WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Gods Must Be Counterintuitive 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:08.600 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.200 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.640 Time to venture into the vault, this time for an 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.919 episode from August of This was an episode that I 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.360 really enjoyed where we got to talk about some of 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.759 the weirder grim fairy tales if I recall, Yeah, and 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.760 just like, how counterintuitive does a narrative need to be 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:29.880 to really work as a myth or a fairy tale? 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.560 And then at what point did it does it become 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.560 too convoluted to really have any staying power in the 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:38.840 in our zide geist. Uh? Yeah, it was a really 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.280 fun discussion. Now. I remember after this episode, I really 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:44.920 really wanted us to get in our T shirt store 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.640 online to get like a mock up of a cover 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.760 for what would be basically Walt Disney's The Donkey Cabbage Is. Uh, 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.440 you know what would that look like as a Disney poster? 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:56.840 And we never got to make that happen. But hey, 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.280 if you're an artist out there, especially if you're in 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.920 I don't know, ooster design or whatever, will you make 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.520 us a Walt Disney's The Donkey Cabbage Is poster or 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.080 VHS box cover. Oh yeah, and by the way, we 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.600 do love listener submitted art. If you're ever inspired to 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.240 create art based in an episode or a vault episode 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.760 that you hear, or if you're inspired to do so 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.640 based on an episode of Invention, feel free to send 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.000 it in. If it all possible, we'll use it on 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.120 like a future Listener mail episode. You know it's the 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.800 landing page art. Yeah, we can't, We can't pay you, 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.200 but you'll get all the credit in the Listener Mail episode. Absolutely. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.080 All right, Well, let's venture once more into the vault. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.600 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:50.360 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.160 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.080 This might be kind of a strange question, but if 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.760 I forced you to tell me the whole story Cinderella 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.680 on Command, do you think you could tell me that 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.280 folk tale? All right, it's not one of my favorite 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.200 folk tales, but I believe it goes something like this, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.440 poor lady puts on a magic shoe and becomes a 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.480 rich lady. Uh, the end you have? You have missed 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.080 some key elements, but I bet you could do it. 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.760 Come on you you know the story of Cinderella. Yeah, okay, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.800 so there's some magic mice in there that that talk 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:27.360 and have engaged in some some comic mischief with a cat. Uh. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.800 There's an evil stepmother. Uh. They're evil step sisters. And 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.880 I believe in the more uh, you know, classic versions 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.040 of the tale, the non Disney versions, there's a little 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.040 bit of like nasty uh torture revenge at the end. Yeah, 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.440 there's a lot of foot cutting and stuff like that 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.200 in the in the classic versions, as told by like 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.840 the brothers Grim and Charles Perrault. Uh. These old classic 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.560 folk tales that were collected hundreds of years ago often 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.720 had very strong, bloody, uh sadistic elements to them, but 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.200 they're also intensely memorable. Yeah. But at the same time, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.000 it's you know, you get down to its roots. I 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.640 feel like it's a deeply unpleasant story. And then even 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.720 in the Disney version, like Nobody Nobody turns into a dragon. 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.320 There are no monsters. There's you know a little bit 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.120 of magic, but it's it has it has a lot 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.560 to compete with with when it comes to other like 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:23.320 major uh you know, you know tent poles fairy tales. Well, Robert, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.400 you are a spoil sport for my examples today. Uh, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:28.640 come on, you you know the story of Cinderella. You 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.960 definitely know the story of Rapunzel. That's got some good 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.600 eye gouging and all kinds of hard nous h. But 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:36.920 what I bet you don't know is the story of 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.560 the donkey cabbage is a k a. The Donkey Lettuce. 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.600 This is true. I was not familiar with this tale 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.560 prior to this recording. Also a story recounted by the 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.600 brothers grim. It's a classic folk tale that that has 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.800 been put into these collections of folk tales, and I 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.560 think maybe I'm going to do the horrible, horrible act 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.080 of trying to tell it from memory. Okay, stop me 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.160 if this is getting on horble, Okay, Donkey cabbages. So 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.440 you've got a young huntsman. He goes out one day 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.240 into the forest and he comes across an old crone 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.480 in the forest, and the old crone is begging for alms. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.000 So he takes pity on her and he gives her 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.039 what he can afford. And she likes this. She's like, Wow, 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.080 you took pity on me. So I'm gonna give you 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.440 some advice. Up ahead in the forest, you're gonna come 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.320 across a tree that has nine birds in it, and 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.440 those birds are gonna be tearing at a cloak. Now, 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.359 what you need to do is shoot those birds, and 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.520 then one of them will fall dead, and you need 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.599 to take its heart out and eat it. And when 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.040 you eat the heart, every time, every time you wake up, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.040 after you eat that bird's heart, you will have a 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.520 piece of gold under your pillow. And also hang onto 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.320 that cloak, because by putting it on, you can wish 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:52.400 yourself into any place and magically appear there. So the 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.080 young huntsman walks a little bit further into the forest. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.440 Sure enough, he comes across the birds. He shoots into 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.159 the flock of birds, one of them falls dead. He 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:02.640 takes the cloak from the birds, and he cuts the 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.600 heart out of the dead bird and he eats it. 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.040 So then he goes home. He goes to sleep. Next day. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.160 Sure enough, there's gold under his pillow, and so he 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.000 waits a while accumulating the wealth, right the sleep wealth, 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.279 until he's got a good collection of gold. And now 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.040 he thinks time to go explore the world. Right, I'm 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.479 I'm young, I've got a magic transportation cloak, and I've 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.400 got gold under my pillow every night. So he goes 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.440 roman all over the place and eventually ends up at 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.160 a castle. At the castle, he sees another ugly old Crone, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.320 but not the original crone. This is a different crone 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.640 who is in fact a witch. And he sees a 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.720 beautiful young woman, and so he asks to be led 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.600 into the castle where there is a witch who knows 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.560 about his magical items and wants to take them. And 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.839 so the witch gets her beautiful young daughter to seduce 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.600 the huntsman so that they can steal his magical items. 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.400 And so, first of all, the young daughter gets him 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.000 to drink and poisonous draft that the witch has created 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.840 that will cause him to vomit up the bird heart 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.320 that he ate. And so she gets him to drink 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.479 that he vomits up the bird heart. She takes it 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.800 and she eats it, so now she can get the 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.840 Now she can get the gold under the pillow. Second thing, 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.080 the young the young beautiful daughter takes him up on 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.680 the mountains one day by saying, oh, I wish you 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.240 could use that cloak of transportation to take me where 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.200 we can gather some gyms up in the mountains, so 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.200 they travel there together with the use of the magic cloak, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.159 and then while he is drowsy on the mountain, she 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.240 steals the cloak from him and leaves him there. He 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.760 comes across some giants on the mountain, and the giants 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.960 they discussed whether or not they should kill him, but 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.520 eventually they decide, now we'll just leave him here because 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.520 eventually the clouds will carry him away. So the young 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.200 huntsman gets carried away by the clouds. He ends up 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.560 getting deposited in the field of cabbage is. He's hungry 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.640 and so he eats some of the cabbage. This cabbage 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.840 transforms him into a donkey. He doesn't really like being 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.919 transformed into a donkey, but he eats some other cabbin 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.799 from a nearby field and transforms back into a human. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.160 He realizes that each of these fields grows cabbage. One 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.400 type of cabbage transforms people into donkeys, the other type 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.040 transforms donkeys into people. So he takes cabbages of both 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:15.960 kinds and he goes back to the castle. He goes 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.880 to the old witch and tricks her into eating some 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.480 of the bad cabbage that turns you into a donkey. 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.880 The old witch turns into a donkey. He also accidentally 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.360 tricks the maid servant and the young daughter who are 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.040 at the castle also into eating the donkey cabbage, and 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.760 they turn into donkeys. Then he takes the donkeys to 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.880 a miller and he tells the miller to basically tells 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.440 them to mistreat the old donkey and to be nicer 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.120 to the young donkeys. The miller comes back to him 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.160 a little while after that and says, well, your old 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.000 donkey died, and the other two they're not going to 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.880 hang on much longer. But then the huntsman he relents 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.840 from his revenge and he says, you know what, I'll 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.280 transform those donkeys back into people. So he gives them 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.560 the good cabbage that transformed back into humans, and then 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.120 the the which his daughter and he get married and 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.240 they live happily ever after. Well that is quite a story, Joe. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.640 If it were, I would say it was. It would 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.080 be pretty great if it were. If this was a 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.560 summary of kind of like a freewheeling like randomly generated 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.120 like dungeons and dragons in a series of encounters, you know, 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:21.680 because it has that kind of vibe to it, Like 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.960 there's just kind of a seeming randomness to it. The magic, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:32.080 it feels convoluted, the characters are confusing. The moral message 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.560 of the piece is uh is equally lost on me. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.680 Um now, I certainly. Well it's sort of a weird 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.800 revenge story. Yeah, but it it really takes this time 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:46.800 getting there. It's kind of it does kind of feel 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.720 like a winding Goat trail to nowhere. Uh, it's shaggy 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.640 dog story. Yeah. But but at the same time, it 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.960 does remind me of some of I mean, I've had 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.160 this experience with other folk tales before, where you start 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.200 reading it and it seems to be kind of going 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.240 in circles and it's making nonsensical choices. But then I 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:11.080 often end up reminding myself, well, I'm not encountering this 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.800 story in its original language. I am not a part 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.080 of the culture that that it was the intended. Uh, 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.959 you know, listener to the to the tale. Like I've 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.120 had a similar situation watching some of the old Russo 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.800 Finish fairytale epics. Oh, like Jack Frost, the one they 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.440 did on Mystery Science Theater three thousand, which is just 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.000 the best. Yeah, it's one of my favorite episode. It's 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.760 tremendous in the movie itself. That's father measure. I mean, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.880 the movie is beautiful. I mean that if you challenge 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.520 anyone who has only seen that MST three K episode 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:46.280 to to look online and find a more pristine, uh 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.320 copy of it, because the footage is just beautiful. It's 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.400 this is a high budget film at the time. But 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.800 the story, yeah, for for for non russo finished viewers, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.200 I guess it it is confusing and you kind of 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.679 lose track of like what magical piece of magic is 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.360 in play and what's the what's the morality of the 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.560 character turning in like having his head turned into the 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.719 head of a bear and then he he loses the 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:13.680 head of a bear just for promising to be good 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:16.920 to the outsider. That story just feels like the hell 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.400 you go to if you get killed in the Tiger 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.360 by a gnome. But it reminds me a bit of 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.719 Donkey Cabbages. Well yeah, so, I guess that the big 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.640 question that we're we've we've led ourselves to at this 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.920 point is like what is what is ultimately the difference? 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.440 What what makes one story Cinderella and one story uh 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.720 Donkey Cabbages and why does Cinderella stick with us, whereas 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.720 donkey cabbage is is just it's just leaking through your 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.080 your fingers almost immediately upon grasping it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.360 one thing is that Cinderella is not just the the 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.319 sort of European tradition grim fairy tale Cinderella. They're Cinderella 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.240 type stories all over the world. This is almost one 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.120 of those those horror stories you know that seems to 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.480 have an ancient prototype that filters into cultures all around 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.360 the world or maybe has parallel development because it's themes 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:13.200 are so basic. Um, Cinderella is a widely known, widely distributed, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:19.559 ineradicable myth. Meanwhile, donkey cabbages is it feels like donkey 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.000 cabbages could disappear from the earth and we would all 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.600 be poorer for having lost donkey cabbages because I kind 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.840 of love donkey cabbages, but nobody not that many people 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.800 would notice it was missing, right, Um, it has not 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.840 penetrated the culture in the same way that the Cinderella 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.520 archetype narrative has. And so the question is why are 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.560 some narratives more successful than others, Like you're saying, what 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:47.560 makes one story? Uh, the the the narrative equivalent of 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.400 a highly successful insect species and the other one and 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:56.240 endangered species. Why is donkey cabbages endangered while Cinderella is thriving. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.040 It would be a shame if we lost donkey cabbages forever, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.320 But it seems like that's much more plausible of an 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.040 outcome than losing Cinderella. Right, Okay, Well, we'll come back 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.640 to this question in just a minute. First, let's explore 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.600 a related question and see how these two subjects come together. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.400 This question is why do religions emerge and what makes 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.920 one religion more successful than another in the same way 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.120 that one narrative can be more successful than another. You know, 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.480 we've talked before on the show about all of the 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.800 various psychological and biological explanations that people think may exist 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.840 for the emergence of religions. I think I think it's 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.000 safe to say this is not a subject where there 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.319 is a settled, known answer, But there are some answers 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.240 that seem more plausible than others, right, And I mean, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.160 you have some answers are certainly models for how it 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.240 could occur. And I am often inclined to think, well, 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.200 it's probably multiple different models at once. Of course, it's 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.319 it's hard to just say that, like, this is the 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.920 equation for religion in human culture. Yeah, there's probably not 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.400 one cause of the emergence of religion, But what are 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:04.800 the dominant physical, biological, psychological factors that make a religion 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.600 a thing that exists? Why did how did we get 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:09.200 this way? Now some of you might be wondering what 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:10.960 you were talking about fairy tales, now you're talking about 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.880 about religion. You know, what is the connection between Cinderella 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.840 and the great religions of the modern world or the 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.400 ancient world or the ancient world? I mean, obviously one 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.679 of the big ones is that there is any religion 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.280 you look at, there is going to be some sort 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.600 of narrative or narratives that they're at the heart of 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.360 its sacred narratives upon which it is based. Yeah, there 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.600 are almost no successful religions that don't have at least 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.440 some strong narrative component in them. And uh, and so 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.720 obviously narrative might might be the common thread between the 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.600 success of folklore and the success of a religion. Yeah, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.199 religions tend to have heroes. They didn't have villains. They 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.959 they they are stories. That have just taken on a 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.720 grander cultural and personal meaning. So as far as the 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.679 emergence of religion explanation goes that, there are a lot 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.400 of ideas that have been put forward by scholars over 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.920 the years. I know, actually recently, Robert, you talked a 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.040 little bit to Barbara J. King about this at the 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:09.240 World Science Festival, like what psychological drives and biological drives 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.520 play into the emergence of religion? And I know part 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.679 of her answer had to do with with social cohesion 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.560 and stuff, right, yeah, and in grieving and bereavement and 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.880 sort of the the precursors to grieving and bereavement that 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.640 it can arguably be identified in in certain animals, such 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:32.480 as some of our closer primate relatives exactly. Another very 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.800 common explanation from evolutionary psychology is the idea of the 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.920 hyperactive agency detection. And we've talked about this on the 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.760 show before, but the basic idea here is that there's 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.240 going to be an evolutionary selection pressure in favor of 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.840 people who are over sensitive about the possibility of detecting agents, 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:55.160 meaning beings with intentions like animals or other people from 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.520 ambiguous data. So the classic example as you imagine two 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.440 different scenarios. One is you hear a twig breaking in 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.720 the forest at night and you think it's a tiger, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.240 or you know it's my nemesis, Jeffrey and he's come 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.160 for his revenge, and then you raise your guard and 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.960 try to get yourself out of the situation safely. The 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.280 other scenario is you hear a twig breaking in the 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.680 forest at night and you think it's probably nothing. You 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.760 just keep collecting firewood, and then I don't know, maybe 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.920 break some other horror movie sins. You split up, you 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.040 drink some beer, you do all the bad stuff. Those 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.520 are the very people who either are either eaten by 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.280 tigers are killed by Jeffrey. Right, So the people in 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.400 the latter scenario are probably going to be correct more 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.400 often right. More often it's probably nothing, But there's a 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.720 relatively small benefit to being correct. The person in the 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.840 first situation who's afraid hyper aware of what might be 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.600 an animal or a person, some kind of intentional agent. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.280 They might waste some time and energy being overly cautious, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.920 but they're less likely to get killed in the off 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.960 chance that they're correct about detecting an agent. And so 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.040 because this person survives more often the genes that put 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.560 them on the hyper active lookout for people or for animals. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.280 These intentional agents, those genes proliferate in the gene pool 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.760 and this causes us to read intentions into our environment 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.120 at an unusual rate just to be safe. And this 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.400 reading of intentions into all kinds of random phenomena lead 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.840 us to the belief that there actually our minds controlling 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.840 events that we don't understand, in essence to the idea 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.680 of God's So that's one interesting possible explanation. There's also 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.280 like the meme obedience duality, which basically says there's a 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.720 selection advantage for children with brains that tend to tell 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.800 them to believe what adults tell them. You know, if 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.160 you are warned that it's dangerous to leave the camp 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.240 fire at night, more children who believe that warning and 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.360 accepted are going to survive to adulthood. And then pigging 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.960 backing on this, you'd eventually have adults spreading religious memes 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.560 by telling myths, stories, folk tales, and the beneficial belief 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.080 in obedience mechanism that causes children to survive after a 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.360 warning not to leave the firelight also causes them to 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.320 take these stories very seriously, to believe them, to pay 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.040 heed to their values. But whatever the actual biological and 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.040 psychological reasons for the emergence of religion, it leads to 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.359 this question that we asked a minute ago of why 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.440 some religions are more successful than others. I mean, there 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.640 are tons of religions throughout human history that have been 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.000 invented and now they're extinct, and very few people ever 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.200 followed them. Right, So they winted that the ancient Egyptian religion, 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.639 why is it? Why has it not survived in a 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.320 in a real tangible sense in the modern age? Why 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.480 did it not even travel well beyond Egypt in its 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.800 own day? But even it was relatively successful last time. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.480 I mean, think about all the variations on it, or 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.920 all of the other types of mythologies that got started 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.000 but never really went anywhere. I think of all the 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.040 cults that emerge that we know relatively little about. I 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.760 think of all the heresies that were that were squashed 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.840 out before they could be really take a name beyond 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.840 heresy exactly. I think because you think about how we 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.119 refer to them, we don't even refer to them as religions. 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.480 They were just upstarts that were destroyed by the more 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.560 popular and powerful models of belief exactly. So the question 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.119 we want to look at today is could the variable 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.080 success of new religions have anything to do with the 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.280 question we were asking a minute ago why some folk 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.480 tales and legends are more successful than others, Because, Robert, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.360 as you mentioned a minute ago, what religions and and 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.760 folklore have in common is narrative. Almost all of the 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.720 world's religions past and present have major narrative elements. They're 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.280 based on stories. Um So, even though there are other 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.040 components to religions, we know there's metaphysical incentives, a sense 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.280 of meaning, social inclusion, and all that stuff. Since the 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.240 narrative element is so common, wouldn't it be reasonable to 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.280 guess that part of what makes a successful religion is 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:02.159 containing successful stories, the right kind of stories that you know, 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:03.840 made me feel a little bit good and also makes 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.840 me feel a little bit bad and just the right way. Right, 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.600 A good religious narrative, it hurts so good. Uh So 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.720 this this could be wrong. I mean, maybe a narrative 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.600 is not actually a major element, but I think it's 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.679 a very reasonable starting assumption. And if this is the 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.199 case that the success of a narrative plays into the 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.919 success of a religion? What makes a story that leads 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.600 to a successful faith? Maybe we should take a quick 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:32.760 break and then explore more when we come back. Alright, 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.880 we're back. So we've asked the question what sort of narrative, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.840 what kind of story is going to make a religion successful? 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.600 Or just make a story of a fairy tale successful? 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.639 In general? Like, what what are the elements that are 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.800 going to get guarantee that it resonates and remains in 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.000 human culture? Yeah, I guess maybe it makes sense to 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:55.320 start with narratives and then see how this applies to religions. Um, 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.920 so it's time to explore. Basically, I would say the 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.400 key idea of this episode the idea of what's come 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:05.720 to be known as minimally counterintuitive elements of belief. Now 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.840 we can't know for sure what makes one religion or 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.280 one story more successful than another, and it is probably 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.359 due to multiple factors rather than just one. But this 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:19.720 minimally counterintuitive elements paradigm, I think is a really clever answer, 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.399 offering what I guess is an important part of the 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:27.160 picture of the comparative success of stories. Narratives and belief structures. 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.760 There have been a ton of papers investigating this over 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.240 the years, a lot of studies, but I thought we 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.520 should examine the issue through one one important study from 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.440 the year two thousand six, and that's a paper published 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.879 in Cognitive Science by Aura norn Zion's got A tran 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:47.040 Jason Faulkner, and Mark Schaller called Memory and Mystery the 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.560 cultural selection of minimally counterintuitive narratives. So I want to 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.840 read a quote from their introduction starts to set the 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.720 scene for why memory would be a relevant issue. Here 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.800 the author's right quote. Of the many ecological and psychological 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:04.120 factors that influence the extent to which any such narrative 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:09.679 achieves cultural success, Mnemonic resilience maybe one of the most important. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:15.440 Memorability places necessary constraints on the cultural transmission of narratives 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:20.159 and ideas in oral traditions that characterize most of human 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:24.959 cultures throughout history. A narrative cannot be transmitted and achieve 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.040 cultural success unless it stands the test of memory. So, 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.040 in other words, in the telephone game of belief, you've 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.240 got to have a core story that is going to 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.840 remain more or less intact with each retelling in each embellishment. Yeah, 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.119 and I mean part of the problem is that most 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.520 of human history, most people have not had access to 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:50.320