WEBVTT - DOJ Erases Jan 6th Cases & Pirro's Job in Jeopardy 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.440 More than three years ago, the Justice Department was touting 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:16.880 the guilty verdicts against members of the right wing Oathkeepers 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.640 for a plot to obstruct Congress's certification of the twenty 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:26.159 twenty presidential election. The rare seditious conspiracy verdicts were the 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.800 crowning achievement of an expansive prosecution effort that followed the 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.720 violent riots at the Capitol on January sixth of twenty 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.239 twenty one. But when Donald Trump took office for the 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.960 second time, he directed his sweeping clemency power toward the 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.760 more than fifteen hundred people charged in connection with the 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:48.240 January sixth attack. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.600 I was very proud to pardon the j six postige. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.720 And when Trump bragged about the pardons at a rally 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.600 about a week later, sitting behind him in the VIP 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:05.280 section was Stuart Rhodes, the leader of the oath Keepers 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:10.040 who'd been released from prison just days earlier after Trump 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:15.360 commuted his eighteen year sentence for seditious conspiracy. And now 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:19.800 the Trump administration is trying to rewrite the history of 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.480 the January sixth attack by dismissing the indictments against the 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:29.000 oath Keeper's hack. Federal Judge Amitt Metta, who had presided 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.560 over the oath Keeper's case and sentenced the defendants, criticized 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.560 the Justice Department, writing that the government quote asked to 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:42.119 absolve these defendants of crimes against the United States itself, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:44.800 but he wrote that he had no choice but to 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.040 grant the administration's motion to dismiss Joining me is Bloomberg 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.080 Legal reporter Zoe Zoe tell us about the charges against 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.280 the oath Keepers and their significance. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.360 So this was one of the highest profile cases to 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.560 come out of the January sixth secution effort, where members 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:07.360 of the oath Keepers, which was a right wing extremist group, 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.320 were charged with conspiring well in advance of January sixth, 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.200 not only to come to Washington to do whatever it 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.320 took to stop Congress from certifying the election results, but 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.480 also to bring guns and to stockpile them at a 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.240 hotel in Virginia. And the theory of that prosecution was, 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.160 you know, these were not people going to protest and 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.480 accidentally got swept up that they had been planning potentially 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.080 to use force and violence to stop Congress. From certifying 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.480 the election. This was arguably the highest profile of not 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.919 one of the most high profile cases. It involved charges 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.600 and ultimately convictions for a seditious conspiracy, which was a 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.440 very rarely used offense. It's you know, use of force 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.040 against the US government. This is more than just the 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:00.200 garden variety, so to speak, conspiracy to obstruct Congress to 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.960 that many people faced after January sixth, So these cases 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.840 were really top of mind for the Justice Department and 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:12.040 for the public's understanding of the most serious crimes that 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.400 were being charged in connection with what had happened on January. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.040 Six and how many people were actually convicted in this 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:19.120 particular case. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.400 There were several dozen I believe prosecutions related in some 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.720 way to the oathkeepers. But what it came down to 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:32.040 here was eight defendants who were convicted, including some of 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.240 seditious conspiracy, but who weren't part of the Trump pardon. 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.440 You might remember, on January twentieth, he takes office, he 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:45.160 issues a sweeping executive clemency action that covers almost everybody, 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.560 but not everybody convicted or charged in the January sixth cases, 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.720 and there were fourteen people who didn't get pardons, but 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.480 their sentences were commuted, and that included eight of the 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.320 remaining defendants whose cases were an issue here related to 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.280 the Oathkeepers case, So, you know, their cases then had 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:04.760 still been out there, they. 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.240 Were appealing their convictions. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.160 Ultimately, the Justice Department came back and said to the 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.560 courts that they wished to vacate those convictions even though 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.040 Trump hadn't pardoned them. So those were struck, and then 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.640 what was left were the indictments. They were still you know, 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.400 on the record, criminally charged with these offenses, and that's 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.120 what was left for the judge to resolve here. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.440 Why didn't Trump pardon them as well? 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.480 I don't think that he's ever publicly discussed this at length, 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.440 but I think the inference was that the fourteen people 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.640 were members of the Oathkeepers and the Proud Boys, and 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:45.600 these were the most serious, seditious conspiracy cases that the 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.600 Justice Department had brought. And you know, leading up to 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.920 Trump returning to office, there had been rumblings coming from 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.960 Republicans and conservatives, not just Democrats and liberals, blocking at 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.120 the idea that people who beat up cops, committed violence, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.960 or who were convicted of these most serious offenses against 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.560 the United States government that they should perhaps not benefit 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.680 from executive clemency, and there was some infighting on the 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.359 right about whether that would be appropriate and acceptable, and 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.320 ultimately the President had a sweeping clemency action that covered 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.440 many people who were convicted or charged with assaulting police officers, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.279 but it seemed like perhaps the seditious conspiracy cases were 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.760 this outlier, so he commuted the sentences. They were released 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.880 from prison, but didn't take that final step at the time, 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:36.560 at least to give them a full pardon. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.800 Have you heard before of the Justice Department getting convictions 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:46.120 asking to have them vacated and asking to have the 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:47.680 indictments dismissed. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.040 So the convictions were already vacated, the cases were up 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.159 on appeal, and the Justice departments asked the appeals court 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.680 to basically kick them back down with an order to 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:58.200 vacate them, finding it. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.200 Was in the public interest. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.599 The judge in the opinion that we wrote about sort 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.000 of notes that there wasn't much explanation as to why 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.120 they wanted to do that and why the DC circuits 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.359 signed off on that. That being said, there is just 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.640 a lot of prosecutorial discretion at every level of these cases. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:18.679 So when administrations change, there are always, no matter who's 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:23.240 in charge, backtracking of prosecutorial decisions that have been made 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.200 by past administrations. That's certainly something we see. So what 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.159 was left was just that the indictments were still active. 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.880 You know, in theory they could vacate these convictions, but say, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.279 you know, there were problems with how this prosecution happened, 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.920 but we're going to try them again. That was still 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:44.280 an option, or just to leave them intact, as the 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.520 judge said, you know, to create some record that this 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.719 had all happened in some official legal capacity. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:55.200 The judge pointed out the prosecutors never admitted to any 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.320 prosecutorial misconduct or legal error or said that the evidence 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.159 was not sufficient to sustain the conviction. So was he 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:08.520 trying to say that this is not about the weaponization 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.360 of the Justice Department, as the Trump administration and President 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:13.680 Trump keeps claiming. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.600 Basically, yes, I think he felt that he needed to 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:23.720 highlight what was a series of unusual events and you know, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.520 in his mind, perplexing and surprising arguments that the government 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.960 ultimately made to do something that he acknowledged they have 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.040 the authority to do. It's just normally, he said, it's 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.320 because they might say, you know, we looked at the 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.760 evidence again, it was insufficient. We identified deficiencies with what 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.000 was charged, how the prosecution played out. You know, those 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:45.800 are the normal reasons that you would see the government 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.200 walk back a case where it's already won a conviction. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.880 That didn't happen here. And the judge said, what he 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.560 received from the government was a couple of arguments. One 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.960 was to protect these defendants from harassment, that as long 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.080 as the indictments were on the book, the potential for 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.800 you know, maybe some future trial that this was harassing 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:11.240 of individuals whose sentences had been commuted and their convictions vacated. 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.040 The other reason that he really. 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.200 Took issue with was this idea that the department said, 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.040 there was so much publicity around these trials and prosecutions 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.520 that you don't need a record of criminal activity in 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.120 the courts. People can just go back and see what 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.240 happened because there was media coverage. And the judge said, 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:32.920 you know, that is not the government stance. The government 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.320 normally feels that. I think he said, you know, actual 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.400 accountability is what is in the public interests, not media 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.640 coverage or public attention. And then Finally, he also pointed 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.560 out that to say that this was in line with 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.080 Trump the president's intent didn't quite square with the fact 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.960 that the President had decided to not pardon these defendants, 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:57.800 So he also identified an incongruity in that logic. I 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.880 think what was really striking about this opinion June was 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.320 that he decided to take the opportunity to make clear 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.679 that he was quite disappointed and dismayed and. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.000 Upset at the outcome of all of this. 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.600 These were cases that really consumed the Federal Court in 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.400 Washington for years after two thousand and one. It was 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.880 all encompassing, and all the judges spent countless hours reviewing 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:28.080 body camera footage from that day, evidence testimony from police 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.720 officers who were there, and Judge Mata and other colleagues 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:36.960 on the bench have publicly expressed their consternation at what 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.280 they see as a rewriting of fact of what happened 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:45.400 on January sixth, and the culpability of at least many 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.200 of the people who were charged and convicted or what 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:49.080 happened that day. 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.560 You could see almost the sort of sadness and the 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.080 solemnity behind this. Today's epilogue diminishes the gravity of that 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.360 day denigrates the work of the prosecutors law enforcement officers 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:06.040 who secured these convictions and excuses criminal acts that caused 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.760 a century's long pillar of our democracy, the peaceful transfer 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.880 presidential power to buckle. But he said, the court cannot 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.880 write a different ending. He had no choice. He had 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.200 to accept it, right. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.560 And you know, his choice was to write what he wrote. 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.040 And he could have simply said, you know, given the 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.439 explanation from the government, and given the court's lack of 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.680 authority to supersede these types. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.240 Of decisions, I grant the request. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.040 I think the choice ultimately that he made was to 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.240 put down these words that I have to think he 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.640 knew would get attention and get some coverage as a 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:51.000 way of closing out, perhaps the public record of everything 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.760 that had happened, and maintaining an official record through the 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.720 legal proceeding of at least his perception of what had happened. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.000 And this judge had handled. 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.600 This case from the very beginning, so he had been 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:07.720 there from the start and chose to express these thoughts 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.679 which one of the defendants already has objected to, and 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.560 ask that he go back and strike a lot of 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.800 the extra what they saw is the extra language that 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.280 was very unfair to their client. As the defense attorneys noted, 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.200 you know, as long as these convictions were on appeal, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.040 they were never finalized, so there was still this presumption 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.840 of innocence that individuals have until it's final And they 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.800 argued that they would like him to strike at least 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.559 some of this language from the opinion in light of that, and. 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.840 That was a motion made to judgmenta himself. 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.760 That's right, that came shortly after the opinion was released. 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:43.000 A motion to strike. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.960 Whether he will entertain that, we don't know, but you know, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.800 certainly he has put down and it's now out there 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.920 for posterity, you know, his final thoughts on how this 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.120 all unraveled. 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.800 It'll be really interesting to see what happens. I mean, 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.040 if he refuses, is that grounds to appeal? 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.280 I think that would be a tough, tough appeal. You know, 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.440 much as the government has a lot of prosecutorial discretion, 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.280 the judges have certainly a lot of discretion in what 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.040 they write and their opinions. And barring some legal error, 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.720 it's tough to see what the appeal would look like there. 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:23.480 And now this is less than a month after another 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:28.360 judge had to dismiss another January sixth related case against 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.720 another far right group, the Proud Boys. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.559 I mean, they've walked back all of the January sixth prosecution. 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.680 Some of the Proud Boys defendants were among those fourteen 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.720 individuals who didn't get pardons from the President but commutations. 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.959 So as judge madea notes here, you know, there were 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.880 these last lingering cases that needed to be resolved because 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.440 there weren't pardons to sort of cleanly wipe that slake 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:57.280 clean that commutations don't remove a conviction from someone's record, 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.760 and at that point there's sort of a debate of 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.480 what's appropriate to keep on the record and how much 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.800 does something like a commutation absolve someone of the weight 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:10.120 of a conviction. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.760 And Zoe, do you know have any of the Proud 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:18.439 Boys or the Oathkeepers filed claims with the Justice Department 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.000 for compensation. 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.640 We know that several members of the Proud Boys have 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.800 filed a lawsuit seeking compensation that the Justice Department has 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.319 opposed so far, so that has not gotten anywhere in 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.199 terms of success on their part. We don't know there 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.920 haven't been lawsuits on behalf of the Oathkeepers. There have 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.880 been some from other January sixth defendants who were pardoned. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.319 We know that several hundred hundreds of January sixth defendants 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.320 who got pardons have filed administrative claims. It's not clear 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.319 to me if any of the oath keepers have. It 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.839 seems like it would be unlikely until their cases were 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.880 fully resolved. So that's certainly a line of reporting that 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.480 will continue to follow. That said, you know, there are 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.680 a number of pending claims related to January six already. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.000 And even though the Justice Department had to walk back 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.600 a plan for this one point eight billion dollar anti 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.200 weaponization fund that was seen as a way to sort 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.440 of more quickly and cleanly pay out claims to January 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.600 sixth defendants, there are existing pathways that have always been 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.320 around for folks to pursue these types of compensation claims, 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.840 and many of them had filed claims long before the 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.320 fund was announced, and we expect them to continue to 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.840 press them long after the fund is purportedly dead. 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:36.840 So it's very. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.960 Much a live issue whether and how much money taxpayers 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.479 will now end up paying out to these individuals. 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.560 Is the judgment fund unlimited or is there a limited 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.320 amount of money in the fund. 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.760 Our understanding is it's always described as a permanent, indefinite appropriation, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:15:01.680 so generally it's understood to be unlimited. I haven't come 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.920 across a case where the government has said we can 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.760 only afford to pay you so much because we've tapped 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.120 out the judgment fund this year. You don't really see 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.200 that come up. Exactly how much gets put in at 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.600 any given time, Honestly, I don't know, But our understanding 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.760 is that generally it's considered a sort of infinite pool. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.359 Because of the Justice departments brought authority to settle claims 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.800 that are brought against the government, whether they're administrative which 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.000 means they don't play out on a public docket, or 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:33.920 they're brought in court. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.280 How those January sixth claims play out is something that 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.240 we have to keep track of now. Thanks so much, Zoe. 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.080 That's Bloomberg Legal Reporters, Zoe Tillman. 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:49.120 We weren't necessarily thrilled with a contractor, but they did 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.000 a job and they were fixing any problems. But then 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.360 I got carried away because the judge was extremely unfriendly 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.800 to Janine, and frankly, I think she choked. 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:06.000 President Trump was quite forgiving of the contractor whose botched 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:11.560 installation caused widespread damage to the Lincoln Memorial reflecting pool, 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.920 according to the DCUs attorney, though Trump was not so 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:20.320 forgiving of the DCUs attorney, Janine Piro, I. 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.520 Was disappointed with Jennie Piro, really disappointed with Jennie Piro. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.960 She folded like an umbrella. 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:34.440 Trump publicly criticized Piero for dismissing charges against individuals accused 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:39.360 of vandalizing the reflecting pool. Pierro met with Trump and 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:45.160 other officials, including Interior Secretary Doug Bergham, whose department oversaw 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:49.080 the project on Monday, but today Trump said he hadn't 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.560 decided whether to keep her as the top federal prosecutor 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.440 in Washington. Joining me is Jeff Mason Bloomberg White House 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.400 and Washington correspondent. Jeff start by telling us at the 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:06.520 relationship that Janine Pierrot has had with President Trump, at 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.080 least up until the last few days. 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.760 Well, they've been friends for a long time, and he 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:14.560 was a big fan of hers when she was on 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.280 Fox News, which was a job that she had for 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.159 a long time. And she's been a big defender of 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.840 President Trump's using that perch and then he brought her 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.640 into the administration by making her the top attorney in 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:33.720 the District of Columbia Washington, DC, and she has used 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.959 that perch to also really implement a lot of what 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.440 he was looking for in terms of legal cases here. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.600 I remember one of them being and I don't know 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.600 that she would have spoken to him about it, but 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:50.399 it's an example of Trumpian legal procedures, I guess was 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.920 when she brought the man who had thrown his sub 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.199 sandwich against a police officer during some kind of a 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.160 protest and tried to win that case and that didn't 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.920 work out. So that's just one example that comes to mind. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:10.000 But to your question, they've been longtime allies in any case, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.960 and so it was pretty unusual a to see her 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.480 make a decision that she has to have known was 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.040 going to upset him and b for him to be 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.760 as publicly critical of her and that decision as he was. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.440 Although I would add an addendum to that last piece, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.239 which is we know that President Trump turns on his 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.840 own and he did that a lot during the first term. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.040 He has done it less often during the second term, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.480 but he has done it. He fired Pambondi, he fired 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.720 Christy Nome, the former Attorney General and the former Secretary 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:50.480 of Homeland Security, so he absolutely could fire Miss Pierrot, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.920 and he might. In fact, he said, I think last 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.280 night when he was talking to reporters that he hadn't 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.560 made his decision yet, but he did not do it 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.520 after their meeting at the White House. And that seems 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.760 to be at least in part because she made her 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:09.520 case for why she had to withdraw the case that 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:14.520 he wanted, which was to pursue these these people who 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.639 they accused of being vandals and lead and of leading 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.480 them to the the breakdown of the lining on the 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:22.280 reflecting pool. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.879 So I saw a video of her going into the 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:31.199 White House with what prosecutors normally take to court, which is, 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.240 you know, a weelly with a box of documents, and 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.760 I mean, do you know what happened in that meeting? 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.600 Well, the New York Times had a fantastic story about 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.720 what happened in that meeting. So what I know is 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.200 from from reading their terrific reporting, and that is that 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.320 she brought in that case that you were that you 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:54.119 were referring to, with a bunch of documents and proof 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:59.359 essentially that it was according to her a mess up 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.120 by the contray and therefore also the Department of Interior, 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.560 and according to the time, she accused Secretary of Interior 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.840 Doug Burgham, who was present for this meeting, of lying. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.560 And honestly, if she did that in a way, that's 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.120 also suggesting that the President lied, although perhaps she's giving 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:25.320 him cover by saying he was listening to Burgham. I'm 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.600 not sure. I'm speculating a little bit there. But in 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.600 any case, she went in to press her case and 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.840 to make her case for the fact that she decided 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.720 not to continue with this case. And she did that 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.119 with the evidence apparently that was in that case that 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:41.919 you were referring to. 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.120 I mean, most lawyers who looked at those charges when 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.480 the indictment came out, you could see that it was 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:50.960 a very hard case to make out, even to make 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.560 out one thousand dollars worth of damage. It just didn't 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.320 seem like there was anything to support that in any event. 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.040 But what makes it different is she didn't just drop 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.840 the charges. She contradicted what Trump has been saying over 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.440 and over and over again that vandals caused the damage. 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:15.800 That's right, and that contradiction part is what is unusual, 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.440 certainly to have someone who is close to him and 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.440 a big supporter to not only contradict his Department of Interior, 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.240 but to contradict him directly, because he was clearly making 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.119 that case very publicly, and doing so in the face 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.320 of certainly a lot of questions from anyone who kind 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.480 of looked at it and thought, you know, how is 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.240 it possible that this one olympian and these three other 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.760 people could have made the damage with a box cutter 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:48.719 that in this massive and long reflecting pool. It just 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.119 didn't pass the logic test for a lot of people. 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.000 And yet that was not the criteria that President Trump 0:21:56.040 --> 0:22:00.199 was using, because remember, he made promises about this, and 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.080 he made promises about it going in that his contractors 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:05.840 are the people that he chose were going to be 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.960 able to do this renovation of the reflecting pool for 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.200 a much cheaper than any other administration had ever done 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.360 or ever tried, and much faster and much better, all 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.640 of the things, all of the superlatives that are part 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.159 of President Trump's lexicon, he applied to this project. And 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.520 then it didn't happen. Not only it did not happen, 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:30.160 but it failed spectacularly. So he was looking for, as 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:35.080 he often does when something goes wrong, a scapegoat, and 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.680 found a convenient one in these people who had gone 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.160 by and touched or taken out some of these floating pieces. 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:47.080 So again that became his narrative and in you know, 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.439 and I think it's also right to note that it 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:54.120 was also Piro's narrative. At the very beginning. She came 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:58.040 out and said, as well, this is the fault of vandals, 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:01.119 and that's why I'm starting this case. But then, as 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:02.920 I've said a few times over the last few days, 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:10.080 the difference between after that between rhetoric that she initially used, 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.040 that the President continues to use and that Bergham continues 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:16.520 to use and what you can prove in court are 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.920 two completely different things. And that's what she came up against, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.600 and that is apparently why she made the decision that 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:23.000 she did. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:27.479 As I understand, the President is still sticking with his 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.680 contention that vandals caused the damage, even though there's been 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:35.639 not one iota of proof that there was vandalism on 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:36.639 the pool itself. 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:39.879 But that's his mo I mean, you're not going to 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:44.760 see President Donald Trump back down from that contention because 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:48.000 it would suggest that he was wrong. It would suggest 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.720 that he did not share the truth. It would suggest 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:54.240 that he was duped. Any of those three things that 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:55.920 I just said would not be the look that he's 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.840 looking for. He needs to have a scapegoat, and that's 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:02.240