1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of the Warning. As you can 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: tell from my location and the setting behind me, I'm 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: not in my usual spot. I joked around, maybe people 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: would think I'm scouting out safehouses anticipating in Trump victory, 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: but we're not quite there yet. Anyway, I'm pleased today 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: to be joined by John Miller, who was the head 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: of NBC television marketing and amongst a long career, one 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: of the things that John did has talked about is 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: launch The Apprentice, the marketing for the television show, which 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: some say is the vehicle that Trump used to become 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: a credible presidential candidate. At the end of the day, 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure, but John has publicly talked about 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: his bad feelings and guilt over all of this. I 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: thought we'd have we'd have a conversation about it today. 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: John, welcome, Thank you very much. And you do look 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: like you're in a bunker. So whether it's whether it's 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: real or not, that's that's pretty good good planning. 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: I'd say I'm in a undisclosed location me too. Donald 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Trump is threatening to pull the license of CBS News, 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: and the crowd cheers behind him. You launched the Apprentice. 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: It was a television program. Everyone is familiar with it. 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: You have some guilt. I don't think you should, and 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: I guess we'll talk about that. But so you talk 24 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,919 Speaker 1: about what you did in your your your career in television, 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: just real quickly that that led up to it, and 26 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: and how you think it ties in here. 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: Well, my crew and television, the more positive pieces of that. 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: I created Mussy Team and TV and launched Donald those 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: shows that were on those Thursday night lineups. My first 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: year in marketing, we launched the Cosby Show, Miami Vice, 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: uh uh Hiway to Heaven, a hundred bunch of other 32 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: things and took me all the way through the West 33 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: Wing and everything else. So I launched it and did 34 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: twelve Olympics and five Super Bowls and said that a big, 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: big career. But the Apprentice was one of those things 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: where we created a false narrative about Donald Trump. The 37 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: idea was the ultimate job interview. You don't win a date, 38 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: you win a career, and the in order to make 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: that work, you had to have the apprentice be partner 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: or mentored by a legitimate businessman. Now, Trump was selected 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: largely because he had time said yes. A couple of 42 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: CEO said no and so, and he loved the He 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: loved being seen, he loved the adoration, he loved the filming, 44 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 2: and I think he loved almost a lot about it 45 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: because he was he was the star and created a 46 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: narrative that he always sort of wanted to see for himself. 47 00:02:53,960 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: Limousines and helicopters and gilded palaces and smart ideas, but 48 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 2: none of that was really apparent, and the producers of 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: the show. I had the marketing, but the producers of 50 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 2: the show often had to sort of strangely manipulate things 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: in order to make him look like he was knowing 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: what he was doing. But that was sort of the 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: conceit of the show that this great businessman was going 54 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: to provide a year long mentorship and two hundred and 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars salary to someone who won that prize, 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: and so wasn't a date, it was a career that 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: again was also a bit of a that's how it 58 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: was marketed. And he did get the first. Everybody the 59 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: one did get the two hundred fifty thousand dollars. Did 60 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: they ever get a mentorship with Donald Trump? No, And 61 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: that was sort of was dropped after season one kind of, 62 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: but we were pushing the narrative that he was a 63 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: legitimate businessman all that time and right now. The reason 64 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: I came forward as is, up until twenty twenty two 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: when I returned, I was a senior executive of the company, 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: and it was probably inappropriate for me to create a 67 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: largely partisan messages which is this is. But ultimately I 68 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: figured I had to come forward before it was too 69 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: late to let people know that the narrative that we 70 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: created rather relentlessly and beamed into American TV homes over 71 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: and over again, that he is not a legitimate businessman. 72 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: He is sort of what you see on display, unhinged, 73 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: a little wacky. Once publicity has a compliment whole that 74 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: cannot be filled, is inappropriate in many ways, has racist 75 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 2: tendencies that I could share a story with on and 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: all of those things I wanted to say, and then 77 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: most specifically as the economy and how people felt he 78 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: would do the economy seems to be one of the 79 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: leading things that may be undecided or still sort of 80 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: wrestling with. I wanted to say that he really is 81 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: not very good at that he's been bankrupt four of 82 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: his companies, while before the Apprentice too while he was 83 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: doing The Apprentice, So it's six bankruptcies under his belt. 84 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that more worried about his belts than 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: he is about running for president. And as a result 86 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: of that, I wanted to let people know that he 87 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: was never a great businessman. That was a TV illusion. 88 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: And if you're thinking that he is somehow going to 89 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: make economy better, then maybe I better say something before 90 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: it's too late. So I've talked plenty of time. Let 91 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: me throw you in as a question here. 92 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: When I listened to you talk about this, what strikes 93 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: me is your seriousness and your earnestness about that, Hey, 94 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: we did this, we marketed something that wasn't real. But 95 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: do you think that anybody watched The Apprentice and thought 96 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: it was on the level that Trump was a legitimate businessman, 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: Because I think you're putting a lot of weight on 98 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: your shoulders with regard to something that, despite the name 99 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: of the genre, and you look at it from a perspective, 100 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna I'll address my innate small C conservatism 101 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: here right it is. Eighteen eighty three is a great example. 102 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: If you were coming across the Western plains, a lot 103 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: of people didn't make it. If you lacked common sense, 104 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: if you lack good judgment, you just didn't make it. 105 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: And so I still grew up in an era at 106 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: age fifty four where it was impressed upon me as 107 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: a young man that no one owes you anything, and 108 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: two common sense is an important virtue. So I grew 109 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: up in northern New Jersey where Donald Trump entered my 110 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: frontal lobe and thus consciousness. Sometime in the early nineteen eighties. 111 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: They call it eighty one, call it eighty two, right 112 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: whenever the art of the deal is in the book 113 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: and all of that and all of that later. Do 114 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: you think that Donald Trump is a con or do 115 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: you think he's a reflection of some type of id 116 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: that runs through the blood of the American the American people. 117 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: The one thing that I have a hard time with 118 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: when we talk about Trump is the notion that there's 119 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: any surprise about Trump. 120 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,559 Speaker 2: Well, there's a number of questions there. First of all, 121 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: I would say that he will say and do whatever 122 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: he can or wants to in order to get what 123 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: he wants to. And also he will then repeat it 124 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: over and over again. So I find it he's been 125 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: sort of a phony in that particular way. In some ways, 126 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: he's very clear. I want to go back to one 127 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: thing that you said about I'm trying to remember, so 128 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: the number of those things about Trump and do I 129 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: do I think that people feel that it's going to 130 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: make any difference about what we did with The Apprentice, 131 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: And in that way, I have heard on a number 132 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: of occasions people say, well, I know he's a legitimate 133 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: business man because I saw him do it. It was 134 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: in Maggie Haberman's book that she wrote about him. There 135 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: have been other people that said that, oh, well, he 136 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: did The Apprentice and so he is a good businessman. 137 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that people think this nearly as much 138 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: as you and I do, and they may not pay attention. 139 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: Everybody has busy lives, so the impressions that The Apprentice 140 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: the show gave. But more importantly what I have said 141 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: that I'm responsible for is way more people see the 142 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: promos than see the show. And so in Little thirty 143 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 2: Second for a number of years, fourteen seasons with probably 144 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: rappen about seven years or so, because there's two seasons 145 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: a year that he was a legitimate businessman. Because that 146 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: was the conceit of the show, and he's an entertainer somewhat, 147 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: but he's mostly had the idea that he was a 148 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: legitimate businessman, and so I wanted to make sure that 149 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: people knew that that was largely a television creation, and 150 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: in the case of a marketing standpoint, it was a 151 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: marketing amplification of that sort of narrative that was largely 152 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: put together for the Tellivision show. Now, as it relates 153 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: to the American publican, do they think that they're smart? 154 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: I think an awful lot of people don't pay a 155 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: ton of attention. Are you familiar with the XFL, which 156 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: is the first version of the thing that combination between 157 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: NBC and Okay, Well, I was also responsible for marketing 158 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: the XFL. There was no there there, but yet we 159 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: got ratings that were higher than the Super Bowl for 160 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: the first time because we had positioned it in a 161 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: certain way. So would American believe that somehow there's going 162 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: to be something special between the WWE and football put 163 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: together to create something special. Yes, they believed it for 164 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 2: a week and then they saw it and it wasn't true. 165 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 2: In the case of Donald Trump, his was always a 166 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: parent all the time, and he sort of reinforced all 167 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: the time that he was a legitimate businessman for years 168 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: and years, and so do people still think that or 169 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: do they think that he's he is what you see 170 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: as such a fool that you could not possibly believe that. Well, 171 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: clearly would you look at the polls. Some people still 172 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: believe it. And I wanted to say that if you 173 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: think that he is legitimate because of the Apprentice and 174 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: or the work that we did, that is absolutely false. 175 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 2: It was a creation and something that I regret. 176 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: Did you deal with Trump directly? Yeahs you were dealing 177 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: as you're doing this on the show. 178 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: Yes, I had directions with him. Now because of the 179 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: people who did the show dealt way more directly with 180 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: him than I did. But I had to get him 181 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: to do his promos. I had to get him to 182 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: come to certain things. He would because he knew that 183 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: I knew ratings and dealt with ratings and awful lot. 184 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: He would call me a Friday morning in the early 185 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: days of the show, not for all years, and we 186 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: would talk about how the show did. And in truth, 187 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: the show was number one for the week one time, 188 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: which was the finale of the first season. After that, 189 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: it was never number one. Did well we made a 190 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: lot of money at NBC on it, but it was 191 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 2: number one one time. And so he would always when 192 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: he would call, I say number one show on television, 193 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: to which I would say we did very well, and 194 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: he would say number one show on television. Now I 195 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: was on the West coast, he was on the East coast. 196 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: He had probably seen the ratings about three hours before 197 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: even I got them. He'd probably talked to people well beforehand. 198 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: I was probably his fifth call the day, but he 199 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: still said number one show on television. And I would 200 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 2: try to correct him with the ratings, and that didn't matter. 201 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: And I begin saying, well, is he just not paying 202 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: any attention or does he just say what he wants 203 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: to say? And turns out that yes. He will say 204 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: something in over and over and over again, hoping that 205 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: people will eventually think that it's real. He would even 206 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: do that at the press tour to TV critics who 207 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: ratings were their job, and they would just laugh at 208 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 2: him because he would just say that, and but he 209 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: would undeterred. He would continue saying it over and over again. 210 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: He said, you must be looking at the wrong ratings. Well, 211 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: there's only one ratings, so that's the way I looked 212 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: at him. The other part that I dealt with him 213 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 2: because we would talk regularly and I would see him 214 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: at these the press events, and I also had my 215 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: people work with him because we were out in LA 216 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: and then we would go to New York to shoot. 217 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: But I will say one story at the end of 218 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: the wrap party of the third season and the way 219 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: that the show worked that there were two teams that 220 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: would go against each other, and first time it was 221 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: men versus women, and then they divide it up a 222 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: little bit, so men versus women on a man and 223 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: woman switched sides, and then season three was books Smart 224 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: versus Streetsmart. It just sort of to create an interest. 225 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: So he came with me at the wrap party and said, John, 226 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: Johnny got a great idea for season four. I said, okay, Don, 227 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: what is it? Black versus White? 228 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah? 229 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: No, that was that was That was That should have 230 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: been my reaction. But you can imagine that you don't say, 231 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: what are you crazy? To him? So in a n antosecond, 232 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: I said, well, I can understand why you think that 233 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: would be a big idea. Everybody would be talking about that. 234 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: There'd be hold on, wait, let me, let me let me, 235 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: just come up, why not doubt? 236 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: Why? 237 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: Why not? 238 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: Why not? 239 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: What would have happened if you were if you just 240 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: said that's crazy? 241 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: Okay? Well so this, this is what would have happened, 242 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: and what I told him, And this was the real part. 243 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: He'd made most of his money off of the integrations 244 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: that appeared within the show. These two teams of apprentices 245 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: would be figuring out how to market a toothpaste, or 246 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: how to get people to go to see a theme 247 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: park or something like that. Those companies would not touch 248 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: something that pitted black versus white. It was against their policies. 249 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: They would get eaten up in the press, they would 250 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: lose market share. It was not smart business, definitely, but yes, 251 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: not the least of which our affiliates would have gone crazy. 252 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: The advertisers wouldn't have bought us. But in this case, 253 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: since he made he got a salary, But he got 254 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: most of his money off of those integrations, like literally 255 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: millions of dollars, because if you're integrated into the show, 256 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: you can't DVR and fast forward it through it or 257 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: anything else. It's in the show. 258 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: Was there anybody who was like, this is a good idea, 259 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: that is flattering him? 260 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know that. I don't know that for 261 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: a fact that I only know about three or four 262 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: people who knew this before it got killed. Having talked 263 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: to the head of Reality, he got a call from 264 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: Mark Burnett, who was executive producer of the show, and said, uh, 265 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: Trump wants to do black versus White. And he didn't 266 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: say no, so he was, I guess, taking the temperature 267 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: of the network executives. Then he called Jeff Zucker, who 268 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: was my boss at the time, and Jeff says, no, 269 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 2: we're not doing that, and so that pretty much killed it. 270 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily have the ability to say to Donald 271 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: to'll forget it, but I did tell him it was 272 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: a bad idea, as did my wife when. 273 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: He had the idea. Did he go into any details 274 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: or specifics one found compelling about the First of all, 275 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: I think he. 276 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: Thought it would be noisy. I think he sort of 277 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: wanted to see it. And now this is what I've 278 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: heard from the producing people, but I didn't have any 279 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: direct contact with him. He wanted to have the black 280 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: team in a range of color from very black to 281 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: somewhat white. 282 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: And he was specific about that. 283 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, Now, I did not hear that from him directly, 284 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: So I'm giving you a sense that that's what I 285 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: heard from the producers say that he. 286 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: Wanted, and he wanted that because why the producers. 287 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess he wanted a social experiment 288 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: for it. They wanted to see if color had actually 289 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: anything to do with how well they did. You know, 290 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: there's all sorts of dark things that come out of that, 291 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: but it never got that far because it was never accepted. 292 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: But it speaks to him about the sort of level 293 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: of insensitivity towards any issue that can deal with the 294 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: American public and or race or people. 295 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: Take me inside your first impression of him when you've 296 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: met him. I've only met him once, and he's charming. 297 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: Yes he is. 298 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: He's charming, he is, and he is a I'm like, 299 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: if Donald Trump was selling condos, and he is, right, 300 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: that's what he did for a lot of his career. 301 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure you're getting out of the building without 302 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: buying the condo. Right. 303 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: Give him credit for what he is. He's sort of 304 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 2: an entertainer. He's a great salesperson, and he knew because 305 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: he appreciated compliments so much himself, he figured everybody else 306 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: did too. And so I bet that when he met you, 307 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: he complimented you. I can't say you how many times 308 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: he called me a genius because I was marketing the show, 309 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 2: and maybe I was good, but I can't say I 310 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: was a genius at what I did. But he would 311 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: do that, And yes, that is sort of an impression 312 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: that he gives. But there is a very dark side 313 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: to him that you quickly learned as well. 314 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: When did you first see the dark side? 315 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: First of all, the idea of the sort of the 316 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: compliment hole that could never be filled was part of it. 317 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: I think, does he have any sense that he does this? 318 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: That was one. Secondly, he would be one of the 319 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: few talent who would ask for full page ads supporting 320 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: how wonderfully was in the New York Times after the 321 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: end of a season. So you got a sense that 322 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: he was okay a little he needed to be stroked 323 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: an awful lot. But then if you said anything bad 324 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: about him, and I didn't necessarily, I was always very 325 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: able to kind of manipulate and walk it through with him. 326 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: But I remember a conflict that he had with Rosie O'Donnell. 327 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: She said something and rose o'donnald had nothing. He could 328 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: have easily just brushed that off, but he could not 329 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: stand to have somebody say something bad about him. So 330 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: there was that piece of it, But mostly we were 331 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: dealing with a television show, and he was, in his 332 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: own way, sort of a piece of talent. He was 333 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: a guy that had failed a number of times. He 334 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: was a bit of a clown, but he was not 335 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: any danger to the country. It was when all of 336 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: a sudden he was using some of these skills of 337 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: spin that he had mastered on the American public that 338 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 2: it became very dangerous because it looked like he was 339 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: going to have a power that he should never have 340 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: had and should never have again. 341 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: When you think about him, when did the Apprentice go 342 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: on the air? 343 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: Went on the air in January of two thousand and four. 344 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: January two thousand and four came off the air, you. 345 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: Know, it migrated, and it probably came him off the 346 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: air about two thousand and maybe thirteen thirteen or fourteen. 347 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: It got to the point where he wanted to run 348 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: for a president the first time, and he wanted to 349 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: still be on the air while he was running for president. 350 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: Somehow he didn't see anything wrong with that, and the 351 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: CEO at the time, I think, sir Steve Berkler puts, 352 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: you said no, if you pick one, you can't do both. 353 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: And so at that point he decided to take a 354 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: run for a president, and then the show it on, 355 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: show it away. 356 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to hold my line here that I don't 357 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: know what it is, but you know that this buffoon 358 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: is a legitimate business guy. I do not hold you responsible. 359 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: I give you dispensation right for it. That that any 360 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: sentient human being wouldn't know this by by two thousand 361 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: and four is beyond my comprehension. I say, the State 362 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: of New Jerseys, all of its flaws, did everything to 363 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: make sure that all of your good people across America, 364 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: in the in the world knew, you know, a a 365 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: prototypical New York hustler, bloviate or bullshit or part I 366 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: think you've captured it well par par excellence. So you're 367 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: in two thoy and twelve, you're in the You're in 368 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: the latter stages of the Apprentice, and Donald Trump is 369 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: now and I was I have my first public fight 370 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, you know where where he's confronted by Wolf 371 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: Blitzer about what I say about him, and I call 372 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: him the head clown in a Republican clown car, and 373 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: and my comments at the time focused on the racial 374 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: animis embedded in the lie of berthism that Barack Obama 375 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: was a Kenyan and how pernicious that was. Does anybody 376 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: at NBC over that period when Trump is now very 377 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: overtly right, if there's lines, right, you were the CEO 378 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: of the company, you're in management and and let me 379 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of personalities, right, You're dealing with 380 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: a lot of personalities. Rosi o' donald has a big personality. 381 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has a big personality. Whole network full full 382 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: of big personalities. And so the management of the company, 383 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure filled with big personalities. I know some of them. 384 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: And you have indulgence right for the personalities you have 385 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: to you don't want to be in conflict with your stars, 386 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: with the people that are that are driving a lot 387 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: of the revenue. But at the same time, right, there 388 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: are lines that does anybody have a discussion when when 389 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump starts to go deep into the Birther conspiracy 390 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: at NBC that this is off the wall, this is 391 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: a problem, that tells them to stop it, that this 392 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: is this is embarrassing for the network. This is racist. 393 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: What are you doing? Does that happen? 394 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: You know it could, but I would about the time 395 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: that he started doing that in in a serious way, 396 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: the birthersm thing he was, we were now onto celebrity Apprentice. 397 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: The idea of trying to get a job or anything. 398 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: The conceit of the show was now just sort of 399 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: you had celebrities trying to win some cash money for 400 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: their their local charity that they liked. So it was 401 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: no longer uh pressing that he was going to be 402 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: a legitimate businessman. The question is would because of the 403 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: activities that he was doing at that point, would he 404 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: still be acceptable as a host? Well, there's an awful 405 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 2: lot of people on television that have a lot of 406 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 2: odd ideas and things like that, he being one of them. 407 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: And while it like who else is there anyone else? 408 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: Like? 409 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: Who else? Is is there anyone else on television? Right? 410 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of anyone else on that has 411 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: I would say that displayed the animiss that And. 412 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: Because because he's so public, he's a very unique individual. 413 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 2: I would say that doctor Phil who has some of 414 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: those same kind of things as on TV and he's 415 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: he's syndicated, and television stations have the ability to choose 416 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: to buy him or not, versus the NBC, where the 417 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: affiliates mostly just sort of carried all the network lineup. 418 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: There was another case where a guy is pretty much 419 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: off the wall and says things that way and does that, 420 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: and then you can look at almost anybody over Fox News, 421 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson being one of those that would I would say, 422 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: has done some things that are totally inappropriate towards the 423 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: American scene, and they are still on the air, and 424 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: for some reason people appreciate that. So there are those 425 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: that are objectionable. But I don't think Trump was kept 426 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: on so much because of that. I think that the 427 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: show was doing what it was doing, and about the 428 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: time that he wanted to move into politics, that's when 429 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: it became a non starter and said you can't do it. 430 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: What is the legacy of the Apprentice? 431 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 2: Well, I suppose that's the reason that I came forward, 432 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 2: the legacy of the president. It is the show that 433 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: made Donald Trump a respectable businessman when before he was 434 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: largely failed and limited to New York. Outside of New York, 435 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: and I would say New Jersey where people saw that 436 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: he tried to be on the front page of the 437 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: New York Post all the time and wanted to be 438 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: seen and heard. However he could. We created a notion 439 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: of Donald Trump as a legitimate businessman that people outside 440 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 2: of New York really didn't have, and so that the 441 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 2: legacy of him being a legitimate businessman because of the 442 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: work that was reflected in the Apprentice is kind of 443 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: how he has seen and was too large to me 444 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: the reason that I came forward. 445 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: Did you ever feel his anger directed at you? Did 446 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: you ever upset him or anyone in your marketing space 447 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: during the course of the show. 448 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: And you know, when you're marketing, you tried to get 449 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: the talents to do what you wanted to. So we 450 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: didn't get too much time where we would challenge. The 451 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 2: closest that I would get got to that was the 452 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: when I challenged him on the idea of black versus white, 453 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: And had I said what I was thinking, which was 454 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: sort of your response, I probably would have gotten his wrath. However, 455 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: I just simply knew how to position it with him 456 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: in something he understood he was going to lose money, 457 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: and that all of a sudden made it give him 458 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: the second thought, and then quite honestly, when my wife 459 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: said I think you're wrong in that sort of public setting, 460 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: he sort of moved away. 461 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: I want to go deeper into the details of this again. 462 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: So are you're the Are you in this story? Are 463 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: you first person who's exposed to the idea black and white? 464 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: You know? 465 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: I I don't know for sure. I certainly think I 466 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: was a trial balloon because I think that he might 467 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: have had a conversation with Mark Burnett and Mark said, boy, 468 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that the network guys are going to 469 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 2: go for that. So he probably said, well, I'm going 470 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: to go to the marketing guy and see if I 471 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: can get his support, and maybe if I get his support, 472 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: then it'll go forward. I'm totally speculating there, because I've 473 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: thought of that myself. Was I the first guy because 474 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: I haven't heard it before, and I didn't hear it 475 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 2: from too many other people. The only other people that 476 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: I knew who knew about it were Burnett, a guy 477 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: named Jeff Gaspin, and then Jeff Zucker and me. 478 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: So Mark Burnett right by personality type. 479 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 2: And later later I will say something later on just 480 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: to say, well, you're sure it really happened. Some time 481 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: after that, he went on Howard Stern and said, I 482 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: have this great idea for the Apprentice, and they didn't 483 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: go for it because black versus white, and Howard starts here, 484 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: and pretty much your reaction. Robin Quivers, who was his 485 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: sort of co hosts, basically said, I think there would 486 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: be riots in the streets. That was her response to it, 487 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: which I think that was probably a less filtered response 488 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: than I was willing to give, or perhaps even Howard 489 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: Stern miraculously. 490 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: So Jeff Soccer didn't entertain it, Yeah, said no, did not, 491 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: did not, And this idea goes away, goes away, it goes, 492 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: it goes away. Any other observations about Donald Trump from 493 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: that period as this was getting ready to launch. Did 494 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: his behavior change at all when this became a success 495 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: or does he exist in a space case where he's 496 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: a success no matter what, regardless of this show failing 497 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 1: or doing well or or whatever. 498 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: Well, if you you, if you talk to him, he 499 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: was always a success, whether he had a bankruptcy or not. 500 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 2: That was it was. It was. It was deny everything 501 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: and and claim victory for everything. That's sort of what 502 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: he does and what he continues to do it takes 503 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: takes no blame, but all credit, and so that that 504 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: became more and more apparent, and most other stars. The 505 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: deal with shows. You you go through a publicist or 506 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: you go through the producer. You could talk to Trump directly. 507 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 2: You just give him a call Andy and he'd answer. 508 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: He simply loved the buzzer with it and the adulation 509 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: of it. And you know, in two thousand and four 510 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: to two thousand and seven, when I was probably most 511 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: involved with it. After that it sort of kind of 512 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: ran on its own. He was he was kind of 513 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: the real estate clown in the show, and your idea 514 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: of the lead clown in the clown car. It was 515 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 2: true back then. And you could see. Someone asked me, 516 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: who knew that I had been working with him, working 517 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: with him, would he would you ever support him for president? 518 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: And I kind of laughed and said no, he would 519 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: be a terrible president. Turns out I was right. And 520 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: the thing is that I'm I'm more concerned this time 521 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: because at least when he came in the first time, 522 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: he had no idea what it was all about. He 523 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: still doesn't have very much of an idea, but he 524 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: now knows that people said no to him, which he 525 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: did not like. And the type of people that he 526 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: will have by his side this time are people that 527 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: I feel are dangerous and can literally make him the 528 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 2: strong man that he idolizes. I think he wants to 529 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: be Victor Orbon now, So go ahead, move to Hungary 530 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: and be Victor Orbon. I don't care, don't stay here. 531 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: I have this duality that I wrestle with when I 532 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: look at Trump, because on the one hand, he is very, 533 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: very dangerous, yes, and on the other hand, he is 534 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: a perfectly formed buffoon. 535 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: Well, those two things now go hand in hand. 536 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: Talk to me about that, right, because. 537 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: Well, the buffoonery piece of it is that, you know, 538 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: he can be in the middle of a campaign and 539 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: he will dance to music for thirty two minutes, or 540 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: he will be in the middle of a campaign and 541 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: he'll talk about how well hung Arnold Palmer was. 542 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: Did he do things like that on The Apprentice? Did 543 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: he hold court? Was he around when they were filming 544 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: scenes he was not involved in? Was he on the present? 545 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: Was he he. 546 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: Was most present in the boardroom scenes. And the boardroom 547 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 2: scenes that you know they started as maybe ten minutes 548 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: they probably came twenty minutes of the show because they 549 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: do tended to tend to capture the audience attention because 550 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: he was so unpredictable, just as unpredictable now. I mean, 551 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 2: he would get people, he would fire people that had 552 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: done a good job, and he would hire people that 553 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: had done a bad job, and he would do it 554 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: for some odd reasons. But those sessions would often take 555 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: two and three hours to film, and then you would 556 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: see the twenty minutes the way the producers wanted them 557 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: to be, wanted to show him. There was plenty in 558 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: those see in those moments in the boardroom that probably 559 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: did elicit racist behavior or things that are inappropriate, but 560 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: they were all carefully manipulated. And there were times when 561 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: he would fire somebody that was a good candidate, and 562 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: they would have to go re edit the show to 563 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: find something about that candidate that looked inappropriate in order 564 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: to make it seem like it was a legitimate decision 565 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: other than the capricious one that he had made. 566 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: Were you ever there as they're filming. 567 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: I did not go to film most because almost all 568 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 2: that was done in New York and I was based 569 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: in la at the time. 570 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: What about how much attention was put into doing his hair, 571 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: doing his makeup as part of the show. 572 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: I don't think the show or the makeup artists involved 573 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: with the show could do any more than he does 574 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: to himself. That I mean clearly he has a hairdresser 575 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: with him all the time and he has I think. 576 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: Was that was that part of the firmament of the show, 577 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: right that Trump's. 578 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 2: No, not that that was that, just that that came 579 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 2: along for the ride. 580 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm That's what I mean. Right, Like 581 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: when Trump shows up where like for the Apprentice, say, 582 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: is he rolling in and his entourage, he's got his 583 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: hairdresser with them, Yeah, a BAP person with. 584 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 2: He had that or he had it done beforehand so 585 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 2: he didn't look inappropriate. But I think he spends time 586 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 2: with a hairdresser every day. 587 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: Any eruptions, any stories of him losing it stuff, any 588 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: any stories of him punching down bullying behavior. 589 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 2: There were things at the time when he he was 590 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: still sort of running a company, and there was one 591 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: time when he did a and I think that they've 592 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: somebody followed him and this could have been a syndicated 593 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: thing where they followed him into a meeting at one 594 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 2: of his golf clubs, and he was meeting with his people, 595 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: and there he was very abusive in that particular one. 596 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: And I think that that they askedpect to stop airing 597 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: that because it shed him in a bad light that 598 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: he didn't want to be reflected in. But I think 599 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: that he's he is careful to project what he wants 600 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: to project most of the time. The one thing that 601 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: I the other part that you know, if you go 602 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: back to eight years ago, and which what I thought 603 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: would have been disqualifying back then, you were talking, and 604 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: I will check a couple of early podcasts you talked 605 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: about things that had been disqualifying for previous candidates. How 606 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: he survived the Access Hollywood tape was remarkable to me, 607 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: and by calling it a locker room talk just seemed 608 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: to be crazy. But somehow, you know, his how do 609 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: I spin this? He then found people that had had 610 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: an affair with Bill Clinton when he was about to 611 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 2: do a debate against Hillary Clinton, not that the two 612 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 2: had much to do with each other, but somehow he 613 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 2: could say, well, I guess maybe I'm saying that I 614 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 2: did this. He did that. That's just the way things are. 615 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: Things are I mean he basically said, don't look at me, 616 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: point over there, you know. And so that's some of 617 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: what I saw from him. 618 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: Well, there were no small number of people in the 619 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties, as television was popularizing 620 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: and the TV sets were mainstreaming into everybody's household, to 621 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: predict it it would lead to the end of civilization. 622 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe they had a point. We'll see, But I 623 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: do think that Trump is a world class demagogue and 624 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: a world class manipulator at a time in a moment 625 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: where everyone is connected together, where every thought can be 626 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: shared instantaneously with no restraint whatsoever, where there is a 627 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: brokenness in the media and inability to tell truth from fiction, 628 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: a timidness in corporate media talking about what Trump is 629 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: and what he's become. Our politics is shaped by a 630 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: lot of illusions and a lot of shadows. But I 631 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: think that two weeks out in this race, you have 632 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: perfect clarity about who Donald Trump is, what he wants 633 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: to do, and what he was before he became president, 634 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: which was not a successful businessman. It was as a 635 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: New York City Carnival Barker, a hustler New York Post 636 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: page six celebrity, somebody who existed in the swirl, like 637 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: a goldfish in the bowl is not made a shark 638 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: in the ocean. Trump was a creation of a small pond, 639 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: and the people who cover it in New York City 640 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: was able to monetize it. And in the end, I 641 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: think Winston Churchill had it right when he said, the 642 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: democracy tends to deliver to its people the government they deserve. 643 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: And so while I don't deserve Trump, and you may 644 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: not deserve Trump, the American people may choose and may 645 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: prove that they deserve Trump in the next in the 646 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: next two weeks, and we'll see. 647 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hoping that that won't be the case. That 648 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 2: most specifically, there will be enough younger people who feel, 649 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 2: who is this old guy that says these crazy things, 650 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: does these crazy things that is inappropriate to anything that 651 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: I recall a president ever doing, and say we can't, 652 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 2: we just can't have him, and then listen. I can't 653 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 2: quite imagine why this race is as close as it is, 654 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 2: considering that I find one candidate just inappropriate for the job. 655 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 2: If we're doing the Apprentice right now and we're thinking, okay, 656 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: we're down to one candidate over here who is like 657 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 2: an accomplished prosecutor and a senator and a vice president 658 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 2: and has acclaim from major universities. And the other guy, 659 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 2: you have somebody who maybe graduated from Wharton or maybe 660 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: he simply bought his way. We never found his grades. 661 00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: He won't do his taxes once. You won't see that. 662 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 2: He's now a forty seven time felon. He's lost, he's 663 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 2: basically been a convicted of sexual abuse of Egene Carrol. 664 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: I mean, what more can we say between these two people? 665 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 2: And yet once about to be hired, ones to be fired, 666 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 2: and there's still tension in this TV reality that we're 667 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 2: facing in real life before us, there's no way that 668 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 2: I would not say, you're fired to Trump, you're hired 669 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 2: to Kamala Harris. And I wish that the entire American 670 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 2: public would think the same. And that's the reason that 671 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: I came for. 672 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: There you have it, and people, when you hear that choice, 673 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: remember this. There's no Heraldo, Gary Bucy or a meat 674 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: loaf on the ballads. It's Trump versus Kamala. And it's 675 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: an easy choice. Yeah, I think Tom Miller, thank you 676 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: very much for your time today. 677 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 2: Nice spending time with you. Thanks very much. 678 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: You got it. Thank you. I'm Steve Schmidt. This is 679 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: the warning and I invite you to join. Subscribe on 680 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: our substack, on our YouTube channel, follow us. Welcome to 681 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: the community.