WEBVTT - Cruising 301 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.800 Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.119 queer sex. Filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.399 If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.960 offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.880 discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids. 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.360 Put your pussy up, put your put your pussy up, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.720 Put your pussy up. Put put your pussy. Welcome to 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.520 Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. I'm Gabelon Sadez and I'm christtison Rosso. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.640 Each week we explore the sublime world of queer sex, cruising, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.240 and relationships. We talk to queer folks of all kinds. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.040 We'll ask some questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.640 and provide practical advice that you can use at home. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.200 Jo the put put Joe, pussy, put job, put put 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:49.320 your put, put. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.479 Your put up. So Chris, so game, what are we 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.000 chatting about today? Oh gosh, we're doing a deep dive 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.880 I think, and even deeper dive. Yeah, into cruising, into cruising. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.680 That's right, this is gonna be our cruising through a 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.640 one episode. But Chris I feel like at this point 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.039 we should be experts. I mean, I came into this 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:09.840 kind of our radio as an expert. I see, yes, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.480 so brilliantly stated in season one. Yeah they have. They 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.760 watched me in action, Chris. 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.920 Is mech cranes like an owl when we pass people 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:19.319 on the street. 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:21.280 I'm like, if that's not commitment to the art form, 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.360 I don't know what is. I'm wondering. Though. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.479 We host a podcast called Cruising Confessions. We have done 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.920 two episodes on cruising. Yes, we should be experts on paper, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.200 but I feel like there's still a law for us 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:33.600 to discuss. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.919 For sure, And I'm always a student, so I'm always 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:36.880 willing to learn more. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.399 If you have listened to this podcast, as we mentioned, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.800 for the past two seasons we've covered cruising, you might 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:43.920 have heard our Cruising one on one episode with Lee 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.600 Horrera who we love, and are cruising two to one 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.160 episode with Professor Joel Florencio, who we lovingly call Professor 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:51.800 pig Well. 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.000 Today, students, it's time for another lesson. That's right, the 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.160 bell has rung. Cruising through a one begins now and 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.480 your professor for today's class, incredible Alex Espinoza. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.960 I am so excited about this guest. Alex's twenty nineteen 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.560 book Cruising is a pretty essential read for anybody interested 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.120 in learning the history of cruising, but it also offers 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.000 uniquely personal insights into his experiences being a queer, disabled 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:17.560 Latino in cruising spaces. 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.000 On today's episode, we're going to be talking with Alex 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.720 about what he learned about himself and cruising while writing 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.440 his book, how things have changed since it's writing, and 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.640 get some practical tips for queer cruises of color. Please 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.680 welcome to Sniffley's Cruising Confessions. Alex Espinoza. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.359 Thank you for having me. It's great to be here 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:34.920 with both of you. 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.480 So excited, SOULEI, thank you for being here. I'm really 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:38.680 sexy that you hear. We both are. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:40.920 We're a huge frend of the book and we're so 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:42.840 happy that you're hear from California. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.000 Right all the way from Los Angeles. 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.200 Amazing. Thanks for making the track. How's the weather hot? 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:48.760 But you know where it's really hot? 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:53.800 Where on Sniffy's Oh? I love that? 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:58.040 Are you an Avid Sniffy's user in La define Avid? 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.000 Okay, I do have a profile? 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.640 Okay? Is its profile or is it an anonymous. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:04.400 It's a registered profile. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.359 Okay, you're like, yeah, the photos I. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:09.120 Put the work in. I don't mess around when it 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.440 comes to that. 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:12.720 Well, if there's one thing we take seriously, it's cruising, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:15.079 Yeah exactly. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.000 But if people want to be anonymous, that's completely fine also. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.040 All right, So before we dive too much into our 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.359 personal cruising practices, I do want to kind of start 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:25.239 us off big picture. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:26.840 I don't want to talk about your book Cruising. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.400 It has become one of the major go tos for 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.399 anybody interested in learning about cruising. When you started writing it, 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.400 what was sort of the inspiration behind it, and was 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:37.600 the reaction what you expected. 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.440 I wasn't looking to write a book about cruising. That 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.920 was the last thing I was looking to do. But 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.560 I just happened to be having a conversation with my 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.160 editor at the time, and I was talking about how 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.680 I felt as though I think the literary landscape when 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:54.480 it came to queer writing at the time was a 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.160 little too polite. I think it was catering to a 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.360 non queer lens. And I kept saying, like, why can't 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.600 we go back to that era of sixties writers like 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:08.360 John Reshie or Jim Grimsley, who were writing very unapologetically 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.440 about sex and body fluids and just everything right. That 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.240 was my entree into queer literature. And then my editor 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.920 and her partner took me out to lunch one day 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.240 and they cruised me. Actually, they said, we think that 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.039 you have it in you to write a book about cruising. 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:26.760 You got professionally cruised. I did. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.800 I got professionally cruise. And I thought about it and 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.240 thought about it and thought about it, and I think 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.400 the reason why I said yes to it was because 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.440 I really wanted to bring in the perspective of not 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.640 just a queer person of color, but a queer person 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.800 of color with the disability. And I said, you know, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:44.480 that's an angle that I think I can I can 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.279 lend to it. That was the genesis of the book. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.120 And I knew that when I was going to write it, 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.599 I was going to have to put my own self 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.160 into the book. And I'm like, you know what, I'm 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.039 going to write about my first experience. I'm going to 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:57.840 write about, you know, these sex clubs I've been to. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.520 I'm going to write about all these places, and I'll 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.040 worry about what people think about it. Later, I was 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.520 writing something that was kind of in between scholarship and 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.840 personal memoir because I'm not a scholar, you know, I'm 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.120 not I teach creative writing. And you know, one of 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.000 the things that was important for me were the interviews 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:15.520 that I did with a lot of the men, and 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.360 there were a lot that I didn't include. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:18.039 Wow. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.400 And you know, for all of all of the men 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.240 that I interviewed, what was fantastic was just the complete 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.640 intimacy of the details that they remember from me years ago. 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.760 You know, the color of the tiles in the bathroom 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.279 at their college bookstore, the smell like the they remember, 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.920 you know, the graffiti on the walls and the stalls. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.320 Details that are just like when you're a creative writer, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.440 Like I tell my students, like, that's the shit that 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:47.240 I want you pulling. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.440 Yeah, right, and they had it all. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.599 I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.119 that because I had denied that for so many years. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.480 I'd been you know, participating in it and doing it 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.120 and feeling really ashamed and you know, carrying this cross, 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.880 feeling like I'm the only one that's like this, you 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:08.880 know muro in Spanish. And then I have these conversations 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.240 with these men and they were like, no, I did too. Yeah, right, 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.039 And it was revelatory. You know, it was revelatory for me. 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.160 So it was a really fantastic experience. 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.680 Well, now, Cochino Pig is quite empowering. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:22.560 It's very empowered. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:31.960 I was like, everybody's acino, everyone everyone's So I'm curious. 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:33.760 Take us back to sort of the beginning of your 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.000 first encounters with cruising. Did you find cruising or did 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:37.640 it find you? 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.359 Oh, it found me? Tell me about that it found me. 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:42.400 And I included this in the book. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.240 I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley in the 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:52.320 nineteen eighties in La the youngest of eleven. Wow right, 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.240 I know that's the reaction. And you know, hyper catholic. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.080 I was born with the disability, very insecure. I have alopisia. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.360 At a time when I think, you know, a lot 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.400 of us are are coming into our own and discovering 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.320 our urges and our desires, my body was starting to 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.240 betray me and it was, you know, losing my hair. 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.160 And I was an athletic. I couldn't do a lot 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.400 of the things that my peers were doing. I knew 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.520 that I was gay, and I knew that. You know, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.480 I liked men. I remember being very attracted to Harry 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.600 chests because I don't have. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.160 Hair, what you don't have. I worked at the mall. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.040 It was my first job, and I was sixteen years 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.920 old and I was waiting at the bus stop. I 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.720 was going to the mall to get my paycheck. And 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.840 this guy in a white Hyundai Excel, say, there are 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:45.680 the details again. 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:46.040 I was. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.520 El hatchback blue interior. Still remember all this. 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.280 Drove by and pulled up to the bus stop, looked 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.760 at me and drove away. And he had spiky hair, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.200 I remember, and he was wearing a like a teal 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:05.080 colored tank top. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:12.480 This was the eighties. Yeah, I mean it's like total 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:13.160 Miami vice. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.600 And he drove by and looked at me and then 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.160 drove away, and then drove by again and did the 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.920 same thing. And I was I had a walkman. I 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.840 was listening to my Smith's cassette. Yeah okay, And he 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.720 drove by. The third time, he pulled over and pretended 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:30.480 to check the tire. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:31.800 Oh wow. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.280 He walked around and like kicked it and then looked 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.440 at me and then drove away. And the fourth time 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.480 he pulled over and he said, do you want to ride? 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:40.360 Oh? 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.880 And I looked at him and I said yes. And 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.079 the minute I said yes, I knew exactly what was 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.440 going to happen. And he took me to a field 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.160 and you know, we did our thing. I remember, he 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.680 didn't drive me all the way to the mall. He 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.840 just left me at another bus stop, which I thought 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:57.560 was kind of shitty. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.200 That damn after I did what I did the least 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:01.880 I could. 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.320 You know, I mean, come on, I that was a 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.840 pretty good blow job. Say, it was my first, and 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:09.200 I knew exactly what I was doing. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.560 Yes, it was just instinctual. 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:11.880 Yeah. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.560 And I was like, and he didn't even drop me off. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.079 Damn them all. He didn't leave me in front of the. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:17.640 Well maybe he did have is shoes with the tire 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.320 you never No, I don't know. 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:20.400 The tire looked fine to me. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.640 And then the funny thing is he said to me, hey, 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.240 if you know, if you have any other friends, oh, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.240 just let them know I'm usually at the park. So 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.720 I was like, okay, And then I take the bus 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.080 and I get I get to work. And I had 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.959 one gay friend back then. He was this Filipino guy, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.800 named Ed, and Ed was very out and very proud 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:46.000 and very flamboyant, and d used to cruise and I was, 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:47.800 you know, it's my first time. It was I was 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:52.440 a virgin and I said to Ed, Oh my god, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.920 you're not gonna believe what just happened to me. I 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.000 said what, And I said, I looked up with this 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.920 guy and it was so hot and he had a 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.480 huge dick and stopped me goes, wait a minute, was 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:05.440 he in a white Hyundai? 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.280 No? 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:07.559 No? 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.839 And I said yes, and he looked at me and 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.000 said it wasn't that big. So that was my entre. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.360 Oh wow. 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.640 And then after that it just it was like this 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.960 homing beak And that was kind of my first cruising experience, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.520 was that. And you know the strange thing is is 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.320 I still remember how just instinctual it was like it 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.360 was like this part of my DNA, you know, it 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:39.120 was like a mutant power that was lang dormant inside 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.840 of me, that like sprang Forth, And the moment that 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.640 that happened, I realized that there was this whole other world. 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:47.600 It was like almost like. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:52.240 A parallel world that existed outside of the norm that 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.480 I could enter into and exit whenever I wanted, and 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:56.960 I felt like that was really powerful. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.240 It is kind of funny how instinctual it always let's 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.000 it sort of rust happened, Like I think about my 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.760 first cruising experience and it was just instinctual. Like I 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.440 don't know, I guess we're just born queer. 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.040 I mean, it's funny the way the body responds when 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.280 you're like, oh, something feels good, right, especially after years 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:14.719 of being told these are the people you should be 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.640 attracted to. It's like I tried making out with a 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.600 girl in the sixth grade, Like it felt weird, and 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.280 then the first time I kissed the boy, I was like, oh, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:21.960 what's that like? 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:22.240 You know what? 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:22.800 I like? 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.080 You just cut your body is gonna give you the 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:26.320 cues and you pick them up. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.000 Yeah, I kissed ahead a lettuce once. That's what it 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:29.960 felt like kissing a girl. 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.520 Oh for me, Wait, I didn't. I didn't like make 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.160 out with the head of lettuce, but like I kissed 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:34.719 it on a dare. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.520 Yeah, but how did this come about? That? 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.000 That's a whole lot of stuff, Chris. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.560 We've watched people fuck pumpkins. I think kiss lettuce. Yeah, 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.240 I think we're going to be fine. Yeah. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.680 Well, I mean, I will say I'm kind of shocked 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.200 that you had your first cruising experience in the Los 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.160 Angeles area because I grew up in Florida. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:55.240 That's a heavy driving. 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:56.960 There weren't a lot. 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.240 Of places to be outside and walking. 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.160 Yeah, and it was for me, it became a very 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.600 different experience when I started driving, you know, when I 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.520 and then you know, back then, it was all word 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.240 of mouth, you know. It was it was my friend Ed, 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:16.360 you know, Size Queen and my friend Eric who you 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.560 know who. They were the ones that would would tell me, like, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.720 there's this alley, you know. I mean, it was like 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.000 West Hollywood, or it. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:23.720 Was Griffith Park. 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.600 You had to go to these places, and rarely did 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.880 it happen spontaneously. We didn't have you know, apps, and 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.640 we didn't have you know, you know, the access to 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.920 the technology that we have now, So it was a 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.000 very different kind of experience. It was really spontaneous and 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.960 it could happen, you know, any time in any place. 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.959 I think now we're seeing cruising taking on a new form. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:50.920 You know, a lot of the conversations I've had with 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.880 men over the years since the publication of the book, 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:55.920 is you know, there are the purists to say, no 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.480 cruising is you know this, it's it's pre Internet, it's 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.840 you know, it's going to you know, a Macy's bathroom 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.719 and waiting or attacking your foot. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.400 Or it's this or that. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.160 And I think I'm of the mind where it's just 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.800 it's evolving into something different, you know, it's it's just 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:12.880 becoming a new thing. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.200 So, as a brown man living with a disability, what 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.599 has been your experience navigating queer or social spaces. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.120 I grew up in a time when, again and in 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.120 a culture, in a gay culture where it was all 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.520 about looks. I remember West Hollywood in the eighties and nineties, it. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:30.760 Was all about looks. 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.200 It was all about you know, the hard bodies and 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.240 the great hair and the you know, all of those things. 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.440 It was very superficial. I always felt like I was 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.800 the ugly duckling of my group of friends where we 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.079 would go to these clubs in West Hollywood. We're all 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.120 like closeted, you know, Mexican queers. We'd get in the 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.280 car and we'd drive to West Hollywood and we go 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.920 party and they would always get invited to dance, and 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.319 I was always the one sort of against the wall, 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.080 just like watching and like like drinking, you know, a 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.720 cocktail or something. And so I never felt comfortable in 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.640 those spaces. I felt very insecure. I didn't know what 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.720 to do with my body. And it wasn't until I 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:12.400 started cruising that I realized that physically below the belt 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:13.400 I was special. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.320 And yeah, and let's. 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:21.720 Say ED would have given you a good would have 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:23.160 given me a great review. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.360 And so it wasn't until I was like, oh, I 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:34.080 get it now. So my confidence grew in no penitent 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.080 it grew enormously, and so I realized that I could 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:44.320 wield power, that my disability didn't matter, that I could 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.960 you know, use it as a way to gain confidence. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.920 So it was a really unique and strange and wonderful 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.320 experience for me that that taught me a lot about 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.320 myself and my body. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:54.840 You know. 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.360 It was it was okay if I went to the clubs. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.400 And wasn't looked at because I looked at certain or 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.000 I had hair or this or that, but you know, 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.560 you'd look at me if we were in another environment, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.720 you know, and then some so I kind of was 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.720 able to walk between those two worlds right in a 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.360 way that my friends couldn't. I felt incredibly empowered and 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.000 very special. But it took me a long time. It 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.200 took me years and years and years of soul searching 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.320 to be proud of the fact that I was a 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.880 sexual person, and that I could be a sexual person 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.440 with the disability, that I didn't have to be this 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.120 sort of like, you know, very humble and very I'm 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.320 so sorry, you know, please give me any kind of 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.080 affection or attention that you feel that you can throw 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:41.880 at me. I was like, no, fuck that It was 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.280 my sexual experiences that taught me how to be confident 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.760 and how to walk a little more proudly in this world. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.400 The minute I realized that that was the moment I 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.680 met my partner of twenty five years. Was that moment 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.960 I realized, like, Okay, I'm good with who this person is. 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.840 And that was in like two thousand, so. 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.600 Alex we talked a bit about how these hierarchies are 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.680 formed in kind of public facing queer spaces, right standing 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:07.440 by the wall at the club, waiting for the muscle 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.920 guy in West Dollywood to come grab you. How are 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:16.840 these hierarchies functioning or maybe torn apart in queer cruising spaces. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:18.360 In cruising spaces, and a lot of men that I 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.920 talked to is people assume different roles and kind of 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.920 exaggerate them. You know, you can subvert these roles in 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.760 ways that you can't in regular society. You know, if 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.320 you're a brown person, if you're you know, a bus 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.440 boy or you know, a gardener, and that's all that 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:37.320 society sees you. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.280 In these cruising spaces, you can become somebody else. You 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.080 can totally flip the script. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.400 It was I guess it was that was the first 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.320 time I learned that that there was a kind of 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.040 a kink to it. I remember doing that thinking it 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.680 was really hot and I liked doing it, but I 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.160 didn't I didn't have the language back then to be 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.600 able to articulate it. It wasn't until I became educated, when 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.800 I when I went to school and I learned about 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.480 things like hierarchies and those big buzzwords that we used 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.600 to use in academia that I realized like, oh, that's 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.439 what I was doing in these anonymous spaces and these 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:11.480 spaces where you don't exchange names. You see how these 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.280 notions of flipping scripts and and and and playing off 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.480 of each other and and donning a persona really play 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.040 out in fundamentally potent ways that they don't, you know, 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.919 in other spheres. When I was in graduate school and 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.840 as an undergrad and then realizing I know exactly what 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:30.679 that is. Oh yeah, because you know I hooked up 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.240 with that guy and he was white and he made 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.760 me do this, and you know I was just brown 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:37.240 Mexican and he wanted me. You know, it's like, I'm 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.439 proof that you can walk in those spaces and assume 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.560 that role and dominate in ways that society tells you, 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.159 as a poor brown kid you're not supposed to. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.520 I think there's something that you were kind of hinting 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.359 at when you told us that story about that kind 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.120 of aha moment where you're like, I've got a big 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.439 dick and it's valued in this space, and it teaches 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.040 you to value more of yourself besides facer dick. Right, 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.119 But it does seem like it's not like going to 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.919 the bar and waiting by the wall and being like, oh, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.960 I hope the haughty picks me. It's looking looking back 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.000 and gestures and like pointing the eye to our areas 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.560 you want to highlight. Right, there are different ways that 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.080 you can kind of make the approach when cruising that 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:16.320 you can again, you know. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.600 What it is, it's like, fuck the hot you picking me, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:19.880 I'm gonna pick you right. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.479 It's not a question of whether you want me, It's 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.960 a question of whether I want you. Yeah, and you 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.000 know what, You're gonna want me? 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.320 Yeah, because wait till you pull my till I see 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.360