1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: Vacation Bible School. 3 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 3: I certainly went to Vacation Bible School every single summer, 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 3: as have my children, and we've loved it. But how 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 3: does a simple walk to VBS turn into murder? Murder 6 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 3: for an eight year old little girl, and how does 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 3: a book written years later shed light on this child's 8 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 3: disappearance and gruesome death. 9 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 10 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Sination 11 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 3: and Serious exem one eleven. 12 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 2: Take a listens to our friends a crime online. 13 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 4: It's a summertime ritual for many, Vacation Bible School and 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 4: that's where eight year old Gretchen Harrington was headed. She 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 4: left home planning to walk the half mile to Trinity 16 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 4: Christian Reform Church and then on to nearby Brumall Reform 17 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 4: Presbyterian Church. Gretchen's dad was a pastor there. Gretchen walked alone. 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 4: Usually she was accompanied by her two sisters, but this day, 19 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 4: the older girls decided to stay home to see a 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 4: newborn sister their mom was bringing home. Two hours passed 21 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 4: before Pastor Harrington found out. Gretchen never made it to BBS. 22 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 4: Trinity's pastor and his wife were working the vacation Bible 23 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 4: School program and they knew Gretchen well. One of their 24 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 4: daughters was Gretchen's best friend. After speaking with Gretchen's father, 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 4: the pastor called police, as Gretchen's father had asked. As 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 4: the day got dark around eight pm. No sign of Gretchen. 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: Wow, I cannot even imagine. So a short walk turns 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 3: into a disappearance. Joining me an all star panel to 29 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: make sense of what we know right now. 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: But first I want. 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 3: To go out to Audrey Conklin, crime reporter with Fox 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: News Digital. 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: Audrey, thank you so much for being with us. 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 3: Tell me where this happened and how far this eight 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 3: year old little girl had to walk. 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 5: It happened in Marple Township, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb 37 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 5: of Philadelphia, where as I have learned, a lot of people, 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 5: a lot of families moved to kind of escape urban crime, 39 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 5: and the walk wasn't far. Her father was actually passed 40 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 5: through at one of the churches that was part of 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 5: this Bible camp. So he washed her leave home every 42 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 5: morning and walked to camp. And on that morning, for 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 5: some reason, he just turned around and didn't see her. 44 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 5: Finish her walk up the road. 45 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 3: Now, this is just so reminiscent of the disappearance of 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: little Aton Pats who the first day he was to 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: walk to school, and I believe it's only one or 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 3: two blocks, and they've been practicing and practicing the very 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: first day that he. 50 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: Used to walk to school. 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 3: He is kidnapped and murdered again with me an all 52 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: star panel to make sense of what we know right now. 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: But interesting to Jarrett Farentino joining me high profile homicide prosecutor, 54 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 3: joining us out of the Pennsylvania jurisdiction, Jarrett, in a 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 3: world where it should be safe to let your child 56 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 3: walk one block or two blocks, it's not. It's really 57 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: not safe at all, Jarrett. 58 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 6: It could happen anywhere, any place, at any time, and 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 6: it looks like this little girl and she was targeted. 60 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 6: She was alone that day, there was a lot going 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 6: on at their home. It's just horrifying here in Pennsylvania 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 6: and anywhere when this happens. 63 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: What can you tell me about this particular area, Jarrett Fiorentino, 64 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: Is that rural are there? Is there a dense population, 65 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 3: is it wooded, is it farmland? 66 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: What is it? 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 6: It's less rule today than it was then. But it 68 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 6: certainly was Nancy an escape, a place where people and 69 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 6: families such as this would go to escape the rigors 70 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 6: of the city and the dangers of the city. 71 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 7: Quite honestly, you know, a. 72 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 6: Child should be safe in any community, particularly this one, 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 6: to walk to Bible School. 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: Even now, Broomall only has a population. 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 3: Ten thousand, seven eighty nine, and that was a couple 76 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: of years ago that since this was taken, but still 77 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: a very very small area. Joining me right now, Brandon 78 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: m Great special guest Chief of Police in the Marple 79 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: Township PD there in brooml You can find them at 80 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: Marplepolice dot com. Chief, thank you for being. 81 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 7: With us, Thank you for having me. 82 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 3: I believe that the case of this little girl, Gretchen 83 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: Harrington has hung like a pall, like a specter over 84 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 3: the police department when you first came in as chief, 85 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 3: were you familiar with Gretchen's case? 86 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 8: Oh? 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 9: Yes, not only when I became chief in twenty twenty, 88 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 9: but when I got hired here Marple it was a 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 9: you know, one of three unsolved serious cases homicides that 90 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 9: were part of the lure of this police department, and 91 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 9: of course with the neat year old girls the victim. 92 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 9: It ranks right at the top of those that really 93 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 9: stick in the crawl. 94 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's true that certain cases define certain areas, 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: like Atlanta is always associated with the Wayne Williams serial killings, 96 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: were dozens of children and teens go missing. 97 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: And are murdered by Wayne Williams. It goes on. For instance, 98 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: people associate, let's just see Ted Bundy with the Cayomega killings, 99 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: although he started out west. You associate Scott Peterson with Modesto. 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: It's a horrible stigma to be attached to any particular town. 101 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: But that was the impact of the disappearance of this. 102 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 3: Eight year old little girl on her way to Bible 103 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 3: School of all places, take a listen to our friend 104 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 3: Dave Mack. 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 4: Hundreds of people took part in the search for the 106 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 4: little girl. A police helicopter continuously flew overhead. Teams of 107 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 4: searchers combed the hillside of the community. Friends and family 108 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 4: handed out flyers with Gregen's picture on it. Some witnesses 109 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 4: said they had seen Gregen outside a car talking to someone, 110 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 4: but nothing came of the lead. Just two days after 111 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 4: she disappeared, with little to go on, police called off 112 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 4: the large scale search. 113 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. 114 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: We're more familiar with the ways of the world now, 115 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 3: but when I see a kid outside a car, I 116 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: always stop. I just stopped and I watch to see 117 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: what happened, will what will happen because I'm just so 118 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: indoctrinated in cars snatching children. At the time Gretchen was 119 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: snatched off the street, no one thought a thing about it, 120 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 3: and then a gruesome discovery listen. 121 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: Two months after Gretchen left for vacation Bible school, a 122 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 4: jogger found skeletonized human remains of a little girl. The 123 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 4: Harringtons confirmed the clothing found with the body as Gretchen's. 124 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 4: It was only twenty minutes from her home. Dental records 125 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: were used to positively identify the remains. Gretchen's manner of 126 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 4: death was ruled a homicide. The girl's skull had been 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 4: fractured by multiple vicious blows. An autoposy did not reveal 128 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 4: sex assault, but police believed that was the motive. Police 129 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: received numerous tips, but none lead to a suspect. 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: Joining me right now. 131 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 3: Renowned medical examiner, the chief medical Examiner for Alleghany County, 132 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: doctor Carl Williams and Fyi. Alleghany County is in Pennsylvania 133 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: where Gretchen was kidnapped and murdered. Doctor Williams, thank you 134 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: for being with us, please, Doctor Williams. A couple of 135 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: questions about the discovery of Gretchen's body. Now we know 136 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 3: that even though hundreds of people had taken part in 137 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: the search for this little girl combing the hillside of 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: the community, it was two months after she goes missing 139 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: a jog or finds or skeletonized remains. She was identified 140 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: by her clothing and by dental records. Is it odd 141 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: that she is totally skeletonized in just two months. 142 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 7: No, depending on the season, that can happen in a 143 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 7: matter of weeks very easily. So that's not surprising. That's 144 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 7: not surprising at all. 145 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 3: You know, we're so used to watching programs on TV 146 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: and Blockbuster movies where all sorts of high tech is used. 147 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: The truth is, that's not truth. It's not like that. 148 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: Very often. 149 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 3: Ideas are made from clothing, are made from dental records, 150 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: and then if. 151 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: We can get DNA, we do. 152 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: How is the identification of a body made through dental records, 153 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 3: Doctor Williams. 154 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 7: Well, you really don't even need dental records in this 155 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 7: case because the identitian was so intact and so obvious 156 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 7: from the photographs. But that was the combination of the 157 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 7: distinctive clothing, the braids, and the hair. It was a 158 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 7: pretty easy identification. They say dental records. I'm not even 159 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 7: sure if she had records, but you wouldn't even need 160 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 7: it because of the distinctive nature of the insize or 161 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 7: some things. It was a pretty straightforward identification. 162 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: What do you mean by the distinctive features of the incisors? 163 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 7: She had two large incisors, gaps on either side, and 164 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 7: the photographs okay, so just as a matter of the 165 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 7: stage of dentician. So I didn't see any specific records. 166 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 7: I didn't any specific reference to dental records other than 167 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 7: dental identification. So having the pictures, having the incisors are 168 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 7: found in the skullton things that would have been sufficient. Again, 169 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 7: very distinctive braids in the hair, very distinctive clothes. I 170 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 7: don't think there was any question whatsoever about the identification. 171 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace. 172 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 3: It's very curious to me, doctor Carl Williams, that you 173 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: have mentioned the gap next to her incisors. 174 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: I noticed the same thing. 175 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 3: It looks like she still had her baby teeth in 176 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: part some of them. 177 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 7: You're absolutely right. Just seeing the photograph and comparing that 178 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 7: with what would have been seen in the skeletonized remains, 179 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 7: I would not have had any problem in making the 180 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 7: identification for those of. 181 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: You that cannot see doctor Williams and I are talking about, 182 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 3: I'm looking at a picture of this. I mean, just 183 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 3: a precious, precious little girl, the daughter of a Presbyterian 184 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: minister and his wife, who goes missing mid August on 185 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: her way to Bible school at Trinity Church Chapel. She's 186 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: got a big smile and when he's saying the gap 187 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: beside her incisors on either side of the nose if 188 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: you come straight down, there is a big noticeable gap 189 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 3: to the side on her right side of her front teeth, 190 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: a big gap between that, and it's on the top 191 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: and the bottom. When she smiles, it kind of makes 192 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: a diamond shape of a gap. It's very noticeable, and 193 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: you see her adult teeth, her adult front two teeth 194 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 3: have come in, but from there back it looks like 195 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: she this little child still has her baby teeth, and 196 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 3: there's a big gap between the hront teeth and the 197 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: beginning of the teeth. Now the incisor, isn't that basically 198 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: your fangs? 199 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 7: Yeah? 200 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: Exactly, okayisers now I see what you're saying. 201 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: It's a big gap between the front tooth and the incisor, 202 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 3: your vampire fang. 203 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: Got it. It's very noticeable. 204 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: And I'm sure when her grown teeth will come in 205 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: that would have straightened up. But this little child never 206 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 3: even got her adult teeth. This little baby girl still 207 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: had her baby teeth. I'm curious, do we know, Audrey 208 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: Conklin or doctor Carl Williams. Was she clothed? Well, she 209 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 3: was clothed when she was found, because she was partially 210 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 3: identified based on her clothing. Is that right, Audie Conklin, Yes. 211 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 5: I believe part of her clothing was ripped damaged in 212 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 5: some way. 213 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: Did you say ripped? Yeah, there goes, there goes, doctor Williams. 214 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: Go ahead, doctor, Well, I. 215 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 7: Was gonna say, you can't tell again by the clothes 216 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 7: because they'd be associated again with the decomposition. And it 217 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 7: was August, and in August a matter of weeks is 218 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 7: more than enough because the skeletonization and the clothes typically 219 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 7: would be at least a part of that. So everything 220 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 7: fits in a way, and why she was not found 221 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 7: I can't say back. 222 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: To doctor Jeff Kealashevski, renowned psychologists joining us, author of 223 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 3: Dark Sides. You can find them on TikTok at doctor 224 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: Jeff Kalashevski. Doctor, I mean I name a shrink because 225 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: why with the perp fold up the child's clothes next 226 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 3: to her naked body and put her underwear up in 227 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 3: a tree. 228 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 8: Well, I'll tell you when you look at So this 229 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 8: area in the research is called sexual homicide, and we 230 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 8: know a lot more about sexual homicide with adult victims 231 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 8: than we actually do about child victims. Well, thing that 232 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 8: we do know in the research is that typically with 233 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 8: sexual homicide child victims, this tends to be more of 234 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 8: a crime of opportunity and not as well planned out. 235 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 8: So what we see in sexual homicide of child cases 236 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 8: is a lot of times the perpetrator has not really 237 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 8: figured it all out and hadn't really premeditated a plan. 238 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 8: You know, in a situation where he folds the clothes 239 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 8: and puts the underwear in the tree, it's obvious that 240 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 8: he wanted to signal so that the child would be found, 241 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 8: which just offers more questions rather than any answers about 242 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 8: his motivation behind the ground, and. 243 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: Doctor Kelshevski another question. The part left her there and 244 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 3: closed out in the woods with her underwear hanging up 245 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: in a branch like a flag. But he made rudimentary 246 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: steps in trying to cover up her body. That's something 247 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: I've always been curious about, Doctor Kelishevski. A killer's attempt 248 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 3: to hide, particularly the face. Now, I understand burying about 249 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: it because you don't want it to be found, but 250 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: he didn't do a. 251 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: Very good job. 252 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: He was more hiding part of her, hiding her with 253 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: Lee's what is a phenomena of killers trying to cover 254 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 3: the faces of their victims. 255 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 8: In situations, particularly when there's a sexual homicide. I mean, 256 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 8: I've seen a lot of cases myself where killers do 257 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 8: various things to people's faces. I had a case where 258 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 8: a guy super glued the victim's eye shut, and when 259 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 8: I asked him about it, he talked about how it 260 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,359 Speaker 8: was unpleasant for him to see the victim's face, particularly 261 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 8: when the victim was alive. So the motivation behind the 262 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 8: idea of not covering the face or covering the face. 263 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 8: You know, it really has to do with in that moment, 264 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 8: what the murderer is sort of getting out of that experience, 265 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 8: in what they don't want to be exposed to. 266 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: I understand. 267 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about this little eight year old girl and 268 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: what she lived through before her murder, and then, seemingly, 269 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: out of the blue, we hear from an author. An 270 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: author Joanna Falcone Sullivan take a listen to our friends 271 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: at KYWTV. 272 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 10: Joanna was nine years old and living in Brumal, Delaware County, 273 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 10: when eight year old Gretchen Harrington was kidnapped while walking 274 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 10: to a vacation Bible school less than a quarter mile 275 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 10: from her home. Gretchen's body was found by a jogger 276 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 10: in a state park nearly two months later. The case 277 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 10: has always haunted this journalist, so she wrote the book 278 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 10: detailing the ongoing investigation. 279 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 11: I had wanted to write this story for. 280 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: Decades and more. Listen. 281 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 11: I grew up in Broomall. My co author Mike Mathis 282 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 11: grew up in Broomall as well. He grew up in 283 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 11: Lawrence Park where this happened. It affected both of us 284 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 11: as kids, and it affected a lot of kids. We 285 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 11: started interviewing people. We went to Marble Police Department and 286 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 11: went through the file repeatedly. 287 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: In joining me right now that author Joanna Falcone Sullivan, 288 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: co author of marpls Gretchen Harrington Tragedy, Kidnapping, murder and 289 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: Innocence Lost in suburban Philadelphia. 290 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: Wow, that title really says it all. Joanne. 291 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 3: I've got so many questions for you, But first of all, 292 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: thank you for being with us. And tell me how 293 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 3: Gretcha's disappearance, her kidnap, her assault and murder affected you 294 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 3: as a child growing up in the same area. 295 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 12: You know, one of those things that never left my mind. 296 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 12: I remember that day very vividly, and so does Mike, 297 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 12: my co author. We talked about it over the years. 298 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 12: We ran into each other at a high school reunion 299 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 12: and we talked about writing the book together, and you know, 300 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 12: it was something that I remember so clearly. I remember 301 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 12: following the story over the years, and it always was 302 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 12: so sad to me because things really seemed to change 303 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 12: after that for a lot of families. 304 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: How did things change? 305 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 12: I think, you know, people we had the feeling that 306 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 12: we were so safe, we were invincibles in this you know, 307 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 12: at this time and after this, I remember, you know, 308 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 12: thinking when people would say, oh, it was so great 309 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 12: to be able to ride your bikes till midnight and 310 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 12: don't come in until the dinner belt found sounded. And 311 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 12: you know, I hear people of my generation saying that, 312 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 12: and I all I could think of was Gretchen Harrington. 313 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 12: You know it was not true. It was not you know, 314 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 12: you were not so steep all the time. 315 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting and what you're saying, Joanna guys 316 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 3: with me. Joeannaflcone Sullivan, the co author of a definitive 317 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 3: book on Gretchen's eight year old Gretchen's disappearance and murder, Joanna, 318 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: I would walk home from Bible school and home from school. 319 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: We'd catch a bus or a ride to get there 320 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 3: in the mornings, but would walk home. It was over 321 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: a mile, but both my parents would be gone to 322 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 3: work by then, and nobody thought a thing about it. 323 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: And yes, we could. 324 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 3: Ride iur bikes until literally we heard the chimes and 325 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: the church steeple, and that would mean it was about 326 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 3: six o'clock and we needed to go home, or would 327 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: hear my mom or dad too the car horn in 328 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: the distance, and we would know that that was our 329 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 3: horn and we had to come home because we would 330 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: be so far away. And it was absolutely fine. But 331 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: the reality is, in many places it's not. I mean, 332 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: it would be through hell and high water that I 333 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: would let my children go out at age eight and 334 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 3: walk anywhere by themselves, period, end of story. But I 335 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 3: guess it's because of the business I'm in. Most people 336 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: are very trusting, as were Gretchen's parents. I mean, she 337 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: had such a short distance to go from where her 338 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 3: dad was pastor to the next church over for Bible school. 339 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 3: Who would have thought in that short space now? Joanna 340 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 3: fl Cone Sullivan, author of Marpool's Gretchen Harrington Tragedy. Joanna, 341 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: you said you remember the day so clearly when you learned. 342 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: About Gretchen's disappearance. What is your recollection? 343 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 12: My recollection is we were at our swim club called 344 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 12: the Large Park Swim Club, not far from where Gretchen 345 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 12: was abducted, and we started seeing a helicopter flying over 346 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 12: the woods behind the swim club. So of course everyone 347 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 12: was curious, you know, what's going on? You know, we 348 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 12: didn't know until we got home that day that a 349 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 12: little girl was missing, and that stuck with me. We 350 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 12: ended up the first chapter starts with that helicopter, and 351 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 12: we discovered over the years that it was the same 352 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 12: memory that so many people had. Mike and I talked 353 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 12: to so many people and they remember that day with 354 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 12: the helicopter. They the next day, Mike remembers his dad 355 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 12: took part in the search. There were hundreds of community members, 356 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 12: volunteer firefighters, police from other jurisdictions participating in the search, 357 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 12: and they combed the area. They combed the creek area, 358 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 12: the woods behind. There were a lot more woods back then. 359 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 12: But you know, so that those days were very vivid, 360 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 12: And I also remember her being found because there was 361 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 12: always that hope that maybe she would be found alive. 362 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 12: And that October day when she was found, I remember 363 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 12: and seeing it in the papers. I was a newtown 364 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 12: then as well, and read the Philadelphia papers and the 365 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 12: local Delaware County papers, and I remember that very clearly. 366 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 3: You know, Joanna, just the way you describe that just 367 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 3: runs chills down me. That you remember seeing the helicopters overhead, 368 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 3: and then finding out a couple of months later, the 369 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: hope that she was alive somewhere, and then finding out 370 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 3: that her remains had been found. I've got a question 371 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: for you, Joanna, and maybe Chief Graef can answer. Chief 372 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 3: of police there in Marble Township, did search or search 373 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: that area of woods where her body was ultimately found, either. 374 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 9: Of you know no where she was found was I think, 375 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 9: as the crow flies, probably about five miles away. 376 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: Okay, I'll tell you what I was worried about, Chief. 377 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 3: I was worried that she was held captive. If they 378 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 3: had searched that area and didn't find her, and then 379 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 3: two months later a jograph finds her in that same area, 380 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 3: that is even worse because that would have meant he 381 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 3: kept her alive, raping her and sodomizing her for a 382 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 3: period of time, and then went and put her body 383 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: out there, hanging her underwear up in a tree so 384 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 3: she would be found. 385 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: That is an even worse scenario. 386 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: So I'm glad to hear that guys with us an 387 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 3: all star panel and including the woman who takes the 388 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: case on based on memories she had a Gretchen going 389 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 3: missing on her walk to Bible school and then really 390 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: digging in to find the truth, but then out of 391 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: nowhere a break. 392 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at crime Online. 393 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 4: Years passed before a case busting phone call come into 394 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 4: the Marble Township headquarters. A woman says she thinks she 395 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 4: knows who killed Gretchen. The officer contacts state police, an 396 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 4: interview is set up. The woman spoke of her diaries 397 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 4: kept as a little girl and about an incident that 398 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 4: happened it pastored David Zanstra's home. The woman was friends 399 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 4: with the pastor's daughters. During a sleepover, she said she 400 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 4: woke up to Pastor Zanstra touching her private area. She 401 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 4: moved and says he immediately rushed from the room, but 402 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 4: the next night it happened again. She mentioned what happened 403 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 4: to her friend and they said, basically, he does that sometimes. 404 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 4: The girl told her parents it was the last time 405 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 4: she stated a Zanstra's home. Police came to believe that 406 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 4: incident happened one week before Gretchen disappeared. 407 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 3: Okay, Audrey Conklin joining US investigative report with Fox News Digital. 408 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: What all the parents did was say, Okay, well, you 409 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: can't stay over there anymore. Nobody brought a case against 410 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 3: this guy, and am I getting it right? 411 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 5: He's a pastor, Yes, she was a pastor, And I 412 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 5: leave a pretty well known member of the community. I 413 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 5: don't know exactly how parents handled these accusations from his 414 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 5: daughter's friend, but I guess, I guess according to her account, 415 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 5: it was kind of pushed under the rug. 416 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: Joining me is the chief of police there in Marvel Township, 417 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 3: Chief Brandon M. 418 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: Graf. 419 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 3: Tell me about what happened. Tell me about what this 420 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 3: little girl said. 421 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 9: Well, we got a phone call from her in January 422 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 9: of this year and she spoke with or a sergeant 423 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 9: of detectives, Nick Coffin, and told him about the diary, 424 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 9: told him about her suspicions, and the ANSWER's name had 425 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 9: been peppered throughout the file, although nothing you know, that 426 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 9: would draw anyone's attention, you know, five ten forty years later, 427 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 9: during the investigations or the relooction looking back into it. 428 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 9: So we took the information and frankly, because of Joanna 429 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 9: and Mike's work on the book, I had reached out 430 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 9: to the State Police barracks, the cold case unit, who 431 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 9: was handling the murder investigation. So even before this woman 432 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 9: called us, you know, the bulls was rolling, you know, 433 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 9: a little. 434 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 7: Faster, I'll say. 435 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 9: You know, the interest was peaked again between us and 436 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 9: the state police. So you know, it's kind of like 437 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 9: a perfect storm because they had, you know, continued to 438 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 9: look into it or you know, their investigators. You know, 439 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 9: I would say, probably put it more at the top 440 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 9: of the list of the cold cases. And then this 441 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 9: woman calls fortuitously and we get them the information and 442 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 9: you know, off it went. 443 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 3: I'm with you, Chief Grave, I do not believe there 444 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 3: are coincidences in criminal law. So Joanna Falcone Sullivan and 445 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 3: her co author published Marple's Gretchen Harrington Tragedy, Kidnapping, Murder 446 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: and Innocence Lost in Suburban Philadelphia. 447 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: That is published. 448 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: I think it was in October and in January, this 449 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 3: woman calls in to recount what happened to her is 450 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 3: do I have the timeline correct? 451 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 9: Chief, Yes, ma'am, yes you do. 452 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 3: Okay, so no coincidence. Take a listen to our friends 453 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: at KYWTV. 454 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 9: Today. 455 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 13: Police invited us along as they looked for a report 456 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 13: filed by a mom who told officers back then a 457 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 13: stranger attempted to kidnap her son near Westchester Pike and 458 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 13: Newardmore Avenue. Chief Brandon Graef, a. 459 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 9: Man pulled up in a car, opened the trunk, got 460 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 9: out and actually grabbed her brother and she they just 461 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 9: knew he was going to with the intention of kidnapping him. 462 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 13: Police are still looking for that incident report that goes 463 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 13: back to the nineteen seventies concerning that attempted kidnapping, and 464 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 13: eyewitness to the crime first contacted us here at CBS 465 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 13: News Philadelphia, concerned about the information she knew the way 466 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 13: back when about that attempted kidnapping. 467 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 3: So you've got Gretchen, eight year old, Gretchen kidnapped, sex assaulted, 468 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 3: and murdered. You've got another little girl who was molested 469 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: at the hands of a pastor at a sleepover. 470 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: And now you've got. 471 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 3: A little boy who was the victim of an attempted 472 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: kidnapping in a vehicle. How many other victims are out there? 473 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: And then finally take a list hour cut thirteen. 474 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 13: Ky WTV prosecutor say Zanstra, a one time reverend, moved 475 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 13: around a lot. The results of a DNA test are 476 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 13: pending and will be entered into a national database to 477 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 13: determine possible connections to other investigations. 478 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 9: My mind go to the places that he's lived at, 479 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 9: you know, for the past forty eight years in Texas, 480 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 9: California and Georgia. You know this general is not somebody 481 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 9: who doesn't do this one time. 482 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 3: True or words were never spoke and now sent to 483 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: Fox five our cut one. 484 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 14: He's accused of murdering eight year old Gretchen Harrington and Zanstruk. 485 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 14: At the time, I'd been working as a pastor at 486 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 14: a Pennsylvania church. In August of nineteen seventy five, police 487 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 14: tell us that Gretchen left her home to go to 488 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 14: Bible camp that was hosted by that very same church. 489 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 14: And that's when investigator say, zanstru who was also a 490 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 14: family friend of the Herringtons, abducted her, took her to 491 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 14: the woods, and beat her to death when she refused 492 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 14: to take off her clothes. It took them about two 493 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 14: months to find her body. 494 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: Back to our friend joining us from Fox News Digital, 495 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 3: Audrey Coughlin, Audrey, what is the understanding now of what 496 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 3: happened to Gretchen? 497 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 5: We understand now that Gretchen was sought out by xanstra 498 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 5: and attacked and left her dead, unfortunately, and he went 499 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 5: on to live the rest of his life. He had 500 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 5: a family. He was eighty three years old at the 501 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 5: time of his arrest. So we under the radar for decades. 502 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: But police paint a very different picture of him, as 503 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 3: opposed to the image of a loving and benevolent local 504 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 3: pastor take us now are cut For Joe. 505 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 13: Holden, police painted a picture of an evil man who, 506 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 13: they say, Lord gretchento his car, attempted to molest her 507 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 13: and then beat her to death when she refused to 508 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 13: give into his demands. Her remains were located months later 509 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 13: at Ridley Creek State Park. 510 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 15: He killed this poor eight year old girl he knew 511 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 15: and who trusted him, and then he acted as if 512 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 15: he was a family friend, not only doing her burial 513 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 15: and the period after that, but for. 514 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: Years prime stories with Nancy Grace. 515 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: Doctor carl A. 516 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: Williams joining as chief medical Examiner Alleghany County there in Pennsylvania. 517 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 3: Doctor Williams, I know that you have literally performed thousands 518 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: and thousands of autopsies. How is it different for you 519 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: to perform an autopsy on a little girl? 520 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, children are all was difficult for emotional reasons. I mean, 521 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 7: the technology, what you have to do, what you have 522 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 7: to document is all pretty much the same, but it's 523 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 7: harder to separate it from the emotional content. Of dealing 524 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 7: with a child. So that's about all I can say. 525 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 7: You know, you can do thousands of autopsies and still 526 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 7: have kind of an emotional response to certain types of cases. 527 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: So it's difficult, isn't it true? 528 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 3: Chief Graf that it was the defendant himself that called 529 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 3: nine to one one. 530 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 9: Yes, it was as sick as it makes you feel. Yeah, 531 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 9: he was, and just like the strict attorney Stolsteimer said 532 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 9: in his news conference, you know, really is the epitome 533 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 9: of evil. You know. He played himself as the good 534 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 9: family friend that he was and that the Harringtons believed 535 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 9: him to be, But he was. 536 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 4: The one that called take a listener, our cut f 537 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 4: Zanstra told troopers he offered Gretchen a ride that day, 538 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 4: which she accepted, but Zanstra didn't drive toward the church. 539 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 4: Realizing it, Gretchen asked to go home. Zanstra described how 540 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 4: he took her to a wooded area where she refused 541 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 4: his demands for her to take off her clothes. That's 542 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 4: when Zanstra attacked, beating the girl in the head with 543 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 4: his fist, killing her. He covered her half naked body 544 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 4: with sticks in the woods before resuming his life. 545 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: Jarrett F. 546 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: Garantina joining me. Renowned homicide prosecutor Jarrett so often the 547 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 3: molester or the killer of children as a trusted family friend, 548 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 3: a relative, a member of the neighborhood that no one 549 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 3: whatever suspect. 550 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 6: We know Nancy. Those predators, they operate in many instances 551 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 6: on trust, and it looks like Danstra built that trust 552 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 6: both with this family and this little girl before and after. 553 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 6: That's part of their weapon, that trust both in the 554 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 6: community and oftentimes with they're victims, and this case is 555 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 6: no different. 556 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: Now. 557 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 3: She's been asked many times if she believes her book 558 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 3: brought about this arrest. Take alsafras A kyw in Our Cut. 559 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 10: Eight when asked if she believes her book may have 560 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 10: helped police get the break they needed to make an 561 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 10: arrest in this case. Nearly fifty years later. 562 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 11: We've been told that by Marvel Police and we're encouraged 563 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 11: that we somehow contributed to this. We got people talking again. 564 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 10: Well, this was Joanna's first book, but she says she 565 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 10: does plan to revise and edit this true crime story 566 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 10: here to now reflect the arrest and any updated in 567 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 10: from about this case. 568 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: Joanna Falcone Sullivan joining us along with Chief Brandon m. Graf, Joanna, 569 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 3: you're two modest. I agree with the Chief that it's 570 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 3: no coincidence your book comes out and then the other 571 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 3: little girl, now grown woman, comes forward. It's amazing in retrospect, 572 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 3: How do you feel about the journey you've been through 573 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 3: investigating this case. 574 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 12: We never imagine this kind of outcome. You know, we 575 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 12: had hoped that maybe you had shed some light on 576 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 12: the case. We had named a prime suspect who died 577 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 12: in jail. We were hoping, you know, eventually DNA evidence 578 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 12: would come, you know, help solve this. So we never 579 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 12: imagine this. We had hoped for this, and you know, 580 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 12: in many ways, I'm relieved. I mean, the family will 581 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 12: never you know, still never get over it, you know, 582 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 12: but hopefully they've found some peace. I imagine it's really 583 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 12: hard the fact that it was someone it could be 584 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 12: somebody they knew and trusted. 585 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 3: Again, you are too humble and too modest. You and 586 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: your co author have done an amazing, amazing thing. Of course, 587 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: it could not have been done without the Marvel. 588 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: Police, correct, Chief Grace. When you reflect on this, yes, 589 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: justice was slow in coming, but it came. 590 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 9: It finally came, and you know, the wheels of justice. 591 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 9: We all know if they grind, they grind, Souwy, but honestly, 592 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 9: they don't stop, especially in cases like this, they don't stop. 593 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 9: When you're advocating for an eight year old girl who 594 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 9: can no longer speak for herself, it's our job than 595 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 9: to take that the con and speak for her and 596 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 9: her family and do everything we can to see that 597 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 9: she can rest truly in peace. 598 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 3: You know, Chief Grace. I remember going to so many 599 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 3: crime scenes and visiting with so many crime victims families, 600 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 3: and they would I'd go to their home and sit 601 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: me down somewhere, usually in the living room, and I 602 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 3: could tell it was the best chair, and they would 603 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 3: look at me, expecting me to pull some kind of 604 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 3: magic trick and make everything okay. And I would always 605 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: leave feeling like crap because I couldn't make everything okay. 606 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 2: Again, people look to. 607 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 3: Law enforcement as if we're going to have all the 608 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 3: answers and we're going to find the person in a 609 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 3: timely manner and justice will proceed. At the end of 610 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 3: the day, they're going to feel better. But we're not magicians. 611 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 3: We can't work miracles. 612 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 2: Chief. I'm just amazed at what. 613 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 3: Your force has done of course, with the help of 614 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 3: Joe NFL Consulivan's. 615 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 2: It's amazing to me this case was ever solved. 616 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 7: Thank you. 617 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 9: And it is a team effort. It always has been 618 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 9: and was. You know, as law enforcement we grapple with 619 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 9: you know, the responsibility of everyone expects prevention, right, we 620 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 9: want to prevent crime from happening. We know that's not possible, 621 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 9: so the best we can do is once a crime happens, 622 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 9: you know, now our responsibilities do everything we can to 623 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 9: get justice for victims. We don't know what we don't 624 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 9: know as far as prevention, you know, we don't know 625 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 9: what we prevent. But you know, the cases like this, 626 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 9: and I honestly can speak for all law enforcement here. 627 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 9: Cases like this don't ever get dusty. They really don't, 628 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 9: you know. 629 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 3: To doctor Jeff Kelschewsky joining US renowned forensic psychologist and 630 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 3: author of Dark Sides, Doctor Jeff, you know, I was 631 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 3: listening to Joe NFL Coon Solomon just a few moments 632 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 3: ago talking about trying to help the family. And it 633 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: does help the family, it does. If she ever wonders, 634 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 3: if you ever wonder, Joanna, you have no idea how 635 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 3: much justice and resolution means. But dtr Klashevsky, I want 636 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 3: to be clear about one thing. As a victim of 637 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 3: violent crime myself, it changes you forever. You never quote 638 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 3: get over it. It changes you. It just changes your DNA 639 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 3: kind of. I've had people come up to me and say, 640 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: you know, you're nothing like you used to be before 641 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 3: Keith was murdered my fiance. I don't even remember that girl. 642 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 3: Dr Klashevski, I don't even remember what they describe to 643 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 3: me as how I was then and now. 644 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 2: And affakes everything for the rest of your life. 645 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 8: It absolutely does, And I think you really hit the 646 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 8: nail on the head. You don't get over something like this. 647 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 8: When I would work doing tree mill of folks who've 648 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 8: been through terms of crime, you have to try to 649 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 8: help them get pasted as well as they can. But 650 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 8: you're absolutely right, you're fundamentally changed as a person after 651 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 8: something like this. 652 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 3: But step number one and at least moving forward with 653 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 3: your life in some fashion, not the way you were before, 654 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 3: but in some fashion. It's a resolution to what happened 655 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: to the person you loved and you, Joanna FELCN Sullivan 656 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 3: and you, Chief Brandon M. Graff and your department have 657 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 3: given that to this child's family, and there are no 658 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 3: words to thank you. Okay, one down, ten million to go, Goodbye.