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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I left you with the big cliffhanger.

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Speaker 1: I feel like several cliffhangers from last na. Last week,

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Speaker 1: the story of Ruth Fernandez, there was a lot. What

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Speaker 1: do you remember? I'm going to make you do the summary.

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Speaker 1: What do you remember about this case from last week?

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Speaker 3: Well? I remember that.

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Speaker 2: A fraudster, Tony, had gotten into a relationship with Ruth.

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Speaker 2: They were both in their forties, Tony being about six

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Speaker 2: years older, and as the relationship progressed from nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: one to nineteen seventy four, it appears that it fell apart.

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Speaker 2: Ruth had gone to Texas for about a month and

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Speaker 2: complained to her daughter or was it a friend both.

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Speaker 1: She complained to a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, okay, so I complained that the relationship

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Speaker 2: was in shambles. Meanwhile, Tony had convinced Ruth to give

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Speaker 2: him power of attorney and he starts selling off some

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Speaker 2: of her assets. It sounds like land. And then when

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Speaker 2: she gets back into town, he convinces her to go

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Speaker 2: on a camping trip and they stop at a restaurant.

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Speaker 3: They have a few drinks. Everything seems fine.

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Speaker 2: As they drive up closer to the campsite, he stops

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Speaker 2: off at a timber company and some witnesses see them.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's concerned about the way that Ruth and Tony are interacting,

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Speaker 2: and then they go up to the campsite, and around

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Speaker 2: eight thirty that night, Tony is now calling a couple

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Speaker 2: of restaurants saying Ruth has walked off by herself, and

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Speaker 2: he's concerned about her and is wondering if people at

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Speaker 2: the restaurants have.

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Speaker 3: Seen her, And then he.

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Speaker 2: Calls Washington State Patrol and changes his story and says

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Speaker 2: that Ruth has driven off in their RV Winnebago, and

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Speaker 2: they happen to have a jeep with them or a

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Speaker 2: similar type of SUV, and he's driving that. And then

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Speaker 2: ultimately he is with Ruth's future son in law and

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Speaker 2: they're driving and they see some skid marks on a

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Speaker 2: logging road and look over the edge and there's a

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Speaker 2: crashed RV and the future son in law goes down

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Speaker 2: and finds Ruth's body away from the RV, further down

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Speaker 2: the slope, and she's dead.

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Speaker 1: You're hired. You need to do all my summaries from

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Speaker 1: now on. That was excellent, Oh better better than I

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Speaker 1: could have done. And it proves that you've been listening,

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Speaker 1: which is just a bonus for me. That's fantastic.

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Speaker 3: I always listen to you.

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Speaker 1: You got it all right. He takes the suv back,

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Speaker 1: made some bone calls, takes the SUV back to Auburn.

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Speaker 1: She's not there. He takes the future son in law

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Speaker 1: with him. Now this is where things get a little complicated.

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Speaker 1: So Donald had said he saw skid marks on the

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Speaker 1: road and that's why he gravitated towards this section. She

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Speaker 1: was found one hundred feet down from the embankment. You know,

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Speaker 1: she's got signs of trauma to her head, into her stomach.

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Speaker 1: So when investigators show up to come look, they immediately

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Speaker 1: zero in on the conditions of this logging road. Now,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you, logging road. Does that mean dirt

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Speaker 1: or does that mean pavement or could it be either.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it mads pavement, and I think it's

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Speaker 2: either dirt or maybe gravel, you know, depending on the

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Speaker 2: type of traffic they're expecting. So that's where again i'd

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Speaker 2: love to see photos of this, you know, these skid marks,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, is it in the dirt, is

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Speaker 2: it in the gravel? Is it just you know, the

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Speaker 2: skid marks going over the edge or their skid marks

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Speaker 2: leading up to where the Winnebago went over the edge,

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Speaker 2: because I would indicate that there is some either some

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Speaker 2: type of speed, depending on if it's upslope or downslope.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm sorry about the photos. My apologies. I

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Speaker 1: know you would think we would have some seene photos here,

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Speaker 1: but we don't. We're just going to have to go

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Speaker 1: off what the investigators saying, what Anne Rule says, who

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Speaker 1: did pretty extensive research on this. So the inconsistencies are

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Speaker 1: with the skid marks. So Donald had said, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he described skid marks, but he said,

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Speaker 1: this is the reason I look down the embankment. The

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Speaker 1: investigators sort of there's inconsistent with whether or not they

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Speaker 1: see skid marks nearby. What everybody agrees on is there's

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Speaker 1: a big rock four inches tall that is near the

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Speaker 1: edge of the embankment. And I think what the presumption

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Speaker 1: is is that she was driving her wheel hit this rock,

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Speaker 1: it spun her off. Maybe she was going too fast

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Speaker 1: and it was getting dark anyway, or was dark at

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Speaker 1: this point, and it sent the RV down the embankment.

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Speaker 1: There's no real consistent source that says there were definite

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Speaker 1: skid marks. How would skid marks work on a dirt

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Speaker 1: road to begin with?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, first you said that there's a real tall rock,

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Speaker 2: and you said it was four.

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Speaker 1: Inches I mean, is that enough if you hit it

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Speaker 1: with an RV tire, a big tire, Is that enough

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Speaker 1: to make it kind of veer off?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: No, not in an off road capacity. If it's just

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Speaker 2: four inches tall, you might feel the bump, you know,

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Speaker 2: for sure, Like where I go out here in Colorado.

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Speaker 2: I have boulders that are four feet tall that are

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Speaker 2: on the sign of some of the roads I go on. Right,

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Speaker 2: You know, if I were to hit something like that,

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Speaker 2: that could cause my jeep to take an impact and

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Speaker 2: may affect you know, my course on the road. Four

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Speaker 2: inches wouldn't do anything I wouldn't expect. But when you

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Speaker 2: start talking about the skid marks on this road, is

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Speaker 2: this you know? This is where Okay, do we see

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Speaker 2: if it's a dirt road? Are we seeing where tires

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Speaker 2: have locked up and you have this, you know, true

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Speaker 2: skid marks because you know the person driving is trying

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Speaker 2: to stop the RV before it goes over the edge

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Speaker 2: but fails to do that. Or are we talking about

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Speaker 2: a scenario if this is a dirt road and it's logging.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes you'll have the heavy equipment like these big scrapers

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Speaker 2: that will come along in order to maintain the road,

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Speaker 2: and you'll see the dirt gets piled up on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road before it goes down the embankment.

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Speaker 2: And do you have a scenario where you don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: see the dirt being disrupted because a tire have locked up?

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Speaker 2: What you see is you see the driver and passenger

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Speaker 2: side tires going through this softer a mound of dirt

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Speaker 2: where they shouldn't be going. Has the Winnebago is going

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Speaker 2: over the side of this cliff. It comes down to

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Speaker 2: and I know where the scenario is going to go.

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Speaker 2: Is was Ruth really driving and did this scenario occur

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Speaker 2: where she's slamming on the brakes, you know, and then

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Speaker 2: fails to be able to maintain the Winnebago on the

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Speaker 2: road versus was she already dead or unconscious and the

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Speaker 2: Winnebago is allowed to drift off the road with her

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Speaker 2: in there. And that's again the skid marks become kind

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Speaker 2: of critical because it's kind of hard for an external

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Speaker 2: person outside of Winnebago to apply brakes, you know, to

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Speaker 2: make it look like or simulate that this Winnebago is

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Speaker 2: traveling at speed and the wheels lock up and just

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Speaker 2: fail to keep the Winnebago on the road.

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Speaker 1: Well, what investigators say and what ann Rule records in

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Speaker 1: her book is that the markings on the road indicate

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Speaker 1: that no one had stomped on the brakes as some

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Speaker 1: desperate attempt to keep it from plunging over, and it

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Speaker 1: actually seemed like the Winnebago was not moving very quickly

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Speaker 1: on the road. That's what their investigators are saying. So

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Speaker 1: whatever the skid marks, Donald thought he saw. Whatever that

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Speaker 1: description is. Investigators, when in they get out there, say

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Speaker 1: this is not some RV going at a high rate

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Speaker 1: of speed and she makes a mistake or a deer

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Speaker 1: jumps out in front of her and she's slamming on

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Speaker 1: her brakes. This is something else. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that helps, and we'll have a little bit more

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Speaker 1: information in a bit, but it does not convince investigators

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Speaker 1: that she, if she were driving, is the cause of

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Speaker 1: this accident, that this was an accident. They become immediately

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Speaker 1: suspicious based on her body, the road, and what's inside

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Speaker 1: the RV, or rather what is not inside the RV.

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Speaker 1: There's no blood, there's no nothing. There's no blood, no

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Speaker 1: torn flesh, no hair. She had been wearing a loosely

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Speaker 1: woven bloe that would have like caught up on something

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Speaker 1: during this terrible, you know, bucketing down the steep hill,

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Speaker 1: but her blouse had no tears in it, there were

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Speaker 1: no snags in it. There's no blood, As I said,

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Speaker 1: inside the RV. Investigators say there are no signs that

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Speaker 1: a body was tossed around inside the RV at any point,

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Speaker 1: even those of this thing is completely crunched up at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of this embankment.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Now the question is going to be, at what point

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Speaker 2: during this RV going over the embankment could Ruth have

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Speaker 2: been thrown out. If she's thrown out very early, then

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Speaker 2: it's possible you're not going to have the blood staining

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Speaker 2: and other types of tissues and the clothes tearing as

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Speaker 2: they're describing inside the RV because her body is out

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Speaker 2: before the RV is really impacting as it's tumbling down,

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Speaker 2: and this is where autopsy's critical.

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Speaker 1: Well, I got it, buddy, Okay, Okay, So there is

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Speaker 1: a post mortem exam and it is in Seattle, which

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Speaker 1: is probably good news for US Medical Examiner, which is

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Speaker 1: great news for US. So let's talk about the condition

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Speaker 1: of the body and then her blood alcohol level or

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Speaker 1: which one do you care?

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Speaker 2: It really doesn't matter because you know, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be assessing the totality of the findings the toxicology in

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Speaker 2: addition to what types of injuries and other things that

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Speaker 2: the pathologist is observing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So there's three things that we need to talk about.

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Speaker 1: So we'll do the injuries to her body, because we

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Speaker 1: just talked about the fact that there doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be anything tossed around really inside this crunched up RV.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about the blood alcohol level of Ruth, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll talk about how the RV is positioned and

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Speaker 1: kind of what year it's in, because I think all

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Speaker 1: of that is important. Okay. Medical examiner who is a

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Speaker 1: guy named doctor Donald Ray. He looks at Ruth's body

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Speaker 1: shortly after it's recovered. He says that there were no

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Speaker 1: lacerations on her the skin was not broken. She had

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Speaker 1: minor bruises and abrasions on her arms and legs. He

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Speaker 1: said that there was an injury to her abdomen which

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Speaker 1: looks like it was struck with some sort of a

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Speaker 1: blunt object, and there was a skull fracture and that's

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Speaker 1: what they think is what killed her. And most of

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Speaker 1: the other injuries were superficial. He says, this is not

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Speaker 1: what you would expect from somebody who was thrown out

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Speaker 1: of a vehicle. You would have had many other, you know, injuries.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think about this so far? There's

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Speaker 1: some you know, injury to her abdomen, crushed skull, but

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Speaker 1: everything else is just sort of scrapes. And the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner are saying, no way, this woman was thrown going

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Speaker 1: down an embankment out of an RV with all of

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Speaker 1: this brush in these trees around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also assessing geology, if you will, you know,

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Speaker 2: is this a very rocky area. She's separated from the

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Speaker 2: RV's down slope a distance from where the RV came

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Speaker 2: to rest. What is her body going to be hitting?

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Speaker 2: You know, of course there's going to be the side

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Speaker 2: of the slope, there's uh, you know, maybe bushes and

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Speaker 2: different trees, not knowing you know how veget you know

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Speaker 2: what the vegetation type is here. But then were there

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Speaker 2: also you know, lots of rocks and minimally I would

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Speaker 2: be expecting with a body that is having to tumble

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Speaker 2: likely you know, if if she fell, I don't even

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Speaker 2: know how far down as you know the RV from

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Speaker 2: the road. Are we talking ten ten feet? Are we

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Speaker 2: talking one hundred feet? Do you have any of that

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Speaker 2: type of information.

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Speaker 1: Well, what they had said was she was found not

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Speaker 1: far from the wreckage, about one hundred feet down the embankment.

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Speaker 1: So I'm assuming that's what one hundred feet down from

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Speaker 1: the road, that's where she was.

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Speaker 2: And how steep, like what could her body have fallen?

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm trying to trying to figure out is

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Speaker 2: this a scenario where she fell, you know, she free

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Speaker 2: fault fifty feet before impacting something, or she just kind

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Speaker 2: of rolling down this slope.

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Speaker 1: I'll describe it better for you. So we've got the road.

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Speaker 1: It is described as a steep, rocky embankment off the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: It's a slope or a cliff which goes into what

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Speaker 1: they call a ravine, So it's definitely going down. It's

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Speaker 1: definitely like a cliff slope. Her body is one hundred

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Speaker 1: feet down the embankment. The RV is three hundred feet

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Speaker 1: down the embankment. So she goes first, and then the

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Speaker 1: RV keeps going down past her. Okay, does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yep, Nope, for sure.

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Speaker 2: It also tells me that there aren't a lot of

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Speaker 2: big tall trees like pine trees that's catching the RV,

251
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Speaker 2: you know, right after it goes over the slope. So

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Speaker 2: sounds like both the RV and Ruth were able to

253
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Speaker 2: tumble to their final resting spots. This type of tumbling

254
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Speaker 2: on Ruth would most certainly be causing a fair amount

255
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Speaker 2: of abrasions on various surfaces of her body. The lack

256
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Speaker 2: of lacerations, you know, a laceration technically is when there's

257
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Speaker 2: been kind of a blow with a blunt object on

258
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Speaker 2: the surface of the skin that causes the skin to split.

259
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure without seeing the scene if I would

260
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Speaker 2: be expecting to see true lacerations. If she's just tumbling

261
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Speaker 2: and she's not impacting rocks like she's falling and having

262
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Speaker 2: these massive impacts against the rocks. The skull fracture, again,

263
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Speaker 2: that's going to be dependent upon what is the cause

264
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Speaker 2: of the skull fracture. Does it look like it's you know,

265
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Speaker 2: something that could be caused from the way that she's

266
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Speaker 2: tumbled down.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of a tweener, you know.

268
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Speaker 2: And this is this is part of the complexity of

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Speaker 2: assessing this type of case. Is is there anything you know,

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Speaker 2: Let's say there, I'm going to be very obvious here.

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Speaker 2: Let's say her throat is cut. That becomes easy. But

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Speaker 2: when you have her injuries that you know could be

273
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Speaker 2: caused by her tumbling down this slope, then this is

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Speaker 2: where now it's relying upon doctor Ray's observation. Who's going

275
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Speaker 2: These do not appear to be consistent with what you know?

276
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Speaker 2: The idea of this is an accident. All she's thrown

277
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Speaker 2: from the vehicle and is tumbling down this particular terrain.

278
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Speaker 2: At this point in time, I have to rely on

279
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Speaker 2: doctor Ray in his conclusion and say, okay, well, if

280
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Speaker 2: he's drawing that conclusion, that's something which will now lend

281
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 2: suspicion as to Okay, what truly did happen to Ruth?

282
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Speaker 2: And then now it's okay, what's going on with the Winnebago.

283
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Speaker 1: Before we get to the Winnebago, which is interesting, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about Ruth and her blood alcohol level, because, as

285
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Speaker 1: you can imagine, the defense is going to be all

286
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 1: over this. I don't know anything about blood coal levels.

287
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 1: I probably should know more, but it's at about zero

288
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Speaker 1: point one point five, okay, but it could have been

289
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 1: as much as point two four at the time of

290
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Speaker 1: her death, because he thinks she lived about an hour

291
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,680
Speaker 1: and a half before she died. Now I don't know

292
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 1: how he knows that, but those are the two pieces

293
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:06,880
Speaker 1: of information that are new for you.

294
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 3: Point one five to point two four. This is a

295
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 3: high blood alcohol level.

296
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Speaker 2: Of course, everybody's familiar that. Typically here in the United States,

297
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 2: what is considered to be too impaired to drive is

298
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 2: the point zero eight percent. The point one five is,

299
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,120
Speaker 2: of course, almost double the legal driving limit in most

300
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 2: states here. So she's ingested a fair amount of alcohol.

301
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 2: Now it sounds like we know she had a few

302
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 2: cocktails earlier in the day four thirty ish, but it

303
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like she drank enough to get her up

304
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Speaker 2: to a point one five at that restaurant, And most

305
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 2: people at a one to five are visibly intoxicated. It's

306
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 2: pretty obvious unless you are a very tolerant drinker, point

307
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 2: one five is a significant alcohol level. So she leaves

308
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 2: the restaurant and then at some point she likely is

309
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 2: consuming more alcohol, and that's where you know, obviously, interviews

310
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Speaker 2: with Tony, what did you guys do when you get

311
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Speaker 2: to the campsite, how much did you have to drink?

312
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,199
Speaker 2: Investigating the winnebag or the crime scene, you know, what's

313
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Speaker 2: the source of the alcohol that's in her system? To

314
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,000
Speaker 2: try to correlate that, I kind of disagree with the

315
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,360
Speaker 2: pathologist saying that she could have been as high as

316
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Speaker 2: a point two four and her just laying there. Typically,

317
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,879
Speaker 2: on average people will burn off roughly about an O

318
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Speaker 2: two per hour, and it can vary from person to person,

319
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Speaker 2: you know. So to say, well she laid there for

320
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 2: an hour and a half, so she dropped from a

321
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 2: point two four down to a point one point five,

322
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Speaker 2: I don't agree with that. I would say, if she's

323
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,919
Speaker 2: alive and she's eliminating the alcohol in her system, she

324
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,919
Speaker 2: maybe max would have been around one to seven. You know,

325
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Speaker 2: And for the average person, like for one hundred and

326
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Speaker 2: fifty pounds mail to be up at a one seven,

327
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: and generally it's like you, you rise up about an

328
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,760
Speaker 2: O two per drink. So now you are taking a

329
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Speaker 2: look at somebody who's had one hundred and fifty pound mail,

330
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,880
Speaker 2: you know, roughly eight and a half drinks.

331
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Speaker 3: All at once. Wow, you know.

332
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Speaker 2: And typically what happens, of course, is you drink over time,

333
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,960
Speaker 2: and as you drink, you're also eliminating. So for Ruth

334
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 2: to get up to a one five and she's I'm

335
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 2: assuming she's a more petite woman, She's not one hundred

336
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Speaker 2: and fifty pounds like one hundred and fifty pound mail,

337
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 2: let's say she would rise per drink point oh three.

338
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 2: You know, now she had you know, roughly five plus

339
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 2: drinks in her system at the time that they tested her,

340
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 2: and she likely had more than that. And a drink

341
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 2: is you know, a twelve ounce beer, standard glass of wine,

342
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 2: or a shot of one hundred proof spirit. You know,

343
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 2: that's generally how we define these drinks. So she would

344
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: have had a fairly significant amount of drinks in her

345
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 2: system prior to her ending up dead.

346
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: And she would have been the one to do this, right.

347
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,119
Speaker 1: I know that sounds like a silly question, but you know,

348
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,399
Speaker 1: with drugs, you know, we know that there are cases

349
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 1: where people inject victims with heroin different drugs to kind

350
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: of set this up as an overdose. But you can't

351
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 1: do that with alcohol. I mean, this is a significant

352
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: amount of alcohol. So she probably at the camp site

353
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Speaker 1: between four thirty when somebody last saw her and eight thirty,

354
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 1: when Tony starts making phone calls. Between this time drank

355
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: a significant amount of alcohol, probably on her own accord.

356
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,679
Speaker 2: It's really tough to have somebody ingest alcohol. You know,

357
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 2: the idea of let's say, injecting pure ethanol into somebody's

358
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 2: body that seems a little far fetched, so I would say, yeah,

359
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 2: she probably voluntarily drank this alcohol. And and now this

360
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,400
Speaker 2: is going, okay, what happened between four thirty and eight

361
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: thirty ish.

362
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and her kids have said, yeah, she drank. She

363
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,199
Speaker 1: didn't have a drinking problem, they believed, but that she

364
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,439
Speaker 1: was not somebody who would turn down alcohol necessarily. And

365
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,880
Speaker 1: probably she's up at this campsite with this miserable guy

366
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: wanting to kind of take it all away, and drinking

367
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: a lot of alcohol. So you can see where this

368
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 1: is going. This is a defense. She drank a lot

369
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 1: at the campsite, She got in the RV, he didn't

370
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: leave for another twenty or thirty minutes. She ends up

371
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: off the embankment, thrown out of the car, drunk driving accident,

372
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 1: steep hill. She shouldn't have been doing it. And that's

373
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,159
Speaker 1: where we're going to land except some weird things. So

374
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: tell me what you think about this. The RV is

375
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: crumpled after this crash because it's three hundred feet down

376
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 1: this embankment, this rocky embankment. According to a report from

377
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 1: the Associated Press, the vehicle, the RV is in park

378
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: and the emergency brake is engaged. When this is discovered,

379
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: let me just tell you this one little bit, and

380
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: then you can go back and address that if you want.

381
00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: So.

382
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: There was a mechanic who had service this RV that

383
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: they rented before the Fernandez has picked it up, and

384
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 1: he says that the vehicle was in poor condition, that

385
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: it had a dead battery and a loose fan belt.

386
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: But the company says, we did plenty of work on it.

387
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: It was just fine when we lint it out to them,

388
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 1: What does it mean that it's in park and that

389
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: the emergency brake is engaged.

390
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 3: It most certainly is suspicious.

391
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: This is where you know anything involving vehicles, and there's

392
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 2: a question about the vehicles, the mechanics, and whether or

393
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: not the various hypothetical scenarios of what happened could occur

394
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 2: with the way the vehicle is found and this RV,

395
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 2: I don't know what its mechanics are. In terms of

396
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 2: the parking, it sounds like it had automatic transmission, and

397
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 2: typically when you put something in park, there's actually a

398
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: metal barrier that prevents you know, the wheels from turning.

399
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 2: You know, it's very different. I have manual transmission my

400
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: jeep and I don't have a park, you know, I

401
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: have to rely on the emergence break, so.

402
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: You know, this is where?

403
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: How is this this vehicle in park with the emergency

404
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 2: brake on? How could it end up over the slope

405
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: as it did? Do you have you know, the ability

406
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: to could you expect Ruth as let's say she's recognizing

407
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 2: that this vehicle is is possibly going to go over

408
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: the edge? Is she pulling up on the emergency brake?

409
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: Is she slamming the transmission park in order to be

410
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: able to get it to to further come to a

411
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 2: halt because the brakes themselves aren't slowing it down.

412
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: You know that that.

413
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: Seems a little bit far fetched. Is it possible that

414
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 2: you know, let's say a third party Tony, you know,

415
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: could have Ruth unconscious or dead inside this RV or

416
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: and have it just teetering on the edge, you know,

417
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: and have it it's in park with the emergency brake

418
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: on and it's over on the edge just enough to

419
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 2: where at events just slides right down. Now you've got

420
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: the scenario. I would have expected it to have been

421
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 2: in gear with the emergency breakof or she went over

422
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 2: the edge. Is this a flat part of the road.

423
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 2: Is it downslope or is it must be either flat

424
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 2: or down versus up.

425
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: I think it's flat. No, I don't think it's up.

426
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: I think it's flat.

427
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just trying to envision myself being outside an RV.

428
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 2: You know, Let's say the driver's door is open and

429
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: I want this huge vehicle to go over the edge.

430
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: I mean that's risky in and of itself, you know.

431
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: So how how would Tony be able to get this

432
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: RV over the edge if it is in park and

433
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: the emergency break is on? You know, and this again

434
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,239
Speaker 2: is working with experts and trying to figure out is

435
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: that a possibility. But it is suspicious that it is

436
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: in park and the emergency break is engaged.

437
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: Yes, it's really suspicious. And you know, as this case

438
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: gets going, her daughters are panicking because he has now

439
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: inherited her state, which is two hundred and fifty thousand

440
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: to four hundred thousand dollars millions of dollars now. So

441
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six they take Tony to civil court

442
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: over the estate, and there are witnesses at these proceedings,

443
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: these medical experts to call into question, of course, whether

444
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: Ruth died in an accident or whether she was a

445
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: victim of homicide, and the judge comes away feeling that,

446
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 1: you know, it's clear that Fernandez, Tony Fernandez killed his wife.

447
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: There are no criminal charges yet, but they're coming. Fifty

448
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: three year old Tony then is blocked from getting his

449
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: wife's estate. He is kicked out of their Auburn home,

450
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: and of course he goes on and on about this

451
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: being a hoax and a fraud, and the stepdaughters are

452
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: out to get him. But the King County prosecuting attorney

453
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 1: gives Tony much more to worry about because he has

454
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: now launched these criminal charges against Tony for his wife's

455
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: death in nineteen seventy eight, four years after she died.

456
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: So it's a huge amount of of media attention. Of course,

457
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: Anne Rule writes part of her book about it. He's

458
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: framed as a gold digger, which it sounds like he was.

459
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you haven't asked about this. She has so

460
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: many assets. This seems minor to me. But he had

461
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: taken out one hundred thousand dollars accidental death policy on

462
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: her two months and six days before her untimely death,

463
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: and it sounds like he forged her signature on that

464
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: document and she had other life insurance policies totaling about

465
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: eighty four thousand dollars. Well, I mean, this guy, that's

466
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: a lot.

467
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 3: No for sure, you know.

468
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: And it's always suspicious when you see a policy taken

469
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: out that is, you know, contemporaneous to the time of

470
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: the death, you know, And so why is he taking

471
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: out that accidental death policy?

472
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's just that's a red flag.

473
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: It's circumstantial, you know, but it most certainly kind of

474
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: adds up to the totality of what's going on. He's

475
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: interested in her for her finalinancial assets. He's doing everything

476
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: he can so he can control our financial assets by

477
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: getting power of attorney. He's got the past criminal history

478
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: of fraud. You know, everything adds up to where, okay,

479
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: he's he's planning on, you know, several months ahead of

480
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: time by taking out this policy.

481
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: He's already in his mind going.

482
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: To be killing Ruth, and he's going to be the

483
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: beneficiary of that policy.

484
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 3: So he's planned this for a while.

485
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: You know. I've often wondered, and maybe you have the

486
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: answer to this about these accidental death policies. How often

487
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: do these insurance companies investigate these types of deaths. I

488
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: guess it's clear on the majority of them that these

489
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: truly were accidents. But obviously this is not the first

490
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: time that this has come up, that somebody's taken out

491
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: a policy like this and then the person becomes a

492
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: victim later on.

493
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: Well, I most early don't have the volume of exposure

494
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: to say how often the insurance companies, let's say, don't

495
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: disperse the funds. I do know select cases I've had

496
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: involvement in that insurance companies they do pay attention. They're

497
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: not just going to willy nilly pay out tens of thousands,

498
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. If there's any

499
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: chance that the death was something that is not covered

500
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: by policy, let's say suicide, or if the beneficiary is

501
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: the suspect of a homicide, they're going to hold on

502
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: to their money, you know.

503
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 3: So that's where you know, in.

504
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: This particular case, the criminal side of it is it

505
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: was it an accident or was it homicide. At a

506
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: certain point, the insurance company may end up, especially if

507
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: this drags out long enough and there's no criminal charges,

508
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, they may request from the you know, the

509
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: investigating agency or the district attorney. Hey, do you think

510
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: the beneficiary is responsible or not? Is there going to

511
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: be criminal charges down the road. But at a certain

512
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: point if it's still no criminal charge, and I think

513
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: they're going to pay out, you know, and then maybe

514
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 2: try to recoup the money if all of a sudden

515
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: criminal charges are filed. But I just don't have enough

516
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: you know, experience to be able to say exactly how

517
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: this all plays out.

518
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of premeditation, it turns out that Tony has

519
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: been telling friends and family that Ruth had been experiencing

520
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: health problems in the months before the crash, which included

521
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: blackouts and memory lapses. So he's been saying this before

522
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: her death. Of course, the daughters are saying, no, we

523
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: don't think so, we've never heard of this before. And

524
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: then Ruth's doctor says, this is bs. She was in

525
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: great health, so he is, you're right, continuing to plot beforehand.

526
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: We can talk about what the prosecutor says he thinks happened,

527
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: and we can also talk about, you know, what the

528
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: motivation was, because it sounds like there's actually a couple

529
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: of motivations.

530
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe before that. You know, I still go

531
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: back to the blood alcohol and Ruth. Was there any evidence,

532
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, and did Tony make any statements as to

533
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, where's Ruth getting this alcohol?

534
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: It sounds like it was something like they were drinking

535
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: at the campsite and she got in and decided to

536
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: go home, and he didn't stop her because she had

537
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: driven an RV before. And then that was that this

538
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: was a drunk driving accident. Nobody is saying this happened

539
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: on purpose, No one. It seems to be saying that

540
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: she was accosted and somebody else set this up. It

541
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: just sounds like she drank a lot with Tony at

542
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: the restaurant and at the campsite and then got in

543
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: and made a mistake.

544
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, right now my thought is Ruth

545
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: was killed at the campsite and that's the homicide scene,

546
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, and so that's where you know, I'm wanting

547
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: to know what kind of activities were occurring at the campsite.

548
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: How thoroughly did they process this campsite. She has a

549
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: skull fracture, Did she have any external bleeding at all?

550
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: No? Not what the emmy says. Now, it sounds like

551
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: he did a pretty good job setting this up as

552
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: an accident. I know he's made some mistakes, but the

553
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: DA's nervous about.

554
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: This, yeah, because it is it is tough with exactly

555
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: the injuries that she does have. It's it's hard to

556
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: pull out something that you can say this was done

557
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: by a person versus her body going down the slope.

558
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: And if she wasn't externally bleeding and you have no

559
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: you know bleeding at the campsite or you know, within

560
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: the cheap or within the the Winnebago, that's not in

561
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: a location where you'd expect Ruth to have any bleeding

562
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: inside the Winnebago as a result of the fall. You know,

563
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: bodies can you know, you think bodies tumbling inside this

564
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: huge RV can actually be you know, shifting all throughout

565
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: this this RV potentially, But if she's only one hundred

566
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: feet down in this RVs three hundred feet down, if

567
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: this was an accident, she's ejected very quickly, you know,

568
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: so I would not expect her to have been tumbling

569
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: all throughout this RV. So that's where if if there

570
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: was no blood in the RV, or if there was

571
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: blood in the RV and she had some bleeding injuries

572
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: and that would be suspicious and that maybe is a

573
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: homicide scene. But yeah, this is a tough case from

574
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: a physical evidence in a crime scene reconstruction aspect.

575
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk about what the DA things happened.

576
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: He says, Tony bludgeon heed to death. He does not

577
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: say where, but we're assuming at the campsite would probably

578
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: be the smartest place to do it. That he managed

579
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: to get the winnebago to go over the cliff without

580
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: anybody inside, and then he left her body near the wreckage,

581
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, two hundred feet from the wreckage, hoping to

582
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 1: make it look like she had been involved in a

583
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: fatal accident. And this is what they think the scenario is.

584
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: There were other scenarios floated that a rule went through,

585
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: but this was the one that the DA was going with,

586
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: and this is what we assume happened, right.

587
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with that hypothetical. I just

588
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: kind of wonder, why not just leave or put her

589
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: body in the winnebage and somehow push the winnabagel over

590
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: the embankment. You know, Yeah, that would be something that

591
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: I think would be easy versus now you're seeing potentially

592
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: at risk, you know, from somebody driving by holding a

593
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: body right right.

594
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

595
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I think either could be a possibility. I

596
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: agree that I think, just out of the practicality of it,

597
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: that she is somehow killed at the campsite with a

598
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: blow to her skull in a way that does not

599
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: fracture her skull, because it doesn't sound like any of

600
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: her other injuries unless this blood force trauma to the

601
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: abdomen caused significant internal bleeding, but it doesn't sound like

602
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: that that was found at autopsy, so kind of a

603
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: I would say there was a blow to her head

604
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: with a probably a large, somewhat softer object that did

605
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: not cause a laceration, but was able to put enough

606
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 2: force on her skull to cause the skull fracture. And

607
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: then he is able to get her out there. And

608
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: I think if he's not putting her in the winnebago,

609
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: he's making two trips. I think, you know, because he's

610
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: going to need a vehicle to get away from that location.

611
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: And rule summarized the I would say, we'll call this

612
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: four very popular opinions, which all seemed reasonable in some

613
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: weird way to me. So here's what has been floating

614
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: around the courthouse and in the newspapers. The theories that

615
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: have been kicked around. One that Ruth was distraught and

616
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: drunk and accidentally drove off the cliff without even applying

617
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: the brakes of the motor home and her body fell

618
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: out halfway down. So let me just do these four

619
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: and you can tell me what you think. Number Two,

620
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: Ruth drove deliberately off the cliff and her body was

621
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: thrown out halfway down. Three someone bludgeoned and beat her,

622
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: pushed the motor home off the cliff and flung Ruth

623
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: down after it. Or someone carried her body to make

624
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: it look like she had been in an accident, so

625
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: was able to carry her body down this embankment and

626
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: kind of place her where they wanted to place her.

627
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: This sounds to be similar to what the prosecutor was saying.

628
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: And four was the most interesting one to me. Someone

629
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: pushes the Winnebago over the cliff and then talks Ruth

630
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: into going down to help retrieve the valuables, and then

631
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: kill her right there. I mean, I don't know that

632
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: that's your look. Is the same thing I felt internally

633
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: when I heard that one. So what do you think

634
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: about these four theories? But this is what's floating around.

635
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 2: I'm really not liking them, any of them. And again,

636
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: I have to see the side of this cliff. But

637
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: somebody caring Ruth, who minimally I'm assuming is weighing one

638
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: hundred hundred and twenty pounds down the side of this

639
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: cliff and placing her body there, I don't buy that

640
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: at all. I think, you know, there'd be an assessment

641
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: if she were to be pushed off the edge, her

642
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 2: body just kind of dumped off the edge of this

643
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 2: would it have been able to tumble or slide down

644
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: to where she was at? And if so, that seems

645
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: like the most likely way that her body ended up there.

646
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: You know, the.

647
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: Ejection out of the Winnebago is an absolute possibility. The

648
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: problem that I'm I'm really struggling with is how do

649
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: you get this winnebago over the edge, which obviously it

650
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: was it went over the edge, but it's in park

651
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: with the emergency brake on.

652
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: How is that done? You know?

653
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: The only thing I can think of is you literally,

654
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: whoever has got this winnebago, drives it all the way

655
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: up to the you know, the point of no return

656
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: is able to get out, you know, puts it in

657
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: park and the emergency brake on and then just maybe

658
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: on the outside, you know, it's teetering just enough to

659
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: where now you're able to kind of, you know, give

660
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: it enough of a shove and is it possible the

661
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: jeep was used to shove it where now you have

662
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: you have a you know, the power of the jeep.

663
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: I mean, this Winnabago is just absolutely torn up. So

664
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: any contact that jeep makes, you know, in terms of

665
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: paint transfer or dense or anything to the Winnebago wouldn't

666
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: never necessarily be considered, you know, in this scenario, it's

667
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: just like all the damage to the Winnebago must have

668
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: come from the thing. And now that I'm literally thinking

669
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: out loud, now they think about it.

670
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 3: I think that's the most.

671
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: Likely way to be able to do that is you

672
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: get that Winnebago close enough to the edge and then

673
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: you just take your jeep and you slowly push it over.

674
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: And now you've got the power of.

675
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: A jeep to be able to get this huge Winnebago

676
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: over the edge while it is still in park with

677
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: the emergency break.

678
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: On and I would think you're crazy, that's too much exposure.

679
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: But this is a very rural area, logging road, middle

680
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: of nowhere, narrow, Nobody's going to be driving this at night.

681
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: No, I mean, there's always a chance somebody could drive by.

682
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: That's the risk the offender takes any anywhere they're at, right,

683
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: but the location, and they've been to this location before.

684
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: It sounds like he's got some familailiarity with this this area.

685
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: The likelihood of somebody driving by at this time of

686
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: night sounds like it would be very unlikely. I've been

687
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: out in the middle of the day on roads I

688
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: don't see anybody for hours, right, So I think it's

689
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 2: easily accomplished. And now I think about it, I'm liking

690
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 2: I don't know about was Ruth, you know, pushed over

691
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: the edge after she had been killed, or was Ruth

692
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: ejected out of the Winnebago, But I like the idea

693
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: of the jeep being used to push this much, this

694
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: large vehicle that's in park with the emergency brake on

695
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: over the edge. I think that's probably the most likely scenario.

696
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: And there's no way that the emergency brake would have

697
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: somehow slowed down the momentum of the wheels or is

698
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: it like literally gravity just pulling it down. It doesn't

699
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: matter whether there's the emergency brake on once it's in

700
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: motion going down the embankment.

701
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: So this is also now taking a look at the

702
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: structure of the Winnebago. I'm assuming this in the nineteen seventies,

703
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: and I'm envisioning a Winnebago in which the very heavy

704
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: engine is let's say in the front of the vehicle.

705
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: You park this Winnebago with the front wheels just right

706
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: up on the edge, and you've got the weight of

707
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: the Winnebago is right there in front. And now you

708
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: get behind it with a jeep and you just push,

709
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: and that will cause once you get that heavy front

710
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: of the Winnebago over the edge, now you can see

711
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 2: where it's going to teeter, and the front is going

712
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: to now go and just everything you know, the mass

713
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: is going to cause going to pull this Winnebage over

714
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: the edge. And that could potentially explain these skid marks

715
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: if those were true skid marks to where now you

716
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: have a big vehicle that's in park being pushed, you're

717
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: going to see some disturbances that look like skid marks.

718
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: Going over the edge.

719
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: If you think about the Winnebago, and I don't know

720
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: exactly what model year this Winnebago is, based on just

721
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: a quick research, it looks like the engine could be

722
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: in front and so therefore you could have this heavy,

723
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 2: heavy mass that's in front. So imagine the Winnebago being

724
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: pushed from behind by the jeep until that engine, that

725
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: heavy engine gets over the edge and now that Winnebago

726
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: could just tip and tumble. Even if the engine is

727
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: in the rear of this particular make model the Winnebago,

728
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 2: the jeep just has to push it so much further

729
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: off the edge, and then the whole thing is just

730
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: going to end up ultimately going It's just a soft

731
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: dirt edge in all likelihood where this thing went over.

732
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: So I really like the idea considering the condition of

733
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: the Winnebago, the mechanics, it's in park, the emergency brake

734
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: is on, that you use the power of this jeep

735
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: to push this large vehicle over the edge.

736
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 3: That is what makes sense to me.

737
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: Okay, I was thinking about the theory that he can

738
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: carried her down, or somebody kind of carried her down

739
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: to place her in the right spot. And it occurred

740
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: to me. Sometimes I don't think it's useful to show,

741
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, photos of the alleged killer and the victim,

742
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: but it occurred to me it could be useful with this,

743
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna show it to you. Here's a photo

744
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: of like it looks like an anniversary or there was

745
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: a champagne toast. So you see Tony on the left

746
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: and Ruth on the right. Yeah, I don't know if

747
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: their sizes are significantly different. She does not look like

748
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: a petit woman to me, and he does not look

749
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: like a large man. I don't know if it would

750
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: be that easy for him to take her down in

751
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: this precarious cliff embankment scenario that people are talking about.

752
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: What do you think though, I don't.

753
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: I don't think it'd be easy at all, you know.

754
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: And again it's you know, what does this terrain look like?

755
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: But still to carry a body I always bring up,

756
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about let's say a petite woman's

757
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: body one hundred pounds, Well, pick up one hundred pound

758
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: bag of cement. It's heavy, and now make this floppy

759
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: dead body that's still one hundred pounds it takes strength

760
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: to be able to do that. You know, this is

761
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 2: going to be hard to carry across flat land, over

762
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 2: tree trunks and through bushes and stuff like that. Let

763
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: alone to try to navigate downwards on a slope that

764
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: you yourself might fall down without seeing it. I have

765
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: to couch my opinion. I think it would be more

766
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: likely to discard the body from the top, because that's

767
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: what we see with body disposals. They're usually disposed of

768
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: in remote locations off of sides of roads that have

769
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: a steep embankment. Why because they slide down the embankment

770
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: and the offender doesn't have to do a lot of work.

771
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: I agree with what I make things harder on yourself. I

772
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: guess prosecutor says, of course motive is money, but he

773
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: is having an affair sleeves bag that he is so

774
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: add that in there too. He was right to suspect that.

775
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: Let's see, moving through the defense puts on its case. Also,

776
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: they say she drank a lot, she got into an RV.

777
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: He shouldn't have let her go, he did, she drove

778
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: off the edge. This was just a really bad accident.

779
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: By the way, Ruth knew everything that was happening with

780
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: selling off the land and signing off on things. She

781
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: wasn't bothered by it. She trusted Tony. And the biggest

782
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 1: thing that the defense flatches onto is that the prosecutor

783
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: couldn't say, and you've said this, how she died. There's

784
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: no bloody rock, they don't have a weapon. The prosecutor

785
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: just said they believed she was killed, and they couldn't

786
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: even say where. And that is what the defense is saying,

787
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: how do you know, based on scratches and a crack

788
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: skull that the accident did not cause this? And that

789
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: is the problem that the prosecutor is having. That's what

790
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: they're trying to overcome.

791
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: No for sure, And this is where my guess is,

792
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: Doctor Ray the patholous testimony could be critical in this case.

793
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: You know, first, I'm assuming he ruled.

794
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: Homicide as the manner of death from okay, So now

795
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: he has to get on the stand and he has

796
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: to justify that ruling of homicide, his observation saying, based

797
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: on his experience, that the extent of her injuries or

798
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 2: lack of is not consistent with a body having fallen

799
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: the distance it did, and that this is more consistent

800
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: with being killed blunt force trauma causing the skull fracture,

801
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: and then the body was slid down the side of

802
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: the embankment or tumbled down. But it really didn't have

803
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: like huge boulders or trees that it's bouncing off of.

804
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: And I could see where this would set up a

805
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 2: battle of experts, because another pathologist would come in and say, oh,

806
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: this is entirely consistent with her, you know, being ejected

807
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: from the Winnebago having accidentally driven it off, you know,

808
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: So it is. That is a tough thing, but I

809
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: think the pathologist's testimony probably was key in this case.

810
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: And how convincing was his testimony to the jury.

811
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's stick with that. So the defense puts

812
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: on a guy who is a physician, a well known

813
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: physician named doctor F. Warren Lovell, and he says that

814
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: he thinks the injuries to Ruth's abdomen were caused by

815
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: her pressing against the steering wheel during the impact of

816
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: the fall. She was in the vehicle, this is what

817
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: he thinks happened, and she got ejected out of it

818
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: and of course hit her head on something coming down

819
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: the embankment, and that was that The prosecutor across examines

820
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: him and says, are you saying there is no possibility

821
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: that she was murdered let's say, by having a man

822
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: hold her by the hair after she drank a lot

823
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: of alcohol and slamming her head against the rock. And

824
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: doctor Lovell said, I can't say that that didn't happen.

825
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you what I believe. Another physician got

826
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: on the stand, not for the defense, but for the

827
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: prosecutor that said, those scratches and the bruises on her

828
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: arms look like defensive wounds. To me, they do not

829
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: look like even the brush of some dead body being

830
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: rolled down the hill. So you're right, big battle of

831
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: experts here, No for sure.

832
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: And you know, I think the idea like of her

833
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: head being slammed against a hard surface like that would

834
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: likely produce a laceration. But imagine her head being slammed

835
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: against let's say the carpeted floor inside the Winnebago or on,

836
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: you know, kind of a softer dirt area where there's

837
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: significant force, maybe enough force to cause this internal skull fracture,

838
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: but it doesn't cause the splitting of the skin that

839
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 2: we see. You know, what's called the laceration. I can

840
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: see that as being a scenario, you know, And whether

841
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: or not, let's say Tony is one that is slamming

842
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: her head against something, does he recognize that he's killed her?

843
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: He's obviously planned this, you.

844
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: Know, He's in essence, has rendered her a conscious in

845
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 2: his mind, and now he has the ability to manipulate

846
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: her body in order to set up this scenario of

847
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: an accidental driving over the edge. You know, fundamentally, you know,

848
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: there's circumstances with what Tony was doing leading up to

849
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: Ruth's death that point to his interest in her being dead.

850
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 2: The accidental death policy taken out two months before is huge.

851
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 2: And then the mechanics of the Winnebago it's in park,

852
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: the emergency break is on. How does the defense explain

853
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 2: that I would want to hear from mechanical experts to say, okay,

854
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: with Winnebago tumbling down the side of this this cliff,

855
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 2: is there a way for these mechanical objects, both of

856
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: which could be you know, shifted into park and the

857
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: emergency break put on.

858
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: Is that a possibility? Is it a even a likelihood?

859
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 3: You know?

860
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: And my guess is, you know, having some mechanical background

861
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: is like, no, that just doesn't add up.

862
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: So why did he do that to keep control of

863
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: the Winnebago so that it doesn't go over the edge

864
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: before he has a chance to do everything he needs

865
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: to do. Is that why he did those two things,

866
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: setting the brake and putting it in a park.

867
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

868
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: Well, let's say he's the one and he's the one

869
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: that's driving it up to the edge.

870
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't want to be trying.

871
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: To step out of this large vehicle, you know, and

872
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 2: possibly being caught up, you know, going over the edge himself.

873
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 3: You know, he's got the jeep that can push it

874
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 3: over the edge.

875
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about some, in my opinion, some pretty

876
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: prejudicial stuff that comes up. So the prosecutor eventually submits

877
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: some evidence in the form of a transcript from that

878
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: federal trial. So there was a conspiracy. He did have

879
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: a business partner. That kind of comes into play, not

880
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: really regarding paperwork. Two violent incidents happened regarding these fraud charges. One,

881
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: he is in a car with a lumberman who owns

882
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: a bunch of land that Tony was interested in, and

883
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: Tony and the guy are talking. They're in Tony's suv.

884
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: Tony loses control of the vehicle and bails out as

885
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: it careens off the road and fell down a twenty

886
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: foot embankment before crashing into a tree with this lumberman

887
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: inside who survives and finds paperwork later on that's been

888
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: forged selling all of this stuff to Tony Fernandez. So

889
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: the prosecutors bring this in. I thought this sounded prejudicial,

890
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: but they're obviously saying this is a guy with violent

891
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: tendencies who did something very similar. So what do you

892
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: think about that?

893
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that, I mean, I can see where you draw

894
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: the conclusion where it's prejudicial. However, most certainly and evaluating

895
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: this case and looking at Tony's past, the investigators must

896
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: have run across that and they're going, Okay, he's tried

897
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: this once before, and he did this while he was

898
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: driving and bailed out. Now, why the change. Why wouldn't

899
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: he be driving the Winno Bagel and bailing out in

900
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: this scenario. Well, he learned from the last one. Bailing

901
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 2: out of a moving vehicle probably was not fun, which

902
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 2: also speaks to him putting it in park in the

903
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: emergency brake on to ensure that he doesn't, you know,

904
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: get caught up in a moving vehicle again.

905
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: Well, then he tries something else. Also coming from this

906
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: fraud trial, he had met up with another lumberman in

907
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: Canada and the guy said that they got into a

908
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: conversation about a timber deal that you know, he wanted

909
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: to buy some timberland. There he and Tony were going

910
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: to talk about making a deal, and he said that

911
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: he remembers lighting a cigarette and talking to Tony and

912
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: then everything went dark. He woke up beside a railroad

913
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: track with a horrible headache. Railroad workers took him to

914
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: a local hospital. His wife later fought you know, a

915
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: contract between her husband and Tony as well as a

916
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: receipt for forty thousand dollars, and somebody Tony we're assuming,

917
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: called an Oregon bank and said, you know I want

918
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: to get I need to get forty thousand dollars transferred

919
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: out of Bill's account into this account that he had

920
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: opened up for this deal. So he's making a deal

921
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: while this guy is unconscious in the hospital. I'm assuming

922
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: thinking that he killed him. So now he's tried to

923
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: kill two different people and it didn't work. And obviously

924
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: with Ruth, he wanted to make sure it was going

925
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: to work.

926
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's showing a pattern of behavior. I'm kind of

927
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 2: curious as to what drug he gave that second guy.

928
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, and how.

929
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 3: He administered it.

930
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: But this is all adding up, you know, there's I

931
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: think ruth ky stands alone with the circumstantial and the

932
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: physical evidence, even though there is the weakness of how

933
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: was she exactly killed? I think that her case stands alone.

934
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: But now you consider his past history, and he's basically

935
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: has done the same thing twice before. He's showing a

936
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: willingness to attempt to kill in order for financial gain,

937
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: and everything is made it's the same, it's the same pattern.

938
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: And I don't understand why he didn't go to prison

939
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: for these violent acts. I mean, it was fraud where

940
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: they got him. I guess there wasn't enough evidence. I

941
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: don't know enough about those two cases. But good lord,

942
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, this just seems like a huge amount of

943
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: horrible incidents is violence following this guy, and obviously this

944
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: was not stuff that was reported, and Ruth must have

945
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: only known about the fraud and that was it.

946
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, if he's not charged with the I don't.

947
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 2: Know if you want to call him attempt homicides for

948
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: these two other business associates. Then that's never entered into

949
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 2: the fraud trial, and that's never reported in the newspapers.

950
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: It's looking like it's strictly just financial fraud versus is. Oh,

951
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 2: he's willing to kill his business associates and take advantage

952
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: of the opening that creates in order for him to

953
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 2: have financial gain.

954
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: And I visualized this happening in twenty twenty four and

955
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: somebody on Reddit or some message board hearing about this

956
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: from somebody somebody. Even if this doesn't these two incidents

957
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,919
Speaker 1: of violence don't enter into the fraud trial, this would

958
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: have gotten out somewhere. We would have been if this

959
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: were my mom, I would have been googling this guy

960
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 1: backwards and forwards, paying some service to do background checks.

961
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: I think if this were a different era, they would

962
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: have known a lot more information and maybe Ruth would

963
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: have gotten out of this. But who knows, no.

964
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: For sure, you know, today versus nineteen seventies is an

965
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: entirely different era when it comes to being able to

966
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: gather information.

967
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 3: It's so unfortunate.

968
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 2: Well, actually, I guess I should ask you, so, what's

969
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 2: the jury find guilty?

970
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: Thank goodness.

971
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, good.

972
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: So I'll just tell you life without parole. And he

973
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: serves almost twenty years. He serves eighteen years, and he

974
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: has a heart attack and dies in prison. Okay, and

975
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: that's the end of that. He never admits any involvement.

976
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: The reality is this is a type of predator and

977
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: he's not your sexually motivated predator like the types of

978
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 2: cases that I typically go after.

979
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: But his behavior, his greed, causes.

980
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 2: Him to pursue inflicting violence on others. He's showing that

981
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: willingness to kill for his own financial gain, you know.

982
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: And in many ways, when we talk about serial killers,

983
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: and there are female serial killers, one of the primary

984
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 2: reasons females kill in a serial fashion is for financial gain, right,

985
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: And so in many ways, he has that kind of psychology.

986
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: He just happens to be a guy.

987
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: And boy, he could I gotten away with this. I'm

988
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: glad he didn't. But this is one of those cases

989
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: where you just kind of go it is the battle

990
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: of the experts, and thank goodness, they believe the right

991
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: experts well and rule. It sounds like did a great

992
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: job on this case. It was part of a compilation

993
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: of stories in that book that I mentioned. This was

994
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: a case I would not have heard of had I

995
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: not known that this was something that came up in

996
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: her book. And the purpose for a lot of us

997
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: who write about true crime, and my case historical true crime,

998
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: is to shine a light on cases that a lot

999
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: of people might not have known, and really to illuminate

1000
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: something about society or about a new forensic tool or circumstances.

1001
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 1: And again, this is from the seventies, and we just

1002
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: see this repeated over and over and over again. So

1003
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: next week we're off for a well deserved break, but

1004
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 1: I will see you here in two weeks well.

1005
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 3: As always, I'm looking forward to it.

1006
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1007
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1008
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1009
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1010
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1011
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1012
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1013
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1014
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1015
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1016
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: ary Bones.

1017
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1018
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1019
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

1020
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's

1021
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,919
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now