1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord. 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: crushing weight that was. 13 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: happen to somebody and that's the first thing we said, 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But. 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 3: They can. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Ronful 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today we have a very unusual, 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 3: amazing group of guests. I have the honor of having 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: the distinguished Professor of Government and Law, Mark Howard on 21 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 3: the show. And Mark's been on before, and that's what 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 3: I want to say. Welcome back to Ronfak. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 4: It's great to be back, Jason. Thanks for having me, and. 24 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: This time he brought back up with him is one 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: of his star students in the pre law class at 26 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 3: Georgetown that he teaches with Marty Tankcliffe. So, Jessica Scarato, 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: I'm glad you're here, Thanks for. 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 4: Coming, Thanks for having me Jason and. 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: Calling in soon will be an incredible man, John Moss 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: who has been incarcerated for almost four decades for a 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: crime he most obviously did not commit. So we're looking 32 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: forward to get his call. Just any minute now. 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 5: Hello, you have a call from John Mossler and Innate 34 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 5: at not all the Correctional Complex. This call will be 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 5: recorded and subject to monitoring at any time. 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: John, I'm sorry where you are, but it's good to 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: have you on the air with us and give the 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: public some idea of what's really going on in this 39 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: terrible case and in this crazy system that we have. So, John, 40 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 3: I want to go back to the beginning. You grew 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 3: up in Cleveland, right, Yeah? And what was that like? 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: Did you have a happy childhood? Was it difficult? Can 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: you just give us a painted little picture of what 44 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: your upbringing was like? 45 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 6: Well it was it was a good upbringing. I'll come 46 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 6: up will both parents at home and both working parents 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 6: and I have two brothers, two sisters. I grew up. 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 3: Will you know what did your parents do well? 49 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 6: My mother she worked in the transportation of patients at 50 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 6: the Cleveland Prennick Hospital in my father he worked out 51 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 6: Cleveland Builders. You know, my parents was well providers. They 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 6: took care of all of us. 53 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: So then you ended up in West Virginia, which was 54 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: the worst place you could have possibly been, as it happens, 55 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 3: but you had no way of knowing that. But you 56 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 3: had you had family in West Virginia. Is that what 57 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: you were doing there? 58 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, my father's grandparents lived here in West Virginia. It 59 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 6: was the reason that I had come here. You know, 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 6: I wouldn't say I was the best kid growing up. 61 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 6: You know, I gave my parents, you know, a hard time, 62 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 6: and you know, they thought that coming to West Virginia 63 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 6: might do me some good. And you know, my grandparents 64 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 6: they needed help. We had a little farm there in 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 6: Saint Albans, and you know I worked in the farm 66 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 6: and helped my my grandfather out around here. And you know, 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 6: I started going to school there here in West Virginia. 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 6: It was because my grandparents needed a little help around 69 00:03:58,480 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 6: the houses. 70 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: You know, come to Western Junior, and of course that 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: was where this tragedy took place. And it really is 72 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: a tragedy what happened. And it's a tragedy on a 73 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: lot of levels, because not only was the entire family 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: brutally gruesomely murdered, and not only was the actual killer 75 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 3: allowed to walk free. But of course what's happened to 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 3: you is just an unimaginable fate that you've been locked 77 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 3: up for almost four decades now for a crime that 78 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 3: everybody knew from the beginning who actually did it. And 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 3: this is where I want to bring Mark and Jessica 80 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: into the conversation, because obviously they've been doing some terrific 81 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: work on trying to get you finally out and home 82 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: where you belong. So Mark, how the hell did this happen? 83 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 4: So this case came to my attention about six months 84 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 4: ago when I was starting to teach a class with 85 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 4: Marty Tankliffe about wrongful convictions, and we were looking at 86 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 4: cases of wrongful convictions, and I talked to Brian Ferguson, 87 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: who himself is an ex Hoonnery and who's a student 88 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 4: of mine of Georgetown, and Brian said, wait till you 89 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 4: hear about this case about John Moss, it is surreal 90 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 4: and he kind of talked me through it. I talked 91 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 4: to Jimmy Gardner and realized about the friendship, which added 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 4: a whole dimension to this. And the more I learned, 93 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 4: the more I realize we have to take on this case. 94 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 4: And so we have a team of three students who've 95 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 4: been working on it, and Jessica's here to represent them, 96 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 4: and I'll let her tell a little bit more about 97 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 4: their experience as they learned about the case. But it's 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 4: something to think about. Thirty eight years, it's just an 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 4: astronomical amount of time. But also the fact that from 100 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 4: day one, literally day one, we knew who committed these 101 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: murders and we have no idea how on earth John 102 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 4: Moss ever got connected to this. 103 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: Well, Jessica, let's go back to the murders themselves, because 104 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: this is an innocent family. It's almost like a Manson 105 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: style killing, right, This is how terrible this was. So 106 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 3: can you take us through that tragedy that happened that 107 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: John ultimately was turned into a scapegoat. 108 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 7: For absolutely so is A triple homicide took place in 109 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 7: Saint Albans, West Virginia, which is right outside of Charleston, 110 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 7: in nineteen seventy nine, December of nineteen seventy nine. It 111 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 7: was a mother and her two children. The children were 112 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 7: seven and four years old. They were brutally slain. The 113 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 7: mother was stabbed multiple times. Both children were hanged in 114 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 7: some way and suffocated. One of the children was drowned, 115 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 7: the other was hanged over the door. And juxtaposed that 116 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 7: with the fact that it was almost Christmas. It was December, 117 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 7: so you have a Christmas tree, and then on the 118 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 7: other side of the crime scene photo you'll see a 119 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 7: child hanging over the door. So it is it extremely intimate, passionate, 120 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 7: just gruesome, horrific killing. 121 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 3: And this case is so bizarre because the father confessed 122 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: on the spot pretty much ver he walked through in 123 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: great detail and took the police to the house and explained. 124 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: And again this is where it goes to like, I mean, 125 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: a monster, this guy's a monster. He said that he 126 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: drowned the one child because a kid liked to swim. 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: He hung the other one because she liked to swing right, 128 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 3: And I forgot what he said about the mom, But 129 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: I mean, when you get to that, it's like, oh, 130 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: my god, this is really macabre, and one would think 131 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: that law enforcement would be interested in getting an individual 132 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: like that off the street where he can't do that 133 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: to any other innocent people. But what the hell happened? 134 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: How did John end up? Why is he on the 135 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: phone with us right now instead of being raising grandkids 136 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: or whatever he's supposed to be doing. 137 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a great question. 138 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 6: Yeah no, And I've been stuck with that for thirty 139 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 6: eight years. And you know, and they kill me. It 140 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 6: goes back to my uncle, my uncle Alton, who lives 141 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 6: here in West Virginia. It was something about him, but 142 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 6: I didn't find out a few years later that he 143 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 6: was the one that told law enforcement there's a John Moster, 144 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 6: and you know, he might know something about the class. 145 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 6: And you know, I was dumbfounded when the troopers said 146 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 6: that on the stand. And to this day, I don't know, 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 6: and if anybody else know, they haven't told me yet. 148 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 6: Why he told police that I knew something about these friends. 149 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 6: I wasn't there. I knew nothing about the family. Besides, 150 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 6: they lived in my uncle's hotel and later moved into 151 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 6: one of my relatives houses. I see the kids in 152 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 6: the yard, they're playing, But these are kids, Why would 153 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 6: anybody want to do that? And they try to say 154 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 6: the reason of being robbery. These are people that didn't 155 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 6: have anything, the furniture and everything that they had. My 156 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 6: fam began to these folks, and why would I pick 157 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 6: one of the poorest families in the neighborhood to. 158 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 3: Rob right, that's crazy. And why would you steal furniture 159 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 3: that you already gave them? That's completely bizarre. And this 160 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: is so nuts, right, And let's go back to you Mark, 161 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: what the hell happened? Right? Because here you had a 162 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 3: case that was over and shut. Yep, right easy, this one, 163 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 3: this one came with instructions. Right, you have the killer 164 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 3: going here it is. Here's what I did. Let me 165 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: walk you through it. He was almost like he was 166 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: proud of. 167 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 4: It, that's right. And he also apparently had been abusive 168 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 4: towards his wife. He'd said, I'd never wanted to have 169 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 4: a family, never wanted to have kids. It all made sense. 170 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 4: It was done, and we still don't know this, and 171 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 4: we'll never know because he's no longer alive. He did 172 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,239 Speaker 4: remarry the husband, he did remarry. There are some allegations 173 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 4: that he was abusive towards his second wife. But he's 174 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 4: no longer alive. But we don't know why the police 175 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: let him go. John has no idea. I mean, we've 176 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 4: all tried to think of every possible angle. It defies logic, 177 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 4: common sense, common decency obviously. 178 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: I mean you'd think too, even if a prosecutor is 179 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 3: so morally bankrupt that they don't care about locking up 180 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: an innocent guy, or this one't involve children, right, These 181 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: are innocent children that were slaughtered in a gruesome manner, 182 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 3: and so anybody would want, any citizen, any human being, 183 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: would want that killer locked up forever to keep society safe. 184 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 4: But it gets even worse because there was essentially a 185 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 4: cover up that came into play once they somehow got John. Now, 186 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 4: they picked up John, who was incarcerated on another charge 187 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 4: unrelated at age seventeen, and brought him in and beat 188 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 4: the crap out of him and got what's probably a 189 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 4: classic case of a false confession with physical violence, threatening him, 190 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 4: threatening to kill him, and at some point he broke down, 191 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 4: and that led to his conviction and the fact that 192 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 4: it has stuck for all of these decades. 193 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: So they replaced a true confession with a false compression. 194 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 4: That nothing matched the crime scene. It's absolutely clear that 195 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 4: the person who made that false confession, John knew nothing 196 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 4: about the crime. And there's more in terms of the 197 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 4: medical examiner changing his report. The medical examiner initially filed 198 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: a report that stated that the killings took place at 199 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 4: a certain time when the husband was home, and eleven 200 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 4: months later, when they picked up John, for reasons that 201 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 4: we still barely understand had to do with his uncle 202 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 4: calling in and saying that John was somehow involved, the 203 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,479 Speaker 4: medical examiner changed the time of death by a substantial 204 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 4: number of hours, something that we've talked to medical experts 205 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 4: and medical examiners and they say they've never seen something 206 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 4: like this before. So that suggests there was a much 207 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 4: bigger cover up that was involved. 208 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 3: Jessica, You've been diving deep into this case now, and 209 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 3: I've been so impressed with the work that the Georgetown 210 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: pre law students have been doing, you and your team 211 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: as well as the other teams. So do you have 212 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 3: any theory Do you think that there was some connection 213 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 3: between the actual killer and the authorities that they would 214 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 3: have wanted to protect him, and so he was a 215 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: ups driver. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. 216 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 7: Yeah, Initially we looked for that kind of connection, something 217 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 7: that would explain why they made this very sudden switch 218 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 7: in focus from the person that we believe is the 219 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 7: true killer and the person who all the evidence points 220 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 7: to to John. And it's interesting because there had been 221 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 7: previous allegations by the father and husband that his confession 222 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 7: was coerced. He claimed that there's very little evidence to 223 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 7: actually support that. Of course, we don't have the video 224 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 7: recorded interrogation itself, but a judge upheld that confession as voluntary, 225 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 7: so they were picking a jury for his trial. The 226 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 7: judge upheld his confession as voluntary. That exact same day, 227 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 7: the West Virginia State Police dispatched troopers to Ohio to 228 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 7: pick up John. So it's very unclear why when you 229 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 7: have somebody who all the evidence points to, who has 230 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 7: confessed that confession is upheld as voluntary in a court 231 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 7: of law, you're picking a jury, why all of a 232 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 7: sudden you would go seek out another suspect, even on 233 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 7: a random tip from a person in the community, right Like, 234 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 7: that doesn't make a lot of sense. And to me, 235 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 7: there's no way that that isn't suspicious. There's no way 236 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 7: that that isn't a miscarriage of justice. All the evidence, 237 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 7: all of the science point to this one particular person, 238 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 7: and they're obviously seeking out for some reason that I 239 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 7: don't know another person. 240 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's hard not to think. You have 241 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 3: West Virginia, which may be the whitest state in America, right, 242 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 3: and you have initially the confession of the white male 243 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: suspect replaced by the false confession of a black male suspect. 244 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there, but it 245 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 3: sounds like that may have had some role in it. Again, 246 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: which impossible to figure out these motives because it doesn't 247 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: make any damn sense. Okay, so let's go back to it. 248 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: So John, you get picked up and brought back to 249 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: West Virginia. What's going through your mind? 250 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 6: Well, we can go back farther than that. When I 251 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 6: first met these troopers, I was in the detention home 252 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 6: on the unrelated charge, and these two troopers the chief 253 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 6: investigators of a triple homicide. They come to Ohio while 254 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 6: I was in the detention home to talk to me 255 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 6: about these murders, and they wanted a sample of my blood, 256 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 6: and I told them I didn't have anything to hide, 257 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 6: and if they wanted, you know, they pricked my fingers, 258 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 6: squeezed samp of my blood on a cotton swath. If 259 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 6: there was a lady attorney visiting, another client came over 260 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 6: to ask the officers what were they doing, and the 261 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 6: troopers said they had talked to my attorneys in Ohio 262 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 6: and it was okay, and they would be over there 263 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 6: later to talk to me about it. The lady attorney 264 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 6: advised them that they should come back when my attorney 265 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 6: was there. So when my attorney finally got there, he said, 266 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 6: never talked to any West Virginia troopers about coming over 267 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 6: and getting the sample of my blood, and he went 268 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 6: to court. Supposedly he got the blood back, but years later, 269 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 6: come to find out this sample of blood that these 270 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 6: troopers took while I was in the detention home made 271 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 6: it back to West Virginia. But my lawyers were telling 272 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 6: me he was able to get the sample of blood 273 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 6: back before these troopers left Ohio. But come to find 274 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 6: out they took this blood supposedly, and they gave it 275 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 6: to Fred Zane and then I didn't find anything out 276 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 6: about into the Zain investigation, and that's when it come 277 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 6: out about kim fabricating and falsifying reports and everything. And 278 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 6: this sample was never disclosed to any of my attorneys 279 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 6: doing my first trial, knowing my second trial. But that's 280 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 6: how I come to meet these. 281 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: Two troopers and Mark. Talk about Fred Zayne for a second, 282 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: because this is one of the most notorious figures in 283 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: American if there was a hall of fame of malfeasance 284 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 3: in the court system, and malfeas is not a strong 285 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: enough word because it's actually criminal activity that he was 286 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: engaged in. But if there was a guy who was 287 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: one of the worst framers of innocent people in the country, 288 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 3: he'd be up there, right. 289 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 4: There are so many layers of misconduct in this. First 290 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 4: of all, why are they coming and taking a blood 291 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: sample from a seventeen year old in another state? Right, 292 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 4: so raises the possibility what do they do with that blood? 293 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 4: They may have actually planted it at the crime scene. 294 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: Then you've got the person coming in to analyze that 295 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 4: is Fred Zayne, who's been found in at least one 296 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 4: hundred and forty cases to have falsified blood and other 297 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 4: forensic evidence, and probably they're countless more that we don't 298 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 4: even know about. So here we have John who gets 299 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 4: convicted based on a false confession that the police beat 300 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 4: out of him. That's classic and completely unreliable. And this 301 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: so called blood evidence that had the testimony of somebody 302 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 4: who perjured himself and falsified evidence and as a criminal 303 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 4: in every respect. And that's the totality of the evidence 304 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 4: against John. And so what has unfortunately blocked John from 305 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 4: having a chance of coming out is that Zayne at 306 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 4: the time was not the head of the office. He 307 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 4: did all of the work in John's case, but there 308 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: was a supervising person and even though that supervisor said 309 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: I just signed off on everything Fred Zaye did, the 310 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: fact that Fred Zaye wasn't the supervisor he became the 311 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: supervisor a few years later, means that courts have rejected 312 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 4: John's challenge to his conviction based on the work of 313 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 4: Fred Zaane. They're somehow saying that it wasn't actually a 314 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 4: Zay case, even though Zayn did all of the work, 315 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 4: because there was a supervisor who just was a rubber stamp. 316 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 4: And so there are a lot of people who've gotten 317 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 4: exonerated who were so called Zain cases, and Jimmy Gardner 318 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 4: is one of them. But unfortunately they're not letting John 319 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: join this group even though he clearly belongs in it. 320 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 4: And that's just outrageous. 321 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 3: And let's not forget the fact that fred Zaye himself 322 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 3: was convicted, right, that's hard, right in this system for 323 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: the idea that a chief stroologist would actually be convicted 324 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 3: and sentenced to four to twelve years at prison himself. 325 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: So we have the actual real criminal is the one 326 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: who falsely testifies and inculpates an innocent guy, which is 327 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: John who's on the phone with us. Now it's all 328 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 3: completely backwards. And what about the public defender? I mean, John, 329 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 3: were you? I mean it sounds like just from the 330 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 3: little bit that you've told us already, that this public 331 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: defender you had was not up for the task. 332 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 6: Well, the first attorney I had in my first trail, 333 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 6: he was a Pase attorney. My parents hired him. I 334 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 6: didn't have a crump defender into my second trial. But 335 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 6: everybody took what was fred Zane was doing being the gospel. 336 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 6: You know, nobody went back to check anything after my 337 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 6: conviction in eighty four. My attorney in my first trial, 338 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 6: he made a statement in the newspaper during the Inzane 339 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 6: investigations that he had talked to one of the jurors 340 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 6: on the elevator and the juror told him that you 341 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 6: had everything covered, but you just could not explain the blood. 342 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 6: You could not explain that blood. But the lawyer even then, 343 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 6: nobody would go back to check out Jane's credentials, to 344 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 6: check out any of the testing. They just took his 345 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 6: word as being the gospel. My second trial attorney, he'd 346 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 6: done nothing. He didn't do no investigative work in trying 347 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 6: to find out if the blood was reliable anything. Sped 348 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 6: of West Virginia wanted to do DNA tests and fred 349 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 6: Zane they called him back from Texas during my second trial. 350 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 6: And when Zane done tests in my second trial, he 351 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 6: destroyed everything. And you know, I was not able to 352 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 6: have any other lawyer, any other investigators, any other doctor, 353 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 6: sciences or whatever to review any of fred Zane's work 354 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 6: when he was doing the DNA and he just destroyed anything. 355 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 6: And that's why today I don't have the evidence to 356 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 6: try to test to find out who is the real perpetrator. 357 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 6: Fred Zane knew who he was because fred Zane he 358 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 6: had to blood evidence and when he found out it 359 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 6: wasn't me, he destroyed everything. And my lawyers they dropped 360 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 6: the ball in the early years of mind cancelations of 361 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 6: questioning the terrology work in my case. 362 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: And Jessica, as a pre law student and soon to 363 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 3: be lawyer, you didn't get into Georgetown without having a 364 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: lot of active brain cells, right, And obviously you have 365 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: a big heart. But when you hear this, it must 366 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: pain you to think about these lawyers just basically doing nothing, 367 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 3: I mean, not helping their client. It's almost like the 368 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 3: doctor just letting somebody die. Right. How does this sit 369 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 3: with you and thinking back on it, what would you 370 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 3: have done differently? 371 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 6: Yeah? 372 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 7: Absolutely? And John, for that matter, his attorney's never looked 373 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 7: for the blood evidence. That's something that we think is 374 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 7: insane about this case is that the assumption that every 375 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 7: attorney from the revelation that Zane had been contaminating evidence 376 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 7: onward has never actually gone to the West Virginia crime 377 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 7: lab and looked for the blood evidence. And the assumption 378 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 7: was that it was destroyed. But we don't know that. 379 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 7: And in all five Zane related Kanawa County exonerations, which 380 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 7: is where John was incarcerated, they had found the blood 381 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 7: evidence after the fact, after having assumed that it was destroyed. 382 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 7: They had found it later. 383 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 4: So it might still be there in other way, So. 384 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 7: It might still be there in other words, and nobody 385 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 7: had looked for it. And obviously it's much harder to 386 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 7: try to find it now than it was when all 387 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 7: these revelations came out in the late nineteen eighties early 388 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 7: nineteen nineties. And so it's so terrifying and disheartening to 389 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 7: me that why would you not look for that? 390 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: That's crazy And it's so crazy too. I mean, John, 391 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: when you were first arrested, who is President Jimmy Carter? 392 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: So long ago? I'm just trying to give the audience 393 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: a sense of how long. 394 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was Jimmy. 395 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, Jimmy Carter. I name. Some people were listening won't 396 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 3: even recognize it's so long ago, right, I mean, so yeah, 397 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 3: it's just it's so it's so devastating, I mean, and listen, 398 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 3: more power to you. I mean, the fact that you're 399 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: still here and still standing strong and still fighting is 400 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: a great testament to your character. And so I salute 401 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: you for that. And you know, I just want you. 402 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 6: To know you can never give up. You know, there's 403 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 6: so many things I haven't done, and the one thing 404 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 6: I want to do is have control over my own life. 405 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 6: I'm fifty five years old and not once have I 406 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 6: been able to decide or what John Mall should do 407 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 6: or what John Mom can't do. 408 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 3: John, you've been in for thirty eight years. Can you 409 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: tell us what is the worst thing that's happened since 410 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: you've been in prison? And are there any bright spots? 411 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: Was there any moment of hope or redemption that you 412 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: found while you were in there over all these years? 413 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 6: Well, the worst thing that ever happened was the loss 414 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 6: of family. You know, my mother passed. She was she 415 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 6: was my rock. You know, she missed everything. You know, 416 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 6: it was because of her that I was able to fight. 417 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 6: I kept to fight. Then I lose my father, my 418 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 6: two brothers. I lost over half my family. That's the 419 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 6: pain of being in prison, of losing the loved one 420 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 6: and you can't show any support to the rest of 421 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 6: your family. That's what makes time so hard. And the 422 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 6: fact that you're innocent and these people are doing what 423 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 6: they're doing to you. They won't hear your cage. That's 424 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 6: the hard thing about it. And my hope is when 425 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 6: I see other guys, guys that I grew up with 426 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 6: in prison, they make it out there and start doing 427 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 6: things like what Brian and Jimmy are doing. That's what 428 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 6: gives me hope that the door's not completely closed on me, 429 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 6: that I can still get out there, and you know, 430 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 6: I can live the life that I've dreamed of that 431 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 6: I've always wanted to have, maybe have a family, you know, 432 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 6: them guys that would give me hope. And then you know, 433 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 6: and what's happening now in Georgetown, Oh man, I'm just 434 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 6: blown over. And I tell Jessica, Maddie and Alex all 435 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 6: the time, and Mark whenever I'm talking to him that, 436 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 6: you know, I love them for what they're doing for me. 437 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 6: But never, never in all my life, in all the 438 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 6: years that I've been locked up, that I ever thought 439 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 6: that I would get what I am getting right now. 440 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 6: I did not know there were still people out there 441 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 6: that would do the things that they are doing them. 442 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 6: I didn't know this, and for them to do what 443 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 6: they're doing, it's phenomenal. I mean, this is just unbelievable. 444 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 6: And I love them. I mean, I'm gonna be in 445 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 6: their life for the rest of my life. You know, 446 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 6: whether they walk me or not. I'm about them, you know, 447 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 6: but you know these are the people that's helping me 448 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 6: with my home. 449 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: Well, I can say, John, and I know I'm speaking 450 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 3: for Mark and Jessica that when you get out and 451 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: we're going to get you out, you'll have a new 452 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 3: family and we're all going to be here to back 453 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 3: you up and support you any way that we can. 454 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 3: We can't replace the ones you've lost, but you know 455 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: we'll do everything we can both to get you out 456 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: and then to help you when you do get out, 457 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: and I know you'll be successful and you have a 458 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 3: chance on the outside to accomplish all those things that 459 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 3: you missed out on. So thank you. And I think 460 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 3: we jump to the trial itself, because that's got to 461 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: be the worst day of your life, where that verdict 462 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 3: was read and you were and you were convicted of 463 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: a crime you did not commit and sentenced to life 464 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: in prison. How did you deal with it? 465 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 6: Well, you know, I was dumbfounded. What I could think 466 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 6: about is my family. What I'm going to say to 467 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 6: my family, Say to my mother because you know, she 468 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 6: had high hopes that I was be able to prove 469 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 6: my innocence. Because my family is in Cleveland. You know, 470 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 6: I was there alone. I think one of my cousins, 471 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 6: he might have been there, but I just felt alone. 472 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 6: You know, there was nobody there. The only thing was 473 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 6: around me is a bunch of white faces. There's nobody 474 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 6: that judged the jury, the lawyers, everybody. You know. I 475 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 6: just sat there in that quarter alone. It was it 476 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 6: was devastating. Here. I was convicted of a crime that 477 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 6: I had nothing to do with, and they lewis and 478 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 6: for some reason, they want to put me away for 479 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 6: the rest of my life. And I was dumbfounded over 480 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 6: my second trial. You know, I just knew. I knew 481 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 6: that I was going to win this, this was my 482 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 6: second trial. But then I got to thinking about all 483 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 6: the things that the attorney didn't do, and it just 484 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 6: it was just a heavy weight. It was a heavyweight, 485 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 6: and it's just it's just it's hard to describe, you know, 486 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 6: what they've done. And you know, I had high hopes 487 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 6: that I would get back in there and I would 488 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 6: prove my innocence. But it has been over two decades 489 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 6: since my last trial, and I haven't given up. I 490 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 6: continue to fight with the help of you know, I 491 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 6: called sharpshooters in here because they know this law in 492 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 6: and out. And with the help of a few inmates, 493 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 6: you know, I was able to get back in court. 494 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 6: I even had one of West Virginia top lawyers, Lonnie Simmons, 495 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 6: went to my father again, which I hated, for help 496 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 6: and getting legal representation. And it didn't know the way 497 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 6: we thought it was. Lonnie is not who the family 498 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 6: or I thought he was. And that was a devastating bloke. 499 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 6: And you know, because of the money wasn't there. You know, 500 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 6: due process was denied to me. I just didn't understand it. 501 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 6: And why that I was being convicted again. Why was 502 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 6: I going through all this? And because they knew, they 503 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 6: knew who've done it. Here's a guy that confessed. He 504 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 6: showed the prosecutors and police and the medical examiners how 505 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 6: he committed the crimes. And he said, why he committed 506 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 6: the crimes. There's no loving father. It's going to make 507 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 6: up the story like that because he wanted to stay. 508 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 6: Police to stop beating on him. There's no story to 509 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,959 Speaker 6: be made up. This is the truth. This is what 510 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 6: he said. That's no story. And then come along he 511 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 6: takes the confession back, but they beat his kid a 512 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 6: black kid in the Faukinsburg police detachment. But they don't 513 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 6: want to believe that. They don't want to believe that 514 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 6: a young kid was beat like he was going down 515 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 6: the highway and then at the police station. They don't 516 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 6: want to believe that. But they will believe that this 517 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 6: grown man thirty forty years old was told and beat 518 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 6: into making a confession. But the cop showing how he 519 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 6: did it. It's what the medical examiner said. The medical 520 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 6: examiner said that these are the things that happened, and 521 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 6: what had happened was what Paul Records has said in 522 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 6: his confession that the troopers didn't know what had happened 523 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 6: because nobody had a copy of that report. Nobody had 524 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 6: a copy of the medical examiner's report. They didn't know 525 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 6: that the kids was packing up. They didn't know that 526 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 6: the kids were spank No. Paul Reagan said that in 527 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 6: his confession the medical examiner didn't know this until he 528 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 6: did in outopsy. He had the food that was in 529 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 6: the kids' stomach, the bruises that were on their body. 530 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 6: Nobody knew this but Paul Records and then the medical 531 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 6: examiner he confirmed it. You know, and knowing all this 532 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 6: and I'm sitting there in court and they said you've 533 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 6: done it. You done it, And I said, what are 534 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 6: you to do? What am I to do? So here 535 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 6: I am pleading, begging for me. 536 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 3: The only good news is you have an amazing team 537 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: behind you now, and you have all and you have 538 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: a lot of good people out here that care about you. 539 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: And you know, listen, I can only apologize for society 540 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 3: as a whole to you for what's been done. I mean, 541 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: it's not gonna it's not going to do much, but 542 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: I can tell you that it's it's a disgrace. And 543 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: I think when people hear about it on the show, 544 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: they're going to be outraged as well, and there'll be 545 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 3: a lot more people that are going to want to help. 546 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 3: What are the next steps now, Like, how do we 547 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 3: correct this horrendous injustice? You know, a lot of the 548 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 3: cases we talk about on the show and cases that 549 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 3: we've covered are cases where they weren't able to find 550 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 3: the actual killer so they framed somebody, right, which is 551 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 3: totally inexcusable as well. But this one's just fucking confusing, right, 552 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: It's like you already got this, It's done. As much 553 00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: as I've been doing this For twenty five years, I 554 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 3: can't remember seeing anything so wrong as this. It's just, 555 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: it's wild. It's just it's like aggressive mouthfeasons right, it's 556 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: like aggressive misconduct because you're undoing a rightful conviction and 557 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: trading it in for a wrongful conviction. You're undoing a 558 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: rightful confession and trading it for a false confession. It's nuts. 559 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 3: So I want to turn it back over to Mark 560 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 3: and Jessica to talk about what the next steps are, 561 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: and then how can people who are listening, who are 562 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 3: hearing the voice of this incredible man who's been locked 563 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 3: up for two and a half times as long as 564 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 3: he was not locked up right When you think about 565 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 3: the fact that he was sixteen years old when he 566 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 3: was arrested and now he's been in for thirty eight years, 567 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: the math is crazy. So what are the next steps? 568 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: How do we get him home? And what can anybody 569 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 3: else do to help? 570 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 4: Well, let me just first say that I had the 571 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 4: pleasure of meeting John along with Jessica and Maddie and 572 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 4: Alex at the mount With Correctional Complex, and for about 573 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 4: two hours it felt like we were in the outside 574 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 4: world in a restaurant talking to a good friend. We 575 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 4: had an instant connection. John's a great person, caring, gentle, 576 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 4: and I know that you can just see when you're 577 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 4: in a prison. You see how the staff respect him. 578 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 4: They all know he doesn't belong in there, They all 579 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 4: know that he shouldn't be there. So it added a 580 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 4: real human dimension to be able to meet John in person, 581 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 4: and I think solidified our friendship and our bond which 582 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 4: will never be broken and that I hope will lead 583 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 4: to a happy ending of him coming out of prison. 584 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 4: In terms of what to do, I mean what we're 585 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 4: focusing on in this class, in this project, I mean, 586 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: we're looking at cases where there's not much legal hope 587 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 4: right now. I mean, obviously, as Jessica mentioned, if we 588 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 4: can find the blood evidence that, if it still exists, 589 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 4: and if we can test it, that obviously could be 590 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 4: an actual innocence claim that could lead to John getting out. 591 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 4: Beyond that, the legal appeals process is very, very limited 592 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 4: in general, and in John's case, there's not that much hope. 593 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 4: So here's where we come in. We're trying to provide 594 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 4: broad public audience and support and mobilization to understand that 595 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 4: this was a wrong that needs to be corrected. We 596 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 4: want to get the public galvanized. We want to get 597 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 4: them mobilized, we want to get them pissed off, and 598 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 4: we want to get them to force West Virginia to 599 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 4: finally do the right thing, which is to free John Moss. 600 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: Jessica, what are your thoughts? People who are listening? Can 601 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 3: they write letters? Can they call someone? What would you suggest? 602 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 3: People are sitting there listening and they're going, I want 603 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: to be Jessica. I want to do what she's doing. 604 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: I get that all the time from people. I want 605 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: to get involved. What do I do? What do they do? 606 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 3: How do they help John Moss? 607 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 7: The third Yeah, the question that I was left with 608 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 7: after examining this case for so long, and the question 609 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 7: that I hope you is the audienceer left with right now, 610 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 7: is why would the police switch from somebody who is 611 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 7: obviously to us the real killer and go to a 612 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 7: seventeen year old black teenager who had nothing to do 613 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 7: with anything? And I want to pressure that question. And 614 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 7: the same folks who were the prosecutors back then are 615 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 7: in the prosecutor's office now, and I want to push 616 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 7: those folks to answer that question. And I don't think 617 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 7: that they have a good answer. So right now, we 618 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 7: have a petition up on change dot org for John 619 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 7: and you can find that petition linked at our website 620 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 7: that's Justice for Johnmoss dot com, so you can go 621 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 7: visit that. We have a Facebook page, we have an Instagram, 622 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 7: and through all of those mechanisms you can find the 623 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 7: phone number for the West Virginia Prosecutor. You can give 624 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 7: them a call, you can write them letters. Because I 625 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 7: want to push that question that they've refused to answer 626 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 7: and that they've been unable to answer, is why would 627 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 7: you let a real killer walk free for heinous, gruesome, 628 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 7: disgusting triple murder and put this young black boy in 629 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 7: prison for no reason? 630 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 3: So, Jessica, I want to give that website information again, 631 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 3: it's Justice for Johnmoss dot com. That'll take you to 632 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 3: all the different information that you need in order to 633 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 3: get activated. And we're going to build an army around 634 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 3: this case and then eventually we'll get them to back off, 635 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 3: because that's what we do. We have a tradition on 636 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction, which is that every show I like to 637 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 3: close with just open up the microphone to you to 638 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 3: say anything you want about anything you want in whatever 639 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 3: way you want to. You know, let Mark go last 640 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 3: because he's the professor, and so we'll have the student first. Jessica, 641 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 3: what are your closing thoughts? 642 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 7: Yeah, well, first, I want to thank you for having us, 643 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 7: Jason and Mark, for the opportunity to participate in this class. 644 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 7: It's truly for myself and for the other two folks 645 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 7: on my team, Mattie and Alex has been life changing 646 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 7: and transformative. To be able to not only work on 647 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 7: John's case, but to get to know John's case. John 648 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 7: as a person, and I'm sure that everyone who's listening 649 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 7: to this loves him almost as much as I do. 650 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 7: He's so compassionate and carrying and warm, and it's an 651 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 7: honor to not only be able to help him in 652 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 7: his rightful fight to get out of prison, but to 653 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 7: call him a friend and a close friend. And I'm 654 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 7: so grateful for the opportunit unity to be participating in 655 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 7: something as big as this, because, like John said, it's 656 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 7: not just him that's wrongfully incarcerated. There were you know, 657 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 7: nobody knows the exact number, but tens of thousands of 658 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 7: people across the country right now who are in prison 659 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 7: for things that they didn't do. It's about reforming the 660 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 7: system on the whole. And I can say that myself 661 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 7: and certainly other folks in this class have, as a 662 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 7: result of this project, a more solidified and a stronger 663 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 7: commitment to changing the way that system works, to make 664 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 7: sure that folks who are in prison for crimes are 665 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 7: there because they did it, and we shouldn't just as 666 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 7: a society, be putting innocent folks in prison anymore. So, 667 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 7: all in all, I'm just so grateful and happy to 668 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 7: be able to get to know John and be friends 669 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 7: with John and be able to be a voice for 670 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 7: him on the outside. 671 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 3: Well said, And now, Professor Howard, what do you got 672 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 3: to say? 673 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 4: Well, first, let me say what Jessica I think has 674 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 4: shown is that she belongs at any law school in 675 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 4: the country, and any firm and any organization would be 676 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 4: so lucky to have her. And also that applies to 677 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 4: Maddie and Alex as students. They came into this class. 678 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 4: It's an unusual class. It's taught by a Georgetown professor 679 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 4: along with an Exannaree who have this close bond and 680 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 4: we're childhood friends, and we gave them a set of 681 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 4: cases and what they've done with them. I mean, there 682 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 4: are three other cases that are mind boggling. To John's, 683 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: I think is just surreal. But what Jessica, Maddie and 684 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 4: Alex have done is extraordinary. They really deserve the credit 685 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 4: for having created the website, for having brought all the attention, 686 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 4: for having investigated. I mean, they've worked tirelessly on this case. 687 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 4: They've invested their lives, and that's not easy to do 688 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 4: when you're a student, when you're a senior, there's a 689 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 4: lot of other things going on in your life. But 690 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 4: they've made this their priority, and they're so committed and 691 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 4: devoted to John, and that is infectious. And I'm completely 692 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 4: committed as well, especially having met John in person. And 693 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 4: I just want to close by bringing it back to 694 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 4: something that I think I want the audience to just 695 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 4: think about, which is thirty eight years. Think about what 696 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 4: that amount of time is. Think about what you've done 697 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 4: in your life. If you've even been alive for thirty 698 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 4: eight years uggles my mind. That my friend Marty did 699 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 4: seventeen and a half years. I mean, that is alone 700 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 4: is crazy and surreal. But when you think about thirty 701 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,479 Speaker 4: eight years, almost four decades, right, it's just extraordinary and John, 702 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 4: for you to be as strong as you are and 703 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 4: inspiring and kind. You're just a wonderful person and we 704 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 4: will do everything we can to try to bring you 705 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 4: out and bring you home. 706 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 3: John, I would like to turn it over to you too, 707 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 3: so it's all yours. 708 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 6: Well. First, I would like to thank you for allowing 709 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 6: me to speak on your show. I appreciate it very much, 710 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 6: and I can never say enough of about my good 711 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 6: friends there from Georgetow, Mark and Jessica, Maddie and Alex 712 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,879 Speaker 6: and I can't forget Marty again, you know the home 713 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 6: I'm I'm just overwhelmed with everything that's going on, with 714 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 6: the tension and the guy's bringing to my case and 715 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 6: the miscarriage of justice that has happened. It is my 716 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 6: hope that the people would reach out and continue to 717 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 6: talk about the wrongful convictions throughout the country, not just me, 718 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 6: but throughout the country of guys like me just too. 719 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 6: When I tell you, it's it's hard in time to 720 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 6: express you know how I feel what I'm feeling. Oh 721 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 6: jee Oh, I really appreciated the cases that you're giving 722 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 6: me this opportunity. You know, it's it's been hard because 723 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 6: you know I don't have my family. That's what I 724 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 6: always fall back on, my family get out of here. 725 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 6: You know, that's one of the problems I would have 726 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 6: to faith in not having my family. When I come 727 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 6: to prison, there were seven of us. Now there's only 728 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 6: three of us, my two sisters. And that's one of 729 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 6: the things that I worry about and dealing with, you know, 730 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 6: my family not being there. And it's gonna be hard, 731 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 6: and a lot has changed. And you know, some people 732 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 6: say that John's gonna be hard, You're gonna need all 733 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 6: kind of help, and I'm sure I know that I 734 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 6: wouldn't need it because the world has changed out there. 735 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 6: You know. When I was out there, I was a 736 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 6: kid and now I'm a grown old man. And and 737 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 6: it's one of the things that just I like to 738 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 6: be able to rule my own life, you know, just 739 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 6: thinking about you all life out there, and it's uncomparable. 740 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 6: And I like to have the opportunity to one day 741 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 6: or drive a car, go to a movie again, and 742 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 6: go see a show. These things were taken away from 743 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 6: me for no apparent reasons. I've done nothing to deserve this, 744 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 6: and it is my hope, my prayer that you know, 745 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 6: society now would listen, we'll hear my cry and come 746 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 6: to my hand and come and help me, because I 747 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 6: need all the help I can get it. You know, 748 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 6: I haven't found many many petitions, and I can't there's 749 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 6: no more. Like you said, now, it's time to bring 750 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 6: awareness to the corruption of the judicial system. But I 751 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 6: thank you. I thank you around me the offertility to speak, 752 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 6: I'm not much your own speaking like this, but I 753 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 6: very much appreciated Jessica and Marti. They spoke very good 754 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 6: above my my case in my situation, and I appreciate 755 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 6: all they have in what you are now doing, and 756 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 6: I really do. I appreciate it. Thank you. 757 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 3: You should know, John, that they speak so highly of you, 758 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 3: and I think that I'm speaking for them when I 759 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 3: say that. I think they feel the same way about 760 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 3: you that you feel about them. And I know now 761 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 3: just getting to know you over the phone, I can 762 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 3: understand why. John. I want to say, it's been an 763 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 3: honor for me to have you on the show. You're 764 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 3: one of the bravest people I know of I'm looking 765 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 3: forward to get to know you in person. Your army's 766 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 3: getting bigger and uh and it's like I said, It's 767 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 3: a privilege for me to be able to be a 768 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 3: part of the solution, and I'm going to keep fighting 769 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 3: for you right alongside these great people. So thank you 770 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 3: again for joining us. I'm looking forward to meeting you, 771 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 3: preferably on the outside and that's where that's what we're 772 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: gonna be working for. 773 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. 774 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 775 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 3: get your podcasts. 776 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: It really helps. 777 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 3: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and 778 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 3: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 779 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 3: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 780 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 3: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate 781 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 3: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, 782 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 3: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show 783 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 3: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 784 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 3: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 785 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,280 Speaker 3: on Facebook at Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm 786 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 3: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association 787 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 3: with Signal Company Number one