WEBVTT - Feed the Fish 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.280 It is so warm in my neighborhood today that I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.399 thought I would just get some water in this little 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:14.040 pond and cool off my feet. In May of nine, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:17.720 Mr Rogers Neighborhood has only been on TV for a 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.159 little more than a year. Mr Rogers arrives to his 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.400 house carrying a kiddie poole. Let's now go get the water, 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:29.400 all right? Of course, it's not a hot summer day. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:31.920 Mr Rogers has taped in a sound stage at w 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.880 q E D in Pittsburgh, and the episode aired early 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.800 in May, so it was probably taped somewhere around mid April, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.360 if not earlier. Some children think that when you grow up, 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.120 you don't really care for cool water on your feet 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.559 on a hot day. And I can tell you, as 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.839 a Pittsburgh native, April in Pittsburgh is not summer, but 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:58.680 I do. Yeah. So why is Fred so hot? Oh? 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.360 There's Officer Clements. Officer Clemmons, come in mine, want you down. 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.039 Officer Clemons is the friendly neighborhood cop who stops by 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.959 now and again for a visit with Mr Rogers, and 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.120 he's black. Not only is it unusual to have a 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.080 black authority figure on TV in the late nineteen sixties, 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.840 but his role makes Officer Clemmens the only black recurring 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.880 character on all of children's television at the time. It's 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.840 so warm, I was just putting some water on my face. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.880 Oh it, sure is. Would you like to join me? 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.800 It looks awten enjoyable. But I don't have a towel 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.720 or anything. You share mine? Okay? Sure. Francois removes his 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.000 tall military boots, rolls up his pants, and Mr Rogers 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.759 gently soaks Francoise feet with the hose that feels better already. 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.640 A few years before this into, a group of black 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.840 teenagers protested segregation at a Florida motel. They didn't do 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.360 it by picketing or by sitting on the lobby floor. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:09.000 They protested by jumping in the motel pool for swim 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:15.840 wool water on a hot day. M hmm. The motel's owner, 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.000 James Brock, responded by pouring what he said was muriatic 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.840 acid into the pool with the intention of burning the 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:29.880 protesters the teens. They were later arrested by Florida police. 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.200 Swimming pools remained a hotly contested space throughout the so 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.800 called Civil rights era, and that probably is why Fred 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:45.280 Rogers was so hot in April in Pittsburgh in nineteen 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:54.040 sixty nine. Is that enough? Well? I know how busy 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:59.519 you are, but sometimes just a minute like this well 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:07.040 really make a difference. That we have great boots to 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:12.519 fill office with. Clemon, thanks for stopping by so long, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.160 Have a good day, bye bye. Great to live in 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:22.160 a neighborhood with special people like Officer Clements. I'll bet 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.720 you there weren't ten white men in this country who 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.120 would share a towel with a black man. Here in America, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:33.320 being black sometimes really presented a problem. And those swimming 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:39.840 pools people were behaving in a very, very unkind way. 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.000 And I talked to Fred about that, how helpless they 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:50.200 made me feel, and he said, we'll see, We'll see 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:56.160 what we can do. Francois. We hear a lot about 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.600 empathy these days. The word is everywhere, really, t shirts 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.880 and toad bags and Instagram accounts, all reminding us that 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.120 we can choose empathy, as if that's all it takes 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.840 to fix a world that so often feels broken. But 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.920 if we want to change the world, then we have 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:20.880 to take our empathy and do something with it. I'm 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.800 Carvel Wallace and This is Finding Fred, a podcast about 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.480 Fred Rogers from I Heart Media and Fatherly in partnership 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:40.400 with Transmitter Media. The entirety of the episode in which 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:45.880 Fred silks Francoise feet is incredibly simple, but it's also 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:51.240 incredibly powerful. Fred was a master of modeling good behavior 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.719 for kids because he knew just how effective modeling could be. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.880 Here he is in an interview from I was at 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:06.880 this nursery school and the director had invited this man 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:15.159 to come and sculpt in front of the children. She said, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.200 I don't want you teaching sculpting. I want you simply 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.360 to sit with the children and do what you feel 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:28.160 you'd like to do with the clay. Well, the kids 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:34.360 started using clay that medium in the most wonderful ways, 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:41.680 And that wouldn't have happened if this gifted sculptor hadn't 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.640 loved clay right in front of them. This idea of 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.760 just doing what you love in front of people as 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.880 a way of teaching it, of spreading it, loving the clay, 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.760 as Fred would later call it, has been sitting with 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.400 me since I first heard it. It echoes ideas I've 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.800 heard in so many disparate context. Show Don't Tell attraction 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.760 rather than promotion. So in that sense, it's a timeless, 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.600 almost interfaith concept like love that neighbor, or do one 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.000 too others And the other thing about it is that 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.000 rather than pushing me to become some hero, some great 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.520 leader of men, the idea of loving the clay just 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.200 calls on me to be the best version of myself 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.039 that I can be and then to let that be seen. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.080 My favorite like recurring Mr. Rogers moment is him feeding 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.240 his fish. This is my friend Eve Ewing. Eve is 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.640 a scholar and a writer and a professor and a 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.200 poet and a comic book writer. She's like everything, you 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:42.960 don't just be writing, you know, I just write like 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.400 essays and stuff as well, and about those fish. Must 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.400 feed the fish. Whenever he feeds the fish, there's like 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.760 this little jazz piano riff that plays give them a 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:58.680 little food, mimicking like the actions of the fish as 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:00.800 they go up and like open their mouths to get 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:05.680 the food. Seeing this adult engage in this small moment 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.960 of caring for another living creature that requires just like 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.160 a pause of patience and quiet is just so beautiful 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.240 to me. He was showing us how to be good, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.560 not just through saying like be good, don't do drugs, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.600 don't rob people, or whatever, but actually just like doing it, 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.240 like feeding the fish or helping your neighbor with something, 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.440 or being nice to somebody that you know that other 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.880 people are maybe not nice to all the time. Tell 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.080 me more about the role that Fred Rogers played in 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.560 your childhood. I know that you're calling him Fred for 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.440 this podcast, but I can't bring myself to do that. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.240 I haven't bigivener, he never got it and get no 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.720 permission to call this to rob By his first name. Well, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:51.240 you know, that's a lot. I think he's just you know, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.720 somebody that I can say that's always been there in 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.000 my life in the same way that Maria and Gordon 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.760 from Sesame Street have always been there. There's a way 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.080 in which that can sound like kind of sad that 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.160 these TV adults played this role in my life. But 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.080 my mom was working full time out of the house 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.560 and my dad was home with me. And he will 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:18.120 say quite proudly and candidly that his strategy was to 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.720 basically like have me watch PBS all day, and he 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.920 will attribute much of my success as an adult to 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.840 this parenting strategy. But I think that I think as 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.280 an adult, I've come to realize that that was very intentional, 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.720 That these were adults entering my life that I could 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.560 view as like trustworthy, carrying adults, even if I didn't 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.880 know them personally. That that I see that now in 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.640 retrospect as like a form of public intervention or like 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:56.160 a public service. That was very intentional. M. Fred Rogers 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:57.719 was one of the first makers of TV You to 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.640 recognize that it could be a constant positive presents for 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:06.200 kids who didn't always have that at home. He liked 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.880 to say that attitudes are cut, not taught. It's what 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.960 happens when you watch someone love the clay in front 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.959 of you. And he didn't just demonstrate how to work 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.680 with the clay, or tie your shoes or draw with crayons. 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.640 He actually showed kids that doing the right thing can 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.160 make them feel good. One thing I've learned in my 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.360 forty five years on this planet is that doing the 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.000 right thing does not always feel good. Sometimes it can 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.080 take a lot of effort to overcome habit or instinct 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.160 to do the right thing. One of the key ways 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.800 that Mr. Rogers showed us how to be good was 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:46.360 accepting people. Accepting people as they are, and that for 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.559 me is one of the most difficult lessons from Fred Rogers. 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.760 It's particularly difficult these days with Nazis marching in the 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.079 streets and conspiracy theorists on cable news. If being good 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.040 means accepting those people as they are, well, first, I'm 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.720 not sure if I can do it. But am I 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.160 supposed to do it? Is it supposed to feel good? 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.720 I have been thinking a lot about just how to 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.440 understand this moment and also how to understand where Fred 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:19.480 fits into that. And one specific question that I've been 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:23.360 asking everyone is that Fred has this. Uh not now 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.640 I feel self conscious calling Fred, but Fred has this. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:29.679 I know your parents are not raised you to call. 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.199 We're going to let that go. We're gonna have to 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:39.600 edit this impost um. There's this thing about I like 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.240 you the way you are, or it's you I like, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.880 it's you I like and these are these are really 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.920 and this is a really fascinating for me theological concept. 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.480 I even ask my therapist about this, and I was like, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:56.240 what about the bad people? Like? What about And I 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.920 wonder how you parse that out? The idea that we 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.400 are not septing and tolerating of certain people's behavior because 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:07.600 it does harm the least of us man. That's so tricky. Um. 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.760 I'm not a theologian, although I've spent a lot of 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.199 time around theologians. So my non theologian reading of that 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.920 is that's the idea of grace. That's what grace is, right, 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.720 the idea that God's love is unconditional, and that you're 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.600 great just the way you are, just just by being you. 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:30.560 That's enough. Now, I think that there's a subtle difference 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:37.160 between that idea and saying that everything you do is fine. Right, 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.920 So to me, what I hear when I hear it's 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.760 you I like or the idea of loving people unconditionally 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.240 is that. I don't believe in monsters. I really don't. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:52.480 I don't believe that the vast majority of people who 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:57.320 do harm do so because they're inhuman. I I believe 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:02.200 that people harm others for so many complicated reasons that 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.880 usually have to do with some variation of they themselves 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.720 have been harmed and have never been given any opportunity 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.240 to heal from that harm, or because our society disregards 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:18.800 others because they're considered marginal. Now that being said, uh, 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.720 you know, as the old saying goes like Jesus loves you, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.760 Jesus forgives you. That doesn't mean I have to you know, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.000 Mr rogers ministry doesn't have to be everybody's ministry. So 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.320 Mr Rogers is a person who came out and said, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.880 I love everybody unconditionally, and that's not something everybody is 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.440 able to do. And that is okay. You know, I 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:44.240 think that that's fine. Accepting people as they are is 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.880 a lofty goal. Not everyone is able to do that. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.640 I guess most of us can't always do that, and 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.480 sometimes it's way more complicated than just accepting someone. How 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.520 do you accept someone when the thing that they're doing 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.120 is hurting you or hurting your family or your community. 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:25.679 We'll be right back. Fred Rogers was a master of 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.920 loving the clay, of demonstrating and modeling the graciousness and 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.840 neighborliness that he wished to see in the world, and 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.520 he did it on TV, where millions of children could 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.360 mimic what Fred was modeling, but they could also learn 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.040 how to love the clay in their own way. Even 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:47.960 though Mr rogers neighborhood belonged to Mr Rogers, Fred also 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.400 had dozens and dozens of television neighbors, each of whom 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.360 demonstrated their own gifts and talents for the toddler audience. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:00.240 I have never not saying I've always been a to 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.080 sing a song. It was all at first, you know. 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.240 It's kind of like a trick. My aunts and uncles 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.000 and cousins would ask me to sing and Mr Rogers 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:13.600 Neighborhood Francois Clemens played the police officer, the singing police officer. 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.319 My nickname was Buttercup, and the older I get, the 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.600 more I love that name. A little Buttercup. And they 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.880 used to say, body, Cup, come over here, child and 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.640 sing this song for me. And I would come over. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.040 I sing for my aunt Clara, my ant Hattie, my 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.800 aunt Emma. Clemens is something of a phenomen a Grammy 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.600 winning singer of opera and jazz. He founded the Harlem 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:38.640 Spiritual Ensemble, which preserves and performs traditional American Negro spirituals. 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.640 Francois was part of Mr Rogers Neighborhood for more than 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.400 twenty years, but that footbath episode in nineteen six nine 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.200 made him an icon. I had no idea that scene 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.360 would have that kind of an effect. Everywhere I went, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.600 people wanted to tell me their private story about that scene. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.720 Somewhere having discussions in their homes and that scene came on. 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.960 They said, Mom, look, Mom, Dad, look dad, there's Francois 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.800 and Mr. Rogers with their feet in the same pool. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:18.240 One's black and once white. Yes they are, aren't They 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:24.080 and their friends. But long before he met fred Francois 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:25.840 was like a lot of the kids who would eventually 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.640 grow up watching Mr. Rogers, He was lonely. Francois told 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.600 me that his parents were clinically depressed, so we learned 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.800 to look to other people for affection and care. Some 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:39.680 of the things people say, Oh, there's nothing like a 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:44.360 mother's love, Oh there's nothing like family. I questioned that 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:49.720 from a very very young age. When my parents did 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.280 not act right in the sense of trust and love 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:58.640 and nurturing, I turned to a teacher, or to a 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.760 social worker, or to a parent of one of my peers. 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.200 They responded to me in a way that I thought 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.360 my parents should have. But some of that care was 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.240 a little bit more like charity than love, and growing 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.760 up in America in the eighteen fifties meant that help 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.800 was sometimes suffused with racism. The truth is the simple 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.160 answer is I was two people in one and that 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.880 was the one that was very sad. And to know 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.640 that there are people who disliked me, who pushed me 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:34.400 away simply because of my color, I could not deny it. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.840 I didn't try to deny it. But then there were 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.720 those who said, oh, you need a new suit, Come 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.760 come with us. We're gonna go buy you a new suit. 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.760 Or they said, look at that boy's shoes. Come on, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.680 we're gonna we're gonna take you downtown and buy you 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:53.960 a pair of shoes. It would have confused the average kid, 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.480 but since my parents weren't doing it, and I knew 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.600 that I needed a new suit, I had a sense 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.959 of one to dress decently and be clean. So in 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.120 my mind I said, I have to wait and see 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.320 what they're gonna do. Who these people are they gonna 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.080 push me away? Are they gonna see to it that 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.080 I have a winter coat. Francois was singing at a 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.840 church the first time he encountered Fred. When he invited 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.080 me to come onto the program and to have a 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:30.359 regular singing part, I said, Fred, I will be very 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.320 happy to be on your program as long as it 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:40.560 doesn't interfere with my singing, and he looked at me 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.600 and he told me, lady, he said, Francois, that is 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:50.240 the moment that I loved you, because you were not 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.080 gonna kiss my ass, and that's what everybody else was doing. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.680 Those are his words. Officer Clemens first appeared in the 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.480 neighborhood in August of nine. He says it took a 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.160 while for him to get used to working with Fred Rogers. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:11.880 He was a very unusual positive energy. It was not negative, 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.159 but it was just so damn unusual. And by that 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.760 I mean those puppets. Uh caused me a lot of 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.280 hours of thinking, what on earth was a grown man 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.560 doing plan with those puppets. I'm a ghetto boy, that was. 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.960 I knew some black men who well halfway trying to 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.440 act right, but I never knew none who could play 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.840 with no puppets, you know. So I could, I just 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.399 couldn't wrap my head around it. And so I was 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.800 looking at him. I was looking at him carefully. But 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.320 ultimately Francois found in Fred a kindred spirit, a willing, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.800 creative collaborator, and a true friend who loved him in 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.560 a way that Francois hadn't quite experienced. Before Fred Raw 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:02.920 just recognized something in me before I did. When I 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.760 got with Fred and he began to do these little 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:10.679 extra things, that was over and beyond the call of Judy. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.400 I I was confused by that. Why is this white 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:18.280 guy sticking with me? Why is he so persistently wonderful? 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:24.040 So when he said you're special, and you know how 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:33.000 just by being you and I like you who just 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.199 the way you are? Can you make every day a 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:43.080 special day? One instance in particular stands out to Francois 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.439 many years later. Mr Rogers was rapping the show the 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.400 way he always rapped the show, changing his shoes, removing 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.919 a sweater. You've made it a special day for me, 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:59.640 you know how, by just your being yourself. Yeah, there's 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.760 only one person in the whole world like you, and 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.560 I like you just the way you are. See Tom, 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.080 I don't even know how to explain it, except we 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.520 had locked eyes all the way across this big studio, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.680 and I dared to say to myself, he's talking to me, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.919 But he talks. He says that every every time I 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.000 come to a show that he's filming, he's saying that. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.760 Why was he saying that to me today? There was 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.840 something in his voice, something in his eyes. It was 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:38.160 important to me to ask him, Fred, were you talking 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:43.240 to me? I had never had somebody say that to 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.040 me in my whole life. Oh Lord, I can't tell you. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.000 When he said, yes, yes, I've been talking to you 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:58.159 for two years and you heard me today, that was 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:04.720 such a the lines explosion. I can't explain it any 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.840 other way. It was inside of me, it was outside 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.120 of me, it was in him, it was in our eyes. 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.679 I saw divinity. That's the only thing I can tell people. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:20.040 I have never experienced anything like it since. And I 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:31.720 just collapsed in his in his arms. For Francois, the 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.160 prospect of being accepted fully and completely was a near 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:41.400 religious experience, But it was also a complicated one because 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:46.119 Francois had a secret, a big secret that he had 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.600 been keeping from almost everyone. Would Fred accept him even 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.000 if he knew that secret too, Would Fred truly like 0:21:54.200 --> 0:22:00.600 him just the way that he was. I remember calling 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:02.520 Fred on the telephone. I said I've got to tell 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:07.480 you something, and he said yes, And that's when I 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:15.320 really said to him, I'm gay. Fred. He said to me, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:21.520 I will always love you, Francois. So that's not what 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:26.800 we're discussing. What we are discussing is the role that 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.199 you will be able to play on Mr rogers neighborhood. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:35.520 And what does it mean if you choose to come out. 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:41.200 Fred Rogers loved and accepted Francois Clements and in nine 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.440 it was a radical act to show a black man 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.480 and a white man sharing a footpath, but having an 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:50.399 openly gay man performing on a children's show that felt 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.120 to Fred even riskier. And the thing that he impressed 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:59.919 upon me was the advertisers there would be a normal 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:05.639 pressure on them from certain corners in our society that 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.880 condemn homosexuality. And the thing he said to me was, France, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.840 while they're going to say terrible things about you and 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:23.280 about me and about our program. And he said, all 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:28.520 of our work, all of our valuable work and research 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:37.399 will be lost. Is that what you want? And I, 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:42.320 of course no, of course not. Then he said you 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:47.240 you cannot come out. You come out. They will not tolerate, 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:52.119 they will not tolerate a gay person, and especially on 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.480 a children's television program. It simply could not be done. 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:07.320 How did that make you feel? It was one of 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:13.439 the lowest, one of the lowest moments of my life. 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:18.400 Realizing that, I think that was the moment I decided 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:23.199 to go back into the closet and stay. Francois had 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:27.240 spent years learning to love and accept himself, and here 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.359 he was presenting a crucial part of that self to Fred. 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:35.080 And though Fred reiterated his unconditional love for Francois, he 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:37.760 still didn't believe that the wider world was ready to 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:43.320 accept Francois just the way he was. Fred was faced 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.600 with the question of weighing the needs of his friend 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.159 with the preservation of his own larger mission, reaching as 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:54.520 many children as possible. There were those in the black community, 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.320 Oh my goodness, who said to me, how important it 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.960 is that there's a face on that children's show appearing 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:08.680 fairly regularly. Francois the ghetto kid needs to know that 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:12.119 they too can go from the ghetto to Mr. Rogers neighborhood. 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:16.600 They they really impressed upon me how important it was 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:23.080 that there would be no scandal, no disgrace to the race. 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.240 Boy did I I zipped it up then, So, even 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:33.000 though there were things going on a stone wall, I 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:38.440 absolutely did not have the luxury of coming out. If 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:42.639 I were going to be continue on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:48.080 And I've said this too many people who tried to say, well, 0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:50.480 he rejected you, and he would didn't want you on 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:52.840 the program, and this is that blah blah. I can't 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:58.320 tell you how much I thought about that. I say 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.280 that was there was a period of time with when 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:03.919 it was obsessive. I can't be myself, I can't have 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:11.280 a normal life. What a sacrifice. Francois Clemens made an 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:15.760 enormous sacrifice in a very real sense. That sacrifice may 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:19.560 have been responsible for thirty years worth of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.040 because who's to say how long a show with a 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.440 gay black man would have even stayed on the air 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:28.440 in the late nineteen sixties. And there's another irony that 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.160 for all of Fred's stated commitment to commercial free television 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:36.960 for kids, he still felt worried about protecting advertisers from 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:41.439 the pressure of Francois coming out. So where did that 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:47.000 leave Francois. He had to swallow his pain and he 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.280 had to carry it. He had to accept this denial 0:26:50.320 --> 0:26:52.879 of honesty as the price of being a part of 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:56.040 a work like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood that did do so 0:26:56.160 --> 0:27:00.639 much good for so many people. Fred Rogers of meant 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:06.359 liberation for Francois Clemens, but not complete liberation that would 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:10.719 be for Francois to find on his own. But he 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:14.400 did learn from Fred. For nearly three decades, he watched 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:18.480 Fred love the Clay, demonstrate practical care and real goodness, 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:21.040 and he saw how the transmission of that care through 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:24.320 millions of TV screens could have a domino effect. And 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:28.440 he decided that that result was too good to endanger 0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:34.040 what I have made the same kind of personal sacrifice, 0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:47.080 would you? Francoise professional singing career took more and more 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.560 of his time. His final scene on the show was 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.960 in and he hadn't appeared dressed as a police officer 0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:56.280 in almost a decade. But in that last episode, he 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:59.560 showed up at Mr Rogers porch just as Fred was 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:09.520 starting to soak his feet. H you know, I've been 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:13.480 sitting here thinking about different ways people have of showing 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:18.280