn more about the
Speaker 1: top that we talked about today, and since today we
Speaker 1: spoke a little bit about therapy and some of the
Speaker 1: you know, the sketchy areas of therapy, we wanted to
Speaker 1: highlight the Therapy Exploitation Link Line, which is www dot
Speaker 1: therapyabuse dot org and the acronym is tl SO. TELL
Speaker 1: is a peer support network that seeks to help victims
Speaker 1: and survivors of exploitation by psychotherapists and other healthcare providers
Speaker 1: find the resources they need to understand what's happened to
Speaker 1: them and to heal. So if you or know anyone,
Speaker 1: or you are someone who feels like you've been exploited
Speaker 1: or abused by your therapists, please check out Therapy Abuse
Speaker 1: dot org and their website has a ton of information
Speaker 1: like resources, networking, professional support.
Speaker 3: And thank you for that, Karen. You're welcome.
Speaker 2: And next week's episode will be the book of Esther
Speaker 2: Season nineteen, episode twenty.
Speaker 3: Several people have asked for this baby, so here we
Speaker 3: are with the goods.
Speaker 2: I'm very happy and you know watching on Hulu Peacox.
Speaker 2: Spend some cash somewhere to the library, a lot.
Speaker 3: Of options options. Oh, I was staying at a friend's
Speaker 3: house and this was so weird. The Hulu it.
Speaker 2: Was on auto play, but it would play what anything else?
Speaker 2: So I was watching drag Race obviously, and it would
Speaker 2: just play This is Us, like it just decides whatever
Speaker 2: it wants, We'll come on next.
Speaker 3: It wasn't the next episode of the show you watched.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: I don't know how they do it. Yeah, they want
Speaker 1: you to get sucked into a different show. They're like,
Speaker 1: you might like melodrama, here's this is Us.
Speaker 2: Honestly, what I can't wait for is Joel Kim Booster's.
Speaker 3: Fire Island movie on Hulu. I can't wait so good.
Speaker 3: I'm like, can you guys get them? I need it.
Speaker 1: I know he's like partying in his stories. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this looks so good. Truly, every time I've watched his stories,
Speaker 1: every summer of him in Fire Island, I've been like,
Speaker 1: I want to be there. So now I'm going to
Speaker 1: be there when I watch the movie.
Speaker 3: It's great.
Speaker 2: And they he posted a photo and it was with
Speaker 2: Margaret Chow and they were all at the beach and
Speaker 2: she is more tatted.
Speaker 3: Than I knew. Oh yes, she's all sleeved up. I
Speaker 3: didn't know that well, I knew, but I didn't know.
Speaker 3: Her whole stomach was Oh really Yeah, I was excited.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Go check out Joelkimbooster's instagram if you want to see
Speaker 2: Margaret sinc.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, thank you for being here for this chaotic energy.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed the app and we appreciate you more.
Speaker 3: Than you know. Thanks for listening. Guys, see you next week.
Speaker 3: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klink and at Glittercheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our
Speaker 2: incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, to Harley
Speaker 1: Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers
Speaker 1: Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at exactly
Speaker 1: Right Media.
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
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Speaker 3: Done