1
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,320
Speaker 1: Happy Wednesday. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast.

2
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,640
Speaker 1: Coming up, I've got a terrific interview with Jose Antonio Vargas. He,

3
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,080
Speaker 1: of course, he's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who, after

4
00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 1: winning the Pulitzer Prize, came out as an undocumented citizen,

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: and in fact he documented resident. In fact, he is

6
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: a memoir that he wrote in twenty eighteen and he's

7
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:34,479
Speaker 1: updated it now about and it's called a Memoir of

8
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,520
Speaker 1: an Undocumented Citizen. It's terrific conversation where we talk about

9
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 1: the line between journalism and activism and how collectively we

10
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 1: could all be smarter about how we report on immigration

11
00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: issues and not just always seeing it through the prism

12
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,360
Speaker 1: of economics. But before we get to that, there was

13
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 1: a pretty big earthquake in the Democratic Party on Tuesday night,

14
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,319
Speaker 1: the New York City Mayor's race. And what happened in

15
00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: that Democratic primary, Zoran Mom, Donnie's a parent victory. I

16
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,679
Speaker 1: say a parent because we still don't have the retabulation.

17
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 1: But the fact that he is ahead on first choice

18
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: ballots of Andrew Cuomo, I think is beyond telling. It

19
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,240
Speaker 1: is the shock I think most people, including many Mom

20
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: Donnie supporters expected on the first ballot at least Cuomo

21
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: to potentially have a narrow lead. The fact that he

22
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 1: didn't means it Mom Donnie's likely going to be the nominee.

23
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,720
Speaker 1: The real question now is Cuomo has a ballot line,

24
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,640
Speaker 1: does he stay, does he try to run, or does

25
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 1: he realize he's been shown the door. This is a

26
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: pretty humiliating defeat for Andrew Cuomo, once the king of

27
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party in New York, to not even be

28
00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 1: able to finished first in a plurality in a Democratic

29
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: primary in New York City. Of course you go through here,

30
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: and in hindsight, you know what was he running in

31
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 1: the first place for? And why did so many of

32
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 1: the so called establishment rally around somebody who resigned in disgrace?

33
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 1: And of course I have been asking this question about character.

34
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: Does character still count any more? Well? Perhaps to New

35
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 1: York City Democratic primary voters, characters still mattered over there.

36
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of ways you can explain

37
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 1: Mom Donnie's victory Young versus Old. I think that's the

38
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 1: probably the best prism to look at this, or New

39
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 1: verses Old. Cuomo. The name itself, forget his resume, but

40
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,240
Speaker 1: just simply the name evoked yesterday, not tomorrow, Mom Donnie

41
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 1: evoked tomorrow. You could talk about issues. Andrew Cuomo spend

42
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 1: a lot of time on Trump Israel, Mom Donnie spent

43
00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: a lot of time on cost of living. Where have

44
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 1: we heard that conversation before? It almost seemed like a

45
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: carbon copy of the failed Trump Harris strategy of making

46
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 1: it excuse me, a failed Biden Harris's strategy of always

47
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 1: making it about Trump, while Trump was always trying to

48
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 1: talk about cost of living issues and cost cost costs.

49
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 1: So I don't think Sometimes politics can be very simple,

50
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 1: As James Carville famously said, it's the economy stupid. The

51
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: candidate's seen as most credible talking about the issues that

52
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: matter most to voters on the ground usually have a

53
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 1: better chance at winning than the voter that isn't than

54
00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: the candidate that isn't talking about that. Mom Donnie was

55
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: talking about cost of living issues. Look, his policies may

56
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 1: not be popular if he implements him, but the fact

57
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: that he was talking about it, trying to deal with

58
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 1: the cost of everyday life for working class New Yorkers

59
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 1: clearly resonated. And that's the message Democrats, whether you're left

60
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: right or center ought to be taking away from this primary,

61
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: at least that's one of the messages there. But look,

62
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 1: this is going to put the party on notice. I

63
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,320
Speaker 1: think right now I saw Marcy Captor, another elderly member

64
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,600
Speaker 1: of Congress. I believe she's seventy nine. She's going to

65
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 1: seek another term. Dwight Evans SU's in his early seventies.

66
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 1: He's seeking another term in Congress. Another Democrat, Eleanor Holmes Norton,

67
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: the longtime Democratic representative for the District of Columbia, not

68
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,000
Speaker 1: quite a voting member, but basically the elected lobbyist for

69
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,799
Speaker 1: DC statehood. She's in her eighties and she doesn't seem

70
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 1: to want to step aside. So I do think this

71
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,480
Speaker 1: will only supercharge the new versus old debate inside the party.

72
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,920
Speaker 1: I think you will see if there were any sort

73
00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 1: of waffling younger Democrats thinking about not pulling the trigger

74
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,839
Speaker 1: on a primary challenge to an older incumbent.

75
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 2: Mom.

76
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 1: Donnie's victory may serve as a sort of calling card

77
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,239
Speaker 1: or a bat signal that hey, the water's good, jump

78
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 1: into this race. So I do think this could accelerate

79
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 1: more intra party fights, more contested primaries on the Democratic side,

80
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,360
Speaker 1: more incumbents, because in many ways Cuomo was the incumbent, right,

81
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,040
Speaker 1: even though there's another actual incumbent that's going to be

82
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: on the bout in the general, Cuomo was the incumbent.

83
00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 1: A few things to watch for that I'm going to

84
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,599
Speaker 1: be curious about over the next forty eight hours. What

85
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 1: does Chuck Schumer and Akim Jeffrey say, and are they

86
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 1: both on the same page. How quickly do they rally

87
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 1: around Mamdani? Do they not rally around him right away?

88
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 1: Is there sort of a wait and see approach? Because look,

89
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: there's going to be genuine fear among many establishment Democrats

90
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: and mainstream Democrats that the right will effectively weaponize the

91
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 1: fact that Mamdanni's a self described democratic socialist. All you

92
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,520
Speaker 1: have to do is look at what happened to Florida

93
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,480
Speaker 1: from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty four. In twenty eighteen,

94
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: Andrew Gillam was the Democratic nominee for governor, and he

95
00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 1: came within a hairs breath of winning, but he won

96
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: with the help of Bernie Sanders, and he basically was

97
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 1: seen as a rising star, and he didn't necessarily call

98
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 1: himself a democratic socialist, but it was not something he

99
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 1: ran away from. And while there was an attempt to

100
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,039
Speaker 1: sort of rebrand and democratic socialism in many ways, you

101
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,359
Speaker 1: talk to Bernie Sanders and those progressives, they say, hey,

102
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 1: this is more like the Northern Europeans and their version

103
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,919
Speaker 1: of democratic socialism. This isn't about Latin America authoritarian socialism.

104
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 1: But the fact is the S word did a ton

105
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: of damage to the Democratic brand in the state of Florida.

106
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: It is the single reason why the Democratic Party went

107
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: from why state of Florida went from swing state to

108
00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:01,359
Speaker 1: red state. It took I mean, twenty sixteen and twenty

109
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 1: eighteen Democratic candidates went Hillary Clinton won sixty four percent

110
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: in Miami Dade County and Andrew Gillan won sixty percent.

111
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: After that, the numbers kept kept going down to the

112
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,160
Speaker 1: point where Donald Trump actually carried Dade County in twenty

113
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 1: twenty four. So the point being is that the S

114
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 1: word does not play well across the country. It may

115
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: work in New York City, it can work in some cities,

116
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,360
Speaker 1: it has not so far played well nationally. Now, when

117
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 1: it's branded as democratic populism, it has a better chance

118
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 1: at getting a reception in Middle America, and I think

119
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 1: that's what Bernie Sanders has walked that line. But when

120
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: it's when it's leaned into as democratic socialism, it's a

121
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 1: much tougher sell because again, the S word does not

122
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,560
Speaker 1: go down very easy to a lot of voters. And

123
00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,240
Speaker 1: that's going to be the fear that you feel. This

124
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,000
Speaker 1: is what I think is going to really make Jefferson uncomfortable,

125
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 1: because they're going to have moderate members of their own

126
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:11,239
Speaker 1: caucuses petrified that the rise of Mondani is going to

127
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 1: take the Democratic brand any yank it to the left.

128
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: Now here's what I would say to those folks that

129
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 1: are concerned about that. Why'd you rally around a disgraced,

130
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: character challenged candidate and Andrew Cuomo. Rallying around Joe Biden

131
00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 1: was understandable at the time. Rallying around Andrew Cuomo has

132
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,239
Speaker 1: never made any sense to me. And I'm sure Michael

133
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 1: Bloomberg is wondering why he granted twenty four million dollars

134
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: to him is perhaps like two hundred and forty dollars

135
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,360
Speaker 1: to us. It's a bummer to lose, but that kind

136
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,680
Speaker 1: of money, but you can you'll get over it the

137
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 1: next day. I'm sure he's going to get over burning

138
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 1: through twenty four million dollars on behalf of Andrew Cuomo.

139
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,080
Speaker 1: But if you knew in your heart at hearts he

140
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,560
Speaker 1: wasn't the best candidate, and then you see these results,

141
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 1: you got to ask yourself, you know, how does this happen?

142
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 1: And I think that this is the atrophy among the

143
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,640
Speaker 1: Democratic establishment. Maybe this is a wake up call. Maybe

144
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 1: you'll see because they need more Abbigail Spamberger's and Mikey

145
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,440
Speaker 1: Cheryl's and a lot fewer Andrew Cuomo's and sort of

146
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: retread candidates who don't seem to know when it's time

147
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,680
Speaker 1: to step away from the spotlight. But look the basic

148
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,280
Speaker 1: lessons here. Mam Donnie ran a good campaign. Cuomo did not.

149
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,080
Speaker 1: Mam Donnie ran a very modern dare I say, you

150
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,880
Speaker 1: know campaign that made a lot of sense in the

151
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 1: twenty twenties. He was not a he did any kind

152
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: of media, independent media, traditional media, you name it. I

153
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,559
Speaker 1: think Andrew Cuomo sat for two podcasts and one of

154
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: them was with his brother. He wasn't very focused on

155
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 1: the issues that New Yorkers cared about. So I do

156
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 1: think some you know, campaigns matter, and I think it's

157
00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 1: a it's going There's going to be a a lot

158
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 1: of hot takes trying to say, oh, the Democratic Party

159
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 1: has been yanked to the left. I think right now

160
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party you have Democrats are very frustrated with

161
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party and so they're looking for new I

162
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: don't think this is necessarily means that the party's shifting

163
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 1: to the left. They're looking for new ideas, and Mamdani

164
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: was the candidate actually proposing new ideas. There really wasn't

165
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,600
Speaker 1: another candidate doing that. So again, sometimes politics is very simple.

166
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,959
Speaker 1: New beats old, pure and simple, focusing on issues that

167
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 1: matter to voters beats a candidate not focused on issues

168
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 1: that matter to voters. In that sense, it's pretty simple.

169
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,559
Speaker 1: But it's going to be fascinating watching this. I think

170
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 1: this is going to be the first shot fired and

171
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,800
Speaker 1: what is going to be a three and a half

172
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,720
Speaker 1: year long battle for the soul of the Democratic Party.

173
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,679
Speaker 1: Where's it going? Is it going to the left? Can

174
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,480
Speaker 1: it be reanimated? Can they be a big tent that

175
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,400
Speaker 1: you read my latest substack, you'll know that I'm skeptical

176
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,800
Speaker 1: that really either party could ever be a big ten.

177
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,319
Speaker 1: The two parties only become big tents when they're providing

178
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: shelter to wayward voters from the other party. Democrats recently

179
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 1: have been providing shelter for Republicans turned off by Donald

180
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,960
Speaker 1: Trump's character and certainly by the nationalism and the nativism.

181
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,319
Speaker 1: But it's not like those voters and those wayward Republicans

182
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: suddenly have a seat at the Democratic table and vice versa. Right,

183
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump one looking like he had expanded his tent.

184
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,280
Speaker 1: But just ask Venezuelan Americans in South Florida whether they

185
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:38,839
Speaker 1: feel like they have a seat at the table and

186
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: the Trump administration since he is now deporting many of

187
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,680
Speaker 1: those relatives, and they're wondering, Hey, why are you picking

188
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,559
Speaker 1: on us? So the point is is that I don't

189
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 1: think either party knows how to be a big tent.

190
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,840
Speaker 1: But there's no doubt the Democratic Party needs to rebrand itself.

191
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 1: Mom Donnie has fired the first shot in that campaign

192
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,680
Speaker 1: to rebrand. I think you will see an acceleration of

193
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,160
Speaker 1: younger Democrats challenging the establishment all over the country, using

194
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 1: Mom Donnie as sort of an inspiration. And you know this,

195
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: and then you're going to see probably a lot of

196
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: big donors and other members of the establishment try to

197
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,559
Speaker 1: stop this. And you know, I could argue this could

198
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 1: be very healthy for the Democratic Party. You know, in

199
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety Bill Clinton and Jesse

200
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,079
Speaker 1: Jackson and their proxies had all sorts of fights about

201
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 1: the future of the party. They were loud, they were uncomfortable,

202
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,560
Speaker 1: and it led a lot of people to predict, Oh,

203
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 1: the Democrats are doomed to minority for years and years

204
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 1: and years, and by nineteen ninety two they were winning

205
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: the presidency. A lot of folks, including myself, thought the

206
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,840
Speaker 1: divisiveness of Donald Trump and the Republican Party in twenty

207
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: fifteen and twenty sixteen was going to doom the party.

208
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 1: Did it doom the party? It's been a pretty impressive

209
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 1: tenure run. So I do think there are some on

210
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 1: the left who look at the success of Trump and

211
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 1: Maga and say, you know, this could happen on the

212
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 1: left too, where you have an animated base on the

213
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: right that's sort of new. And I think the question

214
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,199
Speaker 1: is going to be, how does mom Donnie, and this

215
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,680
Speaker 1: is what I'm going to be interested in following, how

216
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,719
Speaker 1: does mom Donnie start to broaden his tent? How does

217
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: he widen his aperture as a candidate. Clomo is a

218
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,240
Speaker 1: foil was actually quite helpful to him. If Clomo does

219
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,000
Speaker 1: not run in the general election, Eric Adams probably will

220
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,000
Speaker 1: be a pretty good foil for him. My guess is

221
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,559
Speaker 1: Eric Adams. Again, I would caution those in the establishment

222
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: who are nervous about rallying around Mom Donnie. If you're

223
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: thinking about rallying around Eric Adams, well, I would just say,

224
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: just look at how well the Andrew Cuomo campaign. That's

225
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 1: probably as good as the Eric Adams campaign will go,

226
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 1: because again, you'd be rallying around instead of a character,

227
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, another politician with character flaws, ethics flaws, and

228
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 1: actual legal trouble that it only went away because of

229
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,320
Speaker 1: his friendship or his begging of Donald Trump. So I

230
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 1: do still expect a wild general election. I think this

231
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 1: could be somewhat competitive. I think you will see skeptics

232
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: of Mamdani, skeptics of his brand of democratic socialism, skeptics

233
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 1: of his position or his rhetoric on Israel. That will

234
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 1: inspire a pretty robust, a robust campaign to try to

235
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 1: stop him from becoming mayor. But I have to tell

236
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,520
Speaker 1: you whether it's curtisly. While the Republican nominee, a very

237
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 1: damaged Andrew Cuomo on an independent ballot, or an already

238
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: damaged Eric Adams. Again, all three of those candidates have

239
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 1: run before. They're all kind of retready. Mam Donnie's the

240
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 1: new guy, uh and he's young, and so look, I

241
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: think this is a it's now going to be on

242
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 1: mom Donnie to prove that his type of politics can govern.

243
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 1: I think the biggest challenge progressives have had in general

244
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 1: when they've won these mayoralships has been the governing part,

245
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 1: and it hasn't gone It didn't go well in San Francisco,

246
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,360
Speaker 1: it didn't go well in a few other cities. So

247
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 1: it is it is certainly an opportunity here, but two tests.

248
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,920
Speaker 1: The first test for Mamdani this year is broadening his

249
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 1: ten and seeing if he can essentially convinced the establishment,

250
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: convinced the Schumers and the Jeffreyes there that this is

251
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,640
Speaker 1: that this could be a large, happy family. We'll see

252
00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:02,000
Speaker 1: how that goes on that front. Again. Will Jeffries or

253
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 1: Schumer back Mamdanni this week? Will they back them at all?

254
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 1: And if so, does one of them back them? I

255
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,200
Speaker 1: could see Jeffries backing him before i'd see Schumer backing him,

256
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,240
Speaker 1: but that will be. That will be the near term.

257
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 1: Little mini feeding frenzy of Capitol Hill reporters over the

258
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 1: next day or two is trying to get the two

259
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: of them to react, and you're already seeing it. New

260
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 1: Jersey's Republican nominee for governor, Jack Ciarelli, is already trying

261
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 1: to use mom Donnie as a way to redefine Mikey

262
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 1: Cheryl as part of a Democratic party going too far

263
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,400
Speaker 1: to the left. But again, how successful have Democrats been

264
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 1: at trying to trying to defeat Trump and trump Ism

265
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 1: by saying it's too far out of this, too far

266
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 1: out of that. It hasn't been as successful as they've

267
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 1: wanted it to be. It's usually only successful that the

268
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: candidate is flawed. So that's why now part two of

269
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 1: this is much on what kind of how does Mom

270
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: Donnie handle victory and how does the New York City

271
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 1: Democratic establishment. Do they embrace them with open arms or

272
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 1: is there a wait and see or is there a

273
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: cold shoulder. But needless to say, we've got a storyline

274
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 1: that I think isn't going to be going away all

275
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,640
Speaker 1: the way through the Democratic Convention of twenty twenty eight.

276
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: But I think it's quite possible, and we'll see how

277
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 1: all this plays out. It is quite possible we see

278
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 1: a five way general election, and you know what, I

279
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 1: welcome it because here's why. And this gets it to

280
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: a piece I wrote for my free substack. I hope

281
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 1: you've you did not know. I do not charge for

282
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,920
Speaker 1: my substack. It is free. I'm writing a weekly column

283
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: plus a few other that and also a few other

284
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,320
Speaker 1: notebook items that are included in there. Absolutely it is.

285
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 1: It is for on substack. And this week's column is

286
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: titled the Big Tent Illusion, and the point being is

287
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 1: is we hear a lot about both parties either wanting

288
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 1: or claiming they're a big tent. But let's be honest,

289
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 1: neither party is functioning like a big tent anymore. And

290
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:21,959
Speaker 1: in some ways you sort of see it in this

291
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 1: split that's taking place between Cuomo and Mandani. But the

292
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: Republicans aren't really a big tent right now. The loudest

293
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 1: voices MAGA on the right and arguably the activist progressive left,

294
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,199
Speaker 1: they're the ones dominating the conversation and they dominate the

295
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,159
Speaker 1: perception of what the two parties are particularly in the

296
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: eyes of the opposition, and then that puts a squeeze

297
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: on the so called middle of the road voter, where

298
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: they feel like they're picking between two outsized avatars of

299
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 1: Maga versus progressives rather than any nuance in the middle. Right,

300
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 1: this big tent, right, it doesn't really exist because these

301
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,159
Speaker 1: two bases of the party are defining right now the

302
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 1: identity of the parties. And I don't know how much

303
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 1: of that is frankly digital perception, right, is that the

304
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 1: fact that our politics is so online, it's made it

305
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: so binary that the mushy middle just doesn't have room

306
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 1: to exist in the digital world, even though it exists

307
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 1: in the real world. But you know, we can argue

308
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 1: that point. But just take Lisa Murkowski. She's the Alaska

309
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: senator who's an independent, gets elected as an independent these days,

310
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 1: but caucuses with the Republicans. She admitted in a podcast

311
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: that she doesn't feel at home these days in her

312
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: Republican conference, but she doesn't want to have a label

313
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,159
Speaker 1: define her, and she talked about that. But it's a

314
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: noble sentiment. But the fact of the matter is labels

315
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 1: are what's winning now, right. It is very hard to

316
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 1: exist if you don't have a label in our politics

317
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: these days, because dissent isn't seen as independence. If Alisa

318
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 1: Murkowski sense, it's betrayal. Look at what the republic Look

319
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: what Donald Trump's doing to Thomas Massey right now, right

320
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 1: this whole Thomas Massey thing. You know, the fact of

321
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 1: the matter is, if the Republican Party were a real

322
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 1: big tent, they'd accept the premise that you're going to

323
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: have your Thomas Massey's and your Rand Paul's, your sort

324
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,120
Speaker 1: of super libertarians that are going to be a little

325
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: cranky and ornery and not and really believe in a

326
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: super small federal government and really believe in limited government

327
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: on everything. And yeah, that's going to mean they vote,

328
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: know a lot, right, And that's Trump's big complaint. But

329
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,159
Speaker 1: in many ways he's trying to wipe out dissent in

330
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 1: his own party by trying to make an example of people,

331
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 1: you know, in Virginia, in the Virginia's first district in

332
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, they got involved in a primary that

333
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: was really more of a beef that Chris Losovita and

334
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 1: some Virginia Republicans had with the congressman there, but they

335
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 1: put all this money and energy into defeating this congressman

336
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 1: in the primary, and they barely, but they did it.

337
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: And it feels like the same thing they're trying to

338
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: do here, and the goal is to defeat him to

339
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: send a message. You know, it's almost like the horsehead

340
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 1: in the that they delivered in The Godfather, Right, they

341
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: want to send a message any other Republicans thinking about

342
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: dissenting publicly, any other Republicans want to criticize. So, you know,

343
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: if it were really a big tent party, even though

344
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: arguably twenty twenty four the result made it look like

345
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 1: the Republicans have become a big ten party, they're not.

346
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: Because it's a cultive personality party and if you disagree

347
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 1: with the king, you're out. And that's clearly how Trump

348
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: wants to practice governance.

349
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: Right.

350
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: He doesn't believe in coalition politics at all. He believes

351
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 1: in a form of purge politics, if you will. So

352
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: the problem is a real big tent if you do

353
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: it well, allows for disagreement. And yet our current media environment,

354
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 1: our current political discourse, just does it really reward disagreement

355
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: inside each other's party, because there's this belief that if

356
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: you disagree with the leadership, or you disagree with the president,

357
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: you're helping the other side, right, you're offering aid and comfort. Right.

358
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: What Thomas Massey's sin really was is that he agreed

359
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: with Rocanna about the War Powers Act. And you know,

360
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: how dare you agree with a Democrat? Right? Or if

361
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: a Democrat does it, how dare you look like you're

362
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: giving aid and comfort to MAGA? And it's an ugly

363
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: moment we're in. Right, Compromise is seen as weakness. Politicians

364
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: who try to bridge divides, they become the ones most

365
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: at risk. That's why our friend Don Bacon hasn't said

366
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: whether he's running for reelection again, and it doesn't sound

367
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 1: like he's going to do it. I got another person

368
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: I want to catch up on. I'm going to give

369
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: you little political update of a few headlines that I

370
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 1: want to make sure you haven't missed about. The only

371
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 1: people that have figured out how to govern across these divides.

372
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: None of them are in Congress these days. They're the governors,

373
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: right of Republican governors like Spencer Cox, Brian Kemp. I

374
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: think they've done a pretty good job trying to create

375
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: sort of a bigger tent of their Party, and on

376
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: the Democratic side, Jared Poulis of Colorado and be sheerf Kentucky,

377
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: Jos Shapiro, all three of them all seem to try

378
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: to govern in that big tenth philosophy. And look, in

379
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: some ways, governors have it easier to do that. They

380
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: kind of voters. I always say voters take their votes

381
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: for governor sometimes a lot more seriously than they do

382
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: senator or the House, because I think they view their

383
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: senator or our House member as a Jersey coller to

384
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: vote for. But I think they actually think the governor

385
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: is suppose is actually representative of how they want to

386
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: live their life, and they want to know they want

387
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: to lect somebody that might help them live their life.

388
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: So you know, whether that is self selecting and you

389
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: get that kind of politician or the job itself sort

390
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: of forces that. But the reason why the whole potential

391
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: second campaign here in New York City where we might

392
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: have a five ray multi party race for the mayoralship,

393
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: because I actually think the reason, look, the reason we

394
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 1: have either party ever can claim to be a big

395
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: ten is that there the only time either party looks

396
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: like they're a big ten is and when they're offering

397
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: shelter to those who feel alienated from the other party. Right,

398
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: So the Democratic Party looked like a big ten in

399
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen to twenty twenty because they were giving shelter

400
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: to sort of Republicans who weren't maga right, Republicans who

401
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: believed in small d democracy, Republicans who believed in the

402
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: rule of law, thought character mattered in politics, so they

403
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: offered them shelter. But those Republicans weren't necessarily, you know,

404
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: don't They weren't going to be offered a place at

405
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: the table on policy issues. They weren't going to be

406
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: offered a place at the table in that Democratic coalition.

407
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: You know, I don't feel like they didn't really get

408
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: a cabinet secretary cabinet post inside the Biden administration.

409
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: Right.

410
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: He rewarded a few of these people with ambassadorships. Jeff

411
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: Fla was an ambassador, Cindy McCain was an ambassador, but

412
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: they really weren't involved in governing. It was sort of like, oh, no,

413
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: we'll offer you shelter, you're a refugee from the other side.

414
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: And in similarly in twenty twenty four, I mean, look

415
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: at you know, go talk to a Venezuelan American who

416
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: voted thinking that Donald Trump was gonna that, yeah, he

417
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: was going to deport bad people, but not not my neighbors,

418
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: not people like you know, not my relatives in South Florida.

419
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: And yet you're hearing these stories as they took away

420
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: temporary protected status for so many different groups, because I

421
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: believe they simply want to up their deportation. They want

422
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: to up increase the pool of people they can legally deport,

423
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 1: and with so many with well, you had a lot

424
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: of Venezuelans in this country who were here and protected

425
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: legally under a temporary protected status. They got rid of it.

426
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: And you're hearing a lot of buyer's remorse in South

427
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: Florida from many Venezuelans, particularly those that live in Derral,

428
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: the actual neighborhood that Donald Trump owns a golf club.

429
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: And it gets to the reminder that, you know, the

430
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: coalition that elected Donald Trump in twenty twenty four looked

431
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: like it was a big tent Republican party, but they're

432
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: not governing as a big tent right. I just told

433
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: you the example of Massey. But even here, you know,

434
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: here they provided again just like the Democrats looked like

435
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: a big ten in eighteen and twenty, but they were

436
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: just providing shelter for people they didn't like. Maga. Well,

437
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: the Trump movement was providing shelter from sort of refugee Democrats,

438
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: if you will, who didn't like where the Democrats were

439
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: going on culture, on some of these law law and

440
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: order issues, immigration and domestic law and order. But it's

441
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: not as if those folks got a seat at the

442
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: governing table with the Republicans. Right, So I almost want

443
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: to disabuse this notion that there really can be a

444
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: successful big tent, at least not in the way our

445
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: politics are currently developed. We'd be a lot healthier of

446
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: political discourse if we had multiple parties. You know, right

447
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: now the Democratic Party is two parties and one. The

448
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: Republican Party is two parties and one. This tent gets this,

449
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: This fabric of this tent that they try to create

450
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: gets stretched so much. There are these giant rips in

451
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: the middle right, just on both of these, you know,

452
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: metaphorical rips. So, and I know some of you that

453
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: have known me a long time have heard me on

454
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: this rant before, but it will be interesting to watch

455
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: what is what does a multi party election look like.

456
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: And we may get this in November in New York City,

457
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: where you know it's it'll be interesting to see how

458
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: they pitch voters now since it will be you know,

459
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: winner take all in this case, it won't be a

460
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: ranked choice voting system, which I don't think is a

461
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: good idea. Like ultimately, the perfect multi party situation if

462
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: we could get rid of the duopoly of the d's

463
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: and the rs, allow for two other major parties to

464
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: pop up, so we'd have sort of a you know,

465
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: the two the four parties being sort of a progressive party,

466
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: a nationalist party that would be your far left and

467
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: your far right. And then you'd have sort of a

468
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: center left party that was sort of a business, business friendly,

469
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream liberal type of party versus maybe a

470
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: more pro business chamber of commerce type party on the right.

471
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: But you have and then you know whoever, with the

472
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: nominees of the you know, to the two leading vocaters

473
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: meeting a runoff, I think it would create a better

474
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, we I always say we civilization invented politics

475
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: so we could settle disputes without violence. It wasn't designed

476
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: to be winner take all the idea of politics politicking

477
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: is to come to an agreement that keeps people from

478
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: killing each other. It doesn't mean somebody gets one hundred

479
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: percent of what they want. Sometimes it's seventy thirty, Sometimes

480
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: it's fifty to fifty, sometimes it's thirty seventy. But the

481
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: point is is what does it take to keep the peace?

482
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: And if you have to make a compromise to get power,

483
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: I believe you will more likely compromise into enact power.

484
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: Right now, with our zero sum game, you don't really

485
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: have to compromise to get power. And if you don't

486
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: have to do that, right with non competitive primaries or

487
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: sort of you know, self segregated districts, you know where

488
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: you end up having hard deep red or deep blue,

489
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: whether it's state level races or district level races, it

490
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: does sort of take that away, which is why you

491
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: have such a mess way. I mean, Congress doesn't know

492
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: how to legislate anymore. Because you know, there's a great

493
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: story in punch Bowl earlier this week about how the

494
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 1: last thing we're you know, the big beautiful bill, that

495
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: the last thing Senate Republicans want to do is go

496
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: to a conference. Well, if any of you remember how

497
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: a bill became a law. That used to be how

498
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: a bill became a law. The Senate passed the bill,

499
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: the House passed a bill, and then they got together

500
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: in conference and hashed out the stuff that they disagreed on.

501
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: Then they came back and voted on the compromise. But

502
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: Senate Republicans don't even want to compromise with their fellow

503
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: Republicans in the House. So we have so lost the

504
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: plot on governing. Congress has so lost the plot, which

505
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: is why you have this just these terrible, sort of

506
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: convoluted part of line votes for these bills, whether it

507
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: was Biden's bill, which of course because it wasn't bipartisan,

508
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: half of it's getting thrown out by the Republicans. And

509
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: guess what, Republicans, once you pass this big beautiful bill,

510
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: half of all end up getting thrown out by the

511
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: time the next party gets full control. If you the

512
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 1: irony is is if they would all think bigger picture here,

513
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: had more patients and actually watched Schoolhouse Rock and participated

514
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: in Schoolhouse Rock, we might build some better legislation. But

515
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: then that might not get as many clicks or as

516
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: many likes now would it? So look.

517
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: It is.

518
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: It's frustrating watching this obviously, because you see that this

519
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: style of politics is why we're at each other's throats.

520
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: It's why it's so polarizing. Neither party is a real

521
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: big tent, and we haven't figured out how to create

522
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: a system that allows for our very diverse electorate, and

523
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: we have an extraordinarily ideologically diverse electorate that we don't

524
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: allow to sort of flourish, and a multi party system

525
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: four five major parties with that would allow full battle

526
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: access for them all that had runoffs. If instant runoff

527
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: voting is something that communities would want, great, I actually

528
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: think actual runoffs are just as fine too. I love

529
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: how you know, that's what the Louisiana system does. Nobody

530
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: gets fifty percent in the October race than the November

531
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: general election is a top two of the top two getters.

532
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: There's so many ways you could do this that could

533
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: sort of over time create these sort of compromise type

534
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: of election results that would I think have elected officials

535
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: that felt as if they had more vote that the

536
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: elector it felt like that they had a little bit

537
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: more skin in the game, rather than just having one

538
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 1: faction be able to successfully win one election and then

539
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: try to govern the other seventy percent that may never

540
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: have wanted them in the first place. So, by the way,

541
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: in this podcast, I have a great interview today with

542
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: Jose Antonio Vargas. He is the longtime journalist. Now I

543
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: guess you could call him an activist, but we actually

544
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: have a fascinating conversation about this. Look, he was a

545
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: Washington Post reporter, won the Pulitzer Prize, and then he

546
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: came out as an undocumented immigrant back in twenty eleven,

547
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: and it is wrote a terrific book in twenty eighteen

548
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: as an updated version of it now called Deer America,

549
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: Notes of an Undocumented Citizen, And we have a really

550
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: robust conversation about, you know, how can we have a

551
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: better conversation about immigration, about immigrants in this country that

552
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: is less about economic impact but also or cultural impact

553
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: and things like that. So I really hope you stick

554
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: around and listen to that conversation. But before we get

555
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: to that, I do want to get to a few

556
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: other nuggets that I think are were thinking. There was

557
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: a big development in the Texas Center race. As you know,

558
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with the Texas twenty twenty six Senate race.

559
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: You've got this. You got John corn the incumbent being

560
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: challenged in a primary MAGA friendly sitting Attorney General Ken Paxton.

561
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: Ken Paxton, who, like Donald Trump, has survived in impeachment.

562
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: He was impeached by his own party in the House,

563
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: in the state House, and he was acquitted also by

564
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: his own party essentially in the state Senate. I believe

565
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: his wife was a voter. She was a state senator

566
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: at the time too, so it's convoluted. Cornyn has basically

567
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: called Paxton every name in the book, believes Paxton doesn't

568
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: have the character or the ethics to be a United

569
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: States Senator. But in an interview with The Wall Street

570
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Journal this week, Cornyn also admitted that he's thinking about

571
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: getting out of the right. But he will only get

572
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: out of the race is if he can find a

573
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: way to stop Ken Paxton. All the polls are showing

574
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: that Cornan can't beat Paxton. Right, whether Corn's to establishment,

575
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: to associated with with the establishment. And I'm old enough

576
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: to remember when he was a call a row of

577
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: recruit for the United States Senate in twenty oh two,

578
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: so he has certainly been very supportive of the Trump agenda.

579
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: He's very careful what he tries to support and what

580
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't. When he disagrees, he tries to keep it quiet.

581
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: But it hasn't been enough. And in many ways, Paxton's

582
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: become a maga hero because he was impeached, because the

583
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: legal system came after him, and just like with Trump,

584
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: it became this weird badge of honor. It's almost strengthened

585
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: him in the Republican primary in Texas. So the only

586
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: thing I have on here that when I don't get

587
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: and it's not and he doesn't either the reporter didn't

588
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: ask in this interview with the journal, or it's been

589
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: completely dismissed. Cornan is not even at all seems to

590
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: entertain going the Lisa Murkowski route, which is run as

591
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: an independent. You know, try to be a viable challenger

592
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: in the general election. See if you can win a

593
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: three way race. I think there's gonna be an active

594
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: Democratic primary, But it does seem like the Democrats that

595
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: are running all are trying to run close to the center.

596
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: There's a first time candidate that jumped in the race,

597
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: a former astronaut. He's somebody to think about. It'd be

598
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: interesting to see how he does Colin Allred, who ran

599
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: against Ted Cruz the last time, he's thinking about it.

600
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: Pedro O'Rourke, who ran against Ted Cruz two times ago,

601
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: is thinking about it as well. So we'll see what

602
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: happens there. But I'm very curious because Corny and somebody who,

603
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: while not popular maybe among MAGA Republicans Texas very much

604
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: is a cent has sort of a its independents are

605
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: very centrist, and even the Democrats skew to the center.

606
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: How would he do in a three way race if

607
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: he weren't independent. So interesting to me that he hasn't

608
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: entertained that, or he's not publicly entertaining that. But essentially,

609
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: what Cornyn was saying is if he could find somebody

610
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: else to run in the Republican primary to support that

611
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: he knew could defeat Paxton, he would get behind that person.

612
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: Which so it tells me that the Republican freak out

613
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: about Ken Paxton is still pretty high up there. I

614
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: am one of those who believes with Paxton's the nominee,

615
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: it gives Democrats an opportunity to win that center race,

616
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: particularly with Trump not on the ballot. But the corn

617
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: In factor is a fascinating one. And it's I continue

618
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: to believe it's. Look, it's one of my I've got

619
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: two or three races that I'm already calling my that

620
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: I just can't get enough of, I can't read enough

621
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: about it. One is, of course, Michigan governor, where you

622
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: have the former Detroit mayor running as an independent, Jocelyn

623
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: Benson's the likely Democratic nominee. John James is the likely

624
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: Republican nominee. Frankly, it's probably as a candidate field is

625
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: strong of a field as you're going to see in

626
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: any three way race. I think they're all three have

627
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: quality resumes and certainly are viable candidates, and I think

628
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: nobody would say they didn't they didn't have the resume

629
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: to be be the job. So I'm obsessed with that

630
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: race because I think where are voters on this right.

631
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: Are they going to continue to sort of vote against

632
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: or are they going to start looking for third party alternatives?

633
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 1: So I'm fascinated to watch that and this Texas Senate

634
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: race for frankly similar reasons. Right, there's some there's clearly

635
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: a middle, particularly the center right, who feels I think lost,

636
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: they're homeless, They're Lisa Markowski, right, If you will and

637
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: how this plays out, and I think we've got Look,

638
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: the Texas filing deadline, by the way, for twenty twenty

639
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: six is actually in December of twenty twenty five, so

640
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: we'll going to have another four or five months of this.

641
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: But I definitely think it's something to continue to follow

642
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: and certainly something that I'm obsessed with. Finally, one more

643
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: thing that I don't understand why it doesn't get enough attention,

644
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: And a friend of mine pointed this out, and he's

645
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: absolutely right, which is this sort of the illegality of

646
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: the TikTok extension. Just because Donald Trump says that TikTok

647
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: that he wants to delay the law that essentially bans

648
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: TikTok if they don't find an American seller, you know,

649
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: they keep giving this ninety day extensions. He has no

650
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: power to do this. So basically, TikTok is illegal right now,

651
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: it's operating illegally, it's against the law. This is Remember,

652
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: this is legislation passed by Congress, it was legislation signed

653
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: by President Biden, it was legislation affirmed by the Supreme Court,

654
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: and yet Donald Trump has just simply refused to enforce

655
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: the law. And you could say it's just about TikTok.

656
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: But when I hear people talking about the fear that

657
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: he might just pick and choose which law he follows

658
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: and which laws he doesn't, say, boy, is there any

659
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: evidence that he's done this. He's doing it right now,

660
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: He's just now, I'm not going to do it. He

661
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: has no legal authority to do that. And yet Congress

662
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: is doing nothing about this. Nobody's gone to the courts

663
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 1: about this. There's been no I mean, it's it. There

664
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: should be more, you know, in the words of Bob

665
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: lol in nineteen ninety six, where's the outrage on this one?

666
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: You know, this should be more of a focus. I

667
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: say this, Yes, the Chuck podcast is on TikTok. So

668
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: call me a hypocrite for criticizing TikTok. You can. I'm

669
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: just pointing out the law is not being followed and

670
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: the president is intentionally defying the law right, intentionally not

671
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: following the law. The courts have said this law is

672
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 1: like I said, it's been affirmed by the Supreme Court.

673
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: It is a constitutional law. And everybody's just sort of shrug, right,

674
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, why and why aren't other politicians really picking

675
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: up on this. I think they're afraid of alienating TikTok fans, right,

676
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 1: And look, I just saw a survey at a twenty

677
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: percent of those surveys say they get news from TikTok.

678
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: So there is I think a political fear of alienating

679
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: a group of voters if they get too aggressive on

680
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: getting rid of TikTok. But I don't understand why there's

681
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: not more discomfort left and right that this president is

682
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: essentially just making up powers that he does not have

683
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 1: to not follow a law that he was supposed to follow, oh,

684
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty days ago, let alone ninety days ago.

685
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: All right, So with that, we'll sneak at a break

686
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: and when we come back, I said, just a terrific

687
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: conversation with Jose Antonio Vargas, journalist. I guess you have

688
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, I guess you call him an activist. But

689
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: again that's part of our conversation, and I think you'll

690
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: find it fascinating and joining me now is the Pulitzer

691
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Prize winner and author of Dear America, Notes from an

692
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: Undocumented Citizen, and it has been re released. He first

693
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: put this book out in twenty eighteen. It is updated

694
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: as it says here on the book jacket with new

695
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: material for quote Living in Trump's America. Jose Antonio Vargus,

696
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here, Thank

697
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: you for having me. So look, I look, your career

698
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: is remarkable, regardless of your personal situation. You won the

699
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize before anybody knew anything about your personal story,

700
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: and so I want to spend some time just talking

701
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: about thoughts on investigative journalism, in the state of media,

702
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: and all those things. But obviously, look, this is your

703
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: your you you updated this book. It is astonishing how

704
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: much things feel like they've changed in seven years since

705
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: this came out. Or frankly, I'm trying to remember now

706
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: what year was it when you went public with your situation.

707
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: Actually it was fourteen years ago this month. Okay, so

708
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 2: fourteen years.

709
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: Before a guy named this guy from New York descended

710
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: down an escalator and totally transformed the politics of immigration

711
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: in this country.

712
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: Back then, President Obama was supporting about three hundred thousand,

713
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: four hundred thousand and then a good SENI year and

714
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 3: I basically put my hand up and said, I'm here

715
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: illegally right these this is the situation these are the circumstances.

716
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: This is everything I had to do to you know,

717
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: quote unquote it in this country and to basically start

718
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: asking questions. I mean, that was that was my goal

719
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: from the very beginning, and to be honest with you, Chuck.

720
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: So that was in twenty eleven, right Trumps. He was

721
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: running for president four years later. Between those four years,

722
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: I had been traveling the country NonStop. So when I

723
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 3: outed myself was undocumented, I was prepared for the worst,

724
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 3: right because President Obama was supporting people, I basically put

725
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 3: my hand up, and to my surprise, I didn't hear

726
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: from anybody. I didn't hear from Ice, I didn't hear

727
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: from anybody. So I started just traveling the country. And

728
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: you know, at this point, I probably have done two

729
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: thousand events in forty nine states in the past fourteen years.

730
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: And all right, what's the fiftieth state? You obviously you

731
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: said forty nine, which means you know you haven't done

732
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: the fiftieth, which what is it?

733
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: Alaska?

734
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: But whatever, my cousin in Anchorage, I'll make them host

735
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: an event with you.

736
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: And whatever, and whenever Sarah Palin is ready to have

737
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 3: a conversation about it, newration in Alaska, where there's a

738
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 3: lot of Filipinos.

739
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: I'm more than happy to have it. Yeah, So I've

740
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: been traveling on the country.

741
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 3: So at the moment Trump announced he was running for president,

742
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: got down on that escalator and said, this is about

743
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: illegal aliens, and this was about Mexican people.

744
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: I felt kind of in my gut, as a reporter who.

745
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 3: Happened to be indocumented at the time, that he had

746
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 3: a shot. And I remember telling, you know, we have

747
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: a mutual friend, Christina Blantoni. You know, she and I

748
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: covered the I was at the Washington Pon, she was

749
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 3: the Washington Times, and bonded over that election campaign.

750
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: I remember telling Christina, and.

751
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 3: Like all of my political reporter friends, Ben Smith, I

752
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: told everybody, hey, take this guy seriously, he has a shot.

753
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 3: Everybody thought it was crazy because he had latched onto

754
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 3: this issue immigration that for the most part, people don't

755
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 3: really know anything about, which is ironic given the history

756
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: of this own country. Right, But for the most part,

757
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 3: people see immigration as a political issue. What Romney saying, right,

758
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 3: what God, I'm forgetting his name. Brick Perry, right, the

759
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: Senator of the governor of Texas. By the way, he

760
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 3: signed into law in.

761
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: State in State Dreamer first, the first state.

762
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: In the country in two thousand and one.

763
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: Right, well, so he was replacing a president in George W.

764
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 1: Bush who famously well, I hope I get the line

765
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: right when he said, you know, somebody that's going to

766
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: work that hard to cross the Rio Grand River to

767
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: come to this country, you know, deserves an opportunity to

768
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: live in this country.

769
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 3: To this point and correct me here, Chuck, I think

770
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 3: President Bush is still the only president to have ever

771
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 3: given a prime time speech while he was president on integration.

772
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: I'll never forget this because I was at I was

773
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 3: at the post I was, I was.

774
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: In two thousand and five, right, thousand five, Yeah, talk

775
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: about that. The two MPs talk about two tough rails

776
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: of politics, right, he did social security and immigration, which

777
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: turned out to be Wow, you really wanted to electric

778
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: keet yourself politically right, And you know, you.

779
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: Know President Bush ran as a compassionate conservative who ran

780
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: as a governor of former government in Texas to hand,

781
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: immigration was the personal issue.

782
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: If you read his memoir, I think there's a whole chapter.

783
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: No, it's very genuine. This says nothing politics for him.

784
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, for Obama, however, and at some point

785
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to get to that.

786
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: I'm finishing a.

787
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: Book right now that I've been working on for four

788
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: years that's going to get to all other than this,

789
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 3: and at some point President Obama.

790
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: Immigration was never really personal.

791
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: To President Obama as an issue, right, which is why

792
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: I think as much as we talk about Trump and immigration,

793
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 3: I think we have to realize that they didn't this

794
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 3: this whatever's happening right now. They didn't start with Trump. Clearly,

795
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: there's no due process of law, clearly all of that.

796
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 3: But from President Clinton to President Bush, to President Obama

797
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: to President Biden to now, this has been a bipartisan mess,

798
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: really epic proportions.

799
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: You know, hearing you say this, you're it's suddenly dawning

800
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: on me that the last president to make a positive

801
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: case for immigration was actually Bush. Yes, the last three

802
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: presidents dealt with it what I would call defensively, tell

803
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: you demigration defensively, and that's probably being charitable.

804
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: And this is.

805
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: Where the maga crowd or the maga media did. I

806
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 3: just see one of the newsletters call it maga media.

807
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 3: I think somebody just did diagnosis wait by the maga

808
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: media for grapped into this. If everybody's gonna watch it

809
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 3: on YouTube, if all you have to do is go

810
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 3: on YouTube and type immigration, most of the content on

811
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: YouTube on immigration are anti immigrant prigger You.

812
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: The entire MAGA.

813
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: Media ecosystem has been proactive, has been telling their story,

814
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: has been selling the American public.

815
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: These are the people to blame it. This is what's

816
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: happening the.

817
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: Place presumbly for fifteen twenty years now. This is connect

818
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: the story you know.

819
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: Rush Limbaugh when I was in middle school in California. Right, So,

820
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: from from from conservative talk radio to the rise of

821
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 3: Fox News to Maga media, this has been the story,

822
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 3: right and and the Democrats to your point, I've yet

823
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 3: to come up with an actual offensive story to tell.

824
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: About why immigrants is good are good for?

825
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 1: No the irony it's been. It's been the Southern Republicans

826
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: that did a better job, right, whether it's John McCain

827
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: from Arizona, George W. Bush and Jeb Bush out of

828
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: Texas and Florida. But they were but they were exceptions.

829
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: They were And you know, I want to know I

830
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 3: know some of them, but you know all of them.

831
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 3: I want to know who are all these posters who

832
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: are all these posters in DC and the ESLA Express,

833
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 3: you know, of these coasts that it's convinced the DNC.

834
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I remember being in Chicago reporting my book.

835
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 3: Here's Kamala Harris, the daughter of Immigran's right, she couldn't

836
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: talk about immigration, could not talk about immigration, right. And

837
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 3: I was in Chicago reporting on my book, talking to

838
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 3: black people in Chicago who are dealing with all these

839
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 3: venezuela As would just come they're black mayor, right, providing

840
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: resources for these Venezuelan immigrants.

841
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: Many of them, you know, going through the process, right, And.

842
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 3: There was an opportunity, there is an opportunity to have

843
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 3: a conversation about this. And I think in the Democratic

844
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 3: Party and look, you know, I'm I'm. I wasn't documented.

845
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: I recently adjusted to my status to getting an old visa.

846
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: I had never voted.

847
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: I've lived in this country for what thirty wait, this

848
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 3: summer would be nineteen ninety three, so I'll being a somebody.

849
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: Who came over with years twelve verse twelve, that was twelve,

850
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: And I've never voted.

851
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: Even dot lie that illegal aliens vote, right, So with what.

852
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: I assume it's the other way around the fear that

853
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: you must have been living with that you get caught

854
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: or exposed or sent away, and you didn't know where

855
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: you'd be sent to, you know.

856
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 3: And I'm talking to you, so I have to remind

857
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: you of this, you know, covering the two thousand and

858
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 3: eight Persidential campaign, they sent me to Iowa because I

859
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: was the only political reporter at the time who wasn't married.

860
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 2: So they're like, oh, send us in Iowa.

861
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 3: This is when Iowa had four Starbucks and I like

862
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 3: filed my stories in the four Starbucks all across Iowa.

863
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: You should have tried to come and go. They have

864
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: good coffee too, And it's the funniest location.

865
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 2: To free Wi Fi, free Wi Fi. It was free

866
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: Wi Fi and that's why it was free WiFi. Let

867
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: me just go around the story.

868
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 3: And I remember, you know, being in the campaign trail

869
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 3: driving with the driver's license that it wasn't supposed to have, right,

870
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 3: all the.

871
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: Time, renting a car, wondering at what moment, Yeah, yeah,

872
00:50:59,600 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: just the.

873
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: Old time, being surrounded by the Washington Press corps.

874
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 2: And I remember covering.

875
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: My most nine to eleven. Mind you, you're also going

876
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: on airplanes, right, going in an air probably a fear my.

877
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 3: Talkabe decided to have to do duck hunting in Oceola, Iowa,

878
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 3: the day after Christmas, and I went and here's my

879
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: kakabay right, who won the caucuses that year, started talking

880
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 3: about illegal dis illegal gap, these illegal immigrants. I was

881
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 3: right in front of them. To this day, I do

882
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 3: not know why I didn't. I didn't just blurt it out.

883
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 3: You know, governor of one of these people you're talking.

884
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: Did your employer know? Did anybody know what they at

885
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: the time.

886
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: Nobody, nobody knew. There was one guy I got there.

887
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 3: I got I got hired as an intern. Two thousand

888
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 3: and three. I came back, you know, they hired me

889
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 3: as a two year intern. Came back in June. I

890
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 3: started freaking out because I can't be at the Washington.

891
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: Someone's gonna find out. He Verify is going to catch me.

892
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: He Verify is.

893
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 1: Going to time Now is this proof he verified? And work?

894
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: By the way, it didn't work.

895
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: It doesn't work. It does not work. It does not work.

896
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 3: And also the racialized aspect of this, even though my

897
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 3: name is Sosantoio Vargas, I'm Filipino, you know, to your listeners, watchers,

898
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 3: if you see an Asian guy with the Latino name East.

899
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: Or Filipino, you're just Milio.

900
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: There's a hundred million of us, so you probably should

901
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: know that.

902
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: Well, this is an This is one of those things

903
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: that I grew up in Miami. I'm extraordinarily familiar with

904
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: certain immigrant groups. But if you lived in Los Angeles,

905
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know anything about Cubans, but I know a

906
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: lot more about Filipinos. Well, you know what I mean,

907
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: Like there's always and I've always thought East Coast, East

908
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: coast people have the hardest time getting Varipinos.

909
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 3: Not only that, and this is actually what you just

910
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 3: outlined is one of the reasons why the Esla Express

911
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 3: mainstream media doesn't understand what immigration is because they think

912
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 3: every Latino is the same thing, and they think every

913
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 3: Asian is the same thing, when in reality, this country

914
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 3: made up Hispanic and Asian American identities that do not

915
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: exist outside of America. Right, So to me, this issue,

916
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: this issue, I mean, it's ironic because immigration is in

917
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 3: the headlines every day, right, and yet immigration as a process,

918
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 3: like what people have to go through, Like why do

919
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 3: we have eleven twelve.

920
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: Million and documents people in this country.

921
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: Why, right, It's that a hard process.

922
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, hard, It's a hard process.

923
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 3: And the irony right now is people who are trying

924
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 3: to follow the process are being arrested at this very

925
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 3: exact place that they're trying to.

926
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: Follow the process, which is at the courts. So I

927
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 2: for me, I'm.

928
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: Still wrapping my head around what this moment, what this

929
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 3: historical moment means.

930
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 2: We're living through it.

931
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 1: We are living through it, and I you know, so

932
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: I used to I still believe today that I benefited

933
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: greatly from growing up where I grew up and when

934
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: I grew up. I grew up in southern Miami in

935
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, and I always say I was

936
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: born in Miama, and then I graduated high school from Miami. Okay,

937
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: it was a very southern city in the seventies. And

938
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: then you know, as more immigration came and there were

939
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: real fights. Okay, we had race riots, and they would

940
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: be different groups. You know, people tried to pit the

941
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: Cubans against the blacks and community and you'd have these

942
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: communities and somebodys pitted against each other by other entities,

943
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: right that are trying to keep power and stay power,

944
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: and it was really awful. It was really terrible, and

945
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: then it wasn't. It was one of these things. And

946
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it other than you know,

947
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 1: it's sort of like over time. Over time, people saw

948
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: the amazing communities that were being built from Little Havana,

949
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: the amazing community communities of Haitian Americans that were that

950
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: were thriving, particularly in in Dellery Beach these days, in

951
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: other parts of South Florida, and certainly quite a few

952
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: Venezuelans and stuff. And over time Miami stopped being a

953
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: southern city and it became Hong Kong, right, or now

954
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: I'll say today I call it Singapore, meaning it's just

955
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: a very global city. And now the com and I

956
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: would argue the people that you know, in nineteen eighty

957
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: the county had an English only ordinance and it passed.

958
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: So that just tells you what things were like in

959
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. Frankly, it's like California and circa nineteen ninety

960
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: four in proposition, you know, the infamous proposition where you know,

961
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: the public was in one place and literally a decade

962
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: later they're in another place. Same with Miami. Right, It

963
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: was a similar thing. And I always comfort myself, and

964
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: this is where I have the luxury to comfort myself

965
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: because I was born. Because I'm not I'm too, two

966
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: generations from being an immigrant, right, third generation, and that

967
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: is well over time. The rest of America is just

968
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: going through what California and South Florida went through in

969
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and that we're going to

970
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: get there, and it felt like we were. And I'm curious,

971
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,919
Speaker 1: how do you square where we are today with sort

972
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: of the recent history of immigration politics and the immigration wars,

973
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,479
Speaker 1: if you will, that we've had in this country over

974
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: the last thirty or forty years.

975
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it.

976
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 3: That's a great question, and that's something that I'm trying

977
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 3: to explore myself and for someone who's been traveling the

978
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 3: country NonStop since this happened, right, I mean, you have

979
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 3: North Carolina, were one out of ten people is.

980
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: An immigrant, right.

981
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 3: Atlanta has added half a million people just in the

982
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 3: past fifteen years California. California as a state is sixty

983
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 3: percent Latino and Asian sixty percent, right. So the demographics

984
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 3: of this country we are going through really an unprecedented

985
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 3: demographic shift.

986
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: And the life of what we hadn't seen since Dallas.

987
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: Island era, right, which was probably the most hostile, the

988
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: most hostile, right, the native And when you go I

989
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: always tell you know you think it's hostile, Now go

990
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: to Alis Island Museum right now and look at the names. Yes,

991
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: and these were just these were Eastern Europeans. The Eastern

992
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: Europeans were considered.

993
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 3: Italians and Italians and Irish and get but guess what

994
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 3: they got to be?

995
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: This thing called white.

996
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: Right, that's the plain side. Well, I've always said that

997
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: being being Jewish, I always say I get to hide

998
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: in plain sight. Yes there's prejudice, but but but I

999
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: can hide every time.

1000
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 3: I mean that's the main difference, right. And most of

1001
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 3: the immigrants right now are not coming from Europe. That's

1002
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 3: why I think the MAGA media again from Russian boughked

1003
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 3: Fox News. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out

1004
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 3: what is Fox News without immigrants. I mean, we're in

1005
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 3: many ways as like the first reality television show, and

1006
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: immigrants are like the casts and characters.

1007
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: Right.

1008
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: I remember having this conversation with NBC's pollsters and a

1009
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: Republican polster in particular, and it was the first time

1010
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: we had Trump ahead in a primary suits world have

1011
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: been in twenty fifteen, and we're just sitting there, going

1012
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,919
Speaker 1: explain this to us, and then you know what he said.

1013
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: He goes, well, he goes, Look, he goes, if you

1014
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: have one candidate just railing on immigration NonStop twenty four

1015
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: to seven, I promise you that candidate's going to win

1016
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: a Republican primary. And he said this in the summer

1017
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen, YEP. And he was trying to say this,

1018
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 1: this could be replicated anywhere. And he was basically saying,

1019
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: He's like, look, this is this is the currency of

1020
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: conversation with primary voters at the time. And I don't

1021
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: think and I guess the question is is it still

1022
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: the main currency? And it looks like it's still it

1023
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 1: still is.

1024
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 2: And and to the question I was trying to answer,

1025
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: was trying to get out when I was at the

1026
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: Washington Post.

1027
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember this era, there is

1028
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 3: these things called extras right there, We were all these

1029
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: like there were all these like you know, every every

1030
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 3: once we could get like a little insert from a

1031
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 3: community Montgomery County, loud in Virginia, and there were these

1032
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 3: stories in that in.

1033
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: Fact, that that was in that phase of the Washington Post.

1034
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: They still wanted to pretend they were a local paper.

1035
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: But yes, yes, and Don Gram was very proud of that. Yeah. Right,

1036
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: I missed, I missed the Washington Post being local. But okay,

1037
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: But back.

1038
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 3: Then, back then, those extras wrote stories about how immigrants

1039
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 3: were impacting, right, the.

1040
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: Business community, schools, businesses.

1041
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 3: Like what's the new restaurant opening, what's the new So

1042
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 3: we got to see this changes, I mean the changes

1043
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 3: in Virginia alone, Northern Virginia, right in the past twenty

1044
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 3: years demographically, right, immigrants.

1045
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: Loud You just take one county, Louden County. Just take

1046
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: one country, just take Louden County. It's an astonishing transformation. Yeah.

1047
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 3: But the coverage, how you know what is there's a

1048
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 3: great Arthur Milier quote about newspapers. A newspaper is a

1049
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 3: country talking to itself. Right, I love that quote. And

1050
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 3: so back then, this is twenty years ago. Now, the

1051
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 3: way we covered immigrants will weren't solely what the cable

1052
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 3: news networks and what the politicians and what the presidential

1053
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 3: candidate said. News organizations locally, we're actually telling the story

1054
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 3: themselves in a way that wasn't just political.

1055
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: I would argue that.

1056
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 3: The politics, how politicized we have become, immigration has been

1057
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 3: at the very center of that. And while that's happened,

1058
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, are there immigration report US at political

1059
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 3: at Axius that covers immigration as a process and an issue.

1060
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 2: Why aren't we asked? Why are we saying when all those.

1061
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 3: Horrible things was happening in La so horrible that Kim

1062
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 3: Kardashian actually spoke up.

1063
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: That's why I was like, wait, did Kim Kardashian just

1064
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 2: tweet something out about this? What just happened? I've been waiting.

1065
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,959
Speaker 3: I've been waiting for Robert Tardashian's owner to be like, hey,

1066
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 3: this is my issue too. Right when all that was happening,

1067
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 3: do you will think somebody would say, we should live

1068
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: in a country where there are no undocumented people. We

1069
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 3: should live in the country where we don't have a

1070
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 3: permanent class of people that cannot participate in America?

1071
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: What is it is?

1072
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 3: It? Was it?

1073
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: Max Frost the other day said, hey, document everybody, let's

1074
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: go and.

1075
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: You know, and here's the thing.

1076
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 3: So I am so I as I said to you

1077
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 3: a few minutes ago, I've had a change of status.

1078
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 2: Right, So I was here.

1079
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: Robert, why are you confident that you're that that this

1080
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: administration is gonna respect.

1081
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: Not confident at all. Confident.

1082
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 3: I mean it in a way that I'm telling my

1083
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 3: grandmother and my mom, you know who just got.

1084
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 1: Well, you traveled, you left the country bad.

1085
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: So that's the thing. I followed the process.

1086
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: I left the country without a promise from anybody that

1087
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: I would be allowed back to the country that I've

1088
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 3: lived in for thirty one years. That's how much I

1089
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 3: believe in having a process. And if we told people

1090
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: that there was a process, and we're talking right now,

1091
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 3: why isn't this the conversation in the news media. Why

1092
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 3: aren't we talking like this the way we talk about

1093
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 3: what's happening in every other issue in this country?

1094
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,959
Speaker 2: We don't. And I think we as journalists are also

1095
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 2: complicit to this.

1096
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: Now we're always are We go immediately to the political

1097
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: ramifications of the story, rather than how do we how

1098
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: do we deal with this issue? We do? We we

1099
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: have somehow an immigration system that can't keep track of

1100
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: everybody in the country. Well that's a problem.

1101
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: That's a problem.

1102
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 1: The fact that we don't know solve the problem.

1103
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 3: Be honest when it comes to this issue, we haven't

1104
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 3: even followed the money. I mean, I remember when you

1105
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 3: know so again I came out in June twenty eleven.

1106
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 3: I was surprised that nobody contacted me. I mean I

1107
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 3: remember I was. I was in DC somewhere and I

1108
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 3: was just doing an interview and I saw like the

1109
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 3: ICE director across the street and I waved in.

1110
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 2: Her like you, I was like, what do I do?

1111
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 2: Like what I right?

1112
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 3: I think we were just doing a TV hell so literally,

1113
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 3: And then when Rick Sengle was still an editor of

1114
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 3: Time magazine by October, I was freaking out, so I

1115
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 3: you know, I emailed Grick and I said, hey, I

1116
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 3: want to write a story about why they haven't deported me.

1117
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: We did I rose story.

1118
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 3: I actually called ICE myself, the local ICE office here

1119
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 3: in New York where I was living at the time

1120
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 3: full time, and I called them and I'm like, hey,

1121
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 3: you know, I haven't heard from you.

1122
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: Like what's going on?

1123
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 3: Right? But immigration as a process, why are people here

1124
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 3: illegally and why can't they adjust and changed their status?

1125
01:03:58,600 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 2: It's not because we're'm lazy.

1126
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 3: It's not because we are benefiting from government services that

1127
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 3: we don't qualify.

1128
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: For It's none of these things.

1129
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 3: It's because we have it figured out a process, and

1130
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 3: all we do is yell at each other, and both

1131
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 3: these parties have scored points. I mean, that's why for me,

1132
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 3: what I've been really protecting Chuck in the past fourteen

1133
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 3: years of doing this work is my independence. You know,

1134
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 3: the moment I get co opted by Democrats or progressives, you.

1135
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: Know, I mean, you know this is go finish this

1136
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 1: thought because this was something else.

1137
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 3: But I just remember when Trump was per selected president

1138
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen and all these progressives, you know, we're

1139
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: really pissed off, and the white people were really pissed off, right,

1140
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 3: and I have to remind them, well, what did President

1141
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 3: Obama do?

1142
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: You're only mad now at somebody you don't like that.

1143
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: It's doing it right.

1144
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 3: We have to be intellectually consistent here. I know I'm

1145
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 3: asking for a lot. I know I'm asking for a lot.

1146
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: Well, look you did something. Look you I'm going to

1147
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: go back to a story you said when Kukabee, you're

1148
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: covering my Kuckabee. He's railing on this attempted to just say,

1149
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: hey dude, I'm right here, right, you know, let me introduce.

1150
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 2: You to my story wearing orange.

1151
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't shoot, don't shoot, but uh, you know it

1152
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: is it is never easy for a journalist to become

1153
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: a story and that and I know I could feel

1154
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: like I was just going to say, you know, I

1155
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 1: know the cynics might say, oh, everybody wants to be famous. No, no, no, no, Well,

1156
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: people in journalism want to tell stories. Certainly, you want

1157
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: to be recognized for your work. There's a difference. We

1158
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: all want to be by the way every human being

1159
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: wants to be recognized for their work. You want to

1160
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: be seen. That's not the issue. But we all are

1161
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 1: trained as journalists. We don't want to impact the story

1162
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: we're trying to inform, right, Oh yeah, but in many

1163
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: ways you becoming a story does help inform the issue.

1164
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: But it had to be hard, Like, I mean, how

1165
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: much do you vacillate and coming across as an activist

1166
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: versus a storyteller versus a reporter.

1167
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I you have just you have just

1168
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 3: kind of dove right into one of the central challenges

1169
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 3: by professional and personal life.

1170
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 2: It's hard to think of an analogy.

1171
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: But you know, as I wrote in the book, as

1172
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:21,959
Speaker 3: I write in the book.

1173
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 2: You know, I had to come out as gay.

1174
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 3: Pretty early because I couldn't been in the closet about

1175
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 3: both things right too much.

1176
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 2: Let me get out of one of these closets.

1177
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: How do you two closets at the same time or

1178
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: is it the same?

1179
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 3: So let me get out of the gay one first.

1180
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 3: Thankfully Will and Grace was on TV.

1181
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: I grew up in you know, I grew up about

1182
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: the fact that it's easier to come out of the

1183
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: closet as a gay man than the game and undocumented.

1184
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 2: But however, I was in the barrier in San Francisco.

1185
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 2: I wasn't in like Lexington, Kentucky.

1186
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 3: So what I'm getting at is, I'm still asking myself

1187
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 3: this question about the difference between algae BTQ rights and

1188
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 3: immigrant rights.

1189
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:03,959
Speaker 2: Right, there's a shift.

1190
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 3: In our in our in the journalistic community where LGBTQ rights,

1191
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 3: same sex marriage. It became about people. Now, mind you,

1192
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 3: it's not perfect. Clearly the attack on trans people. Clearly,

1193
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 3: you know, same sex marriage people are thinking of rolling

1194
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 3: it back.

1195
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: But there was a cultural shift that happened.

1196
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 3: Right to me, The sixteen nineteen project by Nicolehanna Jones

1197
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 3: is another shift, right, I remember when I was growing

1198
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 3: up in journalism, you were not supposed to write about yourself.

1199
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 2: You're not supposed to advocate for something.

1200
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 3: When Nicolehana Jones said, as a journalist brob The New

1201
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 3: York Times that you cannot tell the story of America

1202
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 3: without telling the story of black people that America and

1203
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 3: just one't started right, and this was three Black Lives

1204
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 3: you know, it was kind of during the Black Lives

1205
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 3: Matter era. I just named two moments where journalists.

1206
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 2: Are are allowed kind of a.

1207
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 3: More culture role texture I'm more on this one on immigration,

1208
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 3: it's not And I'm wrapping my head around mind you,

1209
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 3: I'm asked. As I'm as I'm asking this question, I'm

1210
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 3: also realizing one of the reasons why how I've dealt

1211
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 3: with your with a question like that is to deflect is.

1212
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 2: It's so deeply uncomfortable.

1213
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 3: I wish, for example, you know, I'm like, I'm a

1214
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 3: like the Ben Smith generation of journalists right like by now,

1215
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 3: my goal in journalism was to run a US room

1216
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:31,799
Speaker 3: and start a startup.

1217
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 2: He said, what am I doing? I'm asking people, Hey,

1218
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, this is the status this is.

1219
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 3: There's a part of me that so wants just to

1220
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 3: move on from this, and I've had to really figure

1221
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 3: out and get some help to be comfortable being in

1222
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 3: the middle of a story that I'm trying to tell

1223
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 3: that I'm actually intimately involved in myself.

1224
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: Do you feel obligated? Is that what it is? Do

1225
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: you feel as though be letting people down? If you

1226
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 1: if you said, you know what, I've done everything I can.

1227
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I could argue if you stop doing any

1228
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:09,799
Speaker 1: more advocacy on this and you simply started a newsroom,

1229
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,520
Speaker 1: started a new organism, you know, just a news organization

1230
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: that was just you know, and certainly and maybe trans

1231
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: you know, created a better way to cover immigration and

1232
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: things like that, but the most part not being central

1233
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 1: to it. I'm guessing you it doesn't sound like you'd

1234
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: be comfortable with yourself.

1235
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 3: Well I and I actually think that's why I stay

1236
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 3: with Define American, which is this organization that I started

1237
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 3: fourteen years ago, right when the moment I came out.

1238
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 2: So if you go to define American dot com, please

1239
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 2: check it out.

1240
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 3: If you want to tell an immigrant story with accuracy,

1241
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 3: with humanity, and with context, please go to our organization.

1242
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 3: We have all the resources you can possibly need. Right

1243
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 3: there's side do I feel obligated. Yes, why do I

1244
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,919
Speaker 3: feel obligated? I feel like undocumented people in this country.

1245
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 3: I one of the people. There are many of us,

1246
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 3: but I'm one of the people that somehow survived the

1247
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 3: level of paddock ear, the level of tragedy that we're

1248
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 3: dealing with here and some of it. You know, when

1249
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 3: I think back at this moment, I'm a huge Tony

1250
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 3: Morrison van ever since my eighth grade teacher, and now,

1251
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 3: you know, assigned to beat the Bluis side. I feel

1252
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,639
Speaker 3: like we're all characters right now in the Tony Morrison novel.

1253
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 3: We're being pushed to the very edge, bush at the edge,

1254
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 3: right like, you say you're a mother, What kind of

1255
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 3: mother are you? You say you're a friend, What kind

1256
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 3: of friend are you? What are you willing to do?

1257
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 3: You say you're an American? What kind of an American

1258
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 3: are you? Right? Right?

1259
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:46,879
Speaker 2: Like, we're all.

1260
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 3: Being asked to do something bigger than ourselves. And I

1261
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 3: think the first few years of doing this work, I

1262
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 3: did think there is an obligation, and I've settled into

1263
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 3: it more and more because look like, I don't know

1264
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 3: when I'm going to get this American citizenship. There's right

1265
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,719
Speaker 3: now there's no process, right, I can't just bury.

1266
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 1: My way, and even politically, I have no idea when

1267
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 1: we get critical mass to force it now, maybe an

1268
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 1: economic depression after especially, you know, as do you.

1269
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 2: Think about that?

1270
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 3: Do you think that's actually now that we're seeing the

1271
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:31,839
Speaker 3: ramifications have been economically, do you think.

1272
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: We have seen it yet? I don't think we have

1273
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: felt it.

1274
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 2: I don't think I think we have.

1275
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: To feel it before that happens. You know. It is

1276
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 1: one of those things. It's I mean, you know, I

1277
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 1: always believe we event that we eventually get there, and

1278
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 1: that a majority of Americans do believe America is an idea,

1279
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 1: not an ethnicity, not anything. You know, We're we're supposed

1280
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: to be unlike any other country. We were we were

1281
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: we were founded on idea. Now it was flawed. We

1282
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: had a flawed system at the beginning. And frankly that's

1283
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: the why my favorite phrase of all the founding documents

1284
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 1: is more perfect union, meaning we're always trying. It's never

1285
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: going to be perfect. We're trying to always improve it,

1286
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 1: right and the and over a two hundred and forty

1287
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: eight year period, we've made a lot of progress, right,

1288
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 1: Like you could we've and yet it depends who you are,

1289
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 1: right for some people, doesn't look like we made any progress.

1290
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 1: And where you live and where you live, where you live,

1291
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: or who you were born. I always say, you know,

1292
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: people say, and I used to joke when when I'd

1293
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: get accused of being biased, I checked my pulse. I'm like, yeah,

1294
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 1: we're all born with original bias. Okay, where you're born,

1295
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: who you're born to when you're born. You know, all

1296
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,799
Speaker 1: those things matter, and it creates an inherent bias because

1297
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 1: it creates you. That's how you live, that's how you

1298
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: grow up wherever that yeah, wherever the lottery of mother

1299
01:12:55,160 --> 01:13:01,719
Speaker 1: nature puts you. And I don't know why that story

1300
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: is unpopular. I don't know why it's hard to sell

1301
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: that as a patriotic story, that America is an idea

1302
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: and that what sort of makes this interesting is the

1303
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,639
Speaker 1: fact that we we are you know, I look, I'm

1304
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 1: older than you. So there's this great Bill Murray monologue

1305
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 1: in the movie Stripes where he's trying to rally. He's like,

1306
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 1: were we were kicked out of We're a bunch of

1307
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: people kicked out of every other country and we all

1308
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,599
Speaker 1: come here. But it's this great sort of It's always

1309
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 1: been how I've wanted to believe who we are. That yeah,

1310
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: we're we're, We're, We're we're the Mutts of the globe.

1311
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:39,600
Speaker 1: And that's a good thing, you know, right. And I

1312
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:44,680
Speaker 1: don't know why we can't sell that story to conservative

1313
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 1: America today because it actually is an I would argue,

1314
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: is a small conservative idea.

1315
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 3: It's a conservative idea, and it's it's the Reagan. It's

1316
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 3: the Okay, what is that woman's name? The columnists for

1317
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal who was the speech for Eggy

1318
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 3: Newton's speech right of brought Reagan, you know, Ellis Island.

1319
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 3: I sometimes I read that speech.

1320
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 4: I reread it, and to your point, I think the

1321
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 4: thing that I'm wrapping my head around is I'm an

1322
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 4: old school guy in a way that I grew up,

1323
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 4: you know, in newspapers.

1324
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 2: I was at this event recently in LA and I

1325
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: got off.

1326
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:23,960
Speaker 3: I was checking out of the hotel, getting my rental

1327
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 3: car going out to the airport, and the valet guy

1328
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 3: out of himself wasn't documented to me like, oh, thank

1329
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 3: you for following my work, you know, and he goes, yeah, yeah,

1330
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:34,719
Speaker 3: you know, I've.

1331
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 2: Seen your YouTube videos and you're like a really good influencer.

1332
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 2: And he looked at him and I was like.

1333
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 3: I know, I'm a journalist.

1334
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 2: He was like, no, you're oh oh.

1335
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 3: And then as I was driving to la As, I

1336
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 3: thought to myself journalists were the original influencers.

1337
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,839
Speaker 1: Well, I used to say, we're educated, we should be educators. Well,

1338
01:14:57,880 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 1: we really are. I always say this the thing that

1339
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: I've fully I wish. I always had this as a

1340
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: north star at the beginning of my career, and it

1341
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: was really something I didn't appreciate until and I'll tell

1342
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: you when I started to appreciate it more, I was

1343
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: already at Meet the Press, and the most interesting conversations

1344
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 1: I would have would be with first gen Americans who

1345
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:21,120
Speaker 1: would come up to me and say, I've never missed

1346
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 1: a show. I learned English watching your show. I learned

1347
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 1: America watching your show. And I thought, and here's what

1348
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:28,759
Speaker 1: I would realize. Hey, I got to remember I'm educating

1349
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 1: people that I'm teaching them the system. Because you know

1350
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: what I thought about is, well, let's see if I

1351
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,040
Speaker 1: and I've done this. When you move to a new

1352
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: If I go to a new country, the first thing

1353
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: I do is try to watch the local news because

1354
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: I kind of want to understand what am I, where

1355
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 1: am I living, What's going on? What should I know about?

1356
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,680
Speaker 1: You know, just it's really about getting your bearings, not

1357
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: just geographic bearings, but your cultural bearings.

1358
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:55,559
Speaker 3: Right.

1359
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 1: You want to because everybody wants to. You don't want

1360
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: to stick out, and you know, no matter where you are, right,

1361
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,719
Speaker 1: you want to feel like you can you can navigate

1362
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 1: wherever you're wherever you're sitting. And it really it was

1363
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: one of those that I know, it's like you're like, well,

1364
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 1: you're a dumb ass chuck. Of course, journalists are educators, Yes,

1365
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 1: I know that, but you don't fully appreciate. And I

1366
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: do think and in fact, I actually think we as

1367
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 1: journalists do a poor job of recognizing this all the time.

1368
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: You know, So, for instance, if the country doesn't realize

1369
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 1: there are nine Supreme Court justices, is that on the

1370
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 1: country or is it on how often when we write

1371
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court do we remind we say that?

1372
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 2: Right?

1373
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,680
Speaker 1: And you know, there was an old saying about Joe Demaggio.

1374
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 1: Joe Demaggio was once said when he was playing baseball,

1375
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, I play hard every day because I never

1376
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 1: know when somebody's in the stands for the very first time,

1377
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 1: coming to see me play, And we don't know when

1378
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 1: somebody is reading your work for the very first time

1379
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: for I to learn about a subject, or watching me

1380
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: the press for the very first time, trying to understand

1381
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 1: the American political landscape. We have to remember we are educators,

1382
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 1: influencer find if we want to call influencer. But you're

1383
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: educating that guy, that's really what he was telling you.

1384
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: You're an educator.

1385
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 2: Well what I.

1386
01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 3: Ended up zeering on that because I don't know about you,

1387
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 3: But I've been struggling with this influencer economy.

1388
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 2: I've been struggling.

1389
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: I'm dabbling in it, and I don't want to call

1390
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: myself an influencer either.

1391
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 3: But see, that's what you that's what you just had

1392
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 3: to right. But I but in my thinking, in my head,

1393
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 3: what was the front page? What was the front page?

1394
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 1: As a kid editor's decision to influenceator's.

1395
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 3: Decision to influence and to curate and make sense of

1396
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 3: the world around us, right right?

1397
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 2: I fought for those.

1398
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 3: Front page stories in the Washington Post in this episodes

1399
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 3: of Chronicle, and I saved every single one of them.

1400
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 1: And why because you knew. Hey, I find him. I

1401
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 1: want my story to have impact, and how do you

1402
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 1: get impact?

1403
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 3: But see, but now we live in the world that

1404
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 3: is post literate. We live in a postliterate world. Oh

1405
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 3: there's a phrase.

1406
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: Keep going.

1407
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 3: We live in a post literate world. Okay, so much

1408
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 3: so that my wonderful niece a few months ago said

1409
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 3: to me, oh, oh, my sister assigned my teacher assigned

1410
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 3: your novel to my class.

1411
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 2: I panicked and called her. I was like, oh wait,

1412
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 2: it's a memoir. It's nonfiction.

1413
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 3: You're in college, Like, nonfiction is not fiction. I didn't

1414
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 3: make anything up, right, like you should? No, can you

1415
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:34,799
Speaker 3: go talk to your teacher?

1416
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 2: So maybe you Literacy.

1417
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 3: Is at the heart of what we're dealing with, right,

1418
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 3: the fact that I even can say maga media and

1419
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 3: say that with a straight face. Right, we have to

1420
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,599
Speaker 3: believe in this thing called facts. We have to believe

1421
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 3: in these things where these are the objective facts of

1422
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,600
Speaker 3: what's happening. And then I want your thinking about what

1423
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 3: you think of these facts, right, and then let's actually

1424
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 3: have a conversation about what you just said a few

1425
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 3: seconds ago, which I think is the most beautiful thing

1426
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 3: about this country. Ideas. What are our ideas? Why do

1427
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,360
Speaker 3: we move this along? How do we make sure that

1428
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 3: there's an America pickty years from them?

1429
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,240
Speaker 1: So let's talk about you what you're doing, which is

1430
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:29,640
Speaker 1: what do you Are you trying to come up with

1431
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 1: a better way to tell stories? Are you trying to educate?

1432
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 1: How would you describe the mission on that? Yeah? How

1433
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:40,040
Speaker 1: would you decide?

1434
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 3: I mean a big you know what, we were just

1435
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 3: talking about this a few minutes ago.

1436
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 2: As a as a.

1437
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 3: Gay man, it's been fascinating watching kind of the rise

1438
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 3: of organizations like glide right, and so when I started

1439
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 3: to find American fourteen years ago, that was actually part

1440
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:00,160
Speaker 3: of my goal was how do I be a glad

1441
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 3: for immigrants? And if you're watching LI sitting Glad is

1442
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:04,640
Speaker 3: you know the organization.

1443
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: Hey, Lesbian against the Information.

1444
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 2: It's basically it's about.

1445
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 3: So if you if you if you're a media entity

1446
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 3: and you portray gay people in a way that's inaccurate,

1447
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:20,800
Speaker 3: there your typical all of those things. Glad is on you, right,

1448
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 3: And then I remember I remembered trying to raise money

1449
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 3: for my organization. I was in LA and a meeting

1450
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 3: with the with the funder Gay funder who I said, Hey,

1451
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 3: this is my goal, and this funder said to me,

1452
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 3: this is twenty eleven. Well, but gay people have power

1453
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:43,960
Speaker 3: in Hollywood, Jose, you people clean their offices. Well I

1454
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 3: am so happy he said that and just named it

1455
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 3: out loud.

1456
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:47,639
Speaker 1: Wow.

1457
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 3: Right, the racial and the class aspect of what I'm

1458
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 3: dealing with.

1459
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: So I can't you know again LGBTQ being gay right now?

1460
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 3: There are there are you, There are are people you

1461
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 3: and I know who are running news rooms who happen

1462
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 3: to be openly gay, and yet their bias is not

1463
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:09,640
Speaker 3: being questioned. Right for the most part that we know of,

1464
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 3: we don't call them activists and advocates. And yet because

1465
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 3: I'm fighting for citizenship that I don't have right right,

1466
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 3: I whenever I go, I have to I remember one

1467
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:23,080
Speaker 3: time I was doing an event and this journalist said

1468
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 3: to me the former journalist now activists hose Antonio Barges

1469
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:29,719
Speaker 3: and literally looked at them going like, I'm sorry, did

1470
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 3: you like did I did I give away some sort

1471
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 3: of journalistic cards here?

1472
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:37,839
Speaker 2: Like what? Because because again for me, and then then

1473
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 2: I have to embrace that.

1474
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 3: I have to be like wait a second, why do

1475
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 3: I have to be an activist and you just get

1476
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 3: to be a spectator.

1477
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:48,639
Speaker 2: What is that about?

1478
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 1: Well, a better way would call you an expert journalist

1479
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,560
Speaker 1: because you're an expert on this system. The system is

1480
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 1: rot but you're an expert on.

1481
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 3: It and everything you want to know about immigration, I can,

1482
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 3: I can all the I can ask just my way

1483
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 3: through this, right, I think you do your bullet points.

1484
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 3: I can give you all of that right to front American.

1485
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 3: What we tried to do is if you are if

1486
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 3: you are a TV show, right, if you're a writer,

1487
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:15,599
Speaker 3: a producer, and you want to put an immigrant character

1488
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 3: in your movie or your film or your TV show,

1489
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 3: and you talk to us. If you're a playwright, you

1490
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:22,600
Speaker 3: talk to us. So we have all of these resources

1491
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 3: that are nonpartisan, that are factual, that actually want to

1492
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:29,839
Speaker 3: help storytellers do a better job telling this story.

1493
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:31,640
Speaker 2: So that's the job. Now here's the.

1494
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 1: Who's doing it? Who's doing it well? By the way,

1495
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,680
Speaker 1: these days, where's been some standout examples.

1496
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 2: Doing it well, doing it well?

1497
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:42,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I have to really give credit

1498
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,640
Speaker 3: to the beat reporters, right, both in all these organizations

1499
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 3: that the New York Times and the Washington Boasts, right,

1500
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 3: there's a guy who started I don't know if you

1501
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 3: heard about the Migrant Insider.

1502
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,240
Speaker 2: Have you heard this? No, I am a Migrant.

1503
01:22:56,000 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 3: Insider, And it's a newsletter. It's substance by Yeah, it

1504
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 3: is sub sect. You pay for five dollars a month.

1505
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 3: It's a guy, Bablo Mannikus is his name. He's a

1506
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,680
Speaker 3: journalist and he covers the hill. So if you're if

1507
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 3: you're in the hill and you want to know anything

1508
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 3: about what's what the congressional leaders are saying about agreation, you.

1509
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:15,839
Speaker 2: Go talk to him.

1510
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 3: So what I'm trying to actually do is he to

1511
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 3: rate all of this and try to figure out you know,

1512
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 3: if you want to know what's happening, how do you

1513
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 3: know what's happening. But given that this is going to

1514
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,560
Speaker 3: end on YouTube, YouTube is really what worries me for

1515
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 3: most tried America. Well, the great replacement theory, this idea

1516
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 3: that these immigrants hate this country and are changing this

1517
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 3: country and are trying to replace white people.

1518
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 2: That idea is so pronounced and so successful on YouTube.

1519
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: Well, this gets it too right, This gets it to

1520
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:57,479
Speaker 1: the whole algorithm, you know problem of big tech, which

1521
01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:00,439
Speaker 1: is big This is this is where I get from strated,

1522
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:03,600
Speaker 1: which is they try to claim, hey, we're not publishers,

1523
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 1: and I'm like, the minute you do an algorithm, you're

1524
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 1: a publisher because you're curating, you're curating content. You're curating, well,

1525
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:13,479
Speaker 1: you're actually doing you're curating an audience to content. You're

1526
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 1: connecting content to an audience via your algorithm. What's that

1527
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 1: difference between that and the editor who puts stuff on

1528
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:20,759
Speaker 1: a front page?

1529
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 2: But again, this is where what is everybody's responsibility?

1530
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: Right?

1531
01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:26,680
Speaker 2: And to be honest, as somebody who grew up in

1532
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:28,080
Speaker 2: the Bay Area, you know, I.

1533
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 3: Got paper for Google, got here the same community. The

1534
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,760
Speaker 3: elementary school day named after me is literally like a

1535
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,840
Speaker 3: mile from Google's headquarters. That's funny, right, And so you

1536
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 3: try to figure out the ability together and actually chucked.

1537
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,960
Speaker 3: You know, you're in a really unique role here, given

1538
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 3: what you've done and given what you're doing now, right,

1539
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 3: like we and the youth, we have to do better.

1540
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,200
Speaker 3: And so offline, I'd love to figure out a way

1541
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 3: to work with you about how do we actually hold

1542
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 3: some of these players accountable? What's the account of ability

1543
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:01,160
Speaker 3: process here?

1544
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 2: Right?

1545
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 3: Because I think that's lacking and to me, okay, Pew.

1546
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:10,160
Speaker 2: I'm a big Pew research fan.

1547
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 3: Right, there was a report in twenty fifteen that said

1548
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 3: that this country had forty eight million immigrants, forty million immigrants,

1549
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:21,599
Speaker 3: eleven million within the forty eight million. And then, according

1550
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:25,799
Speaker 3: to this report, America is population growth. Eighty eight percent

1551
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 3: of the population growth in the starty is going to

1552
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:31,160
Speaker 3: come from those forty eight million people. So we're now

1553
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:34,639
Speaker 3: talking about immigration as immigration reform, or we're talking about

1554
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 3: immigration as like the country is changing, it's already here.

1555
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 1: I'll be really simul about this. I'll be really cynical, Jose.

1556
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:47,600
Speaker 1: You want to know how how I think eventually we

1557
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 1: will get comprehensive infrotegration reform and get pathways to citizen Jasey.

1558
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 1: There was a little news story earlier this week that

1559
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:57,720
Speaker 1: indicated that Social Security is going to be running out

1560
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:01,960
Speaker 1: of money in twenty thirty three. Guess what We're going

1561
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 1: to be needing more younger workers, and it isn't coming

1562
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 1: from people that are already here and that will be Look, Unfortunately,

1563
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 1: politicians don't make decisions until literally there's a financial gun

1564
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:22,879
Speaker 1: to their head. And when I saw that, it's actually

1565
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:24,800
Speaker 1: how you probably if you asked me. Look, if I

1566
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 1: go into Koma today and I wake up in twenty

1567
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,400
Speaker 1: thirty five, yeah, we have pat wheel pathways the citizenship. Now,

1568
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: oh so security ran out of money. Huh, Like that's

1569
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 1: what I would assume, you know, maybe that should go.

1570
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 1: But hey, look solutions or solutions, you know, And for me, well.

1571
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 3: I got to say though, to complicate that, there are

1572
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 3: many immigration organizations that have been trying to tell that

1573
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:49,480
Speaker 3: story for more than twenty years.

1574
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 1: And it doesn't catch.

1575
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 3: Doesn't I'm about to ask you how do we make

1576
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 3: it catch?

1577
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, I'm fascinated by every time,

1578
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 1: it feels like about every six months, one of a

1579
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: major news organization will do a story about a fairly

1580
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 1: white small town who their favorite, you know, one of

1581
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 1: their favorite immigrant got deported. And they're like, well, he

1582
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:20,519
Speaker 1: wasn't one of them whatever them is right, or he wasn't.

1583
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 1: This this is you know, and those stories, don't you know,

1584
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,719
Speaker 1: It's funny how they don't change their mind about the issue.

1585
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: They just want to make an exception for their favorite

1586
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:31,880
Speaker 1: immigrants or.

1587
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:33,120
Speaker 2: Their favorite and I.

1588
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:35,599
Speaker 1: Don't know how. I don't know how we get out

1589
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 1: of that loop.

1590
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 3: Michael Bloomberg I mean, you're speak an organization called Partnerships, Fring,

1591
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 3: New Economy, Michael Bloomberg, Groupert Murdoch, all of these people

1592
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:45,759
Speaker 3: funded it, and it was all about telling the story

1593
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 3: of the economic contributions to mind.

1594
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 2: There are the first people that were in Alabama.

1595
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 3: The woman Alabama tried to pass that add to immigrant

1596
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:54,720
Speaker 3: law and farmers didn't show up. They were telling that

1597
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 3: story ten twelve years ago. So this is where being

1598
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 3: in a post litter rich society, right.

1599
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:04,160
Speaker 1: I say what you mean when you say it that way,

1600
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:06,880
Speaker 1: that is what I'm trying. I don't say, we can read,

1601
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 1: but we don't understand.

1602
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 2: This is this shock I thought. I thought. I thought,

1603
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 2: I come out as undocumented.

1604
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:15,599
Speaker 3: I get in the cover of Time magazine, I make

1605
01:28:15,640 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 3: a documented airs in CNN, I write a book. I

1606
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 3: do all of these things that you're supposed to check

1607
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 3: in a box. And then you've told the story, You've

1608
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 3: changed the narrative, and you've you've you've had an impact

1609
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:31,639
Speaker 3: narrative to me. And then I remember John Lewis, So

1610
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 3: I got arrested, I got detained in Texas twenty fourteen.

1611
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,599
Speaker 2: That's been the only time that I've been detained right.

1612
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:41,679
Speaker 2: It was like okay, and I guess John Lewis thought

1613
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 2: on the news, right.

1614
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 3: So when I got out, when they released me eight

1615
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 3: hours later, Congress m Lewis is one of the first people.

1616
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 2: To call me. I had met him at this event,

1617
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 2: and then he said.

1618
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 3: To me, oh, that was a really effective stunt he

1619
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 3: pulled off there, and I was like, oh, sir, it

1620
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 3: wasn't a stunt.

1621
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 2: I was like, sir, I was not. They just arrested

1622
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:01,599
Speaker 2: me at the airport.

1623
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 3: Well okay, well I didn't know that, but you know,

1624
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:06,599
Speaker 3: I was at the Starbucks on Capitol Hill and there

1625
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:07,759
Speaker 3: was this woman in her stroller.

1626
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 2: She was pushing her strollers saying.

1627
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:11,240
Speaker 3: Did you hear about their journalists that bordered the plane

1628
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:13,719
Speaker 3: and got arrested because he didn't have papers to borded

1629
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 3: domestic light?

1630
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 2: Did you know? He was like, well, you impacted her,

1631
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 2: so you've done your job.

1632
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 3: And then we had lunch a couple of months later

1633
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:24,360
Speaker 3: and he said to me something I'm still ropping my

1634
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 3: head around. He said, snick could not have survived Twitter, right,

1635
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 3: So all of those organizers in the six fifties and

1636
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:36,679
Speaker 3: sixties could not have survived the social media era.

1637
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 1: Because because I get that because there were gatekeepers and

1638
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 1: you know national media, you know, Tom brocow would tell

1639
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: me stories. In fact, it gets at the heart of

1640
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:48,200
Speaker 1: something I'm working on, which is trying to figure out

1641
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:50,479
Speaker 1: what I don't think national media ever had the trust

1642
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: of people. I think national media has always been it's

1643
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:56,719
Speaker 1: local journalists that build trust, and they are I've always

1644
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:00,000
Speaker 1: said local journalists. And the gutting of local the gutting

1645
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 1: the local media, local media is what is I think

1646
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 1: caused the crisis that we're all in. You know, national

1647
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:10,480
Speaker 1: media is the vegetables. Local media is the service journalism.

1648
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 1: That's what I've always that that was. That was that

1649
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 1: was the partnership at its best right and in the sixties,

1650
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 1: like you know Broke, Tom Brokaw would tell me stories.

1651
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:21,640
Speaker 1: You know, his first gig before he was brought to

1652
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,639
Speaker 1: Washington was to be the Atlanta in the Atlanta Bureau

1653
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 1: basically cover the civil rights movement. And you know, they

1654
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 1: hated NBC. All the locals hated the national media, but

1655
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 1: there was there was no alternative for them to complain

1656
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 1: about it too. So I think John Lewis is right.

1657
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 1: I think it's right with there. If there's an alternative

1658
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 1: media ecosystem, there's probably still segregation.

1659
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:47,639
Speaker 2: And one and the other.

1660
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:49,720
Speaker 3: Thing he said up after that was he said that

1661
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:53,400
Speaker 3: what was Selma about? He said, our job of Selma

1662
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 3: was to get the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Boston Globe,

1663
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:57,080
Speaker 3: in the New York.

1664
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 1: Times, the northerners to cover.

1665
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so he said all of that was a media play. Right.

1666
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 3: There's a great book I'm sure you read it called

1667
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 3: The Race Beat did. This book came out in two

1668
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 3: thousand and six. It's all about the press and the

1669
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 3: civil rights struggle. And again he told the story of

1670
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 3: all that white northern journalists going to sup and he

1671
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 3: was saying this, He was saying to me, but.

1672
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 2: We don't live in that kind of world anymore, Jose Right,

1673
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 2: I can't just be like, what is he going to say?

1674
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:29,160
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure if you know. Given Stephen Miller,

1675
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 2: who by the way, I'm just fascinated by Steven Miller.

1676
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,080
Speaker 3: I would just love to talk to him, like just

1677
01:31:35,160 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 3: have like a actual conversation. And you know, we both

1678
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 3: grew up in California. I want to I want to

1679
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:46,800
Speaker 3: like really understand how we got to be where he's at, right,

1680
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:49,639
Speaker 3: I really want to understand that. I want to understand,

1681
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:53,640
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk. I want to understand like what this mindset

1682
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:58,639
Speaker 3: is and and actually again have a conversation about why

1683
01:31:58,840 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 3: you think the way you think.

1684
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:03,240
Speaker 1: Well, I look, I don't I'm not going to speak

1685
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,920
Speaker 1: for them, but I've always understood the divide as I

1686
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: just think that and it's always been a close call

1687
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, right when it comes

1688
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:14,160
Speaker 1: to to is the country a nation of immigrants or

1689
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:19,160
Speaker 1: is it some or is it strictly a Judeo Christian society? Right,

1690
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:22,840
Speaker 1: And I think we haven't resolved that. I think in

1691
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 1: some ways that's the ultimate culture war. Well that's been

1692
01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: the core of the culture war probably going back two

1693
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: hundred and forty eight years, and.

1694
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 2: I think has changed that. I think.

1695
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 1: I mean, if you my favorite you said you spent

1696
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 1: time in Iowa during the campaign. I used to say,

1697
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 1: the best homemade Mexican food I've had outside of Washington,

1698
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 1: d C. Is in Carol Canoue, Iowa. I mean, you

1699
01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 1: know it was this homemade Molay. It was they were

1700
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 1: first generation bank I did not go ahead, sure, But

1701
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:07,839
Speaker 1: my point is is that all over the Midwest, right, basically,

1702
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 1: not far from I thirty five right, you go up

1703
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 1: I thirty five right from the Texas border to the

1704
01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:16,200
Speaker 1: Canadian border, and you go one hundred miles east or west.

1705
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Most of the independent Latino owned restaurants our first jed

1706
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:25,160
Speaker 1: and it's usually every small town's favorite restaurant. And it's

1707
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 1: unbelievable homemade, sometimes better than anything you're going to get it,

1708
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:32,640
Speaker 1: you know in some places, at least here in northern Virginia.

1709
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 3: So what you're saying, though, this is the point I'm

1710
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:39,640
Speaker 3: going to make. This country sells more more tacos than hamburgers.

1711
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:42,519
Speaker 3: You have more takadias than burger joints, right like, meaning

1712
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 3: I would bet you that in this country if you

1713
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:47,400
Speaker 3: were to ask quote unquote the typical American, they know

1714
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 3: the difference between Tay food, Dytnamese food and Chinese food

1715
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 3: before they know the difference between Ditnamese people, Thai people

1716
01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 3: and Chinese people.

1717
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 1: It's true progress or is that not? If you look

1718
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 1: at that say well that's a step.

1719
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:05,639
Speaker 3: That's a step, right, And I think again, I remember

1720
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,000
Speaker 3: when when Time magazine put Mark or Rubio in the

1721
01:34:08,040 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 3: cover and they said he was like the savior of

1722
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 3: this the Latino savior and I'm thinking to myself, oh

1723
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:15,760
Speaker 3: my god, none of them living, none of them live

1724
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 3: in California, right, because everybody in California will be like,

1725
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 3: what are saying?

1726
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:20,360
Speaker 2: Wait? What?

1727
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 3: Right? We live in a country where there's forty million Mexicans.

1728
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:25,639
Speaker 3: Mexicans in this country right now?

1729
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 2: Are what the.

1730
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:30,639
Speaker 3: Germans were in America in the in the nineteenth century, didn't?

1731
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:32,559
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1732
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:34,479
Speaker 3: So this is this is actually what I'm what I'm

1733
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:36,800
Speaker 3: getting at I'm trying to finish this book is I'm

1734
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,959
Speaker 3: trying to ask questions around what makes the Mexican experience

1735
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,839
Speaker 3: different from the German one. Now, mind you, the Germans

1736
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,880
Speaker 3: had to like cross an ocean to come here, right,

1737
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 3: Mexicans they only had to walk, And for many of

1738
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 3: them this was actually their country before it became called

1739
01:34:54,040 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 3: what America's country?

1740
01:34:55,160 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 1: Right?

1741
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 2: So, these, to.

1742
01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:01,799
Speaker 3: Me are the conversations in a post litter at society.

1743
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 2: I hear gorvid all by the.

1744
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 1: Way, yes, yes, by the.

1745
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:12,599
Speaker 2: Way, he was right about so many thanks Chuck.

1746
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:16,719
Speaker 1: I know he was right. Sometimes.

1747
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 3: He was the first person that I ever I ever

1748
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 3: heard the word empire, the phrase American empire. It was

1749
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:24,519
Speaker 3: the first person who sat it on.

1750
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 2: TV, PBS and I was like, what the hell has

1751
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:27,760
Speaker 2: he talking about.

1752
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:32,839
Speaker 3: Gormondelle told me, right that the Philippines was the first

1753
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:35,639
Speaker 3: experiment in the building of the American Empire before any

1754
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 3: American has history books told me right, America took the

1755
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:42,599
Speaker 3: Philippines right. And so when people ask me when I'm

1756
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 3: in places that don't want me to be there, I

1757
01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:46,360
Speaker 3: remember I was at this event in North Carolina and

1758
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 3: I said, there's about three million Filipinos in America, one

1759
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:52,559
Speaker 3: point five million in California alone. And he goes, why

1760
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:55,880
Speaker 3: are there so many of you here? And I said, well,

1761
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:58,479
Speaker 3: you know, sir, we are here because you were there.

1762
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 3: If you could come take the Philippines in eighteen ninety eight,

1763
01:36:03,479 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 3: why can't we come here now?

1764
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: We just didn't choose to make the Philippines a state,

1765
01:36:08,120 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: and we chose to make the Hawaiian Islands a state,

1766
01:36:10,120 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 1: right like you just who knows? Yeah, well, we had

1767
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 1: a similar relationship with Cuba in that ship and that's same,

1768
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:22,439
Speaker 1: you know, where there was every chance Cuba could have

1769
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 1: been a state after the Spanish American War.

1770
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:30,120
Speaker 3: And however, things are the kind of conversations now I

1771
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 3: have to tell you because I have to be optimistic.

1772
01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:32,600
Speaker 2: I know you said that.

1773
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 3: You know, look, cynicism, sarcasmal citizensm was part of my

1774
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:39,720
Speaker 3: journalism one on one lesson, so I totally get that.

1775
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:40,760
Speaker 2: Thankfully.

1776
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:43,760
Speaker 3: I'm also a student of James Baldwin right, who believes that,

1777
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:47,800
Speaker 3: you know, I have to be idealistic. I have to

1778
01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:49,680
Speaker 3: believe that we can do better than what we.

1779
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 2: Are and I am.

1780
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:56,759
Speaker 3: I'm a home school that we as a new media

1781
01:36:56,880 --> 01:37:04,959
Speaker 3: ecosystem presents itself that people's curiosity right the country?

1782
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 2: Are we keep saying word a civil war and fushion

1783
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:09,080
Speaker 2: all of those things?

1784
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:14,040
Speaker 3: Is it? Whoever's watching this, whoever, you have a responsibility

1785
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:17,720
Speaker 3: not only to yourself but to people around you. Do influence,

1786
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:22,559
Speaker 3: educate each other, like that's the job. That's actually, that's

1787
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 3: a job that you have as an American, whether or

1788
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:25,479
Speaker 3: not you have papers.

1789
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:27,559
Speaker 1: Well, we just you know, it's funny with citizenship and

1790
01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: I think that unfortunately, or you know, it's one of

1791
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 1: the most interesting phenomenons in the Trump era that I

1792
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 1: think tells us tells me something about are our relationship

1793
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: to our citizenship? Is it took Donald Trump getting elected

1794
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 1: for voter turnout to go up, And it turns out

1795
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:56,840
Speaker 1: that apathy is a sign voter apathy is a sign

1796
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:03,320
Speaker 1: of comfort, you know. And it's interesting to me that

1797
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:05,639
Speaker 1: we've had our three of three of our highest turnout

1798
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:09,679
Speaker 1: elections and midterms and presidentials are all during since Donald

1799
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:13,640
Speaker 1: Trump came on board. So there's always been a part

1800
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 1: of me that says, Okay, this should mean more people

1801
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 1: are taking citizenship seriously serious duties and there's something to build.

1802
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:25,479
Speaker 1: That's the optimism I take that there's something to be

1803
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:29,200
Speaker 1: from there. More people are trying to engage. The question

1804
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: is can we break through some of these bubbles to

1805
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 1: educate them? And that's the challenge. Yes, anyway, I could

1806
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:42,160
Speaker 1: keep going, but I fear that we would not get

1807
01:38:42,200 --> 01:38:43,360
Speaker 1: anything one for the rest of the y.

1808
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:44,880
Speaker 2: I think we're out of time.

1809
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:47,920
Speaker 3: I mean, there is one thing I want to say,

1810
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:50,280
Speaker 3: which is and I'd be remiss if by didn't say this.

1811
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 3: You know, journalism is my only church. It's a church

1812
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:55,719
Speaker 3: I've been praying to since I was seventeen years old.

1813
01:38:56,439 --> 01:39:01,240
Speaker 3: And I think we as journalists have a job to do,

1814
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,439
Speaker 3: you know, at this moment, and I think as much

1815
01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 3: as possible to rise up to that location. And I

1816
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 3: think we're seeing people do that I think we're seeing,

1817
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:13,240
Speaker 3: we're seeing examples of that happening.

1818
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:14,000
Speaker 1: M hm.

1819
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,800
Speaker 3: And I guess my only request is for all of

1820
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 3: you watching this who cover immigration in one way or

1821
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:21,839
Speaker 3: the other.

1822
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 2: Like.

1823
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 3: I think leading with we're dealing with people, We're dealing

1824
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 3: with human beings.

1825
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 2: We're dealing with this is actually the issue.

1826
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:34,200
Speaker 1: Don't dehumanize the issue.

1827
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:37,840
Speaker 3: They don't don't contribute to that, don't subscribe to that.

1828
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 3: Don't just call him a border star and not what

1829
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:44,160
Speaker 3: quotation marks around it. This is not a real job.

1830
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 3: I saw this in the New York Times today. I

1831
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:48,559
Speaker 3: was like, I almost like, wait, wait did I did?

1832
01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 3: I just see that?

1833
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 2: Who am I going to?

1834
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:53,720
Speaker 3: Like? We all have a job to do here, and

1835
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:56,640
Speaker 3: we owe it to ourselves into the history of this

1836
01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 3: country to actually live up.

1837
01:39:57,880 --> 01:39:58,400
Speaker 2: To that job.

1838
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: There's another way to put it, which is I'd rather

1839
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:03,880
Speaker 1: live in a country that people wanted to come to,

1840
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: not live in a country where everybody wants to leave.

1841
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:11,559
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

1842
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:17,000
Speaker 1: It's terrific, Dear America. You updated it there.

1843
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:20,760
Speaker 2: It is there. It is document to look at it.

1844
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:22,960
Speaker 1: We're like living in through the through the looking glass.

1845
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:25,720
Speaker 3: But that is not that is not my fingerprint. It

1846
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:27,879
Speaker 3: was that was a step too far from my lawyers.

1847
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:30,000
Speaker 1: Like I love the fact though, well because you don't

1848
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:31,680
Speaker 1: want somebody to copy it. But see, this is the

1849
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:33,760
Speaker 1: journalist that you are. You are going to make sure

1850
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:36,800
Speaker 1: to fact check right to the end, to the very end.

1851
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:38,360
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1852
01:40:38,680 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure, Thank you. Thanks all right. I told you,

1853
01:40:51,320 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: I just I I look forward to having more conversations

1854
01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:56,880
Speaker 1: with Jose down the road, and he and I are

1855
01:40:56,880 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 1: actually going to try to, uh figure out how can

1856
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 1: we do collectively, you know, some best practices on reporting

1857
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 1: on the issue of immigration, and frankly, just teaching people

1858
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:14,120
Speaker 1: and understanding the immigration process, because guess what it is.

1859
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 1: It is a lot harder and more complicated than I

1860
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:20,639
Speaker 1: think the average American citizen understands. And frankly, I think

1861
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:24,920
Speaker 1: if they knew about it and understood actually how the

1862
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 1: system worked, that'd actually be impressed with it. It's in

1863
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,360
Speaker 1: some ways, there are plenty of Look, our asylum system's broken,

1864
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:37,879
Speaker 1: there's plenty of ways that parts of our immigration enforcement

1865
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,760
Speaker 1: system is broken. But the path the citizenship, you know,

1866
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 1: the only people handing out green cards and citizenship papers

1867
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: with ease is this new law with the Trump administration,

1868
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: where if you're rich enough you can buy citizenship. But

1869
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 1: the way the actual system works is put it this way,

1870
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,000
Speaker 1: it is not easy as easy to scam as people

1871
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:03,439
Speaker 1: want to make you think. All right, let's get into

1872
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:05,280
Speaker 1: a few ass chucks here.

1873
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 2: Ask chuck.

1874
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:13,240
Speaker 1: This next one comes from Corey B. And he writes,

1875
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 1: I've been following the reported tensions between Tucker Carlson and

1876
01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:17,640
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, and I'm curious about your take. Do you

1877
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: think this is a genuine ideological split within the conservative

1878
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: movement or more of a manufactured media moment. Some are

1879
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,559
Speaker 1: calling it a feud, other see it as calculated performance.

1880
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 1: I've always find Carlson a bit hard to pin down.

1881
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:30,720
Speaker 1: Back in his MSNBC days, I found his show at

1882
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:33,479
Speaker 1: least watchable, but over the years I've struggled to identify

1883
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 1: a consistent or coherent worldview behind his commentary. With that

1884
01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:38,160
Speaker 1: in mind, do you see this as a sign of

1885
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 1: deeper fractures on the right or just another episode of

1886
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:41,599
Speaker 1: ongoing political theater?

1887
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:42,920
Speaker 2: Boy?

1888
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:45,280
Speaker 1: What a I mean? I feel like you offered very

1889
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:49,960
Speaker 1: potential answers in your question. You certainly understand this ecosystem,

1890
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:53,920
Speaker 1: and you know, look Tucker is someone that's hard to

1891
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,280
Speaker 1: pin down, and I think it certainly always feels like

1892
01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:01,160
Speaker 1: an act, right is. I'm a huge fan of it.

1893
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:03,160
Speaker 1: I was one of those people that was obsessed with

1894
01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 1: Andy Kaufman. If you know who Andy Kaufman is, he

1895
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:09,640
Speaker 1: was sort of this sort of a comedian, but he

1896
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:13,160
Speaker 1: was also kind of he was sort of a march

1897
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 1: to the beat of his own drummer, if you will.

1898
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 1: And in fact, many people to this day believe he

1899
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 1: faked his own death. And there's there's this great documentary

1900
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:23,479
Speaker 1: I can't wait to watch called Being Andy Kaufman. Frankly,

1901
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's I'm always a sucker for a good

1902
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:29,200
Speaker 1: Andy Kaufman doc or an Andy Kaufman story. You know,

1903
01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 1: did you you know Andy? Did you hear about this one?

1904
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:35,479
Speaker 1: As a certain song might say. So, there's a part

1905
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:38,320
Speaker 1: of me that's thought of that Tucker is all act.

1906
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:40,720
Speaker 1: But it's an act that not all of us will

1907
01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:43,679
Speaker 1: ever be able to understand. That it's a he's living

1908
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:48,160
Speaker 1: this movie that's only in his head, and he's devising

1909
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:52,000
Speaker 1: different scenes, and he plays different characters at different points

1910
01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:57,280
Speaker 1: in time. But you know, look, only Tucker can answer

1911
01:43:57,360 --> 01:43:59,920
Speaker 1: for his actions of who he is. What it could

1912
01:44:00,200 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: very well he's still searching for his own ideology, that

1913
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:05,759
Speaker 1: he doesn't know who he is, that he's always been trying,

1914
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, so I I you know, I can't crawl

1915
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:13,760
Speaker 1: inside his head, but it is it does feel as

1916
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 1: if he's always looking for a manufactured moment, just to

1917
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 1: have the moment, not for some sort of truly intellectual

1918
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 1: challenging reason. So I sort of fall where you fall

1919
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:34,040
Speaker 1: on this. You know, Cruise is somebody I think he

1920
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:37,679
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. Ted Cruz has been trying really

1921
01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: hard to become a MAGA, a mega Republican, and this

1922
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,200
Speaker 1: debate over Iran, you know, sort of outed him that

1923
01:44:45,240 --> 01:44:48,800
Speaker 1: he's not right. He really is a Bush Republican. He

1924
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:52,639
Speaker 1: is somebody. He might be slightly more culturally conservative than

1925
01:44:53,439 --> 01:44:55,320
Speaker 1: you're sort of Bush Republicans, but when it comes to

1926
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,679
Speaker 1: economic policy, when it comes to national security, he really

1927
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 1: is a George W. Bush republic the person he worked

1928
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:03,960
Speaker 1: for in two thousand. I used to joke that there

1929
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: was a part of me that Ted Cruz just wanted

1930
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:07,680
Speaker 1: to be a senator, just wanted to be president, and

1931
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: the fact if the easiest way to be president was

1932
01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:12,880
Speaker 1: to be a progressive, he'd have done that. If it

1933
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,080
Speaker 1: was to be a conservative, he'd have done that. And

1934
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:17,880
Speaker 1: he's not the only one that you know, by the way.

1935
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 1: I think there are plenty of examples in both parties

1936
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:23,959
Speaker 1: where you might believe that that person was so ambitious

1937
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,280
Speaker 1: that they were just picking what they thought was the

1938
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:31,719
Speaker 1: most expedient ideological lane of the moment. But I don't

1939
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 1: think I think in this case, I don't if that

1940
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:37,479
Speaker 1: was the case in two thousand and He's twenty five

1941
01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:39,640
Speaker 1: years living this character and he is who he is,

1942
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 1: So I do think it was as far as Cruz

1943
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:50,360
Speaker 1: was concerned, a genuine disagreement with what Carlson was espousing,

1944
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 1: when I just don't know how serious Tucker is, right.

1945
01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:58,160
Speaker 1: Is he just taking the opposition view just to do it?

1946
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:02,600
Speaker 1: Is he truly a libertarian isolation? Is he maybe? Or

1947
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:05,439
Speaker 1: is he just being a contrarian to be a contrarian? Right? So,

1948
01:46:08,080 --> 01:46:13,519
Speaker 1: but look, it all depends. Is MAGA an ideological movement

1949
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:18,639
Speaker 1: or is it just is it really just the cult

1950
01:46:18,680 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 1: of Trump? Right? And I certainly don't think Tucker views

1951
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:25,600
Speaker 1: himself as a member of the cult of Trump, but

1952
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:28,160
Speaker 1: I think he loves the fact that Trump annoys so

1953
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:31,599
Speaker 1: many people he doesn't like, which is why he sort

1954
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 1: of gravitates back to Trump every time you think he's

1955
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:39,599
Speaker 1: about to go away from that coalition. So, you know,

1956
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:42,559
Speaker 1: I you know, at the end of the day, I

1957
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:45,600
Speaker 1: think it was the interview felt more like it was

1958
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:52,680
Speaker 1: manufactured to be entertainment. I think Cruz didn't think he

1959
01:46:52,800 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 1: was going to get the treatment that he got, which

1960
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm surprised by because this is not a new way

1961
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:02,200
Speaker 1: for Tucker to behave. He's sort of enjoys sandbagging people

1962
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,800
Speaker 1: that don't expect to be sandbagged. It's sort of I

1963
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:07,320
Speaker 1: think he sees it as part of his identity, if

1964
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:11,719
Speaker 1: you will, so, all right, next question Patrick from the UK.

1965
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 1: An He writes, I'm one of your viewers from the UK.

1966
01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:16,880
Speaker 1: You might have been asked this before and answered the

1967
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:18,720
Speaker 1: question one of the episodes I need to catch up on.

1968
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:22,400
Speaker 1: But when did US politics become supartisan? Is it an

1969
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:24,880
Speaker 1: American thing where you are either team Pepsi or team

1970
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:26,920
Speaker 1: Coca Cola? Here in the UK, I have listened to

1971
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,840
Speaker 1: a former Conservative foreign secretary give credit to the current

1972
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:31,960
Speaker 1: Prime minister for their handling of foreign affairs. There is

1973
01:47:32,000 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 1: also a clip in the House of Commons where a

1974
01:47:33,880 --> 01:47:36,720
Speaker 1: current government minister recognized the work done by former Prime

1975
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:40,360
Speaker 1: Minister Rishi Sunak on a specific issue. I can't imagine

1976
01:47:40,360 --> 01:47:43,519
Speaker 1: that happening in America. In my humble opinion, I think

1977
01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:45,559
Speaker 1: the Star report in nineteen ninety eight was the beginning.

1978
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:47,400
Speaker 1: But I am happy to be corrected. Keep up the

1979
01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:50,400
Speaker 1: good work, Patrick in the UK. You know, Patrick, I've

1980
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 1: gone through this a few times, and I'll just give

1981
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:54,280
Speaker 1: you a short version of one theory I have. I

1982
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:59,000
Speaker 1: actually think it's possible polarization is our normal state in

1983
01:47:59,040 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 1: America because of our two party system. I think we

1984
01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:05,800
Speaker 1: had a multiparty, multi party system, this we wouldn't I

1985
01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:08,559
Speaker 1: don't know if we would seem as as sort of

1986
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:12,320
Speaker 1: polarized as we are. That's, you know, And hopefully you've

1987
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:16,040
Speaker 1: heard my opening monologue and you see where I'm going there.

1988
01:48:16,479 --> 01:48:19,160
Speaker 1: So that's one explanation. The other one that I have

1989
01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:22,519
Speaker 1: is is the type of politics you're describing was sort

1990
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:28,280
Speaker 1: of the norm for the United States from say Harry

1991
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: Truman's presidency through the end of Barack Obama's presidency. But

1992
01:48:34,479 --> 01:48:36,080
Speaker 1: maybe you could say, you know, if we want to

1993
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:39,880
Speaker 1: be cleaner about it, essentially the last half of the

1994
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:43,880
Speaker 1: twentieth century, right, you know, So we'll say forty eight

1995
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:47,760
Speaker 1: to two thousand star reports an interesting you know, but

1996
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 1: you know, you could go back. I could say Watergate

1997
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:53,520
Speaker 1: was the beginning of the right wing sort of grievance

1998
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:59,559
Speaker 1: machine of the anti media mindset. Roger Ayles sort of

1999
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:02,920
Speaker 1: got his start working for Nixon and sort of feeling

2000
01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 1: aggrieved by Watergate and by the Washington Post and the

2001
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 1: whole creation of the liberal media bias campaign slogan was

2002
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:14,960
Speaker 1: started by Roger Ales and that and that world so

2003
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 1: and Roger Stone was a part of that world. And

2004
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:19,559
Speaker 1: these are people that have been obviously really important. So

2005
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:22,960
Speaker 1: this this the seeds. You could argue, we're playing it

2006
01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: all the way back then, or you could go back

2007
01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:29,639
Speaker 1: further with McCarthy and say the seeds were planted back

2008
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:31,840
Speaker 1: during the McCarthy era of the fifties, but it was

2009
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 1: never a majority of the party on that front, not

2010
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:40,599
Speaker 1: until obviously what happened. You know, We're perhaps could argue

2011
01:49:40,640 --> 01:49:44,559
Speaker 1: the economic you know, whether it was the combination of

2012
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:48,120
Speaker 1: the going to war with Iraq under false pretenses and

2013
01:49:48,240 --> 01:49:53,360
Speaker 1: the Great Recession collectively sort of spelled the end of

2014
01:49:54,680 --> 01:49:59,880
Speaker 1: Republican governance, of that of that moderate wing. But I've

2015
01:49:59,880 --> 01:50:02,599
Speaker 1: had of thesis that the Cold War itself kept our

2016
01:50:02,680 --> 01:50:06,840
Speaker 1: politics less polarizing. Right, the fear of the Soviets, the

2017
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:10,040
Speaker 1: fear of the outsiders, it you know, kept the Democrats

2018
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:15,000
Speaker 1: kept you know, they kept their left wing sort of tamed,

2019
01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 1: if you will, and the Republicans kept their right wing tamed,

2020
01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:22,160
Speaker 1: if you will. Right, Like the two bases that we

2021
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:25,720
Speaker 1: see more dominant today, both were much less dominant during

2022
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 1: the Cold War era, and there was sort of this

2023
01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 1: bipartisan agreement that the Soviets had to be confronted. There

2024
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:35,080
Speaker 1: would be disagreements on how to confront them, but there

2025
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:36,800
Speaker 1: was an agreement on how to do it, and you

2026
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:39,600
Speaker 1: had quite a few, you know. We also had ideological

2027
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:42,880
Speaker 1: diversity inside both parties during that fifty year period. There

2028
01:50:42,880 --> 01:50:47,640
Speaker 1: were the liberal Republicans of the northeast, the Southern Democrats,

2029
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 1: this conservative Democrats of the South, the libertarian Republicans of

2030
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 1: the West, and the populist Democrats of the Midwest. And

2031
01:50:57,120 --> 01:50:59,679
Speaker 1: you had these sort of while we weren't a multi

2032
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:03,760
Speaker 1: party system, we had liberal Republicans working with conservative Democrats

2033
01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:07,679
Speaker 1: at times you had libertarian Republicans in the West working

2034
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:11,800
Speaker 1: with the Midwest populists at the time, both sort of

2035
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 1: skeptical of government, so you had more coalitions like that.

2036
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:21,120
Speaker 1: But I looking back now on what we have today

2037
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:25,639
Speaker 1: and how much today's American politics looks like what American

2038
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:29,240
Speaker 1: politics looked like before World War Two, what American politics

2039
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:31,519
Speaker 1: looked like at the last thirty years at post Civil

2040
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:34,680
Speaker 1: War of the nineteenth century, going into the beginning of

2041
01:51:34,720 --> 01:51:36,840
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, and when you start to look at

2042
01:51:36,880 --> 01:51:39,800
Speaker 1: that and you realized how polarized America was in the

2043
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:45,160
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, how polarized America was up through the beginning

2044
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 1: of FDR, how polarized America is today. Is it possible

2045
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:53,040
Speaker 1: the fifty years of the Cold War were essentially the

2046
01:51:53,080 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 1: outlier period of American politics? So anyway, it's a thesis

2047
01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 1: I have. I'm not saying it's my potential answer here

2048
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:04,320
Speaker 1: on that one. Let me take one more question. This

2049
01:52:04,360 --> 01:52:08,200
Speaker 1: one comes from Lance m Hey Chuck Love Listening, keep

2050
01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:10,720
Speaker 1: up the great work. Perhaps I clicked the story and

2051
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 1: now the algorithm sends more the same, But I keep

2052
01:52:12,840 --> 01:52:15,840
Speaker 1: seeing posts on substack about a story of how Starlink

2053
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:18,040
Speaker 1: is tied to possible voting machine tampering in the last

2054
01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:21,200
Speaker 1: presidential election, something to do with backup power supplies for

2055
01:52:21,240 --> 01:52:24,160
Speaker 1: the machine and how they can communicate via starlink satellites.

2056
01:52:24,200 --> 01:52:26,960
Speaker 1: Conspiracy theory. Who knows. I know, I'm not alone scratching

2057
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:28,680
Speaker 1: my head that Trump won all the swing states. Have

2058
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 1: you heard the story? What's your take? Thanks? Lance M Look,

2059
01:52:32,160 --> 01:52:38,200
Speaker 1: I've you know these voting machines are not networked. Okay,

2060
01:52:38,280 --> 01:52:42,440
Speaker 1: they're not networked. There in fact that they're not networked

2061
01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:49,280
Speaker 1: on purpose to prevent this possibility. And they're not networked

2062
01:52:49,280 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 1: by voting district, nor are they networked by state, nor

2063
01:52:52,320 --> 01:52:55,439
Speaker 1: are they networked. In fact, the fact that we have

2064
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 1: such a convoluted system depending on the states you vote in,

2065
01:52:59,560 --> 01:53:03,439
Speaker 1: is actually part of the security and voting. So you know,

2066
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:09,559
Speaker 1: I you know, we went through this in two thousand.

2067
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:12,160
Speaker 1: We went through this in two thousand and four, We

2068
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:14,400
Speaker 1: went through this in twenty sixteen, we went through this

2069
01:53:14,479 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, We're going through this in twenty twenty four.

2070
01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:24,560
Speaker 1: Here's what I will tell you. Close elections breed skepticism

2071
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:27,400
Speaker 1: about the result. Right, you can't believe your side lost.

2072
01:53:28,040 --> 01:53:33,960
Speaker 1: It's so close how could that be? And so, and

2073
01:53:34,040 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 1: I'm also a Knackhems Razor believer, if you will, which

2074
01:53:37,439 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 1: means the simplest explanation is usually the explanation. And I

2075
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:47,559
Speaker 1: also don't believe our government and conspiracies hold up because

2076
01:53:48,280 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 1: there's always somebody that talks, there's always somebody that leaks,

2077
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:54,439
Speaker 1: there's always somebody that brags, there's always the dumb person

2078
01:53:54,479 --> 01:53:58,920
Speaker 1: that's involved, right, which is why, you know, I guess

2079
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:05,160
Speaker 1: you could argue if that the best conspiracies are the

2080
01:54:05,160 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 1: ones we don't know yet, because you know nobody has lead,

2081
01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:13,280
Speaker 1: you could, I guess you could believe that. I don't,

2082
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:19,040
Speaker 1: So I do think this is why you shouldn't. This

2083
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:21,840
Speaker 1: is why we haven't gone internet voting. This is why

2084
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:26,759
Speaker 1: we're so concerned about you know, I think paper ballots

2085
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,439
Speaker 1: are a good check, right, so that you have an

2086
01:54:30,479 --> 01:54:33,680
Speaker 1: ability to audit, and everybody feels like they essentially have

2087
01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:40,280
Speaker 1: a voting receipt, if you will. So this just feels

2088
01:54:40,320 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 1: like somebody not wanting to accept the premise that, yeah,

2089
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:46,200
Speaker 1: more people might have voted for Trump on this one.

2090
01:54:46,240 --> 01:54:49,760
Speaker 1: And if look, I go back to another simple explanation.

2091
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:53,360
Speaker 1: We had a sitting vice president trying to win an

2092
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:56,560
Speaker 1: election when the sitting president had a job rating under

2093
01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 1: forty five percent. There's a reason that we've only had

2094
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:10,800
Speaker 1: one sitting vice president win the presidency directly succeeding a

2095
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:14,000
Speaker 1: president in the last one hundred years, if you will,

2096
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:17,360
Speaker 1: and it's George H. W. Bush. Ronald Reagan had an

2097
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:20,520
Speaker 1: approval rating over sixty percent. Al Gore won the popular vote,

2098
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:22,680
Speaker 1: but he came up short, and Bill Clinton, while he

2099
01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:28,320
Speaker 1: had good job ratings, had bad personal ratings. Joe Biden

2100
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:31,840
Speaker 1: arguably won Obama's third term, but was it Obama's third

2101
01:55:31,960 --> 01:55:35,360
Speaker 1: term or was it a rejection of Trump's leadership on COVID?

2102
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:41,839
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that counts. I just history

2103
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 1: says Harris had no shot because of the circumstances she

2104
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:49,680
Speaker 1: was inheriting, and we're trying to replace an unpopular president

2105
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 1: that she was the running mate with. That alone might

2106
01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:55,760
Speaker 1: have been too much to ask. Forget anything else, forget

2107
01:55:55,760 --> 01:55:58,480
Speaker 1: the short campaign, forget all this stuff. Just trying to

2108
01:55:58,520 --> 01:56:02,560
Speaker 1: accomplish that feat is something that we see is near

2109
01:56:03,320 --> 01:56:07,680
Speaker 1: near impossible for most, if not all, mortal politicians. So

2110
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 1: I think you sort of if you look at the

2111
01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:15,120
Speaker 1: larger circumstances around this election, you realize, oh, that's why

2112
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:18,000
Speaker 1: we got the result that we got. So I appreciate

2113
01:56:18,040 --> 01:56:23,160
Speaker 1: the question. I understand the and I think sometimes when

2114
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 1: you don't like what you see, you want to believe

2115
01:56:25,040 --> 01:56:27,560
Speaker 1: that there had to be a mistake, be there has

2116
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: to be a better explanation for this. We're a diverse country,

2117
01:56:32,360 --> 01:56:36,080
Speaker 1: and I do believe the following. We've not elected, proactively

2118
01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:39,840
Speaker 1: elected a president that we've wanted since Obama away. The

2119
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 1: presidents that we've had since have been have won because

2120
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 1: of who they weren't, not because of who they were,

2121
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:49,880
Speaker 1: and I think that's the situation we find ourselves in

2122
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:54,000
Speaker 1: yet again. All right, Well with that, I appreciate all

2123
01:56:54,040 --> 01:56:57,240
Speaker 1: those questions. Keep them coming. We've got a whole bunch.

2124
01:56:57,320 --> 01:57:00,560
Speaker 1: Keep them, keep them coming. I enjoy this. Remember ask

2125
01:57:00,640 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 1: Chuck at thechucktodcast dot com. That's how you can directly

2126
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:08,400
Speaker 1: email me, or you could simply drop a little line

2127
01:57:08,440 --> 01:57:12,320
Speaker 1: in YouTube comments, send us an Instagram direct message, send

2128
01:57:12,320 --> 01:57:17,200
Speaker 1: me an X direct message, comment on TikTok, however you

2129
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:20,840
Speaker 1: want to do it. We are every LinkedIn you name

2130
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 1: the social media platform, and we've got you covered. And

2131
01:57:24,120 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 1: you've got a way to contact us and ask a question.

2132
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 1: So with that, I'm only going to take a twenty

2133
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:32,840
Speaker 1: four hour break. I'll be uploading again then. So until

2134
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:33,600
Speaker 1: we upload again