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Speaker 1: Welcome to had a Money.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking

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Speaker 2: crypto's wild rise and staggering fall with Zeke Fox.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So cryptocurrency has a lot of problems. There's a

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Speaker 1: climate issue. Crypto requires a ton of energy. There's the

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Speaker 1: trust issue, because what good is it if there isn't

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Speaker 1: a critical mass of users, a network of folks. And

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Speaker 1: then on top of that you have the recent developments

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Speaker 1: of Sam BigMan Freed's conviction of stealing billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: from customers at FTX, knowing that money laundering and wirefraud

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Speaker 1: were being committed. That does not build trust. So that's

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Speaker 1: a problem. Every transaction seems like a scam waiting to happen,

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Speaker 1: and a few folks know this better than our guest, Zeke.

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Speaker 1: We are lucky to be joined by Zeke as he

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Speaker 1: has documented the rise in the fall of crypto over

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Speaker 1: the past few years in his new book, Number Go Up,

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Speaker 1: which took him everywhere from El Salvador to Cambodia and

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Speaker 1: ultimately to a penthouse in the Bahamas. Zeke is an

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Speaker 1: investigative journalist and he did not hold back in his book,

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Speaker 1: and Zeke We've got a lot of questions for you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on Zeke.

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Speaker 2: I hope your diamond hands are feeling good. We've got

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Speaker 2: a lot to get to in this one. But the

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Speaker 2: first question that we ask everybody who comes on the

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Speaker 2: show is Matt and I. We're all about saving and

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Speaker 2: investing wisely for the future, but we like to spend

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Speaker 2: money in here now. We like to enjoy life along

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Speaker 2: the way, and so craft beer is something we splurge on.

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Speaker 2: What's your craft beer equivalent? What are you splurging on

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Speaker 2: while you're also trying to handle your money?

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Speaker 4: Well, so I'm definitely very thrifty. But there's one thing

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Speaker 4: that I love. It's like my most prized possession. And

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Speaker 4: you're gonna laugh, like typical, I'm in Brooklyn, Typical Brooklyn Dad.

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Speaker 4: It's my espresso machine. I have this fancy espressional machine.

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Speaker 4: And like, I mean, me and my wife joke that

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Speaker 4: like if we ever got divorced, she can have everything.

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Speaker 3: But I'm taking that and I think it's it's pretty.

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Speaker 3: It costs.

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Speaker 4: It probably costs like a thousand dollars, okay, which is

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Speaker 4: which is ridiculous, but it is. It's not one of

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Speaker 4: the crazy manual ones with the handle.

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Speaker 1: Like a style.

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Speaker 4: You're like, yeah, pulling your own shots. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 4: do press a button to make the shots. But like,

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Speaker 4: if this broke tomorrow, I would buy another one. Like

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Speaker 4: I would not live without this machine. When I go

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Speaker 4: on vacation, I come home and I'm like, uh, I'm

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Speaker 4: back to the espressial machine thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, I've gotten to where I'm traveling with my

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Speaker 1: own grinder in my own beans so that I can

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Speaker 1: do at least do some chemics while we're on the road. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's impressive.

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Speaker 2: I will say it's interesting that the custody battle would

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Speaker 2: be over the espresso machine, not the children, zeek. But

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Speaker 2: you've got your in the place where you want them.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like, right, yes, I've revealed my priorities.

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Speaker 1: Oops, we'll just make sure this episode one along. But

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Speaker 1: I also love even though that's your splurge, it is

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Speaker 1: also a way for you to save money, because what

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Speaker 1: that means is that you're not going down to the

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Speaker 1: corner to the local awesome coffee shop there and dropping

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Speaker 1: four or five bucks, you know, with tip on an

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Speaker 1: espresso right there. So even though this is your splurge,

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Speaker 1: I still love there's this undercurrents of diy, thriftiness and

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Speaker 1: frugalness that we can totally get behind.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I will say it, like in New York,

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Speaker 4: I think the easiest way to save money is to

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Speaker 4: make stuff at home because if you order like even

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Speaker 4: pretty regular takeout, especially for the kids, you could easily

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Speaker 4: hit one hundred bucks, you know, just from like the

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Speaker 4: corner you know, sushi slash thie restaurant. So if you

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Speaker 4: make like anything at home, even going to like the

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Speaker 4: fancy grocery store, I think it's still a big savings.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's let's dive into it, Zeke. We're not

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Speaker 1: gonna spend our entire conversation, our entire time here talking

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Speaker 1: about SBF. But his conviction last week, it certainly has

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Speaker 1: the attention of anyone involved with crypto. So what kind

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Speaker 1: of effect will the downfall FTX and animated Research and

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Speaker 1: now this ruling, What kind of impact do you think

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Speaker 1: this is going to have on just the crypto industry

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Speaker 1: as a whole.

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Speaker 4: So the crypto industry would like to say that Sam

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Speaker 4: Bankman Freed was just a bad apple, and it's true

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Speaker 4: like his fraud, I mean, he was a very bad apple,

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Speaker 4: and his fraud is different from other crypto companies, but

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Speaker 4: he's far from the only fraud in crypto. Like I

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Speaker 4: spent two years, as you were saying, like, investigating this

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Speaker 4: whole thing, and wherever I turned, I would see empty promises,

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Speaker 4: hype that nobody lived up to, total scams, dumb schemes,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of the stuff that I investigated has

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Speaker 4: now resulted in lawsuits in court, kate government charges. So

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Speaker 4: even if people, even if you just set Sam Bankman

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Speaker 4: free aside, I think that just the wave of bad

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Speaker 4: publicity is going to result in investors being a bit

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Speaker 4: more skeptical. That's why I just can't see a bubble

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Speaker 4: like the one we just lived through happening again.

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Speaker 3: It's just like you know, you asked.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm curious if you agree with this, but

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Speaker 4: I feel like if you, you know, even six months

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Speaker 4: from now, a year from now, a regular person, if

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Speaker 4: they hear crypto, what's gonna pop in their head? They're

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Speaker 4: gonna think like, isn't that the thing that the curly

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Speaker 4: haired guy used to like.

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Speaker 3: Steal everybody's money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's it's definitely his face, his

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Speaker 2: hair is synonymous. It's completely branded alongside crypto in general.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, my mom taught me growing up

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Speaker 2: that a bad apple ruins the whole bunch, right, and

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Speaker 2: so it really can have that sort of cascading effect,

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Speaker 2: just a massive overarching impact. And Zeke curious what it

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Speaker 2: was like for you. Your book was actually used on the

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Speaker 2: stand in the trial. And didn't Sam Bankofrid have to

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Speaker 2: read quotes from the book? I mean, were you expecting that?

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Speaker 1: What was that?

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Speaker 4: Like him so big surprise? It was totally wild. I mean,

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Speaker 4: the prosecutor practically was like, I'll tell you this story.

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Speaker 4: She I started talking with Sam. He made the strange

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Speaker 4: decision to testify himself, which opens him up to cross examination,

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Speaker 4: and she can bring up anything he's ever said to before.

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Speaker 4: And just before he got arrested, I'd spent a whole

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Speaker 4: day and night with him at his thirty million dollar

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Speaker 4: pet house in the Bahamas talking about what happened at FTX,

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Speaker 4: and so he told me a lot of stuff then,

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Speaker 4: and he'd even admitted some stuff to me that I

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Speaker 4: thought was, you know, pretty and I had asked him. So,

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Speaker 4: at the center of this fraud is the relationship between

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Speaker 4: his exchange FTX and his hedge fund, Alometera Research. And

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Speaker 4: so what happened was that let's say you sent a

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Speaker 4: thousand bucks to FTX and you bought some doge coin.

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Speaker 4: You'd look in the app and you'd think, oh, look

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Speaker 4: I got a thousand doge coin. Now pretty cool. But

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Speaker 4: in reality, you didn't have that thousand doge coin. You'd

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Speaker 4: send in that thousand bucks and Sam bankmin Freed had

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Speaker 4: just funneled it to his hedge fund where he could

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Speaker 4: go gamble on other.

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Speaker 2: Stuff, and so it was just a number on a

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Speaker 2: screen that didn't have any basis in reality.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean when everyone went to withdraw their money,

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Speaker 4: they realized that and they couldn't get their money, and

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Speaker 4: it was all gone. So he was trying to claim

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Speaker 4: to me that it was okay. It was allowed for

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Speaker 4: Alameda to borrow money, for the hedge fund to borrow money,

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Speaker 4: and he said all the traders on the exchange could

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Speaker 4: borrow money. But when I said, but did Alameda follow

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Speaker 4: the same rules as other traders on the exchange, and

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Speaker 4: he said to me there was more leeway like that's bad.

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Speaker 4: And the prosecutor asked him and she was like, have

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Speaker 4: you ever talked about the relationship between Alameda and FTX?

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Speaker 4: Did you ever say that they didn't follow the same rules?

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Speaker 4: And he was like, I don't know about that, and

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Speaker 4: she literally whipped out a hard copy of my book

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Speaker 4: walked it over to the stand. The defense was like objection, objection.

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Speaker 4: The judge said no, I'll allow it, and yeah, he

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Speaker 4: had to go over that, and then also some other

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Speaker 4: comments he made about his involvement with the decision to

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Speaker 4: allow Alameda to borrow even more money. So it was

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Speaker 4: shocking for me and a little uncomfortable, because you know,

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Speaker 4: when I do these interviews, I like to just think

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Speaker 4: like I'm just a guy who's you know, trying to

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Speaker 4: find out the truth about what's going on, trying to

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Speaker 4: write about what's going on. I don't like to think

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Speaker 4: that I'm part of some sort of like criminal prosecution

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Speaker 4: and I'll leave that to the cops, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: It was like you're in the story now, which is weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you are a part of it. And of course SBF

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Speaker 1: he claimed, I don't recall saying that. Yes is all

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Speaker 1: he could say, I guess you have tapes too.

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Speaker 4: Yes, luckily nobody asked for them. And making this even

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Speaker 4: more amazing, you probably know that Michael Lewis, the famous author,

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Speaker 4: also wrote a book about SBF that's more.

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Speaker 2: Favorable them, and so we wanted to ask you about

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Speaker 2: that because that seems crazy, and he also kind of

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Speaker 2: made some snide remarks about your book.

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Speaker 4: Well, in court, the defense was like, all right, prosecution's

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Speaker 4: got a book. We'd like to introduce our own book,

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Speaker 4: Going Infinite by Michael Lewis. And this happened. It was

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Speaker 4: in a little sidebar, like the jury couldn't hear it.

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Speaker 4: They just did it in a meeting with the judge.

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Speaker 4: But the judge said that the part of Michael Lewis's

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Speaker 4: book they wanted to introduce sounded like it was just

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Speaker 4: Sam making up stuff and that it would not be permissible.

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Speaker 2: So yours was I've actually written and reported, and Michael's

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Speaker 2: was a puff piece basically well, and that's certainly how

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Speaker 2: it's been reviewed, at least by folks who have looked

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Speaker 2: at both books.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's really crazy to me because I like,

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Speaker 4: this is my first book, and okay, so I was

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Speaker 4: down in the Bahamas right around the time of the

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Speaker 4: Super Bowl in twenty twenty two. This is I went

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Speaker 4: to go profile Sam bankmont Freed when things were going great,

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Speaker 4: and he was very unusual for a CEO. He was

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Speaker 4: just like the understand but he was just like, pull

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Speaker 4: up a chair, sit next to me, let me. I'll

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Speaker 4: just do all my business while you observe me. And

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Speaker 4: this was weird before I knew that he was like

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Speaker 4: running a massive scam. Nobody lets you do that. But

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Speaker 4: I saw on his calendar like the day before was

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Speaker 4: blocked off and it was like, go to the super

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Speaker 4: Bowl with Michael Lewis. And I was just at this

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Speaker 4: point when I was already working on a book too,

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Speaker 4: and I was just like, oh, no, Michael Lewis has

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Speaker 4: a crypto book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You're like, oh, you know, that's going to.

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Speaker 4: Be a number one bestseller. Who's going to want to

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Speaker 4: read my book? When you have the Michael Lewis option.

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Speaker 1: They're like, who's this Zeke Foe guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So when I'm writing the book, I was telling myself,

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Speaker 4: all right, you'd better go all out and do a

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Speaker 4: good job because you're up against Michael Lewis. But I

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Speaker 4: just thought that was like something I was using to

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Speaker 4: motivate myself. I did not think that actually the books

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Speaker 4: would be you know, compared when they came out, and

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Speaker 4: I never would have imagined that, you know, like reviews

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Speaker 4: in major newspapers would say, like Zeke's book is more entertaining, amazing. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not only compared, but also contrasted, as it seems

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Speaker 1: like you've you've done an excellent job just kind of

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Speaker 1: being a little more nuanced and diving actually getting into

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Speaker 1: the truth.

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Speaker 2: Telling a better story because and maybe not better more accurate.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, well not too much about the other book,

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Speaker 1: but life. I think that's the criticism, right, is like

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Speaker 1: there once you kind of decide on a narrative and

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Speaker 1: this is kind of goes back to like just storytelling.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to step off of that treadmill with the change,

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Speaker 1: with the fact change, and you have kind of decided

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Speaker 1: that the hero becomes the villain, that you want to

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Speaker 1: go a certain direction. Yeah, but Zee, let's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: kinda step out of this a little bit. I want

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Speaker 1: to kind of wind the clock back a little bit.

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Speaker 1: What made you go down the crypto rabbit hole in

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Speaker 1: the first place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, as an investigative reporter who writes about finance. People

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Speaker 4: are always telling me I should write about crypto, but

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Speaker 4: I just I didn't want to do it. I didn't

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Speaker 4: like it. I just didn't feel like there was anything

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Speaker 4: to investigate. I felt like, admittedly this was like a mistake,

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Speaker 4: but I felt like so many crypto schemes are just

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Speaker 4: like a guy says, buy my coin. It's really great,

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Speaker 4: everyone buys it, the coin goes up, then later it

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Speaker 4: goes down. I just didn't think it was like an

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Speaker 4: interesting story. But yeah, it was fomo that that changed

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Speaker 4: my mind. Because I'm on this group text with my

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Speaker 4: friends from high school. We call it Dan's Basement because

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Speaker 4: that's where we used to hang out, you know, twenty

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Speaker 4: years ago, and I love it. One of my friends, Jay,

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Speaker 4: a very funny guy. We used to write a humor

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Speaker 4: column together in high school and he's gone on to

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Speaker 4: he has like a successful career, you know, someone who

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Speaker 4: I really think highly of. He starts telling me that

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Speaker 4: we should buy is the middle of the pandemic. We're

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Speaker 4: all pretty bored, we're stuck at home. Group text is

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Speaker 4: very active, but he starts talking about something he calls

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Speaker 4: doggy coin and He's like, I don't. He's like, I

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Speaker 4: don't know what it's good for. I don't know what

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Speaker 4: it is, but like it's funny and you should all

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Speaker 4: buy it. And I fancy myself, you know, the financial

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Speaker 4: expert of the group being the investigative reporter. And so

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Speaker 4: I'm like, well, it's dogecoin, first of all. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: that went viral like three years ago, is never going

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Speaker 4: to happen again. It's it's not even funny. Let's move on.

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Speaker 4: But the price of dogecoin starts creeping up, and Jake

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Speaker 4: keep's texting us all updates, and he eventually makes enough

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Speaker 4: money to fund a trip to Disney, and he texts

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Speaker 4: us all, I am freaking nostra damis.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you'd all listen to me, you could

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Speaker 3: be a Disney too.

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Speaker 2: And you're sitting in there at home, hugging your coffee maker,

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Speaker 2: just like weeping.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it got a little heated, like this was like

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Speaker 4: some we were a serious disagreement between us.

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Speaker 3: Then it wasn't so.

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Speaker 4: Much that he was teasing me, or that he had

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Speaker 4: made this money or that he'd gone to Disney. It

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Speaker 4: was more just like I really wanted to be right

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Speaker 4: in this argument. This is this is what you do

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Speaker 4: argue with Yeah, this is what you do. You know

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Speaker 4: how this works, you know how this ends as well.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, like you said, a lot of folks were

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Speaker 4: making a lot of money, and yeah, he wasn't the

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Speaker 4: only one, you know. I had neighbors who'd made big money,

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Speaker 4: other friends who are making tons of money on it,

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Speaker 4: and I just felt like, Okay, maybe there is real

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Speaker 4: money being made here, and I want to win this

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Speaker 4: argument with Jay. So even though there's really no winning

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Speaker 4: the argument since he did make the money and I didn't,

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Speaker 4: I was like, I'm going to get to the bottom

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Speaker 4: of this now. I want to know what's up with

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Speaker 4: this whole crypto thing. What's behind it all? Why are

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Speaker 4: all these coins going up and up and up?

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Speaker 1: Did your friend cash out? Did he actually make the

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Speaker 1: money or or.

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Speaker 2: Did it so he made them like it Disney, But

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Speaker 2: sometimes people do that because they're like, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: like home equity.

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Speaker 1: Double down, double down to put it on a credit card.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: You're like, I mean, I got the money, it's in

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Speaker 2: there in the bank. I'm not going to tap it

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Speaker 2: necessarily because it's just going to keep going up. So Okay,

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Speaker 2: So I'm glad to know he got out at the

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Speaker 2: right time because there's a whole lot of other people

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Speaker 2: that were left holding the bag later on, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it is like a zero sum game, like

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Speaker 4: somebody's got to lose money for someone else to make

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Speaker 4: it because there's no real, like economic value being generated.

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Speaker 4: And I later met a nice woman from New Jersey

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Speaker 4: who worked in a school there who so it had

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Speaker 4: sort of a similar start to her story where she

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Speaker 4: made some money on doagecoin, but then got like real

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Speaker 4: into crypto and started sending more money to one of

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Speaker 4: these crypto yield platforms and ended up losing like a

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Speaker 4: big chunk of savings that she had been counting on.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: So Jay was able to resist the temptation, I guess,

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Speaker 4: But other people you make a little bit and then

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Speaker 4: you end up making some bigger bet and losing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, And that's I mean, we've heard from listeners to

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Speaker 2: this show because we've been tepid at best towards cryptocurrency

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Speaker 2: the whole way through.

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Speaker 1: And.

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Speaker 2: There we've had listeners who have lost ten thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: twenty thousand dollars something like that. And that's I think

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Speaker 2: that that's kind of what's happened in so many ways.

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Speaker 2: It's a bunch of people losing bits and pieces of

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Speaker 2: money that would have been better put in a roth

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Speaker 2: irate in an index fund or something like that. But

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Speaker 2: talk to us about like use cases for crypto. You

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Speaker 2: basically just kind of mentioned that it's not really generating

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Speaker 2: any ecomic value. But there have been all these kind

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Speaker 2: of pitches for what crypto is going to do, the

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Speaker 2: solutions it's going to provide, But those use cases don't

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Speaker 2: seem very helpful. Is it just as completely unnecessary a

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Speaker 2: solution in search of a problem. That's what it feels like.

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Speaker 4: You can talk yourself into some of these use cases, like,

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Speaker 4: for example, you know, when you swipe your credit card

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Speaker 4: at a store in the US, the store is taking

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Speaker 4: paying like a three percent fee a process of that transaction,

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Speaker 4: or two percent something like that, So like, wouldn't it

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Speaker 4: be cool if there was some way to avoid those fees?

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Speaker 4: Or like Western Union, when you send money to another

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Speaker 4: country there's a fee. You know, wouldn't it be great

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Speaker 4: you had a quicker way with no fees. But I

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Speaker 4: decided to judge crypto not based on the claims of

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Speaker 4: its promoters, but to like look into how it was

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Speaker 4: actually being used and to see if it was working

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Speaker 4: for anybody. And I can't claim that I looked into

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Speaker 4: every but what I can say is that the things

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Speaker 4: that I did look into, Like I went to El Salvador. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's the first country to adopt bitcoin as a legal currency.

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Speaker 4: And bitcoin promoters were like, this was working great. Everyone

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Speaker 4: in El Salvador loves bitcoin. It's making life easier for

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Speaker 4: the poor. What happened when I got there?

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 4: The first store I went into in Bitcoin Beach, the

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Speaker 4: town that the where the bitcoiners say the bitcoin revolution started.

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Speaker 3: I went to like.

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Speaker 4: A roadside stand and I asked for water. Everything was

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Speaker 4: sort of behind the counter. So the guy brought out

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Speaker 4: a water and he was handing it to me, and

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Speaker 4: I said, I'm in my gringo Spanish pueto pagar coin

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Speaker 4: bitcoin And the guy took the water from me and

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Speaker 4: said bassura, which is trash, and he just yeah, he

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Speaker 4: walked away. He was just like, get out of here. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm not selling you any water. And there were stores

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Speaker 4: that had signs that said we don't accept bitcoin. Basically

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Speaker 4: just like leave us alone, Taurus, it's so annoying to

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Speaker 4: use bitcoin that we don't want your money, because in reality,

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Speaker 4: they could like it's not that hard to use the

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Speaker 4: bitcoin app, but they're just like I can't be bothered. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: just go to the ATM and get some regular money

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Speaker 4: for me, right. And another one that I heard a

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Speaker 4: lot about was Axi Infinity. This was like a crypto

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Speaker 4: game and you you would buy it's sort of like Pokemon,

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Speaker 4: and you'd buy this team of monsters of game on

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Speaker 4: your phone, but you had to assemble a team of

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Speaker 4: monsters and like battle other monsters. And what made it

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Speaker 4: crypto is that you had to pay crypto to buy

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Speaker 4: your monsters, and if you won the battles, or even

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Speaker 4: if you lost them, you earned a different cryptocurrency called

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Speaker 4: smooth Love potionit and.

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Speaker 1: You can't make these names up? No, I mean somebody did. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they clearly needed like a name consultant. They've terrible.

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Speaker 1: This is where reality is stranger than fiction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, well it gets weirder because this game took off

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Speaker 4: in the Philippines. It went viral. There were like more

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Speaker 4: than a million people there playing it. Whole families were

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Speaker 4: like playing this game all day instead of working and

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Speaker 4: for a while, you could earn, you know, a better

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00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,639
Speaker 4: than average Filipino salary, just by playing this game on

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Speaker 4: your phone, earning Smooth Love potions and selling them. And

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Speaker 4: while this was going on, crypto people were like, this

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Speaker 4: is amazing. It's Web three. You know, people finally can

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Speaker 4: own their assets on the Internet. It's going to solve poverty.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be a new way of life for

401
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Speaker 4: the world's poor. But meanwhile, it's like, wait, why does

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Speaker 4: Smooth Love potions have any value? And it's like, well,

403
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Speaker 4: you need them to buy the monsters. It's like, well,

404
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Speaker 4: why do the monsters have any value?

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Speaker 3: Well, you need them to earn the Smooth Love potions circular.

406
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like I've been instructed not to say

407
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Speaker 4: the word Ponzi scheme because I think it implies like

408
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 4: criminal intent. But this is you know, this is an

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Speaker 4: unsustainable bubble. This doesn't make any sense, you know, And

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Speaker 4: it didn't make any sense, and it collapsed and people

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Speaker 4: in the Philippines lost real money.

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Speaker 3: And I went there and it was surreal.

413
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Speaker 4: I mean I went to the town where this first

414
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 4: went viral, and the town had literally been transformed by

415
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Speaker 4: this Smooth Love potion money, like people gave me a tour.

416
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 4: They're like, that guy put a second floor in his

417
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 4: house because of his smooth love potions. That guy, you know,

418
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 4: bought a new car with his axie money. I went

419
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Speaker 4: to a guy who's who'd moved out of town and

420
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Speaker 4: built this house in the country with his axie money. Yet,

421
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 4: but when it all collapsed, people had even borrowed money

422
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Speaker 4: and invested in And I've met people who were like,

423
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Speaker 4: really in the hole.

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Speaker 3: My driver.

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Speaker 4: Had lost like a thousand bucks to buy a team

426
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Speaker 4: of monsters. He borrowed it from his in laws, I believe,

427
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Speaker 4: and you know, he felt like really ashamed that he'd

428
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Speaker 4: lost this money and it was a big setback in

429
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Speaker 4: his life.

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Speaker 3: So I can't exaggerate how much this was.

431
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Speaker 4: This AXI was like their big example of like Web

432
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Speaker 4: three is awesome, and then once it collapsed, you just

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Speaker 4: didn't hear about it anymore onto the next one.

434
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that's the case, Like the reporting

435
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 2: on the back end has been has missed some of

436
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: those stories. For every one story of success, right the

437
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: bitcoin or the dochecoin millionaire, there's one hundred or at

438
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: least ten stories of someone losing quite a bit and

439
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 2: so we want to talk more about crypto's failings kind

440
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 2: of some of the crypto scammed attempts that were there

441
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 2: were often just hoodwinking people into losing thousands of dollars

442
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 2: or more. And we've got just more questions with Zeke

443
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 2: that we'll get to right after this.

444
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 4: Light.

445
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: We are back from the break talking with Zeke Fox

446
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: and z You were detailing some of the impacts of

447
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: crypto h some of the impacts on other countries, but

448
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 1: let's kind of bring it more state side. Do we

449
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: have any numbers about how much money, just millions of

450
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: normal folks lost during the crypto craze, because you know,

451
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: like like at its core, the crypto debacle of the

452
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: last few years, like it feels just like a massive

453
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: wealth transfer from normal folks to those who are out

454
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: there promoting crypto. But I'm curious if you had any

455
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: stats there.

456
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to say.

457
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 4: The market if you look at the market cap of crypto,

458
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 4: it got up to like three trillion, and now it's

459
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 4: down below one trillion. There's a two trillion dollar decline,

460
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 4: but that really overstates the amount of real money that's

461
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 4: lost because a lot of these coins they'll essentially they'll

462
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 4: be like billions of these coins that exist, but nobody

463
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: ever trades more than you know, a million of them.

464
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,239
Speaker 4: So a lot of these coin there's people who are

465
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: sitting on like a lot of value on paper, but

466
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 4: if they ever went to like sell their three trillion

467
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 4: zeke coins, they would find out that nobody really wanted them.

468
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: But in terms of real money, there's quite a few

469
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 4: scams where you know, at least a billion dollars was lost. Like,

470
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 4: definitely people lost billions and billions of dollars of real money.

471
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 4: There's a huge range. I mean, it's definitely billions of dollars,

472
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 4: but it's not somewhere between like ten billion and one

473
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 4: hundred billion, it would be my estimately.

474
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not just you know, trading crappy coins

475
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: the tank to zero. Talk to us about scams, because

476
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: it's not just like dummies, right, sitting in their mom's

477
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: basement sort of thing, like Mark Cuban lost money into

478
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: a crypto scam, right, And it's not even just scams.

479
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: Talk to me about crypto passwords. I mean, there were

480
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: those articles being re about people who had bitcoin locked

481
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: away and they forget their password and guess what they're

482
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: kind of sol in terms of in terms of cashing

483
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 2: out on the bitcoin that they own.

484
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Mark Cuban amazingly. He appeared in a pro

485
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 4: Axie Infinity documentary and gave a great quote where he said,

486
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 4: the numbers make perfect sense, like talking about this smooth

487
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 4: love potion thing. I'm like, I'm sorry they don't, Mark Cuban. Yeah,

488
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 4: and yeah, he also invested in some other I believe

489
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 4: he lost out on some sort of stable coin that

490
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 4: fell apart, maybe titan.

491
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 3: Coin or something. So he was really in the mix.

492
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: And well, the Sharks and Shark Tank, you know, like

493
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: mister Wonderful was all about FTX as well, so.

494
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 4: He played it the safer way, mister Wonderful. He got

495
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 4: paid fifteen million dollars to endorse FTX, and I think

496
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: he was paid an FTX stock so he would have

497
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 4: lost a fifteen million. But at least he's, you know,

498
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 4: no worse off than he started.

499
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: Except for his reputation.

500
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 4: I will say, true, true, but his dome is so

501
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 4: shiny we can't resist. I saw him at at Crypto

502
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 4: Bahamas in April twenty twenty two, the big FTX coming

503
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 4: out party, like the big celebration of Sam Bankman freed,

504
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 4: and he was preparing to do like a remote TV hit,

505
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 4: and he in the press room and he whipped out

506
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: one of those like a portable shaver and was just

507
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 4: like shaving his dome. So it's extra shiny. I was like,

508
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 4: that guy is dedicated. But okay, you asked about the

509
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 4: password thing, and yeah, I think banks are pretty annoying, right,

510
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: Like they charge you fees, they you gotta wait in line.

511
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you got lots of I got lots of

512
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 4: complaints about banks. But the nice thing is is like

513
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 4: there is someone who answers the phone, and if you

514
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 4: get ripped off, you can call them, and often you

515
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 4: can reverse the charges. So I went to go for

516
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 4: part of the book, I had to use like a

517
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 4: real crypto wallet called meta Mask. And this isn't like

518
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 4: if you use coinbase, you're not really doing crypto. You know,

519
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: you're just sort of like sending your money to coinbase

520
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 4: and they're handling all the crypto stuff for you on

521
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,239
Speaker 4: the back ending. So meta mask to right, right, So

522
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: most people, even people who like crypto, don't really have

523
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 4: anything to do with it. But meta mask is like

524
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 4: a decentralized wallet, and when you install it, you have

525
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: to watch this video and they tell you that. They

526
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: literally suggest because if you lose the password, it's over.

527
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 4: You lost all your money.

528
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: There is no recourse, there's nobody who's going to hold

529
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 1: your hand, there is no authority beyond you and your

530
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: ability to get into your own wallet.

531
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they recommend that you engrave the password on

532
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: a metal plate and then bury it in your backyard.

533
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 4: Like the video is playing like happy music while it

534
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 4: shows this, but I'm just like, no, I'm not doing that.

535
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 4: And then the funny thing about it to me is

536
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 4: that I knew this crypto wallet thing would be kind

537
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 4: of a hassle. I heard it was hard and confusing,

538
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 4: but I just still was not prepared for how annoying

539
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 4: it would be and also for just like how terrible

540
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 4: it would feel. Because the crypto wallet is just an icon.

541
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: It's a browser extension. So you've got like the little

542
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 4: box we write in that you type in the URL,

543
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 4: and then next to it maybe you have like I

544
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 4: have a stop sign that's my ad block extension. And

545
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 4: then if you install this crypto wallet, you get this

546
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 4: little foxhead and basically your money is going to live

547
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: in that Foxhead now, and you hopefully you engrave the

548
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 4: password on the metal disc and put it in the yard,

549
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 4: because like if something gets like if you ever had

550
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 4: like something go wrong with your browser and you have

551
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: to like reinstall or something like that, like that could

552
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 4: mean all your money's gone. Yeah, there's like no friendly

553
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 4: agent to call. And when I was this was for

554
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 4: an experiment for the book. I had my reasons, but

555
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 4: I was trying to send twenty thousand dollars to the

556
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 4: fox Head and like a friendly representative from Bank of

557
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: America called me and he was like, hey, are you

558
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 4: sure you want to do this, Like are you being scammed.

559
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 4: We've heard of a lot of like crypto scams. And

560
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 4: I was like, no, no, I'm doing it on purpose.

561
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: I want to send my money to the fox Head.

562
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 4: And he was like, that's what they all say, like

563
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 4: you should think this through, and I was like, no,

564
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 4: put it through.

565
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: I want to get scammed. I need to do it

566
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: for the book.

567
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: But I mean, pretty cool of the bank to have

568
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 4: some whole team of people that like try to help

569
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 4: you out if you are getting ripped off.

570
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: They're not all bad.

571
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: You got to say that for them.

572
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I think folks who are true believers

573
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: in crypto, they would say, well that that's not a bug,

574
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: that's not a problem. That's actually what we want. And

575
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: there are a lot of folks that are looking to

576
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: it for that decentralized that DeFi aspect of it. So

577
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: like we wanted to be like an outback steakhouse, no

578
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: rules just right now.

579
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, like if I thought this gave

580
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: me special access to like get rich quick schemes which

581
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: I couldn't get to otherwise, maybe I'd like it. Or

582
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 4: like if I didn't want to pay my taxes and

583
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 4: I thought I could hide my money this way, then

584
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 4: maybe I would try it. But the crypto people are

585
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 4: trying to say it's not about that. They're saying like,

586
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 4: this is a great app and that mainstream people might

587
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: use this for, you know, to maybe one day your

588
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: tailor swift tickets would live on the blockchain and somehow

589
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: be better. And they got a long way to go,

590
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: is all I'm saying. Like this app they have now,

591
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,959
Speaker 4: no regular person would ever want to use that if

592
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: they didn't think it was going to make them rich.

593
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: Sure, and so much of it, I mean so many

594
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: of the scams do have to do with scammers out

595
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: there fishing for that information. And this is you also

596
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: trying to get more content and experience for the book.

597
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: But someone who texts you out of the blue and

598
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: starts chatting you up and it's like, oh yeah, this

599
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: is somebody that knows something. Eventually you kind of trace

600
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: that back to Cambodia. So, given all the scams that

601
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: folks have experienced, how come the bottom hasn't fallen out altogether?

602
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 1: Because I mean, certainly some cryptos like bitcoin ethereum, they

603
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: seem to still have an air of legitimacy around them.

604
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: Is that how they should actually be viewed or do

605
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: you think that they're all going to meet the same

606
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: fate as some of these illegitimate.

607
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: You know, like the real weird ones. I mean it

608
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: should Bitcoin and ethereum be kind of different.

609
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 4: I will say, like, like this book it's like an

610
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 4: adventure story. It's a chronicle of like a crazy period

611
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: of history and have all these like weirdos and how

612
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: they became billionaires and then lost at all.

613
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 3: And it's not.

614
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 4: Like investment advice is not my specialty. I'm a prefacer.

615
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 4: I am going to say though, that, having spent two

616
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 4: years looking into crypto, looking into its use, is my

617
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: conclusion is that if this stuff is going to be

618
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 4: successful long term, it has to have some purpose and

619
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: it doesn't. And so maybe they'll come up with the

620
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 4: purpose in the future and maybe it'll be successful, But personally,

621
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: I'm I have no more fomo. They can go do

622
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 4: their crypto thing. I'm gonna there's a lot of things

623
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 4: that you can you could invest in, and I would

624
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 4: compare it to.

625
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: AI.

626
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 4: When chap GPT was introduced, people started using it immediately.

627
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: It was like an incredibly popular app, and so like AI,

628
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: there might be a lot of hype and scams there too,

629
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: but at its core, there's something that people want to

630
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: use and if people want to do it, then you

631
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: can make money from it. With crypto, they have yet

632
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 4: to produce this app that people want to use, and

633
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 4: so I think that is a big problem. And maybe

634
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 4: all these smart people working on crypto will come up

635
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 4: with that app in the future, but maybe they won't,

636
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm not I don't buy this like

637
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 4: digital gold argument that the bitcoin people have kind of

638
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 4: pivoted to where they argue that bitcoin will become some

639
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: sort of like observe assets.

640
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: It's hard for a currency that's that volatile. I mean,

641
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: that's another one of the problems of crypto is its volatility.

642
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: And when folks, yeah, when they do start pivoting to

643
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that store of value argument, it as of yet, it

644
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to hold a hole much water. But we've

645
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: got a few more questions to get to with you, Zeke,

646
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: perhaps some personal takeaways. We'll get to those right after this.

647
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: We're back to the break, still talking with Zeke Fox

648
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: about crypto's wild rise and staggering fall and who is

649
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: at the center of it all.

650
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: Zeke was.

651
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: Of a lot of this, and so Zeke thought he

652
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: was gonna no it was Zeke.

653
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: I just I mean, honestly, I feel like we could

654
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: just hang out, Zeke, drink beers or espresso, whatever your

655
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: preference is, and talk about all the stories you've got

656
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: from just your your investigative reporting. Fascinating stuff. And I

657
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: know you're not giving financial advice unless you're in your

658
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: text chain with your friends. But like as individuals, like

659
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: a lot of people listening to this show all about

660
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: getting their personal finances in order right. They want to

661
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: save more paydown debt invest in the future, Like, what

662
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 2: are the major lessons and takeaways that we can all

663
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 2: extrapolate from this rise and fall of cryptocurrency? How can

664
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: we be wiser and more vigilant in the present and

665
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 2: in the future, Because I mean, you said you don't

666
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: believe you'll see a bubble like this ever again. But

667
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: the truth is, like, bubbles have happened in history, and

668
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: I think we'll see more bubbles, maybe not quite to

669
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 2: this extent, maybe not quite this staggering in proportion and

670
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: in monetary value, but there will be things like this

671
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: that happen again in the future. So yeah, how can

672
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: we be wise given and and what can we learn

673
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: from this?

674
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 4: I think a lot about this conversation I had with

675
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 4: a salesman at Akia in the closet section at some

676
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: point during my research. Yeah, well, he told me that

677
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 4: he'd lost a lot of money on crypto and also spacks,

678
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 4: like you know, speculative stocks, And I asked him why

679
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 4: he had why he had done it, and he had

680
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: said something along the lines of like, look, I make

681
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 4: like twenty bucks an hour here at Aikia, I can't

682
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: really say very much, and like maybe i'd even said

683
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 4: to him, have you considered, you know, like more normal

684
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 4: investments and maybe getting slow and steady returns And he

685
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 4: was like, those slow and steady returns aren't going to

686
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: do anything for me, because if I ever want to

687
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 4: achieve my financial goals, I basically need to like win

688
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 4: the investing lottery.

689
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so say you got to have the lottery

690
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: ticket mentality.

691
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

692
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 4: So I'm like that makes sense to me, and I'm

693
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 4: sympathetic to him, And just the problem is it doesn't

694
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 4: work like you. I mean, maybe you'll get lucky, but

695
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: like you probably won't. And a lot of these investment

696
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 4: opportunities that you get pitched are set up to benefit

697
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 4: you know, the person who created them, and they're the

698
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 4: ones who are gonna benefit. And by the time I

699
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 4: don't know, like my friend Jay, he heard about dotgecoin early,

700
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 4: he did make money, but I think in general, by

701
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 4: the time you hear about some sort of like next

702
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: big thing, I mean, ask yourself, like, am I a

703
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 4: Ball Street insider? Am I really did I? You know,

704
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 4: do I personally know the people who invented this thing?

705
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 4: Am I getting like a special deal from them? And

706
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 4: if not, you're what they call the exit liquidity. Yes,

707
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 4: you're like they're dumping on you by the time the

708
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 4: Super Bowl ads roll around. You're the easy money.

709
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

710
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 4: And I think just this idea of maybe trying to

711
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 4: strike it rich, even though it's understandable why people might

712
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: want to do that, it leads them to bad places.

713
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 4: And I don't know, but I don't know what my

714
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 4: advice would be to that guy at a Kia. It

715
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 4: might be to because I also don't really like, I

716
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 4: don't know how you where you guys stand on the

717
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 4: avocado toast. I don't think you're gonna like find financial

718
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 4: freedom just by not buying that's craft beer.

719
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get you a down payment. That's

720
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: why we wanted to hear about your expensive espresso machine,

721
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: because there's you got to find that balance, and so

722
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: it's a difficult line to walk, right, but you do

723
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 1: have to be wise. You have to look to I think,

724
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: some of the more proven methods. And even though it's

725
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: going to take a little bit longer than you might think,

726
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: I think once you can understand the actual power of compounding,

727
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: there is a path forward, even with small amounts of money.

728
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: But it might take some sacrifice. Though in some other

729
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: areas in life that don't matter to you as much.

730
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: But nobody, nobody wants to like build wealth over thirty years.

731
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: They want to get rich in five. But the truth

732
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: is getting rich in five is almost impossible to pull off,

733
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: and building wealth over thirty even a janitor can do it.

734
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 4: So and I'll say, like, also, I believe in like

735
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: investing in yourself. Yeah, absolutely, learning new skills. Even with

736
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: this book, like, I put a lot of effort into it.

737
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 4: And I also the way nonfiction books work, you get

738
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 4: paid some money in advance to write the book, and

739
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 4: I like spent that money traveling in the world to

740
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: investigate this stuff to do because I wanted to, first

741
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 4: of all, because I thought it'd be fun and I

742
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 4: get good stories, but also because I wanted to make

743
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 4: like a killer book and hopefully that's going to be

744
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 4: good for my career in the future.

745
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: Well, it is a killer book, and we'll tell our

746
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: audience you should buy it.

747
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: And she read it for sure.

748
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: Two more questions before we let you go, Zeke, I

749
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: mean one of the other takeaways, I think you said,

750
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: if you don't understand something, maybe it just doesn't make sense.

751
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: Is that another important takeaway that like, Hey, if you

752
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: can't explain it to yourself, much less to your eight

753
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: year old child or something like that, then you are

754
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: investing in something that doesn't really have It doesn't make

755
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: sense really and you should avoid it.

756
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I kept I don't like to think

757
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: of myself as like I see these other people, I'm like,

758
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 4: they're really smart. They must know something that I don't.

759
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 4: And the lesson I learned was like, no, they don't.

760
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 4: Like they either like it's just fomo for them too,

761
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 4: or they're running a scam, or they aren't as smart

762
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 4: as I thought. So I personally, I'm gonna trust my

763
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 4: instincts a little more in the future.

764
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: Or they're lying. I mean, time after time you write

765
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: about folks who were speaking to you as if you

766
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: were dumb, and they oftentimes will say, uh, I'm telling

767
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: you the truth here, or either we're telling you the

768
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: truth or we're lying, and it turns out time after

769
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: time that they were in fact lying, that they were

770
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: in fact prosecuted. So again, given all of the scams

771
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: and the volatility that we see with crypto, I'm curious

772
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: as to what you think the future might be. Because

773
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: whether investors wanted or not. It looks like crypto is

774
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: continuing to gain momentum as opposed to losing momentum. Yeah,

775
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: the bitcoin it's doubled in this year, and it seems

776
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: like major players like black Rock, they are on the

777
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: cusp of getting a Bitcoin ETF approved by the SEC

778
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: Gray scale. Yeah, they're working towards converting their trusts. But like,

779
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: do you like, with all that in mind, do you

780
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: think that they're still hope for crypto given the fact

781
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: that they're seeing there seems to be maybe a more

782
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: healthy march forward.

783
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 4: I'm a pessimist and I'm gonna I'm gonna give you

784
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 4: a lesson that I learned from Jay on the doge coin.

785
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 3: He said that.

786
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 4: Elon Musk was gonna appear on Saturday Night Live, and

787
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: there was a lot of chat about what Elon Musk

788
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 4: mentioned doge coin on Saturday Night Live. Yeah, and I

789
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 4: think Jay was like, this is a by the rumor,

790
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 4: sell the news thing. It's gonna dump after he goes

791
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 4: on SNL. There's no way it can live up to

792
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: the hype and so and it did. So I think

793
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: that similarly, there's there's a lot of excitement about this

794
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 4: Bitcoin ETF, but maybe once it comes out, we'll realize that, Hey,

795
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 4: the people who wanted bitcoin, they already have it. They

796
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 4: bought it on robin hood or coinbase or whatever. Yeah,

797
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: and maybe this quenty TF isn't actually such a big

798
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 4: deal of it interesting.

799
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you so much for taking the time today,

800
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: sharing the stories and kind of informing us about what's

801
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes, especially giving what happened at

802
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: the end of last week. Having you being able to

803
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: speak to that today on our show just means a

804
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: whole lot.

805
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: So we really appreciate you.

806
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: And where can our listeners find out more about you

807
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: and your book, which is awesomely titled Number Go Up.

808
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, Number Go upbook dot com or you know, at

809
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 4: your support your local bookstore check it out.

810
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you so much for your time, Zeke.

811
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on. Wish I was down there

812
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 4: drinking craft beers with you guys.

813
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: Next time, dude, we'll do it in person. Beers on

814
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: us sounds good?

815
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: All right, madam.

816
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to getting beers with Zeke in person because,

817
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 2: like I said.

818
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: Espresso specifically, I want to want a shot out of

819
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: his one thousand dollars machine.

820
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: Me too, can you imagine, and does anybody have better

821
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 2: stories than Zeke right now? I mean, given kind of

822
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: what's going on the cultural zeitgeist, sure it like Zeke's

823
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: the man that be hanging with wet.

824
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: We got lucky with us when Yeah, it was well time.

825
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: Worre made it a lot of fun. And seriously, we

826
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: would recommend for folks to check out Number Go Up

827
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: as he documents all. I mean, he literally chronicles his

828
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: travels and he's seen the negative side, he's seen all

829
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: the different scams and how that has plagued so many folks.

830
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: And if you couldn't tell just from hearing him talk,

831
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: he's massively entertaining. And the book is too. And so

832
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: if you want like a good book to tell like

833
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: as opposed to a puff piece, like Michael Lewis wrote,

834
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: if you want a good book to kind of tell

835
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: you the ins and outs of what was happening with crypto,

836
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: not just SBF, but but cryptocurrency in general, this book

837
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: is the one to get. Yeah, but Matt, what was

838
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: your big takeaway from this?

839
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: Condon? I was going to ask you forcause a lot.

840
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: It was certainly a lot of narrative and a lot

841
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: of story, but so I will. My big takeaway isn't

842
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 1: something that he specifically said, but it is something that

843
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: he documented in his book, and that is the fact

844
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: that scams and the attention of fraudsters go to where

845
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: the money is and when you had this period in time,

846
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: and I mean, he says for different reasons that he

847
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: doesn't think that this bubble is ever gonna happen and again,

848
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: but for various reasons, we had a ton of money

849
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: on hand. We had a lot of folks even like himself,

850
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: like he said that, who were bored, and with the

851
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: combination of those two things, you got money and you've

852
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: got time. It was a perfect storm. It was a

853
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: perfect storm. And stay at home orders sort going after

854
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: all this crypto, and of course scammers and frosters they

855
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: wanted a piece of that. And I think that is

856
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: also one of the reasons we have seen so much

857
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: fraudulent activity surrounding crypto. It gets funny because he said

858
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: he's a he's he's pessimistic when it comes to the

859
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 1: future of crypto. Personally, I'm still keeping up a pretty

860
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: open mind as to what it could hold. I'm not

861
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: certainly we don't recommend for folks to go out there

862
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: and buy some. But if you are interested in it,

863
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: and if you are a little more skeptically optimistic, perhaps

864
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: then scratching that itch with no more than five percent

865
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: of your your overall portfolio is something that we are

866
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: very comfortable with folks doing. Yeah, it's what I've done

867
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: personally as well.

868
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: You have to be dotting your eyes and crossing your

869
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: te's and even five percent we say that in alternative

870
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: investments in general. Right, So so having five percent of

871
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: your exposure in crypto might be too much anyway, if you.

872
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: Already have single some single stocks that you're a fan of,

873
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: will count that towards the five percent.

874
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: If you're investing in art and whiskey and stuff like that,

875
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: which we don't love anyway, Like, well, you got to

876
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: keep it small and crypto can a portion of that

877
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: five percent can maybe be allocated towards crypto, but you

878
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: gotta be you gotta be really careful, and it's if

879
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: you're banking. I think a lot of my big takeaway

880
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 2: was the lottery ticket mentality that a lot of people

881
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 2: go into this with. That's what kind of Zeke was

882
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 2: talking about towards the end with the IKEA, Yeah, and

883
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: that's a great story. The thing is, of course, this

884
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: is why, this is why people in the people buy

885
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: in poverty by lottery tickets, because they're hoping. They believe

886
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: that the only way for them to actually accrue any

887
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: sort of meaningful financial status in this life is to

888
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: do it overnight. And people discount, and I get it,

889
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: I understand why that mentality exists, but they discount what

890
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: would happen if they stuck those dollars five dollars, ten

891
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: dollars of that time into index funds and that can

892
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: mean for them over the course of thirty years, And

893
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 2: they're like, if it doesn't happen two to three years

894
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: or overnight like tomorrow, then what's the point. So, yeah,

895
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: that lottery ticke a mentality. A lot of people go

896
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: into investing with that sort of idea in mind. We're

897
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: totally against that. We want people to think about their

898
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 2: timeline in decades, not even years, not months, not weeks,

899
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 2: And so I think that's just like an important thing

900
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: to recognize. In this whole crypto kerfuffle was a lot

901
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: of people hoping, hoping against hope, hoping against better facts

902
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: and knowledge that this would win out and make them

903
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: a bookoo of bucks, and in most people's cases, except

904
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: for Zeke's friend, it sounds like most people ended up

905
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: getting screwed. Yeah, for most folks, it did not panic,

906
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: even without there being outright theft, like in the case

907
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 2: of SBF that was like.

908
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: Literally just stealing money.

909
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: Sure, there were a lot of other ways where you

910
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: just lost it or you just lost some.

911
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: Of it or whatever. Yeah, a lot of people. Or

912
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: you lost your password and that's what you lost. And

913
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: just just promises. There were a whole lot of promises

914
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: that were given and they just haven't delivered right, And

915
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: so folks were just even if there wasn't outright fraud,

916
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: folks were just led astray. I think the Winklevoss twins

917
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: recently Winklebi they there's a suit filed against them because

918
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: of how it is. They talked about promises basically that

919
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: they were going to deliver that they didn't end up

920
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: delivering on. So it's uh, it's the wild, wild West still,

921
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: and we want everyone out there to be incredibly careful

922
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 1: if you are interested in crypto. But Joel our beer,

923
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: you and I today we enjoyed a desert fog by

924
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: Marble Brewery. This is another beer that was donated to

925
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: us by Bob. What were your thoughts on this one?

926
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: I really like this one. This one had like some

927
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: nice grapefruit notes in it, a bit more pithy. It

928
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: was just a bit bitter but also juicy at the

929
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: same time, So I kind of like that comments it.

930
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: Was very juicy. Yeah, I was a fan of the

931
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: juice in it. You could taste the dry the dry hotness,

932
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: so it kind of had that that sharpness that almost

933
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: comes across as tartness that you get with a dry beers,

934
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: and sometimes that can be a bit muted, but it

935
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: was not in this one, and so it leads to

936
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 1: a very interesting beer when you're able to taste those notes.

937
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, I really like to certainly enjoyed this one.

938
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: But you can find our show notes up on the

939
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: website at howdomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link

940
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: to Zeke's book his website and where it is. You

941
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 1: can check the book out if you are so interested.

942
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 2: And also Matt's going to link to his bitcoin wallet

943
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: so you can go grab whatever you want, just empty

944
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: it just for kicks, all right, that's gonna do it

945
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: for this episode, Matt. Until next time, best friends out,

946
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: best friends out