1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: for tuning in. That's our super producer, the Willie Wonka 4 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: of Ridiculous History, mister Max Williams, the. 5 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: Snarsberrys taste like snosberries, and the Max Williams. 6 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: Ferry's. That's Noel Brown. I am Ben Bullen and Noel. 7 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Today we are pursuing one of our favorite things. Uh, 8 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: behind the curtain, folks. This is something that we talk 9 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: about with our friends who were in Vogel bamb and 10 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Anti Reese of Savor constantly. It's food history. What's your 11 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: favorite flavor? Do you have? Like a favorite flavor? I 12 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: really like pistachio a lot. 13 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: I like the nuts, I like the ice cream, I 14 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: like the macaron I like it artificial. I like it 15 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: freaking all natural. It's just a damn fine flavor, you 16 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: know what I mean? 17 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, agreed, I'm partial to pineapple. But also I 18 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: eat pretty much everything except for so far human flesh. 19 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: So well, you know, hopefully they're working on this. Actually 20 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: it turned out to not be true grown human flesh, 21 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: but why the hell not if it's not hurting anybody. 22 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I guess it does become an ethical quandary at that point, 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: like is it okay to eat human flesh just on 24 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: a basic level if you're not having to murder the 25 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: human or is there something abhorrent and against God about 26 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: just inherently? Yeah, exactly bidden flavor because maybe it's awesome. 27 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: It's probably chicken. But uh, you know, I was thinking 28 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: about this episode today, Noel, because you and I have 29 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: both recently traveled separately, uh, to Europe, and one thing 30 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: that always stands out is just the different palette of 31 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: fast food flavors or convenience store flavors. Like if you 32 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: go to the United Kingdom, you can get potato chips 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: in all sorts of strange flavorings, right, they're they're just 34 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: like you know what would taste like potato cheese and 35 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: onion cheese. 36 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: And but here's the thing, though, it's very culturally driven, 37 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: because cheese an onion is just like a mega popular 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: just flavor bass kind of I mean, yeah, not to 39 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: rag too hard. In the UK, we know that our 40 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: boy Heston bloom and Thal hails from there, and there 41 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: certainly are the same. Yeah, there are some very thoughtful 42 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: culinary minds out of the UK, but they get a 43 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: bad rap is just like boiled sausage and you know beans, 44 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: it's kind of whatever. 45 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean, an English national dishes curry. You might have 46 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: been an empire, you might have. 47 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And I find that fascinating too. Like 48 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: the Bondme sandwich I find to be among the perfect 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: sandwiches of the world is totally a project, a product 50 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: of imperialism, you know, because it's like it's this French 51 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: bread roll, this baguette that's got like this you know, 52 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: pork kind of roast slow roasted pork and a jalapeno, 53 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: and like it's just it's. 54 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: A weird hodgepodge that you wouldn't get if you didn't 55 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: have people taking each other's countries over. You know, it's 56 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: so weird. You say that because, as per usual, I 57 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: was up very late last night and I had Apocalypse 58 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: Now in the background as I was working out, and 59 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: it's just a cozy, cozy thing, right, Yeah, it just 60 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: been things and so so they had you know, there's 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: that great scene. I think it's only it may only 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: be in the Reducs version, but there's that great scene 63 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: where they see the French Indo China plantation and they anyway, 64 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: this is sort of about imperialism, but it's also. 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you mentioned the thing about the flavors and 66 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: the you know, the artificial flav We're talking about artificial 67 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: flavors the episode. Yes, I'll tell you who does it 68 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: real well? Is is Japan or Asian countries? You to 69 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: what's We're very lucky here in Atlanta to have access 70 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: to places like the Buford Highway Farmers Market where they 71 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: have I you not, most every flavor of weird Japanese 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: lays available. Yeah, and it'll be things like shrimp, It'll 73 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: be things like squid. It'll be things like barbecue, beef steak, 74 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: and even the packaging is dope and weird and it 75 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: comes in these weird little tubes sometimes and I just 76 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: love everything about it. And there is, of course science 77 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: behind this. A friend of mine came over for a 78 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: barbecue the other night and brought. 79 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: Cuban sandwich chips over that tasted like pickles and ham 80 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: and been mustard, and they truly did. And it does 81 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: you get into Willy Wonka territory where when Violet Beauregard 82 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: eats the pill she's like I could feel the soup's 83 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: running down my throat, you know, like it really starts 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: to approach that level of magic. It's all good till 85 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: you hit the blueberries right exactly, never quite never quite 86 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: not nicked that one. Let's watch Willy Wonka later. That's 87 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: that's great, the good one, though not the cursed one 88 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: with Chap and the teeth. We know the one we're 89 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: talking about, and we know what's technically called Charlie and 90 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: the Chocolate Factory. Do you think the Timothy Schallomey one 91 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: was fun? Though it's by the folks that brought us Paddington. 92 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: I know it got a bad rap because out of 93 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: context he does seem goofy and a little try hard. 94 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: But I thought it was a lovely film, and I 95 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: loved that the same guy from the Newest Dune adaptation, 96 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, Timothy shallome is don't be coy with yes 97 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: it is. He's very He's very hot, very hot young man. 98 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: Right now. I love when your voice goes arch, don't 99 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: be coy. I also love that you mentioned Japan, because 100 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: Japan is streets ahead in so many parts of modern society, 101 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: including of course, toilet technology and for our purposes today, 102 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: the KitKat formula, they went absolutely bonkers. They have flavors 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: of KitKat that are not edible flavors, stuff like ocean 104 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: dream or whatever. I'm making that one up, but it's 105 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: probably real. It does feel as though it might resemble 106 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: a air freshener more than a nice, delicious chocolate a tree. 107 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: But stuff like whole grain biscuit, Like what if we 108 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: had a chocolate bar that tasted like a cracker that 109 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of already is a cracker wrapped in a It's 110 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: very meta and I love it. If you go to 111 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: Japanhall dot com you can get a lot of the 112 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: stuffmail or at and it ain't cheap. 113 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: And if you go to Beuford Highway Farmer's Market here 114 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: in Atlanta, these bags of these bonkers kitkats are very 115 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: small and quite expensive. 116 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah you can. You can also learn more about 117 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: kit katsuh with our again our pals over at our 118 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: peer podcast or sister podcast saver h. Look, it's a 119 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 1: brave new world of KitKat flavors and it's all due 120 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: to the science of artificial flavors. No, how would we 121 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: describe artificial flavors? 122 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's it's just it's food science, you know, in 123 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: the same way we have seasonings where you combine different 124 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: types of naturally occurring substances, you know, or perhaps unnaturally occurring, 125 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: like MSG, which is a chemical compound that creates that 126 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: third flavor hit the umami, which I think we all love. 127 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: And we also know that MSG has gotten a bad 128 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: rap do no small part to racism. Shout out to 129 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: our episode on Chinese restaurants. Yeah, and the. 130 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: Simpsons, but thank you for referencing us. 131 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: Know that there was a demonization of Chinese restaurants in 132 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: the United States and that led to the demonization of 133 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: MSG monosodium glutamate. But yeah, I mean, artificial flavoring is 134 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: just a more weaponized, science y version of cooking. 135 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: You know. 136 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: I think both of us in our kind of we 137 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: don't do this as much anymore as we used to. 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: But we used to go on the road and do 139 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: these like sales pitch things. And I think both of us, 140 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: either together separately, ended up at some kind of flavor 141 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: lab where we got a tour of the back rooms 142 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: and it's it's what you think. It's folks in white 143 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: lab coats with like microscopes and big old synthesis machines, 144 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: and I'm no scientists here, but it is science. And 145 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: then you may recall the scene from Breaking Bad at Madrigal, 146 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: the Crazy Big Empire, where you got the CEO taste 147 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: testing these French sauces for their one of their chicken 148 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: franchise or their chicken chains, and the scientists are presenting it. 149 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: They're not chefs, they're scientists. And without spoiling things for 150 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: the Shakespearean level show Breaking Bad, which is, by the way, 151 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: Anthony hopkins favorite show. He says a lot. He wrote 152 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: a letter about it without spoiling things. I believe that 153 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: Gustav Fring genuinely cared about the chicken, and I think 154 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 1: that's a very important character distinction. He gotta start, he 155 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: gotta start with the chicken. You know, yes, Sar, chicken 156 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: came before the meth. I think you know the math 157 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: was just like obviously made more money. But he always 158 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: cared about quality control and cleanliness. You know that episode 159 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: we made that poor kid scrub the friars until his 160 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: hands bland. I mean, not a good guy, but you 161 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: gotta to respect his attention to detail. Not a great guy, 162 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: but he had a code. You know what I mean 163 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: like Ronald Reraken by the way, if you're missing and 164 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: what is it Gian Carlo Esposito in an arch type 165 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: role like that, highly recommend you check out The Boys, 166 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: which is a Bonker's superhero thing, not for the Fate 167 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: of Heart or the Pearl clutchy amongst us. It's very 168 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: raunchy and borderline pornographic at times, but he plays a 169 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: fring esque kind of evil overlord character and he kicks butt. 170 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: He plays kind of our boss a little bit, a 171 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: little bit. Artificial flavors are are a win win for 172 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people because they are a cost effective 173 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: way for these flavor scientists that we just described to 174 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: make something taste like strawberry or snawsberry. I let that 175 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: part out, yep, yeah, without having to use actual strawberries, 176 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: without being dependent upon seasonal harvest nor the weather. When 177 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: everything goes according to plan. This is great. But our 178 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: question day is how did this whole artificial flavor thing 179 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: happen in the first place? Like why does grape candy 180 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: taste so unlike grapes? And what hell is a blue raspberry? 181 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: And why do I love me a grape knee high? 182 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: But I don't really care for a grape off the show. 183 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: You know what I mean, I really and I like 184 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: a banana flavored popsicle. I'm not the biggest fan of 185 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: a banana. 186 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: Ah. Great, that's gonna play the whole banana quandary. 187 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 2: But boil boy, should we just dive right in this 188 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: is let's do it, let's do let's do some science. 189 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Yes please? Okay, So we talked about umammy. The tongue. 190 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: The human tongue has taste receptors. These taste receptors are 191 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: the reason you prefer some foods to others, and they're 192 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: they're like five basic ones. Umami is the controversial one. 193 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: But we know there's sour, salty, bitter, sweet, and this 194 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: sight smell taste of food. It stimulates the production of 195 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: saliva of different chemicals in the stomach. You, if you 196 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: are human, are designed to prioritize some taste over others. 197 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: And that's entirely because of evolution. For most of human history, 198 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: humans were always about to starve. 199 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: So that's a very good point bend, and it wasn't 200 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 2: as much of a luxury as it was about like 201 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: just getting those calories and making sure you didn't die. 202 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: So as evolution and you know, the evolution of science 203 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: and technology became more a thing you were able to 204 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 2: sort of be able to prioritize preference and aside, I 205 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 2: like the way this tastes versus that, and you could 206 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: like pick and choose. I was just going to ask, 207 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: real quid, do you think people who are really picky 208 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: eaters who I have a few of in my life 209 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 2: and sometimes it drives me bonkers, are they is? Is 210 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: there something about their actual equipment that leads to that. 211 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: I know sometimes people have issues with texture and it 212 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: can be a combination, but some people maybe just taste 213 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: things too strongly or it makes them It makes them 214 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: they don't like the way it tastes because something hits 215 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: them too is too. 216 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: Sour, too sweet, too savory. Quite possibly, Yeah, there there 217 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: are psychological, neurological, and physiological factors in all of those. 218 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: Like we know there is a real life genre of superpower, 219 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: super taster, super taste or so uh, those folks will 220 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: those folks have a very Princess in the Pea approach 221 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: to things like capsaius in or salt. Princess in the 222 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: Pea being the Western fairy tale about the princess who 223 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: was so sensitive that she could lay on one hundred 224 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: mattresses or something and still feel a piece. 225 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: A tiny p And you can also kind of bring 226 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 2: it back around to another Western fairy tale of Goldilocks 227 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: and the Three bears, referring to the perfect amount, the 228 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: perfect level of spice or seasoning, which would be that 229 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: Goldilocks zone. 230 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the thing is, so every animal on the planet, 231 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: so far as we know, prioritizes some sources of nutrition 232 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: over others, whether that's a carnivore, whether that's an herbivore, 233 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: an omnivore, or things like the koala or the panda bear, 234 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: which mostly eat one sort of thing bamboo or eucalyptus leaves. 235 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: We know that the big difference between humans all the 236 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: other animals on this planet is that the human proved 237 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: capable of not just finding their favorite flavors in the wild, 238 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: but also creating those flavors or the semblance of them 239 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: for similarite. For most of human history, people tended to 240 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: eat what we would call fresh food, the kind of 241 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: stuff you find in the produce section of the infamous 242 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: Beauford Highway farmers market. That's right, Yeah, you know, just 243 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: your regular old fruit and veg but then as the 244 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: need to keep thinking, there's a couple. It's interesting because 245 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: a lot of these techniques were established or were started 246 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: because of a need to preserve things, but they also 247 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: affect the flavor. And once you get a taste of 248 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: something that's been fermented that's got a little bit of 249 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: that funk to it, you can't really go back if 250 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: it hits you and you like it. So this is 251 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: when you really start to see technol food technology that 252 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: was designed for one purpose starting to gradually change the 253 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: way people perceive flavor. Yeah, it's so nuts. You know 254 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: what we got to do. You know, We've got to 255 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: give everybody the Food and Drug Administration's definition of artificial flavoring. 256 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: You'll see how complicated this issue becomes in the history 257 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: when Noel, could you give us the quote because it's surreal. Absolutely, 258 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: the FDA has this to say. 259 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: The term artificial flavor or artificial flavoring means any substance 260 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: the function of which is to impart flavor which is 261 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: not derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable 262 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf, 263 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: or similar plant material, meat, fish, poultry, eggs, dairy products 264 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: or fermentation products thereof ding. 265 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: Ding ding ding ding ding ding. But that's its own category, right, 266 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: because it transforms the flavor of these things into something 267 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: else entirely mm hmm. And this is not an inherently 268 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: bad idea, right, artificial flavor, So either to our point earlier, 269 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: it can yield some fantasmical, very interesting combinations of texture 270 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: and flavor that can be very appealing and dare I 271 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: say exciting, right, do you have a candy bar that 272 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: tastes like a beetroot that can be you know, again, 273 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: I mentioned Heston Blumenthal. He had a TV series for 274 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: a while where he would kind of approximate the food 275 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: of different eras, like he would do like medieval stuff 276 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: or whatever. And a big thing that he likes to 277 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: do is like disguise something as something else where it'll 278 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: be it looks like a piece of fruit, but it's 279 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: actually made of meat. And there's something your brain does, 280 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: sort of like when you think you're gonna take a 281 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: sip of soda water but it's actually sprite or vice versa. 282 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: Your brain kind of recoils and that's not good. 283 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: But you can weaponize that in a way that is 284 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 2: interesting and exciting, and artificial flavoring is a cool way 285 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: to do that. 286 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. Also shout out to our buddy 287 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: Richard Blaze. That guy's living in the future boy at 288 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: the gastronomic level. The Blaze me. We were on his 289 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: podcast Food Court once we talked about bacon and sausage, 290 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't know him super super well before that 291 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: as a personality, but since then he's blown up, and 292 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of his Next Level Chef series 293 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: with Gordon Ramsey, who I've been a fan of for 294 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: many years. It's sort of this dystopian like they've got 295 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: to like grab food off this lowering platform or whatever, 296 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: and like some of the teams are in the dungeon, 297 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: which is the crappiest kitchen. There's the middle kitchen, which 298 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: is just fine, in the upper one, which is like 299 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: the elite kitchen. But I think it's a really clever show. 300 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: It's based on joy film that has to be there's 301 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: like a European film that is very much a dystopian, 302 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: quite violent thing. They don't reference the film in the show, 303 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure somebody saw that film. 304 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: I can't remember, I'll try to remember what it's called. Yeah, 305 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: our buddy fluency. Our buddy Richard also made my day 306 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: when he so he is one of those guys at 307 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: the forefront of gastronomic science, right, he's combining chemistry with 308 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: fine dining. And he recently we both saw this. Uh, 309 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: I think we have sent it to you. You saw it, 310 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: you posted it. The popcorn thing. He recently taught me 311 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: that you can just use a straw at a movie 312 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: theater popcorn butter dispensary to even to better distribute the 313 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: butter through the popcorn. The guys in the future man 314 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: and also you lest you be thinking, ew, that's gross. 315 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: No, a straw is what's the word like, it's sanitary 316 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: because it's it's wrapped so you can like unwrap it, 317 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: don't touch the end you put into the common little 318 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 2: nozzle and then you just touch the middle and then 319 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: you're you're totally clear. 320 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: You haven't contaminated anything. By the way, that. 321 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 2: Film is called The Platform Spanish is from twenty nineteen, 322 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: and it is a very bleak dystopian film that they 323 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: made into quite an intense and delightful cooking show. But 324 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: to your point about the butter too. That's artificial flavor 325 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: at work too. 326 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it is that movie theater popcorn butter that 327 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: tastes like no butter I ever put in my monk. 328 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: Yet it has the feel of butter, doesn't it. Yes, 329 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: the taste of butter exactly. So I love this idea 330 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: of the word you used earlier was perfect disfluency. Back 331 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, it was an historical flex to 332 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: make something taste different than it looked like it would taste. 333 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: These were proprietary secret recipes for you know, dukes and 334 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: kings and emperors and of course queens and empresses and duchesses. 335 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: The recipes were sometimes put together jumbled into these collections 336 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: called books of Secrets, so they were like food spells. 337 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: We know. Before the first modern artificial flavors became a thing, 338 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians would astract scents and oils from plants. They 339 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: would make essential oils. So what we can learn from 340 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: this is that people were always searching for the next 341 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: great goostation thrill. And it's a pickle, right, because for 342 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: most of human history, if you wanted to make a 343 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: dish taste like strawberries, you have one option you had 344 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: to find and add some strawberries. Humanity took that personally, 345 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: and that's why the story of modern synthetic flavoring all 346 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: goes back to vanilla. Vanilla is it is it made 347 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: from beaver anal Glands ben or is that just an 348 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: urban legend. Well, it's there's a lot to it some time, 349 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: but this one maybe we should. Yeah, you know how 350 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: in American English, the term vanilla just came to mean 351 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: like playing or boring, which I think is a little unfair, 352 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: because honestly, a good vanilla is really complex. 353 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: One made with vanilla beans's actually got little specks of 354 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: the stuff in there, yes, or even like a fancier 355 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: one that it urged alatto, where it's got like crazy 356 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 2: cool texture too, and it's not just overly sweet. I 357 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: think vanilla gets an unfair rap as like being basic, 358 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 2: but it really is quite complex. 359 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: It's just something like that's gotten attached to that. Dude. 360 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: This reminds me of our episode on pineapples as a 361 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: flex when people would just rent pineapples. That's right. Yeah, 362 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: vanilla is more than anything cartoonishly inconvenient. We know it 363 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: comes from meso America. The Aztecs used it to flavor chocolate. 364 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: When the Europeans arrived in the Americas, they loved flexing 365 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: with vanilla. It was the culinary version of a rolex 366 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: at this time, and it became something that you would 367 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: never see poor people or even common people consuming, because 368 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: it was a pain in the butt to grow. It 369 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: was crazy expensive. Part of the reason it's so expensive 370 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: even now is because the vanilla beans are collected from 371 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: the vanilla orchid, and this little guy only opens up 372 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: like one day of the year. It's got a very 373 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: short window of time. If it doesn't pollinate during that time, 374 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: then it doesn't make a vanilla being. And the only 375 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: thing that pollinated it for a long time was a 376 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: particular type of bee, like one guy. One little bee 377 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: Guy's job is to make vanilla And while. 378 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 2: I'm sure under appropriate lab conditions or greenhouse type conditions, 379 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: you know, with great care and expertise, this could be accomplished. 380 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, you know you can by vanilla beans. 381 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: Would they come in a tiny jar sort of like 382 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: saffron threats? You know, very very expensive And. 383 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: One could argue that, yes, of an ice cream made 384 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: with real vanilla bean is an absolute treat, But you 385 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: could also do a Pepsi challenge type situation with the 386 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: artificial version. 387 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: And possibly not quite be able to tell the difference 388 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: if it's done well. Yeah, yeah. Now, for most of 389 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: its history, the vanilla orchide could only be cultivated in 390 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: southeastern Mexico, which is home to the melipona bee, which 391 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: was the only thing that could pollinate this delicious, troublesome thing. 392 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: To mane, I'm wrong. 393 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: Maybe it would be very difficult to do it under 394 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: you know, controlled circumstances. 395 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think you're onto something. 396 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: Maybe it seems I don't know this for a fact, 397 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: but it just seems like these days, with you know, 398 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: specialty greenhouses and all of that kind of stuff, you 399 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: could import the bees and you know, basically, what's the word, 400 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: kind of duplicate or you know, simulate the exact climate 401 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: conditions and make it work. 402 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: And part of the reason why vanilla's a synonym for 403 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: boring today goes back to the story of a guy 404 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: named Edmund Albius, twelve years old, enslaved in a French 405 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: colony about five hundred miles east of Madagascar, this kid 406 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: discovered how to replace the bee hand pollinating the orchid 407 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: by pressing, Yeah, by pressing the stigma and the anther 408 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: together using a stick. So this is still very intensive, 409 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: laborious work, but it created a vanilla market in Madagascar 410 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: which now produces the majority of the world's natural vanilla. 411 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: But if you go in a grocery store, folks, honestly, 412 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: less than one percent of anything vanilla flavored comes from 413 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: actual vanilla, and you could tell the difference to your point, Noel, 414 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: because the stuff that uses actual vanilla from the actual 415 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: vanilla bean, it's insanely expensive. Vanilla is the world's second 416 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: most expensive spice after saffron. You nailed it. Yeah, I know. 417 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: It was cool going to Spain and going to some 418 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: of those markets there, Like I can't remember, there's a 419 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 2: really really big one in the Laramblac district and I'm 420 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: totally spacing on the name. It's very very popular, huge, 421 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: incredible a selection of spices, and you could get at 422 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: least little jars of saffron, but they'd be like twenty 423 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 2: five euro you know, for just like a little tiny jar. 424 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: But it's also a really intensely strong flavor. You only 425 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 2: need a couple of. 426 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Threats over using saffron it's like trust, it's like it's overkill. Yeah, 427 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: and it's a waste. Yeah. Just follow the Persians. The 428 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: Persians understand how to cook with saffron, you know what 429 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: I mean, make that rice's rice. Now we have the problem, 430 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: and this is gonna show us the larger history of 431 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: artificial flavoring. There's something everybody wants, so there's a lot 432 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: of demand and there are clear supply chain issues. You 433 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: just can't make enough vanilla, even with human intervention. It 434 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: takes too long. So in the late eighteen hundreds, a 435 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: guy named Nicholas Theodore Gobli isolates the organic compound that 436 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: is the main mover of that flavor we call vanilla. 437 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: He names it vanillaan vanilla, yeah, vanilla. 438 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: The discovery there paves the way to a little bit later. 439 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: German sciencest Ferdinand Tiemann and Willhelm Harman are able to 440 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: synthesize vanilla from the bark of a of the humble 441 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: pine tree, which is very I guess maybe I don't know, 442 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: you think about pine sap having sort of a savory, 443 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 2: almost mentee kind of flavor. I wonder, I'm just wondering 444 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 2: if it has anything to do with it. So they 445 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: opened the very first vanilla factory in eighteen seventy five. 446 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: So at this point, what was once a very rare, 447 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: sought after, highly expensive ingredient is now accessible to everybody. 448 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: And this is probably when you start seeing it a 449 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: little bit overused, and it probably leads to the association 450 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: of vanilla with like basics, basic flavor. Yeah, and it 451 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: becomes more democratized, more accessible. It's no longer just the 452 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: food of the aristocrats. You know, picture some chimney sweep 453 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: out in London, say you know, bloy me vanilithan me exactly. 454 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: I think we should take this as an opportunity really 455 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: quickly to bust a bit of a myth. I mentioned 456 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: beaver anal secretions earlier. There have been in the past 457 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: sort of alarmist suggestions that artificial the modern artificial vanilla 458 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: flavor that we know today. You might buy the store 459 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: called Vanilla Extract, which is, you know, a successor to 460 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: this vanilla, and I think you know, it's not exactly 461 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: the same, but. 462 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: That's where we've ended up today. Is made using a. 463 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: Secretion from the anal glands of beavers known as castorium, 464 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: and it apparently it is used or has been used 465 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: in the past as a food additive, also known as 466 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: I believe it's not the same as castor oil or 467 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: the oil of the castor bean is castorium. 468 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: It's something separate. 469 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: It's a yellowish brown, kind of pungent liquid with a strong. 470 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: Odor that beavers hold in this sack that's located in 471 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: this cavity between their pelvis and the base of their tail, 472 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: and they spray it, that's right, And they spray it when, 473 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: you know how. And the cats it's like it's not 474 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: pe that that old chestnut, it's something else, and they 475 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: mark their territory. And it has been used as an 476 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: additive in things like perfume, uh, you know, because it's 477 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: it's got these notes. They give you kind of like 478 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: a like a leathery sort of musky odor, and they 479 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: have been in the past you use as food added is. 480 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: But today almost never will a regular you know, consumer 481 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: or grocery shopper come across anything that contains castorium. Yeah, 482 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: because there are thankfully some more regulations involved. But I 483 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: love that you're bringing this up, because who hasn't been 484 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: just nose deep into beaver's button. Thought, this reminds me 485 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: of vanilla, these fun bags. 486 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: And the funny thing is is also it's it wouldn't 487 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: be artificial, would it's. 488 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: It's it's it's organic. It comes sprays out of a 489 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: beaver's But we have to go back to the FDA definition. 490 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't see. Oh well, they say, they say it's 491 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: generally safe. They do recognize it, and they refer to 492 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: it simply as a natural flavoring. I can't. At some 493 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: times you've seen, if you've ever seen lists of ingredients, 494 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: you will sometimes just see natural flavorings. You might call 495 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: that into question because Snope says it's mostly false that 496 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: caastorium is used as commonly used as a food additive. 497 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: Also check out our stuff they don't want you to know. 498 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: Episode on the cartoonish problem with the phrase natural flavoring, 499 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: the synthetic vanilla sources going back to vanilla, Yeah, come 500 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: from all kinds of places. Eugenol, which is a chemical 501 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: compound you find in clove oil, so for anybody smoking clothes, 502 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: sort of spoken word, open mic. You got a vanilla 503 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: thing going on, and then something called lignin, which you 504 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: could find in plants, wood pulp, and cowfeces. Fun, fun, 505 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: fun stuff, In short, vanilla is the plant. Vanilla Linton 506 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: is one of up to two hundred and fifty different 507 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: chemical compounds that make up the flavor we call vanilla. 508 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: And with this story, with this discovery, we see the 509 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: larger story of artificial flavoring in general. 510 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: And today you do have vanilla available, that is what 511 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: it is, still that pure vanilla, or there's an even 512 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: stronger form of it called ethyl vanilla, which are both available. 513 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: Those are two options. Or there is vanilla extract, which 514 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: is derived from real vanilla. So it's almost like a concentrate. 515 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: I guess it's like the essential oil of vanilla. I 516 00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: think that's right. So maybe it isn't the same. I 517 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: think a constant is largely artificial. 518 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: But I'm always been a little confused, like when orange 519 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: juice says not from concentrate. Something in concentrate is real, 520 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: or it's derived from the real thing. It's not just 521 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: whipped up in a lab. 522 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: It's called orange juice. Is so weird? Yeah, that might 523 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: be anothertographer for another day. Do you like yours with 524 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: some pulp ben or you a pulp free? Guard? To you? Like? 525 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: Oh the pulp? You know what? I'm just happy to 526 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: be around the juice. Okactually, that's one of my first 527 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: published short stories is entirely about orange juice. So I'm 528 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: kind of biased, weird. Sometimes the juice is worth the 529 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: squeeze ben. Yeah, but you can't get lost in the juice. Wait, 530 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: lost in the sauce, yeah, or the juice juice sauce interchangeable. 531 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: And this is a two part episode. This often happens 532 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: when all of us Noel, Max, myself and you begin 533 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: exploring the history of food. We got soa to vanilla 534 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: and beavers and cowfeecs right that we didn't even get 535 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: to the Crystal Palace exhibition in London. That might have 536 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: to be part two. Oh man, Yeah, I mean you know, look, 537 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: we love talking about food in general, we love eating food, 538 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: we love the history of food science. So I think 539 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: it's only right and natural, not artificial at all, to 540 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: make this a two parter, because we are gonna we're 541 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: gonna have some fun callbacks about vanilla, because, as you 542 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: can tell ridiculous historians, that is sort of the like 543 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: the first step in this flavor synthesis revolution that then 544 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: opens wide up. We teased banana. 545 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 2: There's a whole story in that that really should and 546 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 2: could be an episode in and of itself. We're going 547 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: to talk about that as well as the idea of like, 548 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, the what essentially is like flavor deep fakes. 549 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, ooh, I'm glad to pick it up. That phrase, 550 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: was that going too far? No? Not at no. 551 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 2: That is a ben ism right there, and I think 552 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 2: it's absolutely accurate because it does get to the point 553 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: where we're like, not no longer are we talking about 554 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: just the using artificial flavoring as a way of saving 555 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 2: some money, but almost as a way of counterfeiting. 556 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: Oh, intrigue, cliffhangers, high stakes. You love to see if folks, 557 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: we love that you're here. Thank you, as always so 558 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Big thanks to Max the Free Train. 559 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: Williams are super producer, and a big big thanks to 560 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: our composer. I still can't believe we have a composer, 561 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: Alex Williams who made this slap and Bob, Hey, Nolan, 562 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: have you talked to Alex recently? How's he doing? It's 563 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: been a minute. He was in town for a bit 564 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: and we hung out a few times. But no, he's 565 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: he's back roaming the wild West's class. 566 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: He's the United States Classic Alex But we love that 567 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,479 Speaker 2: guy huge thanks to Chris Frosciotis n Heaves, Jeff Coats 568 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 2: here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizzor. 569 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: Who is in fact books. We got to book that. 570 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: We got to book that guy. Now he's hot, he's 571 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: in demand. Also aj Bahamas Jacob's the Puzzler, who I 572 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: know we will have back again very soon as well, 573 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: hopefully for that oft promised quiz slash Puzzle Off Yes Yes, 574 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: which we have sort of voluntold both the Puzzler and 575 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: the quizt just participated. So we also want to thank 576 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: all the hard working flavor scientists that we can't wait 577 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: for you to join us for Part two of the 578 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: preposterous History of artificial flavors. We'll see you next time, folks. 579 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 580 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.