WEBVTT - Huxley's Utopia, Ft. Saint Andrew 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:09.879 Oh boy, it could happen. Here is the podcast that 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.000 you're listening to. All right, St Andrew, that that's my 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.880 job done today? Why why don't you take over? Good job. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.759 I'm proud of you. Thank you. Welcome everybody to another 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:25.920 wonderful episode of it could happen here to d open 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:31.800 to take a look at another book, well two books, 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.479 this time, this time works of fiction, and this time 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:42.320 by an English unfortunately writer named Alice Huxley. Right, we'll 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.120 be looking at Island and Free of New Wild, the 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:53.400 sort of twins of speculative science fiction. I would say 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.840 Alice Huxley was, like I said, in English writer and philosopher, 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.600 and he actually wrote a lot of books, um fifty 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.720 in his lifetime to be precise. He was also a 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:13.160 French teacher who interestingly enough taught George ol But I 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.680 did not know from yeah, but from what what his 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:22.839 past students have said. He wasn't a particularly good teacher, okay, 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.200 but he was a good speaker. Um. He was also 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:32.760 a very very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy, 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.240 and particularly like Advit. I don't know if I'm pronounced 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.559 that correctly, but Advoate vendatta, which is like a Hindu 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.120 spiritual practice. Yeah, I know, he's He's even referenced a 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.720 lot and like occultist and chaos magic books written like 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.840 post the sixties. He's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's He's like, um, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:02:00.840 that guy, it's his name again, Alan Watts. Yeah guy. Yeah. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.200 Also very interestingly, Um Huxley actually had LSD injected into 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:15.000 his veins. A basic yes, he was, like he was dying, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.960 as you know one does on their deathbed, and that 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.480 is the traditional thing to do traditionally, Yes, but while 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.240 in the process of dying, because he had like advanced 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.959 learning your cancer, he had to write to his wife Laura. 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:39.640 He was just like LSD's like, okay, Jackson him fucking muscle, 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.760 and she doesn't inject him with one dose. She injects 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:48.000 him with two doses and then he dies like several 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:54.639 hours later. Incredibly based what away staggeringly based and honestly, 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:56.760 if if he was like speaking on the deathbed, I 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.600 would really love to know, like what that experience was like, Like, 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.560 are you just like dancing through hell? Like what's going on? 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.239 I mean it could it could, think I can see 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:13.639 of being the most amazing thing. And also extreme plainly terrified. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:20.079 Right as a general rule, when like Pete, they've done 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.880 studies on like giving different kinds of psychedelics usually silosiban 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.240 mushrooms to um cancer people who are in hospice and 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.880 it it generally reduces their fear of death. Yeah, they 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.200 go in peace. Yeah, yeah, it just makes them like, ah, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.760 you know what, everything is the same as everything else, 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.080 and we're the imagination of the universe. I'm going to 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:51.080 go back into the space, which is fine. Good for them, Yeah, yeah, 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.120 good for them, Good for them. If I want my 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:55.760 death bed, I probably wouldn't want to be thinking about 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.640 death either. Yeah. I mean that that assumes that you know, 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.480 we a death bed, you know, And that's the kind 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.200 of wild thing about death. You don't know when it's 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.680 going to happen. But to return into the topic of discussion, 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:16.560 Brief New World and Ireland right to summarize the plots 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.520 of both, I guess I'll start with Brief New Wild 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.279 It is the more famous of the two. I don't 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.120 think a lot of people have food of Island compared 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.240 to Brief New World, because I mean briefew with New 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.480 World and high School. But I have not read Island exactly, 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.440 and it's like it's released as a lot about society 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.080 that that that we read about the dystopias, but not 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:41.680 the youtubeias. But anyway, Brief New World, you know, it's 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.680 really up there with like in terms of um, you know, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:52.040 it's it's notoriety. Um. It is like one of the 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:57.320 quintessential dystopias. It's set like several hundred years into the future, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:04.440 like which you know, to place which is several decades ago. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.640 Brave New World was set in two thousand and fifty four, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:16.800 two thousand and five and forty see, so several times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.920 But however, in the book, it isn't called two thousand five. 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:27.840 It's called six three to a F a F standing 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.240 for after Ford. Because in this world, and I'm sure 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.040 we'll get into this a bit, Henry Ford, the assembly 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.440 lying guy, the model t guy. He is basically god. 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.240 He is the god of their world. You know, yeah, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.960 that wouldn't be ideal. They say things like by Ford's 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.960 name and that kind of thing, you know, and his 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:58.280 school sort of assembly line structure. Um, it's basically it's 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:02.400 chopolated to society as a whole. Right, there's this world 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:07.560 state where emotions and individuality a conditioned out of children 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:13.080 and everyone belongs to everyone else, and you know there's 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:19.760 children are created in like factories and generated to be 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:24.680 part of specific classes, whether it be alpha, beta, gamma, delta, 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:30.280 or epsilon. So it's like it's kind of like what's what, 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.560 what's what's happening today? You know, in terms of the 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.159 Greek alphabet um, we have the alphas who are bred 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:38.800 to be like the leaders and stuff, and you're the 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.480 apsilons who are bred to be like the menial libras, 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:45.920 and you have the folks in between, and like they're 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.640 literally conditioned, you know, so like in the factory, in 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.800 the baby making factory, which is in this case literal 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.200 and not a euphemism for the womb um. You know, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:01.400 they like hold back on oxygen or they apply Cittain 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.799 chemicals or Cittain hormones in order to like condition people. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:10.360 So they don't do like genetic um like coding or whatever. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.720 They just they do a chemical concoctions in those sort 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.600 of test tubes. And yeah, I mean the story of 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.440 the world is really how it's affecting, Like that's the 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.360 top level of people within it and sort of contrasted 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.880 with sort of reservations that exist in their world where 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:35.320 people are a bit less restricted. Um. And it ends 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:40.840 pretty tragically. But the next book also ends a bit 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.240 tragically the extra for being Island, which is like the 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.360 utopian twin for a Brief New World in a lot 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.240 of ways in terms of memory, mirroring a lot of 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:56.720 the same themes that Brief New World explores. Right. So, 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.760 in Ireland there's this specific island called Parlor, which is 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.320 um fictional. I mean, there was an area in India 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.760 cold Parlor, but the island of Parlor in this world 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.800 is like it doesn't exist, right, And it's basically seen 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.720 as this oasis of happiness and freedom and where it's 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:23.560 inhabitants of resisted capitalism and consumerism and technology. Right then, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:28.760 this journalist, another British guy named Will Farnaby Um pulls 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.439 up on their island and he's basically trying to scoop 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.880 out the island for exploitation because he is friends with 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.800 this industrialist who was trying to like extract oil from 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:47.760 the region. And while he's going through the island and 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.920 really going through the society going through the book, there 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.800 are a lot of monologues and stuff I mean, this 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.280 book is kind of heavy on the monologues and the discussions. 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.839 It's kind of like Alice Hucksley's soup box for all 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.800 his ideas, just laying them all out there. Right. So 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.320 Will enters Palace a cynic, but by the time he 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.959 comes out, he's like he's had like layers on layers 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.880 of epiphanies. And I don't know for those who have 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.240 been reading to one of everything recently. Um. In chapter 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:24.120 two there the authors David when growing David group, but 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.920 they sort of outline some of the discussions that were 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:31.120 happening that were happening between Europeans and Indigenous Americans at 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.440 the time of arrival, and how those discussions were shaping 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:41.480 both um apparently Europeans view of society. Interestingly, it's kind 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.520 of like reflected here because you know, have this white 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.440 man who pulls up with all his English ideas, and 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.199 it's basically these indigenous inhabitants and parlor basically deconstructing his 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:57.800 ideas through dialogue, um, and through debate and discussion, and 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:03.439 unfortunately doesn't end very well. Despite you know, being convinced 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.280 of the purity and brilliance of the poloniese we have 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.560 lived in um he already made the deal with the 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:14.719 industrialist and pala um Is has basically been sold by 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:19.880 any by neighboring country and so it's downfall is now 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:26.120 sadly inevitable and that's how it ends. Oh and also 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.160 um will want to be kind of as like an LSD. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.920 Well sound really LSD, But it's like a psychedelic trip. Yeah, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:38.240 it's like a combination like and almost yeah yeah and 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.800 true how that sucks lee fashion. Yeah. Yeah, there's like 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.520 a lot of the tropes and like its themes that 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.520 were president Brave New World exists in island, but as 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.800 like their inversion, so like in terms of like it 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.840 showed like the like Brave New World has written before 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:00.800 Huxicalley had of psychedelics. It was so like his his 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.240 version of drug use is so different in that book. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.800 It's more like a pacifying drug um, whereas the drug 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.640 use in Ireland it's more like an like an enlightening drugs. 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.679 But there's a whole bunch of themes that like parallel 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:19.160 but are also inverted on each other. Yeah, exactly exactly, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.200 And we're gonna get into those themes just now. But 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:27.000 to summarize, for your New World is basically humans becoming 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:32.959 less than human because of all these technological and sociological 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:38.440 um efforts, where as Ireland is like the opposite we had, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.120 you know, humans are able to come into the fullness 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:47.920 of the humanness um while still using science, except in 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:52.719 a way to enhance their quality of life. I don't 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:54.920 know if I missed any aspect of either plots that 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.240 and if you want to like touch on a real 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.920 quick no, no, no reallyy okay, yeah, I mean I 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.719 will say the one thing is interested because Brave New 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.760 World also has this sort of like weird like going 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.360 to a reservation plot that's like, yeah, kind of a 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.520 b plot, but you see, sort of it's another one 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.960 of those things instead of like I don't know if 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:24.559 inverteds the right word, but the sort of context of 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.439 it is very, very different in Island than it isn't 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.240 Brave New World. Yeah, yeah, because I mean, in a sense, 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:38.080 you have this outside of protagonist who is introduced to 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:45.400 this alternate way of living um and is transformed by it, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.560 you know, except in Brave New Wild, you know, he 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:57.040 ends up killing himself and in Island, well, he already 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:03.079 sold out the island, you know, I will say one 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.040 criticism that I want to get out of the way 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.320 before we get into like the concepts and you know 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.640 how they might apply to politics as a whole. Really 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:18.200 is Huxley, like a lot of authors and thinkers and 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:27.160 ideologues of his time, has this very unsettling h fixation 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:32.440 on overpopulation. It's kind of like what we were talking 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.800 about UM with the last book we discussed here UM, 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.000 this sort of weird fixation and over population and you know, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:46.280 people dying out and that kind of thing. UM In 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:52.599 in Parlia and in Ireland there's a sort of acceptance 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.760 of um over population as something that needs to be 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.719 you know, avoided. And to guess that brings us to 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:07.240 the first theme, which is the use of contraception in 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.839 both books. Right, Like, on one hand, you have in 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:18.079 Brief New World where there's like mandatory contraception and people 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.440 are literally not allowed to like naturally give birth, you know, 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:26.600 they have to have baby's through test you Whereas in Parlor, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:32.800 you know, there's reproductive education and reproductive choice and expressive sex. 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:48.040 And it's really like a complete contrast. So I guess 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.600 I want to do something like I like speculating and 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:57.280 thinking about how anarchy would operate. UM, I think there 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.360 needs to be a lot more of that in terms 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.760 of um creative works and discussions. I mean, like there 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.800 was at the Coffee by mal Tester, and there are 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:13.960 some like utopian fictions out there, but I like less 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:19.640 than utopian, but still interesting explorations of anarchist society. It's 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.000 like there's lucky of the quins that is possessed. It 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.440 is interesting to me that even in mainstream sort of imagining, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.840 whenever there's an attempt to envision a utopia, there's nearly 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.960 always a lot of anarchist principles involved in that. It's 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.880 basically impossible to imagine a utopia without aspects of anarchist 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.560 theory making it into it exactly. And it tends to 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.800 be like some elements of anti work in there, and 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:51.000 like you know, like to post work, post hierarchy, freedom 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.560 of association. Yeah yeah, yeah, as I kind of want 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.400 to look at that, look at these works through that 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.600 lens as well. Here mostly Island considering Island is a 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:08.440 bit closer acty than Free New World is just a 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:16.080 little bit a little bit yeah yeah, Like when you 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:21.200 look at how sexual liberation is treated in Ireland, it 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.440 is pretty much an echo of what anarchists were saying 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.520 about free love in like nearly twenty like late nine century, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:32.360 you know, because I feel like I'm a good one, 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.840 like free choice and contraceptive access and that sort of thing, 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:43.840 reproductive choice, free love. It's really in Paula, I would see, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.240 UM they have this sort of elements as well of 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:54.000 like communal child rearing, I mean in UM, which is 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.640 another thing I spoke about that and like my video 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.680 in December on the family, like the fact that humans 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.280 basically the evolved in an alo parental arrangements, in a 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:09.320 corporative reading arrangement. Yeah, because from that, Yeah, there's a 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:10.960 lot of if you if you study how kind of 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.120 different societies that were not capitalists handled child rearing, there's 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.480 a lot of like very interesting. I think my favorite 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.840 is and it was some indigenous group in Um, South 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:27.240 America who's like cultural belief was that, um, you didn't 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.119 you didn't have like one man have sex with a woman, 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.400 and that like leads conceiving child. It starts the process. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.280 And so once you've started the process of making a child, 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.560 the woman then is going to pick out all of 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.000 the guys that she thinks have traits that she wants 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.560 to be like part of the child she's making, and 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.320 has sex with them because you're like gradually building the 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.600 child by having like adding additional sperm to it, which 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.280 means that when they have the kid, all of those 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.439 guys that she had sex pregnant have a responsibility to 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.840 rear the child and teach it things. I think is 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.040 objectively the best way to treat kids. I mean, even 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.520 on like, it's that's such an interesting metaphysical concept in 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.520 terms of like what constitutes like even like the the 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.040 idea of genetic makeup, because even though it's not like 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.200 literally true, it's still like if you can convince yourself 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.280 of that in your head, then it kind of is 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.320 physically true, and it will it will be true enough 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.800 for the kid because like, because most of these fathers, 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.480 fathers treats are gonna like manifest in the child anyway 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.399 because they were raised by them. Therefore, I think we 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:40.480 should all agree to just act like it works that way. Yeah, 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.080 But I mean like and also like in terms of 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.520 like the group living in Island versus like Brave New World, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.080 but everywhere else it's always like you don't you have 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.160 group living because you've lost like the idea of individuality 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.600 right versus groups. Living in Island is more like you 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.920 know how like anarchists have like group homes and that's 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.600 it's it's very similar to living a allows you to 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.960 be the best version of yourself because the best version 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.320 of yourself exists in the community. Yeah, exactly. There's like 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.560 there's like a barista or whatever. There's a kind of 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.520 like like a jokey fruition fist. I think about a 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.399 lot where it's like if you see a block and 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:16.639 like you're looking at it like a black block, right, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.879 It's like the way you can tell that there are 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:20.760 moose involved is if you see a bunch of people 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.200 actually like legitimately wearing all the same thing. It's like 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.120 like it's it's it's like it's it's really like it's 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:30.480 it's it's extremely rare that like, even even when you're 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.359 doing this for security reasons, that you can get a 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.399 bunch of anarchists who actually literally all wear exactly the 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.879 same thing. Because it's like it's like, yeah, you have 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:40.280 this sort of like I mean, okay, this is this 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.800 is not like always true, but like it's it's I 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.560 don't know, you you you have this thing where even 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.960 when you're like even when anarchists are like trying to 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.920 sort of like fade into a single mass, it's like 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.720 like like they literally can't do it because everyone has 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.560 this sort of like because individual street definitely seeing people 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.159 be at it block more often than I've seen them 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.720 be good at it. Yeah, it's like I mean like 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.200 the actual hiding part of it. Yeah, yeah, but I 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:12.919 don't know, like it's it's it's it's there's, there's there there. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.720 There's a way of sort of egalitarianism in sociality where 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:18.879 like you treat everyone as if they were exactly the 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.040 same and like and you know, and there there's models 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:23.520 of this word. It's like, yeah, it's like okay, you 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.120 actually try to like force everyone to be exactly the same, 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:27.720 where like everyone to be exactly the same in the class, 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.320 and like that sucks and you shouldn't do it. And 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.760 the alternative to that is everyone is just sort of 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.200 like in a group, but they're all like I don't 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.240 I remember entirely. Sure doesn't make any sense, but it's 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:45.000 I don't know, there are yeah. Yeah, it's like like 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.760 the purpose of the group is to like maintain like 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.640 you know, maybe like maintain the differentiation sheet of the individual. Yeah, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.280 to foster what makes the dividence really good at being 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.040 like their own person and give them the tools that 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.680 can you can set that up. Yeah, I think it's 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.120 like culturally we have like problems thinking about that because 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.800 like the sort of American version of individuality has to 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.520 do with like no, no no, no, you're you're an individual 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.679 because you have no connections to anyone else, And it's like, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.120 well this sucks. It is bad because and that kind 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.320 of goes back to the whole spoon building a baby concept. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.200 I didn't think I would ever use that freeze because 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:33.200 individuals only individuals, because their combination of influences are unique 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.359 to them. Yeah, well not just that. I mean obviously 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.560 it's not's a component and I'll know a lot, but 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.680 I think key aspect of it is that, you know, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.560 because we are reason needs different environments surrounded by different people, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.479 we have different experiences. That's what builds us up. You know, 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.320 Like I can I can already name off the top 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.080 of my head, like a bunch of like defining movements 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.320 from my childhood you know that basically changed my course, 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.520 you know, like the one time I got cyber bullied 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.480 in that fas like shifted my perspective and my approach 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.640 the internet to that kind of thing. You know. It's 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:10.159 like it really, I really can't imagine how someone could 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:14.560 come away with the idea that an individual is just 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.800 an individual on their own. Yeah, they just they just 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.320 pop out and are that thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.800 because like a large portion of you was built up 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:29.400 of previous you, and previously like exists, Like your previous 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.480 existence is what makes a large portion of yourself. And 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:35.679 like sure you can say you have a little bit 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.600 of like ego from the start, like your actual self 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.760 self that that you know, contributed to the way you 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.560 interpret events, which then will in turn build your personality. 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:47.920 But I think these things are not opposing. These things 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.639 work in tandem. But yeah, yes, it is like the 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.760 whole group living components. And also in that group of components, 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.400 you notice in at one point in the book, Um, 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.360 one of the children like basically in passing mentions that 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.320 you know, they don't want to go by a certain 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:08.600 person because they're mad at them or whatever, and so 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.280 they basically have that freedom to remove themselves from that 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:16.280 situation and go on, um sleep at another house or 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.879 another space until that sort of situation is resolved. And 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:26.080 I think that also would really be a crucial element 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:30.240 of society, particularly for children having that freedom of association 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:36.000 and freedom of movement, because imagine how many abusive situations 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.399 could be avoided over him. Indeed, if children had the 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:44.399 ability to come out of it. You know, we strict 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:48.440 children of choice, and that's what allows these sorts of 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.800 dynamics to persist, which then leads to dynamics that persist 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:56.560 in the next generation and so on and so on. 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.919 It's this thing that's having a resurgence in the United 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:02.640 States right now, and it's like at the core of 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:05.760 all of the book banning and the anti trans legislation, 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:09.119 which is this idea that like kids shouldn't have a 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:12.719 choice because that would interfere with parents having absolute control 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:14.720 over the life of their child, and then includes the 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:18.280 control to like, if a child says I'm this or 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:22.520 I'm that, the parent can say absolutely not. Yeah, exactly 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:25.520 if you had like this, U if you sort of 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:30.199 like too with like someone from from the past or 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.760 someone who lives in like a corpsive reading arrangement that 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:36.640 the pear and the child is the pearance property entirely. 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:39.879 It would look at you like real funny because the 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:42.679 child is part of the community, doesn't belong to anyone, 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:45.240 you know, if it belongs to anything, It just belongs 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:51.880 to the community as a whole, as as we all do. Yeah. 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:56.760 But yeah, another element I think I find, um, I 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:02.679 find really interesting and the way that probably society operates 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:06.520 is that. And I guess in comparison to Brief New World, 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.159 Unlike in Brief New World, where drugs are used like 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:17.160 UM likes and like all drugs are used for pacification 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:21.920 and control and self medication, that kind of thing to 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.800 sort of like chill you out and prevent you from 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:31.639 basically going mad in a mad society. Um in parlor, 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.320 you know, drug is used for bonding and for enlightenment 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:40.639 and for social connection and social cohesion. And it is 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:44.600 really really using that that he changes what drugs do 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:52.080 in his books, like after he starts doing them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. Now, 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:54.640 I actually don't know, you know, I used to have 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:58.000 because I had the opposite arc with with drugs, where 0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:01.320 I started doing them when I was very young and 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.440 had the belief that like they were kind of inherently 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:07.840 this mind opening tool that could be used to expand 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:12.560 the borders of reality within human beings and as an 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:15.080 adult um in part through some of the research I've 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:17.439 done on the far right, come to understand like, no, 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.679 you can also use them to reinforce the very limited, 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:23.320 terrible things you already believe. And there are folks who 0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:25.639 do that quite effectively, like that sort of appeel you 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:30.879 esotericism kind of Yeah, I don't know if I just 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:33.640 made up that too. I like, I like that term. 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:37.840 It's thinking of it's an accurate it's an accurate term 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:44.240 to describe the thing we're talking about. I'm taking it, okay, 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:46.359 Well yeah, yeah, I mean that that is absolutely correct, 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:51.439 because I mean, yeah, like those sort of psycho psychedelic 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:54.919 substances and stuff, Yeah, they can open your mind, but 0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:59.400 they are they're ultimately drawing from your mind, drawing from 0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:02.760 your pastis drances and believes in some capacity. The way 0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:06.199 I always describe it is that like psychedelics are an 0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:09.080