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Speaker 1: The volume. All right, welcome in to a Wednesday morning

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Speaker 1: podcast that was ugly as hell. So the Lakers missed

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Speaker 1: ten of their first eleven shots, didn't play great defense

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Speaker 1: for most of the night, twenty turnovers, shot forty one

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Speaker 1: percent from the floor, Lebron inexplicably struggled with inbounds passes,

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Speaker 1: but they hold on to win in overtime despite a

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Speaker 1: weird ad foul at the end of regulation one oh two.

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Speaker 1: So it's a win. You know, they're not a great

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Speaker 1: offensive team, and it's a little dispiriting that in year

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Speaker 1: twenty they still need Lebron to really carry them down

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Speaker 1: the stretch of a lot of games. Eighty was okay,

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Speaker 1: mostly good. And what the Lakers did last night, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this, they're not a great offensive team.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they protect the rim, they initiate a lot

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Speaker 1: of contacts, so they get to the free throw line,

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Speaker 1: and last night they were twenty two or twenty four

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Speaker 1: from the free throw line. That's what they did really well.

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Speaker 1: They took advantage at the stripe and that was the difference.

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Speaker 1: And they're a team Minnesota relied. Carl Anthony Towns had

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Speaker 1: a good night, but they relied on a lot of

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Speaker 1: jump shots, and the Lakers tend to drive, create contact

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Speaker 1: and get to the free throw line. They played very poorly.

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Speaker 1: This is they just weren't terribly engaged. And for the

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Speaker 1: Lakers to win, you generally know you're gonna get about

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Speaker 1: twenty six to twenty eight from Anthony Davis. In Laker wins,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get about twenty six points from Lebron James,

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Speaker 1: and then you need a third guy to step up.

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Speaker 1: That's usually the recipe for winning. You play some good defense,

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Speaker 1: you get a third guy to step up offensively. Austin

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Speaker 1: Reeves wasn't terribly dynamic, and Dennis Shooter had a couple

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Speaker 1: of big shots big three at the end of regulation,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't really have a third guy step up

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Speaker 1: and give them that twenty twenty one points they need

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Speaker 1: in most wins. But shorthanded Minnesota just ran out of

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Speaker 1: gas late, hit a lot of shots early. Mike Conney

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Speaker 1: was red hot again. Carl Anthony Town's played well. But

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Speaker 1: this is a Laker team that there's a certain formula

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Speaker 1: they have to have to win, and that is Anthony

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Speaker 1: Davis has got to dominate the inside. Lebron has to

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Speaker 1: be engaged in the second half. You can't ask for

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Speaker 1: Lebron at this point in his career to give you

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Speaker 1: thirty nine engaged minutes. He tends to settle into a

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Speaker 1: game after about ten minutes twelve minutes. He didn't start

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Speaker 1: quickly on most nights, he certainly didn't in this one.

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Speaker 1: The Lakers as a hold and shoot the ball particularly

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Speaker 1: well early, fell behind and just kind of sputtered, But

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Speaker 1: you kind of felt the entire way like they would

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Speaker 1: finally Lebron would finally kind of pick it up and

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Speaker 1: carry them down the stretch. He did, didn't play great

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Speaker 1: down the stretch, had a couple of very bizarrely bad

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Speaker 1: Lebron turnovers, but it was good enough to win. This

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Speaker 1: is kind of what I talked about with this Laker

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Speaker 1: team in March Madness. I think they'd be a handful

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Speaker 1: because they're physical, they can defend the rim, they'll get

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Speaker 1: to the free throw line. Darven Ham's a good defensive coach.

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Speaker 1: But if you're asking this team to win a beauty

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Speaker 1: contest and to get easy baskets, and generally teams that

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Speaker 1: win championships, they've got shot makers or playmakers or both,

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Speaker 1: and they get some easy baskets. You know, you never

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Speaker 1: quite know who's going to be the third scorer for

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Speaker 1: the Lakers, So it's it's against good teams. If you

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Speaker 1: look at how they've played lately, I think they've won

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Speaker 1: ten of twelve. You know, they've beaten a lot of

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Speaker 1: average teams or shorthanded teams. They're not pretty. Baskets don't

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Speaker 1: come easy. Tonight it's a great example of you know,

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Speaker 1: it was just kind of an ugly win, and you

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Speaker 1: got to feel good about that. They don't win this

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Speaker 1: game on the road, they wanted at home, they needed overtime.

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Speaker 1: But it's kind of it's kind of the way they're

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Speaker 1: going to have to win. Just treat every game it's

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Speaker 1: like a March Madness one and done. Play with urgency.

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Speaker 1: They're not talented enough offensively to have really really off nights.

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Speaker 1: I mean, again, they won that game tonight at the

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Speaker 1: free throw line. They hit their free throws, but they

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Speaker 1: had twenty turnovers, didn't shoot the ball particularly well, didn't

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Speaker 1: have a third score. So this is kind of the

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Speaker 1: way it's going to work. Can they beat a good

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Speaker 1: team like Memphis four times? I think they can. In

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Speaker 1: the first playoff series, I don't think they can extend

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Speaker 1: it to a second playoff series win and a third

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Speaker 1: I just think you're asking too much of an old

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Speaker 1: guy and an often hurt guy and Anthony Davis. But

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Speaker 1: Crypto Arena was rocking. You know, it was really funny.

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Speaker 1: In the first game, Atlanta played with a ton of urgency,

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Speaker 1: jumped on top of Miami, and again Miami, like the Lakers,

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Speaker 1: baskets come hard. They're not a pretty offensive team, and

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Speaker 1: they just didn't have enough offensively in the tank to

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Speaker 1: overcome the deficit. The Lakers did mostly because you know,

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Speaker 1: Lebron engineers to come back, and they hit a couple

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Speaker 1: of big threes. You know, when you were watching this

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Speaker 1: game tonight, your first takeaway is, God, this is really

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Speaker 1: hard to stomach. Just can we bury the tape. This

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Speaker 1: is what it's going to look like in the playoffs

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Speaker 1: for this team. Defend, get to the line, hit your

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Speaker 1: free throws. This is what they're gonna look like. They're

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Speaker 1: not going to be pretty because you start looking in

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Speaker 1: the West. Now, Phoenix with KD now has some length,

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Speaker 1: fewer easy baskets. Golden State, Wiggins is back, Gary Payton's back.

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Speaker 1: They can defend. Now start looking at some of these

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Speaker 1: teams you can match up with in the West. Memphis

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Speaker 1: gonna play real defense. This is what it's going to

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Speaker 1: look like. Little choppy, little ugly close need lebron down

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Speaker 1: the stretch and hit your free throws. So it's a win.

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Speaker 1: It's an ugly one. And that's a good segue for

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Speaker 1: us into our guest today and the Calling Coward podcast.

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Speaker 1: The NBA Playoffs are upon us. Twenty teams get in

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Speaker 1: got to talk to Jeff Benedict after he finishes another

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Speaker 1: absolutely consumable book. You know, he wrote The Dynasty, the

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Speaker 1: Insight on the New England Patriots, which is soon to

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Speaker 1: be a documentary on Apple TV. It was tremendous. He

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Speaker 1: co wrote the book with my friend armand Kitayan Tiger Woods.

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Speaker 1: And now the new book is Lebron. And it's the

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Speaker 1: kind of in depth reporting and context that you just

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Speaker 1: don't get on, certainly on shows like mine, but you

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Speaker 1: don't even get in like a magazine article of some

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Speaker 1: renowned It's such quality reporting. And I thought I knew

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Speaker 1: just about everything about Lebron, but the details and the

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Speaker 1: digging here is so fun. You start the book. The

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Speaker 1: topic is the decision, which for years I defended Lebron on.

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Speaker 1: David Stern argued with me, I'm like, listen, he gave

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars of the Boys and Girls Club, give

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Speaker 1: me a break and Stern, as you know, appalled is

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Speaker 1: too strong but didn't like it. So let's you start

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Speaker 1: the book there. Maverick Carter, who I know very well

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Speaker 1: consider a friend, had some leverage in creating this. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back to the decision. People may just remember the

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Speaker 1: Jim Gray interview. It's quick. How did it land for Lebron?

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Speaker 1: Talk about the genesis of it? Well, it's it's fantastic

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Speaker 1: because Lebron had been he was being courted for a

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Speaker 1: year or longer by a handful of teams that were

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Speaker 1: pulling out all the stops to get him. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it was the question not just in the NBA, but

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Speaker 1: the big question in sports now that summer was where

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Speaker 1: is Lebron gonna go? Or is he going to stay

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland? And the reason I decided to open there

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Speaker 1: is because, first of all, I was able to get

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Speaker 1: access to some information about that day and that decision

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Speaker 1: that has never really come out before. And that's why

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Speaker 1: I wanted to start the book. In a car pulling

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Speaker 1: out of the private airport in New York, making its

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Speaker 1: way through the back roads of Greenwich to the home

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Speaker 1: of the man who really Mark Dowley, who helped put

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Speaker 1: this together with Maverick, and I just thought this gives

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Speaker 1: the reader the opportunity to feel like they're literally in

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Speaker 1: the car with Lebron as he's en route to make

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Speaker 1: a decision in a part of the country that most

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Speaker 1: people have never been to. I mean, most Americans have

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Speaker 1: never been to Greenwich, Connecticut. And in a way, it's

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Speaker 1: a weird place when you think about it. Why in

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Speaker 1: the world would you choose Greenwich to make this announcement.

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Speaker 1: It's Knick's country, if anything, but even if you were

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Speaker 1: going to go to the Knicks, Greenwich is an odd

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Speaker 1: place to go to do this. And so I wanted

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Speaker 1: to go there with the reader because I just thought

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Speaker 1: it allowed me to show so many things about Lebron

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Speaker 1: at that moment in his life. And I just love

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Speaker 1: the scenery of them getting out of the car and

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Speaker 1: Greenwich at this estate, Maverick and Rich Paul, and they're

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Speaker 1: they're flying so high in that moment, they're so happy,

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Speaker 1: they're they're so almost in a way there is a

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Speaker 1: naivete about what's about to happen, and they're so loose,

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Speaker 1: and then in a couple of hours all hell breaks.

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Speaker 1: It does take people listening now, because there is so

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Speaker 1: much depth to this book, you can give away a

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Speaker 1: lot and not give away a third of it. But

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Speaker 1: when did they realize something had gone poorly with the decision?

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, they started the sense that things

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Speaker 1: aren't great immediately after the decision was announced and the

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Speaker 1: initially ESPN broadcast had concluded, meaning the live event with

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Speaker 1: Jim Gray, and then Lebron had to do an interview

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Speaker 1: with Michael Wilbon who was in studio and doing a

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Speaker 1: remote interview with Lebron who was still in Greenwich at

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Speaker 1: the club, and the questions. One of the questions Wilbon

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Speaker 1: asked him was if he could see what was happening

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland. They were already burning his jersey, But it's

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Speaker 1: not untill later that evening, before they've left Greenwich though,

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Speaker 1: to get on a private plane to go to Miami.

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Speaker 1: They hung around for a while. They actually went back

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Speaker 1: to Dowley's house and they were listening to music and

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Speaker 1: hanging out. And then the Dan Gilbert's letter shows up

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Speaker 1: on the website and you're starting to go like wow,

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Speaker 1: Like the New York Times puts up a story that's

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Speaker 1: referring to the evil empire, and this is all happening

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Speaker 1: in real time and Twitter works now, right, It's Twitter

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Speaker 1: is fairly new at this point, but it works. And

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Speaker 1: the tweets are coming from all over the place, not

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Speaker 1: just sportspeople, but people in entertainment, late night comedy. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: piling on. And so by the time Lebron and his

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Speaker 1: inner circle are in the air to fly to Miami,

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Speaker 1: they know it's bad. And I love how Rich Paul

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Speaker 1: refers to the quietest flight he'd ever been on with

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Speaker 1: Lebron and Maverick. So there was a sweepstake, says you

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Speaker 1: note to get Lebron. The Knicks had an interesting pitch,

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Speaker 1: but Miami's landed. Tell her audience why, and and they're tact,

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Speaker 1: which is to me pat Riley's one of the smartest

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Speaker 1: guys in league history. Not a shock he hit the

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Speaker 1: right notes. Yes, yeah, I love. The reason I love

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Speaker 1: the Knicks pitch is because it's so New York and

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Speaker 1: it's just so over the top and so inappropriate in

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Speaker 1: terms of what you need to lure Lebron to your team.

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Speaker 1: Lebron had so much access to fame and glitz and glamour.

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Speaker 1: That's not what he was looking for and he wasn't

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Speaker 1: looking for a billion dollars. He was looking for rings championships.

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Speaker 1: And so New York does this thing where they hire

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Speaker 1: a filmmaker who doesn't know anything about basketball. He didn't

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Speaker 1: know the difference between a basketball and a golf ball.

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Speaker 1: And so he goes out and brings in Jonathan Hawk,

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Speaker 1: who knows how to make a sports documentary, and they

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Speaker 1: have all the celebrities in New York City lined up,

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Speaker 1: from Harvey Weinstein to Reggie Jackson to Alec Baldwin, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Robert de Niro, everybody wanted in this documentary. And they

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Speaker 1: even got Donald Trump. They went up to Trump Tower

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Speaker 1: and got Trump to sit for an interview, and every

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Speaker 1: body they interviewed is pitching lebron On White needs to

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Speaker 1: come to New York. To me, the best part of

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Speaker 1: that whole story, and the smartest thing they did, was

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Speaker 1: to go get Tony Soprano out of retirement and to

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Speaker 1: bring him in to do a sketch at the end

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Speaker 1: of the film, and it's basically Gandelfini getting back in

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Speaker 1: that role with Edie Falco. It was brilliant, and I

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Speaker 1: told the story through the lens of Jonathan Hawk who

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Speaker 1: shot the interview in Tony's apartment, and they pitch him

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Speaker 1: and it's basically literally the offer you can't refuse. And

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Speaker 1: Lebron thought it was funny because it was it was clever,

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Speaker 1: it was funny, but it wasn't right. And then Riley

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Speaker 1: comes in and Riley's last and Riley brings in a

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Speaker 1: bag of rings and he puts them on the table

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Speaker 1: and you know, Lebron asks him what's in there and

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Speaker 1: he dumps them out and there is championship rings that

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Speaker 1: he's won everywhere, and it's what Lebron wants, and he

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Speaker 1: has this really important line to keep the main thing

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Speaker 1: the main thing. Lebron didn't know what that was in

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Speaker 1: the moment, but Maverick knew what it was because he'd

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Speaker 1: read Steve and our Covey's book and certainly understood what

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Speaker 1: Riley was saying. And the main thing in Miami with

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Speaker 1: pat Riley is winning championships, and he knew that that

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Speaker 1: was the main thing for Lebron. And I just thought, wow,

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Speaker 1: like these two contrasts, the Knicks and the Heat. So

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Speaker 1: the Miami story is four years, two championships. I think

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Speaker 1: the arc of many of our lives is the hardships

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Speaker 1: come before the titles or the runs. Right, We've all

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Speaker 1: struggled in our life. Lebron struggles are the struggles of

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Speaker 1: the greatest basketball player ever. The decision ding them a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But Miami, Miami felt like it was going

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Speaker 1: to work very quickly. You had the smart owner, pat Riley,

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Speaker 1: a young, brilliant, young coach. You had d Wade Haslam

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Speaker 1: the culture, and then he loses to the Mavericks and

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Speaker 1: for the only time in his career looked afraid on

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Speaker 1: the court. That was a real turning point for Lebron.

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Speaker 1: Talk about that, it's a huge turning point. I would say,

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Speaker 1: it's not really a disagreement with you, But I think

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Speaker 1: the decision did more in than ding him. Because the

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Speaker 1: ramification of the decision. He is the villain of American sports.

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Speaker 1: His first year in Miami, he's hated and anyone who

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Speaker 1: was in Cleveland. I was not there the night that

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Speaker 1: Lebron returned to Cleveland, but I interviewed people who were

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Speaker 1: It was violent. I mean it was scary. People who

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Speaker 1: were on that team said they were afraid. The security

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Speaker 1: in the arena, people that were there to protect the

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Speaker 1: Miami players they had never seen or felt anything like

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Speaker 1: that at an American sports event. That first year in

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Speaker 1: Miami for Lebron, I think was different because Lebron likes

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Speaker 1: to be liked and he was hated that year. And

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Speaker 1: then on top of that, they were supposed to win

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Speaker 1: and they didn't win, and I think that's what plunged

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Speaker 1: Lebron into a dark period. The summer after losing to

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Speaker 1: Dallas is the darkest period of Lebron's career for him personally,

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Speaker 1: and it's really a moment of self discovery where he's

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Speaker 1: locked away in Miami. He doesn't want to talk to anybody,

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Speaker 1: not family, not friends. He's listening to you certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of music, and really when he comes out of that,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting when he comes out of that. I just

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that one of the first people

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Speaker 1: he saw when he came out of that was Bono

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Speaker 1: in Miami, who had come YouTube was there touring, and

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Speaker 1: he had some private time with Bono backstage. I just

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting because I was thinking to myself

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Speaker 1: as a writer, Bono's probably one of the only people

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Speaker 1: on the planet who could actually say in that moment,

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Speaker 1: I've been through more than you I know what this

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Speaker 1: is like, like, I've been in worse spots than you

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Speaker 1: because I've been doing this longer and I'm a world

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Speaker 1: around rock star. And I'm sure he didn't say those

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Speaker 1: things to Lebron, but there aren't many people Lebron can

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Speaker 1: get in a room with who could actually say I've

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Speaker 1: been to these places that you're in right now. And

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Speaker 1: he comes out of that, and Dwayne Wade has a

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Speaker 1: big part of him coming out of that, because that's

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Speaker 1: when they have the conversation about this needs to be

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Speaker 1: your team. It's sort of like it's okay to take over,

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Speaker 1: you need to dominate. This is my city and my

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Speaker 1: team in my town, but we're not going to win

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Speaker 1: unless you take the reins. And boy, the next season,

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Speaker 1: Lebron's the scariest player in the NBA. I mean, everyone's

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Speaker 1: afraid of him. You don't want to play this team

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Speaker 1: and that guy. And I think the next three years

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Speaker 1: to me, those are the scary Lebron years. Let's go

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Speaker 1: back to you talk about in the book. There's obviously

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Speaker 1: great debate. Lebron now starts stacking up championships in Miami

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Speaker 1: and then the Michael Jordan's stuff really starts to become

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Speaker 1: a comp and nobody had really ever challenged Michael Jordan.

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Speaker 1: It was just Russell early, then Kareem, then Magic. Then

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Speaker 1: you know, you kind of got ten years to yourself

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Speaker 1: as the greatest player ever. And all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: after the second title, people start talking about, Wow, this

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Speaker 1: guy is different. Yes, but in his early days in

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Speaker 1: high school, Jeff nobody talked about Michael Jordan. Their games

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Speaker 1: were different, Their personalities are completely different. One is much

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Speaker 1: more hyper aggressive, much more the score not necessary, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily ever conciliatory or considering about your feelings. Lebron's comp

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Speaker 1: was not Mike, as you note, Yeah it is, because

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Speaker 1: it's interesting you reference that high school years. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite scenes in this well, I'm going to say

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Speaker 1: two of them, because they're kind of coupled. It's when

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Speaker 1: Maverick goes back, he leaves college after one year, right

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Speaker 1: realizes he's not going to play in the NBA, goes

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Speaker 1: back to Akron to go to school and to work

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Speaker 1: with Lebron and help Lebron and navigate those tenuous high

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Speaker 1: school years coming up for him, and he starts coaching

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Speaker 1: his AAU team and they go to Chicago in the summer,

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Speaker 1: and one of the guys from Jordan's Jim, who works

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Speaker 1: with Michael Jordan trains with him, approaches Maverick and invites

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Speaker 1: him and Lebron to come to Michael's Jim in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and they go. Michael's not there, but they go and

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Speaker 1: they check it out, and it's like they've entered that

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Speaker 1: sort of celestial space where Michael Jordan trains. It's a

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Speaker 1: private place not anybody can go. And other NBA players

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Speaker 1: who are active in the league go there to train,

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Speaker 1: and remember Michael's retired right now, but they go there.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Lebron gets to do

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Speaker 1: is he gets to scrimmage run with these NBA players,

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Speaker 1: guys like Antoine Walker, big time players, big bodies playing

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Speaker 1: with a teenager. And for the first time, the floor

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Speaker 1: looks different to Lebron, it's a different floor. And that's

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Speaker 1: why that chapter is called a different Floor. It's the

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Speaker 1: same dimensions of the floor that he plays on at

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Speaker 1: Saint Fee's, except everything's different. The passing lanes are more

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Speaker 1: narrow because the guys are so much bigger. Their arms

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Speaker 1: are longer when they put their arms out. The routes

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Speaker 1: to the basket just aren't there that he sees in

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Speaker 1: high school games. It's all different for him, and that

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Speaker 1: is a huge eye opening experience for him. And one

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Speaker 1: thing happens. He can't guard anybody in those scrimmages. They're

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Speaker 1: too good, they're too fast, they're too big. He can't

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Speaker 1: guard them. But he can score against these guys, which

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Speaker 1: is phenomenal. He can score buckets with some of the

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Speaker 1: best NBA players and he's only in high school. That's

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Speaker 1: really important. And then here's the second part. Later they

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Speaker 1: go back there, and they're there and they're about to leave,

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Speaker 1: and they go outside and Martin pulls up in a

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Speaker 1: red sports car and gets out. Now at this moment,

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Speaker 1: Michael knows he's coming out of retirement, but nobody else

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Speaker 1: knows that. He hasn't announced it yet, And so he

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Speaker 1: gets out. The coolest athlete in the world, gets out

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Speaker 1: of the car and approaches Lebron. He knows who Lebron is,

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Speaker 1: and Lebron certainly sees who he is. This is his idol,

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Speaker 1: this is the guy whose posters are on his bedroom walls.

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Speaker 1: It's the guy whose number he wears. And now they're

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Speaker 1: in a conversation and Michael invites him back inside and

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Speaker 1: they talk, and Michael doesn't give him advice, because Michael's

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Speaker 1: not that kind of guy. But it doesn't matter. It's

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Speaker 1: what he did give him was he gave him his

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Speaker 1: cell phone number, which to me is a lot more

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Speaker 1: important than advice because of what it says to Lebron.

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Speaker 1: Michael doesn't give his phone number out to anybody. Lebron's

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Speaker 1: now one of the few people in America who has

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Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's cell phone. And when he leaves Chicago that night,

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Speaker 1: by the way, Colin, the next day is the first

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Speaker 1: day of school at Saint fee Maverick's got to raise

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Speaker 1: him home because he's got to be in school the

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Speaker 1: next day, and in his pocket he's got Michael Jordan's

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Speaker 1: phone number. And he wrote in his journal about that

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Speaker 1: and about how cool that experience was. And to me,

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Speaker 1: what did Michael think of Lebron in that moment? Did

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Speaker 1: he really think that Lebron was actually going to threaten

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Speaker 1: him as the potential greatest player of all time? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Probably not, because he was still a kid

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Speaker 1: and he was very encouraging to him at that moment.

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Speaker 1: But obviously as time goes on and it doesn't take long.

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Speaker 1: By the time you get to Game five against Detroit,

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Speaker 1: you know, like this guy is actually that guy, like

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Speaker 1: he is the future. He is that good and there

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Speaker 1: isn't anyone else like him. And so I just think

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Speaker 1: the Michael Jordan origin stories with Lebron, they're real, and

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00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: there's some of the most interesting parts of Lebron's story.

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Speaker 1: I remember his first game was against Sacramento, and I

404
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Speaker 1: think if I recall, he had like twenty points, you know,

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Speaker 1: and did the classic sort of Lebron box score seven

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Speaker 1: rebounds tennisis you know, a classic didn't well, he was

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Speaker 1: not a great defender early in his NBA career. In

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Speaker 1: his game, although he was a freight train, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the finesse and the softness and the three point shooting

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Speaker 1: hadn't developed. How badly, because I remember the Spurs being

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Speaker 1: dominant and being a rating enemy for the league, like

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Speaker 1: the Dynasty was a snooze y. Popovich sometimes wouldn't play

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Speaker 1: the best players in TV games. It was like this

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Speaker 1: small market sort of combative head coach. How badly did

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Speaker 1: the league need Lebron in those first three or four

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Speaker 1: years As a story, as a narrative. I think they

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Speaker 1: needed him extremely badly, but I think it had less. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they obviously needed his talent, and they needed him to

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Speaker 1: be legitimate on the court, like a real star, not

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Speaker 1: a lot of hype who came in and was kind

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Speaker 1: of okay. They needed him to be a really good,

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Speaker 1: serious star player his rookie year. But there was something

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Speaker 1: they needed more than that. They needed a clean reputation.

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Speaker 1: If you remember the status of the league when Lebron

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Speaker 1: came in, and it was a mess. There were so

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Speaker 1: many negative things about the NBA's image with Alan Iverson,

427
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: with all the off court stuff. There were fights, there

428
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: was the Indiana brawl. In the stands, there was a

429
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: dress code that you know, Stern decided he had to

430
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: impose on the players, which was very controversial. You know,

431
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant was arrested for a felony right as Lebron

432
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: is emerging as a young NBA player. What the league

433
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: really needed from Lebron, which to me is an enormous burden,

434
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: is they need a star that you actually want to

435
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: root for. That's what they needed, and he really delivered that.

436
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: I mean, think about the rules that Lebron broke as

437
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: a young player. One of my favorite rules that he broke,

438
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: and he just broke it and didn't care was when

439
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 1: his firstborn son was old enough to walk, he walks

440
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: across the court during a game. It's a time out,

441
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: but it's a game. He walks across the court, leaves

442
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: his mom's lap, walks across the court, and sits beside

443
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: his dad on the bench in a game. You're not

444
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: supposed to do that. You can't have family members on

445
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: the bench in a game. There's actually a rule that

446
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: prohibits that. The league didn't enforce it with Lebron because

447
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: it's like, wow, like did somebody script that. I mean,

448
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: that's like, that's medicine we need. And so he broke

449
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: rules like that again and again and again, and the

450
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: league didn't slap his hand because actually, this is what

451
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: we need. And Lebron wasn't doing it to help the

452
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: league or to be a certain kind of image. Lebron

453
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: was just being Lebron, like that's who he is. And

454
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: so it's like it was some of the best tonic

455
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: for the NBA at the time. You know, we live

456
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: in a post truth. I mean, it's such a weird

457
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: place we are now. Where I can hand people facts

458
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter. People are so deeply embedded in

459
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: their opinion. So you know, I've said this through the years,

460
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: is that Lebron wasn't the first person to be mobile,

461
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: but he has changed it so that when players like

462
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Damian Lillard don't consider moving, or Bradley Beale or Jannis,

463
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: it's considered bad business. You have to consider it that

464
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: loyalty is almost viewed a little bit as a weakness

465
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: unless you can win a title. And I think Lebron

466
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: deserves credit for that. He empowered the player magic arguably

467
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: saved the league. Jordan made it more global. Lebron made

468
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: mobility and business player empowerment. That said, the idea that

469
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: he created super teams is really laughable in your book,

470
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: totally laugh in your book, you actually note, and I

471
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: want you to go into some detail here that there

472
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: was a super team created because of Lebron. Yeah, nobody

473
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: understood super teams more than Pat Riley and Danny Ainge.

474
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: And Ange is up running the Celtics, Riley's down in

475
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: Miami running the Heat. They can't stand each other. They're

476
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: great rivals that go all the way back to the eighties.

477
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: Lakers Celtics rivalries, and now they're running teams and they're

478
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: building super teams. And it's because Ange played on a

479
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: super team in Boston with Bird, McHale, Parrish and Dennis

480
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: Johnson won all that winning that went on, and Riley

481
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: built a super team in LA with Magic and Kareem

482
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: and James Worthy and all those guys. Now they're executives.

483
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: And let's just remember Ange builds a super team in

484
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: Boston before Lebron goes to Miami, right, the whole thing

485
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: with Garnett and Alan and Pierce. What's he doing. He's

486
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: trying to be Lebron. He's trying to make sure that

487
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: the Celtics can beat Lebron because he knows how good

488
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: Lebron is. Then Lebron goes down to Miami and basically,

489
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: with Riley's guidance and helping with the architecture, I mean,

490
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: they assemble a superteam as if this is a new thing.

491
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, it's funny because in what it

492
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: leads to is the Warriors going out, who already have

493
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: an all star team. Right, they have the Splash Brothers,

494
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: they have Draymond Greene, who is the most underrated great

495
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: player in the NBA at the time, and then they

496
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: got to go get Kevin Durant, why for one, when

497
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: he'son only so they make sure they can actually beat

498
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: the Cavaliers. And so the whole idea that it's Lebron's

499
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: fault is funny because super teams are what have always

500
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: carried the day in the NBA. The Dynasties that preceded

501
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: the Celtics, the Lakers, those were super teams. Michael was

502
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: on a super team and so I mean, you know,

503
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: you take Scottie Pippenham off that team. I mean, I'm sorry,

504
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: but that's like Michael with the bulls in dealing with

505
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: what Lebron had to do when he was in Cleveland

506
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: and didn't have Kyrie or any other guys. That's what

507
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, I've noted that before. It's much easier

508
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: to be Magic Johnson inherit Kareem and never leave, or

509
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: go be Michael Jordan and live in a great American

510
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: city in a major market and not leave. Cleveland was neither.

511
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: You didn't have a team, much structure. It's a place.

512
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I for years I would ask players their

513
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 1: least favorite place to play in the NBA, and they

514
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: would mention Cleveland or Sacramento. Yes. So, I've always thought

515
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: the criticism of Lebron that he left if he is

516
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,959
Speaker 1: drafted by the Lakers. Remember was it Kobe drafted by Charlotte. Yes,

517
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: he would have not been loyal. He would loyal because

518
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: he became a Laker. Yes. So let's go to the

519
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: early days of Lebron in Cleveland where they got to

520
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: a finals. We're completely overwhelmed by a much better team

521
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: San Antonio. But early coaches are Mike Brown and Paul Silas.

522
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: We never hear about them. They are lost in the

523
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: story of Lebron. Mike's now doing a fabulous job with Sacramento. Yep,

524
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: let's go back and let's revisit that. Let's let's talk

525
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: Mike Brown, who, by the way, Lebron wasn't a great defender.

526
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure Mike deserves some credit for really teaching Lebron

527
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: how to defend in this league. What was their relationship,

528
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: Like Colin, Before I answer that, I, can we say

529
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: something about Silas because you did mention Silas. Yeah. Paul

530
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: Silas to me is I tried to mention as much

531
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: as I include Paul as much as I could. His

532
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: tenure is brief in Cleveland, but to me it's pivotal.

533
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he's the coach when Lebron is a rookie,

534
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: and Paul is this much older, seasoned veteran, right, not

535
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: just veteran player, but veteran coach. A lot of Lebron's

536
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: coaches were young guys. Mike Brown, who is proving to

537
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: be a great coach now, when he was coaching Lebron,

538
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: he's not seasoned yet, right, He's very young. He's learning

539
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: how to be a head coach. Lebron has worked with

540
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: a lot of coaches when they were really young and

541
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: then went on to become really good, reputable coaches, but

542
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: when they were with Lebron, not so much. Silas. On

543
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: the other hand, this guy's seen everything. He talked about

544
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: having seen everything, and then he'd say repeatedly that rookie

545
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: year and then something that happened with Lebron that I've

546
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: never seen before, And it's because it was such a

547
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: weird experience, the amount of fame and hype around Lebron.

548
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: But Paul did a good job of I think protecting

549
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: and teaching Lebron. There was a Ricky Davis got traded

550
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: out of there because there was dissension in the locker room.

551
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: Lebron takes the high road as a teenager, doesn't want

552
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: to criticize any of his teammates, doesn't want to say

553
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: negative things. The reporters were baiting him to say things,

554
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't. He just talked about how he got

555
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: along with everybody silence. Knew what was going on, and

556
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: there's a reason that they made personnel changes in a

557
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: rookie year, and they traded veterans to get the team

558
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: in better shape for Lebron. That's what I want to

559
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: say about Paul. I think Paul had a big role

560
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: that gets understated. And as far as Mike Brown goes,

561
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean, look, Mike was learning. You know, Gilbert liked him,

562
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: Gilbert hired him. I think he saw something in Brown

563
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: and now it looks like, well, geez, what he saw

564
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: is actually real. But you know, Lebron's not patient. He's

565
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: not a patient athlete. I'm not saying that to criticize him.

566
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: Tom Brady's not patient either. There's a reason he's throwing

567
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: stuff around on the sideline and yelling at people you

568
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: are better than everybody else when you dream about what

569
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: is going to happen on the court. When you see

570
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: things that no one else sees, you get impatient really fast.

571
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: And so was there a lot of that when Mike

572
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: was coaching and learning how to be a head coach. Yes,

573
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: And I think in some ways. You know, on one hand,

574
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: Lebron is really easy to coach. Mike Schevski will tell

575
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: you like an incredibly coachable player. Coach drew his high

576
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: school coach, very coachable player. I think when Mike Brown

577
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: was the coach, I'm not sure how much coaching Mike

578
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: Brown did of Lebron. And I think part of that is, Look,

579
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: I can't speak for what Mike Brown really felt at

580
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: that time, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was

581
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: a little reluctant to try to coach Lebron because you know, like,

582
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: what am I going to say? Like I don't have

583
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: the best player in the league on my team. I

584
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: got the best player on the planet on my team.

585
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: I mean, what am I going to really tell this guy?

586
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: And I think that that Paul Silas didn't have to

587
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: worry about that, he's Paul Silas, but Mike Brown different,

588
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: and I just think that's It's just part of the

589
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: reality of what was happening at the time. I have

590
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: a feeling if he was his coach today, it'd be different.

591
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: When do you believe Lebron truly realized I'm the best

592
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: basketball player currently on the planet. I think he knew

593
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: it way before he left Cleveland the first time, way

594
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: before he left Cleveland the first time. So do I yeah?

595
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't say that he felt that way

596
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: the minute he entered the league. One of the things

597
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: about Lebron is he is a student. Like if if

598
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: Lebron could get a PhD in history, it would be

599
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: in basketball history. He actually studied the grades like he

600
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: knows their pedigree right. And he came into the league

601
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: very respectful of players that were before him, including veterans

602
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: who were in the league, guys like Kobe right who

603
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: most people considered Kobe the greatest player in the game.

604
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: When Lebron entered the league. Kobe was the guy Michael

605
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: had just retired, and we all know Michael's last year

606
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: wasn't a banner year for Michael. But Kobe was at

607
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: the pinnacle when Lebron entered, and there weren't many people

608
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: saying in Lebron's rookie year that he was better than Kobe.

609
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: But guys like Jerry West, they knew he was gonna

610
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: be better than Kobe. They all knew that because they

611
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: could all see it. Danny Ainge knew that, pat Riley

612
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: knew that, and they all looked at Kobe as the

613
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: greatest player on earth at the time, but they all

614
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: knew that Lebron was going to go past him. And

615
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: so the point in time, the moment, I don't know.

616
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know when that moment was, but

617
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: I know it was before he left Cleveland the first time.

618
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,479
Speaker 1: Jeff Benedict one final question. I've said this before that

619
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: Michael could be petty and spiteful, but he made good decisions.

620
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: He leaned on his mother, David Falk, David Stern, Phil Jackson.

621
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: He really made good decisions. Similarly Lebron, who came in

622
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: much younger to the NBA than Michael. He didn't have

623
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: the stewardship of Dean Smith for years and understanding you

624
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: know that that basketball factory in Carolina, and but he

625
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: was very smart with the media, very respectful of the sport.

626
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: Has made very few mistakes. I've always said there's three

627
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: stages for the all time greats in basketball. The show

628
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: off stage where Lebron would chase people down and block

629
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: stuff off the backboard, the okay, enough of me, I

630
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: want to win rings and be respected stage, and then

631
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: you pivot to the mogul stage, which is everything set.

632
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to do the best thing for me and

633
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: LA is that move. He has a very strong relationship

634
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: with jay Z Lebron does. How formidable is that decision?

635
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: How much of Lebron's journey and handling of business do

636
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: you credit jay Z? Let's go into that relationship. Well,

637
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: so look in terms of crediting his unparalleled business experience

638
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: and success, I take that less from jay Z. I

639
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: think jay Z deserves a ton of credit on some

640
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: other things. But on the business side, I think what

641
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: Lebron's done very well. It starts with the lawyer that

642
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: he hired. His mother really hired. Credit to her. Lebron

643
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: hired a lawyer when he was in high school because

644
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: he had issues with you know, suspended his last year

645
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: for some stupid thing with a you know, the hummer

646
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. That lawyer that he hired was

647
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: a very smart business Lawyer's the smartest lawyer in Cleveland. Arguably,

648
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: it's the beginning of Lebron starting to surround himself with older, mature,

649
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: wise people who know about business and know about money management.

650
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: And really, in short order, when Lebron fires his agent,

651
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: everybody thought initially, holy cow, that's a stupid thing to do.

652
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: Here's where the train goes off the rails. It was

653
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: a brilliant decision because he was hiring people to manage

654
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: his money, to manage his affairs. He was working with

655
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: lawyers and financiers who were introducing him to people who

656
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: were teaching Lebron about the big picture about financial security.

657
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: He took the time to go meet with Warren Buffett.

658
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: Maverick went with him. These weren't meetings to go see

659
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: a picture and tell the world, look who I met today.

660
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: Lebron was actually really trying to find out how to

661
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: build long term financial security. They were talking. They were

662
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: using words like equity, when most athletes don't really know

663
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: what equity is or how to even get it. Lebron

664
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: was in his early twenties and he was learning about it.

665
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: He knew he didn't know, but he wanted to learn.

666
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: And Maverick was the same way. They were hungry, they

667
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: were like sponges, And so I think that is what

668
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: set Lebron up so early. He went away from oh,

669
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: I'll just do a commercial and sit in this car

670
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: and I'll get money from Chevrolet. Or I'll go to

671
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: General Mills and you can put my face on a

672
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: cereal box and I'll take some money for the commercial.

673
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: Lebron got disinterested in that really early and got interested

674
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: in how do I own a piece of this, how

675
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: do I build long term equity, how do I own things?

676
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: And that's I think the brilliance of that. But I

677
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: think where jay Z was so instrumental with Lebron on

678
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: his He was older than Lebron, not not way older,

679
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: but he was old enough older that Lebron could look

680
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: up to him. Not just because he was a great

681
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: artist who made music that Lebron liked, all of which

682
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: was true, but because he could see someone who'd been

683
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: through some scrapes and some scraps, came out on the

684
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: other side and was building a business. He didn't just

685
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: want to make music. He was building a business. He

686
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: was building a record label, he was he was building

687
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: a clothing line. He was building nightclubs. He was building things,

688
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: and he was interested in politics. He was interested in

689
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: more than just music. And I think that look and

690
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: he realized that jay Z wasn't interested in him just

691
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: because he was famous or just because he was a

692
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: great athlete. Jay Z actually was interested in him as

693
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: a man, as a young man, and I think there

694
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: was some reciprocity there between them, and I think that's

695
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: why the relationship was never too cool guys who were

696
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: famous sitting around hanging out because famous people like to

697
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: be around famous people. They were actually friends, they were

698
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: real friends, and so I thought that was most obvious

699
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: when the Brooklyn Nets were recruiting Lebron and jay Z

700
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: was a part owner of the Nets, and the friendship

701
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: didn't get in the way. That's when you know it's

702
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: a real friendship. It wasn't transactional. He was respectful of

703
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: respectful of what was best for Lebron. You know, it's

704
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: interesting Michael stayed away from politics. Tiger Woods similarly has

705
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: steered clear of it. Lebron tends to ingratiate himself with

706
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: people and groups. He didn't like being a villain in Miami.

707
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: But there is a point with Donald Trump where Lebron

708
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: made decisions. I'm going to take a stand here. I'm

709
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: going to have a strong opinion. Take us to that

710
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: pivot point with Lebron. Of the many in his career,

711
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: his personality early would not be combative. That's not really

712
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: who he is. Michael Jordan, you could see being combative. Yeah,

713
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: So let's take us to the point in Lebron's arc

714
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: where he makes a decision that he knows full well

715
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 1: will get pushback and he's comfortable with it, taking on Trump.

716
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: For Lebron, the shift of politics and confrontation is not

717
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: an immediate one. It's a long one. Lebron, by nature

718
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,479
Speaker 1: is not confrontational. Even on the basketball court. Lebron doesn't

719
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: getting fights. You know, he's toughest. Yeah, he's the strongest,

720
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: biggest guy out there, and he's a peacemaker. He doesn't

721
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: like fighting, you know, never, not in high school. Never.

722
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: And he's certainly not confrontational you know, out in the world.

723
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: And so for many years in his career he was

724
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: very a political meaning just agnostic toward it. He avoid

725
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: completely somewhat like Michael. I'm not saying he was using

726
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: Michael as a role model in that regard. But he

727
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: was very standoffish on politics that Michael felt more like

728
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 1: that was a business decision. Lebron, it's a personality reality, Yes,

729
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: it's exactly. And he didn't feel comfortable that he knew

730
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: enough to weigh in. And that is evident with the

731
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: Olympics in China, where he was pressured immensely to weigh

732
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: in on China's human rights record, and Lebron wouldn't. His

733
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: whole team signed a letter speaking out against the Chinese government.

734
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: Lebron was the only player, well one other player that

735
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: didn't that didn't do it either, but Lebron was the

736
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: guy who didn't sign it. But it's interesting Colin that

737
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: it was later that year Barack Obama's running for president,

738
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: and later that year Jay Z does talk to Lebron

739
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: about the significance of Barack's candidacy end up joining him

740
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: at a concert, a benefit concert to support Barrock. That

741
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: is the beginning of Lebron entering the space of politics.

742
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: He stuck his toe in. He didn't jump in, but

743
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: he put his toe in right and it felt good.

744
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: You know. There were no ramifications from that, There was

745
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: no big public outcry because he did that. And then

746
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: once Obama was elected more than any American president history.

747
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: He embraced NBA players. He likes basketball. He loves basketball.

748
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: He started inviting these guys to the White House, not

749
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: just when they won championships, but when he had meaningful

750
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: things he wanted to bring them in on. And Lebron

751
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: did things like PSAs for his healthcare plan, you know,

752
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: and the Republicans got mad at Lebron for doing that,

753
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 1: and that's when it starts to build. And then when

754
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: you start to have the I can't breathe moment for

755
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: Lebron when he wears the black T shirt onto the

756
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: floor of a game, that's when he really started to

757
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: turn up to ten. Now this is all way before Trump.

758
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: Trump is not even a candidate yet. And that's why

759
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Colin, it's it's important to remember these are

760
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: steps Lebron takes. He's very careful. He doesn't just launch

761
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: into something willy nilly and just start firing from the hip.

762
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: He moves into this space gradually. And I think that

763
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: Barack Obama was an incredible teacher, as was the first Lady.

764
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: They taught Lebron things not by what they said, but

765
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 1: by what they showed. He was around them. They were

766
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: great models. Here is the highest profile black couple in

767
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: the world. Talk about pressure in America, the kind of

768
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 1: abuse they took, the criticism they took in the United

769
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: States just for the color of their skin and being

770
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: in the White House, Like, how dare Barack Obama saying?

771
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: Do some of the things he was doing? Run saw

772
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: this and I think admired the way they carried themselves.

773
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: He is modeling and then stepping out. And by the

774
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: time Trump gets there, he's very disciplined. In the campaign.

775
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: He campaigned for Hillary, but he never said critical things

776
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: about Trump. He was very careful. He tried very hard

777
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: not to it. He didn't attack Trump at all. But

778
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: eventually when Trump wins and he didn't think Trump would win,

779
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: and Trump wins in Ohio, I mean, he knows it's

780
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: only a matter of time. This is going to get

781
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: really ugly. And it didn't take long. And what it

782
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: really took to push lebron over the edge was I mean,

783
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: remember right before the election when the tape was leaked

784
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: of him, of Trump saying all those vile things about women,

785
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: and then he said, wow, it's just locker room talk.

786
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: In that moment, Lebron was the first and only major

787
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: athlete to step up and say, wait a minute, that's

788
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: not locker room talk. That's not how any of the

789
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: men talk in my locker room. We don't talk about

790
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: we have wives, we have daughters, we don't talk like that.

791
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: That to me, was a salvo. He didn't attack Trump,

792
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: but he made it really clear like that was a

793
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: shot across the bat, like I'm not going to be

794
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: quiet if this guy attacks us. Because that wasn't That

795
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: wasn't an attack on Lebron. It was an attack on

796
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: all professional athletes who are men. When he said that's

797
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: locker room talking, it's like all those guys are like this,

798
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: And Lebron stepped up and said, no, no, we're not

799
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: like that. It's a warning shot. And then comes the

800
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 1: attack on Steph Curry like he's not going to invite

801
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: him to the White House, and that's when you get

802
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: the U bum treat tweet and that you bum tweet.

803
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: Lebron didn't think about it very long. Yeah, I mean

804
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: all you have to do to trust me, just look

805
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: at the time stamps on the tweets. Right his comes

806
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 1: out and here comes Lebron right behind him. Why because

807
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: he attacked Trump's friend. He didn't attack Lebron. He attacked

808
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: actually attacked Lebron's rival, the guy who's going against in

809
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: the finals. He attacked that guy. And then Lebron was

810
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: all in. And as soon as he was all in,

811
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: so was everybody else. I mean, he when he came through,

812
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: it's like he broke the gates down and then everybody

813
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: ran in behind him. Yeah, but it really is a

814
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: significant shift in confidence growth. Remember I had Barack Obama.

815
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: I had a good fortune of twice having him live

816
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: on radio. We were very lucky. He chose Andy Katz

817
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: and myself Wow a couple of times. I always felt

818
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: so honored. And I remember asking the president a question.

819
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: I said, you know, you're the first president in American

820
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: history to face the vile nature of social media. It's

821
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: it's at its best, quirky and unique. At its worst,

822
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: it's ugly and threatening. Know whether the President's face that,

823
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: and our President Obama gave a very interesting, you know,

824
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 1: as you suspect, a very thoughtful, mindful comment on it.

825
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: But you know, Lebron is also an argument to be made.

826
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: Is our first NBA superstar who in his ten year

827
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: prime faced social media. Michael Jordan, I swear to god

828
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: he never missed a shot. If you I've never seen

829
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: a miss jumper from Michael Jordan. So and Kobe for

830
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: parts of his career really didn't face a lot of

831
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: the social media, although by the time the race trial

832
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: it was, it was really a part of it. But

833
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we forget Lebron has faced this headwind

834
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: of negativity. Now all of us face it, But I

835
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 1: don't know how I would have handled it at twenty

836
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: four years old as a sportscaster getting this blowback. Now,

837
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: I roll my eyes at it and warn my kids

838
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: about it. But for Lebron to live through it knowing

839
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: full well, Jeff, when he would put you bum by

840
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: that time, he knew the blowback he was going to get,

841
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: even perhaps in his own arena or state. Yeah, no,

842
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: it's true. And I think to me, look, you always

843
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: get in trouble when you start making comparisons of athletes

844
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 1: from different generations and eras, and so I'm I'm always

845
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: loath to do that when it's a comparison about like

846
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: on the field stuff, or on the court or on

847
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: the course. But when you come off the court and

848
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: you start looking at the athletes who really made a

849
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: difference in things that really matter. You talk about Muhammed Ali,

850
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: and you talk about Arthur Ashe and Kareem Abdul Jabbar,

851
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 1: Jim Brown, some of the guys who really took risks.

852
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, Ali risked everything. I mean he literally risked

853
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: his belt in his freedom. So I'm not going to

854
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: compare Lebron to Muhammed Ali because that would be I think,

855
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: probably inappropriate. But if you put Lebron in time, in

856
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: space that he lives in, this guy has literally a

857
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: billion reasons to not step into that arena and take

858
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: on the president United States. It's just so much easier

859
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: to not do that. You know, if you do that,

860
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: half the country is suddenly going to hate you, and

861
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: it's a different kind of hate than you had in

862
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: twenty ten with the decision that was all sports driven.

863
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: This is something different and the country had changed in

864
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: six years. It's a different country now, And if you

865
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: do that, it's like the gloves are off and suddenly

866
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: you now represent something else. And I think Lebron was

867
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: very well aware that he's too aware to not know that,

868
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: and he did it anyway. And I think the reason

869
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: I think it's worth saying that is for this simple thing.

870
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many athletes I have talked to,

871
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: both in and outside the scope of reporting on the book.

872
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: So I've talked. I've talked to plenty of athletes, not

873
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: in my capacity as writing Lebron's biography, who told me

874
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: unsolicited how that decision by Lebron to do that, but

875
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: the president made it easier for them to speak out

876
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: and made them more comfortable and unafraid to open their mouth.

877
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: And so I think it's hard to underestimate the impact

878
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: that Lebron had on social justice and athletes taking a

879
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: stand on issues that really matter, like violence, police violence,

880
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: and racism and poverty and all these different things. Because

881
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: the greatest athlete on the planet decided he could do it, well,

882
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: then now it's okay for me to do it. And

883
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: that's what's really different. And who else could have got

884
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan to put out a statement in support of Lebron.

885
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: It took that because Trump said I like Mike, and

886
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: Michael then finally said, well, I'm impressed with Lebron. I

887
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 1: mean that was a big deal to me, a really

888
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: big deal. Yeah, And it goes against his personality pattern

889
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: just a few years before that, which I think is

890
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: such a redeemable quality as that Lebron. I always said

891
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: this about Tiger Woods and Oprah. Oprah had the number

892
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: one show in television. I worked at an NBC affiliate,

893
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: and she decided it's not good enough. I'm going to

894
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: separate from We're not going to do topics. We're going

895
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 1: to do a more life improvement ethereal show. And her

896
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: ratings initially dipped and then they went up. Tiger Woods,

897
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: number one golfer in the world, changed clubs to be

898
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: the best and risk it by taking big swings that

899
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: could hurt your brand. Oprah, Tiger Lebron have done it.

900
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 1: And it's a very shortlist of people willing, knowing full

901
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: well you can lose fans, audience, brands, money. I have

902
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: such respect for those people that take chances when they're

903
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: at the top. Yeah. It's easy to take the big

904
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: swing when you're chasing. Yeah, not when you're at the top,

905
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: to change golf clubs, to go political, to change your

906
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: entire show, ye or direction. Yeah. Jeff Benedict, this is

907
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: his the author of sixteen books, folks. That is a

908
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: lot of books and that is a lot of research

909
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: behind those glasses you are looking at there is there

910
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: are compartments of knowledge. I am jealous. I'm not equipped

911
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: with The book is called Lebron They're so It's so rich.

912
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: It just resonates with so many unique stories, the kind

913
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: of depth I don't provide on a daily show he

914
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: does here. Just so profoundly thankful that you took time

915
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: for us, because I know you do a lot of

916
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: these and I really enjoyed the last hour, Jeff, I

917
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: really did. Thank you so much. You do a great interview. Colin,

918
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't come on anytime. Thanks for such a great

919
00:57:45,600 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: conversation the volume. Make sure to check out The Draymond

920
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the volume because

921
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective

922
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like

923
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download The

924
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcasts, only on

925
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: the Volume podcast Network.