Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. I started with
Speaker 1: one cold case in particular and spent twenty years doing it.
Speaker 1: And I had heard about this story throughout my career,
Speaker 1: and finally I was just like, Okay, tell me about this.
Speaker 1: I want to know about this. And I didn't have
Speaker 1: a body, didn't have evidence, I didn't have nothing. I
Speaker 1: had a story. Cold cases, an inherent part of Paper Ghosts,
Speaker 1: have taught me a lot about the men and women
Speaker 1: who dedicate their lives to solving these long forgotten stories
Speaker 1: of the missing and murdered. My name is m William Phelps.
Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist and author of more than forty
Speaker 1: true crime books. This is the second of two bonus
Speaker 1: episodes of Paper Ghosts Season three, in plain Sight. During
Speaker 1: the Illinois State Police's initial investigation into Tammy Ziwiki's murder,
Speaker 1: and in the decades that followed, law enforcement looked at
Speaker 1: a number of known or suspected serial killers. It was
Speaker 1: William James Banister, a truck driver from Colorado, who was
Speaker 1: arrested in July nineteen ninety three for the attempted murder
Speaker 1: of a fourteen year old girl. Police searched his truck
Speaker 1: and found bloody clothes they thought could have belonged to Tammy,
Speaker 1: but ruled him out as a suspect in her case.
Speaker 1: There was Bruce Mendenhall, known as the truck Stop Killer,
Speaker 1: a long haul trucker from southern Illinois. He was arrested
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven after decades on the road,
Speaker 1: and ultimately confessed to six murders. Investigators believe his body
Speaker 1: count is likely much higher, but we're also unable to
Speaker 1: connect him to Tammy's murder. If you've listened to this season,
Speaker 1: you've heard me talk about Banister Mendenhall and other truck
Speaker 1: driving serial killers who initially look good for Tammy's murder.
Speaker 1: But there's one serial killer I haven't spoken much about
Speaker 1: yet who was also looked at as a potential suspect
Speaker 1: in Tammy's case. A guy who could be responsible for
Speaker 1: kidnapping and murdering more than fifty women between nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: seven and nineteen ninety four, a guy that confounded police
Speaker 1: for years. Larry Dwayne Paul. I'm going to say that
Speaker 1: this man is fascinating, but not for any of the
Speaker 1: reasons that you might think. He's not colorful he's not intriguing.
Speaker 1: He's interesting because he's none of that. He's very plain,
Speaker 1: very soft spoken, very uninteresting on the surface. Lorie Howard
Speaker 1: is a former deputy sheriff with the McDonald County Sheriff's
Speaker 1: Department in southwest Missouri. Many of the locations she worked
Speaker 1: in were less than an hour's drive from Sarcoxi, Missouri,
Speaker 1: where Tammy's body was discovered. Laurie spent much of her
Speaker 1: career looking into cold cases in the region, specifically young
Speaker 1: women who went missing or were killed in the late
Speaker 1: eighties in early nineties. I was then trying to develop
Speaker 1: kind of geographically a timeline and chronologically, why do I
Speaker 1: have all of these girls? And who came first? And
Speaker 1: how were they killed? And where are they degree geographically
Speaker 1: on my timeline? What interstate runs through there? All of
Speaker 1: these questions that you ask yourself. And I had five
Speaker 1: or six of them, all within maybe a hundred miles
Speaker 1: of me. This is how I became involved with Miss
Speaker 1: Tammy's a Wiki, because Tammy's a Wiki is not in
Speaker 1: my jurisdiction. Laurie was trying to identify a victim she
Speaker 1: named Grace Dough whose remains were found in rural McDonald County.
Speaker 1: Back in December nineteen ninety, Larry Hall's name came up
Speaker 1: as a possible suspect, not just for Grace, but for
Speaker 1: a number of young women who had gone missing in
Speaker 1: the area over a period of years near this time,
Speaker 1: including Tammy's. A wiki. I had a friend working on
Speaker 1: the Springfiel three and you know that's up the road
Speaker 1: from me as well, and she said, I think this
Speaker 1: guy bears looking at And so when I started looking
Speaker 1: at him for Grace, I obviously started looking at Tammy.
Speaker 1: But I did look at Tammy very thoroughly because wanted
Speaker 1: to know. Okay, if I can figure out everything there
Speaker 1: is to know about Tammy, I can then recreate what happened,
Speaker 1: hopefully to Grace, and it's going to tell me who
Speaker 1: she is. By the mid nineteen nineties, Larry Hall had
Speaker 1: been on law enforcement's radar for years and was a
Speaker 1: suspect in a number of missing person cases, most of
Speaker 1: whom were young women and girls. In nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 1: Hall admitted to killing nineteen year old Tricia Rutler, a
Speaker 1: college student who vanished a half mile from Indiana Wesleyan
Speaker 1: University's campus the year before. Tricia's body was never found,
Speaker 1: but police identified Hall as a potential suspect when they
Speaker 1: were investigating the kidnapping and murder of another teenage girl,
Speaker 1: fifteen year old Jessica Roach, also abducted in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: While searching Hall's home and vehicle, police found a number
Speaker 1: of suspicious items connecting him to both victims, including knives, rope,
Speaker 1: a mask, along with a collection of newspaper articles and
Speaker 1: notes about their disappearances. Hall would go on to recant
Speaker 1: his confession, something he did quite often. Local police suspected
Speaker 1: that he was a chronic confessor, a wannabe looking to
Speaker 1: take credit for crimes he saw in the news but
Speaker 1: didn't commit. Other agencies, including the FBI, were not convinced.
Speaker 1: If you're a fan of true crime television, you've likely
Speaker 1: seen part of Hall's story play out in the Apple
Speaker 1: TV Plus limited series Blackbird. The show dramatizes an FBI
Speaker 1: informants attempt to befriend Hall and get him to reveal
Speaker 1: the locations of his suspected victims bodies. Ultimately, the informant
Speaker 1: had some success and was able to help investigators prove
Speaker 1: Hall's involvement in both Tricia Rutler and Jessica Roach's murders.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, Paul was sentenced to life in
Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. Since then, he has
Speaker 1: continued to confess to dozens of homicides, all of which
Speaker 1: he later recanted. Still, law enforcement working a number of
Speaker 1: those cases believe Paul is their guy, and that he
Speaker 1: may in fact be one of the nation's most prolific
Speaker 1: serial killers. It's part of the reason Lorie Howard decided
Speaker 1: she needed to speak to Hall herself. I had talked
Speaker 1: with Larry at length about all of the horrific scenes
Speaker 1: that he did to young women. They were graphic in depth.
Speaker 1: He never missed a beat. He never actually had a
Speaker 1: lot of inflection in his voice. His affect was very
Speaker 1: calm telling me about these gruesome things. But while we
Speaker 1: are talking, they brought him lunch, and he begins to
Speaker 1: eat and then stops almost in mid fork and apologizes
Speaker 1: to me for eating in front of me. I was
Speaker 1: taken aback because I just thought, that's what he is
Speaker 1: sorry for. According to a psychological profile done by the
Speaker 1: Department of Psychology at Radford University, Larry Hall was antisocial,
Speaker 1: had a low IQ and was often teased by the
Speaker 1: other kids for his speech impediment. He was raised in
Speaker 1: a home located on a cemetery in Wabash, Indiana, and
Speaker 1: he and his twin brother, Gary Hall, were often ordered
Speaker 1: to help their father, the church sexton Barry, bodies and
Speaker 1: tend to the graves. Larry's brother Gary has described him
Speaker 1: as very awkward, quiet and backward, someone who had a
Speaker 1: hard time fitting in and also had violent tendencies. I've
Speaker 1: studied Hall myself and had brief contact with him. My
Speaker 1: opinion about Larry Hall is that he's a vicious psychopath
Speaker 1: who knows exactly what he has done and takes enormous
Speaker 1: pleasure in playing cat and mouse with law enforcement. Laurie
Speaker 1: Howard agrees, I do think he is simple minded, but
Speaker 1: only on a social level. I do not think he's
Speaker 1: simple minded when it comes to forensics. I think he's
Speaker 1: extremely meticulous, and I do think he's capable and has
Speaker 1: hurt many women. And for all of the serial confessor
Speaker 1: that he's been labeled, there's truth in there. After graduating
Speaker 1: high school, Hall found work as a janitor and developed
Speaker 1: an interest in the American Revolution and Civil War, so
Speaker 1: much so that he began traveling the country to attend
Speaker 1: and take part in battle re enactments. Authorities suspect committed
Speaker 1: many of his murders close to the historical sites he visited. Today,
Speaker 1: he's at a medium security facility in Butner, North Carolina,
Speaker 1: which is where Laurie Howard went to meet him. She
Speaker 1: asked Hal about the girls on her list, starting with
Speaker 1: her unidentified Grace Dough. I spoke very briefly about a
Speaker 1: series of girls. Once he shoots me down and says,
Speaker 1: you know I'm not responsible for Grays. Then I want
Speaker 1: to know. Okay, well, tell me more about who you
Speaker 1: are responsible for, because I've got a list here, let's talk.
Speaker 1: Utilizing her vast experience and interrogation techniques, Laurie had a
Speaker 1: map brought in. Then she began listing off names of
Speaker 1: victims and locations, carefully studying Hall's reaction to each one.
Speaker 1: I want to know about Dana Stidham and he says no,
Speaker 1: And I said, okay, I need to know talk to
Speaker 1: me about Trisha Ruler. He absolutely would not talk about
Speaker 1: Trisha Ruler, but he did not deny Trisha Ruitler either,
Speaker 1: And then Hall forever one to try and change the narrative,
Speaker 1: did something unexpected and yet also completely in line with
Speaker 1: the psychopath that he is. I was just about to
Speaker 1: finish and hadn't yet finished the girls on my list
Speaker 1: when he said, let the Springfill three. We did kill them.
Speaker 1: And so then we started talking about the Springfill three.
Speaker 1: I said, I want to know where are they? Larry,
Speaker 1: and he said, okay, we're leaning. The two of us
Speaker 1: are leaning over a map together on the table, he
Speaker 1: and I and he said they're buried in the March
Speaker 1: Train Forest. And I said, no, that's not gonna fly.
Speaker 1: The march Tinging Forest is huge. You can't throw out
Speaker 1: They're buried in the Marching Forest. And so he then
Speaker 1: begins to kind of narrow that down for me based
Speaker 1: on the map and what he can remember. The only
Speaker 1: way to know if Paul was telling the truth was
Speaker 1: to search the area he indicated in the Mark Twain
Speaker 1: Force and locate those bodies. The problem became, however, that
Speaker 1: the Springfield three case fell outside Laurie Howard's jurisdiction. So
Speaker 1: she called the Springfield Police Department and shared what Larry
Speaker 1: Hall had told her, or at least she tried to. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: to some degree, in law enforcement, there are egos, and
Speaker 1: I think that they did not really want to readily
Speaker 1: accept the idea that I might have information that they
Speaker 1: had not either previously looked at and disregarded, or they
Speaker 1: already had kind of pigeonholed a suspect for that case
Speaker 1: and didn't really want to go outside of that, And
Speaker 1: so I they had eliminated him in their own mind.
Speaker 1: During her conversation with Larry Hall, Laurie Howard brought up
Speaker 1: Tammy Zuwiki. On paper, Haul was the perfect candidate to
Speaker 1: have abducted the twenty one year old college student. Investigators
Speaker 1: were never able to corroborate his claim, but in two ten,
Speaker 1: Paul confessed to the abduction of twenty year old Laurie Deppis,
Speaker 1: went missing just four days prior and a few hundred
Speaker 1: miles away from where Tammy Ziwiki was last seen alive
Speaker 1: in Illinois. Paul denied any involvement with Tammy's murder. And
Speaker 1: as difficult as it is to believe anything the man says,
Speaker 1: Laurie Howard thinks he's telling the truth when it comes
Speaker 1: to Tammy's case. Regarding Tammy, not only does he not
Speaker 1: take credit for Tammy there's some things with Tammy that
Speaker 1: are for me stand out geneographically. Jimmy was in the
Speaker 1: right place at the right time for him. He was
Speaker 1: three hours and forty five minutes away. The time frame
Speaker 1: works for me. What doesn't work for me now is
Speaker 1: she was wrapped in a blanket. She was also wrapped
Speaker 1: in a sheet, and she was duct taped. Those things
Speaker 1: do not do not fit with Larry Hall. He would
Speaker 1: never do that. He would dispose of them, potentially with rope,
Speaker 1: but he would never, you know, wrap a red blanket
Speaker 1: or a form fitted sheet that came from him from
Speaker 1: his van and leave that, especially with duct tape. He
Speaker 1: just he's never been known to use duct tape. Like myself,
Speaker 1: Laurie doesn't believe the circumstances of Tammy's murder fit. Larry
Speaker 1: Hall's a mall. It's just not how the guy operated.
Speaker 1: If he'd abducted Tammy, there's a good chance no one
Speaker 1: would have found her body. Because if there was one
Speaker 1: thing Larry Hall was good at, it was hiding his
Speaker 1: victims well enough for them never to be found. Larry's way,
Speaker 1: preferred way of killing would be what he really wants
Speaker 1: to pretend, at least in that first few initial seconds
Speaker 1: that this is going to be a reciprocal relationship, that
Speaker 1: he's going to ask this young lady out or this
Speaker 1: young girl out, and they're going to one want to
Speaker 1: get in with him, or two want to be in
Speaker 1: his presence. So he will go and ask them out,
Speaker 1: or he will ask them if they want to ride,
Speaker 1: and then is astonished when they fight him, and then
Speaker 1: becomes incensed to the point that you know that he
Speaker 1: ends up killing them rather graphically and brutally. Falling in
Speaker 1: line with many of the people I've spoken to, Laurie
Speaker 1: believes Tammy was likely murdered by a trucker. As for
Speaker 1: Grace Doe's identity, Laurie finally got her breakthrough thanks to
Speaker 1: advancements and DNA and forensics technology. I did not know
Speaker 1: this until much later on. That was the first time
Speaker 1: that that had ever been done in the United States
Speaker 1: to reconstruct with just images. I think it was like
Speaker 1: one millimeter images of MRI. So my email pops up
Speaker 1: and it says, Laurie, meet Grace, and that was the
Speaker 1: first time I'd ever had a picture of her. And
Speaker 1: so then you know, fast forward years later and DNA
Speaker 1: evolves and develops, and here we are. We now know
Speaker 1: who her family is, and so Grace is now Shanna Garber.
Speaker 1: Laurie Howard spent nearly twenty years searching for the identity
Speaker 1: of Shanna Garber, never giving up on every last lead
Speaker 1: and potential piece of evidence. Breakthroughs like that are rare,
Speaker 1: but it's a reminder that hopefully dies if we allow it,
Speaker 1: especially for families of these victims and their chance for
Speaker 1: justice and a semblance of peace. And that hope is
Speaker 1: what drives Lorie Howard. I want to tell you the
Speaker 1: reason I do what I do. I got a phone
Speaker 1: call from Shauna's brother and he said, we really want
Speaker 1: you to come to Shauna's funeral for her burial, and
Speaker 1: I was moved that they would even ask me, and
Speaker 1: I said, I want to be there. I want to
Speaker 1: be there, but I can't be and it really upset me.
Speaker 1: And so then he calls me back the day of
Speaker 1: the funeral and he says, I think it's important that
Speaker 1: you know. Shan's headstone reads SHAWNA graf Harbor. He said,
Speaker 1: because she was Grace as long as she was on
Speaker 1: her it wants something to me. It that's a lot
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, that's just one of one of
Speaker 1: a thousand stories. Of course, if you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about Larry Hall and his crimes and even hear
Speaker 1: from Hall himself, listen to episodes thirty two and thirty
Speaker 1: three titled The Man in the Van of my other podcasts,
Speaker 1: crossing the Line with Them William Phelps wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts, I take a look at Hall's crimes and
Speaker 1: focus on two of his victims stories, and you might
Speaker 1: even hear Hall confess to yet another murder. Paper Ghosts
Speaker 1: is written and executive produce by me and William Phelps
Speaker 1: and iHeart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by our
Speaker 1: supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate producer is Darby Masters,
Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu Zafar.
Speaker 1: Our series theme number four four two is written and
Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.