Speaker 1: The volume. All right, welcome in to a Wednesday morning
Speaker 1: podcast that was ugly as hell. So the Lakers missed
Speaker 1: ten of their first eleven shots, didn't play great defense
Speaker 1: for most of the night, twenty turnovers, shot forty one
Speaker 1: percent from the floor, Lebron inexplicably struggled with inbounds passes,
Speaker 1: but they hold on to win in overtime despite a
Speaker 1: weird ad foul at the end of regulation one oh two.
Speaker 1: So it's a win. You know, they're not a great
Speaker 1: offensive team, and it's a little dispiriting that in year
Speaker 1: twenty they still need Lebron to really carry them down
Speaker 1: the stretch of a lot of games. Eighty was okay,
Speaker 1: mostly good. And what the Lakers did last night, and
Speaker 1: we've talked about this, they're not a great offensive team.
Speaker 1: I mean, they protect the rim, they initiate a lot
Speaker 1: of contacts, so they get to the free throw line,
Speaker 1: and last night they were twenty two or twenty four
Speaker 1: from the free throw line. That's what they did really well.
Speaker 1: They took advantage at the stripe and that was the difference.
Speaker 1: And they're a team Minnesota relied. Carl Anthony Towns had
Speaker 1: a good night, but they relied on a lot of
Speaker 1: jump shots, and the Lakers tend to drive, create contact
Speaker 1: and get to the free throw line. They played very poorly.
Speaker 1: This is they just weren't terribly engaged. And for the
Speaker 1: Lakers to win, you generally know you're gonna get about
Speaker 1: twenty six to twenty eight from Anthony Davis. In Laker wins,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get about twenty six points from Lebron James,
Speaker 1: and then you need a third guy to step up.
Speaker 1: That's usually the recipe for winning. You play some good defense,
Speaker 1: you get a third guy to step up offensively. Austin
Speaker 1: Reeves wasn't terribly dynamic, and Dennis Shooter had a couple
Speaker 1: of big shots big three at the end of regulation,
Speaker 1: but they didn't really have a third guy step up
Speaker 1: and give them that twenty twenty one points they need
Speaker 1: in most wins. But shorthanded Minnesota just ran out of
Speaker 1: gas late, hit a lot of shots early. Mike Conney
Speaker 1: was red hot again. Carl Anthony Town's played well. But
Speaker 1: this is a Laker team that there's a certain formula
Speaker 1: they have to have to win, and that is Anthony
Speaker 1: Davis has got to dominate the inside. Lebron has to
Speaker 1: be engaged in the second half. You can't ask for
Speaker 1: Lebron at this point in his career to give you
Speaker 1: thirty nine engaged minutes. He tends to settle into a
Speaker 1: game after about ten minutes twelve minutes. He didn't start
Speaker 1: quickly on most nights, he certainly didn't in this one.
Speaker 1: The Lakers as a hold and shoot the ball particularly
Speaker 1: well early, fell behind and just kind of sputtered, But
Speaker 1: you kind of felt the entire way like they would
Speaker 1: finally Lebron would finally kind of pick it up and
Speaker 1: carry them down the stretch. He did, didn't play great
Speaker 1: down the stretch, had a couple of very bizarrely bad
Speaker 1: Lebron turnovers, but it was good enough to win. This
Speaker 1: is kind of what I talked about with this Laker
Speaker 1: team in March Madness. I think they'd be a handful
Speaker 1: because they're physical, they can defend the rim, they'll get
Speaker 1: to the free throw line. Darven Ham's a good defensive coach.
Speaker 1: But if you're asking this team to win a beauty
Speaker 1: contest and to get easy baskets, and generally teams that
Speaker 1: win championships, they've got shot makers or playmakers or both,
Speaker 1: and they get some easy baskets. You know, you never
Speaker 1: quite know who's going to be the third scorer for
Speaker 1: the Lakers, So it's it's against good teams. If you
Speaker 1: look at how they've played lately, I think they've won
Speaker 1: ten of twelve. You know, they've beaten a lot of
Speaker 1: average teams or shorthanded teams. They're not pretty. Baskets don't
Speaker 1: come easy. Tonight it's a great example of you know,
Speaker 1: it was just kind of an ugly win, and you
Speaker 1: got to feel good about that. They don't win this
Speaker 1: game on the road, they wanted at home, they needed overtime.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of it's kind of the way they're
Speaker 1: going to have to win. Just treat every game it's
Speaker 1: like a March Madness one and done. Play with urgency.
Speaker 1: They're not talented enough offensively to have really really off nights.
Speaker 1: I mean, again, they won that game tonight at the
Speaker 1: free throw line. They hit their free throws, but they
Speaker 1: had twenty turnovers, didn't shoot the ball particularly well, didn't
Speaker 1: have a third score. So this is kind of the
Speaker 1: way it's going to work. Can they beat a good
Speaker 1: team like Memphis four times? I think they can. In
Speaker 1: the first playoff series, I don't think they can extend
Speaker 1: it to a second playoff series win and a third
Speaker 1: I just think you're asking too much of an old
Speaker 1: guy and an often hurt guy and Anthony Davis. But
Speaker 1: Crypto Arena was rocking. You know, it was really funny.
Speaker 1: In the first game, Atlanta played with a ton of urgency,
Speaker 1: jumped on top of Miami, and again Miami, like the Lakers,
Speaker 1: baskets come hard. They're not a pretty offensive team, and
Speaker 1: they just didn't have enough offensively in the tank to
Speaker 1: overcome the deficit. The Lakers did mostly because you know,
Speaker 1: Lebron engineers to come back, and they hit a couple
Speaker 1: of big threes. You know, when you were watching this
Speaker 1: game tonight, your first takeaway is, God, this is really
Speaker 1: hard to stomach. Just can we bury the tape. This
Speaker 1: is what it's going to look like in the playoffs
Speaker 1: for this team. Defend, get to the line, hit your
Speaker 1: free throws. This is what they're gonna look like. They're
Speaker 1: not going to be pretty because you start looking in
Speaker 1: the West. Now, Phoenix with KD now has some length,
Speaker 1: fewer easy baskets. Golden State, Wiggins is back, Gary Payton's back.
Speaker 1: They can defend. Now start looking at some of these
Speaker 1: teams you can match up with in the West. Memphis
Speaker 1: gonna play real defense. This is what it's going to
Speaker 1: look like. Little choppy, little ugly close need lebron down
Speaker 1: the stretch and hit your free throws. So it's a win.
Speaker 1: It's an ugly one. And that's a good segue for
Speaker 1: us into our guest today and the Calling Coward podcast.
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Speaker 1: ticket deals, lowest prices guaranteed. Well, I'm very excited. I
Speaker 1: got to talk to Jeff Benedict after he finishes another
Speaker 1: absolutely consumable book. You know, he wrote The Dynasty, the
Speaker 1: Insight on the New England Patriots, which is soon to
Speaker 1: be a documentary on Apple TV. It was tremendous. He
Speaker 1: co wrote the book with my friend armand Kitayan Tiger Woods.
Speaker 1: And now the new book is Lebron. And it's the
Speaker 1: kind of in depth reporting and context that you just
Speaker 1: don't get on, certainly on shows like mine, but you
Speaker 1: don't even get in like a magazine article of some
Speaker 1: renowned It's such quality reporting. And I thought I knew
Speaker 1: just about everything about Lebron, but the details and the
Speaker 1: digging here is so fun. You start the book. The
Speaker 1: topic is the decision, which for years I defended Lebron on.
Speaker 1: David Stern argued with me, I'm like, listen, he gave
Speaker 1: millions of dollars of the Boys and Girls Club, give
Speaker 1: me a break and Stern, as you know, appalled is
Speaker 1: too strong but didn't like it. So let's you start
Speaker 1: the book there. Maverick Carter, who I know very well
Speaker 1: consider a friend, had some leverage in creating this. Let's
Speaker 1: go back to the decision. People may just remember the
Speaker 1: Jim Gray interview. It's quick. How did it land for Lebron?
Speaker 1: Talk about the genesis of it? Well, it's it's fantastic
Speaker 1: because Lebron had been he was being courted for a
Speaker 1: year or longer by a handful of teams that were
Speaker 1: pulling out all the stops to get him. And you know,
Speaker 1: it was the question not just in the NBA, but
Speaker 1: the big question in sports now that summer was where
Speaker 1: is Lebron gonna go? Or is he going to stay
Speaker 1: in Cleveland? And the reason I decided to open there
Speaker 1: is because, first of all, I was able to get
Speaker 1: access to some information about that day and that decision
Speaker 1: that has never really come out before. And that's why
Speaker 1: I wanted to start the book. In a car pulling
Speaker 1: out of the private airport in New York, making its
Speaker 1: way through the back roads of Greenwich to the home
Speaker 1: of the man who really Mark Dowley, who helped put
Speaker 1: this together with Maverick, and I just thought this gives
Speaker 1: the reader the opportunity to feel like they're literally in
Speaker 1: the car with Lebron as he's en route to make
Speaker 1: a decision in a part of the country that most
Speaker 1: people have never been to. I mean, most Americans have
Speaker 1: never been to Greenwich, Connecticut. And in a way, it's
Speaker 1: a weird place when you think about it. Why in
Speaker 1: the world would you choose Greenwich to make this announcement.
Speaker 1: It's Knick's country, if anything, but even if you were
Speaker 1: going to go to the Knicks, Greenwich is an odd
Speaker 1: place to go to do this. And so I wanted
Speaker 1: to go there with the reader because I just thought
Speaker 1: it allowed me to show so many things about Lebron
Speaker 1: at that moment in his life. And I just love
Speaker 1: the scenery of them getting out of the car and
Speaker 1: Greenwich at this estate, Maverick and Rich Paul, and they're
Speaker 1: they're flying so high in that moment, they're so happy,
Speaker 1: they're they're so almost in a way there is a
Speaker 1: naivete about what's about to happen, and they're so loose,
Speaker 1: and then in a couple of hours all hell breaks.
Speaker 1: It does take people listening now, because there is so
Speaker 1: much depth to this book, you can give away a
Speaker 1: lot and not give away a third of it. But
Speaker 1: when did they realize something had gone poorly with the decision?
Speaker 1: I think, you know, they started the sense that things
Speaker 1: aren't great immediately after the decision was announced and the
Speaker 1: initially ESPN broadcast had concluded, meaning the live event with
Speaker 1: Jim Gray, and then Lebron had to do an interview
Speaker 1: with Michael Wilbon who was in studio and doing a
Speaker 1: remote interview with Lebron who was still in Greenwich at
Speaker 1: the club, and the questions. One of the questions Wilbon
Speaker 1: asked him was if he could see what was happening
Speaker 1: in Cleveland. They were already burning his jersey, But it's
Speaker 1: not untill later that evening, before they've left Greenwich though,
Speaker 1: to get on a private plane to go to Miami.
Speaker 1: They hung around for a while. They actually went back
Speaker 1: to Dowley's house and they were listening to music and
Speaker 1: hanging out. And then the Dan Gilbert's letter shows up
Speaker 1: on the website and you're starting to go like wow,
Speaker 1: Like the New York Times puts up a story that's
Speaker 1: referring to the evil empire, and this is all happening
Speaker 1: in real time and Twitter works now, right, It's Twitter
Speaker 1: is fairly new at this point, but it works. And
Speaker 1: the tweets are coming from all over the place, not
Speaker 1: just sportspeople, but people in entertainment, late night comedy. Everybody's
Speaker 1: piling on. And so by the time Lebron and his
Speaker 1: inner circle are in the air to fly to Miami,
Speaker 1: they know it's bad. And I love how Rich Paul
Speaker 1: refers to the quietest flight he'd ever been on with
Speaker 1: Lebron and Maverick. So there was a sweepstake, says you
Speaker 1: note to get Lebron. The Knicks had an interesting pitch,
Speaker 1: but Miami's landed. Tell her audience why, and and they're tact,
Speaker 1: which is to me pat Riley's one of the smartest
Speaker 1: guys in league history. Not a shock he hit the
Speaker 1: right notes. Yes, yeah, I love. The reason I love
Speaker 1: the Knicks pitch is because it's so New York and
Speaker 1: it's just so over the top and so inappropriate in
Speaker 1: terms of what you need to lure Lebron to your team.
Speaker 1: Lebron had so much access to fame and glitz and glamour.
Speaker 1: That's not what he was looking for and he wasn't
Speaker 1: looking for a billion dollars. He was looking for rings championships.
Speaker 1: And so New York does this thing where they hire
Speaker 1: a filmmaker who doesn't know anything about basketball. He didn't
Speaker 1: know the difference between a basketball and a golf ball.
Speaker 1: And so he goes out and brings in Jonathan Hawk,
Speaker 1: who knows how to make a sports documentary, and they
Speaker 1: have all the celebrities in New York City lined up,
Speaker 1: from Harvey Weinstein to Reggie Jackson to Alec Baldwin, I mean,
Speaker 1: Robert de Niro, everybody wanted in this documentary. And they
Speaker 1: even got Donald Trump. They went up to Trump Tower
Speaker 1: and got Trump to sit for an interview, and every
Speaker 1: body they interviewed is pitching lebron On White needs to
Speaker 1: come to New York. To me, the best part of
Speaker 1: that whole story, and the smartest thing they did, was
Speaker 1: to go get Tony Soprano out of retirement and to
Speaker 1: bring him in to do a sketch at the end
Speaker 1: of the film, and it's basically Gandelfini getting back in
Speaker 1: that role with Edie Falco. It was brilliant, and I
Speaker 1: told the story through the lens of Jonathan Hawk who
Speaker 1: shot the interview in Tony's apartment, and they pitch him
Speaker 1: and it's basically literally the offer you can't refuse. And
Speaker 1: Lebron thought it was funny because it was it was clever,
Speaker 1: it was funny, but it wasn't right. And then Riley
Speaker 1: comes in and Riley's last and Riley brings in a
Speaker 1: bag of rings and he puts them on the table
Speaker 1: and you know, Lebron asks him what's in there and
Speaker 1: he dumps them out and there is championship rings that
Speaker 1: he's won everywhere, and it's what Lebron wants, and he
Speaker 1: has this really important line to keep the main thing
Speaker 1: the main thing. Lebron didn't know what that was in
Speaker 1: the moment, but Maverick knew what it was because he'd
Speaker 1: read Steve and our Covey's book and certainly understood what
Speaker 1: Riley was saying. And the main thing in Miami with
Speaker 1: pat Riley is winning championships, and he knew that that
Speaker 1: was the main thing for Lebron. And I just thought, wow,
Speaker 1: like these two contrasts, the Knicks and the Heat. So
Speaker 1: the Miami story is four years, two championships. I think
Speaker 1: the arc of many of our lives is the hardships
Speaker 1: come before the titles or the runs. Right, We've all
Speaker 1: struggled in our life. Lebron struggles are the struggles of
Speaker 1: the greatest basketball player ever. The decision ding them a
Speaker 1: little bit. But Miami, Miami felt like it was going
Speaker 1: to work very quickly. You had the smart owner, pat Riley,
Speaker 1: a young, brilliant, young coach. You had d Wade Haslam
Speaker 1: the culture, and then he loses to the Mavericks and
Speaker 1: for the only time in his career looked afraid on
Speaker 1: the court. That was a real turning point for Lebron.
Speaker 1: Talk about that, it's a huge turning point. I would say,
Speaker 1: it's not really a disagreement with you, But I think
Speaker 1: the decision did more in than ding him. Because the
Speaker 1: ramification of the decision. He is the villain of American sports.
Speaker 1: His first year in Miami, he's hated and anyone who
Speaker 1: was in Cleveland. I was not there the night that
Speaker 1: Lebron returned to Cleveland, but I interviewed people who were
Speaker 1: It was violent. I mean it was scary. People who
Speaker 1: were on that team said they were afraid. The security
Speaker 1: in the arena, people that were there to protect the
Speaker 1: Miami players they had never seen or felt anything like
Speaker 1: that at an American sports event. That first year in
Speaker 1: Miami for Lebron, I think was different because Lebron likes
Speaker 1: to be liked and he was hated that year. And
Speaker 1: then on top of that, they were supposed to win
Speaker 1: and they didn't win, and I think that's what plunged
Speaker 1: Lebron into a dark period. The summer after losing to
Speaker 1: Dallas is the darkest period of Lebron's career for him personally,
Speaker 1: and it's really a moment of self discovery where he's
Speaker 1: locked away in Miami. He doesn't want to talk to anybody,
Speaker 1: not family, not friends. He's listening to you certain kinds
Speaker 1: of music, and really when he comes out of that,
Speaker 1: it's interesting when he comes out of that. I just
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that one of the first people
Speaker 1: he saw when he came out of that was Bono
Speaker 1: in Miami, who had come YouTube was there touring, and
Speaker 1: he had some private time with Bono backstage. I just
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting because I was thinking to myself
Speaker 1: as a writer, Bono's probably one of the only people
Speaker 1: on the planet who could actually say in that moment,
Speaker 1: I've been through more than you I know what this
Speaker 1: is like, like, I've been in worse spots than you
Speaker 1: because I've been doing this longer and I'm a world
Speaker 1: around rock star. And I'm sure he didn't say those
Speaker 1: things to Lebron, but there aren't many people Lebron can
Speaker 1: get in a room with who could actually say I've
Speaker 1: been to these places that you're in right now. And
Speaker 1: he comes out of that, and Dwayne Wade has a
Speaker 1: big part of him coming out of that, because that's
Speaker 1: when they have the conversation about this needs to be
Speaker 1: your team. It's sort of like it's okay to take over,
Speaker 1: you need to dominate. This is my city and my
Speaker 1: team in my town, but we're not going to win
Speaker 1: unless you take the reins. And boy, the next season,
Speaker 1: Lebron's the scariest player in the NBA. I mean, everyone's
Speaker 1: afraid of him. You don't want to play this team
Speaker 1: and that guy. And I think the next three years
Speaker 1: to me, those are the scary Lebron years. Let's go
Speaker 1: back to you talk about in the book. There's obviously
Speaker 1: great debate. Lebron now starts stacking up championships in Miami
Speaker 1: and then the Michael Jordan's stuff really starts to become
Speaker 1: a comp and nobody had really ever challenged Michael Jordan.
Speaker 1: It was just Russell early, then Kareem, then Magic. Then
Speaker 1: you know, you kind of got ten years to yourself
Speaker 1: as the greatest player ever. And all of a sudden
Speaker 1: after the second title, people start talking about, Wow, this
Speaker 1: guy is different. Yes, but in his early days in
Speaker 1: high school, Jeff nobody talked about Michael Jordan. Their games
Speaker 1: were different, Their personalities are completely different. One is much
Speaker 1: more hyper aggressive, much more the score not necessary, not
Speaker 1: necessarily ever conciliatory or considering about your feelings. Lebron's comp
Speaker 1: was not Mike, as you note, Yeah it is, because
Speaker 1: it's interesting you reference that high school years. One of
Speaker 1: my favorite scenes in this well, I'm going to say
Speaker 1: two of them, because they're kind of coupled. It's when
Speaker 1: Maverick goes back, he leaves college after one year, right
Speaker 1: realizes he's not going to play in the NBA, goes
Speaker 1: back to Akron to go to school and to work
Speaker 1: with Lebron and help Lebron and navigate those tenuous high
Speaker 1: school years coming up for him, and he starts coaching
Speaker 1: his AAU team and they go to Chicago in the summer,
Speaker 1: and one of the guys from Jordan's Jim, who works
Speaker 1: with Michael Jordan trains with him, approaches Maverick and invites
Speaker 1: him and Lebron to come to Michael's Jim in Chicago,
Speaker 1: and they go. Michael's not there, but they go and
Speaker 1: they check it out, and it's like they've entered that
Speaker 1: sort of celestial space where Michael Jordan trains. It's a
Speaker 1: private place not anybody can go. And other NBA players
Speaker 1: who are active in the league go there to train,
Speaker 1: and remember Michael's retired right now, but they go there.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that Lebron gets to do
Speaker 1: is he gets to scrimmage run with these NBA players,
Speaker 1: guys like Antoine Walker, big time players, big bodies playing
Speaker 1: with a teenager. And for the first time, the floor
Speaker 1: looks different to Lebron, it's a different floor. And that's
Speaker 1: why that chapter is called a different Floor. It's the
Speaker 1: same dimensions of the floor that he plays on at
Speaker 1: Saint Fee's, except everything's different. The passing lanes are more
Speaker 1: narrow because the guys are so much bigger. Their arms
Speaker 1: are longer when they put their arms out. The routes
Speaker 1: to the basket just aren't there that he sees in
Speaker 1: high school games. It's all different for him, and that
Speaker 1: is a huge eye opening experience for him. And one
Speaker 1: thing happens. He can't guard anybody in those scrimmages. They're
Speaker 1: too good, they're too fast, they're too big. He can't
Speaker 1: guard them. But he can score against these guys, which
Speaker 1: is phenomenal. He can score buckets with some of the
Speaker 1: best NBA players and he's only in high school. That's
Speaker 1: really important. And then here's the second part. Later they
Speaker 1: go back there, and they're there and they're about to leave,
Speaker 1: and they go outside and Martin pulls up in a
Speaker 1: red sports car and gets out. Now at this moment,
Speaker 1: Michael knows he's coming out of retirement, but nobody else
Speaker 1: knows that. He hasn't announced it yet, And so he
Speaker 1: gets out. The coolest athlete in the world, gets out
Speaker 1: of the car and approaches Lebron. He knows who Lebron is,
Speaker 1: and Lebron certainly sees who he is. This is his idol,
Speaker 1: this is the guy whose posters are on his bedroom walls.
Speaker 1: It's the guy whose number he wears. And now they're
Speaker 1: in a conversation and Michael invites him back inside and
Speaker 1: they talk, and Michael doesn't give him advice, because Michael's
Speaker 1: not that kind of guy. But it doesn't matter. It's
Speaker 1: what he did give him was he gave him his
Speaker 1: cell phone number, which to me is a lot more
Speaker 1: important than advice because of what it says to Lebron.
Speaker 1: Michael doesn't give his phone number out to anybody. Lebron's
Speaker 1: now one of the few people in America who has
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's cell phone. And when he leaves Chicago that night,
Speaker 1: by the way, Colin, the next day is the first
Speaker 1: day of school at Saint fee Maverick's got to raise
Speaker 1: him home because he's got to be in school the
Speaker 1: next day, and in his pocket he's got Michael Jordan's
Speaker 1: phone number. And he wrote in his journal about that
Speaker 1: and about how cool that experience was. And to me,
Speaker 1: what did Michael think of Lebron in that moment? Did
Speaker 1: he really think that Lebron was actually going to threaten
Speaker 1: him as the potential greatest player of all time? I
Speaker 1: don't know. Probably not, because he was still a kid
Speaker 1: and he was very encouraging to him at that moment.
Speaker 1: But obviously as time goes on and it doesn't take long.
Speaker 1: By the time you get to Game five against Detroit,
Speaker 1: you know, like this guy is actually that guy, like
Speaker 1: he is the future. He is that good and there
Speaker 1: isn't anyone else like him. And so I just think
Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan origin stories with Lebron, they're real, and
Speaker 1: there's some of the most interesting parts of Lebron's story.
Speaker 1: I remember his first game was against Sacramento, and I
Speaker 1: think if I recall, he had like twenty points, you know,
Speaker 1: and did the classic sort of Lebron box score seven
Speaker 1: rebounds tennisis you know, a classic didn't well, he was
Speaker 1: not a great defender early in his NBA career. In
Speaker 1: his game, although he was a freight train, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the finesse and the softness and the three point shooting
Speaker 1: hadn't developed. How badly, because I remember the Spurs being
Speaker 1: dominant and being a rating enemy for the league, like
Speaker 1: the Dynasty was a snooze y. Popovich sometimes wouldn't play
Speaker 1: the best players in TV games. It was like this
Speaker 1: small market sort of combative head coach. How badly did
Speaker 1: the league need Lebron in those first three or four
Speaker 1: years As a story, as a narrative. I think they
Speaker 1: needed him extremely badly, but I think it had less. Yes,
Speaker 1: they obviously needed his talent, and they needed him to
Speaker 1: be legitimate on the court, like a real star, not
Speaker 1: a lot of hype who came in and was kind
Speaker 1: of okay. They needed him to be a really good,
Speaker 1: serious star player his rookie year. But there was something
Speaker 1: they needed more than that. They needed a clean reputation.
Speaker 1: If you remember the status of the league when Lebron
Speaker 1: came in, and it was a mess. There were so
Speaker 1: many negative things about the NBA's image with Alan Iverson,
Speaker 1: with all the off court stuff. There were fights, there
Speaker 1: was the Indiana brawl. In the stands, there was a
Speaker 1: dress code that you know, Stern decided he had to
Speaker 1: impose on the players, which was very controversial. You know,
Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant was arrested for a felony right as Lebron
Speaker 1: is emerging as a young NBA player. What the league
Speaker 1: really needed from Lebron, which to me is an enormous burden,
Speaker 1: is they need a star that you actually want to
Speaker 1: root for. That's what they needed, and he really delivered that.
Speaker 1: I mean, think about the rules that Lebron broke as
Speaker 1: a young player. One of my favorite rules that he broke,
Speaker 1: and he just broke it and didn't care was when
Speaker 1: his firstborn son was old enough to walk, he walks
Speaker 1: across the court during a game. It's a time out,
Speaker 1: but it's a game. He walks across the court, leaves
Speaker 1: his mom's lap, walks across the court, and sits beside
Speaker 1: his dad on the bench in a game. You're not
Speaker 1: supposed to do that. You can't have family members on
Speaker 1: the bench in a game. There's actually a rule that
Speaker 1: prohibits that. The league didn't enforce it with Lebron because
Speaker 1: it's like, wow, like did somebody script that. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's like, that's medicine we need. And so he broke
Speaker 1: rules like that again and again and again, and the
Speaker 1: league didn't slap his hand because actually, this is what
Speaker 1: we need. And Lebron wasn't doing it to help the
Speaker 1: league or to be a certain kind of image. Lebron
Speaker 1: was just being Lebron, like that's who he is. And
Speaker 1: so it's like it was some of the best tonic
Speaker 1: for the NBA at the time. You know, we live
Speaker 1: in a post truth. I mean, it's such a weird
Speaker 1: place we are now. Where I can hand people facts
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter. People are so deeply embedded in
Speaker 1: their opinion. So you know, I've said this through the years,
Speaker 1: is that Lebron wasn't the first person to be mobile,
Speaker 1: but he has changed it so that when players like
Speaker 1: Damian Lillard don't consider moving, or Bradley Beale or Jannis,
Speaker 1: it's considered bad business. You have to consider it that
Speaker 1: loyalty is almost viewed a little bit as a weakness
Speaker 1: unless you can win a title. And I think Lebron
Speaker 1: deserves credit for that. He empowered the player magic arguably
Speaker 1: saved the league. Jordan made it more global. Lebron made
Speaker 1: mobility and business player empowerment. That said, the idea that
Speaker 1: he created super teams is really laughable in your book,
Speaker 1: totally laugh in your book, you actually note, and I
Speaker 1: want you to go into some detail here that there
Speaker 1: was a super team created because of Lebron. Yeah, nobody
Speaker 1: understood super teams more than Pat Riley and Danny Ainge.
Speaker 1: And Ange is up running the Celtics, Riley's down in
Speaker 1: Miami running the Heat. They can't stand each other. They're
Speaker 1: great rivals that go all the way back to the eighties.
Speaker 1: Lakers Celtics rivalries, and now they're running teams and they're
Speaker 1: building super teams. And it's because Ange played on a
Speaker 1: super team in Boston with Bird, McHale, Parrish and Dennis
Speaker 1: Johnson won all that winning that went on, and Riley
Speaker 1: built a super team in LA with Magic and Kareem
Speaker 1: and James Worthy and all those guys. Now they're executives.
Speaker 1: And let's just remember Ange builds a super team in
Speaker 1: Boston before Lebron goes to Miami, right, the whole thing
Speaker 1: with Garnett and Alan and Pierce. What's he doing. He's
Speaker 1: trying to be Lebron. He's trying to make sure that
Speaker 1: the Celtics can beat Lebron because he knows how good
Speaker 1: Lebron is. Then Lebron goes down to Miami and basically,
Speaker 1: with Riley's guidance and helping with the architecture, I mean,
Speaker 1: they assemble a superteam as if this is a new thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, it's funny because in what it
Speaker 1: leads to is the Warriors going out, who already have
Speaker 1: an all star team. Right, they have the Splash Brothers,
Speaker 1: they have Draymond Greene, who is the most underrated great
Speaker 1: player in the NBA at the time, and then they
Speaker 1: got to go get Kevin Durant, why for one, when
Speaker 1: he'son only so they make sure they can actually beat
Speaker 1: the Cavaliers. And so the whole idea that it's Lebron's
Speaker 1: fault is funny because super teams are what have always
Speaker 1: carried the day in the NBA. The Dynasties that preceded
Speaker 1: the Celtics, the Lakers, those were super teams. Michael was
Speaker 1: on a super team and so I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: you take Scottie Pippenham off that team. I mean, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but that's like Michael with the bulls in dealing with
Speaker 1: what Lebron had to do when he was in Cleveland
Speaker 1: and didn't have Kyrie or any other guys. That's what
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, I've noted that before. It's much easier
Speaker 1: to be Magic Johnson inherit Kareem and never leave, or
Speaker 1: go be Michael Jordan and live in a great American
Speaker 1: city in a major market and not leave. Cleveland was neither.
Speaker 1: You didn't have a team, much structure. It's a place.
Speaker 1: I mean, I for years I would ask players their
Speaker 1: least favorite place to play in the NBA, and they
Speaker 1: would mention Cleveland or Sacramento. Yes. So, I've always thought
Speaker 1: the criticism of Lebron that he left if he is
Speaker 1: drafted by the Lakers. Remember was it Kobe drafted by Charlotte. Yes,
Speaker 1: he would have not been loyal. He would loyal because
Speaker 1: he became a Laker. Yes. So let's go to the
Speaker 1: early days of Lebron in Cleveland where they got to
Speaker 1: a finals. We're completely overwhelmed by a much better team
Speaker 1: San Antonio. But early coaches are Mike Brown and Paul Silas.
Speaker 1: We never hear about them. They are lost in the
Speaker 1: story of Lebron. Mike's now doing a fabulous job with Sacramento. Yep,
Speaker 1: let's go back and let's revisit that. Let's let's talk
Speaker 1: Mike Brown, who, by the way, Lebron wasn't a great defender.
Speaker 1: I'm sure Mike deserves some credit for really teaching Lebron
Speaker 1: how to defend in this league. What was their relationship,
Speaker 1: Like Colin, Before I answer that, I, can we say
Speaker 1: something about Silas because you did mention Silas. Yeah. Paul
Speaker 1: Silas to me is I tried to mention as much
Speaker 1: as I include Paul as much as I could. His
Speaker 1: tenure is brief in Cleveland, but to me it's pivotal.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's the coach when Lebron is a rookie,
Speaker 1: and Paul is this much older, seasoned veteran, right, not
Speaker 1: just veteran player, but veteran coach. A lot of Lebron's
Speaker 1: coaches were young guys. Mike Brown, who is proving to
Speaker 1: be a great coach now, when he was coaching Lebron,
Speaker 1: he's not seasoned yet, right, He's very young. He's learning
Speaker 1: how to be a head coach. Lebron has worked with
Speaker 1: a lot of coaches when they were really young and
Speaker 1: then went on to become really good, reputable coaches, but
Speaker 1: when they were with Lebron, not so much. Silas. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, this guy's seen everything. He talked about
Speaker 1: having seen everything, and then he'd say repeatedly that rookie
Speaker 1: year and then something that happened with Lebron that I've
Speaker 1: never seen before, And it's because it was such a
Speaker 1: weird experience, the amount of fame and hype around Lebron.
Speaker 1: But Paul did a good job of I think protecting
Speaker 1: and teaching Lebron. There was a Ricky Davis got traded
Speaker 1: out of there because there was dissension in the locker room.
Speaker 1: Lebron takes the high road as a teenager, doesn't want
Speaker 1: to criticize any of his teammates, doesn't want to say
Speaker 1: negative things. The reporters were baiting him to say things,
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't. He just talked about how he got
Speaker 1: along with everybody silence. Knew what was going on, and
Speaker 1: there's a reason that they made personnel changes in a
Speaker 1: rookie year, and they traded veterans to get the team
Speaker 1: in better shape for Lebron. That's what I want to
Speaker 1: say about Paul. I think Paul had a big role
Speaker 1: that gets understated. And as far as Mike Brown goes,
Speaker 1: I mean, look, Mike was learning. You know, Gilbert liked him,
Speaker 1: Gilbert hired him. I think he saw something in Brown
Speaker 1: and now it looks like, well, geez, what he saw
Speaker 1: is actually real. But you know, Lebron's not patient. He's
Speaker 1: not a patient athlete. I'm not saying that to criticize him.
Speaker 1: Tom Brady's not patient either. There's a reason he's throwing
Speaker 1: stuff around on the sideline and yelling at people you
Speaker 1: are better than everybody else when you dream about what
Speaker 1: is going to happen on the court. When you see
Speaker 1: things that no one else sees, you get impatient really fast.
Speaker 1: And so was there a lot of that when Mike
Speaker 1: was coaching and learning how to be a head coach. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I think in some ways. You know, on one hand,
Speaker 1: Lebron is really easy to coach. Mike Schevski will tell
Speaker 1: you like an incredibly coachable player. Coach drew his high
Speaker 1: school coach, very coachable player. I think when Mike Brown
Speaker 1: was the coach, I'm not sure how much coaching Mike
Speaker 1: Brown did of Lebron. And I think part of that is, Look,
Speaker 1: I can't speak for what Mike Brown really felt at
Speaker 1: that time, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was
Speaker 1: a little reluctant to try to coach Lebron because you know, like,
Speaker 1: what am I going to say? Like I don't have
Speaker 1: the best player in the league on my team. I
Speaker 1: got the best player on the planet on my team.
Speaker 1: I mean, what am I going to really tell this guy?
Speaker 1: And I think that that Paul Silas didn't have to
Speaker 1: worry about that, he's Paul Silas, but Mike Brown different,
Speaker 1: and I just think that's It's just part of the
Speaker 1: reality of what was happening at the time. I have
Speaker 1: a feeling if he was his coach today, it'd be different.
Speaker 1: When do you believe Lebron truly realized I'm the best
Speaker 1: basketball player currently on the planet. I think he knew
Speaker 1: it way before he left Cleveland the first time, way
Speaker 1: before he left Cleveland the first time. So do I yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't say that he felt that way
Speaker 1: the minute he entered the league. One of the things
Speaker 1: about Lebron is he is a student. Like if if
Speaker 1: Lebron could get a PhD in history, it would be
Speaker 1: in basketball history. He actually studied the grades like he
Speaker 1: knows their pedigree right. And he came into the league
Speaker 1: very respectful of players that were before him, including veterans
Speaker 1: who were in the league, guys like Kobe right who
Speaker 1: most people considered Kobe the greatest player in the game.
Speaker 1: When Lebron entered the league. Kobe was the guy Michael
Speaker 1: had just retired, and we all know Michael's last year
Speaker 1: wasn't a banner year for Michael. But Kobe was at
Speaker 1: the pinnacle when Lebron entered, and there weren't many people
Speaker 1: saying in Lebron's rookie year that he was better than Kobe.
Speaker 1: But guys like Jerry West, they knew he was gonna
Speaker 1: be better than Kobe. They all knew that because they
Speaker 1: could all see it. Danny Ainge knew that, pat Riley
Speaker 1: knew that, and they all looked at Kobe as the
Speaker 1: greatest player on earth at the time, but they all
Speaker 1: knew that Lebron was going to go past him. And
Speaker 1: so the point in time, the moment, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know when that moment was, but
Speaker 1: I know it was before he left Cleveland the first time.
Speaker 1: Jeff Benedict one final question. I've said this before that
Speaker 1: Michael could be petty and spiteful, but he made good decisions.
Speaker 1: He leaned on his mother, David Falk, David Stern, Phil Jackson.
Speaker 1: He really made good decisions. Similarly Lebron, who came in
Speaker 1: much younger to the NBA than Michael. He didn't have
Speaker 1: the stewardship of Dean Smith for years and understanding you
Speaker 1: know that that basketball factory in Carolina, and but he
Speaker 1: was very smart with the media, very respectful of the sport.
Speaker 1: Has made very few mistakes. I've always said there's three
Speaker 1: stages for the all time greats in basketball. The show
Speaker 1: off stage where Lebron would chase people down and block
Speaker 1: stuff off the backboard, the okay, enough of me, I
Speaker 1: want to win rings and be respected stage, and then
Speaker 1: you pivot to the mogul stage, which is everything set.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do the best thing for me and
Speaker 1: LA is that move. He has a very strong relationship
Speaker 1: with jay Z Lebron does. How formidable is that decision?
Speaker 1: How much of Lebron's journey and handling of business do
Speaker 1: you credit jay Z? Let's go into that relationship. Well,
Speaker 1: so look in terms of crediting his unparalleled business experience
Speaker 1: and success, I take that less from jay Z. I
Speaker 1: think jay Z deserves a ton of credit on some
Speaker 1: other things. But on the business side, I think what
Speaker 1: Lebron's done very well. It starts with the lawyer that
Speaker 1: he hired. His mother really hired. Credit to her. Lebron
Speaker 1: hired a lawyer when he was in high school because
Speaker 1: he had issues with you know, suspended his last year
Speaker 1: for some stupid thing with a you know, the hummer
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. That lawyer that he hired was
Speaker 1: a very smart business Lawyer's the smartest lawyer in Cleveland. Arguably,
Speaker 1: it's the beginning of Lebron starting to surround himself with older, mature,
Speaker 1: wise people who know about business and know about money management.
Speaker 1: And really, in short order, when Lebron fires his agent,
Speaker 1: everybody thought initially, holy cow, that's a stupid thing to do.
Speaker 1: Here's where the train goes off the rails. It was
Speaker 1: a brilliant decision because he was hiring people to manage
Speaker 1: his money, to manage his affairs. He was working with
Speaker 1: lawyers and financiers who were introducing him to people who
Speaker 1: were teaching Lebron about the big picture about financial security.
Speaker 1: He took the time to go meet with Warren Buffett.
Speaker 1: Maverick went with him. These weren't meetings to go see
Speaker 1: a picture and tell the world, look who I met today.
Speaker 1: Lebron was actually really trying to find out how to
Speaker 1: build long term financial security. They were talking. They were
Speaker 1: using words like equity, when most athletes don't really know
Speaker 1: what equity is or how to even get it. Lebron
Speaker 1: was in his early twenties and he was learning about it.
Speaker 1: He knew he didn't know, but he wanted to learn.
Speaker 1: And Maverick was the same way. They were hungry, they
Speaker 1: were like sponges, And so I think that is what
Speaker 1: set Lebron up so early. He went away from oh,
Speaker 1: I'll just do a commercial and sit in this car
Speaker 1: and I'll get money from Chevrolet. Or I'll go to
Speaker 1: General Mills and you can put my face on a
Speaker 1: cereal box and I'll take some money for the commercial.
Speaker 1: Lebron got disinterested in that really early and got interested
Speaker 1: in how do I own a piece of this, how
Speaker 1: do I build long term equity, how do I own things?
Speaker 1: And that's I think the brilliance of that. But I
Speaker 1: think where jay Z was so instrumental with Lebron on
Speaker 1: his He was older than Lebron, not not way older,
Speaker 1: but he was old enough older that Lebron could look
Speaker 1: up to him. Not just because he was a great
Speaker 1: artist who made music that Lebron liked, all of which
Speaker 1: was true, but because he could see someone who'd been
Speaker 1: through some scrapes and some scraps, came out on the
Speaker 1: other side and was building a business. He didn't just
Speaker 1: want to make music. He was building a business. He
Speaker 1: was building a record label, he was he was building
Speaker 1: a clothing line. He was building nightclubs. He was building things,
Speaker 1: and he was interested in politics. He was interested in
Speaker 1: more than just music. And I think that look and
Speaker 1: he realized that jay Z wasn't interested in him just
Speaker 1: because he was famous or just because he was a
Speaker 1: great athlete. Jay Z actually was interested in him as
Speaker 1: a man, as a young man, and I think there
Speaker 1: was some reciprocity there between them, and I think that's
Speaker 1: why the relationship was never too cool guys who were
Speaker 1: famous sitting around hanging out because famous people like to
Speaker 1: be around famous people. They were actually friends, they were
Speaker 1: real friends, and so I thought that was most obvious
Speaker 1: when the Brooklyn Nets were recruiting Lebron and jay Z
Speaker 1: was a part owner of the Nets, and the friendship
Speaker 1: didn't get in the way. That's when you know it's
Speaker 1: a real friendship. It wasn't transactional. He was respectful of
Speaker 1: respectful of what was best for Lebron. You know, it's
Speaker 1: interesting Michael stayed away from politics. Tiger Woods similarly has
Speaker 1: steered clear of it. Lebron tends to ingratiate himself with
Speaker 1: people and groups. He didn't like being a villain in Miami.
Speaker 1: But there is a point with Donald Trump where Lebron
Speaker 1: made decisions. I'm going to take a stand here. I'm
Speaker 1: going to have a strong opinion. Take us to that
Speaker 1: pivot point with Lebron. Of the many in his career,
Speaker 1: his personality early would not be combative. That's not really
Speaker 1: who he is. Michael Jordan, you could see being combative. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So let's take us to the point in Lebron's arc
Speaker 1: where he makes a decision that he knows full well
Speaker 1: will get pushback and he's comfortable with it, taking on Trump.
Speaker 1: For Lebron, the shift of politics and confrontation is not
Speaker 1: an immediate one. It's a long one. Lebron, by nature
Speaker 1: is not confrontational. Even on the basketball court. Lebron doesn't
Speaker 1: getting fights. You know, he's toughest. Yeah, he's the strongest,
Speaker 1: biggest guy out there, and he's a peacemaker. He doesn't
Speaker 1: like fighting, you know, never, not in high school. Never.
Speaker 1: And he's certainly not confrontational you know, out in the world.
Speaker 1: And so for many years in his career he was
Speaker 1: very a political meaning just agnostic toward it. He avoid
Speaker 1: completely somewhat like Michael. I'm not saying he was using
Speaker 1: Michael as a role model in that regard. But he
Speaker 1: was very standoffish on politics that Michael felt more like
Speaker 1: that was a business decision. Lebron, it's a personality reality, Yes,
Speaker 1: it's exactly. And he didn't feel comfortable that he knew
Speaker 1: enough to weigh in. And that is evident with the
Speaker 1: Olympics in China, where he was pressured immensely to weigh
Speaker 1: in on China's human rights record, and Lebron wouldn't. His
Speaker 1: whole team signed a letter speaking out against the Chinese government.
Speaker 1: Lebron was the only player, well one other player that
Speaker 1: didn't that didn't do it either, but Lebron was the
Speaker 1: guy who didn't sign it. But it's interesting Colin that
Speaker 1: it was later that year Barack Obama's running for president,
Speaker 1: and later that year Jay Z does talk to Lebron
Speaker 1: about the significance of Barack's candidacy end up joining him
Speaker 1: at a concert, a benefit concert to support Barrock. That
Speaker 1: is the beginning of Lebron entering the space of politics.
Speaker 1: He stuck his toe in. He didn't jump in, but
Speaker 1: he put his toe in right and it felt good.
Speaker 1: You know. There were no ramifications from that, There was
Speaker 1: no big public outcry because he did that. And then
Speaker 1: once Obama was elected more than any American president history.
Speaker 1: He embraced NBA players. He likes basketball. He loves basketball.
Speaker 1: He started inviting these guys to the White House, not
Speaker 1: just when they won championships, but when he had meaningful
Speaker 1: things he wanted to bring them in on. And Lebron
Speaker 1: did things like PSAs for his healthcare plan, you know,
Speaker 1: and the Republicans got mad at Lebron for doing that,
Speaker 1: and that's when it starts to build. And then when
Speaker 1: you start to have the I can't breathe moment for
Speaker 1: Lebron when he wears the black T shirt onto the
Speaker 1: floor of a game, that's when he really started to
Speaker 1: turn up to ten. Now this is all way before Trump.
Speaker 1: Trump is not even a candidate yet. And that's why
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Colin, it's it's important to remember these are
Speaker 1: steps Lebron takes. He's very careful. He doesn't just launch
Speaker 1: into something willy nilly and just start firing from the hip.
Speaker 1: He moves into this space gradually. And I think that
Speaker 1: Barack Obama was an incredible teacher, as was the first Lady.
Speaker 1: They taught Lebron things not by what they said, but
Speaker 1: by what they showed. He was around them. They were
Speaker 1: great models. Here is the highest profile black couple in
Speaker 1: the world. Talk about pressure in America, the kind of
Speaker 1: abuse they took, the criticism they took in the United
Speaker 1: States just for the color of their skin and being
Speaker 1: in the White House, Like, how dare Barack Obama saying?
Speaker 1: Do some of the things he was doing? Run saw
Speaker 1: this and I think admired the way they carried themselves.
Speaker 1: He is modeling and then stepping out. And by the
Speaker 1: time Trump gets there, he's very disciplined. In the campaign.
Speaker 1: He campaigned for Hillary, but he never said critical things
Speaker 1: about Trump. He was very careful. He tried very hard
Speaker 1: not to it. He didn't attack Trump at all. But
Speaker 1: eventually when Trump wins and he didn't think Trump would win,
Speaker 1: and Trump wins in Ohio, I mean, he knows it's
Speaker 1: only a matter of time. This is going to get
Speaker 1: really ugly. And it didn't take long. And what it
Speaker 1: really took to push lebron over the edge was I mean,
Speaker 1: remember right before the election when the tape was leaked
Speaker 1: of him, of Trump saying all those vile things about women,
Speaker 1: and then he said, wow, it's just locker room talk.
Speaker 1: In that moment, Lebron was the first and only major
Speaker 1: athlete to step up and say, wait a minute, that's
Speaker 1: not locker room talk. That's not how any of the
Speaker 1: men talk in my locker room. We don't talk about
Speaker 1: we have wives, we have daughters, we don't talk like that.
Speaker 1: That to me, was a salvo. He didn't attack Trump,
Speaker 1: but he made it really clear like that was a
Speaker 1: shot across the bat, like I'm not going to be
Speaker 1: quiet if this guy attacks us. Because that wasn't That
Speaker 1: wasn't an attack on Lebron. It was an attack on
Speaker 1: all professional athletes who are men. When he said that's
Speaker 1: locker room talking, it's like all those guys are like this,
Speaker 1: And Lebron stepped up and said, no, no, we're not
Speaker 1: like that. It's a warning shot. And then comes the
Speaker 1: attack on Steph Curry like he's not going to invite
Speaker 1: him to the White House, and that's when you get
Speaker 1: the U bum treat tweet and that you bum tweet.
Speaker 1: Lebron didn't think about it very long. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: all you have to do to trust me, just look
Speaker 1: at the time stamps on the tweets. Right his comes
Speaker 1: out and here comes Lebron right behind him. Why because
Speaker 1: he attacked Trump's friend. He didn't attack Lebron. He attacked
Speaker 1: actually attacked Lebron's rival, the guy who's going against in
Speaker 1: the finals. He attacked that guy. And then Lebron was
Speaker 1: all in. And as soon as he was all in,
Speaker 1: so was everybody else. I mean, he when he came through,
Speaker 1: it's like he broke the gates down and then everybody
Speaker 1: ran in behind him. Yeah, but it really is a
Speaker 1: significant shift in confidence growth. Remember I had Barack Obama.
Speaker 1: I had a good fortune of twice having him live
Speaker 1: on radio. We were very lucky. He chose Andy Katz
Speaker 1: and myself Wow a couple of times. I always felt
Speaker 1: so honored. And I remember asking the president a question.
Speaker 1: I said, you know, you're the first president in American
Speaker 1: history to face the vile nature of social media. It's
Speaker 1: it's at its best, quirky and unique. At its worst,
Speaker 1: it's ugly and threatening. Know whether the President's face that,
Speaker 1: and our President Obama gave a very interesting, you know,
Speaker 1: as you suspect, a very thoughtful, mindful comment on it.
Speaker 1: But you know, Lebron is also an argument to be made.
Speaker 1: Is our first NBA superstar who in his ten year
Speaker 1: prime faced social media. Michael Jordan, I swear to god
Speaker 1: he never missed a shot. If you I've never seen
Speaker 1: a miss jumper from Michael Jordan. So and Kobe for
Speaker 1: parts of his career really didn't face a lot of
Speaker 1: the social media, although by the time the race trial
Speaker 1: it was, it was really a part of it. But
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we forget Lebron has faced this headwind
Speaker 1: of negativity. Now all of us face it, But I
Speaker 1: don't know how I would have handled it at twenty
Speaker 1: four years old as a sportscaster getting this blowback. Now,
Speaker 1: I roll my eyes at it and warn my kids
Speaker 1: about it. But for Lebron to live through it knowing
Speaker 1: full well, Jeff, when he would put you bum by
Speaker 1: that time, he knew the blowback he was going to get,
Speaker 1: even perhaps in his own arena or state. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's true. And I think to me, look, you always
Speaker 1: get in trouble when you start making comparisons of athletes
Speaker 1: from different generations and eras, and so I'm I'm always
Speaker 1: loath to do that when it's a comparison about like
Speaker 1: on the field stuff, or on the court or on
Speaker 1: the course. But when you come off the court and
Speaker 1: you start looking at the athletes who really made a
Speaker 1: difference in things that really matter. You talk about Muhammed Ali,
Speaker 1: and you talk about Arthur Ashe and Kareem Abdul Jabbar,
Speaker 1: Jim Brown, some of the guys who really took risks.
Speaker 1: I mean, Ali risked everything. I mean he literally risked
Speaker 1: his belt in his freedom. So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: compare Lebron to Muhammed Ali because that would be I think,
Speaker 1: probably inappropriate. But if you put Lebron in time, in
Speaker 1: space that he lives in, this guy has literally a
Speaker 1: billion reasons to not step into that arena and take
Speaker 1: on the president United States. It's just so much easier
Speaker 1: to not do that. You know, if you do that,
Speaker 1: half the country is suddenly going to hate you, and
Speaker 1: it's a different kind of hate than you had in
Speaker 1: twenty ten with the decision that was all sports driven.
Speaker 1: This is something different and the country had changed in
Speaker 1: six years. It's a different country now, And if you
Speaker 1: do that, it's like the gloves are off and suddenly
Speaker 1: you now represent something else. And I think Lebron was
Speaker 1: very well aware that he's too aware to not know that,
Speaker 1: and he did it anyway. And I think the reason
Speaker 1: I think it's worth saying that is for this simple thing.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many athletes I have talked to,
Speaker 1: both in and outside the scope of reporting on the book.
Speaker 1: So I've talked. I've talked to plenty of athletes, not
Speaker 1: in my capacity as writing Lebron's biography, who told me
Speaker 1: unsolicited how that decision by Lebron to do that, but
Speaker 1: the president made it easier for them to speak out
Speaker 1: and made them more comfortable and unafraid to open their mouth.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's hard to underestimate the impact
Speaker 1: that Lebron had on social justice and athletes taking a
Speaker 1: stand on issues that really matter, like violence, police violence,
Speaker 1: and racism and poverty and all these different things. Because
Speaker 1: the greatest athlete on the planet decided he could do it, well,
Speaker 1: then now it's okay for me to do it. And
Speaker 1: that's what's really different. And who else could have got
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan to put out a statement in support of Lebron.
Speaker 1: It took that because Trump said I like Mike, and
Speaker 1: Michael then finally said, well, I'm impressed with Lebron. I
Speaker 1: mean that was a big deal to me, a really
Speaker 1: big deal. Yeah, And it goes against his personality pattern
Speaker 1: just a few years before that, which I think is
Speaker 1: such a redeemable quality as that Lebron. I always said
Speaker 1: this about Tiger Woods and Oprah. Oprah had the number
Speaker 1: one show in television. I worked at an NBC affiliate,
Speaker 1: and she decided it's not good enough. I'm going to
Speaker 1: separate from We're not going to do topics. We're going
Speaker 1: to do a more life improvement ethereal show. And her
Speaker 1: ratings initially dipped and then they went up. Tiger Woods,
Speaker 1: number one golfer in the world, changed clubs to be
Speaker 1: the best and risk it by taking big swings that
Speaker 1: could hurt your brand. Oprah, Tiger Lebron have done it.
Speaker 1: And it's a very shortlist of people willing, knowing full
Speaker 1: well you can lose fans, audience, brands, money. I have
Speaker 1: such respect for those people that take chances when they're
Speaker 1: at the top. Yeah. It's easy to take the big
Speaker 1: swing when you're chasing. Yeah, not when you're at the top,
Speaker 1: to change golf clubs, to go political, to change your
Speaker 1: entire show, ye or direction. Yeah. Jeff Benedict, this is
Speaker 1: his the author of sixteen books, folks. That is a
Speaker 1: lot of books and that is a lot of research
Speaker 1: behind those glasses you are looking at there is there
Speaker 1: are compartments of knowledge. I am jealous. I'm not equipped
Speaker 1: with The book is called Lebron They're so It's so rich.
Speaker 1: It just resonates with so many unique stories, the kind
Speaker 1: of depth I don't provide on a daily show he
Speaker 1: does here. Just so profoundly thankful that you took time
Speaker 1: for us, because I know you do a lot of
Speaker 1: these and I really enjoyed the last hour, Jeff, I
Speaker 1: really did. Thank you so much. You do a great interview. Colin,
Speaker 1: I don't come on anytime. Thanks for such a great
Speaker 1: conversation the volume. Make sure to check out The Draymond
Speaker 1: Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the volume because
Speaker 1: one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective
Speaker 1: understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like
Speaker 1: Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download The
Speaker 1: Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcasts, only on
Speaker 1: the Volume podcast Network.