1
00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

3
00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,559
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

4
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

5
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

6
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,400
Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

7
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 1: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

8
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 1: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Hey, guys,

9
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: just finished recording Crystal conference. Is why I have the

10
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,919
Speaker 1: stone in the background instead of the brick in the background.

11
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: But there is a big piece of breaking news that

12
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,839
Speaker 1: we wanted to share with you as quickly as we

13
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,479
Speaker 1: possibly could if we could put this up on the screen.

14
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 1: From the New York Times, they have named the alleged

15
00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 1: leaker of that trove of highly classified documents, many of

16
00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: which had to do with the US involvement in the

17
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 1: Ukraine War. These were initially posted to a discord server

18
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 1: and then eventually leaked to the wider Internet. So what

19
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,040
Speaker 1: the New York Times says here and I'll just read

20
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,120
Speaker 1: directly from their report and then give you a little

21
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,560
Speaker 1: bit of my thoughts on the other side. Leader of

22
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: online group where secret documents leaked is air National Guardsmen.

23
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,200
Speaker 1: Federal investigators are searching for the person who shared top

24
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 1: secret documents that revealed government secrets about the Ukraine War.

25
00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: The article reads, the leader of a small online gaming

26
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 1: chat group where a trove of classified US intelligence documents

27
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 1: leaked over the last few months is a twenty one

28
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 1: year old member of the intelligence wing of the Massachusetts

29
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: Air National Guard. According to interviews and documents reviewed by

30
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: The New York Times, the National guardsmen, whose name is

31
00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 1: Jack Techsara oversaw a private online group called Thugshaker Central,

32
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: where about twenty to thirty people, mostly young men and teenagers,

33
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: came together over a shared love of guns, what they

34
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,920
Speaker 1: describe as racist online memes and video games. Two US

35
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 1: officials confirmed that investigators want to talk to airman Techsera

36
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 1: about the leak of the government documents. One official said

37
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: that he might have information relevant to the investigation, and

38
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,799
Speaker 1: of course, federal investigators have been searching for this individual

39
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: who was named in the group. I think they called

40
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: him the OG. The Washington Post had some reporting that

41
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 1: we brought you on Breaking Points this morning, where they

42
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: had interviewed one of the other members of this group,

43
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: a teenager who had to get permission from his parents

44
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,559
Speaker 1: to speak to the Post. That individual was kept anonymous,

45
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 1: but he indicated that you know the person who leaked,

46
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 1: who he referred to as og, that he was either

47
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,239
Speaker 1: in the military or worked on a military base. He

48
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,840
Speaker 1: talked about how his views, he would describe them as

49
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 1: sort of generally anti government. He named checked Ruby Bridge

50
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 1: and Waco as some sort of inspirations for his general

51
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,960
Speaker 1: right wing anti government views. According to that young man,

52
00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:01,000
Speaker 1: young teenager, he wasn't didn't model himself as a sort

53
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 1: of whistleblower. He moore was posting these documents because he

54
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 1: wanted to show to the group how important he was,

55
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,640
Speaker 1: I guess within the military and what he had access to.

56
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 1: And then of course was sort of clumsy and some

57
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 1: of the photographs that he took there were some stuff

58
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 1: in the background that the Times, the Washington Posts and

59
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: other outlets were able to use in part of their

60
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: effort to find whoever this leaguer was. So listen, is

61
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 1: it newsworthy who this person is? Sure? Is it interesting?

62
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: You know what their background is? How this all unfolded?

63
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely not denying that, but as we talked about this morning.

64
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: It also is extraordinary that these news outlets, they seem

65
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: to have focused most of their journalistic resources not in

66
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: uncovering the many other documents and secrets that he posted

67
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: that no news outlet to our knowledge has access to

68
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,040
Speaker 1: or even in digging to some of the stories that

69
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 1: we were able to bring you exclusively on breaking points

70
00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: simply because the mainstream press didn't cover them. But they

71
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 1: seemed to have focused most of their journalistic recas sources

72
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: on hunting down this individual and effectively doing the work

73
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,880
Speaker 1: of the US government. On MSNBC, you know, they immediately

74
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,880
Speaker 1: brought on David Ignatius, who used the cherry picked pieces

75
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 1: that were reported in the mainstream press to call for

76
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 1: a more hawkish approach towards Ukraine. And they brought on

77
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 1: their own in house security expert, who is a former

78
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,159
Speaker 1: former CIA to say that, you know, the top priority

79
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: was to quote catch the trader, so Washington Post in

80
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: New York Times assisting in finding this individual, at least

81
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,160
Speaker 1: apparently based on the information that The New York Times

82
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: was able to obtain. They said that, you know, some

83
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,280
Speaker 1: of the details that were in the background they were

84
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 1: able to match to details of the interior of his

85
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,279
Speaker 1: childhood home that had been posted on social media and

86
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 1: family photographs. Let me also give you a little bit

87
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 1: of reaction. They were able to talk to his mother,

88
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 1: who's named Don, speaking outside her home in Massachusetts on Thursday.

89
00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,080
Speaker 1: They say she confirmed that her son was a member

90
00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 1: of their National Guard. Said he had recently been working

91
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,359
Speaker 1: for night shifts at a base on Cape Cod and

92
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 1: in the last few days he had changed his phone number,

93
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 1: she said, probably a wise move. Again, federal investigators not

94
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,040
Speaker 1: confirming that they have identified this person as a leaker,

95
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 1: but saying that they are interested in speaking with him.

96
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: And then the last piece of this report is there

97
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 1: been questions about who exactly had access to these very

98
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,039
Speaker 1: sensitive materials, and according to The Times, not immediately clear

99
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,160
Speaker 1: if a young Air National guardsman in his position would

100
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 1: have had direct access to such highly sensitive briefings. So

101
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,400
Speaker 1: still a question of how he obtained the documents. So

102
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 1: basically that's what we know right now, guys, New York Times,

103
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 1: Washington Posts. They did the work of the federal government

104
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 1: making sure they tracked down the leaker, and wish now

105
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,919
Speaker 1: they would spend some more time digging into the documents

106
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 1: and the important implications thereof of more for you later, guys.

107
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 1: MSNBC's Jensaki, formerly of the Biden Whitehouse, had an interesting

108
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,599
Speaker 1: new interview. She claimed she is not a state propaganda.

109
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,360
Speaker 1: She actually sees herself as a journalist. Let's take a

110
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: listen to that. Do you consider yourself a journalist? I do,

111
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 1: because how do you define being a journalist? And I'm

112
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 1: gonna ask you this question. I don't know. I mean

113
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,279
Speaker 1: I was once told it was an out of work

114
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,960
Speaker 1: newspaper man. But you know, well, here's how I think

115
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, first of all, journalism has changed dramatically.

116
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,160
Speaker 1: Semaphore is an example of that, right, And even when

117
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 1: I was in the White House working in government, it

118
00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,240
Speaker 1: really was already all on a spectrum. It wasn't just

119
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 1: the New York Times, what Washington Post, ABC News and

120
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 1: then everything else wasn't considered part of journalism. It's all

121
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 1: a big, broad scope of things. And so to me,

122
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,359
Speaker 1: journalism is providing information to the public, helping make things clear,

123
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 1: explaining things, having conversations with people people want to learn

124
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,240
Speaker 1: more about. And so I think there is a broad

125
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 1: expansion of what that is. That is a very selective definition,

126
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,160
Speaker 1: which is technical true, but also involves not having government

127
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 1: actors be involved in said process. I actually think Ken

128
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 1: Vogel reacted to it, and he said, I look forward

129
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 1: to Jensaki's expose's about any of her former colleagues and

130
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 1: funding of democratic apparatus. That's what actual journalism looks like.

131
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 1: Otherwise you're just a partisan hack who is regurgitating something

132
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 1: in a media info system. Do not confuse yourself with

133
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 1: the other things. Well, she does something very clever there

134
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: as the very effective propagandas that she actually is, which

135
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 1: she seeks to like butter up Ben and the semaphore audience,

136
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: not that I think he's buying, and the semaphore audience

137
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 1: by being look at all of these platforms, of course,

138
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: the whole range and spectrum. This is all journalism which

139
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 1: exempts any scrutiny of the individual people who are conducting

140
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: the work at these platforms. And yeah, if you are

141
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: only focused on your quote unquote journalism to serve one side,

142
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: like one portion the stablishment wing of the Democratic Party,

143
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: your former boss, your former colleagues, et cetera, that's not journalism.

144
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 1: That's continuing to be a partisan operative, basically continuing the

145
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,800
Speaker 1: role that you had at the White House just now

146
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,400
Speaker 1: on a supposed news outlet platform. Yeah. I mean, listen,

147
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 1: the baseline of journalism you have to be willing to

148
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: hold power to account, whether it's whatever party is in

149
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 1: wherever you are looking. And she obviously fails that test,

150
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: or at least has so far. So if Ken's hopes

151
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,359
Speaker 1: come true and we see the expose as from Jensaki

152
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,839
Speaker 1: exposing the corruption or whatever within the Biden administration, then

153
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 1: we will change our tune here. It's bullshit, like it's

154
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: just not going to happen. We all know it's not

155
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 1: going to happen because we know where our bread is better. Yes,

156
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 1: this is not someone that you know, some people go

157
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: from journalism into a White House back into the world

158
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,199
Speaker 1: of journalism. That's already incredibly suspect. But this is someone

159
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 1: who was a political operative her whole career, Like she's

160
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, that is what she does. She is a

161
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: political operative on palf of the Democratic Party. There is

162
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 1: no reason to that she is not still filling that

163
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: key role over ATMSNBC. Now, absolutely correct, there's a horrific story.

164
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:09,599
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys followed this out of

165
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 1: Newport News Virginia, where a six year old brought a

166
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 1: gun to school and shot his teacher. You know, my

167
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,520
Speaker 1: first thought was, like, I'm six years old, Like you

168
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 1: probably didn't really know what he was doing. But apparently

169
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,599
Speaker 1: this kid had a very history of violent, aggressive, threatening

170
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,199
Speaker 1: behavior at the school, to the point where he was

171
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: actually required to have a parent with him every single

172
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: day at school. But there was no parent at school

173
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 1: that day. A variety of people had warned they thought

174
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 1: that he had a gun with him on that day.

175
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 1: The school said they searched his backpack, they didn't find it,

176
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 1: and then they didn't take any further action and he

177
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 1: ends up shooting his teacher. Well, now we have an

178
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 1: update in the case, which is the mother of that

179
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,319
Speaker 1: six year old child has now been indicted. Let's go

180
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 1: ahead and put this up on the screen. Mother charge

181
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: in case of Virginia six year old who shot teacher

182
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 1: at school. She's been criminally charged in connection with the case.

183
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 1: Deja Taylor, twenty five in Newport News is facing one

184
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 1: count of felony child neglect and one misdemeanor count of

185
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: recklessly leaving a firearm so as to endanger a child.

186
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,560
Speaker 1: The weapon the boy used in the incident belonged to

187
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 1: the mother Taylor, authorities have said. They went on to

188
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 1: say the Newport News Commonwealth's Attorney has asked a judge

189
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: to and panel a special grand journey continue to investigate

190
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: any security issues that might have contributed to the shooting,

191
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 1: suggesting the conduct of administrators or others who allegedly failed

192
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,160
Speaker 1: to act after being warned the boy had a weapon

193
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 1: would be further scrutinized. In addition to this, the teacher

194
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 1: who was gravely wounded just spoke down in a recent interview.

195
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 1: She is also taking action against the school for failing

196
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 1: to protect her, protect other students and deal appropriately with

197
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:54,680
Speaker 1: this situation. Let's take a listen to a little of

198
00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: what she had to say. Once the firearm went off

199
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: and then I felt some say that shock itself that

200
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: I had been shot. I knew you had been shot. Yeah,

201
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,199
Speaker 1: that was pretty shocking itself, But I just wanted to

202
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:18,400
Speaker 1: get my babies out of there. What did the kids do? Say?

203
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,680
Speaker 1: They were screaming. I think they knew as well that

204
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 1: they had to get out of there, but they were

205
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 1: extremely frightened and screaming. The police chief said, after that,

206
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 1: you had ensure that the kids got to a safe place,

207
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 1: said your actions were heroic. Do you remember what were

208
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 1: the next things that you did? That still kind of

209
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 1: a blur got them out and I went to get

210
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 1: help for myself. I knew why didn't not at the

211
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 1: time that my lung had collapsed, but I started not

212
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,319
Speaker 1: being able to breathe, very rasty breaths, and my visions

213
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 1: started going out. I remember I went to the office

214
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 1: and I just passed out. Zwerner's attorney, Diane Tuscano, filed

215
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 1: a notice of intent to sue school administrators, arguing that

216
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: the Richnick administration failed to take action after it was

217
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,720
Speaker 1: warned three separate times that the boy had a gun

218
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,680
Speaker 1: with him the day that Zerner was shot. And it's

219
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 1: not only that, let's put this Washington Post piece up

220
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 1: on the screen. So on that day there seemed to

221
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 1: have been failures to heed the warnings. It's in the

222
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,480
Speaker 1: Washing Posts they say how Rechnick Elementary failed to stop

223
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 1: a six year old from shooting his teacher. They say,

224
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 1: Abigail's Warner. That's the teacher was frustrated. It was January fourth,

225
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,160
Speaker 1: a six year old in her first grade class at

226
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: rich Neck Elementary School had stolen her phone slammed it

227
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: to the floor, apparently upset over a schedule change. According

228
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,959
Speaker 1: to text messages That's Warner sent to a friend, administrator,

229
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 1: she wrote were faulting her for the situation. The six

230
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: year old took my phone and smashed it on the ground,

231
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 1: as Werner wrote in a text message obtained by The

232
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,760
Speaker 1: Washington Post, and the administration is blaming me. Two days later,

233
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 1: the six year old told classmates at recon he was

234
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,640
Speaker 1: going to shoot Zwerner, show them a gun and its

235
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,560
Speaker 1: clip tucked into his jacket pocket, and threatened to kill

236
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 1: them if they told anyone. According to an attorney for

237
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: the family of a student who witnessed the threat, that afternoon,

238
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 1: the six year old did as he promised, firing a

239
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,839
Speaker 1: bullet through Zerner's upraised hand and into her chest as

240
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 1: she was midway through teaching a lesson. In addition, there

241
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,560
Speaker 1: were previous incidents that have been reported where he strangled someone,

242
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,360
Speaker 1: Where a girl that fell on the playground or dress

243
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 1: came up, he was touching her and appropriately using throwing furniture,

244
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 1: using furniture to bar that. I mean, this kid was

245
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 1: a menace. I mean, I don't know what was going

246
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: on with him, and the parents were supposed to be

247
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 1: there at school and no one was there on that. Well, look,

248
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 1: it's no six year old is born like that. You

249
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: learn it from They don't get this behavior out of nowhere. Now,

250
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that the kid is disturbed as hell,

251
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, but you know, you also get disturbed a

252
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 1: certain way, and almost certainly like a lot, especially when

253
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,640
Speaker 1: you hear about like really small children doing stuff that's

254
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: really in a appropriate they almost always get it from home.

255
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 1: So anyway, and that's based on long standing amounts of

256
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 1: research in terms of child behavioral patterns. Also, clearly I

257
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 1: think it's exactly the right charge to go after the mother, Yeah,

258
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 1: because they're going after for reckless endangerment, for recklessly not

259
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 1: handling a weapon properly. Be is a six year old child.

260
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 1: Like at the end of the day, it's like your

261
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 1: responsibility to care for all any gun owner, it is

262
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: driven into your head. It's like the safety of this firearm,

263
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,160
Speaker 1: everything that happens to it is your responsibility as owner

264
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: of this gun. And if you don't take responsibility for that,

265
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: you will suffer the consequences. She deserves one hundred percent

266
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 1: to suffer the consequences for what happened here and also

267
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 1: the school. You're right, I mean, clearly they didn't take

268
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 1: action in this way that they needed to, and they

269
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 1: should have either had suspension or gone to great lengths

270
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 1: to get in contact with the parents of the child

271
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 1: to see why exactly this was happening. Refer for some

272
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,360
Speaker 1: sort of behavioral therapy or something. So yeah, it's a

273
00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 1: mess all the way around. Yeah, I agree with you,

274
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: though charges of the mother here are entirely I'm glad

275
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: to see it. Yeah, she absolutely deserves me held accountable

276
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: for what she did. All right, guys, we'll see you soon.

277
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 1: Very excited to be joined by Norman Finkelstein. He has

278
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 1: authored a new book called I'll Burn that Bridge When

279
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 1: I get to it. Heretical thoughts on identity, politics, cancel culture,

280
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 1: and academic freedom. Let's get to it. Professer, welcome, great

281
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 1: to have you. Thanks so much for having me. You

282
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 1: were my you were my obsession during the burning campaign.

283
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: Well that is easy there, fellow, very flattering intellectual and

284
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 1: political obsession. I thought you were on the ball and

285
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 1: you were the best during that period. It was very invigorating,

286
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 1: energizing to watch your commentary during that period, and I

287
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 1: should give it the form recognition. Of course, when I

288
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 1: first heard your name, I thought, okay, she's got to

289
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 1: be a flake, Crystal. You judge me prematurely, sir, that's correct,

290
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 1: That's correct. And I start to watch the program and

291
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 1: I started to tell everybody, you really have to watch

292
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 1: Crystal Bolk, She's just the best. Well, thank you. That's

293
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 1: unbelievably flattering. I really it means a lot to me

294
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: coming from such an intellect as yourself, And the Bernie

295
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 1: campaign is actually a good place to start with, Like,

296
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,400
Speaker 1: what do you make of his two successive campaigns? What

297
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,479
Speaker 1: do you make of the relative success of those campaigns

298
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 1: given me, you know, utter decimation of the left in

299
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, most of my political lifetime. And what do

300
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 1: you think are the particular rocks that it crashed into. Well,

301
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: that's actually a big question. I'm going to try to

302
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: summarize it briefly, and then you can pursue any line

303
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 1: that seems relevant to you. The most important thing, excuse me,

304
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 1: the most important aspect of the Berni campaign, in my opinion,

305
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 1: is that it brought to a surface of political possibility

306
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 1: that rarely that with rare exceptions, anybody thought was really

307
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,160
Speaker 1: a plausible political campaign. When I say almost rarely, with

308
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 1: rare exceptions, that includes Bernie Sanders. When Bernie Sanders went

309
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,679
Speaker 1: out in twenty sixteen, his expectation was he was just

310
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 1: going to do some stump speeches for his socialist agenda

311
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: and then retire back into his home. And then he

312
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,920
Speaker 1: was totally shocked, as he said many times, that suddenly,

313
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 1: like mushrooms after arranged, the huge numbers of people started

314
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:41,320
Speaker 1: to show up. And so what Bernie Sanders campaign demonstrate

315
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: was that there's this huge potential out there for building

316
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 1: a class based or class struggle political campaign and agenda.

317
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 1: Bernie did a lot of I should say firstly about

318
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 1: Bernie himself, as many people said, Bernie for fifty years

319
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: has been saying the same thing, and of course there

320
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 1: was a lot of truth to them. The thing was,

321
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,679
Speaker 1: it's not that Bernie caught up with the times. It

322
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 1: was at the times caught up with Bernie Sanders. That

323
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: is to say, in the nineteen seventies, the Bernie style

324
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 1: politics had very relatively little resonance in the United States

325
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 1: for the simple reason that the economy for most people,

326
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 1: I would say for the overwhelming majority of people, the

327
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: economy was functioning. Functioning meant that each generation had a

328
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 1: reasonable expectation that it would live a better life than

329
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 1: the generation that preceded it, And so Bernie espoused a

330
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:39,080
Speaker 1: socialist aquasi socialist agenda, but the times were not yet

331
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 1: ripe for it. And if you go back to my generation,

332
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: even in the Marxist writings of the time, you'll be surprised.

333
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 1: I know you majored in economics, but I don't know

334
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 1: how much you know about the history of Marxism in

335
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 1: general or in US. In the United States, the main

336
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 1: writings in the nineteen sixties about Marxism by the Mark

337
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: just Left were about Marx's concept of alienation, meaning alienated

338
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,440
Speaker 1: from your job. The assumption was you would have a job.

339
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,639
Speaker 1: The assumption was you would have a nine to five job,

340
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 1: five days a week, forty hours a week. You would

341
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 1: get a pension, you would get vacation and self work.

342
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 1: That was the assumption for our generation. The problem was

343
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 1: most people felt alienated from their job. Most people felt

344
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: unfulfilled by their job. Most people who were looking for

345
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 1: meaningful work. So at that point people turned back to

346
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 1: what was called the young marks not. The contrast was

347
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 1: between the young marks and the mature marks. The young

348
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 1: marks talked about alienation, alienation, so it resonated. But the

349
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 1: marks that talked about capitalist crises, the marks that talked

350
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: about the polarization of wealth, that had very very little resonance.

351
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: Now beginning in the nineteen eighties, over a very long term,

352
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: but nonetheless beginning in the Reagan era, a stagnation in

353
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 1: wages set in and simultaneously a polarization of wealth. And

354
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 1: so come twenty twenty, when Bernie sets out on the

355
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: campaign trail, suddenly those tendencies which began in the early

356
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, those tendencies had reached a critical point, critical mess,

357
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: and people started resonating to the Bernie campaign. It took

358
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 1: a while for those tendencies to unfold, but once they had, Bernie,

359
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 1: as I said, his main importance, in my opinion, was

360
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: he brought to the surface a class based agenda which

361
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: now its time had come. I would say Bernie was

362
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: quite sharp, acute in having clearly defined and these are

363
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: not easy things. When I've been reading a lot of

364
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 1: the old Marxist literature from the beginning of the twentieth

365
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: century and one thing that's very striking when you read

366
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: the literature is the difficulty in defining a political slogan. Now,

367
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 1: it may seem to you perfectly obvious what a political

368
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: slogan should be at any particular moment, but in fact

369
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: that's one of the most difficult things in politics, to

370
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: define the right slogan for the right moment, which will advance.

371
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 1: Because and Bernie, it took him time, but he came

372
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 1: up with the right slogans. It was very simple. Was

373
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: Medicare for all, abolished student tuition, abolished student debt, a

374
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: Green New Deal, and I think those for with the

375
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: main There was one other, but it just slipped my mind,

376
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 1: and so it was hugely successful. Now, I don't want

377
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: to take up all your time, even though I said

378
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: that question was brought. I want to just get to

379
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 1: the second, the the second part, namely what went wrong.

380
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: And I think first of all, we ought not to forget.

381
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: And you, Crystal, will know better than anybody else because

382
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: I watched you religiously during the Bernie campaign. You know

383
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: more than anyone else will know how close Bernie came.

384
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, I think that's all completely forgotten. Yeah,

385
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: up until South Carolina. Up until South Carolina, it looked

386
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: like he was going to win. People like James Carville

387
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: and Chris Matthews were, you know, they were decomposing on

388
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: screen in real time. They were becoming positively hysterical at

389
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: the prospect of this Bernie victory. So were it not

390
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: for South Carolina, now, I don't think South Carolina was inevitable,

391
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you things I know. You know, in

392
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: the last week before that South Carolina primary, poles were

393
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: showing that Bernie would win in South Carolina. It was

394
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: at that point that the screws were turned on Jim Clyburn,

395
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: who up to that point said he would sit out

396
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: recommending any endorsing anyone in the South Carolina primary. The

397
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: screws were turned on him. He endorsed Biden, and at

398
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: that point, the exit polls right after the primary show

399
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: that sixty percent of Blacks were influenced by that Clyburn endorsement.

400
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: And then, as you know, right afterwards, Obama entered the

401
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: same turned the screws on Pete Budachig and probably also

402
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: any Klobynshar and so to speak, the rest is history.

403
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: Had Bernie won in South Carolina, and as I said,

404
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: it was kind of just the fluke that he lost.

405
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: Had he one, then it was clear he would win

406
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: Super Tuesday, and he had the nomination in his bag.

407
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 1: And then you can go on to say, I think

408
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,959
Speaker 1: he probably would have destroyed Trump in the debates, and

409
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: instead of between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty we sat

410
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: through a Donald Trump presidency, it was pretty close that

411
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: we would have sat through a Bernie Sanders presidency. Now

412
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: I recognize that the moment he got the nomination, the

413
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: whole ruling elite would have coordinated collaborate to stop Bernie,

414
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: and that would have been a very big hurdle to pass. Question,

415
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: they were good, The prospects were quite good for the

416
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: Bernie campaign. Now, let me just get to the last part.

417
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: What went wrong? My opinion, the main thing that went

418
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: wrong is Bernie did not follow through on what he promised.

419
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: Bernie was repeatedly asked during the campaign a simple question,

420
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: mister Sanders, you possibly believe that you can get your

421
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: agenda through Congress? And that was obviously a reasonable question,

422
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: and Bernie always answered the same way. I thought his

423
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: response was reasonable. He said, of course I can't get

424
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: through it, get my agenda through Congress. The way Congress

425
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: is currently structured, The only way I can get it

426
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: through is I bring masses of people into the street.

427
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 1: That you have to organize, educate people, and bring them

428
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: out into the street. Just like during the Civil rights movement.

429
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: You know, you have to commit civil disobedience, you have

430
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: to be willing to go to jail. I think there

431
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: were the young people, those who turned up for those

432
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand person rallies in all the major cities.

433
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: I think the young people would have done it. You know,

434
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: their future is at stake. They were ready for that,

435
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: they were primed for that. But what happened once Bernie

436
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: lost the campaign, He became what he had been for

437
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: forty years. He became the gadfly in Congress again. He

438
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: had to make a choice. The choice was very simple.

439
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: It was the choice was if he wanted to have

440
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: Biden's ear. If he wanted to have Biden's ear, he

441
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: had to drop the idea of bringing young people into

442
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: the streets, or people in general, but in particularly young

443
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: people into the streets, because he knew Biden would then say,

444
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: what the hell are you doing? What's doing with your revolution?

445
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: This is Congress, what are you talking about? And so

446
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: he had to make a choice between trying to influence

447
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: as much as possible Biden behind closed doors, or using

448
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: his platform in Congress with a Biden presidency to bring

449
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: masses of people into the street and try to push

450
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: through a radical agenda. He chose the first, and from

451
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: there on in I think it was pretty much a disaster,

452
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: and I think I'm deply disappointed in burning now, sometimes

453
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: to the point of real visceral anger, the way he's

454
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: conducted himself, say on the question of Ukraine, saying things

455
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: like I trust Biden? Why would you trust Biden? Can

456
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: you tell me something about his career in foreign policy

457
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: that would cause you to trust him on foreign policy?

458
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: What was he so great in the war in Vietnam?

459
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: Was he great in the war in the wreck? Is

460
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: his judgment so good? Was he was he great on Blincoln?

461
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: And the fact that now Biden, excuse me, Bernie dismisses

462
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 1: anybody who criticizes and he says, quote, who's paying you?

463
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: What you have to be paid to be critical of

464
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: the war in Ukraine? You have to be paid for saying, hey,

465
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: sending over a hundred billion dollars to Ukraine without no checks,

466
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: no balances, no oversight. There might be a problem there.

467
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: You have to be paid to say, you have to

468
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: be paid to think that. Well, maybe a lot of

469
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: people who are quite conservative normally, like Johnniersheimer over at

470
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: University of Chicago or Jeffrey Sachs. Okay, Jeffery sax is

471
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: a liberal. But many people who are quite conservative say

472
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: the United States provoked the war. Let me ask you this,

473
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: let me hey, norm let me cut you off there,

474
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. Why couldn't Bernie have done

475
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: both of those things? So, for example, one of the

476
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: arguments I made is that when push came to shove

477
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: and it looked like Bernie was going to drop out,

478
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: he sat down with Joe Biden and it looked like

479
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: he did a hostage video where he was endorsing Joe

480
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: and saying, Joe, do you support Medica? Do you support

481
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: fifteen dollar minimum wage? And Biden was like, yeah, oh yeah.

482
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: Bernie asked for fifteen dominimum wage. This seemed very contrived,

483
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: very fake. But why couldn't he have basically tried to

484
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: have the ear of Joe Biden talked to him reasonably,

485
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: say look here, my demands. If you want my endorsement,

486
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: this is what you have to do. Here's like a

487
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: list of executive orders or whatever, and give Joe Biden

488
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 1: a chance, and then if he doesn't follow through, that's

489
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: when you effectively call your people up to put some

490
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: bodies in the streets. I feel like it's a little

491
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: bit of a false choice to say he either could

492
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: choose one or choose the other. I think he could

493
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: have done both. I think you could have effectively tried

494
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: to navigate within the system, and then if you don't

495
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: get the results by wheeling and dealing and talking to

496
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: Joe and making agreements, if you can't get the result,

497
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: then you put the bodies in the streets. Don't you

498
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: view that third option as a real possibility. Depend Look,

499
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm not a mind reader. Unlet sure I read. I

500
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: don't bring on body language readers to figure out what's

501
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: going on in people's heads. My assumption is that if

502
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: that had been a real option for Bernie Sanders, and

503
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: since he kept referring to our Revolution, and he titled

504
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: his book on the campaign Our Revolution, and he raised

505
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: young people in particular their expectations very high, I have

506
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: to assume that unless he was a liar, which I

507
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: find completely implausible. I have to assume that he weighed

508
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: in his mind the possibility of bringing people into the

509
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: street and how President Biden would react to that. And

510
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: President Biden, he's a man who works in Congress. He's

511
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: a person who has a very conventional approach to politics.

512
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: He has obviously his allegiances to elites. And I think

513
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: Bernie reached the conclusion, but I can't prove it. I

514
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: just say, based on what one appeared, can deduce from

515
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: his track record that he was an honest guy, he

516
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: was a decent guy, and he is an honest guy

517
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: and a decent guy. But he didn't think there was

518
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: that third adoption. Otherwise, I can't, for the life of me,

519
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: figure out why he didn't exercise that their adoption, especially

520
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: since in the course of the campaign he kept saying,

521
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: that's what I'm gonna do, you know, Arctic push through

522
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: my agenda. I'm going to bring people into the streets. Now,

523
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: you could say that was all rhetoric, that was all talk.

524
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: He never intended to do it. Okay, that's a possibility,

525
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: But assuming as I do, that he was speaking in

526
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 1: good faith, my view was that he must have you know,

527
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: got that. He used the expression I used earlier joining

528
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: our pre pre conversation. He must have gotten that vibe.

529
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: And he knows Biden. Biden's a personal family friend, as

530
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, he got that vibe. This is not going

531
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: to work with Biden, and so he did. You know,

532
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: Bernie has quite impressive levels of energy, and I'm sure

533
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: behind the scenes he's doing everything he can to sway Biden.

534
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: But in my view, that's very limited. It's very limited

535
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: what you can do. There's a see I mean, we've

536
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: really seen how limited that has been. In you know,

537
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: you had build back Better. A lot of that was

538
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: architect architected by Bernie to start with, and then there's

539
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: like every week they would shoot some other critical piece

540
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: of it in the in the head until Joe Manchin

541
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: just says, no, we're going to kill the whole thing,

542
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: and then everyone is delighted when you get anything through

543
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act. But I think we've seen very

544
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: clearly the limits of the tactics that have been chosen

545
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: for whatever reason they've been chosen. I want to get

546
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: to some of the core of your book here, and

547
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, there's been this whole discussion. Lately. You mentioned

548
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: you're on with Brionna Joy Gray partly sparked by a

549
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: viral incident on her show where someone who was on

550
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: the program to talk about how the left and their

551
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: wokeism is destroying our children or families or something like that,

552
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: and she was unable to define this term wokism, which

553
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: has come to be the sort of umbrella term for

554
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: the right wing to dispatch with anything that they don't like.

555
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: You know, they blamed the Silicon Valley Bank collapse on

556
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: wokism because they had like a gay person on the

557
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: board or something like that. So I wonder if you

558
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: could contrast the right wing obsession and use of the

559
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: word woke and their own critique of identity politics with

560
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: the critique of identity politics that you have. Well, I

561
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: watched that, or at least I watched the reruns of

562
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: that incident with Rihanna Joy Gray. In my opinion, she

563
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: probably did act in good faith. Wasn't a gotcha moment,

564
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: Oh no, she was just trying to define the term.

565
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: I was a very very simple, straightforward question. You know,

566
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: try to do that multiple times with multiple guests too,

567
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: who people bring up wokeness. She's like, just tell me

568
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: first what you mean by wokeness. That's totally sincere. Yeah. Oh,

569
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: Brianna Joy Gray is a former corporate lawyer, so she

570
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: goes defining terms. Is the first, you know, the first

571
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: aspect of conversation or briefs. You have to define the terms. Okay.

572
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: When that incident happened, it did cause me to reflect

573
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: because a lot of the book was written in a

574
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: manner of self discovery. I can't say I came into

575
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: the book with a big concept and I was going

576
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: to lay out the argument that had already been pre

577
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: formulated in my mind. I worked through the argument as

578
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: I was writing the book, and so when that question

579
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: came up, I had to ask myself what do I

580
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: mean by wokes Because I do use the term. Maybe

581
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: the far right uses it also, But you'll remember, in

582
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: my generation it was the left that coined the term

583
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: political correctness or PC. It was a kind of self mockery.

584
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: But then that PC was appropriated by the right. In

585
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: this case, even if the right uses the term weocism,

586
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: I'm perfectly at ease with it. But what do I

587
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: mean by it? I would say wocism is basically three things.

588
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: Number one, Wocism is the attempt by the Democratic Party

589
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: to create a new base with the mass defection exiting

590
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: of the white working class. In my generation, the base

591
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party were white workers. It was the

592
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: trade unions which were the real core of the Democratic Party,

593
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: and the white working class in general, which had prospered

594
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: in administrations beginning with FDR the New Deal, and so

595
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: they were quite loyal, very loyal, not quite loyal, very

596
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: loyal to the Democratic Party, even to the point. My

597
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: brother tells a story that my father, who was a

598
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: factory worker, my father once whispered into my brother, my

599
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: elder brother's here, he said, always vote Democrat. Republicans off

600
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: for rich people or Democrats for working people. That was

601
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: the scene qua non of the Democratic Party, that the

602
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: white working class bill. That changed, and a change actually

603
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: quite quickly. If you ever had the chance, you should

604
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: sit down and go and google Mario Cuomo, the father

605
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: of Andrew Romo. Mario Cuomo, nineteen eighty four Democratic Party

606
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: Convention and Cuomo's feat which was very famous. It was

607
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: actually elegantly delivered, elegantly written and elegantly delivered. Wasn't this

608
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: whole pay in to the working class the white working class,

609
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: and that the Republicans with a party of the rich

610
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: the leisure class. Well, that's obviously changed. There's been mass

611
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: affections of the white working class from the Democratic Party,

612
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: and the Democratic Party had to create a new base.

613
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: And the base that chose was the identity politics space.

614
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: If you look at the I watched closely on YouTube

615
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party convention in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty,

616
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: and if you watch it, the working class is just

617
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: barely mentioned. The only one who mentions the burly working

618
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: class is AOC I think the second day of the convention,

619
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: and that was about it. It was all taken up

620
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: with various identities, biological identities. Who was the core and

621
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: saw With Biden, he chooses a black female vice PRESI

622
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: mention candate defens is, I'm going to nominate a black

623
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: female Supreme Court justice. Then he chooses a black female,

624
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: lesbian press secretary. That's where they're going, though. Biden is

625
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: an interesting case. He's a more ambiguous case because clearly

626
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: from the last State of the Union address, he's clearly

627
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: trying to pitch his campaign, his next campaign to try

628
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: to win some of that white working class. So the

629
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: first aspect of wealth politics is the replacement of the

630
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: white working class by the identity politics class or groups,

631
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: not class groups. And number two, walth politics is the

632
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: Democratic Party instrumentalizing identity politics in order to derail any

633
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: class struggle or class based campaign. That's not speculative, that's

634
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: not theoretical, that's factual. So if you take the high

635
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: priests and high priestesses of identity politics, there is Tannahisi

636
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: Coats attacking Bernie Sanders to being quote weak on the

637
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: black reparations question. Then you have Angela Davis saying that

638
00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: Bernie is weak in conceptualizing racism. Then you have Kimberly

639
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: Crenshaw telling The New York Times that the real action

640
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: is not with these old white Jewish schmucks like Bernie Sanders.

641
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: The real action is the corporations. It's Amazon, which now

642
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: is honoring Black Lives Matter as honoring gay pride. That's

643
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: where the revolutionary action now is, says Kimberly Crenshaw. And

644
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: then you saw this very strange phenomenon, not strange, i

645
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: should say, but very indicative fuck phenomenon. The New York

646
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: Times is now the most woke institution on God's Earth.

647
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: The characteristics that most the saline characteristics of New York

648
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: Times during those campaign years where number one hyper hyper

649
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: woke and number two hyper hyper anti Bernie as you

650
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: were call Crystal. With the first half of the second campaign,

651
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: Bernie was whited out of the Times, and then when

652
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: he gained too much momentum despite the whiting out, then

653
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: they start to go at him with a vengeance. Now

654
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: that to me is a very telling fact. The most

655
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: woke institution in the United States was also the most

656
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: anti Bernie institution. Then you go to MSNBC, another hyper

657
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: woke media outlet, which is also hyper anti Bernie, much

658
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: more anti Bernie, incidentally than Fox News, which gave him

659
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: a very warm kind reception. You had joy Read, as

660
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, bringing on a body language reader to

661
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: prove that Bernie is a congenital liar. Then you have

662
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: hyper hyper woke the view. And who's the hyper hyper

663
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: hyper presence on the view. It's Whoopy Goldberg. And what

664
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: does Whoopy do? She snarls at Bernie? When are you

665
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: getting out of this race? Already? That was the moment

666
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: of truth. All of these super woke radicals, the moment

667
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: of truth. They all joined the Democratic Party to stop

668
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 1: the Bernie locomotives. And that's number two. The identity politics

669
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: has been weaponized to stop dead in its tracks, a

670
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: class based politics. And number three three wokeness is a

671
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: very convenient way for rich white liberals to have their

672
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: cake and eat it. That is to say, to show

673
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: how radical they are, to show how cutting edge they

674
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: are without having to sacrifice any privilege, without having to

675
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 1: pay any price. So everybody at Matha's vineyard, they all

676
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: want Angela Davis to speak there so they can show

677
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: how down with the hood they are. They're rubbing shoulders

678
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: with Angela Davis. If you go to the web, you

679
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: see a lecture that Angela Davis gave at the University

680
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: of South Carolina. I was curious because Angela Davis was

681
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: a real inspiration for me in my youth, so I

682
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: tuned it in. What she's saying. Now, she's introduced by

683
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: this southern bell with this beautiful shock of blonde hair,

684
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: who is the second richest billionaire in South Carolina and

685
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: the second richest billionaire only half jokingly gives a talk

686
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: about how she and Angela have so much in common. Well,

687
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: that's true, how she and Angela have so much in common.

688
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: That's these woke people who get to pretend to be

689
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: so radical and cutting edge without having to make any sacrifice.

690
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: Now you will not remember unless you have a memory

691
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: reaching back to before conception. In the most literal sense.

692
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: There was a famous incident in the nineteen sixties when

693
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: the Black Panthers were being hounded by the government. Leonard Bernstein,

694
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: who was a kind of Martha's Vineyard liberal, invites the

695
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: Black Panthers to his home, and all the famous people

696
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: on the left, what we called back then the radical Sheikh,

697
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: attended this sore at Bernstein's home, and then along came

698
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: this journalist named Tom wolf He attended the event. Wolfe

699
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: was on the right end of the spectrum, and he

700
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: wrote this absolutely scathing send up of that soiree, and

701
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: it really was so humiliating to those who attended, not

702
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: least mister Bernstein, and I personally have to say, when

703
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: you read Tom Wolfe's book, it's to use a word

704
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: from your generation, it's really cringe powerful. Leonard Bernstein giving

705
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: the high fire to the Panthers. But you could say,

706
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: in defense of Bernstein, that was an unpopular thing to do,

707
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: getting him in trouble. But now when they're rich and

708
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: the famous in Martha's vineyard, they hang out with Angela.

709
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: Is there any price paid? Is there any sacrifice? Now?

710
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: You might say to me, okay, norm we're not martyrs.

711
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 1: We on the left. We don't, you know, have any

712
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of desire to be nailed to the cross. So

713
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't accept your standard, to which I say, I

714
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: don't agree. I think part of being on the left

715
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: has always been, until recently, it's always been willingness to

716
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: make a sacrifice. I was just reading last night Rose

717
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: of Luxembourg's letters. So Rose of Luxemburg, who was a

718
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 1: Titanic personality, probably the most impressive personality and the whole

719
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: history of mar to socialism. She spent many times in jail,

720
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: and actually she spent almost the whole of World War

721
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: One in jail. And at one point she's given the

722
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: jail sentence and she's out on her own recognizance, and

723
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: some people say, you know, maybe, Rosa, you should jump

724
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: out and get the hell out of there, you know,

725
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: because you've been in jail enough. And she was a

726
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: physically very frail woman. And she replied to one correspondent,

727
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: if you allow me to just read it's just one

728
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: paragraph that there are comrades who can assume I would

729
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: flee Germany because of the prison sentence. I could be

730
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: quite amused by that if it were not at the

731
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: same time rather saddening. Dear young friend, she's talking to

732
00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: a young man or correspondent. Dear young friend, I assure

733
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: you that I would not flee even if I were

734
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: threatened by the gallows. And that is so for the

735
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: simple reason that I consider it absolutely necessary to accustom

736
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: our party to the idea that sacrifices are part of

737
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: a socialist work in life, that they are simply a

738
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: matter of course. You are right, long live the struggle

739
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: that was the inspiration from my generation. And then when

740
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: I see, on the one hand, all of these you know,

741
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 1: phony identity politics radicals, Judith Butler announces in twenty twenty,

742
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: as if it were the Paris Commune, as if it

743
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: were the Bolshevik Revolution, as if it were the Chinese Revolution,

744
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: as though it were the civil rights movement. She announces,

745
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: I am here with changing my pronouns to they them.

746
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, I was talking about the difference between how

747
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 1: leftists have a critique of identity politics or wocism versus

748
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: the right wing critique. And oftentimes, you know, the way

749
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 1: I see it is very similar to how you see it.

750
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: You won't be surprised to learn, which is that this

751
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: is sort of like a roadblock thrown up in the

752
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: way of any sort of more fundamental or class based change.

753
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: The right portrays it as actually, in and of itself,

754
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: this very radical transformation, and they like to claim that

755
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: this is a next evolution of Marxism. They'll explicitly tie

756
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: it in with Marxist thought. And I wonder what your

757
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 1: view of that is. Well, the most obvious reason it's not. Actually,

758
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: it's just the reverse of Marxist thought. I don't want

759
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: to make a fetish of Marxist thought. To be perfectly candid,

760
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: and I see no reason why not to be perfectly candid.

761
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: I've read very little of marx in the last thirty years.

762
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: I read voraciously as a young man, but I passed

763
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: that stage for bever or or for worse, and I've

764
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 1: read very little of it. But one thing you could

765
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: say for certain a marx analysis always began, or essential

766
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: aspect of it was class. Now, Marxism was never indifferent

767
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: or unaware of non class issues. When you read the

768
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: literature from back then, I'm talking about the late nineteenth

769
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: to the mid part of the twentieth century, there was

770
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: a rich debate about what was called the woman question,

771
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: what was called the Negro question, what was called the

772
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: Jewish question. Within the Marxist movement or Socialist movement. Forget

773
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: about Marxim now Socialist movement, there was always a recognition

774
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: that there were certain questions women, Blacks, Jews that was

775
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: not reducible to class, that they had aspects it had,

776
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: they had aspects which were in over that went past class,

777
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: overflowed class, over flowed class. However, if you considered yourself

778
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: a person of the left, there was a recognition that

779
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: class was the fundamental political issue, not the only one,

780
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: but the fundamental issue. Now you look at the identity politics.

781
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: What identity politics did was it appropriated the questions, the

782
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 1: women question, the Negro question, the Jewish question. It appropriated

783
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: the questions and the locked off the class. If you

784
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: read Abram x. Kendy, there are a couple of passing phrases,

785
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: a couple of passing phrases referring to class. If you

786
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: read Robin DeAngelo, a couple of stray fragments pertaining to class.

787
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: Class has been locked off except in one critical sense,

788
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: and probably for the exponents of identity politics the most

789
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: or close to their heart sense. They want to be

790
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: part of, to use the language of, to use the

791
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: language of the one percent. They want that one percent

792
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: to include a proportional representation of, for example, women of

793
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: African Americans. They want to have their seat at the

794
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: ruling class table. That's the aspect of class which they're

795
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: very cognizant of. And so and now to tell you something,

796
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: Crystal and Kyle, it's actually a realistic expectation. You know,

797
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: because of this huge chasm that's opened up between the

798
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: so called ninety nine percent and the one percent in

799
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: terms of income, it's very possible for the ruling elites

800
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: to bring in, absorb some numbers of these identities and

801
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 1: basically pay them off in huge sums. I mean, we're

802
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: talking about lots of money. Jeff Bezos, as you recall,

803
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: he gave Obama one hundred million dollars. He gave Van

804
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: Jones one hundred million dollars. Jack Dorsey gave Ebram x

805
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: Kendy ten million dollars. That's not small change. You know,

806
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: in my day, there used to be a programmer, a

807
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: drama and drama series on TV was called The Millionaire.

808
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: And the conceit of this weekly drama was there's this

809
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 1: very very rich philanthropist as they're called, we called them,

810
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: you know, capitalist pigs, but okay, philanthropists. And each week

811
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: he would give out to some do gooding, nondescript person

812
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: a million dollars. There's this guy, Mark Anthony in the film,

813
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: his name was in the series, and he had this

814
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: white envelope and the last scene in each of the

815
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: weekly dramas of this weekly drama series, he would take

816
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: out the white envelope from the folder and give it

817
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: to this recipient, this very decent recipient. And we watched

818
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: that series in our hearts left a million dollars. A

819
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: million dollars. A million dollars was like going to Pluto

820
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 1: and back. It was an uninconceivable skill, an inconceivable sum. Now,

821
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: I admit for inflation, as I said, I know you've

822
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: got your degree in economics, so I'll admit for inflation,

823
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: but one hundred million dollars is something altogether different, correct,

824
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: But they can hand out that money now because of

825
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: this fantastic polarization of wealth in our society. They can

826
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: hand out one hundred million here, ten million here, and

827
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: then they just bring all these people on board. Does

828
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: it rock the boat? Well, nobody or very few people

829
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: bite the hand that feeds them. Why is Pizos giving

830
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: out that money? You know why? It's called a life

831
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: insurance policy? Because Bezos is smart enough to know at

832
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: some point there's going to be a national option by

833
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: Amazon workers. It may not be this week, it may

834
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: not be next week, it may not be next month,

835
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,439
Speaker 1: but it seems pretty much inevitable. And so I'll ask

836
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 1: you to guests, on which side will Obama be when

837
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: there's a general strike of Amazon workers? On which side?

838
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: On which side will Van Jones be? On which side

839
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: will Abram X can they be? I think that's pretty obvious. Yeah.

840
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: To sum your point up, you need organizational and structural change.

841
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: You don't want to like welcome a diverse flow of

842
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: people into the top one percent. The point is to

843
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: take power away from the top one percent. And when

844
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: you were talking, it reminded me of MSNBC. I remember

845
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: them celebrating the diversification of the military industrial complex, where

846
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 1: they were bragging that like this new CEO of Raythian

847
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,439
Speaker 1: or whatever was a woman, and it was like all

848
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: female leaders for the terry industrial coll and they're celebrating

849
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: that fact is if that's anything to celebrate, It's like,

850
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: we don't care about the faces you put on the

851
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: death machine makers. We just don't want you to use

852
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: the death machines to kill like you many babies. But

853
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: to get back to one of the main points you

854
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: were talking about there, I feel like we're having two

855
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: separate conversations. On the one hand, there's the conversation about

856
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: define woke, what is woke, what's a right wing critique

857
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: of wocism versus a left wing critique of wokeism. And

858
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: then a lot of our conversation thus far has been

859
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: focused on identity politics, which I view as a slightly

860
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: different thing. My definition of wokeism is authoritarianism in service

861
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: of perceived social justice. So, for example, you got some

862
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: conservative speaker going to give you a speech out on

863
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: a college campus, Ben Shapiro, whoever it might be, and

864
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: then you have a bunch of people who protest and say,

865
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: you know, you're not going to give your speech here

866
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: because you're a fascist or whatever. You sort of deplatform somebody.

867
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: When I think of wokeness, that's what I think. I

868
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: think of things along along those lines, authoritarianism in service

869
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: of perceived social justice. But how do we I feel

870
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: like in today's day and age, as you know, and

871
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm a very strong critic of wokeness myself, But at

872
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: the same time I want to sort of balance that

873
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: with the fact that the right does call everything they

874
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: don't like woke and they wage a war against it.

875
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: And then also you do have a massive increase in

876
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: recent years, led by Ron de Santis in Florida and

877
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: in you know, many other red states across the country,

878
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: this massive rise hundreds of like anti trans bills, for example,

879
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: the bird not burning excuse me, the banning of books.

880
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: There's been eight hundred books that have been banned in Texas,

881
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: six hundred books that have been banned in Florida. And

882
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: so what you see there is I would categorize it

883
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: as like a right wing version of wokeness. It's like

884
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: right wing authoritarianism where they're doing authoritarianism in service of

885
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: their perceived social justice needs. Right like, they think it's

886
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: social justice to get rid of the books they don't like.

887
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. So how do we balance

888
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: number one, doing a genuine left wing critique of wokeness

889
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: to say, hey, guys, we should focus on class consciousness

890
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: first and foremost, like do that while also not feed

891
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: into the framework of the right and like accidentally assist

892
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: them in their totally disingenuous crusade against wokeness by which

893
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: they define it as everything they don't like. Well, you

894
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 1: know what, Kyle, that's an excellent question, and I don't

895
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: think there's an easy answer to it. Obviously, morality evolves,

896
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: social morase evolves, and that there's going to inevitably be

897
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: a resistance to what, in retrospect was clearly a necessary

898
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: evolution and transformation in social values and morals in general.

899
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember when, up until nineteen seventy three,

900
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: almost sexuality was defined by the American Psychological as Association

901
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: as a mental disorder. I'm old enough to remember that

902
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: a woman who aspired to a large number of jobs.

903
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: These are all memories which you know, maybe for you

904
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: they sound strange, but they're vivid for me. In the

905
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: employment sections of the newspapers. In the employment sections of

906
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: the newspapers, the headings were women men. There was no

907
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: consciousness of that being odd or aberrant, let alone retrograde.

908
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: There were specific jobs allotted for on the employment page

909
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: to women and to men. And I'm not going to

910
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: bore you by going through the ten thousand ways in

911
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: which our society has evolved, and I think through what

912
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: consensus is, with marginal exceptions, it has evolved for the better.

913
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: So to the extent that what you quote right wing

914
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: wocism or the right wing right wing denunciation of wocism

915
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: is acting as an impediment to the positive transformation of

916
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: our society, I of course agree it has to be

917
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: resisted and foot the problem as I see it is

918
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: twofold number one. A lot of these questions that have

919
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: come up are not clear cut. In my opinion that

920
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: if you examine, for example, if you examine closely as

921
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: I have, and I write about it some length in

922
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: the book, if you examine the abortion question, I do

923
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 1: not believe that the question of abortion is as clear

924
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: cut as liberals woke people the New York Times Matha's

925
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: Vineyar type would make it out to be. And I

926
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: do not believe it's correct to write off anybody who

927
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,959
Speaker 1: might have qualms on that question as being some right

928
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 1: winged yahoo, religious fanatic or bigot. Well, certainly, just to

929
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: cut you off for a sec there, certainly there's some

930
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: gray area, but there are some things that go way

931
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: too far correct, like Mike Pence talking about a national

932
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: abortion ban, you know, or some states they just tried

933
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: to ban the abortion pill, which would even hurt women

934
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: who get miscarriages for example. I agree with you that

935
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: there's some gray area, but some positions are far too

936
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: extreme right, like overturning Roe versus Wad for example. Listen,

937
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: I totally agree, but I wish that your opinion could

938
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: be articulate in the form that acknowledges the gray areas

939
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: and not writing everybody who disagrees with you as being

940
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: some sort of antidiluvian in the So. Yeah, but I

941
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: didn't do I didn't call them Similarly. I think there

942
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: are legitimate questions about the the trans issue I'm gonna

943
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: speak about in very broad terms. Now, let me be clear.

944
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: Let me be clear. I am with Chairman Mau Sudung

945
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: who famously said in his report on the uprising in

946
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: Hunan Province, which I'm shocked that you don't know that

947
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: chairman wrote, no investigation, no right to speak, that is

948
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: to say, to translate into current language, which I hope

949
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: you can err in this program. If you don't know

950
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: what the fuck you're talking about, then shut the fuck up.

951
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: So I admit I'm not knowledgeable because I think it

952
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: requires a deep knowledge of science, biology, and medicine to

953
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: speak on these subjects like the trans phenomenon. But I

954
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: find it deeply troubling when people who have no medical

955
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: knowledge whatsoever, no scientific knowledge whatsoever at most took high

956
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: school biology speak. It's such authority on these subjects, as

957
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: if anybody who disagrees has to be some sort of

958
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: redneck or Yahoo. But those are the people trying to

959
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:12,959
Speaker 1: ban it right. Those are the ones who are making

960
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: claims that they have no idea what they're talking about.

961
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: I think when I hear people speak authoritatively about gender

962
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: fluidity about there aren't two sexes, or to listen to

963
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: Amy Goodman speak about people who get pregnant, or listen

964
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: to AOC say people who menstruweight, well, I think reasonable

965
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: people can say that says a ridiculous statement, as saying

966
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: there hasn't been climate change. It falls into the same

967
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 1: lunatic but who's actually legislating, who's legislating this stuff. You

968
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: have people trying to ban of treatment up till age

969
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: twenty six. That seems like it's an overstep. Some people

970
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: might use some goofy language, but at least they're not

971
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: trying to legislate, you know, trans people out of existence,

972
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: whereas you do see that from the right. I will,

973
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: for the moment, I'm not talking about the legislation, legislative issue,

974
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking that's what matters well, But I'm talking about

975
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: the public conversation, which dismisses. You refer to the authoritarian

976
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: tendency among woke people the real I'm I'm saying the

977
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: liberal left book, okay, not the right wing vote. You

978
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: refer to authoritarian tendencies, and I think one of those

979
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: authoritarian tendencies is to pretenden is if these questions are

980
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: black and white, transparent, if you don't agree with us,

981
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: and you're some sort of yahoo or redneck, I don't

982
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: think that's true. Now, I fell admit because I lived

983
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: through it. I lived through it. I fully admit that

984
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 1: many beliefs which we took for granted when I was

985
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: growing up, of which I illustrate just a couple of

986
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: moments ago, those beliefs were completely overturned. I recognize that.

987
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: Remember in my generation, I mean this literally literally L

988
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: T E R A L Y. Literally, you couldn't imagine

989
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: gay marriage. It was not a concept that could even

990
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: be conceived, let alone legislating. It was a concept that

991
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: was not You couldn't process an idea like that. So

992
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: I recognize that many ideas which are controversial today may

993
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: turn out to be uncontroversial in the future. However, I

994
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: would enter this stipulation since you talked about the issue

995
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: of legislating in the nineteen twenties, a century ago, all

996
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 1: progressives and radicals, among all progressives and radicals really bar none.

997
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: You know, it was all the rage. All the rage

998
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: was eugenics. Eugenics the scientific application to human breeding. And

999
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: listen to this. Do you know who was the only

1000
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: one who opposed this idea of eugenics, the only one?

1001
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 1: It was deeply religious Catholics and Christians who believed that

1002
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: every child was born in God's image and that we

1003
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: should be equally loving and caring of all of God's children.

1004
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:49,919
Speaker 1: So eugenics was the cause of progressives and radicals even

1005
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court. As you might know, the famous

1006
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: case was Buck v. What was the Buck case but v.

1007
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: Company the bookcase where a woman was she heard they

1008
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: said her mother was mentally defective, and they said her

1009
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 1: children were mentally defective. And there was the issue of

1010
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: tying her tubes, not allowing her to have any more

1011
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,959
Speaker 1: children in the name of eugenics. On our Supreme Court,

1012
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: every judge, every judge, justice, every justice except one, every

1013
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: justice voted for uh tying her tubes. The famous verdict

1014
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: delivered by Oliver It was Buck Buckley Bell, Buckley Bell.

1015
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: The famous verdict delivered by Oliver Wendell Holmes, which I

1016
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: suspect you have heard, you're aware of, was three generations

1017
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: of imbeciles are enough. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.

1018
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: That verdict was endorsed by the most liberal member of

1019
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: the court, Lewis Brandeis. Yeah, scientific race was used by

1020
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: the right and the left. It was the common perspective

1021
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: at the time, and it was dead wrong. And by

1022
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 1: the way that eugenics and scientific racism, it wasn't scientific

1023
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: at all, that helped birth the Nazi movement. So I

1024
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 1: take your point, but hold on my point is the

1025
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: right does that cock sureness too on these social issues

1026
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: like trans things or whatever, and they legislate against whole

1027
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: groups of people, whereas on the left, Yeah, they might

1028
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: have some goofy language sometimes, but at least they're saying

1029
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 1: live and let live, and they're not trying to pass

1030
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: legislation banning transphobes, for example, or banning you know, outdated language.

1031
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: I don't see a parody here. I see the right

1032
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: actually cracking down legislatively on whole groups of people, and

1033
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: I see the left sometimes being a little silly, dyeing

1034
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: their hair purple and using some silly language. I can

1035
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 1: quite agree with you, the ar Kyle. Look, well, where

1036
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: am I wrong? Okay, I'm going to get to that,

1037
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say I'm speaking good faith because I

1038
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: could see you quite obviously are speaking in good faith.

1039
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: So I want to have a amicable exchange of opinions

1040
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: and we can also end up agreeing to disagree on

1041
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: college campuses, which have become strong calls of this wocism.

1042
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: There is a lot of taboos now on what you

1043
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: can and can say. There are a lot of taboos

1044
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 1: about uses of pronouns. There are a lot of taboos

1045
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: about what can now that's legislated. Admittedly it's legislate at

1046
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: a college level and not at a federal or state level.

1047
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: But there is a lot of stifling, suffocating speech discourse

1048
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: on college campuses right now. I, for one, I'll be

1049
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: honest with you, I will not call a person. They

1050
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 1: then I will not. I refuse. You want to call

1051
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: you by your name? Fine, but they then that's a

1052
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: bridge too far from me. I'm not going there now.

1053
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure Crystal's thinking, well, you know, no, I mean

1054
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: you're around in another hundred years, which obviously you won't be.

1055
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: Everybody might be referred to as Day. Then yeah, that's

1056
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: a possibility, And I say, I have to be open

1057
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: to that possibility, but I'm not doing it. And there

1058
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: are a lot of things. There is a very serious,

1059
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 1: a very seriously stifling atmosphere on university and college campuses now,

1060
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: and I think it's disingenuous. And I'm not saying you're

1061
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: being disingenuous because you limited yourself to legislation, but I

1062
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: think it is very disingenuous. Allow me, allow me one

1063
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 1: last year, during the Katanji Brown Jackson hearing, at one

1064
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,719
Speaker 1: point Ted Cruz who's a kind of you know, psycho

1065
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: pervert head. Cruise picks up. He starts denouncing Ibrahim X

1066
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,519
Speaker 1: Candy's book Anti Racism, you know how to raise an

1067
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: anti racist baby? And I'll tell you I've gone through

1068
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: Abrahm x Candy in my current book. You'll know I

1069
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 1: devote a hundred pages to his books. They're really comics.

1070
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,719
Speaker 1: But let's go in books. I go through it line

1071
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: by line. I'm with Ted Kruz there, he's a complete idiot,

1072
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: He's an embecile. I don't think that should be taught

1073
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: in college. I don't think that you be taught in

1074
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 1: grade school, high school, college. No, that to me, That

1075
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 1: to me is a complete corruption. It's a corruption of language,

1076
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 1: it's a corruption of thought. And I'm old fashioned enough

1077
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: to believe in brace yourself standards because I respect my students.

1078
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: You know what respect my students means. I want them

1079
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: to be able to compete on the level playing field

1080
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: out in the real world. I want them to have

1081
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: a chance in life. Close this garbage on them. You

1082
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 1: are diminishing their chances to compete out there in the

1083
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 1: real world. So it is it's not my view that

1084
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: I'll just speak for myself, it's not my view that

1085
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: you know, the woke vein on the left liberal side

1086
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: has been inconsequential or you know, irrelevant. I think it's

1087
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,559
Speaker 1: been incredibly I think it has stifled descent. I think

1088
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: everything you're speaking to there is real. But what I

1089
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 1: do get concerned about, especially recently, is that when there's

1090
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: only a discussion of the authoritarian tendencies on the left,

1091
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: it sort of masks some of the even more aggressive

1092
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: legislative authoritarian tactics on the right. And so that was

1093
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 1: the piece that I was interested in teasing out here

1094
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 1: because you know, when you have And the other thing

1095
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: I would say is liberal tendencies dominate university spaces and

1096
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: a lot of news organization. I don't think there's any

1097
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: doubt about that. But I think there are similar codes

1098
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: of conduct and things you're allowed to say or not say,

1099
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: and sort of you know, authoritary crackdowns and speech in

1100
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 1: conservative environments as well in right wing environments where they're

1101
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: you know, for example, you can't acknowledge that Joe Biden

1102
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: won the election of some basic facts of you know,

1103
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 1: things about COVID might be off limits. So I'm not

1104
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 1: sure that that it's a phenomenon that's exclusively on the

1105
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 1: left either. It's just that the liberal liberal control of

1106
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 1: universities is almost universal. Look, I agree with both of you.

1107
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: I don't want there to be any misconstrued at the

1108
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 1: end of this interview that you're not raising real issues

1109
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: and you're not making coaching solid points. I agree with

1110
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 1: the both of you. Let me just then read. Let

1111
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:43,560
Speaker 1: me then just state I wrote the book for the left.

1112
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,600
Speaker 1: I wrote the book because I wanted to make a

1113
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,639
Speaker 1: statement to the new generations about what's you know, which

1114
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: way to go forward? Yeah, and I have enough experience

1115
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: from the nineteen sixties where I did a lot of

1116
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 1: very stupid things. Well, that's actually I want to ask

1117
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: you about that piece. Just want to say, Yeah, I

1118
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 1: didn't write the book about the right, and I don't

1119
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:09,720
Speaker 1: even claim I was making a comprehensive picture. I was

1120
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 1: writing the book as a person of the left. Yeah,

1121
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: who starting concern about certain tendencies which King rolls to

1122
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 1: the surface in a very striking way during the two

1123
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders campaigns, where I saw a lot of hope,

1124
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: a lot of promise, and I saw a lot of sabotage,

1125
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 1: and I saw a lot of sabotage and the book

1126
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 1: is about the sabotage. Well, yeah, the last thing I

1127
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,680
Speaker 1: wanted to get from you, and Kyle can close with

1128
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 1: whatever he wants, is are you actually hopeful? Because you

1129
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,719
Speaker 1: do teach young people and interact with them all the time,

1130
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 1: and you know, wanted to write the book for to

1131
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: sort of lay on some of the pitfalls that you

1132
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:54,759
Speaker 1: see ahead. Are you hopeful that the zoomers may actually

1133
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 1: take up the mandle mantle of class politics because they're

1134
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: economic opportunities been really stifled. You see, you know, you

1135
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: see pronouns, and you see plenty of woke stuff in

1136
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: gen Z as well, but you also see the Starbucks

1137
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: labor movement, and you also see the Amazon labor union,

1138
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: and you see support for candidates like Bernie Sanders. So

1139
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 1: what direction do you see that generation going in right now? Look,

1140
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of grounds for hope. I was in

1141
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and I passed through the Bernie campaign.

1142
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 1: I took the bus rides, as I said, every six months,

1143
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: we went to Washington, joined the war anti war movement. Well,

1144
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: part of joining the Bernie campaign was I went on

1145
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 1: the buses out of state to knock on doors and

1146
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: try to recruit people to vote for Bernie. You know

1147
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 1: what struck me. What struck me was this new generation

1148
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: was much more serious than my own. First of all,

1149
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: on the buses. In my generation, everybody's passing around the

1150
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 1: joints and there was it was a highly sexualized atmosphere

1151
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: on the bus. Not this time. People were so sober.

1152
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:05,639
Speaker 1: You know, those burning recruiters, half of whom were women.

1153
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,360
Speaker 1: Actually probably at sixty percent were women. That's why the

1154
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: comment by Glorious Stein, it was so disgusting. She's a

1155
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 1: sack of shit, she always was. But to say that

1156
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: the women only went to the demonstrations for the boys,

1157
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to be a real you have

1158
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 1: to be you know, in the old world, you have

1159
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: to be a real airhead to make a comment like that,

1160
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: she's an airhead. And so there was a lot of

1161
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: seriousness during the George Floyd demonstrations. I went. I was

1162
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,679
Speaker 1: the only one over thirty, literally literally the only one.

1163
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 1: Why because it was in the middle of COVID, so

1164
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: older people were afraid to go and join the crowds.

1165
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,719
Speaker 1: I didn't give it them. I went. I joined the crowd.

1166
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,600
Speaker 1: I went every day to the point where some of

1167
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: the young people would say, yeah, you don't hear again,

1168
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 1: and I said, I'm here every night. I was usually

1169
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 1: seven o'clock at Barkley Center in Brooklyn. We went in

1170
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: any case. What struck me was the naturalness, the authenticity

1171
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 1: of the relations between the white and black people who

1172
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 1: were between white and black demonstras. In my day, if

1173
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: you were white and you went to a demonstration and

1174
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: sport of the Black Panthers or something like that, it

1175
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: was always tinged with the nobless oblige because we really

1176
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: were privileged, we were white. It was a good era

1177
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 1: to live financially economically, or was the radical chic you know,

1178
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 1: these white young women saying my brothers and sisters. You know,

1179
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 1: it was all just so crap. It was like at

1180
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 1: Robin DeAngelo, you know. But nowadays, because there has been

1181
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: a relative homogenization of the working class, relative homogenization, well,

1182
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 1: whites are doing White young people, if they're coming out

1183
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: of the public university system, they're doing one notch better

1184
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: than blacks economically. They're living together. That was unthinkable my day.

1185
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:46,799
Speaker 1: You know. Nowadays I talk to young people their roommates,

1186
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 1: one roommate, if it's a white person, one roommate is black,

1187
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 1: one roommate to lesbian. One room is this that or

1188
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,120
Speaker 1: the other. You know, they're because housing is you know,

1189
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 1: it's difficult to find housing, so beggars can't be choosers.

1190
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:00,080
Speaker 1: And if you have three people and you need a

1191
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: fourth to make that month's rent, you're gonna take anybody

1192
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 1: who comes along, So they know each other personally, and

1193
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 1: that's real warmth. As I said, one of the wonderful

1194
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: things about teaching now in Cuny. The classes consist of

1195
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: all working class kids and first gener generation immigrant kids

1196
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 1: in the Cuney system. So it is really it's the

1197
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 1: rainbow coalition in that class, you know, and the warmth,

1198
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 1: the solidarity, and it's natural. It's not like I'm putting

1199
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 1: on the show. Look at me, Look how liberal I am,

1200
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: which is my generation. It's authentic, it's real, it's real,

1201
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: it's deeply moving, and you see the progress. You know.

1202
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:36,519
Speaker 1: The progress, of course came at the expense of the

1203
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 1: polarization of wealth in our society and the homogenization of

1204
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: the working class. But it's real. So there's every ground

1205
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 1: to be hopeful. And as I said, I think the

1206
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 1: young people were prepared for real sacrifices. Had Bernie tell

1207
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: them time to get arrested, time to you know, not

1208
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 1: just talk the talk, but walk the walk. I think

1209
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 1: people were ready for it. I saw them board those

1210
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,439
Speaker 1: buses to go out of town, which wasn't easy, you know.

1211
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: And if your young person nowadays, you're so shortened time

1212
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: because you have two jobs and they have to take

1213
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 1: care of your parents, and you know, the whole thing.

1214
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 1: So on that ground, as beyond and joy Gray told me,

1215
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 1: and I kept the line. When I was interviewed by

1216
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 1: her a few weeks ago, she said with a certain

1217
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 1: amount of pride, and the pride was deserved. She said,

1218
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, Bernie won every demographic under thirty, that is

1219
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: to say, male, female, Latino, black, every demographic on the ferry.

1220
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: That's the future. If you want to know what the

1221
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: future is, look at that one stark fact. Bernie Bernie

1222
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:41,560
Speaker 1: the most uncharismatic candidate in history, a septutioninarian Jew from Brooklyn.

1223
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:45,640
Speaker 1: He managed to gavin eyes all these young people on

1224
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: the class struggle platform and wins every demographic. So there's

1225
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:56,839
Speaker 1: every reason to be hopeful and optimistic. But any movement

1226
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 1: needs two things. It needs leadership and the needs organization.

1227
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:06,640
Speaker 1: The Black Lives Matter turned into a disaster, a catastrophe

1228
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 1: a because it couldn't come up with the right slogan

1229
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 1: and to fill the void the most quote unquote radical

1230
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: which means critically irrelevant slogan defund the police. It filled

1231
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 1: the void, which was a disaster. It became clear over

1232
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 1: time what a catastrophe it was. And second of all,

1233
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: the ruling class did what it always does. It bought

1234
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 1: off these leaders like you know, Patrice Coolers and that type,

1235
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 1: gave them lots of money, and of course they helped

1236
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: themselves to a lot of money. And these leaders were

1237
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 1: so crooked, so corrupt, these alleged leaders, these ruling class

1238
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 1: appointed leaders, were so crooked and so corrupt that it

1239
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 1: makes young people who are hopeful, h and willing to

1240
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: put their you know, put themselves on the line, make

1241
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: the sacrifices that a Rosa Luxembourg talked about. It makes

1242
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: them sin about politics, that's true. I think those are

1243
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:04,160
Speaker 1: all right points, all right, nor I had a couple

1244
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: more questions when we've run out of time, norm So

1245
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Tell everybody where

1246
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 1: they can follow you, and tell everybody where they can

1247
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 1: get your book. Uh, you can get my book from

1248
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 1: sublation s U B l A t ioland don't ask

1249
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,879
Speaker 1: me what that means. I don't know separation dot Com

1250
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 1: or from Amazon, and you just google my name. I

1251
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,600
Speaker 1: have a I have a presence, and you'll figure it

1252
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: out if you can. At the end of the show,

1253
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 1: I'll send you a link for the access to book. Otherwise,

1254
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 1: I want to say I totally enjoyed it, and I'm

1255
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 1: glad that both of you, but Kyle in particular, the

1256
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: certain point you know, articulate your real differences with me,

1257
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: and I hope even if I didn't convince you that

1258
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: I convey the fact I recognize those are real problems.

1259
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 1: I recognize you know the issues you raise are real.

1260
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: And I also recognize that a lot of my beliefs

1261
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 1: now may at some point prove to be behind the curve.

1262
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: I recognize that. On the other hand, I think we

1263
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 1: have to have a certain amount of humility, a certain

1264
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:13,600
Speaker 1: amount of recognition that nobody has monopoly untruth, and that

1265
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:16,200
Speaker 1: we shouldn't go around carrying on as if these questions

1266
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 1: have been resolved once and for all. And if you disagree,

1267
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 1: then you're some sort of you know, backward religious fanatic

1268
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 1: or whatever. I don't agree. That's how I was as

1269
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 1: a young man. And I realize it's not that I

1270
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 1: grew up or I grew conservative. I realize I maintain,

1271
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 1: I preserve my radical convictions and presumably will go to

1272
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 1: my grade with them. But I realized I was roomed.

1273
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:44,599
Speaker 1: I made errors, And I know, you know what Muhammad

1274
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 1: Ali said the boxer. He said, if you think the

1275
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:49,839
Speaker 1: same thing as four at forty that you think at twenty,

1276
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:53,120
Speaker 1: then you've wasted twenty years in your life. And there's

1277
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 1: something to be said about that. That life experience should

1278
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: at some point influence you in some ways. Otherwise, what's

1279
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 1: the point of life experience? But I never gave up

1280
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 1: my core beliefs. I remained exactly who I in terms

1281
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 1: of my core beliefs, on the side of the oppressed,

1282
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: on the side of the victims, on the side of

1283
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 1: the heart down and out, on the side of the victims.

1284
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:22,920
Speaker 1: That's why I was at sixteen, and that's why I'll be,

1285
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, til my dying, till my last breath. I

1286
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 1: didn't pay the sacrifices. I didn't make the sacrifices that

1287
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: Rosa did when she got out of jail the last

1288
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: time during World War One. When she was released, she

1289
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 1: was already an older woman. She was forty seven. By

1290
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:39,679
Speaker 1: our standards, that would be like fifty seven or even more.

1291
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:42,200
Speaker 1: She had in the years in jail. She had a

1292
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 1: thick shock of hair. It all turned white. People were

1293
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 1: shocked when they saw her when she emerged from jail.

1294
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 1: She went right from the jail without missing a breath,

1295
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: without the missing a beat. She went right into the revolution.

1296
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 1: There was a worker's uprising. People said, Rose would be

1297
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 1: careful their you down. They're gonna hunt you down. They're

1298
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:04,959
Speaker 1: gonna hunt you down. She said. They said you need bodyguard.

1299
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,840
Speaker 1: She said, I go where I tell other people to go.

1300
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 1: And of course she was hunted down. She was tortured,

1301
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 1: Her skull was smashed. She was then thrown into the RC.

1302
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: Her body was washed up three months ago. Those are

1303
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 1: the inspirations for me, and I didn't pay that kind

1304
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 1: of price. I didn't come close to paying that kind

1305
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 1: of price. But I think I could say, without fear

1306
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:40,719
Speaker 1: of being contradicted or accused of self pity, I did

1307
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:45,599
Speaker 1: pay a price for my beliefs. And I remained true

1308
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: to those beliefs that animated me as a youth. But

1309
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 1: with the caveat, I learned something from life. Didn't turn

1310
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 1: me into a reactionary. But I made errors. I was

1311
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:01,479
Speaker 1: the type. I mean, it's not as if it's some

1312
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:06,879
Speaker 1: foggy memory. I deplatformed any people on the right in college.

1313
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 1: We blocked the doors. We blocked the doors because in

1314
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 1: my day we claim that we knew the science. The

1315
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 1: science was Marxism Leninism, and the science was the truth.

1316
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 1: And anyone who disagreed is, you know, some sort of

1317
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 1: bourgeois or petty bourgeois. I was part of that. I

1318
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 1: wasn't even a small part of that. It's a big

1319
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,400
Speaker 1: part of that. I was a maoist that was wrong.

1320
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 1: I made errors, and a large part of the book

1321
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 1: is trying to make sense of what I did right

1322
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 1: in my life. And also, you know, I have a

1323
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 1: page in the book just has the people who inspired me,

1324
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:50,679
Speaker 1: and like Paul Robeson Rose of Luxembourg, and the number

1325
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:54,280
Speaker 1: of others, and also a page to a picture. These

1326
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: are pictures of Non Chomsky and his wife, who were

1327
01:24:57,080 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: very close to me for about forty years. I would

1328
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:02,679
Speaker 1: say Yeah, it was about no thirty years, thirty five years.

1329
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:06,799
Speaker 1: So a large part of the book is trying to

1330
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 1: convey what was good from my life's involvement in politics,

1331
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:17,200
Speaker 1: and what was problematic and what was dead wrong, and

1332
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 1: to say, try to avoid making the mistakes I make.

1333
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 1: There's certainly a lot that we can get from the book,

1334
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 1: and we are incredibly grateful for your willingness to talk

1335
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,160
Speaker 1: to us and also for the debate. So thank you

1336
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: so much, sir, have a great day. Okay, thank you

1337
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 1: both so much.