Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week Inside from the reporters and
Speaker 1: editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus
Speaker 1: global business finance and tech news as it happened. Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week with Carol Messier and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim
Speaker 1: Stinevin on Bloomberg Radio. Hi, everyone, welcome to the weekend
Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Business Week, Week sixty one. Working from home.
Speaker 1: We were both in the office this week and Tim,
Speaker 1: it was a week full of a lot of economic data,
Speaker 1: volatile markets. We saw global stock slide on inflation concerns. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we did a busy week here at Bloomberg headquarters. Lots
Speaker 1: of our colleagues return into the office for the first
Speaker 1: time in over a year. So it's good to see
Speaker 1: that things are slowly getting back to normal. I talk
Speaker 1: about this all the time. More and more traffic, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and a lot more traffic on the roads and in
Speaker 1: the elevators. Coming up on Bloomberg Business Week, We've got
Speaker 1: a jam packed show. We've got live person CEO Rob
Speaker 1: Lacazio on the proliferation of artificial intelligence. Also an inside
Speaker 1: look at the volatile nature of the multibillion dollar video
Speaker 1: game industry. And we've got in music legend joining us
Speaker 1: as well. Rock and Roll Hall of Famer Nancy Wilson
Speaker 1: on self discovery with live music. She is putting out
Speaker 1: her first solo album ever. And you guys talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about the late great Eddie Van Halen as well.
Speaker 1: Just some great stories. Well, all that to come. We're
Speaker 1: gonna begin this week with the cover story in Bloomberg
Speaker 1: business Week, The spack boom has sputtered thanks to SEC
Speaker 1: warnings and some disappointing performances. One guiding voice admitted all
Speaker 1: the former immigrant kid who is now worth billions, the
Speaker 1: so called pied piper of the recent blank check craze.
Speaker 1: We're talking about venture capitalist to moth Pollyopatia. Bloomberg Projects
Speaker 1: and Investigations reporters Zeke Fox explores how Pollyopatia shaped the
Speaker 1: media and Wall Street narratives around Clover. It's a middling
Speaker 1: health insurer in New Jersey that he reframed as a
Speaker 1: disruptive and game changing profit machine. We're also joined by
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week editor Joel Weber. So the pitch for
Speaker 1: Clover Health is that it was a tech company that
Speaker 1: was going to revolutionize healthcare, and if you weren't listening
Speaker 1: to that closely, you might not even really pick up
Speaker 1: that it was really a health insurance company. And of
Speaker 1: course you can find this all out from its securities
Speaker 1: filings if you're the kind of person who reads those.
Speaker 1: But really it's a medicare advantage plan that almost exclusively
Speaker 1: operates in New Jersey. Not really a very big company,
Speaker 1: and from talking to former employees, one that's had a
Speaker 1: lot of trouble hitting its growth targets in the past
Speaker 1: expanding the way it wanted to. Now, of course they
Speaker 1: have this pitch now that they've invented uh tech tool
Speaker 1: that's sort of the culmination of, you know, a decade
Speaker 1: of their existence that's really going to bring together all
Speaker 1: their machine learning technology to analyze patient data and recommend treatments,
Speaker 1: and that this is what's really going to make the
Speaker 1: company take off. Um. But I hope that the investors
Speaker 1: that are buying it understand that, you know, this is
Speaker 1: a pretty risky new business rather than something that is
Speaker 1: you know, guaranteed to go up, and you say, decade
Speaker 1: in business still losing money, So that if it was
Speaker 1: being taken public, you know, and it was going on
Speaker 1: a road show, you would certainly see, Zeke, it become
Speaker 1: under a lot of scrutiny. Yeah, that's sort of the
Speaker 1: appeal of SPACs for a lot of companies is when
Speaker 1: you go public, the un writers are worried about getting
Speaker 1: sued if they make projections that are wrong, So you're
Speaker 1: almost forced to dwell on your recent results. So if
Speaker 1: you're a company with like Clover that's losing huge amounts
Speaker 1: of money every year, but you're on the verge of
Speaker 1: a turnaround, you say, um, when you do a spack,
Speaker 1: you can talk more about your great future prospects and
Speaker 1: you can hopefully investors won't dwell on your recent losses.
Speaker 1: And there's been just like a huge wave of these
Speaker 1: unprofitable UH companies with big dreams going public through spacts
Speaker 1: this year, and for a while it just seemed like
Speaker 1: all of them went up almost people were talking about
Speaker 1: it like it was almost a new asset class. You
Speaker 1: could just invest in SPACs and get great returns well.
Speaker 1: And then um, gravity kind of came in and and
Speaker 1: things have changed a little bit um and hence the
Speaker 1: spacticost flat cover. Um. Zeke, though, I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: because despite what what we'll publish in the magazine. And Um,
Speaker 1: despite maybe that data, it doesn't seem like it might
Speaker 1: stop Jamas. Right, And even as you were working on
Speaker 1: this story, he announced that there was another one coming
Speaker 1: with a certain gym chain. So how do you how
Speaker 1: do you make sense of of of where Jamas could
Speaker 1: go with his vision of SPACs. So he has turned
Speaker 1: himself into kind of a brand name like Goldman Sacks.
Speaker 1: And if you're a company that wants to go public,
Speaker 1: maybe you hire a bank to do an I p O.
Speaker 1: And now people are aware that there's another option that
Speaker 1: you could merge with one of Pollhopatia's SPACs. And my
Speaker 1: big question is whether the brand name can survive one
Speaker 1: or two bad deals. Um, if it was it was
Speaker 1: built on just sort of this to the moon idea. Um,
Speaker 1: is he gonna lose his appeal if he has a
Speaker 1: mixed track record like anyone who's bringing companies public is
Speaker 1: likely to have. In the long run, you can't all
Speaker 1: be winners. But you're right, he's just the other day
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News broke that he is planning to bring the
Speaker 1: Jim chain Equinox public um. But he hasn't raised any
Speaker 1: new blank check companies for a while, So that's something
Speaker 1: to keep an eye on. If he's uh, raise those
Speaker 1: more gets closer to his goal of like he said,
Speaker 1: that was Bloomberg's Zeke Fox on the King of Spacks
Speaker 1: Chamas Pollopatia. But I think to his followers he's more
Speaker 1: of like a one name person Chama. People tweet it,
Speaker 1: you know who they're talking about, like Madonna. He's definitely
Speaker 1: we within that world. And listen. I think for SPACs, uh,
Speaker 1: the history books will see how they cover this era
Speaker 1: because back is not a new thing. But man, we've
Speaker 1: had quite a boom in the past year. We really have.
Speaker 1: The big question is how sustainable is it because the
Speaker 1: last few months haven't seen that similar boom. Right, we're
Speaker 1: not seeing it in the returns either. Coming up the
Speaker 1: changing face of consumer interactions, that is, they have no
Speaker 1: face at all, live person CEEO Rob Licasio on earnings
Speaker 1: and the booming market for conversational artificial intelligence software. It's
Speaker 1: about bots. It's when we go on a website, tim
Speaker 1: and we get to actually kind of talk with somebody.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm talking with the person. Yeah, it's working,
Speaker 1: It is working. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser
Speaker 1: and Bloomberg Quick Takes to insinivate from Bloomberg Radio to
Speaker 1: the next couple of segments. We're gonna take a look
Speaker 1: at consumers and shopping because we've seen a lot of changes,
Speaker 1: increasingly everybody going digital in the last twelve thirteen months
Speaker 1: because of the pandemic. And I guess some of the
Speaker 1: questions are what happens in a post pandemic world? And
Speaker 1: this one next guest kind of gives us some clues. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's Rob Lacatio, the founder, chairman, and CEO of the
Speaker 1: publicly held application software company it's called Live Person. He
Speaker 1: joined us after his company reported he's strong first quarter.
Speaker 1: He's someone we've talked to you though throughout the pandemic,
Speaker 1: keeping my Live Person. It's an a I powered conversational
Speaker 1: platform for consumers to essentially talk with companies, engaged with companies,
Speaker 1: and Lacascio says, there's a good chance you've interacted with
Speaker 1: his platform, whether you know it or not. We're talking
Speaker 1: about bots, so much demand for UM you know, AI
Speaker 1: and conversationally on bots and messaging consumers, we want to
Speaker 1: do things differently, and so we had like you know,
Speaker 1: Dunkin Donuts now is using it for their consumers to
Speaker 1: sign up for their loyalty programs. And there we got
Speaker 1: a big jewelry company, one of the public company's they're
Speaker 1: selling diamond jewelry with it, sort of like daun it's
Speaker 1: the diamonds. It's kind of like it's moving beyond care
Speaker 1: right now. We just sawty growth in the quarter. That's
Speaker 1: our highest glowth quarter in the history of our companies.
Speaker 1: So so for people who aren't familiar with the actual technology,
Speaker 1: explain where they might have interacted with it. You mentioned
Speaker 1: a couple of companies there, and what exactly they're doing
Speaker 1: when they're communicating and do they know that they're not
Speaker 1: necessarily communicating with a real person. Yes, So like if
Speaker 1: if you've ever been on Delta Airlines or T Mobile
Speaker 1: or City Bank there, you'll be basically if you've messaged
Speaker 1: into using Apple Business Chatter or SMS or even in
Speaker 1: their app, if you're messaging with them like you do
Speaker 1: your friends and family, you're using our technology. So sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not a live agent, and we provide an automated
Speaker 1: what we call botty chiplte that you can order a
Speaker 1: burrito now with a bot called Pepper and pick that
Speaker 1: burrito up at the store. So that's where you would
Speaker 1: have touched it. And we have eighteen thousand customers all
Speaker 1: around the world, so we do about eighty million people
Speaker 1: a month will be interacting on our system with one
Speaker 1: of our eighteen thousand customers. WHA, So what's changed? I mean,
Speaker 1: you have a great you know, first of all, we've
Speaker 1: talked to you a couple of times throughout the pandemic
Speaker 1: and it's been great checking in with you because you
Speaker 1: do have a great vantage point. You work with a
Speaker 1: lot of different companies, different industries from that vantage point.
Speaker 1: We were just talking about. C e o s are
Speaker 1: not giving a lot of forecast longer term, so we're
Speaker 1: not quite sure what happens after maybe the pop in
Speaker 1: the second quarter and after that. What would you say
Speaker 1: about the economy today and maybe out through the end
Speaker 1: of the year. I mean, we're seeing like we have
Speaker 1: a lot of travel, hospitality customers and some of the
Speaker 1: biggest brands in the world from hotels to um you know,
Speaker 1: airlines and man like they they reduced their staff in
Speaker 1: some cases down to like nothing, and now they've had
Speaker 1: the overhire for the amount of demand we're seeing their retail, online, retail.
Speaker 1: We have some of the biggest home building companies in
Speaker 1: the world. We're seeing a lot of action. Their home
Speaker 1: improvement companies a lot of action there. So I think
Speaker 1: there are are are we're seeing basically across our customer
Speaker 1: base a lot of movements. So it feels like things
Speaker 1: are bouncing back now in our world a lot to
Speaker 1: shift into digital. So I think those brands that are
Speaker 1: really being digitally forward and aggressive and really changing how
Speaker 1: they were doing business during COVID are gonna sort of
Speaker 1: they're gonna they're gonna really get the real bang out
Speaker 1: of as we come through this thing. So what does
Speaker 1: that look like on the other side in terms of
Speaker 1: how people interact with other people versus how they're interacting
Speaker 1: with bonds. What do companies that are reopening or that
Speaker 1: have reopened need to be prepared for the different way
Speaker 1: that consumers want to communicate. What do you see? I
Speaker 1: think it's really like the retail, it's been really interesting retail,
Speaker 1: Like obviously the retail physical locations got shut down. Now
Speaker 1: they're opening back up, but we're seeing such demands still
Speaker 1: in digital using messaging, allowing the consumer to have that
Speaker 1: personal experience, and that's what we need, Like we'd like
Speaker 1: to have conversations as people because it's how our brain works.
Speaker 1: We want to ask questions about products and we need that.
Speaker 1: So being able to provide that, especially in the retail area,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's about going back to stores. It's about, yes,
Speaker 1: the stores will be there. But I can tell you
Speaker 1: these retailers were working with like this big jewelry company,
Speaker 1: like they have three thousand stores in the US, the
Speaker 1: amount of money they've they've created an opportunity digitally now
Speaker 1: where they didn't think they could sell like this, sell
Speaker 1: a diamond necklace or diamond ring, and they're able to
Speaker 1: do it. That's what they're really starting to see is that, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we should have done this a long time ago. This
Speaker 1: is our future. We don't have to just rely on
Speaker 1: people walking in our stores. You and I talked about this,
Speaker 1: I think before. It was somebody during the pandemic that
Speaker 1: we talked with. It was kind of high end watches
Speaker 1: and they were doing virtual meetings with consumers to show
Speaker 1: them stuff, you know, and shot that way and personally
Speaker 1: these converse conversational bots. I kind of enjoyed. It engages
Speaker 1: me and I feel like I actually have some personal experience. Rob, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's what it is. Like the version one
Speaker 1: of the bots a couple of years ago, we're pretty bad.
Speaker 1: But our platform and what we're able to do with it,
Speaker 1: and it's just the way we built the platform and
Speaker 1: the way we have the data and the way our
Speaker 1: customers can build their bods like Pepper this this bot
Speaker 1: for Chipalti. It's it's like you basically you talk to
Speaker 1: it and you have this relationships and you build a
Speaker 1: burrito and and it's cool. It's like it's not just
Speaker 1: like give us your burrito order, Press one, Press twility,
Speaker 1: like you converse with this, like there's a personality and
Speaker 1: as personality. And that's the cool thing is that the
Speaker 1: websites are all sort of the same when you think
Speaker 1: about them, top navigation a bunch of texts and pictures.
Speaker 1: Every brand now can create a different type of think
Speaker 1: about it, like it's almost like they put a live human.
Speaker 1: They it's automated, but they create a personality for it.
Speaker 1: That was Roblicasio, founder, chairman and CEO of Live person listen,
Speaker 1: I think about, you know, what I have done over
Speaker 1: the last twelve thirteen months. And when I go online,
Speaker 1: it's not just about looking at a website, picking things
Speaker 1: and just filling out the order form. Essentially. There are
Speaker 1: times I have questions. I did it with a paint
Speaker 1: company and I started talking with somebody. I did it
Speaker 1: with framing, somebody actually had an ongoing conversation. And I
Speaker 1: have to say, as a consumer, I really like it
Speaker 1: because I get my questions answered right away. I do
Speaker 1: think it's something that has become as as the technology
Speaker 1: has gotten better, it's become increasingly acceptable to consumers because
Speaker 1: there is that fine line between what actually works and
Speaker 1: what makes a consumer more frustrated if they can't get
Speaker 1: the answer to what they're looking for. And I have
Speaker 1: to stay every once in a while, though, there's a
Speaker 1: bot that it's like, you can tell it's like standard questions.
Speaker 1: You're like, no, that's not what I want, that's not
Speaker 1: what I'm asking, all right. Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week,
Speaker 1: Ruin and Recovery in the video game industry. Bloomberg's Jason
Speaker 1: Schreyer on his book Press Reset, all about how our
Speaker 1: series of renowned studios fell apart. This is someone who
Speaker 1: knows the video game industry inside and it's a second
Speaker 1: book on the industry. Yeah, and it is a fantastic read.
Speaker 1: Also up next the Shop from Home. Boom is here
Speaker 1: to stay, but now people are buying clothing and accessories
Speaker 1: for going out. Retail veteran Julie Bornstein on consumer spending
Speaker 1: patterns and the one year anniversary of her shopping app,
Speaker 1: the yes, are you shopping more? I am shopping a
Speaker 1: little more, a little differently. Yeah, I mean I don't
Speaker 1: shop much in general. Okay, okay, cat talk to your wife,
Speaker 1: Yes you can, all right, that's coming up. This is
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Broadcasting from the financial capital of the world, Bloomberg
Speaker 1: eleven Frio in New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg
Speaker 1: to Boston, Bloomberg one O six one to San Francisco,
Speaker 1: Bloomberg nine six to the country Sirius XM CHADO one
Speaker 1: nine team, and around the globe the Bloomberg Business app
Speaker 1: and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week.
Speaker 1: We mentioned we had a couple of interviews when it
Speaker 1: comes to consumer spending. This is our second one and
Speaker 1: this next guest has a front row seat when it
Speaker 1: comes to consumer spending in retail. We're talking about Julie Bornstein.
Speaker 1: She's founder and CEO of the shopping app The Yes,
Speaker 1: which she launched him one year ago. Talk about timing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she knows a thing or two about retail. She's
Speaker 1: a former chief operating officer of stitch Fixed, former chief
Speaker 1: digital officer at Sephora, executive responsibilities at Urban Outfitters in
Speaker 1: Nordstrom as well, and now she's steering a company that
Speaker 1: she launched during the pandemic towards a more normalized retail climate.
Speaker 1: So here's what people are spending their money on. When
Speaker 1: it comes to fashion, we definitely are starting to see
Speaker 1: sort of a turn in pattern. Um. I would say.
Speaker 1: In the beginning of our launch last May, which was
Speaker 1: a crazy time to try and launch a fashion business,
Speaker 1: we were primarily selling casual clothes Zoom tops was a
Speaker 1: big category, and leggings and comfortable clothing, um. And it
Speaker 1: was interesting because we definitely saw, with the world really
Speaker 1: focusing on online shopping, an appetite for consumers to try
Speaker 1: out new apps. You know, I think as everyone started
Speaker 1: doing grocery shopping on instat cart and other ways of
Speaker 1: sort of going through life. We saw a lot of
Speaker 1: people downloading our app called the Yes and UM, you know,
Speaker 1: I would say both playing around and uh sort of
Speaker 1: thinking about what they want to buy in the future
Speaker 1: and then buying pretty practical clothes. Um. But we started
Speaker 1: to see um, some light at the end of the
Speaker 1: tunnel of the COVID pandemic in the thought that people
Speaker 1: are starting to buy for going out. So we're seeing
Speaker 1: some occasion categories like dresses and heels, UM, and some
Speaker 1: other interesting trends. How much are they buying and how
Speaker 1: much do you think has also been impacted as a
Speaker 1: result of the stimulus payments? How much has that given
Speaker 1: kind of maybe a boost to some of the business
Speaker 1: at the Yes. The Yes cells primarily branded um, you know,
Speaker 1: mid to hire price points, so we're probably a little
Speaker 1: less sensitive to the checks. But I think just the
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a combination of the stimulus checks
Speaker 1: and the fact that sort of consumer confidence is growing
Speaker 1: and people just are starting to think about going out
Speaker 1: again is very evident in we're seeing an increase in
Speaker 1: total sales and obviously a change of what people are
Speaker 1: buying well. And so how has kind of what you've
Speaker 1: seen Julie and maybe the last few months maybe changed
Speaker 1: your thoughts and thinking about the rest of the year. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that the it's hard to predict
Speaker 1: how things will come back, UM, and I think it's
Speaker 1: gonna be, um, a slow, steady return, especially in fashion.
Speaker 1: If you kind of look at historical trends, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes a little while for things to come back.
Speaker 1: And it also, UM, I think there's sort of this
Speaker 1: combination of you have sort of this money that you
Speaker 1: haven't spent in this category, UM, so you're excited to
Speaker 1: spend it. And on the flip side, you haven't worn
Speaker 1: anything in your closet for the past year, um, And
Speaker 1: so you know, I think and then the things that
Speaker 1: you have bought you kind of want to burn because
Speaker 1: you've been wearing but you have gotten used to wearing
Speaker 1: comfortable things. So I think there are a number of
Speaker 1: interesting dynamics that play and we're seeing a little bit
Speaker 1: all of it play out. Um. Certainly in terms of
Speaker 1: some of the you know, if you look at the
Speaker 1: product categories that the fashion brands are making, they've added
Speaker 1: a lot of casual into their line and it seems
Speaker 1: as though they will keep that while also we'll start
Speaker 1: to see the return of more, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: clothing to go out in for occasions and ultimately for work,
Speaker 1: which I think will come back even later because return
Speaker 1: to office won't happen more at scale until the fall, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, i'mwhere in heels, to be fair, I'm getting
Speaker 1: dressed up you so like you do get back and
Speaker 1: that's from you know, yoga pants and jeans and bare
Speaker 1: feet at home for eight nine months. Um Or is
Speaker 1: there anything you know, you're just talking about kind of
Speaker 1: how people are adapting some of their lines to include
Speaker 1: some of that you know, casual wear. But is there
Speaker 1: anything from the pandemic in terms of how we shopped
Speaker 1: or how we looked at the stuff we owned, how
Speaker 1: that stays with us post pandemic. Yeah. I mean I
Speaker 1: think two of the um sort of trends that I
Speaker 1: think stick is, you know, we saw a step function
Speaker 1: change in the amount of purchasing online and so you know,
Speaker 1: there have been sort of there's been a steady growth
Speaker 1: in online purchasing. I've been in online retail for twenty
Speaker 1: years and you know you've seen a very steady rise. Um.
Speaker 1: But I think we saw a step change function this
Speaker 1: year that will continue um, meaning that we've increased the
Speaker 1: trend and now we will sort of continue to grow
Speaker 1: off of that new trend. That was Julie Bornstein, founder
Speaker 1: and CEO of the shopping app The Yes. She was
Speaker 1: former chief operating officer of stitch Fixed, former chief digital
Speaker 1: officer as Aphora or did Urban Outfitters Nordstrom. You know
Speaker 1: someone who really, you know, has worked in retail for
Speaker 1: a long time see me ups and downs and understands
Speaker 1: kind of the evolution in how we're shopping throughout the pandemic.
Speaker 1: We've been hearing from executives and talking about this a lot.
Speaker 1: The acceleration of trends pretty amazing, Caroll. To see a
Speaker 1: company get five years worth of shopping trends compressed into one.
Speaker 1: That's that really stood out for me, just as a
Speaker 1: reminder of how much happened in the last year and
Speaker 1: and the impact it's going to have want all of
Speaker 1: us going forward. All Right, you're listening to Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week coming up next, the rise and fall of some
Speaker 1: gaming heavyweights. We're talking about video games. Yeah, the dark
Speaker 1: side of the video game industry. We're bringing it to light.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with
Speaker 1: Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: Do my reclose cover story Bloomberg Business Week from the summer.
Speaker 1: It was about the dark underbelly of a business built
Speaker 1: on fund Tim, this is a story about the video
Speaker 1: game industry. Bloomberg News technology writer Jason Schreyer joined us again,
Speaker 1: this time around talking about his new book, an excerpt
Speaker 1: of which was just in the magazine. I could not
Speaker 1: put this story down when I started reading, and Carol,
Speaker 1: I'm not a gamer, and the mark to me of
Speaker 1: good writing is bringing someone in who has no experience
Speaker 1: in something, and that's how I feel about gaming. I
Speaker 1: just could not stop reading this. I was enthralled. Well,
Speaker 1: this is the second book on the industry, and he
Speaker 1: really brought it down to the people in the industry
Speaker 1: and how the ups and downs can really imp packed
Speaker 1: them personally. The book is called Press, Reset, Ruin and
Speaker 1: Recovery in the Video Game Industry, and an unforgiving one
Speaker 1: despite the hundreds of millions of dollars that it generates.
Speaker 1: So with my first book, I kind of broke down
Speaker 1: the question of why are games so hard to make?
Speaker 1: And I kind of answered that through a bunch of
Speaker 1: case studies exploring different games and telling their stories. With
Speaker 1: this book, I wanted to so more of a human story,
Speaker 1: tell the story of people in the video game industry
Speaker 1: and the hardships that they sometimes go through, and what
Speaker 1: that means for them, what it does to them, um,
Speaker 1: what kind of how it feels, how they recover afterwards.
Speaker 1: And through that I explored the question of why is
Speaker 1: this games industry which is making so much money, it
Speaker 1: made a hundred eighty billion dollars last year, Why is
Speaker 1: it so unstable for its workers? Why are workers whether
Speaker 1: they have such a hard time keeping their jobs in
Speaker 1: this industry. You write it's about heartbreak and tragedy, it's
Speaker 1: also about recovery. I mean, there are several instances in
Speaker 1: the book where you talk about you know, people who
Speaker 1: have worked together, as you say, pulled all nighters, you know,
Speaker 1: working on games, you know, hitting deadlines and so and
Speaker 1: so forth, only to come in and just find out
Speaker 1: that they don't have a job and they're not going
Speaker 1: to see these people anymore. Yeah, And it's not only
Speaker 1: that their games failed or that the company is in
Speaker 1: business trouble. Sometimes it's a successful game, as in the
Speaker 1: case of Irrational Games, which is one of the companies
Speaker 1: that I cover in the book. They made a game
Speaker 1: called BioShock, which is very popular, critically acclaimed. About a
Speaker 1: year after their most recent game, BioShock Infinite, everybody came
Speaker 1: in to find that the studio was shutting down. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it can be really brutal. One of the worst parts
Speaker 1: I think, and I talked about this quite a book,
Speaker 1: quite a bit in Press Reset, is that, um, you
Speaker 1: are kind of stuck wherever you are, and you might
Speaker 1: have to move thousands of miles away. I didn't get
Speaker 1: a new job in a Rationals case. They were in Boston,
Speaker 1: and there are not a lot of other video game
Speaker 1: companies in Boston, so a lot of the people who
Speaker 1: wanted to stay and keep working in games have to
Speaker 1: move across the country, up with their whole families. And
Speaker 1: it can be really just burn people out. It's it
Speaker 1: feels unsustainable to me. I feel like it's a company
Speaker 1: that goes bank right and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: everybody's in there, the vultures like I want the desks,
Speaker 1: I want this, But I mean, you talk about when
Speaker 1: a company goes down, one of these video game company
Speaker 1: goes down, then all of a sudden, recruiters fly and
Speaker 1: right to kind of take the workers. So they are
Speaker 1: in demand, but as you said, they often have to
Speaker 1: be uprooted and move their families, maybe across the country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's funny. I saw it stat just the other day.
Speaker 1: That was essentially it was a list of job postings
Speaker 1: for the video game industry, and there were like a
Speaker 1: couple of hundred jobs here and there for junior level people,
Speaker 1: and then it was like thousands of senior level Apple
Speaker 1: like applicated job listings for senior level positions. And the
Speaker 1: reason that is is because the game's industry has this
Speaker 1: dearth of people who have five ten years of experience
Speaker 1: because so many of them burn out. So yes, these
Speaker 1: recruiters are seizing in and helping to get some of
Speaker 1: that talent, some of that experience. But a lot of
Speaker 1: those people might not want to move. I mean, in
Speaker 1: the Rationals case, a lot of the people who were
Speaker 1: in Boston. Um, maybe if they're in their twenties, they
Speaker 1: can move across the country and get these jobs they're
Speaker 1: kind of free. But if they're in their thirties, they
Speaker 1: have families, didn't want to pull their kids out of school,
Speaker 1: so a lot of them just left the industry entirely
Speaker 1: went to other tech companies in the area, UM finance company, banks,
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and that we are seeing uh way
Speaker 1: too much. Well, we all got a tease of your
Speaker 1: book thanks to Business Week magazine where there was an
Speaker 1: excerpt in there, and that's where the Bloody Sox chapter,
Speaker 1: which is specifically about Kurt Chilling of the Red Sox UM.
Speaker 1: Just give us a little little tease and and folks
Speaker 1: can go to Bloomberg dot com or on the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: or buy your book to read the whole story, because
Speaker 1: I feel like that chapter alone could be a Netflix
Speaker 1: series or a movie because it's just fascinating, very successful
Speaker 1: baseball player, but it didn't turn out so well when
Speaker 1: it comes to video games. Ultimately. Yeah, yeah, man, thank
Speaker 1: you for the kind words. And yeah, so Kurt Chilling,
Speaker 1: formerly of the Red Sox UM these days best known
Speaker 1: as kind of uh provocateur, right wing provocateur um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: he very much like came from the baseball life. Was
Speaker 1: very much like I'm going to treat all my employees
Speaker 1: like all stars. I'm going buy them the best of
Speaker 1: the best, get them on these perks and the best
Speaker 1: health benefits, which on it's on the on the face
Speaker 1: of things, is pretty great by that. But he wound
Speaker 1: up running the company completely out of money. They wound
Speaker 1: up taking a giant low and that was guaranteed by
Speaker 1: the state of Rhode Island for seventy five million dollars
Speaker 1: in exchange for moving to Rhode Island and getting a
Speaker 1: bunch of jobs. They're in Providence, um, and wound up
Speaker 1: burning through that in a year. Suddenly, one day everybody
Speaker 1: gets into works. They think they have been made in
Speaker 1: the shade that they're here at this company where they
Speaker 1: are treated like the best of the best. They get
Speaker 1: into work one day and they are not paid their
Speaker 1: paychecks of not process. Because it turns up the company
Speaker 1: ran completely out of money. Um. None of them got severance,
Speaker 1: none of them got those final paychecks that were all
Speaker 1: robbed essentially of weeks of work, and all were stuck
Speaker 1: in Rhode Island where there are no other game companies.
Speaker 1: It's a similar story, so Chason, chapter nine, Human Costs,
Speaker 1: Human Solutions, and you and you write, ask any veteran
Speaker 1: video game developer their least favorite thing about the industry,
Speaker 1: and you'll probably get a different for of the same answer.
Speaker 1: It treats people poorly. It choose them up and then
Speaker 1: spits them back out, leaving nothing but gristle and bones behind.
Speaker 1: So why do they do it? Because people go back, right?
Speaker 1: Or do they go back to the industry? I mean
Speaker 1: they do write they like it well and pretty much
Speaker 1: a young persons industry. And um, there's a great there's
Speaker 1: a great quote in the book from a guy named
Speaker 1: Zack Mumbox who has been a long time at e A,
Speaker 1: and at one point later in his career, he said,
Speaker 1: I was looking around in the office, and when I
Speaker 1: had started in two thousand, I was in my twenties
Speaker 1: and everyone else is in their twenties. Now I'm looking
Speaker 1: around my thirties and everyone else is in their twenties,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, where is everyone who came up with me?
Speaker 1: And the answer is that the video game industry, while
Speaker 1: it's certainly fun, I mean it's fun to work on games,
Speaker 1: and it can be really interesting and challenging and creatively satisfying. Um,
Speaker 1: all these these terrible factors, including the volatility that I
Speaker 1: cover in press reset um just lead to a whole
Speaker 1: lot of burnout. Um. And I'm not sure how many
Speaker 1: of those people are going back. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people just feel like games does not treat them. Games,
Speaker 1: the games industry does not treat them right. Is there
Speaker 1: any model that just seems to work above and beyond
Speaker 1: other models or is this just yeah, like, what are
Speaker 1: the companies that maybe have done it right? Yeah? Well,
Speaker 1: there are a couple of things, and I explore in
Speaker 1: the chapter you mentioned, I explore some of the potential
Speaker 1: answers to these questions and solutions to these problems that
Speaker 1: I bring up there. Um. One is the big one
Speaker 1: is unionization, which has not happened in the North American
Speaker 1: video game industry at all. Um. And you look at, uh,
Speaker 1: the video games kind of sister industry in Hollywood, and
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that people are able to maintain
Speaker 1: careers in that field just because they're unionized and so
Speaker 1: they have protections in place, and they might pounce around
Speaker 1: from gig to gig, but they know they'll get paid
Speaker 1: for every overtime hour, and they know they're going to
Speaker 1: get a certain minimum salary, and they know they're going
Speaker 1: to get benefits and health care. UM. So that's a
Speaker 1: big thing, and I think that could offer some protections
Speaker 1: and give workers to see the table in the video
Speaker 1: game industry UM to a level that they haven't seen before.
Speaker 1: The other thing and this is it. It's wild timing.
Speaker 1: You were talking about zoom before and how a year
Speaker 1: ago we had no idea what it is. UM. I
Speaker 1: actually think that remote work is one of the big
Speaker 1: solutions to the to the video game industry's woes. And
Speaker 1: I said that because, like I mentioned earlier, UM, the
Speaker 1: worst part about being caught in a layoffers to be
Speaker 1: a shutdown is knowing that you might have to move
Speaker 1: thousands of miles away, you might have to uproot your family.
Speaker 1: That's ultimately what drives a lot of people out of gaming.
Speaker 1: And a solution to that might be if hey, okay,
Speaker 1: I just got laid off, but I can just log
Speaker 1: into my computer my home office and potentially get a
Speaker 1: job anywhere without having to move. That I think would
Speaker 1: keep a lot of people who left the industry from
Speaker 1: burning out because they would have to worry about moving
Speaker 1: to a new city every time they had to switch shops.
Speaker 1: So a game changer. Give me an idea too, you said,
Speaker 1: it tends to be a lot of younger individuals. I
Speaker 1: remember doing a story on a video game company years
Speaker 1: ago out on the on the West coast, uh, in
Speaker 1: conjunction with it, think it was Stanford that either had
Speaker 1: a program you know, that was just specifically geared to
Speaker 1: UM teaching people to kind of how to be in
Speaker 1: the video game industry. What do they get paid typically? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it varies drastically. Like if you're on if
Speaker 1: you're in San Francisco, coach, you're an engineer, you could
Speaker 1: be making over six figures. It could be making a
Speaker 1: hundred fifty something like that. But then again you look
Speaker 1: around and face between Google and you could be making
Speaker 1: double the double that. So it's it's uh, it's all relative, right, UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it could really drastically differ depending on your discipline,
Speaker 1: depending on your years of experience, depending on whether you're
Speaker 1: at a big company or smart company. UM. But in general,
Speaker 1: the people on the bottom of the potem pole, the
Speaker 1: q A, which is quality assurance, the testers in the
Speaker 1: video game industry, they're the people who are paid to
Speaker 1: find all the bugs and games. UM. They're making around
Speaker 1: usually close to a minimum wage, maybe not exactly that,
Speaker 1: but um, twenty dollars an hour or something like eighteen
Speaker 1: twenty dollars an hour, um. And then you kind of
Speaker 1: get bumped up over that as you become if you're
Speaker 1: if you're a junior designer, maybe you're making I don't
Speaker 1: know how forty fifty a year, and then you kind
Speaker 1: of go up from there. It is, by no means
Speaker 1: a well paying industry. It's not. It's not banking or
Speaker 1: chech or anything like that unless you are at the
Speaker 1: very top. Unless you're here. Yeah. That's Bloomberg's Jason Schreier
Speaker 1: on his new book Press Reset, ruining recovery in the
Speaker 1: video game industry. Jason, by the way, also best selling
Speaker 1: author of his first book, Blood, Sweat and Pixels, also
Speaker 1: on the video game industry. That reps up the first
Speaker 1: hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim Standard. That
Speaker 1: coming up in our next hour, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist
Speaker 1: Joyant Lublin on the importance of women in the workforce
Speaker 1: and rock and roll legend and Nancy Wilson fly solo
Speaker 1: for the first time. I love that interview. Also, Americans
Speaker 1: faith in their biggest institutions, including the business community, remains fraud.
Speaker 1: Edelman founder and CEO Richard Edelman on his firm's latest
Speaker 1: trust barometer that's coming up. This is Bloomberg. This is
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who
Speaker 1: bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business,
Speaker 1: finance and tech news. As it happened. It's Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovin
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. Hi, I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim
Speaker 1: stan playing ahead in our second hour of the weekend
Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Business Week, and we really dig deep,
Speaker 1: Tim into leadership and the workplace because there is a
Speaker 1: bit of a shift going on because of what happened
Speaker 1: in the past twelve and we're going to continue to
Speaker 1: see it. This one we're doing with former Best Buy
Speaker 1: CEO he Bears Jolie, who says that it's time to
Speaker 1: enter the next era of capitalism. We'll also hear from
Speaker 1: award winning journalist Joanne Lublin on her new book Power Moms.
Speaker 1: It's all about struggles of women trying to balance management
Speaker 1: responsibilities with raising children. She talked to some really prominent
Speaker 1: female executives, many in the C suite, for her book.
Speaker 1: Let's Get It All started with an update on trust
Speaker 1: between A. Mary Kins and companies, the government, media and more.
Speaker 1: We are talking about the trust barometers from the Global
Speaker 1: communications from Edelman, which this time around looked at business
Speaker 1: and racial justice in America, and for that we heard
Speaker 1: from Edelman founder and C Richard Edelman. We began with
Speaker 1: asking how the business environment has evolved in the past year.
Speaker 1: I think on systemic racism, there's an increased height of
Speaker 1: the bar. You know, a year ago it was companies
Speaker 1: just saying or or or or or ads for brands
Speaker 1: saying you know how sorry we were for the murder
Speaker 1: of George Floyd. That's performative. Now we're looking to companies
Speaker 1: to actually make a big um commitment, a big difference,
Speaker 1: and you know, otherwise it's just not going to work.
Speaker 1: You know, Basically, there's such an opportunity for business here
Speaker 1: two talk to its employees, all of whom are looking
Speaker 1: for serious action on more diversity on boards, more diverse
Speaker 1: city and senior management, change in the supply chain. So
Speaker 1: that you use black and Hispanic small businesses. And also
Speaker 1: they want CEO to speak up on voting rights bills,
Speaker 1: and how is it that we passed legislation in Florida
Speaker 1: and Texas that restricts people's right to vote. I think
Speaker 1: it's a great thing that we had record voter turnout
Speaker 1: in UH this year compared to any election since. But
Speaker 1: that's not what some others see well, and I have
Speaker 1: to say it was a little surprising I think on
Speaker 1: some level that maybe Americans didn't think we made more progress.
Speaker 1: Dig a bit deeper into some of the data points. UM.
Speaker 1: One that came out for me through just people of
Speaker 1: color black, we're talking about UM, Latin Americans here in
Speaker 1: the United States, the Asian CE brands is doing enough
Speaker 1: to redress racism in their communities. I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: small percentage. Well, Carol, the big thing that changed in
Speaker 1: this last year since we lasted this study is that
Speaker 1: corporations actually jumped about over fifteen points. Brands were flatlined.
Speaker 1: So again the idea that corporations have made some progress
Speaker 1: in their hiring and in promotion of people of color, UM,
Speaker 1: but a big change the Asia, the Asian Americans, they
Speaker 1: are seeing record levels of violence and all of a sudden, um,
Speaker 1: you know, six of them say the business community is
Speaker 1: ignoring problems of racism against Asian Americans. So this is
Speaker 1: a big new constituency that we have to pay attention
Speaker 1: to do something to help. Well. And what's interesting is, um,
Speaker 1: the constituency is doing something right and they are stopping
Speaker 1: using a lot of brands right if they don't agree
Speaker 1: with how certain companies have responded to systemic racism. Wasn't
Speaker 1: it amazing that the respondents said they've actually changed brands
Speaker 1: if they don't stand up and speak up. And I
Speaker 1: think a good example of doing it the right way
Speaker 1: is Dove where you see that, you know, for their
Speaker 1: Dove Men's UM. They showed on the n C Double
Speaker 1: A Men's Finals UM a ad that showed um, African
Speaker 1: Americans who have been basketball players who have gone on
Speaker 1: to great careers, and it says, you know, see African
Speaker 1: American men for who they are, you know, their politicians,
Speaker 1: their business people, their teachers, They're not just jocks right exactly. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what's interesting is that, I mean, what is
Speaker 1: it that Americans, our consumers or customers want businesses to
Speaker 1: be doing is it transparency in addition to taking action
Speaker 1: but then showing you know the results of such. They
Speaker 1: want to change the game. Example, KFC put a hundred
Speaker 1: million dollar fund together to enable African Americans and Hispanics
Speaker 1: especially who our store managers, to be able to become franchisees.
Speaker 1: They had a very low percentage of diverse owners and
Speaker 1: so they've changed it by putting up the equity money
Speaker 1: such that then that man or woman can go to
Speaker 1: the bank and borrow the money, then become a franchise
Speaker 1: that puts them on the trained to success. And otherwise,
Speaker 1: these these sort of financial hurdles make it impossible to
Speaker 1: create step change. So Richard tell us, there's one finding
Speaker 1: that talks about the number of Americans who believe CEOs
Speaker 1: themselves are deeply racist. What did you guys find? So, look,
Speaker 1: I think that UM eight intent expects CEOs to act
Speaker 1: that they have to have a zero tolerance for racism
Speaker 1: and the organization. They have to ensure the organization is
Speaker 1: racially representative of the country as a whole. They have
Speaker 1: to make sure that their training and promoting black and
Speaker 1: Latin and API employees. The question is are CEOs unaware?
Speaker 1: Are they or are they somehow you know, acting in
Speaker 1: a knowledged in a way in which they have knowledge
Speaker 1: of the racial problems. And I think CEOs have to
Speaker 1: pay real attention here. Two how they change their organizations.
Speaker 1: This is not something that's going to pass. This is
Speaker 1: absolutely as much an urgent issue as it was a
Speaker 1: year ago. And the companies are being expected to fix
Speaker 1: problems that government normally would right that they're stepping into
Speaker 1: the void. My employer is the most trusted organization, big
Speaker 1: jump seventeen points and my employer, meanwhile, government pretty well
Speaker 1: go sideways. And you know it's twenty points higher than
Speaker 1: business and thirty points higher than than than government. My employer.
Speaker 1: So my company's got to act, that's what I'm expecting. Well,
Speaker 1: that's Edleman, founder and CEO Richard Edelman. You're listening to
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week coming up. He was at the Helm
Speaker 1: when Best Buy emerged as one of America's top electronics retailers,
Speaker 1: and now he there Jolisa's it's time to reach think
Speaker 1: how we look at stakeholder capitalism and prioritize purpose over profits.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol
Speaker 1: Masser and Bloomberg Quick takes Tim Stenovik from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: Kuber Julie ran best By a CEO for about seven
Speaker 1: years before transitioning to chairman for another year. He is
Speaker 1: on the boards of J and J. Ralph Lauren a
Speaker 1: senior lecturer at Harvard Business School. He has done a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: He's been recognized as one of the top CEOs in
Speaker 1: the world by the Harvard Business Review, one of the
Speaker 1: top thirty CEOs in the world by Barons, and one
Speaker 1: of the top ten CEOs in the US by Glassdoor
Speaker 1: and Tim. We caught up with him to talk about
Speaker 1: his book, It's just at the heart of business leadership
Speaker 1: principles for the next era of capitalism. Safe to say
Speaker 1: things are changing, well, I think it leads to evolve
Speaker 1: right the shift if we locate it. It's clear that
Speaker 1: we're facing a multifaceted crisis, right, health crisis, economic crisis,
Speaker 1: societal crisis, systemic racism, environment, political or the all you
Speaker 1: can eat menu of challenges. And so what's the definition
Speaker 1: of madness? Carol Right doing the same thing and hoping
Speaker 1: for a different outcome. And I think I've bested by
Speaker 1: over the last eight or nine years, we've demonstrated there's
Speaker 1: a very powerful way to achieve extraordinary results by putting
Speaker 1: people and purpose at the heart of business. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a philass of fee that is particularly relevant
Speaker 1: today because I think we need to see businesses be
Speaker 1: a force for good. I think I've seen best by
Speaker 1: the power of unleashing human magic in support of that purpose,
Speaker 1: and the importance of embracing all stakeholders, including community and
Speaker 1: the environment, and treating profit as an outcome and not
Speaker 1: the goal. Even though you know, during my tenure or
Speaker 1: since I became to Seal, our share price went from
Speaker 1: eleven dollars to now between hundred and ten and h
Speaker 1: twenty sorts of a powerful for me. It's one that's
Speaker 1: very relevant today, very needed, and I thought that in
Speaker 1: writing this book, leveraging the experence I've had, you know,
Speaker 1: I could help others on the journey. So many of
Speaker 1: us on this journey right doesn't want to be on
Speaker 1: that journey, and who are eager to lead from a
Speaker 1: place of purpose and with humanity and we although it's
Speaker 1: desirable and it's hard, and I think that's with the
Speaker 1: experience I could help. Well, it's interesting you talk about
Speaker 1: you know your kids. You talk about the dinner table,
Speaker 1: how you your children talked about how excessive consumerism. I
Speaker 1: was drawn to this in the book Excessive Consumerism and
Speaker 1: waste was contributing to global warm warning. I have to say,
Speaker 1: no one calls me on the carpet like my eighteen
Speaker 1: year old about the impact things we are having on
Speaker 1: society or the things that I've done or she thinks
Speaker 1: I've done in my world and how it's not making
Speaker 1: it a good world. But they do think differently. They
Speaker 1: look at products differently, brands differently. What can we learn
Speaker 1: from a younger generation? So have to disclose something to you.
Speaker 1: My daughter went to Boundard College, same as you. Great
Speaker 1: love that of course, and she together with my son,
Speaker 1: are saying exactly the same thing. And it's a call
Speaker 1: for action. Right. We need to create a future that
Speaker 1: does not exist yet, but that needs to be more sustainable.
Speaker 1: And my experience at best bias that we can embrace
Speaker 1: all the dimensions, all of the stakeholders. So at Best Buy,
Speaker 1: for example, and we're not perfect, right, We're on this journey.
Speaker 1: We've had this recycling program right where you can bring
Speaker 1: all of your old electronics and then we'll work with
Speaker 1: partners to recycle it. It's good for the customer, it's
Speaker 1: good for us because it creates traffic to our stores,
Speaker 1: and it's good for the for the planet. Same we're
Speaker 1: working with vendors on the circular economy. Same at our
Speaker 1: flown where on the board. You know, the power industry
Speaker 1: is a big polluter, So how can we use plastic bottles.
Speaker 1: That's what graph has done Plastics recycled plastic bottle to
Speaker 1: create the the Earth's Polo shirt. So you see businesses
Speaker 1: that are embracing these principles. And we have a ticking
Speaker 1: time bomb. Love Bill Gates book right we published in February.
Speaker 1: We have thirty years to get to net zero. And
Speaker 1: I think that if we all mobilize and stop I
Speaker 1: think this excessive focus on profits. You know, we have
Speaker 1: to start with how can we create some good things
Speaker 1: in the world. How can we mobilize the human resources?
Speaker 1: People are not the problem? Right sometimes you know, turnaround?
Speaker 1: You know the advice I got you in twent twelve
Speaker 1: when I studied is cut cut cut right, Like if
Speaker 1: people are the problem, no, people are the sourced There
Speaker 1: the solution. By first week on the job, I spend
Speaker 1: it listening to frontliners, and so I think we need
Speaker 1: to think leading differently. And that's what I'm calling for,
Speaker 1: is a re foundation of business and capitalism around these
Speaker 1: principles of purpose and people at the heart of business. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a section in your book about cutting jobs as
Speaker 1: the last resort that definitely chopped out for me. Let
Speaker 1: me let me ask you something though, because you know,
Speaker 1: how would shareholders really react? Though? If you are another CEO,
Speaker 1: you know you make profits. Maybe this is the wrong
Speaker 1: word and afterthought, I mean it's hard as a publicly
Speaker 1: held company. I understand purpose, I understand e s g uh,
Speaker 1: and I do think it's becoming you know, easier to
Speaker 1: do that financially. But if you've got to make a
Speaker 1: decision between kind of doing the quote unquote right thing
Speaker 1: versus being profitable, especially if you're public, how do you
Speaker 1: do that? So I think it was three years ago
Speaker 1: Cal actually told our shareholders we was at an investor conference.
Speaker 1: He said, our purpose as a company is not to
Speaker 1: make money. It's a now it's an imperative, it's an outcome,
Speaker 1: and you guys are a very important stakeholder. So we're
Speaker 1: going to take care of you. But the way we're
Speaker 1: gonna do this is by first focusing on doing the
Speaker 1: right thing, and we're gonna work hard to then create
Speaker 1: profit as an outcome. One of the things I've learned,
Speaker 1: I think it was thirty years ago when I was
Speaker 1: at McKinsey from a kind of mind it told me
Speaker 1: there of the questions that I asked us, either or
Speaker 1: a better answered that, and to fuse the tyranny of
Speaker 1: war and embrace the power of ants. And I think
Speaker 1: our challenge as leaders it's not easy, but it's doable.
Speaker 1: That's what I've learned during my career, in particular at
Speaker 1: best Buy. You have to force yourself to find ways
Speaker 1: that our win win win. Uh. And so my view
Speaker 1: of purpose and stickholder capitalism this is not at the
Speaker 1: expense of shareholders. This is in fact how you create,
Speaker 1: you maximize, you know, performance for shareholders, but not at
Speaker 1: the detriments of other stakeholders. That's what I've learned. That's
Speaker 1: you bear Jolie really successful career in the C suite,
Speaker 1: of course, but now his mindset is changing. Is he
Speaker 1: imparts wisdom to current in future executive Carol, I I
Speaker 1: do wonder to what extent this type of thinking actually
Speaker 1: is going to stick moving forward, because look, when we
Speaker 1: talk earnings, we're talking about the top line in the
Speaker 1: bottom line, and we're talking about outlook, we're not talking
Speaker 1: about different different forms of capitalism, right, and investors are
Speaker 1: reacting to those numbers. I remember in our planning call
Speaker 1: before doing this interview, and you said, you know, I
Speaker 1: wonder if you know you put it off two shareholders
Speaker 1: and say, listen, we're going to be a better company.
Speaker 1: We're going to put purpose over profits, which means maybe
Speaker 1: we will be as profitable. How they will feel about that?
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of investors might be like, Okay, good,
Speaker 1: but I still want to see you being really profitable. Right. Look,
Speaker 1: It's it's one thing for a private company like Patagonia
Speaker 1: to do that. It's a completely different thing for a
Speaker 1: publicly traded company. Still to come on Bloomberg Business Week,
Speaker 1: we're gonna stay on this theme about how work is changing,
Speaker 1: leadership is changing. We're gonna catch up with Joanne Lublin
Speaker 1: of the Wall Street Journals. She's a Pulter Prize winning journalist.
Speaker 1: She's got a new book out on power Moms. Got
Speaker 1: to Say Tim In the last year we've seen women
Speaker 1: slide back when it comes to some of the inroads
Speaker 1: that they've made in the workplace. They are juggling a
Speaker 1: lot right now, taking care of kids, schooling kids at home,
Speaker 1: taking care of maybe elderly. It's not easy. It's not easy.
Speaker 1: We saw that data just recently in the latest jobs
Speaker 1: report that all the new jobs that came back, those
Speaker 1: went two men. Yeah, exactly. Plus how a year away
Speaker 1: from touring helped a music legend right her latest chapter,
Speaker 1: we're talking about Nancy Wilson. Yeah, she's going to join
Speaker 1: us on Bloomberg Business Week. She talks about a song
Speaker 1: that she wrote about the late Eddie Van Halen. Now
Speaker 1: life on the road to This is Bloomberg Broadcasting from
Speaker 1: the financial capital of the World, Bloomberg eleven Frio in
Speaker 1: New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg to Boston, Bloomberg
Speaker 1: one oh six one does San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty
Speaker 1: to the country Sirius XM Chado one nine team and
Speaker 1: around the globe the Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio
Speaker 1: dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week. As promise, we're
Speaker 1: going to continue talking about what's going on in the workplace.
Speaker 1: Things are changing, and that has certainly happened for women
Speaker 1: in the past year. They have been hurt disproportionately harder
Speaker 1: because of the pandemic. Joanne Lublin was The Wall Street
Speaker 1: Journal's career columnist for many years. I knew her when
Speaker 1: I worked at the Wall Street Journal. She's also an
Speaker 1: editor covering workplace issues from the c suite on down,
Speaker 1: Poulter Prize winning journalist, and she still contributes to the Journal.
Speaker 1: She's the author of two books about female business executives.
Speaker 1: Her latest is Power Moms, How Executive Mothers Navigate work
Speaker 1: in Life, all about that delicate balance that women with
Speaker 1: management aspirations are forced to deal with while raising families.
Speaker 1: And it's become that much harder, as I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: harder during the pandemic. She explained to us how her
Speaker 1: last twelve months has been that's where we started. Well,
Speaker 1: the last year has been sort of anticlimactic for me
Speaker 1: because I turned in the manuscript for this new book
Speaker 1: literally on the day before America shut down, and I
Speaker 1: had been a hermit for the prior nine months writing
Speaker 1: the book, and I thought, oh great, now I can
Speaker 1: go out and party and socialize and take some trips,
Speaker 1: and you know, then the world's kind of turned on
Speaker 1: its head. And so I've been doing what everyone else
Speaker 1: has been doing, which is basically, you know, quarantining in place.
Speaker 1: I've taken flights twice in the last year to visit
Speaker 1: my out of town grown children and grandchildren. But that's
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, interesting, and I do wonder how are
Speaker 1: you thinking about women right now? We talked about some
Speaker 1: data that showed that women dropped out of the U
Speaker 1: s labor force in April for the first time since January.
Speaker 1: It was I think initially we thought Joey and the
Speaker 1: pandemic would be maybe helpful for women, you know, finally
Speaker 1: giving them some flexibility and how they worked and took
Speaker 1: care of their families. And yet we're finding out that
Speaker 1: that's not the case necessarily. Unfortunately, that is indeed correct,
Speaker 1: and in fact, the Wall Street Journal did an analysis
Speaker 1: of US data and they concluded that they're nearly one
Speaker 1: point five million fewer working mothers in the workforce than
Speaker 1: before COVID nineteen. And this is especially hitting women hard
Speaker 1: who have school aged children. They're having a difficult time
Speaker 1: returning to work because frankly, the balance of power in
Speaker 1: the home. As much as has shifted somewhat, dad's have
Speaker 1: certainly picked up a bigger share of responsibility while everyone's
Speaker 1: been working from home, the burden is still squarely on
Speaker 1: mom's shoulders, particularly when it comes to school aged children.
Speaker 1: Is that even for younger generations of couples that it's
Speaker 1: still the case? Well overall, that's what the studies I've
Speaker 1: seen have suggested, But certainly in the women that I
Speaker 1: interviewed for the book, I saw a marked difference between generations.
Speaker 1: For this book, I interviewed women from the Baby Boom generation,
Speaker 1: my generation, to look at the first wave of women
Speaker 1: who had gotten an executive level roles in business and
Speaker 1: also had kids, And then I compared that to a
Speaker 1: similar sized group of women who were millennials and Gen
Speaker 1: xers anywhere from their early thirties to early forties. Altogether
Speaker 1: eighty six such women plus twenty five adult daughters of
Speaker 1: the boomers. And I was looking to see what had
Speaker 1: gotten better, what had stayed the same, and what had
Speaker 1: gotten worse in terms of how they navigated work and life.
Speaker 1: And to your point, yes, I did see that there
Speaker 1: were improvements among the younger generation when it comes to
Speaker 1: sharing the duties at home. But we haven't gotten all
Speaker 1: the way to the you know, goal line yet. Yeah, no, exactly.
Speaker 1: Well what's interesting is talk to me a little bit
Speaker 1: about your book. What did you set out to do.
Speaker 1: You've written books before. What was your hope to do
Speaker 1: with this? Well, my hope was to explore just that
Speaker 1: because my first book, which was called Earning It Hard
Speaker 1: One Lessons from Trailblazing Women at the Top of the
Speaker 1: business world, looked at fifty two high ranking corporate executive women,
Speaker 1: all but one of whom were baby boomers, and of
Speaker 1: those women, it turned out, had children, and among those
Speaker 1: who have become public company CEOs, the proportion was even higher.
Speaker 1: So what was their secret sauce? Well, they were trailblazers.
Speaker 1: They were the pace setters. They were the first, frankly
Speaker 1: of their generation to get into the executive suite, and
Speaker 1: in many cases did so while having children. And it
Speaker 1: just made me wonder, have things changed all that much
Speaker 1: for that younger way the women who in more recent
Speaker 1: years have become executives after having children or having children
Speaker 1: when they became executives. And when I found was that
Speaker 1: definitely things have gotten better. The Wall Street olds Joanne
Speaker 1: Lublin on her book Power Mom's Carol. Something that's happened
Speaker 1: during the pandemic is I've returned to work, but my
Speaker 1: wife has been working from home for more than the
Speaker 1: past year, and she just started going back to the office.
Speaker 1: But what I saw play out in our household over
Speaker 1: the last year has really what has played out across
Speaker 1: the country. Because she has been home, the work of
Speaker 1: the home has disproportionately fallen on her. Yeah, and listen.
Speaker 1: I think initially we thought the pandemic was going to
Speaker 1: provide women some flexibility of maybe being at home, and
Speaker 1: that it would be an advantage and help women in
Speaker 1: the workplace. But as the months played out, as the
Speaker 1: numbers showed, that wasn't the case, and that women have
Speaker 1: definitely slid back because of the pandemic. All Right, you're
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Coming up, we're gonna wrap
Speaker 1: up do something a little bit lighter with rock and
Speaker 1: roll Hall of Famer Nancy Wilson, of course, one part
Speaker 1: of the great Iconic rock band. Alright, we also get
Speaker 1: to hear some stories about the late great Eddie Van Halen.
Speaker 1: You do not want to miss it. This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovy from Bloomberg Radio. We welcome back.
Speaker 1: So that's the title track from Nancy Wilson's first ever
Speaker 1: solo album. It's entitled You and Me the track in
Speaker 1: the album. Nancy, of course, along with her sister Anne,
Speaker 1: are the iconic rock band Heart in the Rock and
Speaker 1: Roll Hall of Fame. They were touring just before the
Speaker 1: world shut down because of the pandemic, and during the
Speaker 1: past year as the world stopped, Nancy produced this new
Speaker 1: album working at our home studio. It will be released
Speaker 1: May seven. Let's get more cuss lucky for us. Joining
Speaker 1: us is singer songwriter Nancy Wilson, also author of Heart
Speaker 1: memoir Kicking and Dreaming, and she joins us on zoom
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. Nancy, so nice to have you here
Speaker 1: with us. How are you. I'm good. How are you
Speaker 1: doing over there? We're doing okay. You know, we're feeling
Speaker 1: like things are starting to open a little bit. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm in northern California now. We moved here right in
Speaker 1: time for the shutdown actually, which was a very very
Speaker 1: lucky thing for us because we got to kind of
Speaker 1: get out of this the big city, which was maybe
Speaker 1: a little more scary to be there then. But uh,
Speaker 1: now it's you know, it's been going well. There seems
Speaker 1: to be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: Um because of the vaccines obviously, and the and following
Speaker 1: all the rules and the protocol is working. So it's
Speaker 1: really a beautiful, um thing to be able to say,
Speaker 1: you know, go into inside in a restaurant and you know,
Speaker 1: with a mask of course, but and then you know,
Speaker 1: we dined for for our anniversary, and the other night
Speaker 1: we went and had dinner at a favorite restaurant and
Speaker 1: that was like really like oh my god, really exciting
Speaker 1: right right, like getting back to quote unquote normal. Um,
Speaker 1: it's interesting over the past year, a lot of musicians
Speaker 1: and it sounds like yourself, you know, once you found
Speaker 1: your footing, have been very creative and productive over the
Speaker 1: past year. Tell us about this new album that you
Speaker 1: are putting out. Well, I I started realizing, you know,
Speaker 1: after we moved in and and and we realized we
Speaker 1: might be here for a while, shut that shut into
Speaker 1: our home, not daring to go out, and you know,
Speaker 1: even touch anything or just all of the sphere at
Speaker 1: the beginning of this thing, but I did have a
Speaker 1: new space to do music in. So I got my stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, out of storage. I pulled it into my space.
Speaker 1: I got my best guitars out. I got my amps out,
Speaker 1: and my pedals and my microphones and my new interface.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine nose how to run for me,
Speaker 1: and uh, just a real simple gere and the simplest
Speaker 1: but you know, the old guitars that have the good
Speaker 1: sounding dirt in them and the old amplifiers that have
Speaker 1: the sounding dirt in them. And decided to start writing
Speaker 1: again since a lot of people have said, why aren't
Speaker 1: you gonna do it's all album? Ever, you've never done
Speaker 1: it yet, so only a live thing once, but that
Speaker 1: wasn't a studio album, and and so I started to write.
Speaker 1: And the first thing I wrote was called um We
Speaker 1: Meet Again, which I thought was a kind of a
Speaker 1: long view at the horizon of your life a little bit,
Speaker 1: and feeling like when you have somebody that you love,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be there with You're gonna be there for them,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be there for you for the for
Speaker 1: the entire ride. So Um, I thought it turned out nice,
Speaker 1: and so I kept writing, and I kept writing, um,
Speaker 1: and and then I decided to do the Rising of
Speaker 1: Bruce of Bruce Springsteen cover pretty early on because I
Speaker 1: saw how the world was suffering and how that song
Speaker 1: had been written for nine eleven originally, which I thought
Speaker 1: was really appropriate for the times, and it might be
Speaker 1: something that's maybe a little aspirational for people trying to
Speaker 1: get through all of this loss and all of the
Speaker 1: fear and all of the suffering involved in this whole
Speaker 1: this whole whip lash of experience we had to be
Speaker 1: tossed into, you know. So I think, um, it's sort
Speaker 1: of a woman's voice singing a song like that was
Speaker 1: even more kind of mothering and nurturing and and aspirational.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of where it started out, and I
Speaker 1: kept I just kept on building songs. Well, tell tell
Speaker 1: me that, because it really does feel like a very
Speaker 1: thoughtful and very deep and very reflective of what you
Speaker 1: were going through. And I think it will I think
Speaker 1: for people who listen to it will feel, um, some
Speaker 1: connection easily with things that they were going through. And
Speaker 1: one of the things I think about the past year,
Speaker 1: we lost some really incredible people in the music industry,
Speaker 1: and you have a tribute to Eddie van Hale and
Speaker 1: let's talk about that. Yeah. Well, somebody said you've got
Speaker 1: to do an instrumental song on your album, which I said, okay,
Speaker 1: you could twist my arm, you know, because I love
Speaker 1: just playing instrumental stuff because I did a lot of
Speaker 1: score scoring of movies before in the past, and it's
Speaker 1: it's a great thing to be able to transition between
Speaker 1: songwriting and just instrumental writing. So I somebody said, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll do I agreed to do it, and then I said,
Speaker 1: and not only that, I'm going to dedicate it to
Speaker 1: Eddie van Halen and then and then I was like
Speaker 1: why did I say that? Like I was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: now I've really painted myself into work arder, you know,
Speaker 1: because I have to not have to actually come up
Speaker 1: with it and figure out how to do it, and
Speaker 1: and you did. So I really avoided it. I avoided it.
Speaker 1: I've procrastinated as long as possible. I finally got my
Speaker 1: head around it when I thought about, you know, Eddie's
Speaker 1: I listened to Eddie and even I listened to Van
Speaker 1: Halen songs and I watched a bunch of his footage
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, here's something I know that I
Speaker 1: could try to do. Is it's something in a very
Speaker 1: happy key. Like his music was all very major key stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: you don't hear a lot of blueslicks, you know in
Speaker 1: Van Halen songs, you're you're positive, forth right, jubilant stuff.
Speaker 1: So that helped me figure out, like how to find
Speaker 1: the right key, the right tuning, the right um structure
Speaker 1: where you a little bit of a classical, a little
Speaker 1: bit of rock in the middle, and then a little
Speaker 1: classical at the end and not too long like in
Speaker 1: score scoring for film with anything without lyrics in it,
Speaker 1: you know, might text the listener a little bit. I
Speaker 1: kept it short and sweet just for Edward. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love the title for Edward. And I mean you guys
Speaker 1: toured together with Eddie van Halen. I mean you have
Speaker 1: a story of memory. Well, we did tour a bunch
Speaker 1: of different places and times together, um, and we always
Speaker 1: found each other hitting it off, you know, like backstage
Speaker 1: or you know at the hotel, passing in the hallway,
Speaker 1: you know, and they were like, hey, come down and
Speaker 1: have a drink with us in the hotel bar. And
Speaker 1: so it's like, okay, great, we'll get to know you.
Speaker 1: And so they were drinking Kama Kaze's and WHOA, what
Speaker 1: is that? Here? Try one? You know, They're like, whoa,
Speaker 1: how do you drink more than one of those? I'll
Speaker 1: never know. And those guys were pretty, you know, pretty
Speaker 1: heavy duty partiers, and they were pretty primal with it.
Speaker 1: They would get all tangled in some kind of an
Speaker 1: argument and then they they started hugging and going, I
Speaker 1: love you man, and they were just really primal with
Speaker 1: their party. And but they were really sweet guys. And
Speaker 1: Eddie's a sweet person who was very we were just
Speaker 1: we were kind of fond of each other because he's
Speaker 1: told me he liked my guitar, my acoustic playing, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe he even said it, you know, And
Speaker 1: and then he's I said, what about you? Why don't
Speaker 1: you play more acoustic? And he said, well, I don't
Speaker 1: have an acoustic. I made a little video story Storytellers
Speaker 1: video about it with the song but um, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have this guitar right now because you need
Speaker 1: an acoustic. So early the next morning, when it's just
Speaker 1: getting light, he calls my hotel room and plays me
Speaker 1: this gorgeous piece of instrumental acoustic music which I when
Speaker 1: I was trying to recall that as much as I
Speaker 1: possibly could do for the for Edward tribute song. So
Speaker 1: I don't know if I get close, but I got something.
Speaker 1: It's really I got it done. It's a really lovely tribute.
Speaker 1: I have to say, Um, you're incredible. I grew up
Speaker 1: with a lot of music, from Sinatra and Polkas to
Speaker 1: the Beatles, the Dead Heart, you name name it. So um,
Speaker 1: you know, music really shaped me in my family, and
Speaker 1: I can kind of feel it. I feel like when
Speaker 1: you talk about it and how it influences you and
Speaker 1: the people you met. I have to say, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite things that you and your sister did was
Speaker 1: the Kennedy Center Honors when you guys covered the leaded
Speaker 1: Zeppelin Stairway to Heaven. Uh. That must have been incredible
Speaker 1: to do with led Zeppelin looking on. Yeah, well we couldn't.
Speaker 1: Luckily we could not see them in the balcony from
Speaker 1: the stage because of the light they were tearing out that.
Speaker 1: You know, it was like that was a tough room.
Speaker 1: You know, that's all these dignitaries and really famous people
Speaker 1: and the President and the First Lady were there too,
Speaker 1: and led Zeppelin no less, so you know, we were
Speaker 1: we were very methodical in our approach to uh, focusing
Speaker 1: in on starting the song. We had to take a
Speaker 1: really really deep breath and you know, like a yoga
Speaker 1: kind of a breath. That's rock and roll Hall of
Speaker 1: Famer Nancy Wilson of Heart talking about the late great
Speaker 1: Eddie Van Halen. I love hearing about stories like on
Speaker 1: the road and you know, different musicians meeting each other
Speaker 1: and their interactions. What's also interesting is that over the
Speaker 1: past year, a lot of musicians, they were out touring,
Speaker 1: they had concerts planned, all of that had to stop.
Speaker 1: Their world was up ended like all of us, but
Speaker 1: they used that time often to produce some new music. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's something I thought a lot about during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: whether it's literature, whether it's fine art, whether it's music.
Speaker 1: Are we going to see some sort of explosion in
Speaker 1: the next few years of art that was created during
Speaker 1: this time? Yeah, I wonder about like virtual concerts, like
Speaker 1: well they continue doing some of that stuff, which would
Speaker 1: be kind of fun. Alright. That wraps up the weekend
Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for joining us. I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim Stanovik.
Speaker 1: Be sure to tune into our Bloomberg Business Week daily show.
Speaker 1: It's Monday through Friday and it starts at two pm
Speaker 1: Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Radio. You can also watch
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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg