WEBVTT - Advocates for Artists 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.640 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.279 You know a I could bring Jerry back. 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.120 I don't think it could. I don't have as much 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:25.319 faith in AI as you do. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:27.320 Let's get to our guest, because we want to talk 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.040 about some of the challenges seeing the music industry due 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.800 to artificial intelligence with us again right here on Bloomberg 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.440 Business Week, Michael Happy. He's president in CEO of Sound Exchange, 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.560 and organization that essentially collects royalties for music creators. Right, 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.319 I'm saying it right, Yeah, back in studio. I'm good 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:42.279 to have you back with us. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.159 I'm pleasure to be here, always happy to come and 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:46.080 chat with you about whatever issues are on your mind. 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.600 Well, there's a lot of issues that my therapist has worked. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:51.960 You don't want to get into her mind exactly. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.080 Having said that, AI talked to us about your members 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:56.920 or the folks that you work with. Are they a 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.840 little nervous about the rise of AI? 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.080 So, look is a very interesting, uh topic in the 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.360 music industr right now. There's there's you know, there's certainly 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.880 concerns about it, but there's a lot of opportunities as well, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.759 you know. On on the one hand, you know, when 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.480 you think about the issues that AI brings, I typically 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.399 put them into three buckets, legal, cultural, and financial. On 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:19.399 the legal front, there's obviously there you know, there are 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.040 a lot of copyright issues about what is AI allowed 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.959 to scrape? Can you go and scrape copyrighted contents? You know, 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.480 for instance, all of those very excellent you know databases 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.440 out there that you guys supply is AI allowed to 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.039 scrape copyrighted things? When AI creates a product, is it copyrighted? 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.840 These are all some questions that are that are being engaged. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.640 Although we think copyright law pretty much protects creators the 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.080 way they need to. But you know what people don't 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.280 talk about as much. And thank you for bringing up 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.200 Drake in the weekend. It isn't just about copyright law. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.800 It is just it's equally about artists rights, creators rights. 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.080 You know what we call name, image and likeness, the 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:55.360 thing that bothers. 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.320 They took their sound, right. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.640 They took their sound. But you know, what you're also 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.360 doing when you imitate an artist with with fully you know, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:04.600 creative age talk and a. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:05.600 Bar singing karaoke. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:11.160 Excuse me, you know you're basically marketing on the you know, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.240 the brand and the image that Drake and the weekend, 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.440 and that's just not right in any in any scenario. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.519 Agreed, Agreed. Right, it's a brand, it's it's a branding. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.440 But it's it's not just about the legal party. You 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.000 know what, what what would I think the music industry 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.080 wants everybody to be aware of, is there's this cultural 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.560 component as well. You know, there's something about human artistry 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.480 that we're actually part of a coalition called the Human 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.880 Artistry Campaign dot com and uh you know it talks 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.440 about as an industry, not just music, but all the 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.919 creative industry. It talks about. Look. AI is a really 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.240 cool tool. We should talk about the benefits that it 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.000 brings to the music industry elsewhere. But let's not forget 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.280 the human element. Let's not forget the value that human 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:49.040 artistry brings. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.760 I think that's irreplaceable. Also, Michael, I mean to be fair, 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.760 uh AI could be really helpful in the studio if 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.760 you're a guitarist like a singer songwriter, and you want 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.720 a certain drum beat, you can probably much more easily 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.919 now get AI to create that for you with whatever 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.480 time signature you want, and you know, whatever drum kit 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.000 you wanted to sound like. But you're not gonna be 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.240 able to write the kind of hit that resonates with people, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:20.240 you know, for generations with a software program right now. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.000 So you are absolutely right on uh, And it reminds 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:24.600 I disagree. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:26.160 I think you could. You're going to be able to 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:27.560 use AI to write songs. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.760 Yes, you can use AI and write songs, but you're 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:31.959 not gonna be able to churn out a Stairway to Heaven. 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:33.720 You know, you're not gonna be able to do a 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.920 Great Eagles Greatest Hits Volume two. You're not going to 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.160 be able to get in a lot of more as set. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.360 You know, something that sells millions of copies and speaks 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.680 to people in their hearts for for twenty thirty forty years. 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.280 A jingle, yes, a commercial, okay, but you're not gonna 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.400 be able to really move people times software program. I've 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.200 got two responds to that. First of all, AI is 0:03:58.240 --> 0:03:59.360 actually not that new. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.240 What's new? It was, you know, completely generative AI. But 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.480 AI has been around in the music industry and elsewhere 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.680 for decades. Brian Eno back in nineteen ninety six, not 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.200 to date myself, you know, talked about he actually put 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.680 out an album and talked about AI music. And it's 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.760 been as you said, drum kits, synthesizers, you know, voice modulation. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:21.640 So it's been around for a long time. What's the 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.360 game changers? Predictive? But to your point about not being 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.719 able to replace it, I'm reminded. I was in an 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.719 industry event just two days ago, uh here in in 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.120 in New York and Joe Walsh speaking of the Eagles. 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.320 Genius Joe Walsh, I saw h giving an award. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.560 And big time love of Stevie NICKX by the way, Yes. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.479 Well who doesn't I know? And he had a great 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.800 quote that stuck with me. He's talked about AI briefly 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:47.320 when he was giving this award, and he said, look, 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.799 you know, we're all being told that the future is AI, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.640 and pretty soon hits are going to be shot from 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.000 these you know, digital canons at the speed of sound, 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.960 and we're all going to become obsolete. Needless to say, 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.400 Joe Walsh. Walsh thought that was a lot of bs, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.080 and he had a quote that I will never forget. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.240 He said, he said all of that. He said, you 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.600 know what, you can't program the gift of a songwriter 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:10.480 or the soul of an artist. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.800 I agree one hundred percent. And that is exactly the 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.880 thing about Midnight in Harlem. I, Carol, you know Susan 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.320 Tadashi and Derek Trucks, they have such a unique sound 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.080 and the way they work as artists and the way 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:27.000 they work together, that just I don't believe that a 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.080 computer program, whether it's generative or not, can replace that. 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:31.920 Now. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.640 I guess what I'm saying is that they could maybe 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.920 create a song. I'm not necessarily saying like that what 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.640 you get in a live element or you know, performers 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.160 singing together, like there's something that's magical. But I do 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.200 think you could use AI easily, machine learning generative AI 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.960 to help fill out a song about lyrics. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.359 Absolutely, And actually, Carol, that's a great point AI. A 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.000 lot of the industry also sees, all of the industry 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.520 sees the upside of AI. Let me tell you some 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:58.039 of the pops. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:05:59.679 I want AI, right, Matt, we want AI? 0:05:59.680 --> 0:05:59.880 You do? 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.919 I want a job there? So many use cases. I 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:04.520 think it would help, but I don't think it's. 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.880 Gonna you know, you know what I want? I want 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:08.599 a I like it. You know, the new Indiana Jones 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:10.800 movie that is coming out. The first segment of that 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:17.040 of that film, they have taken the practically unlimited tapes 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.280 and videos from earlier Indiana Jones and they de aged 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:25.599 him Indiana Jones. Yeah, not Sean Harrison. That's what I want. 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.440 In fact, in fact, if you're putting this on on 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.120 on webcasts, can you do that to me before past production? That? 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:32.920 Because but there's other things a I can do. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.359 John Lennon, you know, AI Paul McCartney talking about it 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.960 and being able to extricate, you know, some of his 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.599 voice from a demo about two years before he died 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:43.400 in nineteen. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.680 Eighty Music Resurrection. They they think, for those of you 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.760 who don't know, I mean, they're pulling out from a 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.680 demo tape. Uh and and they're going to release the 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.960 Beatles last record. They haven't said, no one is. They 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.159 haven't officially said what the title of the of the 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.440 record is, but a lot of them are predicting John, Well, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.640 it's done with John Lennon's permission. It's done with it's done, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.280 you know, with his estate's permission, and. 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:06.640 You got to run. We got to run. Thank you 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.560 so much. Have a great weekend, Come back so much. 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.520 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.920 Live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.000 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.560 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.600 All right, Well, anyway, there's definitely been carnage in a 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.400 crypto space, so let's get to it, and certainly the 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.280 most recent when it comes to the SEC suits against 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.160 both coinbase and Finance. Corey Clipston is CEO at the 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.960 crypto trading app Swan Bitcoin. Back with us on zoom 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.240 in La. Corey, good to check in with you again. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.080 There certainly has been quite the clamp down here in 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.679 the United States. What do you make of the SEC suits? 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.440 Yeah, Hi, Carolyn, Matt, It's great to be back. Yeah. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.160 It is a pretty fascinating time, isn't it. This is 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.280 kind of what a lot of folks in the bitcoin space, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.200 meaning bitcoin, none of the alt coins, have been predicting 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.840 was going to happen, and for many years frankly, going 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.440 back to I think it was February twenty eighteen that 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.040 Ja Clayton started to make it very clear that his position, 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.640 in the SEC's position even that far back, was that 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.480 you know, pretty much everything other than Bitcoin was going 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.480 to be a security, other than maybe some of these 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.840 smaller proof of work coins that don't really have much 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.960 market cap would probably be considered commodities as well. And 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.200 I think we've seen that pretty consistently broadcast from Ginsler's 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.600 SEC over the last couple of years. And you know, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:37.240 you can do all of the legal screening that you 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.439 want with your own internal lawyers if you're a crypto 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.000 casino or a crypto exchange, but at the end of 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.840 the day, that doesn't make law. And so the laws 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.120 on the books basically say these things are securities, and 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.160 they'll probably have to get laws changed by Congress if 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.000 they want to operate these you know, sort of crypto equities. 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.000 And exactly, I mean, fighting the SEC is not usually 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.080 a winning strategy. Maybe it's better to appeal to the 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.000 people and try and get things change at a congressional level. 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.680 Looks like that's what coinbase, for example, is doing. Corey, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:17.199 is it our proof of steak tokens or proof of 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.120 steak blockchains more likely to be securities than proof of 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:22.120 work blockchains. 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.840 Yeah, I think that's pretty much inevitable. 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.600 I think that it's, you know, one of these things 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.160 where they say, like, if it walks like a duck 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:30.800 and talks like a duck, acts like a duck, it's 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.040 probably a duck. And that's interest, right, So I think 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.480 that's we also have not seen any proof of steak 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.559 project remotely approached decentralization. You know, the Ethereum roadmap is 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.520 still completely controlled by Metallic The whole. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.320 Ecosystem is marketed. 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:54.200 By kind of an Ethereum industrial complex of consensus, Ethereum Foundation, 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.760 coin based Circle, and Drayson Horowitz Paradigm, few venture funds, 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.200 so they can say all they want and try to 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:06.480 get Ethereum to be the one centrally controlled crypto that 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.880 gets a pass, and that's I think what their kicksave 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.760 is to try to get through. But it doesn't have 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.800 the benefit of being true, and so we'll see how 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:16.559 that plays out. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.600 What for the I just love it, I mean, uh, 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.000 I mean, I don't have an opinion officially, so I'm 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.600 not saying I totally agree, but if I were, I'm 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:26.560 certainly who had an opinion. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.240 First of all, you always have an opinion. 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.920 I've never I've never found proof of steak to be 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.880 wait to me, it doesn't fulfill the og you know, 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.560 promise of crypto and it certainly doesn't feel decentralized at all. 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.000 For those who aren't cool kids in the room, just 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:44.599 talk a little bit about Corey if you will. A 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.800 proof of steak versus proof of work, because it's it 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.600 has to do without verification of crypto transactions. 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.559 But why work means that you're expending energy to spare 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.480 the network, and proof of steak means that you're just 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.520 trusting humans to kind of coordinate together. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.959 And basically, the rich get richer. And if you have more, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:02.000 if you have. 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.080 More ethereum or more cardano or more solana, then you 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:11.199 get more. And that's basically that fundamentally leads towards centralization. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.239 The second derivative of that is more and more centralization, 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.000 regardless of where your starting point is, and it basically 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.160 just means that humans are still running it, and humans 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.520 change the monetary policy, as we've seen throughout the history 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.000 of ethereum. For instance, the monetary policy is just changeable. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:27.240 At a whim. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.360 According to the directives of Joe Lubin at Consensus and 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.719 Vitallic Beeter and at the Ethereum Foundation. 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:38.559 Tell us about swan and how consumers can use it, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.960 can interact with your company, and then who custodies the bitcoin. 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.800 Yeah, so we are a pretty diversified bitcoin financial services firm. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.240 So at present, we offer brokerage, we offer the swan IRA, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.040 we offer private client services through Swanprivate dot com, and 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.080 then we have a whole wealth division that works with 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.199 financial advisors and ras and helps them get bitcoin into 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:06.400 their client portfolios. Later this year, will be launching Swan Custody. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.360 We purchased a company called Specter last year, which is 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:15.080 one of the top multi sig custodian softwares out there. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:16.960 It's free, open source software and that team has been 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.120 building on top of their protocol to build Swan Custody. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.080 And then we're also launching asset back Loans. Should be 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.840 in market with Asset back Loans this summer, and we 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.800 think with those services you basically fulfill essentially all of 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.120 the needs. Are most of the needs that anyone who 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.280 was into bitcoin and thinking about it for their business 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.920 or for their portfolio or their family would need to 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:39.000 sort of check those. 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.520 Boxes to have a relationship. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.360 And I think the key to our success so far 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.040 has been that we just have a lot of the 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.160 top experts in the world on bitcoin and on financial 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.880 services at the intersection. Like our senior team and all 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.680 of our salespeople come from you know, Goldman, Bridgewater, Morgan Stanley, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.200 Deutsche Bank, these different places, but our longtime bitcoiners as well, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.000 and they kind of speak both languages, and that really 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.560 helps us translate what's going on for people. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.480 Corey, you sound like it's full speed ahead. What was 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.520 the impact though, of those sec suits against coinbas and 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.320 finance what kind of either slow down or just maybe 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.200 pull back a little bit that you see or even 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:17.800 a lot as a result of that. 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.440 Yeah, I mean, I mean for us, this was like 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.360 the ocean's parting in front of us and saying, oh 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.680 my gosh, there's you know, three years of open field 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.760 running at least for bitcoin financial services. And so we 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.480 immediately greenlit tripling the sales team, and I greenlit a 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.520 fifteen X and ad spend last week. So we're going 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.400 really really hard after this. We think this is the 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.160 moment to tell the truth without a lot of distraction 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.600 from the what i'd say the orange washing affinity marketers 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.200 on the crypto side of the fence. 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:48.400 And so I think this is. 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.840 This is salad days for those people that thought bitcoin 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.400 was the thing that really really matters, which you know, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.000 again happens to be true. 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.320 And do you expect all of these other business is 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.400 to be pushed offshore? I mean, in the case of coinbase, 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.839 it looks like Brian Armstrong wants to stand and fight, 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.560 but everyone else seems to be heading for the hills 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.280 in Europe or Asia. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.840 Yeah, I mean, I think the payoff is so massive 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.120 if they're somehow able to get some kind of accommodation 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.600 or you know again you know, try to fight something 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:28.120 through Congress or whatever. Don't think they'll succeed with that again, 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.560 just because when when people that take laws in markets 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.640 very seriously look at it, they'll kind of spot the 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.800 hypocrisy of you know, regulate me specially, but not the 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.600 other guys, not the penny stock operators, not the multi 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.400 level marketers and the Ponzi schemers. They only want sort 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:49.760 of new regulations for their little corner of broad and chicanery, and. 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:50.960 I don't think they'll get away with it. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.600 Yeah, I'm not pro regulation, but I am anti scam 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.120 and I'm definitely anti hypocrisy. So again, if you want 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.680 to open up the floodgates and let all these things through, 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.200 then I think you have to look at basically every 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.920 corner of the market, and you know, you'll probably have 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.440 to see a dramatic reduction in the scope of regulation 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.000 across the board because there's so many people across trad 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.760 Fire that would like a light touch in their little 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.480 area that's their pet project too. 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.640 I do think we have to jump in and point 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:23.760 out that these SEC suits have made allegations correct, and 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.120 those brought by the CFTC as well, but no one 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.280 has been proven guilty yet, so we can't use words 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.320 like fraud or shit canery. Those lead to real problems. 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.120 Yeah, time will tell Ultimately, listen though, really great to 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.120 get your opinion because you are certainly in the think 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.000 of it. Corey Clipston. He's chief executive officer at Swan Bitcoin. 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.320 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.360 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio. 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.840 The Bloomberg Business app and YouTube. You can also listen 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.040 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.240 Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.200 Really cool story on the Bloomberg. We've all been kind 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.320 of yacking about it in the newsroom. The world's two 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.000 richest individuals lunching together today in Paris. We're talking about 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.920 Elon Musk and Bernard Arnault, the CEO controlling shareholder of 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.720 LVMH Moett Moway, Mowett. 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.120 Moway and Hennessy moy Hennessy, I don't know. 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.560 I didn't take French anyway. Louis Vuitton, we know. I 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.520 think he is the world's richest dude right at. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.920 This Bernard Arnau, I think he was jumped by Elon. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.520 So the type r H goo rich go and you'll see. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.040 Elon Musk is currently worth two hundred and twenty nine 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.680 point four billion dollars and Bernard Arnault has a paltry 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.800 one hundred ninety six point eight billion dollars. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.360 They are the world's two richest individuals. Which it started 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.840 off with, okay, are NOO's sons were there? Elon Musk's 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.800 mother may also took part. I gotta say. Elon has 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.040 been everywhere, including meeting with auto execs, bringing them into 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.240 the family via the Tesla charging station. So we knew 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.080 we wanted to talk a little bit about Tesla, which 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:08.720 has been on quite a run as well as the 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.160 share price. Ros Gerber is back with US President CEO 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.840 Gerber Kawasaki Wealth and investment management, owner of Tesla's investor 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.640 in the stock, one time activist buhying for a Tesla board. See, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.200 he is all in when it comes to Tesla. He's 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.480 on the phone from Santa Monica. Ross, how are you. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:24.560 I'm good, good to be back. 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.440 It's kind of interesting. 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.240 It's very interesting. I will also say as a longtime listener, 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.040 So Ross, I'm just filling in for Tim Stenovek. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:35.479 Matt loves listening when you. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.840 I love it when you're on the program. So today 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:39.600 when we were like, we need to talk about Tesla 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.399 because it looks like it's kind of all coming together 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.280 again for Elon Musk, I was like, man, we could 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.359 get Ross Gerber on. That would be awesome. So I'm 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.760 psyched to have you on the program. The Supercharger Network. 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.399 I'm just so jazzed about this because it looks like 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.280 he hit it out of the park, and he did 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.960 something that consortiums of auto makers haven't been able to 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.159 do and governments haven't been able to do. It just 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:04.680 looks like a stroke of genius. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.440 Well, I mean, it's economics that really ultimately won the 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.560 game here, because the economics of using the supercharger versus 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.639 not using the supercharger system was so much better for 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.560 four GM to just jump on this to help them 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.600 sell cars. It really became a win win situation for 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:28.600 both parties. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:29.800 And that was sort of. 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.840 The depth how I say maneuvering that test was done 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.719 over the last several years of building out the supercharger network, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.800 which ironically I had spent a lot of time working 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.879 on in the last six months trying to really value 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.760 this network. And now I'm like, wow, they just killed it, 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.600 Like this is an amazing thing for a tesla. 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.560 I think it's incredible on so many different levels that 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.520 Elon went from I think people scratching their heads worried 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.600 about his involvement in Twitter to you know, he's got 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.800 somebody now who's going to be heading up Twitter. He's 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:05.440 pulled forward and GM right into Twitter spaces to talk 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.280 about their involvements he's given kind of credibility, if you will, 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:14.040 and showing how Twitter spaces can be this incredible communications platform. 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.359 To do something like that, I don't know, when you 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.520 look at the big picture of Elon, like Matt said, 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:22.960 just getting it all together or what. 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.199 Yeah, sort of I think, you know, they're sort of 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.560 like SpaceX and Tesla and Twitter. You can kind of 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.720 say like, well they have like what would they all 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.639 have in common? But then there's these like threads that 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.600 connect everything, and you know, it's really interesting the way 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.639 that things sort of work out. That he's now hired 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.800 sort of the top people from NBC to run Twitter, 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.399 you know, and then he's been able to refocus on Tesla, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.680 which is exactly what I was hoping would happen. And 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.560 the minute he starts refocusing his efforts on Tesla, we've 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.760 just seen a tremendous amount of progress in the business. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.119 So you know, now with all this, you know, deal 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.159