1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: It is so warm in my neighborhood today that I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: thought I would just get some water in this little 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: pond and cool off my feet. In May of nine, 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Mr Rogers Neighborhood has only been on TV for a 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: little more than a year. Mr Rogers arrives to his 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: house carrying a kiddie poole. Let's now go get the water, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: all right? Of course, it's not a hot summer day. 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: Mr Rogers has taped in a sound stage at w 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: q E D in Pittsburgh, and the episode aired early 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: in May, so it was probably taped somewhere around mid April, 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: if not earlier. Some children think that when you grow up, 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: you don't really care for cool water on your feet 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: on a hot day. And I can tell you, as 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: a Pittsburgh native, April in Pittsburgh is not summer, but 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: I do. Yeah. So why is Fred so hot? Oh? 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: There's Officer Clements. Officer Clemmons, come in mine, want you down. 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: Officer Clemons is the friendly neighborhood cop who stops by 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: now and again for a visit with Mr Rogers, and 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: he's black. Not only is it unusual to have a 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: black authority figure on TV in the late nineteen sixties, 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: but his role makes Officer Clemmens the only black recurring 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: character on all of children's television at the time. It's 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: so warm, I was just putting some water on my face. 24 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: Oh it, sure is. Would you like to join me? 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: It looks awten enjoyable. But I don't have a towel 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: or anything. You share mine? Okay? Sure. Francois removes his 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: tall military boots, rolls up his pants, and Mr Rogers 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: gently soaks Francoise feet with the hose that feels better already. 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: A few years before this into, a group of black 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: teenagers protested segregation at a Florida motel. They didn't do 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: it by picketing or by sitting on the lobby floor. 32 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: They protested by jumping in the motel pool for swim 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: wool water on a hot day. M hmm. The motel's owner, 34 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: James Brock, responded by pouring what he said was muriatic 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: acid into the pool with the intention of burning the 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: protesters the teens. They were later arrested by Florida police. 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Swimming pools remained a hotly contested space throughout the so 38 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: called Civil rights era, and that probably is why Fred 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: Rogers was so hot in April in Pittsburgh in nineteen 40 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: sixty nine. Is that enough? Well? I know how busy 41 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: you are, but sometimes just a minute like this well 42 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: really make a difference. That we have great boots to 43 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: fill office with. Clemon, thanks for stopping by so long, 44 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: Have a good day, bye bye. Great to live in 45 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: a neighborhood with special people like Officer Clements. I'll bet 46 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: you there weren't ten white men in this country who 47 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: would share a towel with a black man. Here in America, 48 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: being black sometimes really presented a problem. And those swimming 49 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: pools people were behaving in a very, very unkind way. 50 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: And I talked to Fred about that, how helpless they 51 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: made me feel, and he said, we'll see, We'll see 52 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: what we can do. Francois. We hear a lot about 53 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: empathy these days. The word is everywhere, really, t shirts 54 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: and toad bags and Instagram accounts, all reminding us that 55 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: we can choose empathy, as if that's all it takes 56 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: to fix a world that so often feels broken. But 57 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: if we want to change the world, then we have 58 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: to take our empathy and do something with it. I'm 59 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: Carvel Wallace and This is Finding Fred, a podcast about 60 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers from I Heart Media and Fatherly in partnership 61 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: with Transmitter Media. The entirety of the episode in which 62 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: Fred silks Francoise feet is incredibly simple, but it's also 63 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful. Fred was a master of modeling good behavior 64 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: for kids because he knew just how effective modeling could be. 65 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: Here he is in an interview from I was at 66 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: this nursery school and the director had invited this man 67 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: to come and sculpt in front of the children. She said, 68 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: I don't want you teaching sculpting. I want you simply 69 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: to sit with the children and do what you feel 70 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: you'd like to do with the clay. Well, the kids 71 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: started using clay that medium in the most wonderful ways, 72 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: And that wouldn't have happened if this gifted sculptor hadn't 73 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: loved clay right in front of them. This idea of 74 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: just doing what you love in front of people as 75 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: a way of teaching it, of spreading it, loving the clay, 76 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: as Fred would later call it, has been sitting with 77 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: me since I first heard it. It echoes ideas I've 78 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: heard in so many disparate context. Show Don't Tell attraction 79 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: rather than promotion. So in that sense, it's a timeless, 80 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: almost interfaith concept like love that neighbor, or do one 81 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: too others And the other thing about it is that 82 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: rather than pushing me to become some hero, some great 83 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: leader of men, the idea of loving the clay just 84 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: calls on me to be the best version of myself 85 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: that I can be and then to let that be seen. 86 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: My favorite like recurring Mr. Rogers moment is him feeding 87 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: his fish. This is my friend Eve Ewing. Eve is 88 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: a scholar and a writer and a professor and a 89 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: poet and a comic book writer. She's like everything, you 90 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: don't just be writing, you know, I just write like 91 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: essays and stuff as well, and about those fish. Must 92 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: feed the fish. Whenever he feeds the fish, there's like 93 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: this little jazz piano riff that plays give them a 94 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: little food, mimicking like the actions of the fish as 95 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: they go up and like open their mouths to get 96 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: the food. Seeing this adult engage in this small moment 97 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: of caring for another living creature that requires just like 98 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: a pause of patience and quiet is just so beautiful 99 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: to me. He was showing us how to be good, 100 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: not just through saying like be good, don't do drugs, 101 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: don't rob people, or whatever, but actually just like doing it, 102 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: like feeding the fish or helping your neighbor with something, 103 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: or being nice to somebody that you know that other 104 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: people are maybe not nice to all the time. Tell 105 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: me more about the role that Fred Rogers played in 106 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: your childhood. I know that you're calling him Fred for 107 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: this podcast, but I can't bring myself to do that. 108 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: I haven't bigivener, he never got it and get no 109 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: permission to call this to rob By his first name. Well, 110 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, that's a lot. I think he's just you know, 111 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: somebody that I can say that's always been there in 112 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: my life in the same way that Maria and Gordon 113 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: from Sesame Street have always been there. There's a way 114 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: in which that can sound like kind of sad that 115 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: these TV adults played this role in my life. But 116 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: my mom was working full time out of the house 117 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: and my dad was home with me. And he will 118 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: say quite proudly and candidly that his strategy was to 119 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: basically like have me watch PBS all day, and he 120 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: will attribute much of my success as an adult to 121 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: this parenting strategy. But I think that I think as 122 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: an adult, I've come to realize that that was very intentional, 123 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: That these were adults entering my life that I could 124 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: view as like trustworthy, carrying adults, even if I didn't 125 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: know them personally. That that I see that now in 126 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: retrospect as like a form of public intervention or like 127 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: a public service. That was very intentional. M. Fred Rogers 128 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: was one of the first makers of TV You to 129 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: recognize that it could be a constant positive presents for 130 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: kids who didn't always have that at home. He liked 131 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: to say that attitudes are cut, not taught. It's what 132 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: happens when you watch someone love the clay in front 133 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: of you. And he didn't just demonstrate how to work 134 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: with the clay, or tie your shoes or draw with crayons. 135 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: He actually showed kids that doing the right thing can 136 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: make them feel good. One thing I've learned in my 137 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: forty five years on this planet is that doing the 138 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: right thing does not always feel good. Sometimes it can 139 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: take a lot of effort to overcome habit or instinct 140 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: to do the right thing. One of the key ways 141 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: that Mr. Rogers showed us how to be good was 142 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: accepting people. Accepting people as they are, and that for 143 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: me is one of the most difficult lessons from Fred Rogers. 144 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: It's particularly difficult these days with Nazis marching in the 145 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: streets and conspiracy theorists on cable news. If being good 146 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: means accepting those people as they are, well, first, I'm 147 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: not sure if I can do it. But am I 148 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: supposed to do it? Is it supposed to feel good? 149 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: I have been thinking a lot about just how to 150 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: understand this moment and also how to understand where Fred 151 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: fits into that. And one specific question that I've been 152 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: asking everyone is that Fred has this. Uh not now 153 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: I feel self conscious calling Fred, but Fred has this. 154 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: I know your parents are not raised you to call. 155 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: We're going to let that go. We're gonna have to 156 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: edit this impost um. There's this thing about I like 157 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: you the way you are, or it's you I like, 158 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: it's you I like and these are these are really 159 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: and this is a really fascinating for me theological concept. 160 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: I even ask my therapist about this, and I was like, 161 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: what about the bad people? Like? What about And I 162 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: wonder how you parse that out? The idea that we 163 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: are not septing and tolerating of certain people's behavior because 164 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: it does harm the least of us man. That's so tricky. Um. 165 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a theologian, although I've spent a lot of 166 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: time around theologians. So my non theologian reading of that 167 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: is that's the idea of grace. That's what grace is, right, 168 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: the idea that God's love is unconditional, and that you're 169 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: great just the way you are, just just by being you. 170 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: That's enough. Now, I think that there's a subtle difference 171 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: between that idea and saying that everything you do is fine. Right, 172 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: So to me, what I hear when I hear it's 173 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: you I like or the idea of loving people unconditionally 174 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: is that. I don't believe in monsters. I really don't. 175 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: I don't believe that the vast majority of people who 176 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: do harm do so because they're inhuman. I I believe 177 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: that people harm others for so many complicated reasons that 178 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: usually have to do with some variation of they themselves 179 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: have been harmed and have never been given any opportunity 180 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: to heal from that harm, or because our society disregards 181 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: others because they're considered marginal. Now that being said, uh, 182 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, as the old saying goes like Jesus loves you, 183 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Jesus forgives you. That doesn't mean I have to you know, 184 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: Mr rogers ministry doesn't have to be everybody's ministry. So 185 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: Mr Rogers is a person who came out and said, 186 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: I love everybody unconditionally, and that's not something everybody is 187 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: able to do. And that is okay. You know, I 188 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: think that that's fine. Accepting people as they are is 189 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: a lofty goal. Not everyone is able to do that. 190 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: I guess most of us can't always do that, and 191 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: sometimes it's way more complicated than just accepting someone. How 192 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: do you accept someone when the thing that they're doing 193 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: is hurting you or hurting your family or your community. 194 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Fred Rogers was a master of 195 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: loving the clay, of demonstrating and modeling the graciousness and 196 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: neighborliness that he wished to see in the world, and 197 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: he did it on TV, where millions of children could 198 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: mimic what Fred was modeling, but they could also learn 199 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: how to love the clay in their own way. Even 200 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: though Mr rogers neighborhood belonged to Mr Rogers, Fred also 201 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: had dozens and dozens of television neighbors, each of whom 202 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: demonstrated their own gifts and talents for the toddler audience. 203 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: I have never not saying I've always been a to 204 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: sing a song. It was all at first, you know. 205 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a trick. My aunts and uncles 206 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: and cousins would ask me to sing and Mr Rogers 207 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Neighborhood Francois Clemens played the police officer, the singing police officer. 208 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: My nickname was Buttercup, and the older I get, the 209 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: more I love that name. A little Buttercup. And they 210 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: used to say, body, Cup, come over here, child and 211 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: sing this song for me. And I would come over. 212 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: I sing for my aunt Clara, my ant Hattie, my 213 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: aunt Emma. Clemens is something of a phenomen a Grammy 214 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: winning singer of opera and jazz. He founded the Harlem 215 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: Spiritual Ensemble, which preserves and performs traditional American Negro spirituals. 216 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: Francois was part of Mr Rogers Neighborhood for more than 217 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: twenty years, but that footbath episode in nineteen six nine 218 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: made him an icon. I had no idea that scene 219 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: would have that kind of an effect. Everywhere I went, 220 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: people wanted to tell me their private story about that scene. 221 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: Somewhere having discussions in their homes and that scene came on. 222 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: They said, Mom, look, Mom, Dad, look dad, there's Francois 223 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: and Mr. Rogers with their feet in the same pool. 224 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: One's black and once white. Yes they are, aren't They 225 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: and their friends. But long before he met fred Francois 226 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: was like a lot of the kids who would eventually 227 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: grow up watching Mr. Rogers, He was lonely. Francois told 228 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: me that his parents were clinically depressed, so we learned 229 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: to look to other people for affection and care. Some 230 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: of the things people say, Oh, there's nothing like a 231 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: mother's love, Oh there's nothing like family. I questioned that 232 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: from a very very young age. When my parents did 233 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: not act right in the sense of trust and love 234 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: and nurturing, I turned to a teacher, or to a 235 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: social worker, or to a parent of one of my peers. 236 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: They responded to me in a way that I thought 237 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: my parents should have. But some of that care was 238 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: a little bit more like charity than love, and growing 239 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: up in America in the eighteen fifties meant that help 240 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: was sometimes suffused with racism. The truth is the simple 241 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: answer is I was two people in one and that 242 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: was the one that was very sad. And to know 243 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: that there are people who disliked me, who pushed me 244 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: away simply because of my color, I could not deny it. 245 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: I didn't try to deny it. But then there were 246 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: those who said, oh, you need a new suit, Come 247 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: come with us. We're gonna go buy you a new suit. 248 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: Or they said, look at that boy's shoes. Come on, 249 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna take you downtown and buy you 250 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. It would have confused the average kid, 251 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: but since my parents weren't doing it, and I knew 252 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: that I needed a new suit, I had a sense 253 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 1: of one to dress decently and be clean. So in 254 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: my mind I said, I have to wait and see 255 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: what they're gonna do. Who these people are they gonna 256 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: push me away? Are they gonna see to it that 257 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: I have a winter coat. Francois was singing at a 258 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: church the first time he encountered Fred. When he invited 259 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: me to come onto the program and to have a 260 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: regular singing part, I said, Fred, I will be very 261 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: happy to be on your program as long as it 262 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: doesn't interfere with my singing, and he looked at me 263 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: and he told me, lady, he said, Francois, that is 264 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: the moment that I loved you, because you were not 265 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: gonna kiss my ass, and that's what everybody else was doing. 266 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: Those are his words. Officer Clemens first appeared in the 267 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: neighborhood in August of nine. He says it took a 268 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: while for him to get used to working with Fred Rogers. 269 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: He was a very unusual positive energy. It was not negative, 270 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: but it was just so damn unusual. And by that 271 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: I mean those puppets. Uh caused me a lot of 272 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: hours of thinking, what on earth was a grown man 273 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: doing plan with those puppets. I'm a ghetto boy, that was. 274 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: I knew some black men who well halfway trying to 275 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: act right, but I never knew none who could play 276 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: with no puppets, you know. So I could, I just 277 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: couldn't wrap my head around it. And so I was 278 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: looking at him. I was looking at him carefully. But 279 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: ultimately Francois found in Fred a kindred spirit, a willing, 280 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: creative collaborator, and a true friend who loved him in 281 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: a way that Francois hadn't quite experienced. Before Fred Raw 282 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: just recognized something in me before I did. When I 283 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: got with Fred and he began to do these little 284 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: extra things, that was over and beyond the call of Judy. 285 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: I I was confused by that. Why is this white 286 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: guy sticking with me? Why is he so persistently wonderful? 287 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: So when he said you're special, and you know how 288 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: just by being you and I like you who just 289 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: the way you are? Can you make every day a 290 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: special day? One instance in particular stands out to Francois 291 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: many years later. Mr Rogers was rapping the show the 292 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: way he always rapped the show, changing his shoes, removing 293 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: a sweater. You've made it a special day for me, 294 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: you know how, by just your being yourself. Yeah, there's 295 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: only one person in the whole world like you, and 296 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: I like you just the way you are. See Tom, 297 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: I don't even know how to explain it, except we 298 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: had locked eyes all the way across this big studio, 299 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: and I dared to say to myself, he's talking to me, 300 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: But he talks. He says that every every time I 301 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: come to a show that he's filming, he's saying that. 302 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: Why was he saying that to me today? There was 303 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: something in his voice, something in his eyes. It was 304 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: important to me to ask him, Fred, were you talking 305 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: to me? I had never had somebody say that to 306 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: me in my whole life. Oh Lord, I can't tell you. 307 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: When he said, yes, yes, I've been talking to you 308 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: for two years and you heard me today, that was 309 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: such a the lines explosion. I can't explain it any 310 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: other way. It was inside of me, it was outside 311 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: of me, it was in him, it was in our eyes. 312 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: I saw divinity. That's the only thing I can tell people. 313 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: I have never experienced anything like it since. And I 314 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: just collapsed in his in his arms. For Francois, the 315 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: prospect of being accepted fully and completely was a near 316 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: religious experience, But it was also a complicated one because 317 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: Francois had a secret, a big secret that he had 318 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: been keeping from almost everyone. Would Fred accept him even 319 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: if he knew that secret too, Would Fred truly like 320 00:21:54,200 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: him just the way that he was. I remember calling 321 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: Fred on the telephone. I said I've got to tell 322 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: you something, and he said yes, And that's when I 323 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: really said to him, I'm gay. Fred. He said to me, 324 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: I will always love you, Francois. So that's not what 325 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: we're discussing. What we are discussing is the role that 326 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: you will be able to play on Mr rogers neighborhood. 327 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: And what does it mean if you choose to come out. 328 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers loved and accepted Francois Clements and in nine 329 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: it was a radical act to show a black man 330 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: and a white man sharing a footpath, but having an 331 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: openly gay man performing on a children's show that felt 332 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: to Fred even riskier. And the thing that he impressed 333 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: upon me was the advertisers there would be a normal 334 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: pressure on them from certain corners in our society that 335 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: condemn homosexuality. And the thing he said to me was, France, 336 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: while they're going to say terrible things about you and 337 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: about me and about our program. And he said, all 338 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: of our work, all of our valuable work and research 339 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: will be lost. Is that what you want? And I, 340 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: of course no, of course not. Then he said you 341 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: you cannot come out. You come out. They will not tolerate, 342 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: they will not tolerate a gay person, and especially on 343 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: a children's television program. It simply could not be done. 344 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: How did that make you feel? It was one of 345 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: the lowest, one of the lowest moments of my life. 346 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: Realizing that, I think that was the moment I decided 347 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: to go back into the closet and stay. Francois had 348 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: spent years learning to love and accept himself, and here 349 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: he was presenting a crucial part of that self to Fred. 350 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: And though Fred reiterated his unconditional love for Francois, he 351 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: still didn't believe that the wider world was ready to 352 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: accept Francois just the way he was. Fred was faced 353 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: with the question of weighing the needs of his friend 354 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: with the preservation of his own larger mission, reaching as 355 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: many children as possible. There were those in the black community, 356 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, who said to me, how important it 357 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: is that there's a face on that children's show appearing 358 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: fairly regularly. Francois the ghetto kid needs to know that 359 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: they too can go from the ghetto to Mr. Rogers neighborhood. 360 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: They they really impressed upon me how important it was 361 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: that there would be no scandal, no disgrace to the race. 362 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: Boy did I I zipped it up then, So, even 363 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: though there were things going on a stone wall, I 364 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: absolutely did not have the luxury of coming out. If 365 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: I were going to be continue on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. 366 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: And I've said this too many people who tried to say, well, 367 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: he rejected you, and he would didn't want you on 368 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: the program, and this is that blah blah. I can't 369 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: tell you how much I thought about that. I say 370 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: that was there was a period of time with when 371 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: it was obsessive. I can't be myself, I can't have 372 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: a normal life. What a sacrifice. Francois Clemens made an 373 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: enormous sacrifice in a very real sense. That sacrifice may 374 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: have been responsible for thirty years worth of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, 375 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: because who's to say how long a show with a 376 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: gay black man would have even stayed on the air 377 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen sixties. And there's another irony that 378 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: for all of Fred's stated commitment to commercial free television 379 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: for kids, he still felt worried about protecting advertisers from 380 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: the pressure of Francois coming out. So where did that 381 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: leave Francois. He had to swallow his pain and he 382 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: had to carry it. He had to accept this denial 383 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: of honesty as the price of being a part of 384 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: a work like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood that did do so 385 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: much good for so many people. Fred Rogers of meant 386 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: liberation for Francois Clemens, but not complete liberation that would 387 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 1: be for Francois to find on his own. But he 388 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: did learn from Fred. For nearly three decades, he watched 389 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: Fred love the Clay, demonstrate practical care and real goodness, 390 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: and he saw how the transmission of that care through 391 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: millions of TV screens could have a domino effect. And 392 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: he decided that that result was too good to endanger 393 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: what I have made the same kind of personal sacrifice, 394 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: would you? Francoise professional singing career took more and more 395 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: of his time. His final scene on the show was 396 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: in and he hadn't appeared dressed as a police officer 397 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: in almost a decade. But in that last episode, he 398 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: showed up at Mr Rogers porch just as Fred was 399 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: starting to soak his feet. H you know, I've been 400 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: sitting here thinking about different ways people have of showing 401 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: love to each other and to themselves. I like to 402 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: think of things like that, he Fred French or Clemens. Hi, welcome, 403 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: thank you, How you doing fine? How are you today? 404 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: My feet were tired, so I thought I'd just soaked 405 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: them for a while in this water. Does it make 406 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: him feel better? It does? Would you like to try? Sure? 407 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: It does feel good? I was thinking about many different 408 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: ways of saying I love you. Singing is one of 409 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: my ways of saying I love you. Oh I know that. 410 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: Do you have time to to give a song to 411 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: my friend and me? I sure do. There are many 412 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: ways to say I love you. There are many ways 413 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: to say I care about anyways, so many ways, many 414 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: ways to say I've sung it a million times and 415 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: I still love it. There's the singing way to say 416 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: I love you. I get such a dose a Fred love. 417 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: That's what I call it. I'm so blessed, I'm very grateful. 418 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: Many ways to say I love you. I'm so proud 419 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: of you. Friends. Oh, thank you Fred. Next time they 420 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: called it Fred time. He slowed a pace down and 421 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: that gave him the opportunity to express his love and 422 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: care for other people and reach out and touch our 423 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: hearts as well. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media. 424 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: The team is Dan O'Donnell, Jordan Bailey, and Mattie Foley. 425 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Nick's editorial help from Michael Garoffalo. 426 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: The executive producer for Transmitter Media is Gretta Cone. Executive 427 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: producers at Fatherly are Simon Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Music 428 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown And thanks 429 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: to the team at I Heart. I'm Carvelo Wallace. Thanks 430 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: for listening.