1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:00,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 2 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 2: I mean I feel like we've let go of timelines 3 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 2: so hugely in this past year and a half, Like 4 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: the idea of deadlines and timelines and time has just 5 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: been so elastic. I've had to create discipline that I 6 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: didn't have previously. And I also like react badly when 7 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 2: people are like, Okay, this has to be done by this. 8 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 3: Time, and it's like, well, why if time is elastic? 9 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: Is that what you say? How does that go? 10 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 3: Over's? Literally as like I wish i'd said that. I'm not. 11 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 3: I didn't say that to anybody except you. 12 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Start I'm going to start saying that to my manager. 13 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: Time is elastic? 14 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 3: What do you mean? Eleven thirty? Time is elastic? 15 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Mini driver and welcome to Mini Questions. I've 16 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: always loved Pruce's questionnaire. It was originally an eighteenth century 17 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: parlor game meant to reveal an individual's true nature, but 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: with so many questions, there wasn't really an opportunity to 19 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: expand on anything. So I took the format of Prus's 20 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: questionnaire and adapted what I think are serve one of 21 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: the most important questions you could ever ask someone they 22 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 2: are when and where were you happiest what is the 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: defines love for you? What question would you most like answered, 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most? 26 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: What would be your last meal? And can you tell 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: me something in your life that has grown out of 28 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: a personal disaster. The more people we ask, the more 29 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: we begin to see what makes us similar and what 30 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: makes us individual. I've gathered a group of really remarkable 31 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: people who I am honored and humbled to have had 32 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: a chance to engage with. My guest today is musician, author, 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: and poet in my estimation, Michelle's Honor. Michelle records as 34 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: the band Japanese Breakfast, and her new record Jubilee is 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,639 Speaker 2: now one of my favorite albums. We have both lost 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: our mothers and listening to the last three of her 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: album's tracks an extraordinary journey through patience, rage, and grief. 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: My favorite song on her new album is called Posing 39 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: in Bondage, and there's a line that I think about 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 2: a lot in it. It goes those who run from 41 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: pain those who have yet to. I felt intensely comforted 42 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: by her purview of loss, and the music is like 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: this awesome low fi, nimble, pop funk. It's just excellent. 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: And she's also written an extraordinary book that was on 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: the New York Times bestseller list called Crying in h Mart, 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: which is deft and hilarious and heartbreaking all at the 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: same time. I'm such a fan of hers, and I 48 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: feel like I owe her for showing me that there 49 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: is at least some of light at the end of 50 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: the tunnel of grief. What person, place, or experience has 51 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: most altered your life. 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: I feel like my entire life right now feels very 53 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: folded in half around this moment of losing my mom. 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: I'm a very different person after that. My whole life changed. 55 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, my whole family just dissolves when my mom 56 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: passed away. My dad moved to Thailand and we don't 57 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: speak anymore. And you know, this person that represented my 58 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: entire family is gone, but lives on in me in 59 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: this new way. 60 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 3: So I lost my MoMA a month and a half ago. 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so sorry. 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 3: But I've I've got to tell you. 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: I didn't know the stories behind your albums. And when 64 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: I went back and I listened with this new purview, 65 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: when I got listened to posing in bondage. 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: I was like, this is where I'm gonna get. 67 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 1: M so lovely to hear thank you so much. 68 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: The fact that your record do you believe? Like what 69 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: that means in. 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: Terms of like the word itself, and the idea that 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: there is celebration. There is celebration beyond death. There is 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: celebration in the relationship that develops with your parent after 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: they die that nobody really talks about, and that energetically 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: right now, even though I'm not there, the idea that 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to get to this place, because when I 76 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: read parts of Crying in h Mart, it was realizing 77 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: it was so familiar. Obviously the whole it's so familiar, 78 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: but the idea that there is a journey that even 79 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: though it feels like life stopped, it goes on and 80 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: you carry on and do you believe in me? Felt 81 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: like the emergence of life again, life after loss, real 82 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 2: life after death was so beautiful and so amazing, and 83 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: I'm so I'm so grateful because it's been so comforting 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: to listen to your music. 85 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. That means so much to me. 86 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: I feel like you've just put into words that I 87 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: am still wrapping my head around trying to explain, and 88 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: so it hits me so hard that I feel like 89 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: you've just gotten completely what I meant to say, and 90 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: it's the first time I'm hearing it back to me. 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: So I really appreciate that. 92 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: How great that it is meaningful? How great that what 93 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: you're doing as an artist, because surely work quite self 94 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: regarding as artists, you know we're in our process. But 95 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 2: to create something that not only touches people but genuinely 96 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: helps them, I think is very It's rare. Sorry, I've like, 97 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, we've been on for two minutes. 98 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: I've cried. 99 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: I've told you no, that's so moving, Like it's nuts. 100 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a rare, precious thing to get to 101 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: be vulnerable and impacted deeply by art. I mean, there's 102 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: no greater gift to get to share with you. So 103 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. 104 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: You're welcome. I think you're right. 105 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: Artists don't often know how they've impacted the people who 106 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: are who are metabolizing their aret. 107 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's why you do it too. I feel 108 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: like so much of the past couple of months has 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: just been the rush of like running to make force 110 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: people to like interact with your art, you know, so 111 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: you forget when it actually hits someone, and like why 112 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: you actually do it in the first place, because you're 113 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: so convinced sometimes that your art is hitting because of 114 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: like a marketing scheme or something. So it's nice to 115 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: be reminded that the actual thing is doing something much 116 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: more important, I think. I also, you know, there's a 117 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: line in that new song posing in Bondage and ASO 118 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: expanded up on in the book, where I say, you know, 119 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: when the world divides into two people, those who have 120 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: felt pain in those who have yet to. 121 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: I've wrote it down. I have it written right here. 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: Oh well, those who run from pain, those who have 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: yet too. 124 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like that's how I see the world now. 125 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: And it's endless, like frustrating when you know people who 126 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: haven't gone through this experience, and it feels like such 127 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: an unfair hand to be dealt. But I also found 128 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: I have a much deeper sense of compassion to other people. 129 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 1: It was almost like I was invited into this new club. 130 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be part of it, that's exactly, 131 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: that's exactly. Yeah. But I remember after my mom died, 132 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: I was sitting at a kitchen table with my mother 133 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: in law and her mother, my husband's grandmother, and they 134 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: were telling me about, you know, my mother in law's 135 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: brother died when she was in college. They were in 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: college together, and you know, she was telling me about 137 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: this experience, and then her mother was saying, you know, 138 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: I used to cry every day on the way to 139 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: work in the car and every day when I came home. 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: And now it was a strange feeling because I don't 141 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: know if they would have told me that story if 142 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: I hadn't sort of gone through this type of grief, 143 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: and I don't know if I would have felt it 144 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: so deeply, such an intense understanding, or even the way 145 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: that I feel towards you right now, that when you 146 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: just know that someone has gone through that you're understanding 147 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: and your feelings of closeness to a person really alters 148 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: after you go through something like that. And even though 149 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: it's really hard and it's not necessarily a club you 150 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: want to be a part of, there is some like 151 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: deeper connection to people. I think that you do start 152 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: to feel after you go through something like that that 153 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: is actually really beautiful one hundred. 154 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: It moves from being I was angry, it's so awful 155 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: to say it. 156 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 157 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: Then you then feel isolated in like you're this total pariah. 158 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: And then when you start talking to people who actually 159 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: have lost their moms and you realize that it's such 160 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: a particular club, it's such a particular journey. You are 161 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: very young to lose your mama. I mean, I'm one 162 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: hundred and forty, you know, I was. I'm older in it, 163 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: you know, but like it's still it was still too soon. 164 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: It was still too soon. What relationship, real or fictionalized, 165 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: defines love for you. 166 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: I have a really wonderful relationship with my husband, and 167 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm really lucky because we had dated for about a 168 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: year and a half when my mom got sick, and 169 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: when we found out her cancer was terminal, I called 170 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: him from a hospital in Korea and I was like, 171 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: if this is something that you are thinking of doing 172 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: in the next five years and you don't just do 173 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: it now, I don't think I'll ever be able to 174 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: forgive you. And so we threw together a wedding three 175 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: weeks before my mother passed away. 176 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 177 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: Because I was an only child, and you know, for me, 178 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, getting married was never really that important of 179 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: a thing. For me, but I knew it was a 180 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: tremendously important thing for my mom and that if I 181 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: ever got married and she wasn't there, it would just 182 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: destroy me. I could never enjoy myself at a wedding. 183 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: So we were really lucky that she was able to 184 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: go to the wedding, and she went into a coma 185 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: two weeks after we got married. We got married in 186 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: my parents' backyard. I talked about it in the book, 187 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: and I am so lucky that it worked out. I mean, 188 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: I told him, you know, well, just get divorced if 189 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, you know, like we'll be like 190 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: young hip divorces. And you know, we can refer to 191 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: our first marriages in this like very you know, mature way, 192 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, in our late twenties. And it just I 193 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: got so lucky because I think it worked out so 194 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: well because my family was able to fold him into 195 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: ours so seamlessly, and his family was able to embrace 196 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: me in such a deeper way because we got married, 197 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: and I think maybe subconsciously I could feel my nuclear 198 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: family apart and sort of needed to recreate that with someone. 199 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I just I never knew that 200 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: I could feel this way about someone, and I feel 201 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: like we are very perfectly matched in this way that 202 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, seemed realistically impossible, and so I can't think 203 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: of a I can't think of a greater love than our. 204 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: It's honestly, I truly feel that way. I'm very lucky 205 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: to have found that in my life. 206 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 207 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: Also, I think in a way, backing into these things 208 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: like it not happening in a traditional way, often it 209 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: destroys all of our previous ideas about it. The hearing 210 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: that you called him up and were like, listen, we 211 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: got to get married, or like or i'll hate you 212 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: or I hate you, just so you know, and the 213 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: fact that he could go this ritual is so important 214 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: to this person that I love. And not only that, 215 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: but like to her mother, I will do this as 216 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: an experience, but I love that the pressure is taken 217 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: off because it's like, yeah, and if we get divorced, 218 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: then maybe we'll get married again when we're like thirty. 219 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: Five, marriage right, exactly, like observing. 220 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: The traditional desire of your mum to see you married, 221 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: but getting rid of the expectation it doesn't have to 222 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: work out. It's okay, And then that defines love. 223 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he. I mean, I wrote that song Till 224 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: Death about him, and you know, I don't know if 225 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: I could have honestly been there for someone so selflessly 226 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: the way that he was there for me during that time, 227 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: because you're just I mean, you know, like when you 228 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: go through the grief of losing someone so monumental to 229 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: your life, you become. 230 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: So useless, totally and utterly useless. 231 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: For a year, I felt like I was relearning how 232 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: to walk, you know, relearning how to feed myself, relearning 233 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: how to you know, breathe, and to have someone just 234 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: stand by you because there's absolutely nothing they can do 235 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: but just wait it out with you and wait for 236 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: the person they love to come back. I was really 237 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: lucky that I had someone like that, you know, to 238 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: just wait it out with me. 239 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: I love I love that because you're right, it's standing 240 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: and waiting it out. And I felt that way when 241 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: when my mom was dying, was that all all we 242 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: could do was to be with her, was to hold 243 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: her hand and to be there and to love her. 244 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: And that's exactly what my boyfriend is doing for me now. 245 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: It's just standing. 246 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not. 247 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: Trying to fix it because it's unfixable. It's kind of 248 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: like it's like standing by a really beautiful, really old tree. 249 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: It feels he's not old. He's actually much younger than me, 250 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: but it's he's an old tree in my in my life. Yeah, 251 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: it's funny, that, isn't it, Particularly when I don't know 252 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: about you. But I am such a doer. I want 253 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: to fix stuff. I want to make you know, I'm 254 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: a mom. I want to fix stuff for my kids. 255 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 2: I want to I want to make it better. And 256 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: you simply cannot make this better. You just have to 257 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: stand and witness it with as much compassion as you can. 258 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: I guess totally. And there's just no skipping steps. I mean, 259 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: it is it's like a you know it is. It 260 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: is something that you just have to let take you 261 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: like a current, Like it's not it's not going to 262 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: wait for you, and when you think you've conquered it, 263 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: it's going to kick your ass in a totally new way. 264 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: I feel like. 265 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: It's so true, and that by the way, it is 266 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: process like we are being forced or we are forced 267 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: to process this. There's no getting around it. There's no 268 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: jumping to the end of the alphabet. You have to 269 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: go through every step, and that felt suffocating to begin 270 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: with for me in the early days of grief, but 271 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: now it's sort of more of a this is. 272 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: What we do. 273 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: We wake up every day and you meet your grief 274 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: and you don't know how it's going to take you, 275 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: but you go with the current of it. You allow 276 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: that because fighting it is actually so much worse. 277 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: Are you do you mind? If I ask her, are 278 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: you having a lot of dreams? 279 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: You know? 280 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: The strangest thing and that this is the part that 281 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: I've actually apart from her not being here, the thing 282 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: I've found hardest is that I have not dreamt. I've 283 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: been I've dreamt my whole life, like vividly, like write 284 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: them down dreams. I have not had a dream since 285 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: she died. And it's been it's been devastating. It's been 286 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: devastating to me that I haven't seen her in a dream. 287 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: It'll happen. It'll happen when you're not at this place 288 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: where you're like where are you? 289 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: You know, That's exactly it. 290 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Because my aunt, I'm pretty sure, was like, are you 291 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: dreaming about her? And I was like, oh my god, 292 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, like is that wrong? 293 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: Yeah? 294 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: And I think it must have been because I was 295 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: like searching for it. But I feel like they they'll 296 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: come like when you aren't thinking about wanting them so badly, 297 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: you know. 298 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: I wonder if they think it would make it worse, 299 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: if they're like, it would actually make it so much 300 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: worse if you do so. I don't want you to 301 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: wake up thinking that you've been with me. You need 302 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: to you need to have that little time path. 303 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: You know. It was so frustrating because you see them 304 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: and then it's like trying to call your way back 305 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: to sleep and you can never do it. And it's 306 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: a really interesting part though. I mean, it's so interesting 307 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: because you think that all of these things are very 308 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: unique to you, but every person that goes through it 309 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: goes through the same thing. Even when I got married, 310 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I did this weird thing. And 311 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: I heard so many stories about people who put weddings 312 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: together when their parents were sick. Because there's a natural 313 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, all human beings are kind of made up 314 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: of the same. 315 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: Stuff, exactly in the Venn diagram of our experiences, these 316 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: you know, matter made visible. There is so much that 317 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: is fundamental to all of us. We'll do the same 318 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: things in the same situations. I kind of love that 319 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: it feels tribal. Hmm, what is the quality that you 320 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: least like about yourself. 321 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly impatient in everything, and I can forget to 322 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: enjoy things sometimes. 323 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: Because you want the result like you, so you don't 324 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: pay attention to the journey of it as it were. 325 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, that's my issue with art making. And sometimes 326 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: it's the great thing. But I'm not one to dwell 327 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: in the process, and I envy my husband's like that. 328 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: He is all processing sometimes never gets anything done because 329 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: he can learn something, can really take his time and 330 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: have full understanding of something, whereas I often tend to 331 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: skip steps and not in relish the process of things. 332 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: But I also can be really impatient with people too, 333 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: and I wish I wasn't like that. 334 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: What triggers you about a person, like if they take 335 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: too long telling a story or what is it? 336 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's definitely yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that. And 337 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: also if I think I'm quick to cut people out 338 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: of my life or like snap to judgment in a 339 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: way I don't suffer fools, Well. 340 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: I know I'm exactly the same. 341 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it comes from my though, 342 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: because my mom raised me in this way where sometimes 343 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: my friends will confide in me about something, and you know, 344 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: my natural desire is to fix it. But I think 345 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: that when your friends confide in you, they're not asking 346 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: you to fix something. They just want to let it go, 347 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: you know, and they want someone to listen to them. 348 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: I want, I mean, I really want to get better 349 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: at like not being like, well, obviously you do this, 350 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: and then when they don't do that, you get naturally 351 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: kind of upset about it. And as I get older, 352 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm realizing like, they're going to do whatever they want 353 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: to do. You can be you can offer some sound advice, 354 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: but I think largely what your friend really wants you 355 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: to do is just to be quiet and to listen 356 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: and offer up support. And I think sometimes I get 357 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: confused and I'm like, well, clearly this is like these 358 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: are the steps you need to take. And then if 359 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: they don't take them, because they're human and they have 360 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: their own interests and desires, like I have gotten frustrated 361 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: in the past, and that's like totally unfair and uh, 362 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: something that I just need to work on. 363 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: I think, well, we all have stuff to work on. 364 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: But wait, so, because you write a lot about traditional 365 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: Korean cooking, and it feels to me that there is 366 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of process in that, in the process 367 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: of cooking, in the process of like shopping for the 368 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: ingredients and. 369 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 3: The whole thing. 370 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: So is that an area where you're not focused on 371 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: the result, you really are in the journey. Would you 372 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 2: say that there's a lot of flow when you're making food. 373 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: I do think so. I think it is like this 374 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: really tactle intuitive thing where you don't I'm not after 375 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: anything really when I'm doing I am like sort of 376 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: in the process of that, and I enjoy it and 377 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: I don't have to mentally like go after something in 378 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: the same way that I go after it in other 379 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: parts of my life. And I think that that's something 380 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: that I've really enjoyed about cooking, is because I'm such 381 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: analytical in my head person and there's none of that 382 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: really when you're cooking. It's all you know, very You're 383 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: very present and not thinking about the future really at all, 384 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: and your mind kind of unbusies itself in this beautiful way. 385 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. So it's like that's a that is 386 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 2: a meditation. I mean, that would be my description of 387 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: meditation or the meditative quality of absolutely. Yeah, that's so funny. 388 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: I think I read in something. I think it was 389 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: in the New Yorker in the excerpt from your book, 390 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: where you were like, somebody said, you just add enough 391 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: something until it tastes like mom's. 392 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, sesame oil, Are things enough? 393 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: Samele? Did it taste that your mom's? That was excellent? 394 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: Thank you? 395 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 396 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 397 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: There's this meal that my mom would make for me 398 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: every time I came home from college. She would marinate 399 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: this short rib it's called Colby, this sweet Korean short 400 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: rib with white rice, this white radish kimchi in this 401 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: really tart brine with sesame oil and red piper flakes 402 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: and then this radish kimchi just the way that my mom. 403 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: It just is like a feeling, you know, it like 404 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: sits like here. 405 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 3: Do you ever make that meal? Now? 406 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: Not often? Not often, because it doesn't taste as good 407 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: when you make it for yourself. Part of it is 408 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: that you don't have to do anything, and it's just 409 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: this person has gone through this whole process of like 410 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: marinating this thing two days before and buying all the 411 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: ingredients like weeks before. You arrive and just knowing that 412 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: there was so much thought that went into it. It 413 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: doesn't taste as good or mean as much when you 414 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: make it for yourself. 415 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: It's so true. But okay, hold on, I've got a plan. 416 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 2: So is your your is your husband? Is your husband 417 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: a good cooke? 418 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: No, he's adorable, he's hoorable. 419 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 2: Okay, forget him. Do you have a friend who you love, 420 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: who you could say, okay. 421 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: Can you pick a day? 422 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: Don't tell me what it's gonna be. 423 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: And I'm going to teach you and teach them how 424 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: to make it and then just have them, like on 425 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: your birthday, surprise you with this meal. And I think 426 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: that's a very good plan to see how I'm to 427 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 2: see how I'm trying to fix your You're not a problem, 428 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: Like you didn't have a problem. 429 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 4: But I'm going to find a way to fix you're 430 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 4: not a problem. 431 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: Where and when were you happiest? It's so funny because 432 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: it's such a childlike question to me, and when that 433 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: could be really be quantified by an actual moment, because 434 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: I know that happiness is like lots of different things 435 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: as we grow up, but like, if there is a 436 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: time that you can think of what would it be. 437 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: The thing that comes to mind first, I guess is 438 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: I think that when you're a child, there's just such 439 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: like unadulterated feeling in this way that you never get back. 440 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: I think I could certainly say moments with my husband 441 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: or when I feel the greatest joy. But I grew 442 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: up in Eugene, Oregon, which is a really beautiful place 443 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: to grow up, and my friends and I used to 444 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: visit this little hole in a fence where we would 445 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: go through and have access to the Willamette River, and 446 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: we would sort of jump off these rocks and let 447 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: the current take us down maybe a quarter mile before 448 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: frantically swimming to shore and then scrambling back up to 449 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: do it again. And that is maybe one of my 450 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: favorite memories of just riding my bike in the summertime 451 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: and not worrying about much and being in nature and 452 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: the beautiful Pacific Northwest. 453 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: God, that's amazing. That's a good image climbing through a 454 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 2: hole in a fence, jumping in a river and like 455 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: letting the current take you. 456 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: That's like childhood in general, you know. 457 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: But it is when there wasn't the same risk assess 458 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: month that certainly for me as a mother goes with 459 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: everything to do with my kid. I think our parents 460 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 2: were just so much freer with us. You know, I'd 461 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 2: freak out if I saw my son doing there, but 462 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 2: then I'd probably jump in and do it with him. 463 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: I don't think my parents were too excited about it, 464 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: but they frequently didn't know, I think, or they just 465 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: gave up. There are certainly worse things that you can do, 466 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: I guess as a kid. 467 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely. 468 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: But it's so funny how that taking that risk, that 469 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 2: the risk assessment risk metric, which doesn't exist as a child, 470 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: where you are just where you're free. You're free of 471 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 2: second guessing, and so happiness is innate in a way 472 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: because it's not clouded by worry or irritation or judgment 473 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: or anything other than that present moment. I wish I 474 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: could be a bit more like that now. 475 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 3: Me too. 476 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: I don't know when that changed for me, you know, 477 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: I think that when my mom passed away, my relationship 478 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: to death changed a lot, and similarly, my risk aversion 479 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: and increased in this strange way, because I think once 480 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 1: you're really close to how fragile life can be and 481 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 1: how real death is in a way. I found myself 482 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: really afraid in this new way. Like I used to love, 483 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, jumping off of high places into water, and 484 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: now after that's happened, I don't know if it's necessarily 485 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: because of that, or I also just got older and 486 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: became more afraid. I don't know if I would do 487 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: it anymore, or like even if I'm on a plane 488 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: and there's turbulence, that's something that I never was worried about, 489 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: and now I'm just certain I'm gonna die all the time. 490 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 3: I'm certain I'm gonna die. Oh my god. It's so 491 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 3: it's so funny because like it is certain that we're 492 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 3: going to die. 493 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, say it like that, Like I'm certain we're going 494 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: to die in this moment. Losing someone you love so much, 495 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 2: it does. It makes you hang on to life life 496 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: really tightly. But there must be a version of that 497 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: where you can love life with looser hands. 498 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 3: You know that. 499 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: Actually it's like no, no, no, just just be here, 500 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 2: just be here now and be in this life because yeah, 501 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: it is over way quicker than it's. One thing my 502 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: mom said it right as she was dying, was you know, 503 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: even if I had another another ten years, she was 504 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: eighty four. If I had another ten years, it still 505 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been enough. Like it goes by in an instant, 506 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: it's so quick. 507 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 3: Just love it. Maybe remembering the immediacy. It's so funny. 508 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to be thinking of that. If you crawling 509 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: through a hole on the fence and jumping and moving 510 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: water like it's so good, bike skidding and crawling through holes. 511 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: I think that was pretty much my whole childhood as well. 512 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I wish that there was more of that 513 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: type of play incorporated into adult life, but I do 514 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: think that that is fair. I mean, I think I 515 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: lived my life. I'm just so aware of how limited 516 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: my time is in a way that I've accomplished so 517 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: much more in the past seven years because I think 518 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: I have so much to say before it's over. I 519 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: got married, I became successful as an artist for the 520 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: first time, I developed this incredible career, and really great 521 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: stuff happened also, you know, and it felt almost like 522 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: she was looking out for me in this way, and 523 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: I feel like it really lit a fire in me 524 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: to make those things happen in a way that I 525 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: didn't have before. And that is a more positive way 526 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: of looking at this these things. 527 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the rare gifts that come with 528 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: things that are hard that we don't incorporate into the 529 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: narrative often because we're too busy. We're too busy saying 530 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: that they're hard. You know, there's you know that quote 531 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 2: that Helen Keller. We only ever really say half of it, 532 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: where one door closes, another one opens. But what she 533 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 2: said was where and one door closes and another one opens. 534 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing, we're so busy looking at the door that closed, 535 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: we forget to see the one that has opened. That's 536 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 2: actually the whole thing that she said. And I feel like, 537 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: since losing my mar I want to look at the 538 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 2: door that is opened. I felt every second of that 539 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: door closing, and I really just so firmly want to 540 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: look at the opening and to be in this moment because, 541 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: you know, to carry on, maybe to carry on the analogy. 542 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: The door closes really, really fucking quickly. Oh my gosh, 543 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: it has been such a pleasure. I'd say I'm sorry 544 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: about crying at the beginning of warranty, but I'm actually 545 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: not sorry that all. I'm so grateful to have connected 546 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: with the art that you're making. It's brilliant and thanks 547 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: for being here. 548 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. You're so welcome. 549 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: Michelle's new record, Jubilee, is out now and I strongly 550 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: suggest that you have a listen and dive into the 551 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: world that she creates and her book Crying in h 552 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: Mark has just had the film right sport, so you 553 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: should read the. 554 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: Book before you see the movie. But I'm sure the 555 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: movie will be awesome. 556 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, 557 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: supervising producer Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. 558 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: Original music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by 559 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: Aaron Kaufman. 560 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 3: Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. 561 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Jim Nicolay, Will Pearson, Addison, O'Day, Lisa 562 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: Castella and Aniice Oppenheim, a WKPR, Dala Pescador, Kate Driver 563 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support, Henry Driver.