Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison. With me
Speaker 1: today is Chris, and today we'll be talking about something
Speaker 1: that I was wanting to do for Pride Month but
Speaker 1: time kind of got away from me. But we'll be
Speaker 1: talking with Noah Adams, who does research into the kind
Speaker 1: of crossover between autism and being trans. I know we've
Speaker 1: we've briefly mentioned some like rhetoric around this on our
Speaker 1: War on Trans People series episodes, and Noah was kind
Speaker 1: enough to reach out to me to be willing to
Speaker 1: discuss this more in depth. Of greetings, Hello, thank you.
Speaker 1: It's it's always Pride Months somewhere in the summer. So
Speaker 1: that's true. That's true. Um So, I guess let's I
Speaker 1: first want to kind of hear how you how you
Speaker 1: personally kind of got into this field of research, and
Speaker 1: then maybe kind of clarify what what exactly your your
Speaker 1: field of research is? Sure, UM, well, I guess where
Speaker 1: do you start? I mean, I'm I'm a trans person
Speaker 1: and I'm also autistic, so it's sort of a natural
Speaker 1: crossover for me. UM. I got started in trans research,
Speaker 1: uh or transactivism doing suicidality work. UM in such a
Speaker 1: long time ago now, but in um, I think two
Speaker 1: thousand and six, myself and my best friend cycled across
Speaker 1: Canada to bring awareness for trans suicidality. Um and in
Speaker 1: memorandum of a person, a friend who who committed suicide. UM.
Speaker 1: So you know, we went to a lot of different
Speaker 1: communities in Canada, including Saskatoon, did talks about you know,
Speaker 1: did talks with local trans communities about suicide ality prevention stuff.
Speaker 1: Uh and met a lot of great people. Um. And
Speaker 1: then I came back and I did my Master of
Speaker 1: Social work also on trans suicide new research, kind of
Speaker 1: looking at how there's a lot of different research out
Speaker 1: there and who knows, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different rates that are given all high and and where
Speaker 1: are we supposed to you know, fall on that? Um.
Speaker 1: And then I finished that and I was kind of
Speaker 1: tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, speaking a little bit,
Speaker 1: a little bit exhausting, um and kind of have a
Speaker 1: I have a much darker sense of humor than I
Speaker 1: used to. Yeah. UM. So a friend I was kind
Speaker 1: of drifting into autism work and a friend who uh
Speaker 1: Jake Pine, who who's a professor now at your university, UM,
Speaker 1: suggested I kind of move into that area. And and
Speaker 1: here I am so with the kind of crossover between
Speaker 1: being trends and have and and uh, I guess I'm
Speaker 1: not the best I don't I don't know, I consciously
Speaker 1: don't kind of know all the what the most appropriate
Speaker 1: languages would you say that you would you prefer to
Speaker 1: say that you like have autism or you are artistic? Um?
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's pretty universal in the autism
Speaker 1: community to uh talk about identity first language. So yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: autism kind of leads and and that's yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess i'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say
Speaker 1: person with autism. Yeah. Yeah, So with that, how have
Speaker 1: you kind of what what initially got you to you know,
Speaker 1: because we see a lot of propaganda and stuff trying
Speaker 1: to almost like take away people's agency around both being
Speaker 1: trans and and and um and with and how and
Speaker 1: being autistic. Right, there's a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: propaganda there, especially from the Turfs in the UK really
Speaker 1: started this out and really accelerated on this point. Um.
Speaker 1: And I mean we're not there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: basically autism exterminationist groups out there. Um, A whole whole
Speaker 1: bunch of other kind of problems around this. How when
Speaker 1: when these kind of crossovers start happening, where did you
Speaker 1: kind of what what kind of prompted you to see
Speaker 1: this and be like, Hey, here's this thing that needs
Speaker 1: to be researched, and here's how I'm going to go
Speaker 1: about it. Because you see a lot of people talk
Speaker 1: about this thing, but it's always generally to like attack
Speaker 1: trans people, um or attack autistic people. I mean, you
Speaker 1: know there's a lot there. I mean I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, my sort of seedling of interest is is
Speaker 1: I just really don't like injustice. I really. I mean
Speaker 1: that's such a broad thing to say, but I really,
Speaker 1: you know, injustice against people for the sake of who
Speaker 1: they are really just kind of pisces me off. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, when you pick a research topic,
Speaker 1: you kind of pick something that you're willing to spend
Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours in a library or you know, um,
Speaker 1: a virtual library, what have you just kind of plowing
Speaker 1: away at it. And and it seemed like I was
Speaker 1: piste off enough at the injustice of the way autistic people,
Speaker 1: in the way trans people are treated, and especially the
Speaker 1: way I think I think we're ignored by both the theaters,
Speaker 1: by both you know, for for TERFs and trans exclusionary folks. UM.
Speaker 1: I really feel like we're an easy target where you know,
Speaker 1: autistic people or or for that matter, people with devoltmental
Speaker 1: disabilities or people with with any kind of UM and
Speaker 1: I'm using having finger pots on this, any kind of
Speaker 1: impairment based disability, feel like a soft target for people
Speaker 1: that just want to attack trans folks, right like, because
Speaker 1: they're they're a group that are so it's incomprehensible to
Speaker 1: them that we would be able to speak for ourselves.
Speaker 1: So so there, you know, I mean, I don't even
Speaker 1: think that they I don't think they care about autistic people,
Speaker 1: but I don't think they even it even occurs to
Speaker 1: them that autistic people might have and trans autistic folks
Speaker 1: might have something to say for themselves. So what's kind
Speaker 1: of the scope of your research been the for however,
Speaker 1: however long you've been working on this for it's it's
Speaker 1: for a PhD program, correct, Yeah, Well, I started doing
Speaker 1: I wrote a book on trans authentic folks that's sort
Speaker 1: of a theory that interviewers with folks UM, and you know,
Speaker 1: I mean I just asked them like about their lives
Speaker 1: and what it was like to be trans and what
Speaker 1: it was like to be autistic, and what it's like to,
Speaker 1: you know, try to transition as an autistic person, and
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff came out of that around you know,
Speaker 1: how difficult it can be for folks that are their
Speaker 1: both to access trans healthcare and to sort of navigate
Speaker 1: their way in the world. Um, and this is for
Speaker 1: my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth of that.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic community group
Speaker 1: sort of grassroots group formations are are forming and and
Speaker 1: what their goals are. How do you, like, how do
Speaker 1: you go about like ethic research into this topic, because
Speaker 1: definitely the like, you know, there's a certain way to like,
Speaker 1: there's a certain way to be like I'm researching autism
Speaker 1: and trans people to be like, huh, that's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a side I right, because because of how
Speaker 1: some of because of how like the turf groups talk
Speaker 1: about it. Obviously you're treads and autistic and that's completely different.
Speaker 1: But like, definitely, yeah, I was definitely wondering, like is
Speaker 1: there like how what what types of like ways does
Speaker 1: ethical research go about so that you actually understand people
Speaker 1: when you're when you're talking to them. It's not it's
Speaker 1: not about like here we need to we need to
Speaker 1: like solve these problems, because they're not problems to be solved,
Speaker 1: But it's it's research into living people who are like
Speaker 1: having lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great question. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm sort of starting to through that myself right now
Speaker 1: because I'm just you know, working through my ethical research proposal. Um,
Speaker 1: but I think you just have to be really honest
Speaker 1: and open and and really write all this stuff out,
Speaker 1: like how are you going to contact people and what
Speaker 1: are you going to ak to them about and showing
Speaker 1: other people what you're doing and being very open to
Speaker 1: that process, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, In what
Speaker 1: types of ways do you see the crossover kind of
Speaker 1: between ableism and transphobia and like what how how have
Speaker 1: you seen that crossover be used to kind of hurt
Speaker 1: both trans people and people who are artistic and people
Speaker 1: who are both, you know, I mean I think the
Speaker 1: most explicit way has been I you know, I see
Speaker 1: a lot of articles by the Guardian or the Daily Mail,
Speaker 1: you know, bring up the specter of autistic people and
Speaker 1: being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, h among the
Speaker 1: trans population going to gender clinics. And and there isn't
Speaker 1: ever any explanation after you say that that the scaremongering
Speaker 1: is just saying there's artistic people supposedly overrepresented among trans folks.
Speaker 1: Oh no, but as if it doesn't need saying, it's
Speaker 1: it's assumed that that's that's appalling, you know, but I
Speaker 1: like a little bit more explanation. There's there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot said by how they how there's how they frame
Speaker 1: it and how they and like what they don't say,
Speaker 1: um really fright, Like the it's all framed as if
Speaker 1: this is, you know, something that everyone recognizes as like
Speaker 1: a problem, um, and countering that is really challenging because
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, because like again you're you're doing research
Speaker 1: into this in this into this specific crossover, and what
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff have you kind of learned throughout your
Speaker 1: research about about this. I mean it's interesting, like it's
Speaker 1: that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, like
Speaker 1: over the last I bet yeah, I'd say over the
Speaker 1: last five years, the literature on the crossover of of
Speaker 1: autism and trans folks has like skyrocketing. Like in I
Speaker 1: always say, in to twenty alone, something like a hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty articles were published, whereas two years before that,
Speaker 1: maybe twenty UM and and the vast majority of them
Speaker 1: are mentioning the um the co occurrence uh in passing.
Speaker 1: So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things
Speaker 1: where autism and trans identity co occurs. So thus you
Speaker 1: should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because
Speaker 1: they might be autistic. Yeah, That's the only thing I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was like people medical gatekeeping aspect,
Speaker 1: and like you especially see you see this like turfs.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of like infantilization with the
Speaker 1: turf Frederick around this, and then that kind of leads
Speaker 1: to this type of medical gatekeeping. Yeah, I just think,
Speaker 1: you know, I see, I see this. I saw this
Speaker 1: in a book with the interviews I did, and I
Speaker 1: see it in so many other places and especially conversation
Speaker 1: with folks. Is that, you know, the problem seems to
Speaker 1: be if you tell an unexpected narrative to the person
Speaker 1: in charge of gate keeping you for transgender healthcare, you're
Speaker 1: going to make them nervous. And if you make them nervous.
Speaker 1: They're they're not necessarily going to say no, but they're
Speaker 1: gonna say to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see,
Speaker 1: and for for autistic folks, waiting and seeing might mean forever, right,
Speaker 1: Like I talked to folks in the book, UH that,
Speaker 1: you know, without without mentioning actual cities, because of the
Speaker 1: you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's
Speaker 1: let's you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans, uh,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't able to access trans healthcare and New
Speaker 1: Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic,
Speaker 1: And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows,
Speaker 1: you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans healthcare,
Speaker 1: which shows a level of capacity that they're implying in
Speaker 1: the context of trans healthcare and New Orleans that he's
Speaker 1: not capable of. But you know, he can uproot his
Speaker 1: whole life, move across the country himself, up find a doctor.
Speaker 1: And then he talked to the doctor in an informed
Speaker 1: health clinic in Chicago, and and they were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we knew that you were from this city, and we
Speaker 1: do that you were autistic before you told us, because
Speaker 1: there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the
Speaker 1: migration to Chicago from this particular city because they can't
Speaker 1: get health care. I mean, like, you know, I'm also
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, like kids trying to come out
Speaker 1: as trans, um who have autism or have any other
Speaker 1: kind of you know, quote unquote developmental disability UM, and
Speaker 1: like just all of the ways that that can be
Speaker 1: used to gaslight kids about their gender identity. UM. I
Speaker 1: know in your book you mentioned stuff around like self
Speaker 1: discovery and coming out and issues with family. UM, what
Speaker 1: kind of what kind of things have you heard about
Speaker 1: that in terms of how how kids that who the
Speaker 1: kids are figuring figuring out gender stuff while also having
Speaker 1: this whole other thing that people use to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, add on to their experience. I mean, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I noticed, especially in
Speaker 1: you know, sort of trans artistic autobiographies, is that, you know,
Speaker 1: gender doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense do
Speaker 1: a lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense to do. But I mean I have I have
Speaker 1: something going on in my brain. I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is. I don't think it's autism. But yeah, gender's
Speaker 1: never never made sense to me either, And I think,
Speaker 1: like where you for autistic people, especially where you come
Speaker 1: across things that don't make an inherent sort of sense,
Speaker 1: it's difficult to accept them. Like so much in the
Speaker 1: world doesn't make inherent sense. But that could be a
Speaker 1: real sticking point for autistic folks. So, you know, what
Speaker 1: I see, what I seem to see a lot of
Speaker 1: is that by the time folks come out of well,
Speaker 1: first of all, it seems like although you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want to quote any particular kind of research on it,
Speaker 1: because I think the jury is still out, but it
Speaker 1: seems like autistic people are more likely to identify as
Speaker 1: non binary um or to just not identify with gender
Speaker 1: at all. Um. And it does seem like by the
Speaker 1: time folks come out as trans, whatever you know, permutation
Speaker 1: of that there is for them, um, They've they've tried
Speaker 1: just about every other identity they can, you know, they
Speaker 1: can try out like especially you know, I mean, we're
Speaker 1: aware that there are social stigmas and and and social
Speaker 1: expectations around gender. So I think for for a lot
Speaker 1: of autistic folks, they're going to try to fit that
Speaker 1: even though it doesn't make sense to them. They're going
Speaker 1: to try to fit within that because they know it exists,
Speaker 1: and that by the time they come out as as trans,
Speaker 1: like or male or female or what have you, like,
Speaker 1: we pretty well know there makes any kind of sense. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I mean they think that there's a lot of misconceptions
Speaker 1: people have about about me both being trans and pig autistic.
Speaker 1: Let let a load being both of Is there any
Speaker 1: like yeah, like, what's most the common misconceptions about this
Speaker 1: only kind of on like a broader level. Would you
Speaker 1: like to dispel? Um? Sure, Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people get told, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: you can't be autistic because you're too you're too articulate,
Speaker 1: or you know, you have too much of an opinion.
Speaker 1: Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves or their
Speaker 1: own life. And that's I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's
Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah, absolutely, Um, And then you know,
Speaker 1: trans folks get told it's not uncommon to get told, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you can't be autistic because you're trans, so you're sort
Speaker 1: of in this this no no person's land. That's such
Speaker 1: a it's such like an ontological attack on someone's being
Speaker 1: it's so really is you know, like that's you know,
Speaker 1: like you know already like again just being solely trans
Speaker 1: or autistic, you at some of that and then together
Speaker 1: it's like it's just attacking every kind of part of
Speaker 1: you that you're trying to figure out. Um, well, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort
Speaker 1: of the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans
Speaker 1: people into whatever you want to be convenient to you.
Speaker 1: What kinds of stuff do you think people should know
Speaker 1: about this to help kind of either you know, to
Speaker 1: help either like counter some of the rhetoric around this,
Speaker 1: or just to gain better like personal understanding, right if
Speaker 1: they have if they have you know, people in their
Speaker 1: lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that
Speaker 1: they're that they're trans and they're autistic. Like how what
Speaker 1: what kinds of what kinds of stuff would you like
Speaker 1: people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess I remember a story someone from the book
Speaker 1: told me about how you know he was. He had
Speaker 1: his best friend is is trans and autistic as well
Speaker 1: and has a number of physical disabilities, and he was
Speaker 1: kind of he's sort of the caretaker for him. Um,
Speaker 1: and he was kind of talking to him about how, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm trans, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if I should, you know, if I should use that
Speaker 1: label or like, you know, maybe it's not the right
Speaker 1: thing to do or it's bad or something. And his
Speaker 1: friend was like, well, you know you're not You're not
Speaker 1: a hormone and vampire. Like you're not gonna like suck
Speaker 1: the hormones onto somebody else and and hurt them by
Speaker 1: taking away their testosterone. Like, oh, I wish is I
Speaker 1: worked like that? Um, you know I would, I would
Speaker 1: be a trans vampire. Um, this is about you and
Speaker 1: what makes you comfortable. It's not about like you're not
Speaker 1: hurting anybody else being yourself. And I think you know,
Speaker 1: autistic folks like anybody else you know, worry about I mean,
Speaker 1: we're we're just as susceptible to the attacks on trans
Speaker 1: folks as anybody else, right, Like, and you worry that, like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't the right thing to do, but like
Speaker 1: what are you hurting by by exploring it? That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you have to be trans, or you have to transition,
Speaker 1: or or you can't change your mind like but it doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't hurt anybody, even though you to just be
Speaker 1: open to it, even just like temporarily trying out different
Speaker 1: names or pronouns. Right, it can can be like such
Speaker 1: a big deal, um, and it can be very incidental.
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't it doesn't need to be so cataclysmic. Right,
Speaker 1: That's something that you can experiment with and it's fine, right.
Speaker 1: You never yeah, you don't lock yourself into anything. Um,
Speaker 1: but of course you know what it's about, your personal
Speaker 1: sense of identity. Of course it feels much bigger. Well,
Speaker 1: I think I think people worry about what other folks.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, people worry about what other folks will
Speaker 1: think and mean for them. Um, I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it seems like a strange comparison to make, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. If you've seen Crimes of the Future, I've
Speaker 1: not yet. Oh, it's it's really good. It's it's the
Speaker 1: most recent David Cronbrck movie, and they're just great. I'm
Speaker 1: going to give away the end of the movie, so
Speaker 1: spoil boilers. I know, we're giving this into a movie podcast.
Speaker 1: What I've always wanted. There's this great scene at the
Speaker 1: end though, where Vigo Mortison is like in this he
Speaker 1: has this special like Verry David Croninbergie bone chair that
Speaker 1: he has to like be in to move him around
Speaker 1: what he's eating, and he finally is convinced by his
Speaker 1: partner to like try the plastic chocolate bar that's you know,
Speaker 1: supposed to be like it's a whole digestive thing. I
Speaker 1: will get into it. But you know, there's this moment
Speaker 1: of realization, like he's been avoiding this for the whole
Speaker 1: the whole movie, and he like tries it and he's
Speaker 1: eating it, and suddenly there's this this realization moment in
Speaker 1: his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to
Speaker 1: be so difficult, Like, I society doesn't want me to
Speaker 1: do this, and it's it's seen as a crime and
Speaker 1: it's seen as as terrible, but actually when you crossed
Speaker 1: that rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, especially if you if you're even even if
Speaker 1: you're not like coming out to everybody you know at
Speaker 1: the same time, right, you can start you start off
Speaker 1: with a smell group of people that you know are
Speaker 1: gonna be with you, and you try it out with them,
Speaker 1: and if you like it, then great, that's that's a
Speaker 1: really good sign if you if you start it and
Speaker 1: you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you don't
Speaker 1: need to commit. Like it's not a thing, right. That
Speaker 1: rubicon can feel so big sometimes Yeah, and it feels
Speaker 1: like you're you're jumping across a giant like the Grand Canyon.
Speaker 1: But really, oh it is is you're stepping across, you know,
Speaker 1: a small stream and you can step right back across
Speaker 1: there if you didn't like it. Yeah, So what kind
Speaker 1: of things we like to see happen around like the
Speaker 1: medical gatekeeping so that it's less fucked up? I mean,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of I'm actually act a conference
Speaker 1: in Belgium right now for trans health sort of medical
Speaker 1: trans health stuff. Um, and you know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think one of the things I keep coming back to
Speaker 1: is you don't need to treat autistic people in the
Speaker 1: realm of trans healthcare any differently than you do anywhere else,
Speaker 1: like anyone else, Like especially in the gate keeper model,
Speaker 1: we have like either you have the capacity to consent
Speaker 1: or you don't like that that test is And I
Speaker 1: have lots of thoughts about that if that's for another day.
Speaker 1: But you know, whether you meet those tests or not,
Speaker 1: it should not be any different just because you're autistic.
Speaker 1: UM would like to, I guess talk just briefly about
Speaker 1: your book. Um, you know, what's it like? What? What
Speaker 1: what the scope of it is? Where people can find it?
Speaker 1: UM trans an Autistic Stories from Our Stories from Life
Speaker 1: at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. UM. It was
Speaker 1: out in I think people can find it on Amazon
Speaker 1: or wherever you buy books. I'm or Pala's bookstore over
Speaker 1: there in Portland has it. Um. Yeah, it's it's a
Speaker 1: series of interviews with folks who are trans and artistic.
Speaker 1: I sat down with folks and and asked them about
Speaker 1: their life and and what's going on and what that
Speaker 1: looks like. And then I sort of, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to transcribe that into into a text, into a
Speaker 1: narrative form and put that in a book. And here
Speaker 1: we are. That sounds wonderful. UM. I see the I
Speaker 1: see that. I see the listing on Amazon dot c
Speaker 1: A for our for our Canadian Canadian folks as well. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking about this. UM. Is
Speaker 1: there any other kind of random thoughts that you would
Speaker 1: like to you would like to mention that we haven't
Speaker 1: that we haven't brought up yet. Sure. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I always like to plug groups Walsh's work which looks
Speaker 1: at you know, they do a lot of work in
Speaker 1: trans autistic stuff too, and they kind of look at
Speaker 1: why more people may be trans an autistic, uh And
Speaker 1: one of the things, as they've they've found is that
Speaker 1: it may be that uh autistic people are both less
Speaker 1: capable of hiding the fact that they're trans and less
Speaker 1: less capable of caring um or caring about hiding it.
Speaker 1: So it may be more obvious that there is a concurrence.
Speaker 1: They're not an actual overage of a concurrence, let's say, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, that means that was definitely in the
Speaker 1: back of my mind. Yeah, huh. Well again, no, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming to talk with us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: can I can I plug a couple of things? Is
Speaker 1: that plug? Plug away? This is still still your time, okay. Um.
Speaker 1: So I'm leading a refugee sponsorship group for a group
Speaker 1: of five for a trans guy from the Middle East,
Speaker 1: and we're raising funds through the Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto.
Speaker 1: We got to raise us amount before we can put
Speaker 1: the application in and I can give you that link,
Speaker 1: but it's at Canada helps dot org and the name
Speaker 1: is trans Proud, trans Proud trans and proud you are ill.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of long. I will I will put
Speaker 1: if you send me that link, I will put it
Speaker 1: in the description for people to click on. Awesome, and
Speaker 1: you can find me at no atoms on Twitter because
Speaker 1: I got in early enough to get my name. Yeah wow,
Speaker 1: March two thousand nine, just right right on the cusp
Speaker 1: right well again, Thank you so much for reaching out
Speaker 1: to talk about this intersection. Hopefully if anyone was interested
Speaker 1: what we were talking about, UM, please check out Noah's book,
Speaker 1: um to just read a whole bunch of stories from
Speaker 1: from from people about this. Yeah awesome, Thank you, Yeah
Speaker 1: all right everyone that does it for us today. See
Speaker 1: on the other side. It could happen here as a
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media and more podcasts from cool
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com,
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,
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Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at
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