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Speaker 1: Hey, or hey, where do you get all your energy from?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean? Well, you know you do this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we write books, you run a TV show, you survive

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Speaker 1: as a parent. What powers all of that activity? Fear? Maybe? Now,

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Speaker 1: mostly it's just it is that it really just been

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Speaker 1: in this. There's no other secret sauce you think I

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Speaker 1: have like an arc reactor in my chest like Iron Man.

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Speaker 1: It does seem like a superhuman level of activity. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: should be a Marvel character like Nanimate procrasta man Now,

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Speaker 1: I like Vnanim. I'll contact Marvel. I'll tell him it's

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Speaker 1: very appealing, all right, I hope they don't slip up.

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Speaker 1: Hi I am or am a cartoonists and the creator

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Speaker 1: of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist

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Speaker 1: and a professor at u C Irvine where we have

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Speaker 1: a working nuclear reactor. Oh my goodness. Is this out

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Speaker 1: of your garage or like in your office or do

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Speaker 1: you have an actual lab? No, under the chemistry building

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Speaker 1: there is a functioning nuclear reactor which you can go

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Speaker 1: and visit and like glows blue and everything. Is that

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Speaker 1: a good idea to put it under? Like a campus

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Speaker 1: full of thousands of kids? Well, I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: we weren't going to put it under the physics building.

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Speaker 1: That's why it ended up under the chemistry building. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I see, the chemistry people are more expendable. I didn't

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Speaker 1: say that. I'm just happy to not have it in

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Speaker 1: my building. They're just danser and can absorb all of

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Speaker 1: the you know, particles that come out. But it's pretty

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Speaker 1: cool to visit and to like imagine all those crazy

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Speaker 1: particle things happening right down in there. But anyways, welcome

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Speaker 1: to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio in which we do get

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Speaker 1: right down in there. We talk about all of the crazy,

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Speaker 1: amazing things that are really happening out there in the universe.

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Speaker 1: This chaotic buzz of insanity which is reality, is the

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Speaker 1: subject of the podcast and the thing that we try

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Speaker 1: to explain, and we shy away from none of it,

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Speaker 1: from the tiniest little things to the hugest, vastest mysteries

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Speaker 1: of the deepest cosmos. We attack all of it and

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Speaker 1: explain all of it to you. That's right, because the

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Speaker 1: universe sort of doesn't sleep. There's always something going on

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Speaker 1: in the universe, making energy exploding and crashing into each other.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing to think about the idea that we

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Speaker 1: could one day understand all of it. That is a

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Speaker 1: crazy idea I've never heard before, that the universe might

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Speaker 1: even sleep, you know, like imagine if like all of

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Speaker 1: physics went to bed at night and just like stopped

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Speaker 1: happening to a nap, cosmic nap, like the universe take

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Speaker 1: a break for a minute. Let us catch up. We're

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Speaker 1: still figuring things out. I mean, that's what's going on

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Speaker 1: inside of black holes. It's just you know where the

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Speaker 1: universe goes to take a nap. Oh yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: like a Google where they have nap pods. This is

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Speaker 1: where like particles can go to take a break. Finally,

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Speaker 1: like these folk, time has been going for billions of

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Speaker 1: years without stopping. Who take a load off? You think

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Speaker 1: the universe needs a vacation or something. You think the

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Speaker 1: universe is tired. It seems to be pretty active and

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Speaker 1: picking up on energy with its expansion. That's true. The

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Speaker 1: universe does seem relentless, and so there's a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in the universe, and sometimes we wonder how does

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Speaker 1: all this energy go out into the universe? That's right,

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Speaker 1: because all the stuff around us contains an incredible amount

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Speaker 1: of energy. All the matter around you are these tiny

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Speaker 1: little systems bound together with incredibly strong forces, which, if

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Speaker 1: manipulated in just the right way, can release them in

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Speaker 1: incredible bursts of energy. Yeah, and somehow, throughout the years,

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Speaker 1: humans have figured out how to sort of take advantage

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Speaker 1: of this idea of releasing the energy that stored inside

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Speaker 1: of the bonds of the things that make up the universe,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes for not so

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Speaker 1: great reasons. That's right. And you can see around you

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Speaker 1: in the night sky, for example, fusion reactions happening that

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Speaker 1: last millions and billions of years. At the heart of stars,

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Speaker 1: of course, is a kind of a nuclear reactor. Down

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Speaker 1: here on Earth. We don't see that as often, thankfully,

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Speaker 1: but we've been able to sort of engineer similar stuff

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Speaker 1: happening so we can take advantage of it and empower

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Speaker 1: our air conditioners. Yeah, anytime that you hear a pop

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Speaker 1: out in your daily life, it's probably some sort of

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Speaker 1: chemical bond breaking up and releasing energy out into the world.

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Speaker 1: Does that happen to you a lot? You just like

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Speaker 1: turn around and hear something pop. Isn't that what happens

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Speaker 1: every time you hear a car running? I have an

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Speaker 1: electric car now, so it's totally silent. Oh interesting. Now

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Speaker 1: you can sneak up on people. That's exactly why I

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Speaker 1: got it. I can sneak up on them and like

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Speaker 1: steal a look of their ice cream code or something.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is a little disturbing. You're like

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Speaker 1: the ice cream bandit, the electric ice cream bandit. I've

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Speaker 1: never actually done that, but now every time I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get in my car, I'm going to think about maybe

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Speaker 1: doing that. But yeah, it's sort of an interesting idea

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Speaker 1: to think about the humans sort of harnessing this power

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Speaker 1: of this ability to kind of really the energy inside

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Speaker 1: of everyday matter, right. I guess we started it with fire.

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Speaker 1: Fire maybe was the first sort of maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: chemical energy causing reaction that we came up with. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think about it as if matter is like a

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Speaker 1: bunch of tiny little springs bound together, and if you

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Speaker 1: find just the right way to release those springs, you

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Speaker 1: can capture all that energy and use it for something else.

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Speaker 1: And exactly, fire is just that there are chemical bonds

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Speaker 1: stored within the carbon and the other elements within wood,

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Speaker 1: for example, and heat will release them in this chain reaction.

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Speaker 1: That's the magic, where some energy is released and then

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Speaker 1: it causes the neighbors to release their energy, which causes

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Speaker 1: the neighbors to release their energy. And that's the magic,

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Speaker 1: because you don't want to release the energy of just

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Speaker 1: like one atom. Yeah, and so we figured out fire,

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Speaker 1: and then eventually humans invented I guess it explosives and

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Speaker 1: gasoline and engines and and so we're pretty good, it

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Speaker 1: seems at kind of releasing that energy, at least the

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Speaker 1: chemical kind. Yeah, we are. And all these things so

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Speaker 1: far also happened in nature, right, Like fire is started

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Speaker 1: by lightning, and most of the chemical chain reactions that

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Speaker 1: humans have taken advantage of you can also see happening

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Speaker 1: in nature. Yeah, and eventually we were able to harness

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Speaker 1: the energy inside of atoms, right, I mean, we've figured

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Speaker 1: out fusion and fission for both reactors and bombs, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And I actually grew up in the town where the

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Speaker 1: bombs were invented, in Los Almos. So this, like capturing

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Speaker 1: the power at the heart of an atom, is sort

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Speaker 1: of essential theme to my childhood. There's a certain glow

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Speaker 1: about new Daniel. No, that's all the plutonium aid as

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Speaker 1: a child. I see that's different. All right, Well, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we made fusion and fission bombs. And as you were saying, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: fusion happens a lot in nature. It happens naturally every

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Speaker 1: time there's a sun, and every time you look out

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Speaker 1: into the night sky, each one of those stars is

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Speaker 1: a fusion reactors. There's basically an ongoing fusion bomb at

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Speaker 1: each one of those pinpoints in the sky. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome because it's a fusion bomb into continuous explosion

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Speaker 1: that's also held in place by gravity. So it's like

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Speaker 1: a stable reaction, which you know we've discovered is not

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Speaker 1: that easy to engineer, but the universe has done it.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing to me that stars exist and that they

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Speaker 1: last for so long. Yeah, definitely, this night sky would

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Speaker 1: be a lot less prettier without fusion and stars in it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what would Van Go have painted in Starry Night,

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Speaker 1: the Blackie Blackie Nights? Yeah? Yeah, So the stars are fusion,

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Speaker 1: and so we know that happens out in nature a lot.

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Speaker 1: But the fission is different than fusion, right, it's sort

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Speaker 1: of the opposite of fusion, that's right. Fusion is when

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Speaker 1: you squeeze together light nuclei to make heavier ones, like

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Speaker 1: squeeze hydrogen together to make helium. But fission is when

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Speaker 1: you start with something which is already big and heavy,

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Speaker 1: like uranium or plutonium, and your crack it into smaller nuclei,

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Speaker 1: which also releases energy. Right, And so fission is the

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Speaker 1: one that I think maybe most people associate with nuclear

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Speaker 1: power right here on Earth, that that humans have been

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Speaker 1: able to engineer. Right. I think most nuclear power plants

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Speaker 1: and the nuclear bombs that we've made, and the people

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Speaker 1: were about our fission, right, that's right. All of the

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Speaker 1: nuclear power plants are fission. We're working on fusion plants,

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Speaker 1: but nobody's really made that work yet. Our nuclear weapons,

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Speaker 1: and initially we're fission because it's simpler and easier to

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Speaker 1: get to work, but then more recently they are fusion

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Speaker 1: powered because there's much more destructive. Actually, some of our

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Speaker 1: nuclear weapons are fission bombs that are used just to

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Speaker 1: trigger a fusion reaction. So they're like fission and fusion.

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Speaker 1: It's a fusion of fission and it's insane. It's like,

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Speaker 1: how do you light a fusion bomb. You need a

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Speaker 1: fission bomb just to get it going, just give it

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Speaker 1: a little extra fuss. But yeah, I guess there's sort

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Speaker 1: of this weird thing that you know, we can't quite

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Speaker 1: make fusion power happen here on Earth, but it hadn't

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Speaker 1: happening all over the universe. And but then we can

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Speaker 1: make fission bombs and fission reactors here on Earth. We've

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Speaker 1: gone pretty good at engineering those, but maybe don't quite

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Speaker 1: see them out there in the universe as much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fission reactors take really special conditions which you don't find

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Speaker 1: out there in the universe. And it makes me wonder

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Speaker 1: like our humans the only ones who are doing this

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Speaker 1: are these react actions only happening in our laboratories. And

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Speaker 1: so to be on the podcast, we'll be asking the

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Speaker 1: question can a fission reactor happen naturally? And Daniel, this

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Speaker 1: isn't one of those episodes where we actually like tell

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Speaker 1: people how to make afficient bomb or something dangerous out there.

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Speaker 1: It's not another one of those episodes, is it. No,

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Speaker 1: this is not in the Supervillain how to series. Check

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Speaker 1: out our YouTube series on how to become a super

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Speaker 1: Villain using physics, So check out our lessons on our website.

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Speaker 1: First adopt a white cat, second by a volcano. Shave

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Speaker 1: your head? What you got to shave your head? I'm out,

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Speaker 1: nothing's worth that. Let's be honest. We're almost at the

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Speaker 1: battling stage anyway. Not me, I'm and I still have

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Speaker 1: a vibrant head of hair, not a single gray It's

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Speaker 1: all that plutonium. It's all that plutonium exactly. Yeah. But anyways,

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Speaker 1: so I guess the question is, like, can we know

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Speaker 1: that a fusion reactor happens naturally nature? It's on every

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Speaker 1: at the center of every star. But the question is

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Speaker 1: does a fission reactor happen naturally in the universe? Like,

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Speaker 1: can you have a fission star even out there in space? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we actually did a whole episode about can you have

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Speaker 1: stars that are run by fishing? That was a listener question,

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Speaker 1: which is super awesome, and we decided it might be possible,

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Speaker 1: but it was very unlikely to arrange the circumstances necessary.

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Speaker 1: And what we'll discover in today's episode is that fission

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Speaker 1: is delicate and you have to have just the right

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Speaker 1: conditions arranged in just the right way at just the

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Speaker 1: right time to make it happen, or you need clever

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Speaker 1: human engineers. Well, it seems kind of weird to me, right,

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Speaker 1: because it seems generally that it's easier to break things

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Speaker 1: than it is to put them back together. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of weird to think that fission is sort of

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Speaker 1: like rarer or harder to achieve. Yeah, that's true. All

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Speaker 1: though the products that you need for fission, the heavy stuff,

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Speaker 1: are generally more rare than the products you need for fusion,

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Speaker 1: which is the light stuff. Like, remember, the universe still

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Speaker 1: mostly hydrogen. We've been working at it for fourteen billion

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Speaker 1: years and still most of the stuff in the universe

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Speaker 1: is just what it started as, which is hydrogen. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: as usual, we were wondering how many people out there

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Speaker 1: have thought about this question and knew whether nuclear fission

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Speaker 1: reactors can happen in nature. So Daniel went out there

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Speaker 1: into the Internet to ask people this question. So thank

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Speaker 1: you denizens of the Internet for answering these questions. And

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Speaker 1: if you are a denizen of the Internet and have

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Speaker 1: not yet answered our questions, we want to hear your voice,

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Speaker 1: especially if you have a super awesome, unusual, weird voice

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Speaker 1: that people would like to listen to. But even if

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Speaker 1: you don't and you like answering random questions, shoot us

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Speaker 1: a note to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com.

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Speaker 1: Here's what people had to say. I don't think nuclear

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Speaker 1: fission can occur naturally because you always hear about how

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Speaker 1: lighter elements, for like fuse to form heavier elements, and

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Speaker 1: that's how all the heavier elements in the universe have

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Speaker 1: been formed. But you never hear anything about the opposite

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Speaker 1: reverse and like there's no splitting, there's no creation of

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Speaker 1: more sort of hydrogen that you hear of. My initial

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Speaker 1: response was, yes, nuclear fission occurs in nature naturally, and

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Speaker 1: it was just a trick from nature that we've copied.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I don't see nuclear bombs

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Speaker 1: spontaneously going off in nature underground all the time, so

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Speaker 1: maybe not. But I can also imagine that in high

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Speaker 1: energy occurrences like a Supernovy or other I energy occurrences,

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Speaker 1: stuff gets bombarded with neutrons and adams split. So I

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Speaker 1: still have to go with yes, but I'm not totally certain.

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Speaker 1: I would like to think so, but I think most

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Speaker 1: nuclear fission that I know about is something man made,

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Speaker 1: so maybe well, since we full split atoms in duicular, reactors.

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Speaker 1: Um it sounds like gonna be a bit scary if

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Speaker 1: it happened anywhere on Earth naturally. Yes, I believe it can.

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Speaker 1: I think there's an example of it having happened to

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Speaker 1: something billion years ago in continental Africa somewhere. I don't

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Speaker 1: know of any other examples, but I believe it can

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Speaker 1: happen naturally. Quite sure that the strong forces which I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure keeps those nuclear together, some electrom and egg

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Speaker 1: forces keeping it together, that they would take a lot

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Speaker 1: to oppose that. So I'm thinking maybe in some sort

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Speaker 1: of extreme gravity situation. But but still I still think

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Speaker 1: it's nuclear too small and the strong forces too strong

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Speaker 1: too to have some sort of nuclear fission occur naturally.

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Speaker 1: I think it's naturally. I don't know how to explain it,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know how. I do not know if

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Speaker 1: nuclear fission occurs naturally, but I assume it does because

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Speaker 1: the vast quantities of different elements the universe has so

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Speaker 1: sure what's happened before in the universe all right on

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Speaker 1: the whole, it seems like most people thought that yes,

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Speaker 1: the answer was yes, that you can have fission out

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Speaker 1: there in nature happened naturally. Yeah, And I think this

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Speaker 1: is motivated by the general feeling that like, wow, it's

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Speaker 1: a big universe, and everything you imagine might happen is

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Speaker 1: probably out there happening somewhere. They've heard our podcast so

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Speaker 1: much that now they just assume that anything that sounds

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Speaker 1: crazy is happening somewhere, at least in one spot in

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Speaker 1: this infinite universe. And it's a good motivation, you know.

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Speaker 1: After physicists take advantage of that all the time. They

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Speaker 1: can't like do experiments like what happens when two neutron

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Speaker 1: stars collide. You can't build a neutron star collider. So

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Speaker 1: you just look out in the universe and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's watch and see if we spotted happening, and then

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Speaker 1: we can do our experiment effectively. Yeah, so I guess them,

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Speaker 1: why do you Why do we even need to hire you, Daniel?

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Speaker 1: Somebody's got to eat the plutonium man. Yeah, somebody's gonna

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Speaker 1: make the banana jokes. All right. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: this question of whether or not nuclear fish in reactors

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Speaker 1: can happen naturally out there in the universe. And so,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I guess let's step through it in

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Speaker 1: more detail. What is nuclear fission. So fission is when

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Speaker 1: you break up heavy nuclei into smaller atoms. So everything

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Speaker 1: above iron, everything that's heavier than iron, that has more

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Speaker 1: protons in the nucleus than iron, if you're cracking in half,

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Speaker 1: then you release energy and you make two smaller nuclei, right,

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Speaker 1: Because I guess all matter, all the stuff we're made

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Speaker 1: out of, is made out of atoms, and an atom

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Speaker 1: is in nucleus with electrons flying around it, and so

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Speaker 1: the only difference between like uranium and carbon is just

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Speaker 1: how much stuff is in the nucleus, right, which is

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Speaker 1: just protons and neutrons exactly. And the thing that defines

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Speaker 1: an element is the number of protons in itsel If

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Speaker 1: you add a proton, you change the charge because protons

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Speaker 1: are charged, and then you need another electron, and that

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Speaker 1: changes the fundamental chemical reactions that it can be involved in.

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Speaker 1: Is that changes sort of the identity of it. And

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Speaker 1: you can add neutrons if you like. New strons are neutrals,

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Speaker 1: so they don't take change to charge and don't require

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Speaker 1: another electron, but it does give you another isotope. And

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Speaker 1: as you add protons and neutrons, things get heavy, and

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Speaker 1: there are some arrangements that are stable, they can hang

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Speaker 1: out basically forever. But there are lots of these arrangements

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Speaker 1: which are not stable, which will eventually just sort of

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Speaker 1: break up on their own. We had a whole fun

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Speaker 1: podcast about really heavy elements and which ones are stable

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Speaker 1: and which ones are not stable, which you can check

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Speaker 1: out if you're interested in the nuclear physics of it.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that you're saying the identity of atoms

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Speaker 1: has all everything to do with the protons in it.

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Speaker 1: So like hydrogen just has one proton in the middle,

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Speaker 1: but uranium has like two five protons, typically hundreds of

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Speaker 1: protons in the nucleus. Uranium has ninety two protons in it,

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Speaker 1: but it occurs in nature in a couple of different isotopes.

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Speaker 1: Uranium two thirty five or two thirty five refers to

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Speaker 1: the number of protons and neutrons together, So if you

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Speaker 1: do some quick math, you can discover uranium two thirty

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Speaker 1: five has nine two protons and a hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: three neutrons stuffed into it. And it's also uranium two

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Speaker 1: thirty eight, which comes with three more neutrons, and so

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Speaker 1: most of the uranium out there is you two thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: which is much more stable. You two thirty five is

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Speaker 1: more rare and much more useful actually for fission, right, right,

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Speaker 1: And but you know they're not as good as you two.

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Speaker 1: I think they've been working on it for a lot

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Speaker 1: longer though, still waiting to have that breakthrough album. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot more heavy metal. Maybe there are no

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Speaker 1: hit wonder now I'm just kidding, I think. I think

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Speaker 1: what you're saying is that, you know, uranium has ninety

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Speaker 1: two protons and i'm a whole bunch of neutrons, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like legos, right, Like you can just

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Speaker 1: add these building blocks and you get different atoms, which

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Speaker 1: means at some point you could potentially break them apart

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Speaker 1: to get two of the lighter elements, right, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: You break up that nucleus, and then you share those protons,

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Speaker 1: those n protons between the products, and so you get

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Speaker 1: things made out of smaller numbers of protons. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: so that's a fission action. That's nuclear fission, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And nuclear fission mostly we do it with uranium two

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Speaker 1: thirty five and sometimes with plutonium two thirty nine, where

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Speaker 1: again the number is the total number of protons and

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Speaker 1: neutrons together, and so in most nuclear reactors that generate power,

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Speaker 1: you have either uranium two thirty five or plutonium two

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Speaker 1: thirty nine, all right, And so somehow breaking up the

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Speaker 1: inside of an atom, the nucleus of an atom into

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Speaker 1: smaller elements, somehow that crew releases a whole bunch of energy, right,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of weird to think about if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, right, like, why would breaking something release energy? Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: because there's energy stored in there. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: imagine if you like mechanical analogies, you can imagine like

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Speaker 1: that they're stored in there with a bunch of springs

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Speaker 1: that are really tautly wound together, and when you break it,

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Speaker 1: what happens is that the springs release and they shoot

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Speaker 1: the parts out, and there's parts are now moving really

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Speaker 1: really fast. So the energy that was stored in that

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Speaker 1: spring has now been transformed into the motion of the

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Speaker 1: particles that are flying out. And that's essentially it's happening here,

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Speaker 1: except instead of having like literal springs, you have gluons,

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Speaker 1: the carriers of the strong force that are tying these

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Speaker 1: things together. There's a lot of energy in those bonds,

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Speaker 1: and when you break it up, that energy is released

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Speaker 1: and the particles come out moving really quickly. I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe it might help if we maybe talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what's actually going on. Like if I break

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Speaker 1: a banana and two or if I break my cell

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Speaker 1: phone or something like, I don't get a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy getting released, right, Like, things are breaking and bonds

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Speaker 1: are breaking, but there's not a lot of like where

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Speaker 1: does that energy come from? Actually, yeah, well, if you

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Speaker 1: do break a banana and half or you break your

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Speaker 1: cell phone and half, you are breaking bonds. Those are

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Speaker 1: chemical bonds, right, Those are bonds between atoms, and the

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Speaker 1: atoms are not changing. You might be taking a molecule

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Speaker 1: and breaking into its atoms, or you might be just

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Speaker 1: sort of like cracking a crystal a long you know,

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Speaker 1: a part of its lattice, and so their bonds between

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Speaker 1: molecules that are being released. But you don't notice any

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Speaker 1: energy being released there because the energy is really really small.

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Speaker 1: But when you break a nucleus in half, then the

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Speaker 1: energy released is huge and the and it's much bigger.

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Speaker 1: It's because the strong forces involved in the strong force

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Speaker 1: as well, it's really strong and so it has a

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Speaker 1: lot of energy stored inside these atoms. It's much stronger

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Speaker 1: than the electromagnetic force, which is one that's holding your

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Speaker 1: banana or your cell phone together. I guess it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like you say that, like there's a spring holding

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Speaker 1: these these nuclear particles together, and so suddenly if you

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Speaker 1: like detach those springs, they're gonna spring out, right, all

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Speaker 1: that sort of stretched energy has to go somewhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like a jack in the box, right,

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Speaker 1: and you open the top and boom, everything pops out.

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Speaker 1: Or it's like you know, one of those cans full

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Speaker 1: of snakes, so you open it up and like bang,

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Speaker 1: everything flies out. And and that's exactly what happens here.

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Speaker 1: You crack open the nucleus it was held together sort

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Speaker 1: of delicately. You crack it open and everything flies out

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Speaker 1: with a bunch of energy. But it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: a reverse jack in the box, right, because the springs

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Speaker 1: are pulling stuff together, not sort of being compressed and

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Speaker 1: wanting to explode. Yeah, exactly here in this case, the

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Speaker 1: bonds are holding them together, so they're sort of trapped

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Speaker 1: in a bound state where the bonds you know, have

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Speaker 1: a potential, well, where everything like trapped inside You can

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Speaker 1: think of that sort of as like the box that's

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Speaker 1: holding the jack in the box together, or they can

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Speaker 1: that's holding the snakes inside. But inside there are things

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Speaker 1: with a lot of energy that are desperate to get out.

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Speaker 1: They're trapped into a stable configuration currently, but if you

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Speaker 1: destroy the barriers that are holding them in, they will

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Speaker 1: fly out. I wonder if it's like, you know, wrapping

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Speaker 1: something up in bungee cords and holding this time some

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Speaker 1: something big together with bungee cords or rubber bands, and

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Speaker 1: then when you cut a rubber band, you know, it

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Speaker 1: snaps and they go flying out. Yeah, exactly, Take a

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Speaker 1: huge ball of rubber bands and cut it in half

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Speaker 1: with a circular saw. Then the rubber bands are going

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Speaker 1: to go everywhere, and they're not just gonna lie down

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Speaker 1: nicely on the table. All right, Well, that's nuclear fishing.

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Speaker 1: That's what happens when fission happens in an atom. And

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Speaker 1: so let's get into whether or not it happens naturally

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Speaker 1: in nature and whether or not we've ever seen it happen.

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Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: nuclear vision and how to make it at home, right, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: With some simple ingredients. That's right. First call up the

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Speaker 1: n s A and book your room because you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be staying with them for a long time. Make sure

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Speaker 1: you get a spot with the window. Oh man, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if there are people from the n s A

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Speaker 1: listening to us? Then is always listening, It's just not

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Speaker 1: counted in our podcast listenership, which I don't think it's fair.

429
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: I see right, right, we could have one more added

430
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: to our data, unless they're listening to the ads, in

431
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: which case, hey, it's all cool, it's all but yeah,

432
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: we talked about vision and what it is. It's when

433
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: you break up a heavy atom into lighter atoms, when

434
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: you redistribute the number of protons in the nucleus. And

435
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: so the question we're asking today is can that happen

436
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: naturally in nature? And more specifically, can you like have

437
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: a reactor of it that creates a bunch of energy

438
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: happen in nature? Exactly because fission itself, like an atom

439
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: aching into smaller pieces and releasing energy that happens all

440
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 1: the time, like uranium just sitting around is unstable, and

441
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: those atoms will crack and have and they will fly apart,

442
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: and lots of atoms are unstable, and every time that

443
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: happens you call it radioactive decay. It really is vision.

444
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: But what we do inside of reactor is not just

445
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: have like one atom break and half or two atoms

446
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: break and half. We have something special. We have a

447
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: chain reaction, a self sustaining reaction sort of like fire.

448
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: That's very special arrangement which only in this century we

449
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: were able to engineer to make happen. So you're saying that,

450
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: like fission bitte self does happen in nature, like things

451
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: break apart in nature all the time. But it's getting

452
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 1: it to like be self sustaining and have it sort

453
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: of be like a fire where it's constantly happening. That's harder.

454
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: Or like did you see the sun for fusion, that's

455
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: harder to do, Yeah, exactly. It's like the difference between

456
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: having a spark and having a fire. You know, we've

457
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: all been there at a campsite shooting sparks at something

458
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: and trying to get a fire started. It's not always

459
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: easy to get a fire. Star did right. You can

460
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: have smarks, which are evidence of energy being released. Right,

461
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: the same chemical process is at work, But to get

462
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,719
Speaker 1: a fire started, you need to get enough heat so

463
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: that you're igniting more fuel, which can then release more heat,

464
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: which can ignite more fuel. So it's a self sustaining part,

465
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: which is quite tricky to happen even for fire, sometimes

466
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: especially difficult for a fission chain reaction. So this happens

467
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: in nature for fusion, like in the sun and the stars.

468
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 1: That seems it seems to happen more easily for fusion

469
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: than for fission. That's right, But again that's probably just

470
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 1: because there is a lot of fuel for fusion around, right.

471
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: Fusion requires light elements, and there are a lot of

472
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: light elements in the universe. It's mostly hydrogen out there,

473
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: and so that's fuel for fusion, all right. So you're

474
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: saying that if fision, making fission happen constantly is hard,

475
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: But we figured it out here on Earth right in

476
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: our nuclear reactors and in our nuclear bombs. So how

477
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: do how do we do it? So the key things

478
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: you need to make a self sustaining fission reaction, you

479
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: need to say things. One is you need enough fuel

480
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: sort of close to each other, because you need one

481
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: fission reaction to trigger the next one, which triggers the

482
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: next one, right, sort of like if you're trying to

483
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: start a fire, you don't spread your logs out everywhere.

484
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: You get them close together so the heat from one

485
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: can ignite the next one. And then you also need

486
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: something to get the neutrons that fly out to be

487
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: at the right speed, because the neutrons that fly out

488
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: don't always come out at just the right speed to

489
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: trigger the next reaction. So you need one a critical mass,

490
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: and two you need this thing called a neutron moderator,

491
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: which makes the neutrons go with just the right temperature. Yeah,

492
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: those neutrons are not as neutral as they seem. Sometimes

493
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: you get a pull it back. Sometimes well they're just

494
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: so excited to get out there into the world and

495
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: do something like Hey, neutron, look, let me give you

496
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: some career advice. Okay, you don't want to burn out immediately,

497
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: all right, So let's tackle each of these interns. So

498
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: you say you need critical mass because in a chain

499
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: reaction fission, In a fission chain reaction, you have like

500
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: one atom splits open that releases a bunch of energy,

501
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: and that energy comes out as particles I guess or photons,

502
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: and then those hit other heavy nuclei which then causes

503
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: them to break, and then those release more energy, which

504
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: causes other things to break. So that's what you mean

505
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 1: by chain reaction, right, Yeah, exactly. And what happens when

506
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: you break up the uranium, for example, is you get

507
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: the fragments, you get the like lighter elements, and then

508
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: mostly you get neutrons. Like you get some energy in

509
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: terms of photons, but then also you get these neutrons.

510
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: And that's critical because it's the neutrons that are going

511
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: to trigger the neighboring atoms to break apart. For example,

512
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: you take a neutron and you shoot it into a

513
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: uranium atom, and it will make it unstable. It will

514
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,479
Speaker 1: give it enough energy so that instead of being like

515
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,719
Speaker 1: a nicely built piece of lego, it's like a little

516
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: wobblie and then it's going to break open. And so

517
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: it's the neutron that triggers the reaction in the neighbor Interesting,

518
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: so I guess, first of all, when a atom breaks apart,

519
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: why does it release a lot of neutrons and not

520
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: like protons or something else. Yeah, actually shoots out a

521
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: bunch of particles. And so sometimes you get neutrons, sometimes

522
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: you get gamma rays, you can also get protons. Mostly

523
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: the protons like the cluster together into these other nuclei,

524
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: so we call these nuclear fragments. They go off and

525
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: form little daughter particles. But you can sometimes get protons out,

526
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: and also the neutrons that you shoot out, they will

527
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: eventually decay because neutrons are not stable, so you will

528
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: eventually get protons coming out also. All right, so you're

529
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: saying that's pretty interesting, because that's one thing I didn't

530
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: know is that I always thought that when fishing reactions happen,

531
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: it's like the energy from the shooting particles break the

532
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: other ones in part, but it's really more like you're

533
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: shooting off hairs and they break the camel back of

534
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: other Yeah, it's like little bullets, right. These neutrons are

535
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: like little bullets, and they're shooting out and they have

536
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: just the right interactions to mess up the neighbors. And

537
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: so it's sort of like you know, divorces spreading throughout

538
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: a friend group. You know, people get grumpy, they get divorced,

539
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: they start complaining to their friends about their marriages, and

540
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: their friends are like, oh, that sounds familiar, maybe we

541
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: should get divorced. Yeah, it's like I was saying, it's

542
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: like it's shooting hairs that break the camel's backs all around,

543
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: and then when those camels break apart, that shoots off

544
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: hairs that break other camel backs, right exactly. And so

545
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: what you need is a critical mass. When those neutrons

546
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: fly out of the fission ing atom, they need something

547
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: to hit, and so you need to have enough fuel

548
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: sort of packed densely together in order to make it

549
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: so that you can have a self sustaining reaction. And

550
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: critical mass is probably like a phrase you've heard before,

551
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: and that's essentially the most important component and having a

552
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: nuclear reaction, right, because I guess if the camels are

553
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: too far apart, you know, one of them will just

554
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: break apart and send hairs flying up, but that the

555
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: hairs won't hit the other camels, so you need them

556
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: pack close together. I see that you prefer to talk

557
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: about camels than divorces, but I'll go, yeah, it's a

558
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: bit of a bummer camels that, you know, more fun image.

559
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: Our camel's monogamous, by the way, do they meete for life? Yeah,

560
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: let's talk about camel divorce. I'm just trying to fuse

561
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: it all together rather than fission, our analogies into two

562
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: different topics. Um any analogies for fission can we come

563
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: up with? We've already broken bananas and jack in the

564
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: box inverse jack in the boxes and camels and divorce.

565
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: All right, so critical masks, we get a chain reaction

566
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: of fission, and you also you need to slow down

567
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 1: the neutron somehow. Yeah. The problem is that when the

568
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: neutrons fly out, they have a lot of energy, so

569
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: they're called fast neutrons. They're just moving really really quickly,

570
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: and even if you pack your uranium pretty tightly, the

571
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 1: neutrons that come out are moving too quickly to ignite

572
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: the neighboring uranium nuclei into breaking because the faster they're going,

573
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: the more the like the universe is compressed for them,

574
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: and so they have a smaller chance of hitting those neighbors.

575
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: So what you need is something to slow down those

576
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: neutrons to just the right speed so they have a

577
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: high enough chance of hitting a nucleus and triggering another

578
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: reaction out. Interesting, it's about like the probability of hitting

579
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: another atom, right, Like the hairs from the camel are

580
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: flying off to fast, they'll just miss all the other camels.

581
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: But if it's growing slow, then it's a bigger chance

582
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: that you know, a camel will walk into the path

583
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: of one of these hairs. Yeah, because you don't want

584
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: your neutrons to fly all the way through your fuel

585
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: and escape with their energy. You want them to deposit

586
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: that energy in some other nuclei so you can trigger

587
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: another reaction. So basically you have to make your fuel

588
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: opaque to neutrons rather than transparent. And so to do that,

589
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: you've got to slow them down because fast neutrons will

590
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: escape and slow neutrons will be captured by neighboring atoms

591
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: and trigger more reactions. All right, So you need critical

592
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: mass and you need to slow down your neutrons, and

593
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: if you do that, then you can get a efficient

594
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: chain reaction to heaven. And that's what gives you nuclear

595
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: bombs and nuclear reactors, that's right. That's mostly the designed

596
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: for a nuclear reactor, not nuclear bomb. And so if

597
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: you're a nice person out there and looking to build

598
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: the next generation of nuclear reactors and provide clean, green

599
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: energy to the future, then we support you. If you're

600
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: out there trying to build a nuclear weapon, then you know,

601
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: check out another podcast. You done here here you can

602
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: basically turn this off. But this was first done in

603
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: in Chicago by Enrico Fermi, and it's not an easy

604
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: thing to accomplish. This right balance of having the right

605
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: massive fuel and just the right sort of neutron moderator

606
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: take of the neutrons at the right speed. It's really

607
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: quite delicate. So that's how you make a nucleon fission reactor.

608
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: And so now the question that we started with was

609
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: does it occur naturally in nature? Are their stars out there?

610
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: Are there things that are naturally reacting with fission constantly?

611
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: So let's get into that question. But first let's take

612
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: another quick break. All right, can a fish and reactor

613
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: happened naturally on this universe? Daniel? I guess the question

614
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: is is there somehow, you know, like we see stars

615
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: out there that are constant fusion reactors? Do we see

616
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know, some weird concentration of uranium or

617
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: plutonium that is constantly also reacting and giving off energy? Yeah, well,

618
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: what you need are both of the elements, right, You

619
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: need some critical mass of uranium or plutonium, and you

620
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: need something to moderate the reaction so that it can

621
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: self sustain rather than just like burning itself out by

622
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: shooting these neutrons out and losing all of their energy.

623
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: And so in our episode about fission stars, I think

624
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: we concluded that there isn't enough uranium in the universe

625
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: to make like dense blobs of uranium that could do that.

626
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: But you know, there are deposits of uranium here in

627
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: the crust of the Earth surface, and so you can imagine, like, hmm,

628
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: could there like just like happen to be really rich

629
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: deposits of uranium in the Earth surface and just the

630
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: right arrangement to somehow like create natural fission reactors, right,

631
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: because I guess you could get a chain reaction going

632
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: with any amount of uranium, but I guess if you

633
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: only have like a teaspoon of it, it won't last

634
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: very long. Right, So you're saying, like maybe here on

635
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: Earth we could have enough uranium together that we do

636
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: get this sort of nuclear constant reaction going exactly. And

637
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: this is something that in nineteen fifty six a business

638
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: was thinking about. It is Paul Kuroda, and he predicted

639
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: that it would be possible. He said, if you have

640
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: a configuration in the Earth's crust where you have exactly

641
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: the right amount of uranium in the right configuration, and

642
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: like water leaks in and provides just the right kind

643
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: of like neutron moderation, then you could get a nuclear

644
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: reaction going just like by itself spontaneously underground. I guess

645
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more often. Is it

646
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: the case that you know, we have a lot of

647
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: uranium here on Earth and it's it's fission ng, it's

648
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: breaking up apart, but it's not causing a chain reaction,

649
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: so it's not sort of like burning up really quickly.

650
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Uranium just sitting around is constantly fissioning

651
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 1: and constantly breaking up, and sometimes it's even in critical mass.

652
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: But there's not a neutron moderator, and so you need

653
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: that second piece to make these elf sustaining reaction happen. Well,

654
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: and so that's happened here on Earth. So someone predicted it.

655
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: But have we found an actual like natural fission reactor

656
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: on Earth. Yes, Actually, somebody has figured out that billions

657
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: of years ago deposits in the earth in Gabon in

658
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: the African continent did experience a nuclear self reaction. Basically,

659
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: there was a reaction happening underground on Earth, and the

660
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: way they discovered is really quite a fun story what happened.

661
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: Uranium is a very special and important material, right, and

662
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,959
Speaker 1: we don't want the wrong people to get their hands

663
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: on it, so people do very careful accounting of like

664
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: the amount of uranium. Remember that uranium comes into flavors.

665
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: There's the U two thirty five, which is the important

666
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: one you need for doing fission, and then there's U

667
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: two thirty eight, which is much longer lasting and much

668
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: less useful. So typically what you do is you mind

669
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: uranium and then you try to get the U two

670
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: thirty five out of it. You can do like centrifuging

671
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: or any sort of like you know, processing to get

672
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: it out, and most natural deposits have a pretty small

673
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: amount of it. It's something like zero points seven per cent.

674
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: So there was this material that they mined in Gabon

675
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: and they were processing it in France and they discovered

676
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: a whole on a second, it's really really low in

677
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: you two thirty five, And they were wondering, like did

678
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: somebody steal all the uto thirty five? Like where did

679
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: all the you two thirty five go? It's like this

680
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: material has already been depleted of the fission material, because

681
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: I guess most of the uranium and Earth was sort

682
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: of created at the same time, and so they all

683
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: are have the same sort of ratio of the two

684
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: kinds of uranium. That's right. And it's like a big clock.

685
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: You know, billions of years ago there was more U

686
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: two thirty five on Earth, and it's just depleting, like

687
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it's just constantly fission ing and breaking up and turning

688
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: into other stuff. So the U two thirty five fraction

689
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: in deposits is dropping all over the Earth constantly. And

690
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: you know where was this made? When did this clock start? Well,

691
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: we think that this stuff was made like in supernovas

692
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: or in the collisions of neutron stars billions and billions

693
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: of years ago, and so it's just been like slowly

694
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: fission ng into other stuff very gradually over billions of years.

695
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: And now, just because of where we are in time,

696
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: it happens to be about points seven percent of natural uranium.

697
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: So I guess we assume that all of the uranium

698
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: on Earth was made at the same time, like there

699
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: was one event that created all this uranium. Yeah, mostly,

700
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,919
Speaker 1: or at least you know too within a billion years

701
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: or so. All right, So then we found this piece

702
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: of uranium rock that had a different ratio of the

703
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: two kinds of uraniums. It had less of the two

704
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: thirty five exactly, had less of the useful stuff, the

705
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: stuff that you could use to do fission. And so

706
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: for first people were like, hold on a second, somebody

707
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: must have like slurped it out or stole it or whatever.

708
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: But then they discovered that all of the deposits from

709
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: this one mine had this low fraction that you know,

710
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: that most of the stuff was essentially already depleted of

711
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: what you could use for fission. And so then they

712
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: started thinking, hold on a second, maybe this is an

713
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: example of a natural reactor. Maybe it's just sort of

714
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: like visioned on its own and burnt out all of

715
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: the useful uranium, like it's ignited. Right, It's like you're

716
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: looking for coal deposits, but you find some coal that

717
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: already looks burned out. Yeah, exactly, And so that's exactly

718
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: what happened. And what they figured out is that there

719
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: are very rich deposits of uranium in this mind so

720
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: like excellent critical mass, just what you need, and that

721
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: there were cracks in the rock where groundwater could seep in,

722
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: and so the groundwater would seep in and then surround

723
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: these deposits and essentially act like a neutron moderator. So

724
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: like crack and get inside. And you know, this is

725
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: something that like engineers spent a lot of time becoming

726
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: proficient in how to design, but it just sort of

727
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: like happened accidentally and randomly in this one spot, and

728
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: it was just in the right way to moderate those

729
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: neutrons so they have the right energy to trigger this

730
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: self sustaining reaction. So really all you need is like

731
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: just add water to uranium in the right way and

732
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: you can get a little nuclear reactor. Yeah, but you

733
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: need water and like internally, right, you can't just like

734
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: put a chunk of uranium in a glass of water.

735
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: You need to be internal so that they can like

736
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: really capture those neutrons and slow them down and before

737
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: they hit another piece of uranium. So you need like

738
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 1: a cracked piece of uranium, you like a drill holes

739
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: in uranium first or something. Oh, I see, you need

740
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: like a little water barrier between different parts of the

741
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: uranium so that it slows down the neutrons. And then

742
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: what happens, right, What happens is you produce a lot

743
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: of heat, and so then the water gets hot and

744
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: it turns into steam, and it boils away and it

745
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: turns off the reaction. Then it cools down and more

746
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: water drips in and it starts again. And so they

747
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: were able to figure out that this thing was on

748
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: a three hour cycle. It's like thirty minutes of intense

749
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: fission reactions boiling this water into steam, and then like

750
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: a two and a half hours for it to cool

751
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: down and for water to come back in and for

752
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: things to kick off again. Wow. And so this happened

753
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: for how long you think this happened billions of years ago?

754
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: For a few hundred thousand years. By counting like how

755
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: much uranium has been depleted, they were able to figure

756
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: out that this thing went on for quite a long time. Interesting,

757
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: you said a hundred thousand years this was happening, So

758
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: for a hundred thousand years, hundreds of thousands, Yeah, So

759
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 1: for a few hundred thousand years, it's somewhere in Africa

760
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: was unseasonably warm, or like the ground, somewhere in the

761
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: ground or somewhere inside of a mountain, it was sort

762
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: of like hot. Yeah, it was like a few hundred

763
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: degrees selfius underground and over several hundred thousand years it

764
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: consumed the physile material in like several tons of uranium. Wow.

765
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: So it was like a naturally engineered nuclear reactor exactly.

766
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: And it's producing crazy radiation right, is shooting off particles.

767
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 1: And you know, if it had been really near the surface,

768
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: it was like caused cancer and any animals or people

769
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: living nearby. But of course it was billions of years ago.

770
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: But it happened in Africa. So could that have somehow

771
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, mutative some plad or animal and here

772
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, it's like an ultra version in two

773
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: thousand one, you know, like a uranium monolith that like

774
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: mutates our ancestors and makes them intelligent or or dumber.

775
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: Maybe we would have been smarter if this thing happened. Happened. Interesting,

776
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: I see, so maybe we are all really superheroes. Origin

777
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: are and some you know radioactive event. Yeah. The thing

778
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: I find it really interesting is that it's no longer

779
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: possible because uranium is naturally depleting itself, Like this depleted

780
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: itself really rapidly because of this critical mass and the

781
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: neutron moderators, etcetera. But most uranium just sitting underground is

782
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: naturally depleting itself, not through as a self sustaining reaction,

783
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: just as it sort of falls apart and so on. Average,

784
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: the uranium around the Earth is doesn't have the critical

785
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: mass anymore to do this. This happened billions of years

786
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: ago because back then it was much richer in uranium

787
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: two thirty five. It hadn't like fallen apart yet into

788
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: the lighter elements. Oh, I see, so this couldn't happen again. Really,

789
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: even if you like put the water in and just

790
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: the right way. No, it couldn't happen again. You don't

791
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: have the critical mass in naturally occurring uranium or anymore anymore,

792
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: not on Earth that we're aware of. Unless there's like

793
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: a fresh batch of uranium that just landed from a

794
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: neutron star collision in a neighborhood or somewhere else on

795
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: another planet, it could certainly happen. But if there's uranium

796
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: or the sort of of the same date as the

797
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: ones that we're typically discovering, then it's no longer rich

798
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: enough for this to happen. Interesting, I see, it's it's

799
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: like it's stale exactly. Those camels got stale, to use

800
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: your analogy, they got a wet or something. And I see,

801
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: because the kind that we use for like nuclear reactors,

802
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: the nuclear bonds, we have to like refine it, right,

803
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: we have to make it richer in this special kind

804
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: of uranium, hence the famous centrifuges used to make nuclear fuel.

805
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: All right, so maybe it was once. It sounds like

806
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: there was only a brief period of time maybe in

807
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,959
Speaker 1: the history of Earth, where a natural vision reactor could

808
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: have occurred. But no, no longer, right, that's right. Now

809
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: it's just up to us humans to engineer the precise

810
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: conditions necessary to release this energy from the atoms. But

811
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: I guess it could have happened in other parts of

812
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: the Earth, not just in Africa, Like there could have

813
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: been other reactors that we don't know about yet, and

814
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: there could be reactors happening in other planets, perhaps are

815
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: in other parts of the galaxy. Sure, this is the

816
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: only one that we have found, but certainly possible that

817
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: deeper in the Earth, or just in undiscovered uranium deposits,

818
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: there's evidence that had happened other times in the history

819
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 1: of the Earth, and it's certainly could be happening right

820
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: now on a fresher planet out there, a less stale camel. Alright, cool, well,

821
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: I guess the answer to the question, can a fission

822
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: reactor happened in nature? The answer is yes, With the

823
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: right conditions and the right time, in the right place,

824
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: you can have like an actual nature vision reactor. How

825
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: does that make you feel about the quality of human

826
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: engineering versus just natural randomness? Well, humans were engineered by nature,

827
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: so I think nature is the ultimate engineer. About that.

828
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: Nature should be on all of our papers as well.

829
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: It should be a Marvel superhero nature nature and should

830
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: be totally naked right on that tural. Oh man, your

831
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: mind is going to some interesting places today. Divorced dudity boy, Daniel.

832
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: You know this is the family friendly podcast, right, We're

833
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: not trying to fuse it with other ideas. I apologize clearly,

834
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: the nature character for Marvel should be a camel. You're right,

835
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: all right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that and then

836
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: got you to think about what an incredible place nature

837
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: is right where suddenly, for some reason, fission reactors can happen.

838
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: That's right, So everything that you can't imagine. It's probably

839
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: happening out there somewhere in the universe. Events are conspiring

840
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: to create even the most delicate and elaborate scenarios in

841
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: which the craziest particle interactions can occur. Well, thanks for

842
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: joining us, see you next time. Thanks for listening, and

843
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explaining Verse is a production

844
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcast form My heart Radio,

845
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

846
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,