WEBVTT - Beyond Digital Gold: Unveiling Bitcoin's Potential as a Global Payment Network with Eric Yakes 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.720 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Mass Show, 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.960 where we talk about, of course, the decentralized Revolution, talking 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:08.479 about the way the world is changing from a centralized 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:10.320 world to a decentralized world as we look at it 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.600 through the lens of politics, finance, and technology. And you know, 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:15.640 I like to bring to you some education to change 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:17.919 the way you think, some of the latest breaking news 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.560 so you can stay with this revolution step by step, 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.040 and of course some interesting people so you don't have 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:24.800 to just listen to me all the time. And that's 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.520 what I have for you right now. I'm joined in 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.680 the studio today with Eric Yates. He's the author of 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.920 The Seventh Property. You can find him on Twitter at 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:38.880 Eric Yeakes. That's y a key, k Ees and Eric, 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:39.920 thanks for joining me today. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.239 Hey, thanks for having me. Man, Let's get into it. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:43.640 Yeah, let's get into it. 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:45.879 You know, so you wrote this book, the Seventh Property, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.440 talking about Bitcoin, the Monetary Revolution, and I thought it 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:51.960 was I thought it was really good. There's there's some 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.200 really good points that I want to dig into. And 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.720 you know, something that I kind of see you talking 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.480 about here in this Monetary Revolution and the Seventh Property 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.960 of Money and Currency so I want to talk about 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.280 your thesis in the book. But let's set this up 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.120 a little bit. You know, I believe that one of 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.399 the problems that people have, and I'm sure you would agree, 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.399 specifically with money and finance and even more specifically with bitcoin, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.840 is that they don't even understand money. And if you 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.560 don't understand money, then you can't understand these other things. Now, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.960 people think they understand money because we all use money, 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:28.839 we get paid in money, we have in my walllets, whatever, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:29.160 so we. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:30.559 All think we know it, but we don't. 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.360 So I was thinking, maybe you could maybe tell us 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.560 what you think some of these misconceptions are with money, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:42.160 and then what's what the main attributes of money are? 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:44.240 Totally? 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.880 Yeah, you know, when I wrote the book, the first 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.400 chapter was focused on that exact idea. I think when 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.720 I was first going down the rabbit hole of trying 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.160 to understand what is money? There were bits and pieces 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.920 that I collected along the way. You know, I heard it, 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.880 what are the properties of money? What are the functions 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.160 of money? In Safety's book, he talks about money across 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.920 different dimensions, and you know, Carl Menger defines it as 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.280 a good salability and there's all these different frameworks from 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.080 which people piece it together. So when I was writing 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:16.920 the book, I was like, okay, like how does all 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.720 this stuff piece together? And I put together this graphic 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.600 in the book where I basically show, you know, at 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.360 the very top we kind of have like the original definition. 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.000 You know, nineteenth century Carl Menger was defining money as 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.600 the most salable good, the good that can be sold 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.040 at an arm's length that ease more more so than 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.919 anything else. And there are certain goods that ultimately became 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.080 more saleable than other goods. And then that kind of 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.079 boils down into okay, well, how do we think about saleability. Well, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.200 we can think about salability basically across the three dimensions, 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:47.919 which is kind of how safety and defines it in 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.919 the baitcoin standard. You know, we have salability across time. 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.359 We can you know, things that hold value very well 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.960 over time. We have saleability across space, things that we 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.040 can move across space very easily. And then saleability across scales, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.720 things that we can easily group and divide. So it's like, okay, well, 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.840 now that we understand across these three dimensions, then. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.960 And then just to kind of to expand on that saleability, 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:12.960 meaning that people will take it. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:14.639 People will take it. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.519 It replaced the barter system, and if you don't want 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:19.520 my chicken or my goat, then we don't have a deal, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.280 and so we use a medium of exchange instead. It's 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.440 the most saleable good to the point that you made. 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.600 And just for everybody listening, what that means is the 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.080 good that everybody will. 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.560 Accept, exactly right, exactly, yeah, it's the one that everybody's 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:33.560 kind of agreed upon. This is the most common good 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.800 in primitive societies. It was something that was typically very 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.760 often utilized. In a modern economy, it's a little bit different, 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.520 but nonetheless, the three functions of money when we think about, 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.680 you know, money being a store value, or a medium 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.360 of exchange or a unit of account, those kind of 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.040 line up pretty well with salability across the three dimensions, right, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.200 Like a store value function means it's something that's highly 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.920 saleable across time. It's something that holds its value really 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.720 well over time. Medium of exchange function is very similar 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.000 to it's something widely accepted across spaces. And unit of 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.560 account function it's something that we can easily group and 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.840 divide very well, and thus measure money in. So what 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.720 I boiled all that down to is, well, there's these 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.479 properties of money that ultimately say whether something's going to 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.520 be good at those functions. And you know, there's kind 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.159 of like six primary properties of money, and you know, 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.320 the most important, most common being like a very scarce 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:28.400 form of money is something. 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:28.880 That's very good. 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.640 We have things like portability, divisibility, et cetera. And money's 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.680 always been defined throughout history kind of within this groupings. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.000 You can say, there's other ways of looking at it, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.039 but generally speaking, it's kind of like this common framework 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.760 we operate off of. And when I was going into 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.880 the research and I was thinking about bitcoin, and I 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.120 was like, okay, well, all of these properties of money 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.320 that kind of enabled moneies to emerge originally, like gold 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.640 and silver, these are what made people naturally converged upon 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:58.719 those types of money because they had these properties that 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.279 are very scarce. They're poor enough, they were divisible enough. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.440 When we moved into the modern economy and we had 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:10.080 paper money, we sacrificed a lot of the ultimate decentralized 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.320 nature that these originally had. You know, when we had 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.560 coinage systems originally emerging, it was the merchant class that 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:17.800 was doing it. It wasn't governments that was creating that. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.760 And people were finding a lot of primitive forms of 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.159 money themselves and creating it themselves and verifying it amongst themselves. So, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:30.119 you know, in antiquity, money was something that was pretty decentralized, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.880 and this trend throughout history was basically that as money 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.680 became more efficient for transactions, as we moved from a 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.000 you know, gold system to a paper type system that's 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.880 backed by gold, that required more intermediaries to enter into 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.200 the system, and that ultimately made the system more centralized 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.400 to the point where the money didn't serve its fundamental 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.039 properties anymore. Gold no longer was scarce on a gold standard. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.159 Eventually we moved that into fiat money, where the supply 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.760 money isn't scarce at all, and it's quite the opposite. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:02.560 So the the seventh property that I kind of defined 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:07.040 throughout all this is that this trend of centralization. Bitcoin's 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.400 primary innovation is that we're reverting back to that original 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.640 idea of what money was, where people were creating it themselves. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.240 Much like bitcoin can be mined by anybody, people were 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.880 storing it themselves, much like anybody can store bitcoin on themselves, 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.440 and people are verifying it amongst one another themselves, much 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.320 like how you can do that with bitcoin. Bitcoin's kind 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.120 of returned to the anti created form of money, which 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.600 is actually just returning to the optimal form of money, 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.599 which we can now do in this modern technological framework 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.760 with the Internet. So the true innervation of bitcoin was 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.640 that it has not only all the efficiency of our 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.880 current fiat type system with paired with the Internet, it's 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.920 actually much more efficient and it's still decentralized without having 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.159 to sacrifice that as we have throughout history. So that 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.240 was kind of like the primary idea around the thesis. 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.360 So it goes back to the essentialized nature where each 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:56.600 of us can get it. So if you kind of 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.960 go back to some of these previous iterations of money, 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.359 whether it's seashells or rocks or feathers or whatever, it was, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.960 again that was decentralized. So I can go collect the seashells, 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.760 I can go collect the rocks, the feathers, whatever they 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:09.159 may be. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:10.640 I can go collect the gold. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.160 Obviously, it starts getting more centralized when you get to 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.280 the money changers, the goldsmiths who made the coins, things 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.320 like that. But still I get that, and so I 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.640 guess the seventh property isn't so much a different property 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.560 such as portable, portability, divisibility, durability, but rather that it 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:34.600 just goes back to kind of the original decentralized nature 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:34.840 of it. 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:35.480 Yep. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.800 So I define it as in the book immutability, and 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.440 it's defined as a decentralized production, storage, and verification of money. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.440 So immutability is a term that means like resistant to change, 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.720 and that's ultimately what bitcoin is. It has this property 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.160 of immutability which is enabled by the fact that you 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.520 can decentralize in a decentralized manner. You can produce, store, 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:57.280 and verify it. 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:58.560 Yeah. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.280 Yeah, I think if we run through some of those attributes, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:02.960 So some of those properties I think, you know, for 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.720 people to kind of think about. So one of them 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.480 is scarcity, which obviously you talked about and the FIA 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.440 money is the opposite of scarceh right, it's it's endless. 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.360 Jeff Boo says that abundance and money is scarcity and 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.200 everything else, and so that's kind of where we're at. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.560 But most people don't really understand that basic concept. Again, 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:22.120 that this big misconception there. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:27.360 But I think probably all across the board. I mean, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:28.680 bitcoin seems to win. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.480 I mean it's it's more portable, it's more divisible, it's 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.600 more durable. The saleability piece of it might still be 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.920 the one in question, but that's rapidly that's rapidly growing 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:41.800 as well. I mean, you could pretty much use bitcoin 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.000 anywhere in the world at this point. I think it's 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.000 based off of transactions. It's in like a top five 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.040 currency in the world already, something like that. 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:50.800 Totally. 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.679 It's uh, and that's one of the kind of like 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.880 vague a lot of these ideas around money, they are 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.320 vague ideas. So you know, you were to be on 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.320 Twitter debating an economist on the other side of this, 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.079 they would say like, oh, it's not widely accepted enough. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.040 And then the question becomes, well, how do you define 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.800 what widely accepted is as a globally accepted you know, 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.040 bitcoin can be accepted on any continent, it can be 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.160 accepted by anybody with an Internet connection. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:14.440 That's that's pretty widely accepted. 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:16.640 I got an option, I gotta I gotta cut you 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:17.880 off right there. We're going to have to take a 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:19.800 quick break. If you're just tune in you're listening to 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:21.839 the Mark mass Show. I'm sitting down with Eric Yaks, 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.600 the author of the Seventh Property, Bitcoin and Monetary Revolution. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.080 We're back more talking about this money and how it 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:28.520 can change the world. In a second, we'll take a 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.040 quick break. Don't go away, I'll be right back. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.480 All right, Welcome back. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.040 If you just tune in, you're listening to the Mark 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.520 Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Eric Yaks, the author 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.840 of the Seventh Property, Bitcoin and the Monetary Revolution. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:40.360 You know, Eric, I kind of. 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.360 Cut you off there, we were jumping into this commercial break, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.679 but you know, you were talking about bitcoin going back 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.480 to this kind of like decentralized nature, which I love. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:55.040 I also think about it, and you mentioned immutability. Also, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:10:00.199 it's permissionless, and it's also borderless, and so it's sort 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.160 of like this neutral money, right, it's not tied to 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.560 a commodity good and it's not tied to a nation state. 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.240 Is that something big that you see, like the ability 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.839 to store value that's not tied to any specific geography, 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:16.480 any government, anything like that. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.880 Yeah, it's It's one of the biggest aspects of bitcoin 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.120 and one of the primary drivers I think of its 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.360 adoption in the future is going to be associated with 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.800 that idea. I think that over the past you know, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.559 a few years, this bitcoin's gained a lot of prominence. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.720 You know, a lot of narratives brought it into the 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.360 fray and people would say, you know, it's digital gold, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.120 or you know, bitcoin is this inflation hedge, and these 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.440 narratives kind of grew and I, you know, I don't 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.480 think that those are the right frameworks. I think truly 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.600 the idea of really thinking about what bitcoin is is 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.640 pointing to those ideas. If it's this neutral globally political 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.920 monetary system, it's an alternative monetary system that people opting into. 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.000 And we think about out what's happening today in the economy. 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:03.839 You know, we have. 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.760 The most rapid interest rate increase that the FED has made, 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.800 and that's happening while we have more debt in our 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.680 economy that we ever have, when we're hitting you know, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.520 historic levels inflation that we haven't seen in forty years, 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:22.080 and these guys don't know what they're doing. And this 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.800 monetary system of these people who control our money, they're. 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:25.640 Just winging it right now. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.800 And we have an option to opt into this neutral 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.439 system that anybody can be a part of that's global 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.720 and it's borderless, and we're we're getting really close to 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.200 that inflection point where that narrative I think, is going 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.079 to become much more obvious, It's going to become much 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.199 more widespread, and that's when we're really going to start 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.839 to see that inflection point and adoption bigcoin to truly 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:45.239 achieve its value proposition. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.440 I mean, certainly, as we're watching FA currencies die left 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.720 and right all around us, we're seeing countries go into 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:56.240 massive inflation Lebanon, Turkey, you know, Peru, Argentina. 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:57.559 We could saider it rattle them all off. 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.760 But as we're seeing that, then they have a choice. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:01.680 Those people in those countries are like, well, I can't 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:03.679 have this currency anymore, So what do I do? I 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.640 can't really get us dollars, Gold's hard to get. Well, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.760 there's bitcoin, right, And so we're starting to see that 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.199 take place. I'm curious though, to the point that you're 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.400 making about these different narratives from digital goal to whatever, right, 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.280 and the way that I kind of look at it 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.520 is sort of like the problem is with humans is 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.280 that we're not in any good imagining in the future. 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.040 All we can do is imagine better versions of what 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.480 we already know, and then we try to understand things 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.880 based off of some of being relative to something else. So, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.000 if you think about when electricity was first invented, the 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.120 killer application was a light bulb. So what is this electricity. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.840 Thing, Well, it's sort of like a digital candle. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.800 I guess which it was, but it became so much more, right, 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.280 And so we think about what does this internet thing? Well, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.960 I guess it's the way we have these digital message boards. Well, sure, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.800 we didn't know we'd have a cloud or with our 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.120 car being navigated around traffic using social media because we 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.520 didn't have that stuff. Right, So we think about bitcoin, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.840 digital culture, digital gold. It is digital gold to bank 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.960 count in your pocket. Okay, it's that too. Do you 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.079 think that as these narrative change, it will be even 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.080 bigger than that? So if you think, if you think 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:16.760 in broader terms, what is money? Money's communication communicates value? 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.319 So is it a communication network a value exchange network? 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:21.160 What does that even mean? 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:22.679 Yeah? 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:28.960 So here here's how I view this point. I think that, yeah, absolutely, 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:33.560 like bitcoin is this synthetic digital online commodity like gold, 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.720 and that there's certainly true there's so many parallels between that. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.079 But I think that the innovation of bitcoin and what 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.160 its potential could be and why I guess actually I'll 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.040 start with why does this matter? 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:45.360 Right? 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.520 Depending on the level of potential that bitcoin ultimately achieves 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:55.440 will determine the ultimate market price that it finds equilibrim at, 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.240 how much of the market size it'll ultimately saturate at. 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.600 If bitcoin's just becomes digit gold, then it's effectively just 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.640 going to be this reserve asset and we're going to 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.280 be using other assets on top of it that are 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.920 dependent upon it for trade in some form, which means 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:12.920 a supply that's probably going to expand a lot, and 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.679 there's going to be some sort of like fractional reserve 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.040 type nature to it. If that does happen, bitcoin probably 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.160 won't achieve its full market potential, Whereas if we don't 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.000 have a system like that and bitcoin becomes this global 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.960 payment network of money. At the other extreme, the market 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.120 size of bitcoin is in the hundreds of trillions, as 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.360 opposed to a few tens of trillions. 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:31.880 Like it would be for gold. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.560 So bitcoin's potential in the span at which it can 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.800 expand throughout the world is massively determined by this question 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.080 of what technology is going to be built on top 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.680 of bitcoin and ultimately how is that going to be 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.800 propagating Bitcoin throughout the Internet for various functions beyond just 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.320 being a store of value. So when I view it 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.560 long term, I view bitcoin as it's going to be 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.480 the base layer, substrate of a new financial system that's 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.400 going to be neutral. It's going to be global, and 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.040 it's not going to be run by any sort of 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.560 political initiative. And as long as this system is kept 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:11.320 very informationally transparent and there aren't any points of centralized 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.840 attack over it, and it's a highly competitive type system, 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.640 then I think we're going to see bitcoin not just 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.360 become a store of value. We're going to also see 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.520 it become a medium exchange and unit of account for 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.920 the global capital markets. And at which point the value 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.360 bitcoins and the hundreds of trillions, and that's going to 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.000 be the full potential that is really going to allow 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.560 society to achieve an independent monetary network, Because if it's 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.640 just digital gold and we still stay on some central 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.240 bank type system, but bitcoin expands so much that you know, 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.440 say central banks are forced to start adopting it as 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.200 a reserve asset. Fine, that's a great thing for bitcoin. 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.920 That's not going to fundamentally change freedom throughout the world 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.560 and the property rights that the individual has. So this 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.640 a political neutral system and it expanding across all these 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.200 chasms with a you know, strong, competitive, informationally transparent financial system. 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.720 That's you know, what I'm a part of this industry for, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:01.680 and that's what I expected to ultimately achieve. 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:04.440 I guess, yes. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.080 So I see all that, and I want to talk 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.240 about that, what that potential monetary system looks like. And 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:10.880 I know I've heard you on some other interviews talking 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.880 about you know, and you kind of hinted on that, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.000 like if we have other assets on top of it, 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.840 and does it expand in fractional reserve So I. 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:17.440 Want to get into that. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.480 But just jumping back into this question for a second. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.920 If you think about bitcoin as a open borderless, permissionless, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.640 CENSORSIP resistant, immutable network, well what else couldn't that network 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.960 be used for other than money? So sure, everything has 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.880 a first killer application. The Internet was email, electricity was 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:43.360 a light bulb. So for example, we now have ordinals, okay, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.160 and that's like NFTs okay, whatever, that's stupid people argue 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.760 against it whatever, But what if we were able to 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.080 put or not. What if we are able to put 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.160 books or three D printed guns or other things that 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.760 the government want to censor, and now anybody in the 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.840 world open borderless mission listenship could access that data. Right, 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.080 that's like one example. It's hard for us to imagine 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:06.400 where these things can go because we don't have those 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.679 building blocks. It'd be like when steel was invented, you know, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.720 two hundred years ago, going, oh, one day we'll have 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.160 spaceships like we didn't know that. Or I know you've 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.639 been talking about like fetimint right, and so Fetiman's a 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.439 way to pool money, but you can also do like 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.280 private messaging in that pool. So now it's like a 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.280 communication protocol. We've seen Jack Dorsey with his Web five 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.959 where they're taking these decentralized IDs, these d IDs and 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:36.879 they're hashing it in the Bitcoin blockchain because it's a decentralized, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.320 you know, censorship resistant platform. So like, these are those 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.080 three examples of use cases of this open borderless permission 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.399 that sensor persistant network that aren't really money uses m. 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.200 Yeah, I agree, it's it's actually Eric. 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.119 Sorry, before you before you answer that I want to 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:55.720 hear what you have to say. I know you're interested 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:57.320 in the venture capital side of it, so that's why 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:58.760 I'm trying to ask you these questions. But I got 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.679 to take a quick break. So if you're just tuning in, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.880 you're listening to the Mark Maas Show. Of course we're 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.840 talking about the decentralized Revolution. I'm talking with Eric Yates, 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.760 the author of the Seventh Property. 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:08.679 Bitcoin, the Monitary Revolution. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.320 I'm gonna take a quick break, but you don't want 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.359 to miss what's next, so don't go away, all right, 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.360 Welcome back. If you're just tune in, you are listening 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.679 to the Mark Maas Show, sitting down with Eric Yikes, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.160 the author of the Seventh Property, Bitcoin and the Monetary Revolution. 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.000 And before the break, I kind of had to cut 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.280 you off before your answer, so hopefully we left everybody. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:25.760 On that cliffhanger. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.439 But I was given examples of potentially other use cases 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.040 of this network other than monetary uses, and so I 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:34.280 was just curious on your thought of that. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.720 Yeah, and the way that I think about this question 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:42.240 is exactly what you said. This is a global data 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.000 store and the most secure network in the world. It's 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.240 the true source of information that we can depend on 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.200 because we know that we can't attack this network, could 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.480 know that this ledger of information cannot be changed. Now 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:55.879 we know that whatever information we decide to record on 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.680 that is information that can't be changed. And that's a 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.520 very valuable proposition that you know, I'm not smart enough 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.480 to understand every implication that could possibly emerge from that, 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.760 but you know, and I think, like going back to 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.720