WEBVTT - Trans and Autistic: Interview with Noah Adams 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.080 Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison. With me 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:12.560 today is Chris, and today we'll be talking about something 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.200 that I was wanting to do for Pride Month but 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.360 time kind of got away from me. But we'll be 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.360 talking with Noah Adams, who does research into the kind 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:26.920 of crossover between autism and being trans. I know we've 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.880 we've briefly mentioned some like rhetoric around this on our 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.159 War on Trans People series episodes, and Noah was kind 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:36.080 enough to reach out to me to be willing to 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.920 discuss this more in depth. Of greetings, Hello, thank you. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.279 It's it's always Pride Months somewhere in the summer. So 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.519 that's true. That's true. Um So, I guess let's I 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.320 first want to kind of hear how you how you 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.960 personally kind of got into this field of research, and 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.760 then maybe kind of clarify what what exactly your your 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:02.520 field of research is? Sure, UM, well, I guess where 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.800 do you start? I mean, I'm I'm a trans person 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.440 and I'm also autistic, so it's sort of a natural 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.399 crossover for me. UM. I got started in trans research, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:22.080 uh or transactivism doing suicidality work. UM in such a 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.680 long time ago now, but in um, I think two 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.120 thousand and six, myself and my best friend cycled across 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.440 Canada to bring awareness for trans suicidality. Um and in 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:39.119 memorandum of a person, a friend who who committed suicide. UM. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:40.920 So you know, we went to a lot of different 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:45.800 communities in Canada, including Saskatoon, did talks about you know, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.520 did talks with local trans communities about suicide ality prevention stuff. 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.000 Uh and met a lot of great people. Um. And 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.360 then I came back and I did my Master of 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.360 Social work also on trans suicide new research, kind of 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.640 looking at how there's a lot of different research out 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.160 there and who knows, you know, there's a lot of 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.800 different rates that are given all high and and where 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.280 are we supposed to you know, fall on that? Um. 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.160 And then I finished that and I was kind of 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:19.880 tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, speaking a little bit, 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.480 a little bit exhausting, um and kind of have a 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.840 I have a much darker sense of humor than I 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:30.919 used to. Yeah. UM. So a friend I was kind 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.840 of drifting into autism work and a friend who uh 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:41.320 Jake Pine, who who's a professor now at your university, UM, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.880 suggested I kind of move into that area. And and 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.400 here I am so with the kind of crossover between 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.600 being trends and have and and uh, I guess I'm 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.000 not the best I don't I don't know, I consciously 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.880 don't kind of know all the what the most appropriate 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.240 languages would you say that you would you prefer to 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:05.880 say that you like have autism or you are artistic? Um? 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.400 I mean I think it's pretty universal in the autism 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.160 community to uh talk about identity first language. So yeah, exactly, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.360 autism kind of leads and and that's yeah, I mean, 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.200 I guess i'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:27.080 person with autism. Yeah. Yeah, So with that, how have 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.920 you kind of what what initially got you to you know, 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.440 because we see a lot of propaganda and stuff trying 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.720 to almost like take away people's agency around both being 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:43.200 trans and and and um and with and how and 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.960 being autistic. Right, there's a lot of a lot of 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.360 propaganda there, especially from the Turfs in the UK really 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.520 started this out and really accelerated on this point. Um. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.640 And I mean we're not there's a whole bunch of 0:03:55.680 --> 0:04:00.480 basically autism exterminationist groups out there. Um, A whole whole 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:05.160 bunch of other kind of problems around this. How when 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.840 when these kind of crossovers start happening, where did you 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.040 kind of what what kind of prompted you to see 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.040 this and be like, Hey, here's this thing that needs 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.440 to be researched, and here's how I'm going to go 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.800 about it. Because you see a lot of people talk 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.760 about this thing, but it's always generally to like attack 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:26.000 trans people, um or attack autistic people. I mean, you 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.159 know there's a lot there. I mean I would say, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.880 you know, my sort of seedling of interest is is 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.720 I just really don't like injustice. I really. I mean 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.679 that's such a broad thing to say, but I really, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.800 you know, injustice against people for the sake of who 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.039 they are really just kind of pisces me off. Um. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.520 And you know, I mean, when you pick a research topic, 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.040 you kind of pick something that you're willing to spend 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.360 hours and hours and hours in a library or you know, um, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.440 a virtual library, what have you just kind of plowing 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.200 away at it. And and it seemed like I was 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.039 piste off enough at the injustice of the way autistic people, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.359 in the way trans people are treated, and especially the 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.159 way I think I think we're ignored by both the theaters, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:13.040 by both you know, for for TERFs and trans exclusionary folks. UM. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.120 I really feel like we're an easy target where you know, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.280 autistic people or or for that matter, people with devoltmental 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.400 disabilities or people with with any kind of UM and 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.919 I'm using having finger pots on this, any kind of 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:31.000 impairment based disability, feel like a soft target for people 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.920 that just want to attack trans folks, right like, because 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.640 they're they're a group that are so it's incomprehensible to 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.839 them that we would be able to speak for ourselves. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.520 So so there, you know, I mean, I don't even 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:50.400 think that they I don't think they care about autistic people, 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.800 but I don't think they even it even occurs to 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.719 them that autistic people might have and trans autistic folks 0:05:55.760 --> 0:06:00.400 might have something to say for themselves. So what's kind 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.479 of the scope of your research been the for however, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.120 however long you've been working on this for it's it's 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.480 for a PhD program, correct, Yeah, Well, I started doing 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.240 I wrote a book on trans authentic folks that's sort 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:21.599 of a theory that interviewers with folks UM, and you know, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.200 I mean I just asked them like about their lives 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:25.839 and what it was like to be trans and what 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:27.719 it was like to be autistic, and what it's like to, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.279 you know, try to transition as an autistic person, and 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.640 a lot of stuff came out of that around you know, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.360 how difficult it can be for folks that are their 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.160 both to access trans healthcare and to sort of navigate 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.279 their way in the world. Um, and this is for 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.520 my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth of that. 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:49.320 So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic community group 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.520 sort of grassroots group formations are are forming and and 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:58.919 what their goals are. How do you, like, how do 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.479 you go about like ethic research into this topic, because 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.600 definitely the like, you know, there's a certain way to like, 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.440 there's a certain way to be like I'm researching autism 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.800 and trans people to be like, huh, that's a little 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:12.520 bit of a side I right, because because of how 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.600 some of because of how like the turf groups talk 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.880 about it. Obviously you're treads and autistic and that's completely different. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.000 But like, definitely, yeah, I was definitely wondering, like is 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.880 there like how what what types of like ways does 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.440 ethical research go about so that you actually understand people 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.720 when you're when you're talking to them. It's not it's 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.440 not about like here we need to we need to 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.720 like solve these problems, because they're not problems to be solved, 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.720 But it's it's research into living people who are like 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:44.200 having lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great question. Um. 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.720 I'm sort of starting to through that myself right now 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:52.000 because I'm just you know, working through my ethical research proposal. Um, 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.960 but I think you just have to be really honest 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.760 and open and and really write all this stuff out, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:07:59.480 like how are you going to contact people and what 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.720 are you going to ak to them about and showing 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.520 other people what you're doing and being very open to 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:18.560 that process, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, In what 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.000 types of ways do you see the crossover kind of 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.600 between ableism and transphobia and like what how how have 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.840 you seen that crossover be used to kind of hurt 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.480 both trans people and people who are artistic and people 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.400 who are both, you know, I mean I think the 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.720 most explicit way has been I you know, I see 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.040 a lot of articles by the Guardian or the Daily Mail, 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.240 you know, bring up the specter of autistic people and 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:51.800 being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, h among the 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.080 trans population going to gender clinics. And and there isn't 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.000 ever any explanation after you say that that the scaremongering 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:04.640 is just saying there's artistic people supposedly overrepresented among trans folks. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:09.080 Oh no, but as if it doesn't need saying, it's 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.599 it's assumed that that's that's appalling, you know, but I 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.160 like a little bit more explanation. There's there's there's a 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.680 lot said by how they how there's how they frame 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.000 it and how they and like what they don't say, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.400 um really fright, Like the it's all framed as if 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.320 this is, you know, something that everyone recognizes as like 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:33.160 a problem, um, and countering that is really challenging because 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.800 it is. Yeah, because like again you're you're doing research 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.920 into this in this into this specific crossover, and what 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.199 kinds of stuff have you kind of learned throughout your 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.680 research about about this. I mean it's interesting, like it's 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.120 that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, like 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.920 over the last I bet yeah, I'd say over the 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.160 last five years, the literature on the crossover of of 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.760 autism and trans folks has like skyrocketing. Like in I 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.720 always say, in to twenty alone, something like a hundred 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.360 and fifty articles were published, whereas two years before that, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:13.320 maybe twenty UM and and the vast majority of them 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:19.320 are mentioning the um the co occurrence uh in passing. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.840 So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.440 where autism and trans identity co occurs. So thus you 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:29.240 should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.280 they might be autistic. Yeah, That's the only thing I 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.960 wanted to talk about was like people medical gatekeeping aspect, 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.800 and like you especially see you see this like turfs. 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.320 You know, there's a lot of like infantilization with the 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.600 turf Frederick around this, and then that kind of leads 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.040 to this type of medical gatekeeping. Yeah, I just think, 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:49.720 you know, I see, I see this. I saw this 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.120 in a book with the interviews I did, and I 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.880 see it in so many other places and especially conversation 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.760 with folks. Is that, you know, the problem seems to 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:03.640 be if you tell an unexpected narrative to the person 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.680 in charge of gate keeping you for transgender healthcare, you're 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.360 going to make them nervous. And if you make them nervous. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.080 They're they're not necessarily going to say no, but they're 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.520 gonna say to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.439 and for for autistic folks, waiting and seeing might mean forever, right, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.120 Like I talked to folks in the book, UH that, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.280 you know, without without mentioning actual cities, because of the 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.560 you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.320 let's you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans, uh, 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.679 and he wasn't able to access trans healthcare and New 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:41.240 Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic, 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.640 And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows, 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.480 you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans healthcare, 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.320 which shows a level of capacity that they're implying in 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.839 the context of trans healthcare and New Orleans that he's 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.400 not capable of. But you know, he can uproot his 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.720 whole life, move across the country himself, up find a doctor. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.560 And then he talked to the doctor in an informed 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.200 health clinic in Chicago, and and they were like, oh, yeah, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.160 we knew that you were from this city, and we 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.280 do that you were autistic before you told us, because 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.560 there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.760 migration to Chicago from this particular city because they can't 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.319 get health care. I mean, like, you know, I'm also 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.760 thinking about you know, like kids trying to come out 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.720 as trans, um who have autism or have any other 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:34.920 kind of you know, quote unquote developmental disability UM, and 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.320 like just all of the ways that that can be 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:42.800 used to gaslight kids about their gender identity. UM. I 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.440 know in your book you mentioned stuff around like self 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.640 discovery and coming out and issues with family. UM, what 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.040 kind of what kind of things have you heard about 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:57.319 that in terms of how how kids that who the 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.840 kids are figuring figuring out gender stuff while also having 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.560 this whole other thing that people use to kind of, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.240 you know, add on to their experience. I mean, I think, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.600 you know, one of the things I noticed, especially in 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.640 you know, sort of trans artistic autobiographies, is that, you know, 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.680 gender doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense do 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.080 a lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.160 sense to do. But I mean I have I have 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.240 something going on in my brain. I don't know what 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.160 it is. I don't think it's autism. But yeah, gender's 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.200 never never made sense to me either, And I think, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.080 like where you for autistic people, especially where you come 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.320 across things that don't make an inherent sort of sense, 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.280 it's difficult to accept them. Like so much in the 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.440 world doesn't make inherent sense. But that could be a 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.960 real sticking point for autistic folks. So, you know, what 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:47.719 I see, what I seem to see a lot of 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.480 is that by the time folks come out of well, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.240 first of all, it seems like although you know, I 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.440 don't want to quote any particular kind of research on it, 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.360 because I think the jury is still out, but it 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.160 seems like autistic people are more likely to identify as 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.160 non binary um or to just not identify with gender 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.320 at all. Um. And it does seem like by the 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.559 time folks come out as trans, whatever you know, permutation 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.000 of that there is for them, um, They've they've tried 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.080 just about every other identity they can, you know, they 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.920 can try out like especially you know, I mean, we're 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.600 aware that there are social stigmas and and and social 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.720 expectations around gender. So I think for for a lot 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.120 of autistic folks, they're going to try to fit that 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.600 even though it doesn't make sense to them. They're going 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.040 to try to fit within that because they know it exists, 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.920 and that by the time they come out as as trans, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.480 like or male or female or what have you, like, 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:53.000 we pretty well know there makes any kind of sense. Yeah. No, 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.000 I mean they think that there's a lot of misconceptions 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.560 people have about about me both being trans and pig autistic. 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.680 Let let a load being both of Is there any 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.760 like yeah, like, what's most the common misconceptions about this 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.320 only kind of on like a broader level. Would you 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:15.120 like to dispel? Um? Sure, Yeah, I mean I think 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.520 a lot of people get told, you know, you can't 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.720 you can't be autistic because you're too you're too articulate, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.920 or you know, you have too much of an opinion. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.880 Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves or their 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.600 own life. And that's I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:35.560 what it is. Yeah, absolutely, Um, And then you know, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.960 trans folks get told it's not uncommon to get told, oh, well, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.680 you can't be autistic because you're trans, so you're sort 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:47.520 of in this this no no person's land. That's such 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.360 a it's such like an ontological attack on someone's being 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.040 it's so really is you know, like that's you know, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:59.160 like you know already like again just being solely trans 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.280 or autistic, you at some of that and then together 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:03.920 it's like it's just attacking every kind of part of 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.960 you that you're trying to figure out. Um, well, I mean, 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.160 I mean in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.360 of the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.280 people into whatever you want to be convenient to you. 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.200 What kinds of stuff do you think people should know 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.600 about this to help kind of either you know, to 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.920 help either like counter some of the rhetoric around this, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.960 or just to gain better like personal understanding, right if 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:32.560 they have if they have you know, people in their 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.280 lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.680 they're that they're trans and they're autistic. Like how what 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.240 what kinds of what kinds of stuff would you like 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.720 people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well, 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.400 I guess I remember a story someone from the book 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.200 told me about how you know he was. He had 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.600 his best friend is is trans and autistic as well 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.520 and has a number of physical disabilities, and he was 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.520 kind of he's sort of the caretaker for him. Um, 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.520 and he was kind of talking to him about how, oh, well, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.239 I don't know if I'm trans, and I don't know 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:05.960 if I should, you know, if I should use that 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.199 label or like, you know, maybe it's not the right 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.560 thing to do or it's bad or something. And his 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.080 friend was like, well, you know you're not You're not 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.320 a hormone and vampire. Like you're not gonna like suck 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.480 the hormones onto somebody else and and hurt them by 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.480 taking away their testosterone. Like, oh, I wish is I 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.760 worked like that? Um, you know I would, I would 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:33.119 be a trans vampire. Um, this is about you and 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.840 what makes you comfortable. It's not about like you're not 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.520 hurting anybody else being yourself. And I think you know, 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:46.440 autistic folks like anybody else you know, worry about I mean, 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.679 we're we're just as susceptible to the attacks on trans 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.800 folks as anybody else, right, Like, and you worry that, like, well, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:56.600 maybe this isn't the right thing to do, but like 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.760 what are you hurting by by exploring it? That doesn't 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.919 mean you have to be trans, or you have to transition, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.080 or or you can't change your mind like but it doesn't. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.080 It doesn't hurt anybody, even though you to just be 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.159 open to it, even just like temporarily trying out different 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.880 names or pronouns. Right, it can can be like such 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.960 a big deal, um, and it can be very incidental. 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.119 Like it doesn't it doesn't need to be so cataclysmic. Right, 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.200 That's something that you can experiment with and it's fine, right. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:32.320 You never yeah, you don't lock yourself into anything. Um, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.479 but of course you know what it's about, your personal 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.320 sense of identity. Of course it feels much bigger. Well, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.520 I think I think people worry about what other folks. 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.719 I mean, obviously, people worry about what other folks will 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:47.399 think and mean for them. Um, I don't know. I mean, 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.159 it seems like a strange comparison to make, but I 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.880 don't know. If you've seen Crimes of the Future, I've 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.439 not yet. Oh, it's it's really good. It's it's the 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.200 most recent David Cronbrck movie, and they're just great. I'm 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:02.840 going to give away the end of the movie, so 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:07.119 spoil boilers. I know, we're giving this into a movie podcast. 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.080 What I've always wanted. There's this great scene at the 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.280 end though, where Vigo Mortison is like in this he 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.560 has this special like Verry David Croninbergie bone chair that 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.320 he has to like be in to move him around 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.840 what he's eating, and he finally is convinced by his 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.479 partner to like try the plastic chocolate bar that's you know, 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.520 supposed to be like it's a whole digestive thing. I 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.800 will get into it. But you know, there's this moment 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.280 of realization, like he's been avoiding this for the whole 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.480 the whole movie, and he like tries it and he's 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:40.240 eating it, and suddenly there's this this realization moment in 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.760 his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:49.119 be so difficult, Like, I society doesn't want me to 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.000 do this, and it's it's seen as a crime and 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.280 it's seen as as terrible, but actually when you crossed 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.560 that rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah, 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.800 I mean, especially if you if you're even even if 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.639 you're not like coming out to everybody you know at 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.479 the same time, right, you can start you start off 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:08.960 with a smell group of people that you know are 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.760 gonna be with you, and you try it out with them, 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.560 and if you like it, then great, that's that's a 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.720 really good sign if you if you start it and 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:18.560 you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you don't 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.119 need to commit. Like it's not a thing, right. That 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:25.399 rubicon can feel so big sometimes Yeah, and it feels 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.960 like you're you're jumping across a giant like the Grand Canyon. 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.960 But really, oh it is is you're stepping across, you know, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.080 a small stream and you can step right back across 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.360 there if you didn't like it. Yeah, So what kind 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.320 of things we like to see happen around like the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.800 medical gatekeeping so that it's less fucked up? I mean, 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.119 I know a lot of I'm actually act a conference 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.440 in Belgium right now for trans health sort of medical 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.639 trans health stuff. Um, and you know, I mean, I 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:00.320 think one of the things I keep coming back to 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.560 is you don't need to treat autistic people in the 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.480 realm of trans healthcare any differently than you do anywhere else, 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.720 like anyone else, Like especially in the gate keeper model, 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:14.479 we have like either you have the capacity to consent 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.960 or you don't like that that test is And I 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.800 have lots of thoughts about that if that's for another day. 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.600 But you know, whether you meet those tests or not, 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.120 it should not be any different just because you're autistic. 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.000 UM would like to, I guess talk just briefly about 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.480 your book. Um, you know, what's it like? What? What 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.439 what the scope of it is? Where people can find it? 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.800 UM trans an Autistic Stories from Our Stories from Life 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:55.440 at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. UM. It was 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.560 out in I think people can find it on Amazon 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.840 or wherever you buy books. I'm or Pala's bookstore over 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:06.240 there in Portland has it. Um. Yeah, it's it's a 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.119 series of interviews with folks who are trans and artistic. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.280 I sat down with folks and and asked them about 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:14.399 their life and and what's going on and what that 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.879 looks like. And then I sort of, uh, you know, 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.879 trying to transcribe that into into a text, into a 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.160 narrative form and put that in a book. And here 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.320 we are. That sounds wonderful. UM. I see the I 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:28.520 see that. I see the listing on Amazon dot c 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:34.680 A for our for our Canadian Canadian folks as well. UM. Yeah, 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.159 thank you so much for talking about this. UM. Is 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.720 there any other kind of random thoughts that you would 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:41.639 like to you would like to mention that we haven't 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:46.199 that we haven't brought up yet. Sure. Um, you know, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.719 I always like to plug groups Walsh's work which looks 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:51.919 at you know, they do a lot of work in 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.600 trans autistic stuff too, and they kind of look at 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.240 why more people may be trans an autistic, uh And 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.199 one of the things, as they've they've found is that 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:07.240 it may be that uh autistic people are both less 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.679