1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio. I started with 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: one cold case in particular and spent twenty years doing it. 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: And I had heard about this story throughout my career, 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: and finally I was just like, Okay, tell me about this. 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: I want to know about this. And I didn't have 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: a body, didn't have evidence, I didn't have nothing. I 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: had a story. Cold cases, an inherent part of Paper Ghosts, 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: have taught me a lot about the men and women 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: who dedicate their lives to solving these long forgotten stories 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: of the missing and murdered. My name is m William Phelps. 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist and author of more than forty 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: true crime books. This is the second of two bonus 13 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: episodes of Paper Ghosts Season three, in plain Sight. During 14 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: the Illinois State Police's initial investigation into Tammy Ziwiki's murder, 15 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: and in the decades that followed, law enforcement looked at 16 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: a number of known or suspected serial killers. It was 17 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: William James Banister, a truck driver from Colorado, who was 18 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: arrested in July nineteen ninety three for the attempted murder 19 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: of a fourteen year old girl. Police searched his truck 20 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: and found bloody clothes they thought could have belonged to Tammy, 21 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: but ruled him out as a suspect in her case. 22 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: There was Bruce Mendenhall, known as the truck Stop Killer, 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: a long haul trucker from southern Illinois. He was arrested 24 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven after decades on the road, 25 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: and ultimately confessed to six murders. Investigators believe his body 26 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: count is likely much higher, but we're also unable to 27 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: connect him to Tammy's murder. If you've listened to this season, 28 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: you've heard me talk about Banister Mendenhall and other truck 29 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: driving serial killers who initially look good for Tammy's murder. 30 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: But there's one serial killer I haven't spoken much about 31 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: yet who was also looked at as a potential suspect 32 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: in Tammy's case. A guy who could be responsible for 33 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: kidnapping and murdering more than fifty women between nineteen eighty 34 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: seven and nineteen ninety four, a guy that confounded police 35 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: for years. Larry Dwayne Paul. I'm going to say that 36 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: this man is fascinating, but not for any of the 37 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: reasons that you might think. He's not colorful he's not intriguing. 38 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: He's interesting because he's none of that. He's very plain, 39 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: very soft spoken, very uninteresting on the surface. Lorie Howard 40 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: is a former deputy sheriff with the McDonald County Sheriff's 41 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Department in southwest Missouri. Many of the locations she worked 42 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: in were less than an hour's drive from Sarcoxi, Missouri, 43 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: where Tammy's body was discovered. Laurie spent much of her 44 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: career looking into cold cases in the region, specifically young 45 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: women who went missing or were killed in the late 46 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: eighties in early nineties. I was then trying to develop 47 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: kind of geographically a timeline and chronologically, why do I 48 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: have all of these girls? And who came first? And 49 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: how were they killed? And where are they degree geographically 50 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: on my timeline? What interstate runs through there? All of 51 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: these questions that you ask yourself. And I had five 52 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: or six of them, all within maybe a hundred miles 53 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: of me. This is how I became involved with Miss 54 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: Tammy's a Wiki, because Tammy's a Wiki is not in 55 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: my jurisdiction. Laurie was trying to identify a victim she 56 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: named Grace Dough whose remains were found in rural McDonald County. 57 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: Back in December nineteen ninety, Larry Hall's name came up 58 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: as a possible suspect, not just for Grace, but for 59 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: a number of young women who had gone missing in 60 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: the area over a period of years near this time, 61 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: including Tammy's. A wiki. I had a friend working on 62 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: the Springfiel three and you know that's up the road 63 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: from me as well, and she said, I think this 64 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: guy bears looking at And so when I started looking 65 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: at him for Grace, I obviously started looking at Tammy. 66 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: But I did look at Tammy very thoroughly because wanted 67 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: to know. Okay, if I can figure out everything there 68 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: is to know about Tammy, I can then recreate what happened, 69 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: hopefully to Grace, and it's going to tell me who 70 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: she is. By the mid nineteen nineties, Larry Hall had 71 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: been on law enforcement's radar for years and was a 72 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: suspect in a number of missing person cases, most of 73 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: whom were young women and girls. In nineteen ninety four, 74 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: Hall admitted to killing nineteen year old Tricia Rutler, a 75 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: college student who vanished a half mile from Indiana Wesleyan 76 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: University's campus the year before. Tricia's body was never found, 77 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: but police identified Hall as a potential suspect when they 78 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: were investigating the kidnapping and murder of another teenage girl, 79 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: fifteen year old Jessica Roach, also abducted in nineteen ninety three. 80 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: While searching Hall's home and vehicle, police found a number 81 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: of suspicious items connecting him to both victims, including knives, rope, 82 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: a mask, along with a collection of newspaper articles and 83 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: notes about their disappearances. Hall would go on to recant 84 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: his confession, something he did quite often. Local police suspected 85 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: that he was a chronic confessor, a wannabe looking to 86 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: take credit for crimes he saw in the news but 87 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: didn't commit. Other agencies, including the FBI, were not convinced. 88 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: If you're a fan of true crime television, you've likely 89 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: seen part of Hall's story play out in the Apple 90 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: TV Plus limited series Blackbird. The show dramatizes an FBI 91 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: informants attempt to befriend Hall and get him to reveal 92 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: the locations of his suspected victims bodies. Ultimately, the informant 93 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: had some success and was able to help investigators prove 94 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: Hall's involvement in both Tricia Rutler and Jessica Roach's murders. 95 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, Paul was sentenced to life in 96 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. Since then, he has 97 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: continued to confess to dozens of homicides, all of which 98 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: he later recanted. Still, law enforcement working a number of 99 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: those cases believe Paul is their guy, and that he 100 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: may in fact be one of the nation's most prolific 101 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: serial killers. It's part of the reason Lorie Howard decided 102 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: she needed to speak to Hall herself. I had talked 103 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: with Larry at length about all of the horrific scenes 104 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: that he did to young women. They were graphic in depth. 105 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: He never missed a beat. He never actually had a 106 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: lot of inflection in his voice. His affect was very 107 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: calm telling me about these gruesome things. But while we 108 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: are talking, they brought him lunch, and he begins to 109 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: eat and then stops almost in mid fork and apologizes 110 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: to me for eating in front of me. I was 111 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: taken aback because I just thought, that's what he is 112 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: sorry for. According to a psychological profile done by the 113 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: Department of Psychology at Radford University, Larry Hall was antisocial, 114 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: had a low IQ and was often teased by the 115 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: other kids for his speech impediment. He was raised in 116 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: a home located on a cemetery in Wabash, Indiana, and 117 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: he and his twin brother, Gary Hall, were often ordered 118 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,599 Speaker 1: to help their father, the church sexton Barry, bodies and 119 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: tend to the graves. Larry's brother Gary has described him 120 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: as very awkward, quiet and backward, someone who had a 121 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: hard time fitting in and also had violent tendencies. I've 122 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: studied Hall myself and had brief contact with him. My 123 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: opinion about Larry Hall is that he's a vicious psychopath 124 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: who knows exactly what he has done and takes enormous 125 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: pleasure in playing cat and mouse with law enforcement. Laurie 126 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Howard agrees, I do think he is simple minded, but 127 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: only on a social level. I do not think he's 128 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: simple minded when it comes to forensics. I think he's 129 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: extremely meticulous, and I do think he's capable and has 130 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: hurt many women. And for all of the serial confessor 131 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: that he's been labeled, there's truth in there. After graduating 132 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: high school, Hall found work as a janitor and developed 133 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: an interest in the American Revolution and Civil War, so 134 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: much so that he began traveling the country to attend 135 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: and take part in battle re enactments. Authorities suspect committed 136 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: many of his murders close to the historical sites he visited. Today, 137 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: he's at a medium security facility in Butner, North Carolina, 138 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: which is where Laurie Howard went to meet him. She 139 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: asked Hal about the girls on her list, starting with 140 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: her unidentified Grace Dough. I spoke very briefly about a 141 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: series of girls. Once he shoots me down and says, 142 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: you know I'm not responsible for Grays. Then I want 143 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: to know. Okay, well, tell me more about who you 144 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: are responsible for, because I've got a list here, let's talk. 145 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: Utilizing her vast experience and interrogation techniques, Laurie had a 146 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: map brought in. Then she began listing off names of 147 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: victims and locations, carefully studying Hall's reaction to each one. 148 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: I want to know about Dana Stidham and he says no, 149 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, I need to know talk to 150 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: me about Trisha Ruler. He absolutely would not talk about 151 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: Trisha Ruler, but he did not deny Trisha Ruitler either, 152 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: And then Hall forever one to try and change the narrative, 153 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: did something unexpected and yet also completely in line with 154 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: the psychopath that he is. I was just about to 155 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: finish and hadn't yet finished the girls on my list 156 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: when he said, let the Springfill three. We did kill them. 157 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: And so then we started talking about the Springfill three. 158 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: I said, I want to know where are they? Larry, 159 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: and he said, okay, we're leaning. The two of us 160 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: are leaning over a map together on the table, he 161 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: and I and he said they're buried in the March 162 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: Train Forest. And I said, no, that's not gonna fly. 163 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: The march Tinging Forest is huge. You can't throw out 164 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: They're buried in the Marching Forest. And so he then 165 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: begins to kind of narrow that down for me based 166 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: on the map and what he can remember. The only 167 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: way to know if Paul was telling the truth was 168 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: to search the area he indicated in the Mark Twain 169 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: Force and locate those bodies. The problem became, however, that 170 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: the Springfield three case fell outside Laurie Howard's jurisdiction. So 171 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: she called the Springfield Police Department and shared what Larry 172 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: Hall had told her, or at least she tried to. Unfortunately, 173 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: to some degree, in law enforcement, there are egos, and 174 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: I think that they did not really want to readily 175 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: accept the idea that I might have information that they 176 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: had not either previously looked at and disregarded, or they 177 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: already had kind of pigeonholed a suspect for that case 178 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: and didn't really want to go outside of that, And 179 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: so I they had eliminated him in their own mind. 180 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: During her conversation with Larry Hall, Laurie Howard brought up 181 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: Tammy Zuwiki. On paper, Haul was the perfect candidate to 182 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: have abducted the twenty one year old college student. Investigators 183 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: were never able to corroborate his claim, but in two ten, 184 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: Paul confessed to the abduction of twenty year old Laurie Deppis, 185 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: went missing just four days prior and a few hundred 186 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: miles away from where Tammy Ziwiki was last seen alive 187 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: in Illinois. Paul denied any involvement with Tammy's murder. And 188 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: as difficult as it is to believe anything the man says, 189 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: Laurie Howard thinks he's telling the truth when it comes 190 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: to Tammy's case. Regarding Tammy, not only does he not 191 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: take credit for Tammy there's some things with Tammy that 192 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: are for me stand out geneographically. Jimmy was in the 193 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: right place at the right time for him. He was 194 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: three hours and forty five minutes away. The time frame 195 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: works for me. What doesn't work for me now is 196 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: she was wrapped in a blanket. She was also wrapped 197 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: in a sheet, and she was duct taped. Those things 198 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: do not do not fit with Larry Hall. He would 199 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: never do that. He would dispose of them, potentially with rope, 200 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: but he would never, you know, wrap a red blanket 201 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: or a form fitted sheet that came from him from 202 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: his van and leave that, especially with duct tape. He 203 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: just he's never been known to use duct tape. Like myself, 204 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: Laurie doesn't believe the circumstances of Tammy's murder fit. Larry 205 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: Hall's a mall. It's just not how the guy operated. 206 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: If he'd abducted Tammy, there's a good chance no one 207 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: would have found her body. Because if there was one 208 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: thing Larry Hall was good at, it was hiding his 209 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: victims well enough for them never to be found. Larry's way, 210 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: preferred way of killing would be what he really wants 211 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: to pretend, at least in that first few initial seconds 212 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: that this is going to be a reciprocal relationship, that 213 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: he's going to ask this young lady out or this 214 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: young girl out, and they're going to one want to 215 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: get in with him, or two want to be in 216 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: his presence. So he will go and ask them out, 217 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: or he will ask them if they want to ride, 218 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: and then is astonished when they fight him, and then 219 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: becomes incensed to the point that you know that he 220 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: ends up killing them rather graphically and brutally. Falling in 221 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: line with many of the people I've spoken to, Laurie 222 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: believes Tammy was likely murdered by a trucker. As for 223 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: Grace Doe's identity, Laurie finally got her breakthrough thanks to 224 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: advancements and DNA and forensics technology. I did not know 225 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: this until much later on. That was the first time 226 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: that that had ever been done in the United States 227 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: to reconstruct with just images. I think it was like 228 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: one millimeter images of MRI. So my email pops up 229 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: and it says, Laurie, meet Grace, and that was the 230 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: first time I'd ever had a picture of her. And 231 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: so then you know, fast forward years later and DNA 232 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: evolves and develops, and here we are. We now know 233 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: who her family is, and so Grace is now Shanna Garber. 234 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: Laurie Howard spent nearly twenty years searching for the identity 235 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: of Shanna Garber, never giving up on every last lead 236 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: and potential piece of evidence. Breakthroughs like that are rare, 237 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: but it's a reminder that hopefully dies if we allow it, 238 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: especially for families of these victims and their chance for 239 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: justice and a semblance of peace. And that hope is 240 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: what drives Lorie Howard. I want to tell you the 241 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: reason I do what I do. I got a phone 242 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: call from Shauna's brother and he said, we really want 243 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: you to come to Shauna's funeral for her burial, and 244 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: I was moved that they would even ask me, and 245 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: I said, I want to be there. I want to 246 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: be there, but I can't be and it really upset me. 247 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: And so then he calls me back the day of 248 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: the funeral and he says, I think it's important that 249 00:17:53,880 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: you know. Shan's headstone reads SHAWNA graf Harbor. He said, 250 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: because she was Grace as long as she was on 251 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: her it wants something to me. It that's a lot 252 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, that's just one of one of 253 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: a thousand stories. Of course, if you want to learn 254 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: more about Larry Hall and his crimes and even hear 255 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: from Hall himself, listen to episodes thirty two and thirty 256 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: three titled The Man in the Van of my other podcasts, 257 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: crossing the Line with Them William Phelps wherever you get 258 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: your podcasts, I take a look at Hall's crimes and 259 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: focus on two of his victims stories, and you might 260 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: even hear Hall confess to yet another murder. Paper Ghosts 261 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: is written and executive produce by me and William Phelps 262 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: and iHeart executive producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by our 263 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: supervising producer Julia Weaver. Our associate producer is Darby Masters, 264 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Christian Bowman and Abu Zafar. 265 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: Our series theme number four four two is written and 266 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts 267 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 268 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.