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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android

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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Another story we've been following this week, Joe, which is

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Speaker 2: the attempt at least to freeze federal loans and grants

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Speaker 2: by the Office of Management and Budget. It was blocked

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Speaker 2: by a judge last night, that newsbreaking just before you

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Speaker 2: went to air in the late edition of Balance of Power.

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Speaker 2: And now, according to the Washington Post, the White House

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Speaker 2: has rescinded that initial war.

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Speaker 3: Which is interesting if you listened to the White House

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Speaker 3: Press briefing yesterday and then the clarifications that followed from

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Speaker 3: the likes of Stephen Miller, they were calling it a

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Speaker 3: media hoax, that it was being framed in that regard.

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Speaker 3: Unable to answer some questions about programs that would be affected.

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Speaker 3: Now the whole thing is being rescinded. So we have

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Speaker 3: a lot of questions at this out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's see if we can post some of

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Speaker 2: them to Bloomberg's Mike Dorning, who is now joining us

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Speaker 2: in our Washington, d C.

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Speaker 4: Studio.

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Speaker 2: So, Mike, obviously, this has been incredibly fast moving. There

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Speaker 2: was a lot of uproar on Capitol Hill about whether

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Speaker 2: or not the move the White House was trying to

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Speaker 2: make was actually legal, considering we're talking here about funds

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Speaker 2: that were appropriated by Congress. If the orders were sended,

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Speaker 2: does this end there?

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Speaker 5: It maybe ends this chapter. It just all feels like

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Speaker 5: the Muslim band that came out quickly when Trump came

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Speaker 5: into office, and then they kind of did something different

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Speaker 5: that was a little bit more tailored. This omb order

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Speaker 5: that came out last night. You know, I was talking

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Speaker 5: to people who administer the food stamp program and they

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Speaker 5: were that morning and they're like, well, we can't tell

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Speaker 5: you whether our stuff is frozen or not. So this

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Speaker 5: caused a lot of chaos because it hadn't sort of

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Speaker 5: run the gamut. It It might be they've rescinded it

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Speaker 5: because they're really not going to do it, or it

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Speaker 5: might be they've rescinded this order and going to take,

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Speaker 5: you know, the chaos that this caused into consideration and

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Speaker 5: do a new order that's a little more clear and

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Speaker 5: a little more targeted.

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Speaker 3: Either way, This is apparently what was needed to light

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Speaker 3: the fires for Democrats. Oh way, Jeffery is calling an

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Speaker 3: emergency caucus meeting at this hour to start drafting plans.

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Speaker 3: Here a three prong strategy to fight back. It's time,

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Speaker 3: I guess to lock arms here. For Democrats, how do

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Speaker 3: they answer it?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean they they're just rallying their troops. There's

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Speaker 5: really not that much they can do unless they get

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Speaker 5: some Republicans to go along with them. But they can

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Speaker 5: mobilize a public opinion. They can mobilize important political actors. Now,

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Speaker 5: what was happening yesterday is there's all sorts of critical services,

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Speaker 5: school lunches. You know. I talk with people who administered

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Speaker 5: the school lunch is around the country, the School Nutrition Association,

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Speaker 5: and they were saying, we don't know whether we're going

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Speaker 5: to get the reimbursements that we get, so what do

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Speaker 5: you do with your school lunch program? It hit so

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Speaker 5: many different segments of society that then they can now

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Speaker 5: mobilize them. Also, obviously President Trump and others notice, so

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Speaker 5: they probably attacking one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: So that's the Democrats that I am also struck by

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Speaker 2: the fact that Republicans don't seem to be too bothered

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Speaker 2: by Donald Trump kind of stepping on the power of

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Speaker 2: the purse, if you will, in their congressional authority to

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Speaker 2: appropriate funds. Knowing that an appropriation's battle is looming. They

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Speaker 2: have to figure out how to fund the government by

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Speaker 2: mid March. They have to figure out a budget reconciliation package.

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Speaker 2: What does this portend about the way in which they

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Speaker 2: will just be going along with whatever in terms of

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Speaker 2: government spending Donald Trump would like to see.

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Speaker 5: So there have been in the way most Republicans responded

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Speaker 5: to this was sort of saying, just you know, if

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Speaker 5: Trump does it, it's a good idea. That they were

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Speaker 5: not pushing back at all, and in fact, some people

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Speaker 5: who did push back slightly on the Republican side got

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Speaker 5: their knuckles wrapped by the White House that said, I'm

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Speaker 5: not sure that it's really going to cure these internal

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Speaker 5: divisions within the Republican Party when it comes to spending

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Speaker 5: and what they want out of the tax package. It's

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Speaker 5: quite likely in the end they will come together on that,

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Speaker 5: but there's going to be a lot more twists and turns,

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Speaker 5: and there are people on the Republican side who are

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Speaker 5: hardcore about wanting a lot of spending cuts, and there

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Speaker 5: are other people from other districts that are hardcore about

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Speaker 5: not wanting too many important services to get touched too much.

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Speaker 5: And those are inherent conflicts and it will take a

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Speaker 5: while over come them. In this Republican retreat, didn't look

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Speaker 5: like they got that far on.

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Speaker 3: That or anywhere. According to Marjorie Taylor Green, after two

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Speaker 3: days at our House Republican Winter Retreats, she writes, we

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Speaker 3: still do not have a plan on budget reconciliation, and

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Speaker 3: our speaker and his team have not offered one. She says,

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Speaker 3: that's not even a one or two bill framework, even

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Speaker 3: though Donald Trump literally told us here he doesn't care.

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Speaker 3: So is it not Mike Johnson's job now to answer

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Speaker 3: with the plan?

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Speaker 5: Mike Johnson has to come up with something. But remember

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Speaker 5: Mike Johnson did have a plan. It was one bill,

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Speaker 5: and John Thune had a plan. It's two bills.

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Speaker 3: Arm wrestled.

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Speaker 5: As the House and the Senate have different views on this.

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Speaker 5: You know, there is a party leader that sort of

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Speaker 5: outranks the two of them, and he didn't want to

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Speaker 5: take a side on this. So I think that Mike

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Speaker 5: Johnson is especially careful about not alienating too many Republicans

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Speaker 5: because his position is so tenuous that he's got to

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Speaker 5: just wait and work it out slowly.

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Speaker 2: That one vote margin is a killer, Yeah, no doubt.

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Speaker 3: Marjorie Taylor Green writes, just get started doing something which

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Speaker 3: might hit home for a lot of lawmakers at Washington

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Speaker 3: right now. Mike Dorning, thank you so much reporting for Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

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Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg. Eleven thirty.

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Speaker 3: Confirmation hearings for Donald Trump's selections to fill out the

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Speaker 3: cabinet the President, of course, choosing Howard Lutnick for Commerce

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Speaker 3: and also RFK Junior for Health and Human Services. Our

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Speaker 3: FK Junior trying to get to some of the criticism

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Speaker 3: that he anticipated in answering questions when it comes to food.

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Speaker 3: For instance, by the way, said he supports the polio vaccine,

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Speaker 3: supports other vaccine measles. Yes, And he said he does

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Speaker 3: not want to take people's food away from them. Cue

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Speaker 3: the Big Max. Here's what he said.

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Speaker 6: I don't want to take food away from anybody. If

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Speaker 6: you like a cheese McDonald's, jeez Bergger coke, which my

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Speaker 6: boss loves, you should be able to get them. If

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Speaker 6: you want to eat Hostess Dwinkies, you should be able

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Speaker 6: to do that. But you should know what the impacts

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Speaker 6: are on your family and on your health.

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Speaker 3: As we distill what we heard from RFK Junior and

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Speaker 3: of course the senators on the Finance Committee, we welcome

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Speaker 3: Lisa Jarvis to the program, columnist for Bloomberg Opinion covering biotech, healthcare,

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Speaker 3: of the pharma industry, everything that we've been talking about,

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Speaker 3: and clearly a skeptic. Lisa, welcome back. The headline on

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Speaker 3: your column today says it all. RFK Junior is changing

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Speaker 3: his tune. Don't all for it. He did speak in

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Speaker 3: softer tones, if you will, about vaccines, but of course

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Speaker 3: many of the Democratic senators primarily were replaying comments that

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Speaker 3: he had made in podcasts. There's a long list of

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Speaker 3: comments that he's made about vaccine policy. Are you looking

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Speaker 3: at this any differently now that you've heard him speak.

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Speaker 4: You know, thank you for having me. I'm not. I

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Speaker 4: think what he was doing today was trying to take

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Speaker 4: a strategy that he's taken in the past by positioning

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Speaker 4: himself as not being anti vaccine but pro vaccine safety.

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Speaker 4: You heard him say this, I support vaccines. The only

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Speaker 4: thing I want is good science. What he's trying to

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Speaker 4: do here is suggest that the science that exists on

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Speaker 4: our vaccines isn't sound, when in fact it is. It's

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Speaker 4: a strategy that sounds really reasonable and I think can

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Speaker 4: persuade people, but you know, allows him to talk about

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Speaker 4: this as if he's not trying to take anything away

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Speaker 4: or couldn't have a deleterious effect on public health. So

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Speaker 4: it didn't change my mind. We'll see what it does

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Speaker 4: with senators. I think that he didn't do a great

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Speaker 4: job with trying to convince anyone if those weren't his views.

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Speaker 2: Well, when he says things like I'm not trying to

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Speaker 2: take anything away, can you just speak to us, Lisa

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Speaker 2: about the actual power he would have if confirmed to

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Speaker 2: be HHS secretary to take things away or are we

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Speaker 2: just talking about recommendations changing, for example, not actually the

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Speaker 2: inability to access these vaccines?

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Speaker 4: Right while actually changing the recommendations would put these vaccines

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Speaker 4: out of reach for folks. So as head oft HHS,

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Speaker 4: he would be responsible for picking the makeup for a committee.

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Speaker 4: And it gets kind of wonky here, and this is

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Speaker 4: where the public might not see that he is actually

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Speaker 4: sort of crafting policy around vaccines behind the scenes. But

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Speaker 4: he's responsible for the makeup of a committee that just

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Speaker 4: makes the recommendations for what vaccines we take, who should

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Speaker 4: take them, how often we take them. And so that

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Speaker 4: vaccine got that committee got mentioned just sort of in

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Speaker 4: the background a few times today, but right before we

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Speaker 4: came on the air, he meant himself and talked about

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Speaker 4: how ninety percent of the people on that committee had

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Speaker 4: conflict of interest and so he wants to get that

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Speaker 4: out to me. That says that he may change the

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Speaker 4: makeup of that committee. The reason that matters is because

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Speaker 4: that committee's recommendations shape actually how vaccines are covered by insurers.

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Speaker 4: It also can embolden states to pass laws that make

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Speaker 4: it easier for parents to, for example, get an exemption

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Speaker 4: from childhood vaccines. All of that is coming at a

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Speaker 4: time when we're already seeing a drop off in childhood

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Speaker 4: vaccination rates and increasing levels of hesitancy.

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Speaker 6: In the US.

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Speaker 3: Yet Lisa, we keep hearing he likely has the votes,

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Speaker 3: this likely will be the next health secretary. So doesn't

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Speaker 3: it come down to what Donald Trump wants? We heard

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Speaker 3: this repeatedly from RFK Junior and from Howard Lutnik today,

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Speaker 3: I serve at the pleasure of the president. Does Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump want to question Operation warp speed some of the

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Speaker 3: vaccines that emerged from his own administration? Does he want

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Speaker 3: to stop eating Big Max for instance? Aren't these the

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Speaker 3: questions that we should be asking?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 4: And I agree with you, And there are a few

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Speaker 4: moments in today's hearing that you know, raised alarm bells

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Speaker 4: for me. And you know, not to shift topics, but

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Speaker 4: you know a lot of the questions had to do

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Speaker 4: with abortion access and the abortion pill MITHI pristone, which

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Speaker 4: has been you know, of course, a point of contention

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Speaker 4: ever since Roe fell. And you know one thing that

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Speaker 4: concerned me was that RFK repeatedly said that he was

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Speaker 4: just asked by Trump. He hadn't decided. Trump hadn't decided

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Speaker 4: his position on a MEPhI pristone, but he asked RFK

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Speaker 4: to review the science. So we know he's going to

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Speaker 4: be using the same kind of lens and analytical mind

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Speaker 4: that has given him the wrong conclusion on vaccines and

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Speaker 4: applying that to things like methi pristone. So that's where.

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Speaker 2: He sent to me, Well, we've already seen the mithi

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Speaker 2: pristone question in the courts as well, Lisa, to what

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Speaker 2: extent could litigation act as a check on some things

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Speaker 2: that the Trump administration, through HHS and presumably a Secretary

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Speaker 2: Kennedy would would try to do.

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Speaker 4: Well. I think one thing that he could do that

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Speaker 4: you know, I think the courts would not be a

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Speaker 4: check on is that you know, he would of course

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Speaker 4: would oversee FDA. FDA has rolled back some of the

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Speaker 4: restrictions on access to mithi pristone. I think appropriately. The

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Speaker 4: science shows that it's safe to do.

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Speaker 5: So.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the questions today was around reintroducing those

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Speaker 4: same restrictions that would essentially cut off telehealth access to

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Speaker 4: mify Perstone. That has been an important way that women

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Speaker 4: in states with bands have been able to get the drug,

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Speaker 4: whether within their own state or by traveling to another

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Speaker 4: state just over the border. So that would be a

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Speaker 4: real problem. It could help could prevent access to women

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Speaker 4: who live in states where abortion is legal. So I

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Speaker 4: think there are ways that that could really inhibit access

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Speaker 4: to abortion. It would be, you know, sort of like

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Speaker 4: using an FDA to kind of re prevent access to everyone,

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Speaker 4: not just people who live in states with bands.

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Speaker 3: Just quickly, Lisa, while you're with us. There seems to

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Speaker 3: be this take in Washington and among many Democrats, well,

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Speaker 3: we don't like this vaccine stuff, but hey, if he

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Speaker 3: gets the food dies out of the junk cereal, maybe

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Speaker 3: that's a good thing that he can bring to the table.

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Speaker 3: Do you expect that will happen? As he discussed scrutinizing

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Speaker 3: the chemical additives in our food supply, what will he

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Speaker 3: do with them?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I love the idea of making America healthy again,

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Speaker 4: if we are doing it in a way that makes sense,

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Speaker 4: I think again, what concerns me is his ability to

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Speaker 4: analyze what the actual root cause of the problem is.

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Speaker 4: He mentioned in the hearing today that you know chronic

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Speaker 4: diseases and that you know no one is working on

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Speaker 4: them in the government. All you need to do is

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Speaker 4: look at the NIH budget to see that that's an

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Speaker 4: intense area of research in clinical investigation. So you know,

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Speaker 4: I think it's a point of common ground, but senators

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Speaker 4: should be asking themselves whether he has the right strategies

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Speaker 4: to actually improve our health, and I worry that he

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Speaker 4: does not.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Lisa Jarvis, great to have you today. She's

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Speaker 2: a Bloomberg opinion columnists covering biotech, healthcare, and the pharmaceutical industry,

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Speaker 2: joining us here on Balance of Power.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make

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Speaker 3: sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify,

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Speaker 3: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at Noontimeeastern at

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot com.