1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how stupp 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen, and we're all familiar with the 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: gender wage gap, the concept of it, the realities of it, 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: especially since we just marked equal pay Day in mid April. 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: And well, Caroline, quick note equal pay day for white women. Well, exactly, 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: that's what I'm getting at com SIY. Sorry, sorry, you 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: and I are on the same page here. My intersectionality 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: gets so over eager sometimes I don't I know it. Um. Basically, 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: what Kristen is referring to, in case you're not a 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: long time Sminty listener, uh, for every dollar earned by 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: a white, non Hispanic dude in full time work, the 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: average white woman in America earns seventy eight Since this 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: is a refrain with which we are very familiar and 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: so equal pay day then is the extra amount of 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: time by which a woman would need to work to 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: match a man's annual salary. So for white ladies with 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: that seventy eight cents ratio, it rolls around in April, 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: correct exactly. But the average Hispanic woman in this country, 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: for every dollar a dude makes she makes only fifty 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: six cents, so her equal pay day is in October. Yeah. 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: So just as the as the leaves are changing, and 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: and a man, a white dude, an average white dude 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: has made almost an entire New year's worth of salary 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: money cash. Uh, the Hispanic woman is is just starting 26 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: to catch up. Yea. And I believe for black women 27 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: the gap is sixty eight cents for every dollar a 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: white dude make, so they're more late summer yeah there July. Yeah, 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: so you know, you go to the swimming pool, you know, 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: you're rock in your shorts, in your Hawaiian shirts around 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: the luau in the summer, and and you finally catch 32 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: up with with your wage gap. Also, I want to 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: go to whatever swimming pool you're having these um, well, 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: you're invited. I mean, it's it's just the wage gap. 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: Luow you know, I mean, we're we're trying to work 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: on a on a better catch your name, yea, the 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: wage gap flu Yeah, well, because I'm hoping to find 38 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: something with a little more alliteration. So the wage gap, 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: grill out, grill out, I don't know, we'll we'll work 40 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: on it. You guys are welcome to send us suggestions. Um. 41 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: But the interesting thing about the wage gap and equal 42 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: pay salaries negotiation. The interesting thing is that when you 43 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: break it down by sexual orientation, things actually shake out 44 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: a little differently in that study after study has shown 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: that lesbians earn more than they're straight sisters. And I mean, 46 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: people are like, good for you, lesbians, and and it 47 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: is good for them. We can stand to learn so 48 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: much everything from you know, possibly bucking gender norms and 49 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 1: egalitarian divisions of chores. Well, exactly, they have more orgasms 50 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: statistically than straight women. They're better planning weddings in a 51 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: in a saner kind of way. Who knows, but yes, 52 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: there there are there's an array of things that I think, uh, 53 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: the straits could learn from our lesbian friends. But of 54 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: course there are some downsides too, the financial issues facing 55 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the LGBT community. But first 56 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: let's jump into what the heck is going on with 57 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: this so called lesbian wage premium. Well, there's no so 58 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: called about it. Uh. A January meta analysis by Maerica 59 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: Collobuter at the University of Washington and found a nine 60 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: percent lesbian wage premium. Or put another way, she found 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: that lesbians earned nine percent more on average than straight women, 62 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: and even when you control for demographics, the wage premium 63 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: is still around six percent. Yeah, and those demographics being 64 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: that self described lesbians tend to be that are educated 65 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: on average, more likely to be white, live in urban centers, 66 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: have fewer kids, and are more likely to be in 67 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: professional positions. And there was also a Canadian study that 68 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: looked only at white lesbians btw, and there was something 69 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: about the idea of factoring in race would factor in 70 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: too many variables in terms of socioeconomics. So they compared uh, 71 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: white lesbians and white street ladies in a July study 72 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: in the journal Gender and Society and found that that 73 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: wage premium is even stronger in those higher paying professional jobs. 74 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: But that does not mean that lesbians have entirely escaped 75 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: to this wage gap that we talk about. No, So 76 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: multiple studies have actually established an even more detailed pay 77 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: hierarchy than what we might think of with just the 78 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: gender wage gap. Of he makes this. She makes that because, 79 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: as we've already acknowledged, things shift when we look at 80 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: women of color. But if we look at sexual orientation, 81 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: the income hierarchy goes straight men, gay men, lesbians, and 82 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: then straight women. Yeah, very interesting, and that the one 83 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: of the factors that cements and complicates the whole gender 84 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: hierarchy thing is that trans women actually see a drop 85 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: in wages by nearly a third when they transition compared 86 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: with their trans men peers, who actually see a slight 87 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: bump in wages. Well, and that makes sense too, because 88 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: that's in line with the gender wage gap and isn't 89 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: necessarily correlated to the sexual orientation wage gap. Correct exactly, 90 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: And so why what is going on? And as I 91 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: was reading, you know, people, people are definitely reaching for answers. 92 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out the secret because I mean, 93 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: I think most of us, or at least the people 94 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, would love to see the gender 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: wage gap close, um, and the sexual orientation wage gap. 96 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: We want to see the wage gaps closed. We want 97 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: to earn the money that we deserve. And so as 98 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: I was reading all this stuff, I was trying to 99 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: figure out, like, yeah, you know what Kristen mentioned, there 100 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: is the egalitarian household chore thing, which we'll get into 101 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: here in a minute. But I was wondering too, if 102 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't circle back to already having experience and or 103 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: a level of comfort with bucking those gender norms where 104 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: women are supposed to be polite and you're supposed to 105 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: be a good girl and don't negotiate and don't push 106 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: too hard and just take what you're given and be 107 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: grateful for it, and that perhaps that gives them a 108 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: leg up when it comes to negotiating. Well, and I 109 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: would wonder too that if that is the case, whether 110 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: it plays more of a role in the how the 111 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: lesbian is going to negotiate for herself versus how an 112 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: employer is going to perceive her gender role wise, because 113 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: maybe with that bucking of gender norms, the employer is 114 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: less likely to negatively judge her if she pushes for 115 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: more money aggressively in a way that we would consider unfeminine. Well, yeah, 116 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: and that gets to the one of the possible answers, 117 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: which is the issue of positive discrimination. Those Canadian researchers 118 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: that we cited earlier said that lesbian employees could be 119 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: quote perceived as less feminine and closer to the unencumbered 120 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: male ideal. In other words, employer might be expecting lesbians 121 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: to be more competitive in their jobs. Uh, they might 122 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: be more committed to their work than straight women, you know, 123 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: those straight women who just immediately want to run off 124 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: and pop out babies and never come back from eternity. 125 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I can't wait to do that as 126 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: soon as I leave this podcast studio. I know Kristen's 127 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: on a timetable here, and and that whole thing, that 128 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: concept is called mommy tracking. It's when you pass over 129 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: a woman for top projects and promotions because of this assumption, 130 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: this this like almost subconscious assumption that mothers will be 131 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: less productive. And it's worth noting, by the way, that 132 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: there's no equivalent daddy track. And actually women tend to 133 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: be dinged for becoming mothers, whereas fathers in the workplace 134 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: tend to get almost like higher status. They're trusted more 135 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: when they become both married and fathers. So anyway, and 136 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: can I just stay here one that the combination of 137 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: those two phrases unencumbered male ideal and mommy track just 138 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: made me sprout like ten new gray hairs. I know, 139 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: but like I mean, here we were exploring subconscious in 140 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: a lot of cases biases, what what could potentially be 141 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: benefiting lesbians and hurting straight women? Um and in reality, 142 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, moms with full time jobs do take off 143 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: more time to tend a family, but that's for so 144 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: many complicated, myriad, multifaceted reasons, including things like male partners 145 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: not pulling their weight, expectations that a mom will take 146 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: care of the kids, sh'll go leave work and pick 147 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: them up when they're sick, and according to a Harvard study, 148 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: men prioritizing their careers over their wives while women tend 149 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: to prioritize their careers equally. I think I just felt 150 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: like two more great hairs. But that's this that positive discrimination, 151 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: those assumptions around mommy's versus lesbians, as if lesbians would 152 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: never have or adopt children, That is one of the factors. 153 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: You also have the factor of education and job choice. 154 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: Researchers have found that gay men and women are nearly 155 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: two times likelier to hold a bachelor's degree, which you 156 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: know often opens the door to better paying positions, particularly 157 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, white collar or professional positions that offer room 158 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: for advancement. And this is something that you see come 159 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: up a lot when people argue that, oh, the gender 160 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: worrige GOP doesn't exist at all, because it's just the 161 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: jobs that you're choosing, um and it is true if 162 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: we look at the sexual orientation gap, that gay men 163 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: and lesbians are proportionally overrepresented among the highest paying jobs, 164 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: including psychology and law. They're also overrepresented in university teaching 165 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: in social work, although of course, as you I guess, 166 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: social work and university teaching are not among the highest 167 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: paying jobs. Um And. This has also led researchers to 168 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: investigate whether there's this factor of lesbians picking jobs that 169 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: are a typical for women, for sis, straight women. Um And. 170 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: This was something that was looked at in a study 171 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: published in in the journal Social Forces. And it did, 172 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: in fact find that lesbians are less likely to work 173 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: in the retail industry for instance. Yeah, and so there 174 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: is this question of our gay men and lesbians concentrated 175 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: in certain jobs. There was a study and Administrative Science 176 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: quarterly that found that gay men and lesbians gravitate toward 177 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: professions with high task independence in other words, less reliance 178 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: on coworkers or managers, so like a fire safety inspector 179 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: or a massage therapist. Those were two examples they gave. 180 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: Uh And in addition to high task independence, they also 181 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: gravitate toward jobs with high social perceptive nous in other words, 182 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: requiring the ability to accurately read or predict other's emotions. 183 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: So what is going on with that? The researchers point 184 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: out that task independence makes it easier to hide sexual 185 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: orientation if you don't feel comfortable coming out. Um and 186 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: knowing how to read social cues for a lot of 187 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: people might be an important acquired skill when you're surrounded 188 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: by bigots your entire life. What an upshot to such 189 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: a downside? And when the researchers looked at traditionally blue 190 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: collar versus pink collar jobs, they found that when lesbians 191 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: end up in more blue collar jobs, they're often well 192 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: paying professions like being diesel mechanics, doing elevator and heating repair, 193 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: Whereas if they are in more pink collar jobs, they 194 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: tend to end up in more academic and social focus 195 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: jobs like psychologists, sociologists, or being training and development specialists. Yeah, 196 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: and another interesting factor that underlies this whole conversation. Researchers 197 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: predict that as society becomes more accepting of people in 198 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community, these associations and divisions could very well fade, 199 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: because they argue, if you are more accepted and less 200 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: afraid of coming out, then there wouldn't be as much 201 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: of a drive to go to those task independent positions. 202 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: And if you're not as worried about being attacked by 203 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: bigots around you physically or verbally, then you don't need 204 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: to have that heightened awareness necessarily of other people's emotions 205 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: and feelings. And that seems analogous to efforts to close 206 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: the gender gap with stem fields, where it's like, we 207 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: need to, uh, you know, a limit ate all of 208 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: these gender based barriers so that hopefully in the future 209 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: more girls will naturally be drawn to and I want 210 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: to say naturally, but will um be drawn to and 211 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: be able to retain jobs in those fields. And you 212 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: also have this terrific website called gay Money that's created 213 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: by journalist Joe Clark, and Clark looked at twenty years 214 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: of studies and found that lesbians tend to also work 215 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: longer hours because generally speaking, generally they are less likely 216 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: to have kids, so they can put in the longer 217 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: hours potentially earn that overtime on the job. And he 218 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: points out that you have to keep in mind that 219 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: these studies that we're talking about are dealing mostly with 220 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: lesbian couples, not single lesbians because they are easier to 221 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: identify in surveys. They're more likely to uh either be 222 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: out or or um publicly self identify in serve as 223 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: as lesbians, and so Clark calls for more research on 224 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: both single gay women and single or coupled bisexual women. 225 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: And of course at this point we want to note 226 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: that bisexual women are largely erased or just hidden in 227 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: a lot of these statistics. So what I'm hearing is 228 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: that the lesbian power couple trope is real, so real, 229 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: because when you toss a man into the equation, having 230 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: ever lived with a man, having ever coupled up with 231 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: a man, automatically your average salary goes down. And this 232 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: was something reported on in the Economists. So women who 233 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: have never lived with a male partner before make more 234 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: money than those who have, regardless of sexual orientation, and 235 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: this might be a result of striving for a higher 236 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: paycheck to compensate for making less than men overall. Um. 237 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: And you also have same sex couples being likelier to 238 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: be dual earners even when they have kids, which circled 239 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: back around to that whole egalitarian household thing. Yeah, and 240 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: so uh studies in two thousand and two thousand nine 241 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: found that lesbians who have lived with a man experience 242 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: a wage penalty of nine point five percent. They make 243 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: nine point five percent less than lesbians who had never 244 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: lived with a male partner. And so remember that six 245 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: percent wage premium we mentioned above, that lesbians have a 246 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: wage premium of six percent when you control for demographics 247 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah um, Well, for these women, 248 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: it drops to five point two percent for never married 249 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: to a man lesbians, which is still a good chunk 250 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: above women in opposite sex marriages, which is making me 251 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: real nervous about the fact that my fiance and I 252 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: are living together. It's like, do we do we need 253 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: to have separate homes so my income will rise? Well, 254 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: I mean, what researchers point out is that it maybe, 255 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe, like maybe this is a subconscious 256 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: thing that if you grow up and and trust me, 257 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: like I'm fully aware of the quibbles that will arise 258 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: when I say this, Like I agree, I understand, But 259 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: the researchers point out that maybe if you grow up 260 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: never having an intention to lean out buzzword and you're like, 261 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: I know, I'm a lesbian I don't want to live 262 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: with a man. I don't want to marry a man, 263 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: So therefore I will never have a man bringing home 264 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: the bacon. Uh. So I know I have to commit 265 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: myself to getting a good education. I've got to invest time, 266 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: money in education and climbing that career ladder because no 267 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: one's going to help me. Um. Although of course you 268 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: could argue, hello, there are women, gay, straight, bisexual, whatever 269 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: who also never planned to marry or have children. But 270 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: that is one factor that perhaps when you know that 271 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: you won't have a partner, or you assume you won't 272 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: have a partner who's bringing him more than you and 273 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: who can support you if you decide to stay home, 274 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 1: that you will feel compelled to. I guess work harder 275 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: and longer to make up for that. Well. And I wonder, 276 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: in terms of the growing up factor, if it's maybe 277 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: not so much like a ten year old girl being like, 278 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: I'm never going to have a man in my house 279 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: that's saving my cash. Um or if and this again 280 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: is would be something I would predict would change over 281 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: time and would have already improved, um where we are today. 282 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: But for that ten year old girl, say twenty years ago, 283 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: knowing that she's a lesbian and being like, I'm going 284 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: to have to work really hard and overachieve to compensate 285 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: for the discrimination that I'm very going to likely face. Yes, 286 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: And I would argue that that's probably more likely, especially 287 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: if you're talking about a ten year old. We need 288 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: to get a ten year old year where's our child consultant? 289 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: And you know, like we said, a lot of this, 290 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: a lot of this gap, this premium might relate back 291 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: to the fact, uh that gay couples tend to have 292 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: more egalitarian households, and we're gonna get into that when 293 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: we get right back from a quick break. Listen, you 294 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: need to know how to cook. 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Okay, 312 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: So we have talked on the podcast before about egalitarian 313 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: divisions of household labor when it comes to straight couples 314 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: versus gay couples, and that even if you are the 315 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: most feminist man woman couple in the world, instead of 316 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: saying opposite sex, I think it's fine, you're the same 317 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: man woman man woman couple in the world. Statistically speaking, 318 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: according to research, you will likely still see your household 319 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: labor divid iidit along gendered lines, and that means both 320 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, dude, it's going to be mowing the lawn 321 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: and fixing the car. Lady friend is going to be 322 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: doing the dishes and the laundry, And in addition to 323 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: lady friend doing the dishes and laundry, she's going to 324 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: be doing more of it and spending more time statistically 325 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: on housework than her man friend will. But when you 326 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: look at gay couples, as we talked about in that 327 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: long ago now egalitarian Household episode, gay couples don't grapple 328 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: with the same gender divisions, obviously, because when you're two 329 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: women living together in a romantic partnership, like, there's no script, 330 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: there's no schema telling you like you're the one who 331 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: mows the lawn and you're the one who does the dishes, 332 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: or you're the one who picks the kids up when 333 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: they're sick and you're the one who takes care of 334 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: the finances. There are fewer gendered expectations along those lines. 335 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: So if we go into one of those man woman homes, 336 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: I guess man will is all one word. Worldwide, women 337 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: spend four and a half hours a day on unpaid 338 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: work such as cooking and cleaning, whereas men spend about 339 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: half that time doing the unpaid work. But even in 340 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: the US, where women constitute of bread winners, and this 341 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: reminds me that we need to do an episode stat 342 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: on women breadwinners, because we are winning more bread than 343 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: ever before, bread and bacon. It's like Oprah says, I 344 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: love bread. Even in Oprah's bread loving homes, where women 345 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: are bringing it home and eating it too. Women still 346 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: spend more time on housework compared to men. But this 347 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: isn't just a thing of man. Those guys sure are jerks, 348 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: So letting just do all the work around here. Um. 349 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: There's also this concept of comparative advantage that may have 350 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: laid some groundwork when men were the ones who were 351 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: working outside the home for the most part. Um that 352 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: has fostered this pattern. So this is something that Marina 353 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: Ashad explains over at the Big Think, And basically, comparative 354 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: advantage means that people benefit from a task trade off 355 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: of each specializes in a task at which they're most efficient. 356 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: And so I'll use the example we've used many times 357 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: in this podcast, which is my dishwasher efficiency. It so 358 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: in my Mad Woman the Household, Uh, I do the 359 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: dishes because I'm better at loading up that dishwasher. I 360 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: know it, I'm proud of it. Whereas my fiancee is 361 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's also his his day job, but 362 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: he does things. He is the fixer of electrical things. Yeah, 363 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: and so there's that trade off. Yeah, he's expected to 364 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: do that, and it's okay because you're expected to do 365 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: this other thing and it's so gender normal, but it's 366 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: also are comparative advantage. I would electrocute myself if I 367 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: tried to be the fixer, and our dishwasher would be 368 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: a wreck if he took over ps he does wash dishes. 369 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: We trade off. He would be so frustrated if he 370 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: heard me saying this right now, because we're actually pretty 371 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 1: um Yeah. And so basically, when you take this concept 372 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: and look historically, men have historically been paid more to 373 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: work outside the home, which gives women the comparative advantage 374 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: in doing the household yours and taking care of the 375 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: kiddos and all that stuff, and so odd Shad wrote, 376 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: if a woman believes that she will eventually be married 377 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: to a man who earns a higher income than she does, 378 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: then she has less to gain from investing in human 379 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: capital that will give her an advantage in the labor market. 380 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 1: That's what we were referring to earlier. So when you 381 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: look at lesbians, women who have no intention of marrying 382 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: a man and indeed planned to spend life with another 383 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: woman who might make more less or the same amount, 384 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: They have none of those incentives to under invest in 385 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: their skills and education, and so this creates a situation 386 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: in which these women increase that X factor. So whether 387 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: it's education or skills or whatever, that gives them a 388 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: competitive advantage in the market. And like we said, obviously 389 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: not everyone falls along these lines. Were painting with a broadbrush. 390 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about gender norms, so obviously there's going to 391 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: be people who fall outside of those norms. And isn't uh, 392 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: speaking of increasing the X factor, isn't the X factor 393 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: also like a competitive singing show. Yes, so when lesbians 394 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: invest in voice lessons, they increase the X factor. That's 395 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: what we're trying to say. Yeah, surprise listeners, this episode 396 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: is actually a sneak attack promo for the X factor. 397 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: It's a twist, um, But there is actually a twist here. Okay, 398 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: because we've been talking as if gay men and women 399 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: are just walking around making it rain. They've got money 400 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: for days and days, but gay affluence is kind of 401 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: a total myth. Yeah, and it's a myth, and it's 402 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: been around for a long time. And Scalia Justice, Scalia 403 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: rest in peace. Uh he didn't invent it, but he 404 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: certainly perpetuated it when in one court descent he said 405 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: those who engage in homosexual conduct tend to reside in 406 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: disproportionate numbers and certain communities even more ominously. Though to Scalia, 407 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: these homosexuals have quote high disposable income, which gives them 408 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: quote disproportionate political power to achieve not merely a grudging 409 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: social toleration, but full social acceptance of homosexuality. Oh my gosh, 410 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: is the gay agenda acceptance? I was about to say, yeah, 411 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: it's like they so the Scalleia. I know Scalia was 412 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: a very smart guy, you know, conservatism notwithstanding, um, but 413 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: it seems so illogical to believe that gay men in 414 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: particular would somehow be wealthy enough to like fund a 415 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: gay quote unquote gay agenda, because if that were the case, 416 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 1: like wouldn't seem sex marriage and passed like forever ago anyway. Um, 417 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: not to speak ill of the dead, but yeah, moving on. 418 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: Uh So, where did this myth come from? What what 419 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: is behind it? And like so many things in America 420 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: and in the West, like marketing and advertising in Corporate 421 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: America is sort of behind this. Corporate America actually sought 422 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: to improve policies around LGBT people because they wanted to 423 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: create a viable consumer market, and they had marketing firms 424 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: conduct surveys to try to show not just affluence, but 425 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: disproportionate levels of brand loyalty as being a hallmark of 426 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: people in the LGBT community, but particularly gay men. This 427 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: is where we start to see those stereotypes of like, 428 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: oh my god, gayman just want to buy all the 429 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: shoes and suits. And I'm not saying that people of 430 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: whatever stripe don't want to buy all the shoes and suits. 431 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: I love shoes and I love a suit. Perfect together, 432 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: we are like one character in nine to five. Um. 433 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: But the thing is these weren't exactly scientific studies, and 434 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: it left out people in poverty who wouldn't be worth 435 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: marketing too for these corporations, and poverty is a huge 436 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: problem for the LGBT community and for lesbians in particular, 437 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: and that's something that is just ignored when we tend 438 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: to just view gay men and and lesbians as these 439 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: like affluent, care free, childless, like suit wearing shoe loving people. Yeah. 440 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean think about pop culture. You have the L word, 441 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: where from what I can remember, um, most of the 442 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: lesbian characters were very upwardly mobile. You have the first, 443 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, real portrayals of gay men on television in 444 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: a big way with Will and Grace. Will had plenty 445 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: of money in that huge apartment and also queer eye 446 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: for the straight guy. Yeah. What was that episode of 447 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: Sex in the City where Charlotte starts hanging around with 448 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of lesbians and yeah, the power lesbians, all 449 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: of the power lesbians and their suits and button ups 450 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: and glasses, and they finally kick her out because they're like, dude, 451 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: you're not a you're not a Listian. They didn't say that, 452 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: I remember exactly what they said that. Yeah, I don't 453 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: know if I can say that. Well. And then when 454 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: Samantha briefly dates a lesbian and she's a wealthy artist, Yeah, 455 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: there's Yeah, there is an investment pop culturally and marketing 456 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: wise in maintaining this you know, Scarry O type that 457 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: across the board. LGBT people are just rich and living 458 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: it up, and I wonder if that made it easier 459 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: to turn a blind eye to all the discrimination they face. 460 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: It's like they're fine because they can just pay for 461 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: a great lifestyle anyway, when in fact, data from u 462 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: c l a. S. Williams Institute finds that seven point 463 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: six percent of lesbian couples compared to five point seven 464 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: percent of married opposite sex couples live in poverty. Furthermore, 465 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: fourteen point one percent of lesbian couples received food stamps 466 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: compared to six point five percent of opposite sex married couples. Yeah, 467 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: and a few further stats, just over two percent of 468 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: women in same sex relationships receive government cash assistance compared 469 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: to just point eight percent of women in opposite sex couples. 470 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: And I mean this is this is bad enough when 471 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: you're looking at rates of poverty among lesbian couples, but 472 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: let's add some more factors, because it honestly only gets 473 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: worse when you add age to the mix. Women in 474 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: same sex couples who are sixty five and older have 475 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: nearly twice the poverty rate of women in opposite sex 476 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: couples of the same age. And of course, when you 477 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: add race to the equation, that makes a difference to 478 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: so queer women of color, trans women, and trans women 479 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: of color are specially vulnerable to poverty. You have African 480 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: American and Latino women in same sex couples being twice 481 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: to three times likelier to be poor compared to white 482 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: women in same sex couples. And then if we add 483 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: the layer of education, one third of lesbian couples without 484 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: high school diplomas live in poverty compared to just over 485 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: eighteen percent of different sex married couples. And of course 486 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: it changes when you change location as well. Yeah, so 487 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: lesbian couples who live in rural areas are much more 488 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: likely to be poor for ten compared to just four 489 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: and a half percent of couple of lesbians living in 490 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: large cities. And again, like geography, rural areas like that's 491 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: code for so much more, right, because living in a 492 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: rural area, you might not have access to the same 493 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: levels of education, healthcare, and jobs that women in urban 494 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: centers would. You also might face higher levels of discrimination 495 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: if in fact, those rural areas are more homogeneous and 496 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: don't have the same exposure to people of different backgrounds. Well, 497 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: and one of the big factors explaining a wage gap 498 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: premium for lesbians and love spian couples is the idea that, oh, well, 499 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: you know what, they won't be quote unquote mommy tract. 500 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: Here we go, let's let's pay him a little more money. 501 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: But when you do add children to the mix, which 502 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: is highly common for female same sex couples, you have 503 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: more poverty as well compared to people with kids who 504 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: are in those opposite sex relationships. Yeah, so just over 505 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: nineteen percent of kids who live with female same sex 506 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: couples are in poverty compared to just over twelve percent 507 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: of children who live with married opposite sex couples. And 508 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: in general, married or partnered LGBT people living in two 509 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: adult households with kids are twice as likely as comparable 510 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: non LGBT individuals to report household incomes near the poverty threshold. 511 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if that's also an issue of, like 512 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: I was saying, the job market and geography, because when 513 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: you look at the states with the highest proportions of 514 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: same sex couples raising kids, whether that's biological, adopted or 515 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: step kids, those include Mississippi, Wyoming, Alaska, Idaho, and Montana. 516 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: So I mean Mississippi like having major issues these days 517 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: with education, a healthcare crisis. They just passed a quote 518 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: unquote religious liberty law. So I mean there there are 519 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: so many factors that go into that go into the poverty, 520 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: the level of poverty that affects the LGBT community. And 521 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: this isn't just an issue of money, but how also 522 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: how money relates to our well being. So there is 523 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: a piece over in the Atlantic in UM that highlighted 524 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: a gallop pole which found UM a well being gap 525 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: essentially between queer women and street women. So queer women 526 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: scored slightly lower on an index of well Being UM 527 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: than straight women, and researchers think that those financial woes 528 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: play a large part because, for instance, queer men and 529 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: women are ten percentage points less likely to consider themselves 530 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: financial thriving compared to straight people. And there was a 531 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: piece in the Atlantic which highlighted a gallop pole which 532 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: found also a gap, a sexual orientation gap and well being, 533 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: which is sort of a complicated way of saying that 534 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: queer women reported lower levels of overall well being compared 535 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: to straight women. It wasn't a massive gap, of the 536 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,959 Speaker 1: queer women's index score was fifty seven compared to straight 537 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: women's score of sixty three, but a gap nonetheless, and 538 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: those financial issues that we were just talking about, with 539 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: all of those percentages certainly play a point because if 540 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: you also compare queer women and straight women and ask 541 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: both groups whether they feel what financially stable and even thriving, 542 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: you have straight women likely to say yes, ma'am, I am, 543 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: and that could be linked to issues that queer women 544 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: would uniquely face in the workplace, like employment discrimination and 545 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: inequitable healthcare coverage, families turning them away, and outright homelessness. 546 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: And when you look more closely at that whole idea 547 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: of thriving financially and you break it down according to 548 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: that sexual orientation hierarchy that we mentioned at the top 549 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: of the podcast, it is interesting to note that queer 550 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: women report a slightly higher average when it comes to 551 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: saying yes, I am thriving financially than queer men. And 552 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: why why would that be Because according to our hierarchy, 553 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: queer men still earn more than queer women in general. 554 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: But I think it breaks down in a way that 555 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: makes sense because gay men and bisexual men still make 556 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: less than their straight counterparts, so they're still being dinged. 557 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: So if you're separating it by gender that way, they 558 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: are being dinged. But when you look at queer women, 559 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: lesbians and bisexual women, they're earning more than their straight 560 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: lady counter parts. And so even though queer women are 561 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: making less than queer men on average, they are making 562 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: more than there as I said, lady counterparts who are straight, 563 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: but they also experienced far more poverty too. So I 564 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: mean it seems like there has to be like this 565 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 1: upper tier of high earning, high income lesbians who are 566 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: skewing that average a little bit, I would think. So, 567 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't have the stats in front of me. 568 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: I mean, if I if I know anything about math, 569 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: which is enough, listeners, it's quite enough. Um. I would 570 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: think that would have to be the case, because when 571 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: we then start looking at more of the I don't know, 572 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: the more of the median, I would be curious to 573 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: see what the median income would be because I would 574 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: guess that the median income for uh same sex female household, 575 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: which is such a clinical way to put it, Um, 576 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: a lesbian headed household would be closer to poverty level 577 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: than the one percent level. Yes, yeah, I think on average, 578 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: you would be right. Um. And when we look at 579 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: this well being scale from the gallop pole. Poor physical 580 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: well being also plays a massive part. As you might imagine, 581 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: only twenty four percent of queer women reported that they 582 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: were physically thriving, compared with thirty six percent of straight women. 583 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: Lesbian and bisexual women reported higher levels of both smoking 584 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 1: and drinking, and bisexual women in particular reported elevated weight 585 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: and psychological distress. And of course you also factor in 586 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: the incredibly low feelings of safety, security, and community involvement 587 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: that lesbian and bisexual women reported in this survey nine 588 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: percent less than straight women, for instance, and lesbian and 589 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: bisexual women also reported having a lower sense of purpose 590 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: in life than the straight women in the survey did. 591 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: And as I was listening to you saying all of 592 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: these these statistics, which paints such a kind of a 593 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: dismal picture, the first time in my head was, oh, 594 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: this has to be a little bit dated. I forgot 595 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: that we were talking about, which only goes to show 596 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: that while yes, it has gotten better in many ways, 597 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of work that needs to be done, 598 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: especially if we look at the concentrations of those uh, 599 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: lesbian households with kids and where those are in places 600 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: like Mississippi whose religious Liberty and Quotes bill is kind 601 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: of the one of the broadest um anti LGBT pieces 602 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: of legislation to ever pass. Yeah, exactly exactly, and it 603 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: I mean you talked about the whole mommy tracking thing. 604 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: The Williams Institute points out that it's not like lesbians 605 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: aren't striving to be parents. An estimated thirty seven percent 606 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: of LGBT identified adults, so not just women, have had 607 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: a child at some point in their lives. And the 608 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: study revealed that again it's more likely to be black 609 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: lesbians living in states like Mississippi, those are the lesbians 610 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: who are more likely to be parents. So again, multifaceted 611 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: issues around Soto, economics, race, education, well being, all of 612 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: these things tied together. And so while we see this, 613 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: we see these headlines about the lesbian wage premium, and 614 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: we think, oh, fabulous, how do we get there too? 615 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: It's more like, how can we all lift each other 616 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: up and support each other so that we aren't talking 617 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: about wage premiums and poverty. We're just talking about everyone 618 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: making and earning what they deserve well, And in the 619 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: internet news cycle that we all kind of swimming day 620 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: to day, the headline of lesbian wage premium is probably 621 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: far clickier and more viral than lesbians are living in poverty. 622 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: It wants to click on this and learn more. No, okay, well, 623 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: let's let's just talk about this one one big average. 624 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: That's how we got everybody to listen to the podcast. 625 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 1: That's true. It's true, sucked in um. And of course 626 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: we want to hear from our lesbian and queer listeners 627 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: about this issue, and not just you know, talking to 628 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: sis gender women either. I mean, clearly, the farther you 629 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: get from being a white, straight, sis gender dude, the 630 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: more complicated your salary situation can become. But like you 631 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: said earlier, Caroline, it's gonna be interesting, hopefully in a 632 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: really good way, to see how in the future, as 633 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: hopefully our society becomes more accepting, how the concentrations of 634 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: LGBT employees might spread away from those kind of pockets 635 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: that they're in right now. And also hopefully that hierarchy, 636 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: that income hierarchy evening out. Yeah, and hopefully more religious 637 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: Liberty Bill is being struck down or not succeeding. Yeah, 638 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: there's that whole thing too, So lots to write us about, listeners. 639 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts on this mom stuff 640 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 1: at how Stuff Works dot Com is our email address. 641 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or 642 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 643 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I've got a 644 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: letter here from Gia in response to our colorism episode. 645 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: Uh Gas says that she is from Papua and Indonesia, 646 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: but it is currently studying in the Netherlands. So Gas says, 647 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: thanks for the podcast on colors and it gives me 648 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: a word for a conversation I had with my sister 649 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: a few months ago. We were talking about an Instagram 650 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: account at Beautiful Papuan. It's an Instagram account that promotes 651 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: a beauty idea that is Populan by taking pictures of 652 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: Papua's who are gorgeous. My sister was critical of it 653 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: because this stress on beauty instead of brain is shallow. 654 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: My main criticism is because people featured in it are 655 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: mostly Papuans of mixed descent. I s spose I should 656 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: have begun by saying that Papuan's have a darker complexion. 657 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: We are more similar with people from the Oceana region 658 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: and have curly hair akin to African Americans in the 659 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: United States. However, the beauty ideal in Indonesia is parallel 660 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: to the one in the Philippines. We are inundated by 661 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: skin lightning products, and you don't see papuins in movies 662 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: or anything which may promote a different idea of beauty. 663 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: I welcome the Instagram account because I thought it could 664 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: be an outlet or an alternative for all the other 665 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: beauty ideas we are constantly receiving from the media that 666 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: exclude us. Let's skip the part that most people featured 667 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: our athletics, slender, extremely fashionable, and so on. That is 668 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: a different can of worms. My main criticism was based 669 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: in the fact that most of the people featured are 670 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: mostly people from mixed descent, someone with one parent from 671 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: Papua and the other from a different island. This means 672 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: that their hair is mostly wavy instead of curly, and 673 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: that their skin is lighter. Their skins are not fair, 674 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: but they are as close to fairness as a dark 675 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: skin papuin can be, and I thought this was a 676 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: pro blum for an account that wants to promote an 677 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: alternative ideal of beauty, but does so by revealing the 678 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: colorism we have. I myself am of mixed ascent and 679 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: am old enough not to care. But given the target 680 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: of this account, I wish they were more inclusive in 681 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 1: their promotion of a beauty ideal. Or am I expecting 682 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 1: too much from an account that shallow. In the meantime, 683 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: thanks for your work. I immensely enjoy listening to you 684 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: talking about women's issues. Your podcast always brightened my day. 685 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: So keep up the work and good luck with you. 686 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm pending wedding Kristen, so thanks to you, I think 687 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: I just felt be more great. Thank you. Though. I've 688 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: got a letter here from Sarah about our episode on 689 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: the politics of tanning, and she writes, in college, I 690 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: was part of a ballroom dance company. For our annual performance, 691 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: there is an expectation that we can We were told 692 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: that in the large auditorium under many stage lights, we 693 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: would either glow or become translucent. I believe company members 694 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,439 Speaker 1: with darker skin weren't expe died to tan, that others 695 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: would flock to get spray tans and share tips on 696 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: the best lotions. So around the same time, I started 697 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: noticing other conversations among students related to the tanning requirement. 698 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,760 Speaker 1: Tanning is actually common or even mandatory throughout the ballroom 699 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,959 Speaker 1: dance world, not just for performances, but for competitions which 700 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: often take place in gems or other traditionally lit venues. Clearly, 701 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: tanning here was not related to the effects of strong 702 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: stage lights. I learned that this tanning tradition in ballroom, 703 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: especially for Latin ballroom styles, stems from a desire to 704 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: quote look more Latin. In effect, people have used tanning 705 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: as a means of brown face in order to blend 706 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: into the desired aesthetic of the style. Of course, this 707 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: is super problematic, and at my small liberal arts college 708 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: this was not about to fly once people learned the 709 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: root of tanning in ballroom before the performance. The next year, 710 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 1: a group of students managed to shed light on this 711 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: issue enough to make tanning for the performing optional, both 712 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: for those with concerns of the racist implications and for 713 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,720 Speaker 1: those like me who have sensitive skin. Well, I'm proud 714 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: that we were able to make a small change to 715 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: our company's standing requirement. It's still a major part of 716 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: the competitive ballroom world. I wonder if there are other 717 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 1: areas of performance with practices of a similar nature and 718 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: hope that the Latin ballroom world will be able to 719 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 1: continue loving the sport and art without the racist practice 720 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: that seems so ingrained. So thank you so much, Sarah, 721 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: I had no idea about that. Caroline is shaking her 722 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: head as well. So as always, we learned so much 723 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: from a listeners, So keep on sending us your letters. 724 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: Mom stapp at house stepworks dot com is where you 725 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: can send them and for links to all of our 726 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: sources as well as all of our blogs, videos and 727 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn more about 728 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: the lesbian wage, premium and poverty. Head on over to 729 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For more on 730 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works 731 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: dot com