1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians. We are going abroad in this week's 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: classic episode, to northeastern England. I'm Ben your nol And 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: right before we re listened to this episode and recorded this, 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: you and I were looking back at our notes and 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: we immediately said, oh, man, and you said that's a word. 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: I did say that's a word. Folks from Hartpool in 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: northeastern England are apparently referred to as Heartapudlians, much like 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: people from Liverpool are referred to as Liverpudlians, much like 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: people from Lilliput are referred to as Lilliputians. Ben, have 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: you seen the new sort of horror comedy The Monkey. 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: I have. 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: Yes, it was fine. 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: It was a bit final destination coded. 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: Let's just say yeah, yeah, actually you know what I'm 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: going to go on a Wednesday. It wasn't very good. 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: I was not. You know, it's it's making your plused. Yeah, 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: sure I was, because you know, I'm kind of like 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: a Larry David character. So about fifteen minutes in I 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: give every film at least ten to fifteen minutes. Fifteen 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: minutes in I thought, man, I'm not gonna get a 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: refund on it. 22 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: I bought it on Amazon's I paid the price. I 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 2: honestly Ben didn't finish it. But that's neither here nor there, y'all. 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 2: We're not a movie criticism podcast, though we do critique 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: things from time to time. Today we are talking about 26 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: monkeys from Heartlepull hertlepull. 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Yes, Hartleplian monkeys hangers even. Yeah, if you wanted to 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: have fighting words with some people in this part of 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: northeastern England, all you would have to do is walk 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: into the local or the local pub. I guess we 31 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: should say and start calling people monkey hangers. And this 32 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: goes back to the Napoleonic War, classic war. Yes, actually 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: for tacticians and students of you know, war colleges, which 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure a huge demographic for us, along with hungover 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: substitute teachers. Uh, the Napoleonic War. Thank you for the 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: thank you for the shrug there, Maxis. The facts are 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: the facts. Do they have war summer camps? Yeah? They? 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: Oh man, that is actually a great idea for another 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: episode in the future. Noel, we are sharing a story 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: that I think made us both feel kind of bad 41 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm a huge fan of pretty much 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: every animal other than the Honda Odyssey, and uh, I 43 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: don't rank it as a reputable vehicle. But this is 44 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: also the tale of one incredibly unlucky little monkey. 45 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: Man Ah, the unlucky little monkey, that's right, And how 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: the Napoleonic War, a terrified village and said unlucky Simeon 47 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: collided in a ridiculous historical explosion for the ages. 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, 49 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians. My name is Ben. 50 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: You usually do something that you usually do A bit 51 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the show. Threw me for a 52 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: loop there, Ben, do. 53 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: You want a bit? We can? I think I need 54 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: to go back. I need a bit. Okay, guys, journey 55 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: with us back to the beginning. Wait, should we keep 56 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: this all on my Yeah, of course do that. Yeah, 57 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: we need a full time all right. So there's our 58 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: super producer, Casey Pegram. Everybody give him a hand. You guys, 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: we are flying blind today. We are. Here's instead of 60 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: a bit, let's do a bit of background. 61 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: How about that, Ben, that's smart. That is a smart 62 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: use of the word bit. 63 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: So everyone knows where we're coming from right now. 64 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's very important. Setting up the scene is very important. 65 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: So today's scene starts in h well, in France and 66 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 2: Europe in general. I guess in the late seventeen hundreds, 67 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: because you see in seventeen ninety nine Napoleon Bonaparte, remember 68 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: the guy that got formed by cute little bunnies. He 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: overthrew the French Revolutionary government, right, yes, and this triggered 70 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 2: what is known as the Napoleonic Wars. Yeah, because he 71 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: had designs on conquering like everything. 72 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like a more successful William Walker, who 73 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: you'll recall from previous episodes. The Napoleonic Wars occurred between 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: eighteen o three and eighteen fifteen, and this was the 75 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: French Empire led by Napoleon against just a mixtape of 76 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: various European powers voltroning together, usually led by the United 77 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: Kingdom that was the ringleader. 78 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 2: And just just for a little bit of a quick bookkeeping, 79 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: it was in eighteen o two that there was a 80 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: thing called the Piece of Our Means that ended a 81 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 2: decade of war between Great Britain and France. 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: Right right, So things were not particularly stable to begin with. 83 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: When the wars begin in eighteen o three and before 84 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: we go on this is this is gonna be a 85 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: punchy episode, folks. I think that's the word you use. No, 86 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: because when I said a bit of background, I was 87 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: also talking on a meta level about our situation today. 88 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: We are Noel Casey and I are in the studio 89 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 1: for this episode, and then we're going to be here 90 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: into the night making an appearance on a favorite show 91 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: of ours. Behind the Bastards. Should go ahead and plugged 92 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: that and assume that we survived this recording session. Yeah, 93 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: we'll see. 94 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: We're gonna be some punchy characters by the time that's 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: all said and done. But yeah, our buddy Robert Evans 96 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: asked to be on the show, and we thought he 97 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: was joking when he said, yeah, you know, just be 98 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: about three or four hours. 99 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: We're like, okay, you know, we're game. 100 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: But I'll tell you who else was game? Was Napoleon 101 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: for some conquerings? 102 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Yes, no, why don't you walk us through a few 103 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: of these conflicts, because this context is very important to 104 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: today's story. 105 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: Well, the US was actually involved a little bit as well. 106 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: Napoleon got back Louisiana from Spain in eighteen hundred, and 107 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: then he made a brash attempt to overthrow a revolution 108 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: in Haiti, but it did not succeed, and so having 109 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: Louisiana was not a valuable thing without the strategic stronghold 110 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: of Haiti, so he decided to give it back to 111 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: the US in the Louisiana Purchase of eighteen oh three, 112 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: before Great Britain could invade it. 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: Yes, and in addition to this, the British forces were 114 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: increasingly creeped out, irritated, angered, upset, and eventually frightened by 115 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: Napoleon's actions in Europe, right with Switzerland, Germany, Italy and 116 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: the Netherlands. And they were also concerned, as you said, 117 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: that Napoleon might not stop at Haiti, he might become 118 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: a threat to Britain's overseas colonies. 119 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: That's right, because the British had the Royal Navy and 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: they were doing quite a good job of defending their 121 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: shores and French invasion attempts had not gone so well. 122 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: But the tide kind of turned when there were some 123 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: big successes by the French military and the power of 124 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: the British navy started to wane a little bit and 125 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: they really needed to kind of bolster that up. So 126 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: there was a lot of paranoia there would be a 127 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: direct invasion by sea of British territories. And that is 128 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: where our story truly begins with this paranoia and this 129 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: concept of the French are coming. 130 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: Yes, the French are coming. There was a nationwide fear 131 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: that some historians describe as interrational anxiety about Napoleon's motives 132 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: and intentions. They were especially spooked when Napoleon assurded control 133 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: over Switzerland. They thought the French the British. They just 134 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: thought the French could be coming at any given moment. 135 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: And one day, according to the story, or a legend, 136 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: or at the very least alleged story, a French ship 137 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: actually did land in England, but it wrecked. It wrecked 138 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: by an old fishing village named Hartleypool. Yeah, it was like. 139 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: Right there on the beach, and supposedly the heart Pudlians 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: hart Lapulions came running and there were supposedly no survivors 141 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: to this wreck, no humans. Well, oh, man, come on, 142 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: come now, no human survivors to this wreck. But there 143 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: was a little hairy guy who was, you know, in 144 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: fact or in fiction, a monkey. 145 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: Yes, the only survivor of the wreck. There on the 146 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: northeastern coast of England was a very panicked and traumatized 147 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: little monkey who washed ashore miraculously survived. Keep in mind, 148 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: everybody else on the ship drowned, right and the hard 149 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: Lipudlians had never seen a primate like this before. 150 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 2: That is what they say, And according to a source 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: from historicuk dot com, the monkey was possibly dressed in 152 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: a tiny military uniform. 153 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: See, that's that's interesting. I appreciate these say possibly because again, 154 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: there are things about this story. I think you can 155 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: tell by the way we're carefully hedging some of these statements. 156 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: There are things about this story that can't really be proven, 157 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: but we do know internally the logic jibes because the 158 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: monkey's supposed to be a mascot of the ship, right. Yeah. 159 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: But this is the thing, though, Ben, I mean, do 160 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: do all ships have mascots? That's not something I'd ever 161 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: heard of. 162 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: Surely not. 163 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: You carry around like a signature animal, like a familiar. 164 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: No, some military groups have done that. 165 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I guess so like I can actual living 166 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: create well, I guess like a football team, like having 167 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: like the Uga bulldog or whatever. 168 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: You know. 169 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: I guess when I think of a mascot. I think 170 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: of somebody wearing a you know, a big custos Yeah, exactly. 171 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, So this is a supposed primate, supposedly dressed 172 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: in a tiny military uniform, was panicked as one could imagine, 173 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: and gibbering mindlessly as monkeys do. And according to the tale, 174 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: the Hartleypudlians interpreted this gibbering as as a foreign language, 175 00:10:58,880 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: possibly French. 176 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: Let's pause there for a second, casey, could you do 177 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: us a massive favor and play the sound of a 178 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: monkey chattering, because we all know a little bit about 179 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: French enough to know what it sounds like roughly, so 180 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: clearly not French. 181 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: Why if you don't know French, who's to say? Who's 182 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: to say? And that is the crux of the story, nol, 183 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: Because the people of this town, the Hartleypudlians, had an 184 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: awareness of the nation of France and the threat that 185 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: opposed geopolitically, but not a person in the village had 186 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: ever seen a French person. And to make matters worse, apparently, 187 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,479 Speaker 2: a lot of political satire cartoons of the day depicted 188 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: frenchmen as hairy, monkey like creatures with sales and sub 189 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: humans exactly because they were the enemy. I mean it 190 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 2: was sort of like the you know, the Red Scare 191 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: type stuff. I mean, this guy is like gunning for 192 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: their their lands, right. So yeah, so what do they do. 193 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: They do like any god fearing, French fearing person would do. 194 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: They panic. 195 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: They panic, They absolutely freak out. 196 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: They bug out, and according to the story, they seize 197 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: again this poor traumatized monkey who has skirted death once already. 198 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: So they panic, It's exactly what they do, and they say, 199 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: we have to do something about this frenchman. Yeah. 200 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: But thankfully, you know, they had their their wits were 201 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 2: about them. They didn't let justice go unserved. 202 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: Ben. 203 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: They they decided to put this monkey on trial. 204 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, due to the language barrier, yes, the monkey was 205 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: not able to defend itself or provide satisfactory answers to 206 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: the townspeople's question. 207 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: That's right, because the thing is, Ben, they didn't just 208 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: think the monkey was it was a Frenchman. They thought 209 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: the monkey was a French spy. And I've yet to 210 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: find a detail that that justifies why exactly that was. 211 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: But those are the questions they were asking him, a 212 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: lot of them. Are you a spy? Right, I said, 213 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: are you a spy. He just keeps speaking frendship me. 214 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: I know, I know. 215 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: So. Yeah, so they sentenced the monkey to death according 216 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: to the tale. 217 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can read different accounts of this, but sources 218 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: that cleave to the story or the anecdote say that 219 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: the townsfolk literally dragged this monkey into the town square 220 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: and then they hanged him and he died. But this 221 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: is where we get a couple of different I don't 222 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: know interpretations and questions about credibility, because there's a darker 223 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: side to the tale that we found in HISTORICUK dot com. Yeah, 224 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: I know the one you're talking about on Ben The 225 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: Hanging of the Heartlepool Monkey by Ben Johnson. The dark 226 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: turn is this, maybe the villagers didn't actually hang a monkey, 227 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: but instead a small bully pretty a child who was 228 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: employed on the warship because at this time there were 229 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: boys who were hired on and worked on these ships 230 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: to prime the cannons with gunpowder. Yeah, with the very 231 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: convenient name of powder monkeys. Right. So is this a 232 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: game of telephone throughout history with the misinterpretation occurring as 233 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: people tell the story over and over again. Yeah, it's true. 234 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: These are all very important questions that we probably won't 235 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: have an actual satisfactory answer to spoiler. But it's because 236 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: no one was there and it was you know, a 237 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: lot of ships went down around that time, because, like 238 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: I said, the naval exploits of Napoleon weren't all always that. 239 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: Successful, right, And according to Historic England's records of thirty 240 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: eight thousand shipwrecks around the coast of Britain, fourteen ships 241 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: sank in the Hartlepool Bay area around that time, so 242 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: there it was not incredibly uncommon for shipwrecks to occur. 243 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: So that's I think we can agree that's more or 244 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: less the gist of the legend. 245 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: Correct, correct, But that's not the gist of the episode. 246 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: I mean, we wouldn't just stop short there. There's got 247 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: to be more, Ben, There's got to be more. Please 248 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: give us more. 249 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: There has to be more. You're right, because you see, 250 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: this is where the credibility of the tail comes into question. 251 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: So you could say maybe something like this happened and 252 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: it got embellished over time, right. But the problem is 253 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: this tale is attributed to more than one place. There's 254 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: a remarkably similar tale from seventeen seventy two that centers 255 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: on Bodom near Peterhead in Aberdeenshire. I love British town names. 256 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: There's an even better one, ben, I believe that's a 257 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: Welsh town or I'm sorry, a Cornish town, right, yes, yeah, 258 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: I'll give this one a go. My never legacy, okay, nevigacy, 259 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: that's good. Yeah, come on, Cornish folk tells us I 260 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: would have done the same. I'm with you on that. 261 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: So in both of these cases, villagers supposedly find a monkey. 262 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in one of them I believe they it 263 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: was the last survivor of the shipwreck, and so they 264 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: killed it so that they could have claim on the cargo. 265 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: Isn't that the deal with some kind of technicality law? Yeah, 266 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: it's aberdeen Shire. H it's a brutal The monkey was 267 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: human enough. I guess what would it have done. Would 268 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: it have become the new captain of the wreck? 269 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: Would it have made a claim? And then the other one, 270 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: I believe the monkey was an organ grinder monkey. It 271 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: wasn't the same. It was a slightly different did a 272 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: kid uh huh? 273 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? That monkey had a comment that still happens when 274 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: animals attack people. 275 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen that show when animals attack people. 276 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: I've seen when animals attack. 277 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: Yes, but my favorite one is the one where it's 278 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: specifically they attack people. 279 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: I you know what, I'm fond of animals attacking cars. 280 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: H that's the thing. Yeah, have you ever seen those videos? Like, 281 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: first off, if you have never been around a monkey, 282 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: some of those monkeys are brutal. They are not playing no, 283 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: and it will break into tart. Don't they eat their 284 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: young too? Did I make that up? I don't know. 285 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: Never mind, let us know if that's just the primate 286 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: stereotype that we've we've seen spread or we could just 287 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: check it now. 288 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: Right. So those are two points against the veracity of 289 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: the story that one thing very similar is attributed to 290 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: a completely different town, And there are other points that 291 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: stick with it. A lot of people who say that 292 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: it definitely happened they're in Heartlepool are supportive of it 293 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: as a being a part of local culture. 294 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's totally like part of their heritage because 295 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: it's weird. It's like, on the one hand, it seems 296 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 2: like a term of abuse, but on the other hand, 297 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: some people look at it as a term of pride. 298 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: Heartlepudlians are often described as monkey hangers. 299 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, And for centuries after the legend spread, references to 300 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: monkey hanging were used to mock the residents the Heartlepudlians 301 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: and apparently at football matches today between local rivals they 302 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: have this chant who hung the monkey? Which I would 303 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: have loved to hear out of context. 304 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: There's also a quote in this BBC article called was 305 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: a Monkey Really Hanged in Hartleypool from a historian by 306 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: the name of Keith Gregson, who mentions the fact that 307 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 2: there was sort of a divide between the town because 308 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: of a newly industrialized area. 309 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: I believe so. 310 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: There was a sense that the folks that lived in 311 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: this new industrialized part of the town called West Hartleypool 312 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: were more intelligent than those who would and the old 313 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: more antiquated, you know, old and clinging on to the 314 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: old way as part of the town. Who may have 315 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: been the ones who hanged this monkey? So it was 316 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: kind of a there is a divide. 317 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: There and that's the older part of the town is 318 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: also where the fishing industry continued, right, so they would 319 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: have been most likely to be hanging out by the waters. Yeah, 320 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: And as the years passed, the people of Hartlepool begin 321 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: to embrace this story as you mentioned, know, as you 322 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: alluded to earlier, it becomes a point of cultural pride 323 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: or something that differentiates their town from other nearby towns, 324 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: and people begin to fall in love with it. It 325 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: becomes the subject of books. There's even a graphic novel. 326 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: I think, there's a play. And there's even a song 327 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: with a little bit of story behind it. Yeah, let's 328 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: hear that. 329 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: Well, a lord there of auto was walking along the shore. 330 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 3: But you se a little Harry Man he's never seen before, 331 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 3: sitting in the sun. Was very little man punching a banana, 332 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: and a little Harry. 333 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: Hansing also not proven. No, no, this this song spoiler. 334 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: This song essentially does the entire story. 335 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: It really does, and it takes a good four and 336 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: a half minutes to do it. So we'll go ahead 337 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: and give it a nice little fade out right now. 338 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: But the song is actually a big part of how 339 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: this legend kind of came to be what it is today, right, Ben, Right, 340 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: that's how it got popularized, or at least the evolution 341 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: of a song. I'm not quite sure if it's this song. 342 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: So they can actually find any attribution for what this 343 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: song is and there's a set of lyrics that's a 344 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: little different. That is a reference to a song that 345 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 2: was first performed in eighteen fifty five by a performer 346 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: from the area by the name of mister E Corvin 347 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: or Edward ned Corvin, who is a Victorian performer who 348 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 2: toured around the area known as the Tyne Side. 349 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: You ever heard of this Ben? Yeah, he was a 350 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: Tyne Side concert hall player, wrote songs and stuff. Tyneside 351 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: is the banks of the River Tyne in northeast England, 352 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: so its region that includes a couple of places, a 353 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: couple of different places that have great names. Newcastle upon Tyne, Gateshead, Tynemouth, Wallsend, 354 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: south Shields and Jarrow. Probably mispronounced a couple of those, 355 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: but if you're listening, you're from that part of the world. Hey, 356 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: shout out to you. Shout out to you. I thought 357 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: you were gonna tell him to shut up no more. 358 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: I want more Tyne Side. You know what's interesting about 359 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Ned we can call him Ned because we're fans of his, 360 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: was that he was known for writing like a satirical song, 361 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of a lighthearted roast for every town 362 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: that he visited. So he would go visit a town 363 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: and he would write a song about them while he 364 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: was there, and he would perform it in the town. 365 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: So when Ned goes to heart Lip, he writes a 366 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: song about Yeah, he writes to talking about the monkey 367 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: hanging hm. And this song becomes popular in the region. 368 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: People love it. Eventually, from what I understand, hart Lipudleyan's 369 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: themselves begin to be fans of the song. Well, here's 370 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: the thing. 371 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: In this BBC article, they talk about how he was 372 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: making references to a previous song that existed called the Baboon, 373 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: which has written in eighteen twenty five, or which was 374 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 2: first heard around eighteen twenty five, and it was a 375 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: different story entirely about a baboon that visited the region 376 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: with some Cossack soldiers. So I don't quite see the 377 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: connection there, but just they both happened in Tyneside. Yeah too. 378 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: But how did he know about the He just made 379 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: up the Napoleonic? Is that what's being implied here, Ben, 380 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: that he just made this thing up wholesale. 381 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: What it seems they're implying is that this was a 382 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: remix or a reworked version of the song, and that 383 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: he took elements from the Baboon and used them in 384 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: his song about the heartlek Pudlian monkey hankers. 385 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 2: But at that point was this already a legend? That's 386 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: my question is like is the legend coming from the song? 387 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: Like where is the uh? Where's the seed of truth here? 388 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: Because there are people that still we're gonna talk about 389 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 2: a second that still hang on to the fact that 390 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 2: the idea of this could well have happened. Is it's 391 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 2: such a bizarre story, but that logic always eludes me. 392 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: When you say it's so crazy it must be true. 393 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: Well, also those folks, as we'll find, have skin in 394 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: the game, right, The main people who believe it are 395 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: themselves Heartlepudlians. It feels like Corvin heard the story, the 396 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: French monkey story right, and then mixed with it aspects 397 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: of the story about the baboon, also from Tyne side, 398 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: and then added a dash of his own stuff. I'll 399 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: here we go, and then set the whole thing in heartlepool. Okay, 400 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: that makes sense, and here we go. 401 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: We also have something from this BBC article that says 402 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: the original song had some phrases in it that he 403 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 2: reused like hairy French spy Andan's uncle, and I wish 404 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: I could find the lyrics to the Baboon. But there's 405 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: another set of lyrics called the Monkey Song that's not 406 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: the same as only played. There's a lot of these 407 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: songs floating around, but it goes in former times when 408 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: Warren strife, the French invasion threatened life, and all was 409 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: armed to the knife. The fisherman hung the monkey. Oh, 410 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: the fisherman with courage high seized on the monkey for 411 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: a French spy, hang him, says one, he's to die. 412 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 2: They did, and they hung the monkey. 413 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: Oh. 414 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: But it's like it's got that same sing songy folky 415 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: quality that the song we played has in the original song. 416 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: That's when we played it because they think he's a spy, 417 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: so we'll hang him in the square. And this one's 418 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: just a little bit different. If the fishermen were courage high, 419 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: seized on the monkey for a French spy, hang him, 420 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: says one, he's to die, They did, and they hung 421 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 2: the monkey. 422 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: Oh. So I don't know, man like, is it. 423 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: Song that's like making this legend a thing or is 424 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: it oral history? 425 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: It's oral history first, and then the song, which is 426 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: borrowing from other songs I got it, okay, So it's 427 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: still and because it's a song, it's oral history. It's true. 428 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: That's a good point. Then here's where we find disagreements. 429 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: As as we mentioned earlier, a lot of the people 430 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: who wholeheartedly believe in this story or claimed to are 431 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: themselves heart Leapudlians. The successful mayoral candidate in the two 432 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: thousand and two local elections, it's a guy named Stuart Drummond. 433 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: He campaigned dressed in the costume of. 434 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: Oh he wasn't just dressed in it, man, He was 435 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: the official mascot of the Heartleaputulian Football Club. 436 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: Right, and he campaigned for mayor dressed in that character. 437 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: But that was a it was like a sort of 438 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: a goof. It was sort of a goof. But he 439 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: maintains that it really did happen. But of course you 440 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: would maintain that really did happen. He's running for mayor, 441 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: wants the town to be unique. It's great pr and 442 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: as as we said, he was the mascot for a time. 443 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he also won. He did win and stayed 444 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: mayor for like, I think eleven years. 445 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: He was mayor. Three election victories. 446 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: He succeeded and yeah, and it just goes to and 447 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: he you know, he maintains that nobody can say whether 448 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: or not this happened or not because nobody was there. 449 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: And that's okay, that's one way of looking at it. 450 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: I saw a quote where he said that it definitely 451 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: something happened. The problem is most of the people who 452 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: disagree with him are professional historians, and even if they 453 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: don't go so far as to say this never happened, 454 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: they end up saying, we looked everywhere for proof of this, 455 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: and we could find absolutely no proof. There was some 456 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: excitement in two thousand and five when an animal bone 457 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: was found buried on the beach, despite the fact that 458 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: in the story the monkeys hanged in the town square. 459 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: People thought, well, this might be physical proof of a 460 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: small primate washing ashore. Unfortunately, it was not a primate bone. 461 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: It was the bone of a prehistoric deer. 462 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: That's right, a deer from somewhere the neighbor had a 463 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: six thousand years ago when herds of deer would have 464 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: migrated across that part of the country, and they were 465 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: followed by tribes of hunters who wanted them for sustenance 466 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 2: and for you know, the byproducts like their skin and 467 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: there in their antlers and stuff. And this is from 468 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: a great article. Well this is my headline, very very 469 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 2: pithy headlined, very good ancient bone not from monkey spy. 470 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: Hopes of unraveling the mystery of the legendary Heartlepool monkey, 471 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: said to have been hanged as a Napoleonic spy, have 472 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: been scuppered by science. Scuppered scupperd's a great word. We 473 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: need to bring that back. Like a scuppernog. What's a scuppernog. 474 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: It's like a type of grape, I think, Oh, yeah, yeah, 475 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 2: sort of like a muscat. 476 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: Oh, okay, muscott, I know, but scupper see it again, scuppernog, 477 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: scupper dog. That sounds so tolkien esque. 478 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can make wine out of it. And in fact, 479 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: it is compared to a muscadine. It is a large 480 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 2: variety of muscadine. Oh, there you go, a species of 481 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: grape native to the southern United States, so right here 482 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 2: in our backyard. 483 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: And at this point it becomes somewhat of a matter 484 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: of opinion, what do you feel better about believing the 485 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: main argument for proponents of the story is that it's 486 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: not hurting anyone and there's no proof that it didn't happen, 487 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: which is not a particularly strong position to take, especially 488 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: because on the other side of the coin, there's no 489 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: proof that it did happen. That's right. So what do 490 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: you believe? What do you choose to believe? Folks? 491 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 2: Oh, we're putting it to the people, well and to 492 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 2: you as well, though, Okay, well, I don't know, man. 493 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: I don't want to poop you on anybody's monkey parade 494 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: or anything. But it feels to me like with the 495 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: nature of the multiple monkey stories, some of the kind 496 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: of you know, mutating facts in the story and the 497 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: different accounts in song, I feel like this is rife 498 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: for having been a kind of a good gag, poking 499 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: fun at the intellect of the people of Hartlepool. 500 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, personally, I choose to believe it didn't happen because 501 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: I don't like the idea of a town of people 502 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: hanging a monkey, you know, man, come on, that's brutal. 503 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: For me to be able to laugh at it and 504 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: derive enjoyment from it, I have to think of it 505 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: as a tall tale. There you go. So this is 506 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: this is the story? Oh man, I can't wait for 507 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: the flood of email from people who have strong opinions. 508 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: We're gonna get a lot of time side people have. 509 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 2: Strong opinions and they send emails. 510 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: It's a new thing. It's insane. You can be part 511 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: of it. We'll give you the information at the end. 512 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: But speaking of emails, enough about us, what about you? 513 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: Did you see any good listener mails today? 514 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: Nol? As a matter of fact, I do, Ben, I did, 515 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: and I do still doing this one. Yeah, this one 516 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: comes from mister venomous and it says Ben and Nole 517 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: Agents of discord is what he's referring to, toss, which 518 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: I like. In all of history, my favorite historical figure 519 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: is Emperor Norton. His story makes him a perfect candidate 520 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: for ridiculous history. In eighteen forty eight, he was bequeathed 521 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: forty thousand dollars from his father's estate. He tried making 522 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: it as a business man and Sam Cisco, but made 523 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 2: a bad investment in buying one hundred tons of pure 524 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: Peruvian rice. A prolonged core battle over the loss of 525 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: his investment led him to go bankrupt in eighteen fifty eight. 526 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: Penniless and discontent with the legal system and politics, he 527 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: declared himself Emperor of the United States and Protector of 528 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: Mexico in eighteen fifty nine. Let's just leave it there, Ben, 529 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: because I like this one and it almost sounds like 530 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: it's something stuffy miss in history class our peer podcast 531 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: may have done, but if not, we're going to snatch 532 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: it up. 533 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: And Agents of Discord is a reference, I believe to 534 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: one of our other shows. Mister Venomous has written into 535 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: us before on stuff they don't want you to know 536 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: what it does. Ring a bell. Yeah, well, it's great 537 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you again, man, I agree with my 538 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: trustee co host here. That is a fantastic idea for 539 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: an episode if we're the first ones to get to 540 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: the plate on it. We have one more emails that's 541 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: a little bit long from Adam s. He titled it 542 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: lots of topics. Sorry, I'm just going to read some 543 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: of the greatest hits of the excerpts here. So Adam, 544 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: you say, hey, guys recently picked up the podcast, So 545 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: catching up, and I'm nearly there. I love the show 546 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: so far, but I do listen to the new episodes 547 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: then go back to make my way through that golden backlog. Huh. 548 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: And I've never heard us our backlog described as golden. 549 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: He has some suggestions for food fils. Adam says, you 550 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: talked about food fails. Can I point a drink one 551 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: your way? Here in the UK, Coca Cola released a 552 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: water which I think you may still get in the 553 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: US Desani. They use the marketing as something like can't 554 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: live without spunk. Here in the UK, that's a slang 555 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: word for something you really wouldn't want in your drink. 556 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: We said that over here plenty. Yeah. I think that 557 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: what made it across the pond. And Adam says it 558 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: got better when it was found out that it was 559 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: treated tapwater from a suburb in London and was no 560 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: better than said tapwater. When the press got a hold 561 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: of it, it was a pr nightmare and pulled. I 562 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: think it may be one of the funniest and worst 563 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: pas our disasters here for a while now. This got 564 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: me thinking, at least we could do an episode on 565 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: some of the biggest historic food fails. There used to 566 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: be a museum in the States A long time ago. 567 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: There was a Hall of shame for foods that appeared 568 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: and disappeared from supermarkets, Things like peas that were pressed 569 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: into a shape of French fries to try to trick 570 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: kids into eating their vegetables. 571 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: Ah. Yeah, as a as a father of a nine 572 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: year old, I can tell you. 573 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: That's not gonna fly. It did not fly. 574 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: But I tried making my kid eat cauliflower because you 575 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: can like make cauliflower into like a rice tiy. 576 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, she doesn't buy it. She knows it's non rice. 577 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: I'll make a cauliflower pizza. I bet she did it. Well, 578 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: that's different. 579 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 2: I feel like that's that's that's a good example, Ben, 580 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: because that's like you're baking it and it has that crunch. 581 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: But with rice, it's just they're not they're not rice 582 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: sized grains. You're not gonna mistake them for RTT. That's 583 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: why it's rice cauliflower, not cauliflower rice. 584 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: Right. So thank you mister venomous, Thank you Adam for writing. 585 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: And we want to hear some more food fails. So 586 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: send us your favorite ones from your neck of the 587 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: global woods. 588 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can write to us at Ridiculous at HowStuffWorks 589 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: dot com. You can hit us up on social media Facebook, Instagram, 590 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: Twitter and all that. You can join our Facebook group 591 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: Ridiculous Historians, where we still kick around some fun ideas 592 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: and have a really nice community that's sprung up there, 593 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: So come come hang out with us there on Ridiculous Historians. 594 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: Of course, we want to thank you for listening. We 595 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: want to thank our super producer Casey Pegram, thanks to 596 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis and Eve's Jeff Cod our research associates, and 597 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: thanks to Alex Williams who composed our track We'll see 598 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: you next time, folks, can we go out on the 599 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: monkey song? 600 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: Let's catch you, oh man, Let's do it. 601 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 3: It was a pond old nay pool about the time 602 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: of France the Emperor Napoleon Leslie Insance, where a pullo 603 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 3: on the post. I'm a British man of Wall. The 604 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 3: captain's old but monkey washed the bottle the shop and 605 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: singing oh boo to everyone on each come and see 606 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: the French eat has landed on the beach. He's got 607 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: my hams a great one telling his co ad doll 608 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 3: in a spy so ill likeabre. 609 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 610 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.