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Speaker 1: Hes it is Monday, March sixteenth, and she wanted to

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Speaker 1: leave her husband, but she didn't want to leave her

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Speaker 1: husband's money, so she had to kill him. That is

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Speaker 1: the crux of the argument in the closing argument with

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Speaker 1: the prosecution and the so called grief author murder trial.

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Speaker 1: With that, welcome to this episode of Amy, and TJ

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Speaker 1: said grief author murder trial. Some call it the poisoned

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Speaker 1: husband murder trial. But at this point, I guess folks

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Speaker 1: know what we talk about.

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Speaker 2: Bro Yes, if you have been following our feed, you are,

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Speaker 2: or at least I'm assuming you are up to speed

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Speaker 2: on thirty five year old Corey Richins, whose life is

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Speaker 2: at stake, who's freedom is at stake. She is charged

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Speaker 2: with aggravated murder, attempted murder, a bunch of other financial

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Speaker 2: crimes because prosecutors say she poisoned first, she tried to

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Speaker 2: poison her husband, and then successfully poisoned her husband with

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Speaker 2: fentanyls spiking his moscow mule. These are the closing statements

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Speaker 2: from the prosecution, and they paint a pretty nasty picture.

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Speaker 2: You've been back and forth about a potential hung jury

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Speaker 2: or wonderer who might feel like the defense did a

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Speaker 2: good job poking some holes in some of the defense's

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Speaker 2: key witnesses. But after you heard that closing argument by

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Speaker 2: the district attorney, you were singing a different tune.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And then when I hear the defense closing argument,

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Speaker 1: I'll be back on the other side. It's just how

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Speaker 1: it goes. It's what lawyering does, and this is what

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Speaker 1: they're supposed to do. But I heard a couple of

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Speaker 1: things from him. I'm not a big circumstantial evidence kind

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Speaker 1: of a guy. It's hard for me to understand putting

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Speaker 1: somebody in prison the rest of their lives without a

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Speaker 1: smoking gun, if you will. But I get it. This

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Speaker 1: guy said a couple of things in closing that made

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Speaker 1: complete sense to where I'm like, well, duh, you think

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Speaker 1: I'm stupid. We obviously he put a case together that

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Speaker 1: you and I were, you know, given he's not a

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Speaker 1: very animated guy, not a fire.

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Speaker 2: No, he's not a theatrical performer. We see a lot

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Speaker 2: of defense attorneys, even more so than prosecutors. Defense attorneys oftentimes,

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Speaker 2: especially in high profile cases like this where there is

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Speaker 2: someone's life on the line, you tend to get more

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Speaker 2: animated theatrical types of attorneys that are trying to capture

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Speaker 2: the jury's attention and sell their clients story. That wasn't

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Speaker 2: the case with this prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: No, this, So you and I were wondering, like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I mean the other side with a little more personality,

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Speaker 1: are they going to, you know, outduel him in a

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Speaker 1: closing argument. He has been very methodical and he has

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Speaker 1: finished his closing argument. He'll get a rebuttal at the end.

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Speaker 1: Right now, as we are recording this, the defense is

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Speaker 1: doing their closing argument. But Rohbes he put together and

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Speaker 1: I thought he was almost professorial. He had slides, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I am going to walk you through this

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Speaker 1: case and every single point that you need to check

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Speaker 1: off when you're deciding guilt or innocence. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go through each one of those points and explain to

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Speaker 1: you why, yep, we have met our burden. And at

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Speaker 1: first I thought, oh, this is going to be long

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Speaker 1: and boring, But he built a compelling case.

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Speaker 2: I thought I would agree. And the jury had a

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Speaker 2: lot to process. They had forty two witnesses. That is

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Speaker 2: how many witnesses the prosecution brought to the stand over

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Speaker 2: these past three weeks. And so yes, the DA did

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Speaker 2: an excellent job. I thought of creating a logical outline

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Speaker 2: where you could follow, and that's so helpful. I would

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Speaker 2: imagine as a juror who has processed so much. Yes,

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Speaker 2: they can take some notes, but this is something where

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Speaker 2: it's incredibly helpful to have the person now wrap up

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Speaker 2: all that evidence you just got and bring it home.

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Speaker 2: And that is what the DA did today.

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Speaker 1: Think you said appeal to logic. I like that you do.

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Speaker 1: Some of the stuff just doesn't make sense. Go through

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Speaker 1: a few of the things the prosecutor did talk about

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Speaker 1: in closing. First of all, we set the scene in

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Speaker 1: here ropes. The judge did change. He essentially kicked the

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Speaker 1: public out, not necessarily, but he was trying to make

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Speaker 1: more room for family and friends of the defense of

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Speaker 1: the victim. And so it's a packed house, but it's

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Speaker 1: mostly just people associated with the defense and with the victim.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's members of the media. They have allowed press

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Speaker 2: to be in there and the pool cameras, but short

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Speaker 2: of that, there are no members of the public. There

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Speaker 2: just wasn't enough room. The judge gave each side I believe,

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Speaker 2: twenty four wristbands and said knock yourselves out. You each

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Speaker 2: get to bring twenty four people into the courtroom other

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Speaker 2: than the media. That's it. That was just a level

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Speaker 2: of interest on both sides, on the victim side and

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Speaker 2: on Corey Richard's side.

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Speaker 1: There was one point then again they were close ups

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Speaker 1: today of family members holding hands at one point, but

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Speaker 1: they sowed a close up of Eric Richards had his

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Speaker 1: head down while they were playing a nine to one

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Speaker 1: one call about his son who was dead or dying

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Speaker 1: and the wife dragging her feet and give him CPR

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Speaker 1: and help the dad put his head down. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that nine one one call. But that

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Speaker 1: was a tough moment in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: It was it was pretty damning just to hear it.

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Speaker 2: The coldness and it almost felt like callousness. It was

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Speaker 2: as if he were transported into that room. And yes,

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Speaker 2: as a person who loved Eric Richards, that had to

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Speaker 2: be so difficult.

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Speaker 1: To listen to. You know, since we're there, let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and do that. That was part of what the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor did Robes. He played the nine one one call,

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Speaker 1: But the point he was trying to make, he was

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Speaker 1: very effective in doing something. He was trying to make

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Speaker 1: the point that this does this sound like a woman

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Speaker 1: who is desperate to save her husband's life. So to

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Speaker 1: set the scene, Robes she called nine one one. The

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Speaker 1: nine one one operator is trying to get a couple

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Speaker 1: of answers. Is he breathing and trying to help her?

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Speaker 1: Help him? And the prosecutor did a very effective thing

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Speaker 1: by putting Robes a clock up while playing the nine

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Speaker 1: to one one call, just.

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Speaker 2: To see how long she was dragging her feet. Where

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Speaker 2: you've got the nine one one operator much more concerned

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Speaker 2: and urgent about her getting CPR started than Corey Richins

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Speaker 2: is about actually starting it. And then I thought, which

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Speaker 2: was so effective, from the nine one one call to

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Speaker 2: even the body cam video, he would take the DA

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Speaker 2: would take what Corey Richins testified to or told police,

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Speaker 2: as in I just threw up. I was frantically saying live, baby,

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Speaker 2: live as I was doing CPR. So what she said

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Speaker 2: she did versus what she actually did or more importantly

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Speaker 2: didn't do, And so he was able to basically disprove

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Speaker 2: what she claimed happened in journal entries and what she

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Speaker 2: said to other people versus what actually happened on recorded

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Speaker 2: conversations and recorded video.

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Speaker 1: And this call at least there's a nine one one

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Speaker 1: call that's plague, which was a dramatic playing. It took

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Speaker 1: six minutes because they started the clock from the moment

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Speaker 1: the nine to one one operator said to her, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: I need you to start CPR. The first action she

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Speaker 1: took that was CPR. Ish was six minutes later. Now,

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Speaker 1: Robes as if you haven't heard it, you'd be sitting

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Speaker 1: here wondering, wait a minute, your husband is not responding,

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Speaker 1: he's cold. You can help him until the ambulance gets here.

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Speaker 1: You would be frantic. You would think to save your spouse,

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Speaker 1: Help me, help me, what can I do? That is

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Speaker 1: the position she was in, Robes. How did six minutes

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Speaker 1: go by?

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Speaker 2: She just was crying, saying how shocked she was, how

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Speaker 2: she didn't understand how it happened. It was almost like

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Speaker 2: she was in defense mode to the nine one one

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Speaker 2: operator and crying and incapable of actually doing anything helpful,

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Speaker 2: and certainly not anything that was life saving.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was obvious, Rose, it was I don't

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Speaker 1: even know how think of how long six minutes is.

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Speaker 1: You're sitting here with your loved one who's not responding.

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Speaker 1: How do I help? Why does it take six minutes

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Speaker 1: roll that nine one one call was baffling. And this

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Speaker 1: is where circumstantial evidence, and this is where common sense

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Speaker 1: comes into play. Give me a.

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Speaker 2: Break, exactly. And look, this is often what each attorney

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Speaker 2: is pleading with or at least appealing to on the

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Speaker 2: juror side. If you don't have the smoking gun, you're

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Speaker 2: going to try to appeal to their common sense. And

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Speaker 2: every juror when they're hearing this nine one one call,

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Speaker 2: when they're hearing what prosecutors say she didn't do and

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Speaker 2: what you don't hear her say or do, you're putting

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Speaker 2: yourself in that position and you're imagining it's your spouse,

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Speaker 2: and you're thinking, no way would I not be doing

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Speaker 2: chest compressions right now. Even if I don't know exactly

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Speaker 2: how to do it, I'm gonna try. I got a

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Speaker 2: basic idea. I think everyone knows the beat of staying alive.

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Speaker 2: I just there are some basic things that people understand.

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Speaker 2: And if you're desperate to try and save someone's life,

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Speaker 2: you go and tell.

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Speaker 1: Action there was it was bizarred toy here? What did

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Speaker 1: you think about the it reference referred to.

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Speaker 2: That was so bad? Like the body shed so it's

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Speaker 2: we'll get into the what. The defense said that the

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Speaker 2: DA was dehumanizing their client in that moment, she dehumanized

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Speaker 2: her husband.

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Speaker 1: The quote was, I can't move it. It's just dead

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Speaker 1: to weight. And that was how she was referring to

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Speaker 1: her husband at the time. I can't move him. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: she said, I can't move it, and say he's just

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Speaker 1: dead weight. She said, quote, it's just dead weight. He

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Speaker 1: was making a point of it. I mean, is that

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Speaker 1: a It seemed effective.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it landed. It landed, without a doubt. It landed.

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Speaker 2: That sent chills up and down my spine when I

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Speaker 2: heard that.

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Speaker 1: A couple of points other points that could have landed

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Speaker 1: for him. And again he feels to your common sense here, Robes.

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Speaker 1: The defense has made all big whoopie doo about she

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was fentanyl. She never specifically said fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: That was only until the police got involved. They put

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Speaker 1: fentanyl in these other people's heads, and blah blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. They were trying to make a point here

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Speaker 1: or that they do have evidence that she asked two

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Speaker 1: people full quote the Michael Jackson drug. I thought this

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Speaker 1: was a common sense and no matter how much the

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Speaker 1: fence it's been in your head about this drug, and

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Speaker 1: this is that what does that suggest to you, Robes,

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Speaker 1: If I'm looking for the Michael Jackson drug, what do

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Speaker 1: we know about that drug?

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Speaker 2: We're looking for the drug that killed Michael Jackson. So yes,

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Speaker 2: and something that would have been used to help somebody

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Speaker 2: sleep or maybe somebody who's in pain, or somebody who

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Speaker 2: you could perhaps say wanted it, because we see other

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Speaker 2: people having died by ingesting it willingly. So she's thinking, Aha,

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Speaker 2: I got something that I know will kill my husband,

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Speaker 2: but it could also look like a drug that he

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Speaker 2: would have taken on his own for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: Another dub moment that they pointed out again common sense

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Speaker 1: they're appealing to. There was a form she filled out

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Speaker 1: police after the incident, essentially gave her a standard form saying,

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Speaker 1: write down what happened everything about your evening right trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what happened to him. She started her

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Speaker 1: story with at nine o'clock, we had a drink. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't think much of that necessarily during testimony, but

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Speaker 1: Rose he made a point, why would her story start

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Speaker 1: right there? Because for her that's when the event started.

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Speaker 1: When he had a drink. Why does she know that

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Speaker 1: because she's the one that poisoned him is the point

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Speaker 1: that's being made. And it was like an aha moment.

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Speaker 2: For It's one of those things when you don't realize

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Speaker 2: you're actually giving yourself away without realizing your brain is

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Speaker 2: going somewhere. And that speaks to his next point about

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Speaker 2: her search, because maybe she didn't even realize how she

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Speaker 2: was actually pointing the finger right at herself.

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Speaker 1: These are implicit admissions of guilt. She is admitting guilt

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Speaker 1: the search. I never would have thought anything of it,

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Speaker 1: all right, They say this was one of her searches,

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Speaker 1: Internet searches. If somebody is poisoned, what does it go

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Speaker 1: down on the death certificate? Ass Okay, I've heard about

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Speaker 1: that search. He pointed something out about one word in

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Speaker 1: that search that I swear to you if I was

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Speaker 1: on the jury, this might be the thing that put

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Speaker 1: me over there.

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Speaker 2: This is what you said to me. Clicked. Why use

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Speaker 2: the word poison? Why wouldn't you say if somebody overdosed

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Speaker 2: on unknown medication? What do you you know? She used

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Speaker 2: the word poisoned as in a verb, as in a

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Speaker 2: criminal act, as in murder, to poison someone is to

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Speaker 2: murder someone, So she she googled a criminal act versus

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Speaker 2: an accidental overdose? Or what could someone take? What if

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Speaker 2: an unknown drug was taken? What would the autopsy shit

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Speaker 2: say if any of those had been the searches, that

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Speaker 2: would be a completely different scenario.

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Speaker 1: Help me, we're poisoned. How can you get around that

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Speaker 1: one like as a common sense and reasonable doubt, I can't.

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Speaker 1: How can you tell me that you know what? She

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Speaker 1: just in the moment wrote google the wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: If I knew I was the one who gave him

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Speaker 2: the drink poisoned, IM sure as hell wouldn't be thinking

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Speaker 2: he was poisoned. I would think what could have been

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Speaker 2: in there that I didn't realize? What could he have

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Speaker 2: accidentally overdosed on? Could he have put something in the drink?

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have used the word poisons. That implies premeditation

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Speaker 2: and intent to kill.

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Speaker 1: Another point here, we heard this Robes. I'll admit I

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Speaker 1: heard them bring this up several times during testimony, but

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Speaker 1: I never harped on it that much. But he brought

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Speaker 1: it home today. She was She asked her the guy

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Speaker 1: she was dating, the boyfriend that she was dating outside

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Speaker 1: of her husband, asked him at one point, he's a

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Speaker 1: former military guy, asked him at one point if he

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Speaker 1: had ever killed anyone, and then asked him how that

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Speaker 1: made him feel. Okay, I heard it during the testimony,

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Speaker 1: but it never really was explained. He landed the plane

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Speaker 1: for me today, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He said. She was actually by asking him. Now, it

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Speaker 2: had been what a couple weeks since Eric Richards had died.

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Speaker 2: She was working through, according to the prosecution, her own

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Speaker 2: feelings about killing him, and she was trying to relate

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Speaker 2: or connect or see how he got through killing someone.

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Speaker 2: She wouldn't have known. Why would she have all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden asked him. They'd been together for years, They've

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Speaker 2: been friends for many, many years. She knew he served

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Speaker 2: in the military, she knew he served in a rock.

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Speaker 2: Why then would she ask him that question? That made

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense to me.

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Speaker 1: It was a matter of the word again killed. You

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Speaker 1: would have asked, hey, how did you feel when you

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Speaker 1: saw a dead body? How did it feel? Did you

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Speaker 1: ever walk in and were surprised by a dead body?

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Speaker 2: Did you see dead? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: That was what you ask You don't ask the kill again.

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Speaker 1: This landed today? He made sense of it in a

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Speaker 1: common sense way that I think this is reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: Is it reasonable for me to look at that? Is

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Speaker 1: it reasonable for to put these things together and say, well,

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Speaker 1: may she meant something else? It's not reasonable exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you can have some doubts because they don't have

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Speaker 2: the smoking gun, because it is a circumstantial case, because

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Speaker 2: you are relying on testimony from somebody who has proven

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Speaker 2: not to be credible. So yes, you do come down

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Speaker 2: to common sense. And he landed his plane, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, But stay here. There was a moment during the

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Speaker 1: closing argument, a moment you don't often see during closing

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Speaker 1: arguments and objection, and the judge didn't even give them

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Speaker 1: time to get it out before he said, sit yo,

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Speaker 1: butt down, stay here. Continuing here on Amy and TJ.

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Speaker 1: Closing arguments are underway as we speak in the Corey

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Speaker 1: Richan's poisoned Husband murder trial or the Grief author murder

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Speaker 1: trial is being called. But as we are recording this defense,

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Speaker 1: closing arguments are underway. The prosecution wrapped up its closing

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Speaker 1: argument a short time ago and wrote something that we

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Speaker 1: do often see. The defense also often takes it takes

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Speaker 1: it shot when it gets a chance, but often when

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Speaker 1: the prosecution rests its case, they'll ask for a mistrial.

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Speaker 1: And today, after they gave their closing argument the prosecution,

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Speaker 1: the defense got up before giving a closing asked for

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Speaker 1: another mistrial. And some of the reasons you certainly found interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well they joked out of me, because look, I

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Speaker 2: know it's common for the defense to try and get

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Speaker 2: every opportunity they can to ask for a mistrial. And

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Speaker 2: I'm always curious to hear the reasons why. Corey Richards

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Speaker 2: attorney had two of them. One of them was that

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Speaker 2: she said the defense attorney dehumanized Corey Richins and she

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Speaker 2: cited some law and I thought, dehumanized her in what way?

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Speaker 2: And then she said he called her a black widow.

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Speaker 2: So she said he called her a spider judge. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that almost became laughable in a moment, and so then

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Speaker 2: the DA had to stand up and say, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: referring to the insect. That wasn't what I was referring to.

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Speaker 2: I was referring to what we all know, a black widow,

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Speaker 2: a wife who kills her husband. That almost became a

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Speaker 2: comical moment at one point. And then she also was

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Speaker 2: upset again saying that the DA was referencing the facial

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Speaker 2: expressions of Corey Richards, and she was so adamant that

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Speaker 2: this was worthy of a mistrial that the judge actually

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Speaker 2: took a beat and said out came back and said,

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Speaker 2: out of an abundance of caution, I will now instruct

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Speaker 2: the jury again to you can consider your own impressions

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Speaker 2: of Corey Richards, but you cannot consider the prosecutor's impressions

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Speaker 2: of Corey Richard's facial expression. So she did at least

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Speaker 2: get an instruction to be reiterated to the jury before

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Speaker 2: she began her.

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Speaker 1: The judge, even when he overrules, he's trying to accommodate

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Speaker 1: everybody the best he can. This is as fair of

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Speaker 1: a referee I have seen in sports or in the

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Speaker 1: judicial system. He has been fantastic.

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Speaker 2: He's been an incredible and incredible judge. And that moment

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Speaker 2: in which there was actually an objection.

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Speaker 1: In the middle, don't get that a lot.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen that in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a closing argument.

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Speaker 1: You could tell he was immediately annoying, like, how dare

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't be this is their chance to talk? Shut up?

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Speaker 1: She got up and she tried to have an objection, Robes,

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Speaker 1: she could not get it out fully. It was clear

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Speaker 1: he did not want he was not interested in hearing

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Speaker 1: and then ruling. He said, overruled, please have a seat

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Speaker 1: in the sternest and straight of voices, sit down and

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Speaker 1: shut up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it has been a contentious relationship between those two,

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Speaker 2: but he has kept it so incredibly civil.

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Speaker 1: Only one side. Yes, he has been as civil as anything.

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Speaker 1: He has never taken any of this stuff personally. And

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Speaker 1: you and I said, wow, he's I would have been

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Speaker 1: I would.

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Speaker 2: Have clapped back, my feathers would have been a little

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Speaker 2: ruffled a couple of times. I will say that. And

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Speaker 2: he has done an incredible job. I like the way

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Speaker 2: you put it of not taking anything personally.

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Speaker 1: This was a line we loved as we wrap up here,

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Speaker 1: Robes the judge, excuse me, the prosecutor, and once again

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Speaker 1: brought it home. It was a simple line about people

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Speaker 1: making up stories. It was a simple line that we said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I ain't that true. And so when you have any

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Speaker 1: question about why is Corey Richins's story not lining up

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Speaker 1: or why is it different? Why has it changed? He

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Speaker 1: brought it all back home and he appealed Robes to

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Speaker 1: our common sense today.

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Speaker 2: Corey Richins is very ambitious.

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Speaker 1: He used that line several times. I liked, I loved that.

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Speaker 1: What do you think? How you think that?

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Speaker 2: Right on? I think that he is painting a picture.

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Speaker 2: He called again, He called her a black widow, said

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Speaker 2: she's very ambitious. They went into great detail about how

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Speaker 2: many millions and millions of dollars she was in debt,

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Speaker 2: and how she was completely in over her head, that

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Speaker 2: she was a desperate woman, that she cared so much

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Speaker 2: what other people thought about her, and that she didn't

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Speaker 2: want to be married, but she wanted to have the

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Speaker 2: means she wanted the life she was living. She just

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Speaker 2: wanted to switch out man and take care of all

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Speaker 2: of her financial problems. And the way she did that

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Speaker 2: was by poisoning Eric Richards.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't remember hearing at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the trial them talking about her upbringing, her background. But

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Speaker 1: he started out talking about her coming up with her

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Speaker 1: mom and having to clean homes of more affluent folks,

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Speaker 1: and they painted this picture of a little girl who

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Speaker 1: grew up desperate for a life she didn't have.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna live in one of these homes one day.

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Speaker 1: Man. That was like, wow, he did he kind of

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Speaker 1: it was a story he did weave. But Rogue's common

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Speaker 1: sense as well. His line, when people make up stories,

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Speaker 1: what was that line? Where is it in front of me?

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Speaker 1: I have it here? I have it here because you

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Speaker 1: and I both looked at it and it's like wow.

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Speaker 1: That's that's when people make up stories are they are

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Speaker 1: inconsistent in the retelling. It's that simple. When people make

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Speaker 1: up stories, they are inconsistent in the retelling. We all

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Speaker 1: know that when you lie, you can't keep your story straight.

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Speaker 1: That's all he was saying.

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Speaker 2: And that's why he was saying. She would write down

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Speaker 2: one thing, say she said another, and then when you

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Speaker 2: actually look at what happened, it doesn't line up because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't true.

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Speaker 1: So this is wrapping up again. As we speak, closing

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Speaker 1: arguments are underway, the defense giving its closing. We do

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Speaker 1: believe the prosecution, which does get an opportunity for a

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Speaker 1: short rebuttal will take that opportunity. So when we get

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Speaker 1: the defense closing statement, we'll hop back on and let

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Speaker 1: you know how they did. But as always we appreciate

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Speaker 1: you sticking with us. I'm TJ holmes On behalf of

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Speaker 1: my dear Amy Robot. We will talk to you soon.