1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan as a former death investigator. 2 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: There's any number of names I've been called over the years. 3 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: I think that people have a real discomfort with death. 4 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: They have a real discomfort around things involving the dead, 5 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: and it's almost comical many times. I guess the first 6 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: one I remember is, Hey, you're just like Quincy. And 7 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: to bring it up to more modern times, probably Dexter. 8 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: People will refer to me as Dexter. Hey, you're just 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: like Dexter, And of course I always say no, I'm not. 10 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm not a serial killer. But traditionally, I guess the 11 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: one thing that people have equate me with, because it's 12 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: that imagery that comes to mind, is the grim Reaper. 13 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: That's pretty horrible in and of itself you think about it. Today, 14 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a man that actually rode 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: around in a car, and he worked for very prestigious institution. 16 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: And the car that he wrote around in it had 17 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: a vanity plate. And on that vanity plate where the 18 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: letters g R I M. DASH are. Now, I don't 19 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: know what that means to you, but it sounds suspiciously 20 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 1: like the Reaper himself. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 21 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks. Dave. We were talking about names just a 22 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: while ago, and isn't it interesting when you get involved 23 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: in whatever your career track is, there are some monikers 24 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: I guess that are hung on you there. Maybe people 25 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: forget your name. I don't know. Did people ever refer 26 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: to you as the radio guy? 27 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: Oh buddy? Still you get called all kinds of things. 28 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: And I've wondered that about you because when I explain 29 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: who you are, most of them already know who you 30 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 2: are because they've seen you on TV over the last 31 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: ten fifteen years, so they know you do something with 32 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: criminal stuff. And then when I try to explain he's 33 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: a professor, try to lay it all out there, and 34 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: ultimately it comes back to the dude deals with bones 35 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: in DNA, and I don't really know how to explain it. 36 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: But these people that we're going to be talking about today, 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: and I see people because we've got to start with one. 38 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: But boy, what is it? Scratch a liar, find a thief? 39 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, I've never heard that before. 40 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: Really. 41 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: I've heard about pulling the thread on the sweater and 42 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing comes unraveled. But scratch give it to 43 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: him again. 44 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: Scratch a liar, Find a thief. 45 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: Scratch a liar, Find a thief. Wow, okay, I'm following 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: that one away. I hope you don't have that copyright. 47 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: I got it from Ray, the movie about Ray Charles. 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: Oh, holy smokes. Okay, well there you go. 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: But bottom lining it, this goes to the heart and 50 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: soul of human beings and how we treat people when 51 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 2: they're alive and when they're dead, and the efforts we 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: go to be respectful. What we're going to be talking 53 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: about today, if nothing else, is the most disrespectful thing 54 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: I can think of happening to somebody without their family 55 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: knowing or anybody else. It's a story I didn't think 56 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: I would ever see, Joe. I'm going to be honest 57 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: with you. I know, crazy stuff happens. But when you 58 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: start mentioning Harvard, I tend to on the level goes up. 59 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: How do you measure respect for the dead? On an 60 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: interesting little side, there was a story that came out 61 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: many years ago, and if you remember, I don't know 62 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: if you remember, the old newspaper insert magazine that would 63 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: come out in the Sunday papers called Parade. When you 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: open the Sunday paper, the coupons fallout and parade falls out, 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: and there was a feature article in there about a 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: mortician that lived in miss I think it was Mississippi, 67 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: and her family had owned this mortuary for years and years. 68 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: But there was this old gentleman that she regarded in 69 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: a fatherly way, and he had no family members and 70 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: he worked around the funeral home. Her family was apparently 71 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: gone her dad and genuinely loved this man, really loved him. 72 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: It was really creepy because what she had done is 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: that when this guy died, she had him embalmed there 74 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: in the facility that she owned, and dave she took 75 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: his body and stood him up in the corner of 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: her home and left him there if aestuoned in his 77 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: Sonday go to meeting. The article talked about how she 78 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: would have to touch up his makeup every now and then. 79 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: But there was this image of her sitting on you 80 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: know how they take those fish eye lens images on 81 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: these magazines, and she was seated on her sofa and 82 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: over her left or right shoulder is this guy's corpse 83 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: in the background. And people had allowed this to go. Now, 84 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: I can't say that that's necessarily disrespectful. But certain people 85 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about how you honor the dead, 86 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: how you take care of them, because let's face it, 87 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: we can get off into a spiritual realm here and 88 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: say that the dead are no longer people. I think 89 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: their families would argue that they still are because that body, 90 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: that shell that remains is still representative of that individual 91 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: and a life that they lived, and how you treat 92 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: those remains. Arguably, if you want to think about the 93 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: dead or the most defenseless, right, I mean, there's nothing 94 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: they can do if you try to violate them in 95 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: any way. And so there's this built in trust that 96 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: people that work in the mortuary industry and those that 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: are in the anatomical gift industry. It's kind of unspoken. 98 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: You know that you're supposed to honor the dead, and 99 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,559 Speaker 1: in this case it would seem at least that wasn't 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: the case. 101 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: In this particular case. This is where the FBI. When 102 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: the FBI does a raid, oftentimes the search warrant is 103 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: always very specific as to what they're after. In particular, 104 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: the man of James not living in Kentucky, FBI comes 105 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: to raid his place. Now he is a man who 106 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: has a little bit of a record. I don't want 107 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: to dismiss it, but he did have past history with 108 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: crime and he was not allowed to own a gun. 109 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: When the FBI or local authorities think you are a 110 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: convicted felon who is not allowed to have a gun 111 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: and something pops up on their radar, they're going to 112 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: go look. And so the FBI raids this home of 113 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: mister James not in Bullock County, Kentucky, and what they 114 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: find forty human skulls. But that's not all. They find 115 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: spinal cords that are being used as decorations. They find 116 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: femurs and hip bones. And I don't know because I've 117 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: never handled these, but Jo Scott Morgan, I'm going to 118 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: be willing to about that. Femurs from a bone standpoint, are 119 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: pretty thick and big. When it comes to human beings. 120 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: Oh boy, you've got the pelvis and the hip So 121 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: if you're thinking about those, they're very robust. They're spinal cords. 122 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: But my suspicion is here that we're talking about vertebra. 123 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: You know, they're saying this guy had spinal cords, and 124 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he couldn't As a matter of fact, 125 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: I've got to say probably in the morgue when we 126 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: do detailed dissections on bodies, and it will do it 127 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: for any number of reasons, any kind of trauma that 128 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: an individual may have sustained as a result of a 129 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: motor vehicle accent, certainly with gunshot ones, certain diseases. One 130 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: of the most difficult procedures that you can do in 131 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: the morgue is the removal of the brain and the 132 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: spinal cord and get this leave it intact, and you 133 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: have to go in and tearly. So what that means 134 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: is that once you have removed the organs out of 135 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: the body, you go down the midline of the anterior 136 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: aspect or the front of the spine. Okay, so you're 137 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: only going to see the front of the spine if 138 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: you're obviously looking at the intier the of the body. 139 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: And to do that dissection with a bone saw, it's 140 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: very difficult, and so you can actually take out a 141 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: spinal cord intact. It's a very very tedious process in 142 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: order to do this, and they will be retained many 143 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: times in a jar, for instance, and they'll be preserved 144 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: and what's really kind of creepy about it when you 145 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: see it is that with the spinal cord itself, it's 146 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: attached to the brain stem. And if you've ever seen 147 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: a brain with a spinal cord attached, David looks like 148 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: something from outer s because it's like the brain has 149 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: this long, long tail attached to it. And I've seen 150 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: these in jars. For instance. I've actually removed a few 151 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: and put them into jars, completely intact, and as they 152 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: age and they're there in that glass and kind of floating, 153 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: it looks like some type of snake, some alien type 154 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: of snake, just kind of wrapped and coiled in that environment, 155 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: and it sits there and you're waiting for it to 156 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: reveal its secrets. Make no mistake. I love to travel, 157 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: truly do I value it more than just about anything else. 158 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, money's great, you gotta have money in order 159 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: to travel. But if you're talking about a big, fancy 160 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: house and a big fancy car, I'm going to take 161 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: travel day in and day out because you just learned 162 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: so much. And there's a couple of places I've always 163 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: want to go and it's part of who I am, 164 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: it's what I do. But there's two places one is 165 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: in Portugal and the other is in Milan, Italy. And 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to Milan to see fashion. I've always 167 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: wanted to go and see what's referred to as an austuary, 168 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: and it's actually referred to as the San Berndino Asa 169 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: in Milan. And there is another one, this oshuary that 170 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: is in Portugal in Ivora, and it's called the Chapel 171 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: of Bones. And what has happened over the centuries is 172 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: that the monks that take care of the remains which 173 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: are buried underground, that create oshuaries and oshwaries are these 174 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: little areas that have nothing but stack skeletal remains. And 175 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: the one in Portugal is quite beautiful. It's actually a 176 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: chapel with an altar that has created for worship underground, 177 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: and it's quite striking when you see it. I've always 178 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: wanted to enter this place and just see what it's like. 179 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: But here's what I can't imagine. Dave. You're a FBI 180 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: agent and you're sent out to execute a warrant and 181 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: the guy that comes to the door has wild hair, 182 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: wild eyes. He answers the door and you ask him, Hey, 183 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: who's here in the house with you? And his response 184 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: is only my dead friends. And that's the response that 185 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: the FBI agent's got from James Not. 186 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: I'm thinking they were just glad that he didn't look 187 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: at them and say you're next. The whole thing about 188 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: THEBI doing a search warrant and being surprised, I don't 189 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: necessarily know that. I believe that. I know they were 190 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: there as part of a gun investigation. But as we 191 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: started peeling this onion, there's so much more to this 192 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: and all I could think of, A is it legal? 193 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: And B if it's not illegal. 194 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: Why listen? No offense to Bullock County, Kentucky. I'm sure 195 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: it's a lovely place. I would I'd go visit Bullock County, Kentucky. 196 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: But you're talking about one man in this location, this 197 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: James Knot, that has been identified by the FBI, and 198 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: he's got all of these remains that are inside of 199 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: his home. I mean, you've got remains that has a 200 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: scarf wrapped around the circumference of the skull. He's got 201 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: another skull that is apparently immediately adjacent either on or 202 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: in his bed dave where he slept. The question is, 203 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: is this is this guy a neckro file does he 204 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: rob Graves or is it something darker than that? If 205 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: you can imagine, is he a serial killer or is 206 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: he trafficking in human remains? I don't know. It seems 207 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: like he took a lot of pride in this, but yeah, 208 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: they found a lot of weapons in there, But what's 209 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: interesting and charge him with anything related to the human remains? 210 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 2: Day you mentioned one of the skulls being on or 211 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: near the bed. I actually spent some time on this 212 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: because my first thought was, if this skull is attached 213 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 2: to something else and is laying there on the pillow 214 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: under the covers, we might just not do this show. 215 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: I don't think I could handle it. But what they 216 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: did find, and you mentioned the decorations and things like that, 217 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: the reality of this is I don't think their first 218 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: thought the FBI was we've got a massive serial killer 219 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: on our hands. Who is crazy? That passed Dahmer and Bundy. 220 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: I don't think they thought that because as part of 221 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: a bigger investigation, the FBI was not just aware of 222 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: the trafficking in human remains or is that what you 223 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,359 Speaker 2: call the bones I mean in this particular case. 224 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's what they're referred to. 225 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 2: US and Harvard in particular, has been in the news 226 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: in the last couple of months over some scan So 227 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: as we move forward here, I wanted to give you 228 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: an idea of what the FBI found. The man had 229 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: AK forty seven with loaded magazines, dummy grenades, two plates 230 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 2: of body armor, loaded thirty eight special revolver, black powder primers, 231 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: elastic blasting caps, a detonation cord, inert grenade components, And 232 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: you have to ask, well, was there anything else in 233 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: the mix of all this the bones, the skulls, the 234 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: spinal cords, and the weapons. A Harvard Medical School bag. 235 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: You talk about putting two and two together, you begin 236 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: to think, first off, I don't know, maybe there are 237 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Harvard trained physicians in Bullock County, Kentucky. Maybe there are, 238 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: Maybe there's former faculty members, maybe there's people that donate. 239 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: I think one of the first questions that I would 240 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: ask this fella is how did you come into possession 241 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: of this back? And why is it here? Because when 242 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: you start to see all of these anato specimens, and 243 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: that's really what they are, they are anatomical specimens, each 244 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: and every single item there, whether it's one of the skulls, 245 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: the spinal column, slash chords, the femurs, the hip bones, 246 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: all of these sorts of things. You begin to think, well, 247 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: you've got these specimens. Here, is this in some way 248 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: affiliated with Harvard Medical School? And how did you come 249 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: into possession this back? I mean, the AK forty seven's 250 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: are really intriguing. Your previously convicted felon. You're not supposed 251 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: to have any of this stuff. But dude, we've got 252 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: to talk about the human remains. How did you come 253 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: into possession of them? And I think that that's when 254 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: this takes a turn. 255 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: Dave, and I wanted to know from you, Joe, when 256 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: one gets human remains like this where he's able to 257 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: use them as decorations. They had to have been scrubbed, cleaned. 258 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: I don't know where they came from right now, so 259 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: I'm just assuming that they've been cleaned up, because I 260 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: don't know what a non cleaned up skull would look like. 261 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: I'm really out of my depth here, Joe. What are 262 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: we talking about? Are we talking about bones that have 263 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: gone through somebody's dishwasher? Have they come out of a lab? 264 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: How did they use these at Harvard? What is the 265 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: purpose of having skeletal remains where this guy could have forty. 266 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: Skulls with skulls in particular, when you're talking about a 267 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: gross anatomy lab. Previous institution I was at, we had 268 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: a gross anatomy lab and I spent a lot of 269 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: time in there with my students and we'd have generally 270 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: I don't know five, six, sometimes eight bodies that were 271 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: in there that the students from several different departments within 272 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: the university would utilize to do gross anatomy with. Trust 273 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: me when I say the dissections are extensive, and you 274 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: want them to be extensive, Dave, because these people are 275 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: going to go into the medical arts and you want 276 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: them to understand just I mean as my detail as possible, 277 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: every nuance of human anatomy and how everything works. It's 278 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: not just the anatomy, it's the physiology and understanding how 279 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: all of that works together in order to make us 280 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: who we are and how you're going to treat these 281 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: people in the future. So with that said, the fact 282 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: that he had in tax goulls is kind of interesting 283 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: because many times, if they were in fact intact, we 284 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: don't have all of those details. You will not find 285 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: a fully intact skull out of a medical school, because 286 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: what do you have to do, Well, you have to 287 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: open the head, take the brain out, and you cannot 288 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: appreciate neuro anatomy as it applies specifically to the brain 289 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: without eviscerating the brain from the skull. So, if that's 290 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: the case where the skulls completely intact, did they have 291 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: a saw incision which is referred to the incision it's 292 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: actually referred to as a circumferential incision, which is a 293 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: fancy way of saying the incision goes all the way 294 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: around the skull. So if he's got in tax skulls, 295 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: that's one of the ways, you know, somebody asked me, 296 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: is is this a real human skull? If I see 297 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: the skull cap is still on there, or what's referred 298 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to as the calvarium, it becomes the calvarium when you 299 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: pop the off of the skull. If I see something 300 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: that is intact and somebody's got it up on a 301 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: shelf or something like that, I'm going to look at 302 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: it and I'm going to say, well, if that's intact, 303 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: why would you have an intact skull? Because you know 304 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: that it probably is not part of a gross anatomy 305 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: class there's a higher likelihood unless you're collecting human remains, 306 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: there's a higher likelihood that it's probably a mock up 307 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: that just looks like bone because most of the time 308 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: these students have to pop the caps these calvariums off 309 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: of them to take the brain out in order to 310 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: examine it. There's no other way to get the brain out, Okay, 311 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: is what it comes down to. When it is said 312 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: by the FBI that he had forty human skulls, you 313 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: begin to think, well, my word, how did you get 314 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: these and what state were they in? It's an interesting thing. 315 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: Unless the people in Bullock County, Kentucky, had went out 316 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: to the local cemetery and looked around, they had a 317 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: bunch of holes in the ground. There's got to be 318 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: some other explanation for this guy being in possession of 319 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: these skulls, forty of them. This guy is only thirty 320 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: nine years old. How do you collect that many skulls 321 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: in that period of time in your life and what's 322 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: the purpose for you having them? And back to your 323 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: point about how do you get these bones clean? There's 324 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: any number of ways that you get them clean. People 325 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: have used bleach over the years. Forensic anthropologists actually use 326 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: a technique that is not for the squeamish. If we have, say, 327 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: for instance, bones that come to us out of the field, 328 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: and the tissue there might be some decomposing tissue that's 329 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: still on there, they will essentially slowly heat that bone 330 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: inside of a pot with water or chemical mixture inside 331 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: of it, and the soft tissue will fall away, and 332 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: so that what you're left with is raw bone, just 333 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: pure bone. If you've gotten medical students that are utilizing 334 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: bone as a tool for understanding anatomy, they're not very 335 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: skilled with tools at this point, and you're going to 336 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: get a lot of tool marks on these bones. You'll 337 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: see scalpel scraping, for instance. You'll see where they've used 338 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: scissors to cut away tendons and those sorts of things, 339 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: and if you closely examine it, you can see that 340 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: somebody has done something to these bones. 341 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 2: I know that as we move forward, I don't want 342 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: to make a light of this by Joe. I don't 343 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 2: know any other way. When you've got a man who's 344 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: got forty skulls on his property and he's made decorations 345 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: out of them, I would think, and I mean this, 346 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: if that's your thing, that you like this type of 347 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: imagery and around you, that you just by plastic that 348 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: it would hold up longer. And this seems to be 349 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: more from a shock value standpoint of And when I 350 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 2: saw the guy's mugshob, my first, second and third thought was, hey, man, 351 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: don't rule out the possibility that he is a serial killer. 352 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: Well here's the thing, Dave, there's a certain level of 353 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: comfort than has develops with this. There's almost a callous 354 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: that develops, I think psychologically to being around human remains. I'llgue, 355 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: for instance, when I spent hours and hours in the 356 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: Morgue and it was my daily routine. I'd go in, 357 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: I'd have a cup coffee or soda or something like that, 358 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: and I'd be standing at the stan counter, you know, 359 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: writing there'd be bodies laid out in there. If I 360 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: just grabbed John Q Public and said, hey, I want 361 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: you to come to work with me, I'll go through 362 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: the drive through by you a cup coffee and you 363 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: can come and talk to me at the counter. And 364 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: I've got bodies laid out in there. You think that 365 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: person's going to listen to anything I have to say. 366 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: They're not going to sit there and calmly drink their coffee, 367 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: and for me, it goes to this idea that you've 368 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: become very comfortable in this environment. You don't give it 369 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: a second thought because it's part of the world that 370 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: you occupy. So when you're talking about this gentleman from 371 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: up in Kentucky, you begin to think, how in the 372 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: world do you get to this level of comfort at 373 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: this point in your life where you are actually sleeping 374 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: with a human skull in your bed. I'm gonna throw 375 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: out a couple of names to you, Dave. The names 376 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: actually come from a few years back. William Burke and 377 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: William Hare, and these guys were from Scotland and they 378 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 1: were a pair of serial killers and they kind of 379 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: had an interesting, let's say, modus operandi. They were killing 380 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: people in order to create a market for anatomical gifts, 381 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: and these gifts of these bodies of these people that 382 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: they were killing. We're going to a gentleman that was 383 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: highly respected and highly regarded by the name of doctor 384 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: Robert Knox. But the problem was this, when you worked 385 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: in medical schools back during that period of time, there 386 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: was a prohibition against doing human dissections, and so there 387 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 1: was a real market and this happened a lot. There 388 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: were several cases. There's even a very infamous case that 389 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: occurred in Georgia where they went in under many years ago, 390 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: went under one of the old buildings at the Medical 391 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: College of Georgia it's no longer call that now, where 392 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: they found an area where bones had been dumped. Medical 393 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: students pre Civil War were doing dissections on human remains 394 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: that were provided to them by grave robbers. They would 395 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: do them by candle light, just so that they could 396 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: understand human anatomy. But the reason I bring this up 397 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: is that actually one of the center points of this 398 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: investigation that the FBI is conducting involves a man and Dave. 399 00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: His email handle that he actually used was William Burke. 400 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: James Knott, the Kentucky man that had the forty skulls. 401 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: He was the one using William Burke as a Facebook 402 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: Messenger name, and he was the one, according to the 403 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: FBI and their paperwork, that's who actually was using that name, 404 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: and his contact was Jeremy Pauley, Jeremy Paully being from Pennsylvania. 405 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: As you start looking at these things, these people were 406 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: all using Facebook Messenger. Joe, you've got James not with 407 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: the forty skulls in Kentucky and his contact Jeremy in Pennsylvania. 408 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 2: That's where that investigation begins to really open up to 409 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: because ultimately who had that Harvard Medical School bag and 410 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: how to end up in Kentucky at the home of 411 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: James Knot. 412 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question because now you're getting into the 413 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: area of anatomical gifts. Who in the world is going 414 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: to have access to human remains? Well, it's the people 415 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: that put their hands on the human remain. What's the 416 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: quickest way to facilitate that if you're looking to actually 417 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: distribute these among people, Well, if you sign a will 418 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: and you say, okay, I want my body to go 419 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: to X, Okay, I want it to go to I 420 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: don't know. There's people that actually donate their bodies to 421 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: the Body Farm in Tennessee. I've had people ask me 422 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: about that, something I would want to do, but people 423 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: do that. But there are a large number of people 424 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: that say, for instance, they want their body donated from 425 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: medical science. And it's certainly admirable, I think because the 426 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: body is going to be used in order to teach 427 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: people so that they can go out and become future 428 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: practitioners in the medical arts, and you begin to think 429 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: about this, there's a certain level of trust that comes 430 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: along with these donations, and it would appear that how 431 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: Harvard kind of weaves its way into this whole drama. 432 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: There was a fellow by the name of Cecil Lodge 433 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: who's formerly he headed up the Harvard Medical School Anatomical 434 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: Gift program. So there's your point of contact. And what 435 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: was happening apparently was Lodge has been allegedly using I 436 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: don't want to say Facebook marketplace, but he's been utilizing 437 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: Facebook as a way to broker human remains and individuals 438 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: that are tied into here. You've got this fellow in 439 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania that's brokering or that the remains are coming to them. 440 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: There's an individual in Arkansas that is a funeral director. 441 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: They're acquiring things. They're acquiring things like skin dissected out, hands, feet, 442 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things that you normally use so 443 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: that people can do detailed dissections. Let me kind of 444 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: explain to you how this works, because I think a 445 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: lot of folks might believe that when a body is 446 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: used by medical school to teach gross anatomy, they're going 447 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: to take that body and keep it stored forever and ever. Amen, 448 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: That's not what happens. Here's how the process goes. So 449 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: let's just say the Cecil Lodge Fellow has a body 450 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: that is donated to Harvard Medical School. And I'm sure 451 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: that there are many alumni that have donated their body, 452 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: particularly those that came through the medical school. And let's 453 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: face it, Dave, those are very powerful people. Can you imagine? 454 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: So an individual says, Okay, I want my dad's body, 455 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: my mom's body to go to Harvard Medical School. It 456 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: was their wish. Maybe the individual before they passed on 457 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: signed an agreement making their body an anatomical gift. Well, 458 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: Lodge takes the body. It will actually pass before the 459 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: medical school students, the incoming freshmen, well I say incoming freshmen, 460 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: and they're not referred to as freshmen, they refer to 461 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: as first years. And that's when you take gross anatomy 462 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: in medical school. That first year you got started at 463 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: the baseline here and they do their dissection. There might 464 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: be two or three of these students on one body, 465 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: working as a team, and they'll work with this body, 466 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: perhaps through an entire semester, and in some cases through 467 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: an entire year. Well, what happens to the body after that? 468 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: Do they go and have a funeral service? No. Most 469 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: of the time those bodies are then taken to a 470 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: facility where there's a standing agreement where those bodies will 471 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: then be cremated. That's not what happened. So after these 472 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: bodies would have gone through these detailed dissections at Harvard, 473 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: apparently things changed. They weren't going out to be cremated. 474 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: These bodies were being retained, and allegedly what has happened 475 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: is that parts of these bodies were being broken to 476 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: individuals that Lodge has allegedly been networked with throughout the country. 477 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: It goes out to these individuals, and then these individuals 478 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: have people that are interested in purchasing interesting souvenirs body parts, skulls, 479 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: spinal columns, a pelvis, a thigh bone, or femur, anything 480 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: that just kind of peaks their interest. People that will 481 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: take the small elements of a hand, for instance, say 482 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: the digits off of a finger, and make necklaces out 483 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: of these things. There are people that make human teeth 484 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: necklaces out of these things. Most of the time, it 485 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: doesn't happen here in the us. But if that's where 486 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: your imagination runs to, it's being fueled by these individuals 487 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: that participate in this kind of behavior. 488 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: We have people that we trust with the last vet. 489 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: This is my mom, you know, this is my dad, 490 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: this is my wife, and you're at the funeral home 491 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: at my emotionally weakest moment. Maybe we have decided to 492 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: do cremation. I expect this to be all of my 493 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: loved one. I don't expect for you. You're already charging 494 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: me a bundle to do this job, and now you're 495 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 2: gonna take my mom's skull and sell it to some 496 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: guy so he can make a vase out of it 497 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: in Kentucky. No, here's what we actually have. We have 498 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: James Nott at the forty Skullman. We have the Pennsylvania guy, 499 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 2: Jeremy Pauley. We have the head of the Harvard, the 500 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: former More guy at Harvard, this whole and Candice Chapman 501 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 2: out of Little Rock. All of these people playing a 502 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 2: role in taking body parts that were not intended to 503 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: be a lamp and they're moving them around the country. 504 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: And it's not just small It's not just Joe Scott 505 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: and Dave Needing a femur for a lucky stick. This 506 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: is a whole big thing using social media to reach 507 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: other like minded individuals, to create these trophies, these things, 508 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: and to move them around the country. It's a big group. 509 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And to this day there are essentially 510 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: mister Lodge along with his wife Denise, who is also 511 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: involved in this. There are five other people that you've named. 512 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: They have only been charged at this point and not convicted. 513 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: And right now we're going to wait and see what 514 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: happens with this case because it's going to impact, i think, Dave, 515 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: in the long run, it's going to impact policy as 516 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: it applies to all of these other groups, all of 517 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: these people that you allow into that circle, within the 518 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: anatomical gift environment and within mortuaries that are trusted with 519 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: taking care of the dead, but more importantly taking care 520 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: of their memories and their families. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 521 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs